看似合理的解釋，其 其實會帶來很多的破綻 為什麼敬虔嘅人.同不敬虔人會生出巨人， 呢件事本身就已經唔合理!

我相信蔡牧師已經有個預設:天使是個靈。所以他環𤩊這個設定來找經文支持，但又不提其他經文去support 相反的觀點！那兩個滅所多瑪蛾摩拉的天使，他們已經有個肉身在亞伯拉罕那裡吃點東西。另外跟雅各摔跤的那位，亦有一個肉身。況且人與人交合，亦不可能生巨人，不是一個半個，而是上百上千個巨人(個個都有五米高)，這是解不通的！一個非基督徒跟一個基督徒結婚，亦不會生巨人！聖經又好淸楚記載創6:4 講到巨人在洪水後生存下來，在迦南地成為一個族。牧師的個人觀點很難令我follow！！nothing is impossible, 天使有個肉身被我們人類看見，並不是沒有可能的，更有個jj 可以生下一代,不能否定這個可能性。

以諾書是答案的開端

🌌,我一直想信主。

最好的求証方法是問問有猶太背景的学者或拉比，創世紀是摩西寫的，他們以色列人的祖先已經有答案留給後代何為sons of God ，在創6𥚃墮落天使是唯一的答案，沒有別的所指

Thank you for your concise explanation 🎀

@equiptoserve

Жыл бұрын

You are so welcome!

可惜不能解釋後面為何塞特正統的男性後代和該隱的女性後代會生出偉人／巨人。 而且幫助羅得的天使明顯有人的形象，以至其他人誤以為他們是男性而想有進一步的親近。

人不是都能合理地把全本聖經解釋得清清楚楚！除非有上主的啟示和開啟。

為何一定要從這兩個選擇中硬選一個作為解釋, 不明就是不明, 無為要硬選為合理。而且依這兩個解釋, 兩個都不合理。請讀者們自醒, 牧師也好, 博士也好, 也不過是人一個, 也必有錯誤的地方, 我們不應不加思考便盲從接收。

蔡牧師，我自己一直都很喜歡你的頻道。但今次我想提出我自己的看法。我認爲“神的兒子”應該是指“墮落天使”的。 創 世 紀 6:1-13 說得很表面.雖然我自己一向都喜歡用舊約學習希伯來原文來研讀聖經的. 我看到文獻"以諾書一書 6-10章有很詳細的描述. 就是200個天使(守望者)與人的女兒交合,生出巨人,形容為帶肉身邪靈. 天使也教曉了人們的各方面的知識,武器,星座學,邪術,…等等 由於巨人食盡了人的土產,轉而吃地上的動物,飛鳥,及出現了人吃人的局面. 哭泣的靈魂到了上帝那裏,因而導致挪亞洪水. 而這些墮落天使也被暫時關在無底坑裏等候末日的審判. 新約中的其他經文也有相關的描述. 彼 得 後 書 2: 4-5 就是天使犯了罪，　神也沒有寬容，曾把他們丟在地獄，交在黑暗坑中，等候審判； 神也沒有寬容上古的世代，曾叫洪水臨到那不敬虔的世代，卻保護了傳義道的挪亞一家八口； 猶 大 書 6-7 又有不守本位、離開自己住處的天使，主用鎖鏈把他們永遠拘留在黑暗裡，等候大日的審判。 又如所多瑪、蛾摩拉和周圍城邑的人，也照他們一味的行淫，隨從逆性的情慾，就受永火的刑罰，作為鑒戒。 猶 大 書 14 亞當的七世孫以諾曾預言這些人說：“看哪，主帶著他的千萬聖者降臨， 耶穌自己也有引用以諾書. 馬 太 福 音 25:31-32 當人子在他榮耀裡，同著眾天使降臨的時候，要坐在他榮耀的寶座上。 萬民都要聚集在他面前。他要把他們分別出來，好像牧羊的分別綿羊山羊一般； 以諾書1:9 "看哪，他帶著他的千萬聖者降臨， 要在眾人身上施行審判。他要消誠惡人，並要按各人所行的斥責眾人，他要審判罪人和惡人所犯的罪。" 以諾書不被猶太人納入猶太經典是因爲它有彌賽亞耶穌的預言. 以諾書於五世紀從正典中被剔除的原因是當時教父奧古斯丁認爲它說得太多天使,為免讓人被引誘去拜天使而把它剔除的.

@fongwinling

Жыл бұрын

well said, 非常同意, 而且聖經也很多處提到巨人, "200個天使(守望者)與人的女兒交合,生出巨人,形容為帶肉身邪靈. 天使也教曉了人們的各方面的知識,武器,星座學,邪術,…等等 由於巨人食盡了人的土產,轉而吃地上的動物,飛鳥,及出現了人吃人的局面"

@Varti_Products

2 ай бұрын

No the book of Enoch is not a reliable source which is full of contradiction, the book claimed that Enoch is the Messiah, and God will not allow angel have sex with humans!

@bassaniolai234

2 ай бұрын

@@Varti_Products Despite the source of the Book of Enoch is uncertain, it was very popular and was widely accepted during Jesus’ age. The New Testament authors such as the Epistle of Jude directly quoted from the 1 Enroch 1:9. “Jude 14-15 says: “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’” Also the 2 Peter 2:4 also quoted the Book Enoch, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;” God does not allow cf. I Enoch 9:8 “9.8 And they went into the daughters of men together, lay with those women, became unclean, and revealed to them these sins.” In addition, in Matthew 25:31-32, Jesus says “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.” Your wording, “he book claimed that Enoch is the Messiah”. I think you are based on the I Enoch 71:14 “And that Angel, came to me, and greeted me with his voice, and said to me: “You are the son of man who was born to righteousness and righteousness remains over you and the righteousness of the Head of Days, will not leave you.” But you also have to look back to the 70:1 “And it came to pass, after this, that while he was living his name was lifted from those who dwell upon the dry ground to the presence of that Son of Man, and to the presence of the Lord of Spirits.” Enoch was firstly uplifted to the Son of man and God. For Enoch’s Ascension: • The Book of Enoch describes Enoch’s extraordinary journey. He is taken up to heaven, where he encounters celestial beings, angels, and divine revelations. • Enoch’s ascension is a pivotal event in the narrative. It transforms him into a heavenly figure, distinct from other mortals. • The phrase “Enoch was uplifted before the Son of Man and God” emphasizes Enoch’s exalted status. He is elevated above ordinary human existence and stands in the presence of both the “Son of Man” (a heavenly figure) and God Himself. For Symbolism and Messianic Expectations • The use of the title “Son of Man” for Enoch reflects Messianic expectations prevalent in Second Temple Judaism. • Enoch’s role as a revealer of divine secrets aligns with the Messianic figure’s expected role in ushering in God’s kingdom, judging the world, and bringing about redemption. • By calling Enoch the “Son of Man,” the text highlights his unique position as a bridge between heaven and earth, much like the eschatological figure described in other Jewish texts.

@bassaniolai234

2 ай бұрын

@@Varti_Products Despite the source of the Book of Enoch is uncertain, it was very popular and was widely accepted during Jesus’ age. The New Testament authors such as the Epistle of Jude directly quoted from the 1 Enroch 1:9. “Jude 14-15 says: “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’” Also the 2 Peter 2:4 also quoted the Book Enoch, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;” God does not allow cf. I Enoch 9:8 “9.8 And they went into the daughters of men together, lay with those women, became unclean, and revealed to them these sins.” In addition, in Matthew 25:31-32, Jesus says “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.” Your wording, “he book claimed that Enoch is the Messiah”. I think you are based on the I Enoch 71:14 “And that Angel, came to me, and greeted me with his voice, and said to me: “You are the son of man who was born to righteousness and righteousness remains over you and the righteousness of the Head of Days, will not leave you.” But you also have to look back to the 70:1 “And it came to pass, after this, that while he was living his name was lifted from those who dwell upon the dry ground to the presence of that Son of Man, and to the presence of the Lord of Spirits.” Enoch was firstly uplifted to the Son of man and God. For Enoch’s Ascension: • The Book of Enoch describes Enoch’s extraordinary journey. He is taken up to heaven, where he encounters celestial beings, angels, and divine revelations. • Enoch’s ascension is a pivotal event in the narrative. It transforms him into a heavenly figure, distinct from other mortals. • The phrase “Enoch was uplifted before the Son of Man and God” emphasizes Enoch’s exalted status. He is elevated above ordinary human existence and stands in the presence of both the “Son of Man” (a heavenly figure) and God Himself. For Symbolism and Messianic Expectations • The use of the title “Son of Man” for Enoch reflects Messianic expectations prevalent in Second Temple Judaism. • Enoch’s role as a revealer of divine secrets aligns with the Messianic figure’s expected role in ushering in God’s kingdom, judging the world, and bringing about redemption. • By calling Enoch the “Son of Man,” the text highlights his unique position as a bridge between heaven and earth, much like the eschatological figure described in other Jewish texts. In addition, the Book of Enoch provides inspiration and key for us to understand the Old and New Testament, it has clearly mentioned the Angel took human’s daughters and bore the Nephium as evil beings, teach various knowledge including dark and wicked knowledge and skill to human, and caused the big flood in Noah’s age. It also prophesized the coming the of Jesus Christ ( הַמָּשִׁ֛יחַ ישוע Yeshua Hamashiach, I suggest this name is more proper for us to call upon)’s coming, salvation and return. The parable for uneven number of days for ten weeks to prophesized the world’s creation (Genesis) to the regime of new heaven and new earth. The II Enoch Chapter 24~32 also mentions in details for 7 days of God’s creation including Satan and his fallen angels were casted out from heaven on the first day. I strongly feel that the write of the Book of Enoch was strongly inspired by God, and it is unlikely to be a normal human’s inspiration can make such a great book. It provides invaluable inspiration and knowledge that we should no miss off! Shalom and God blessed!

@bassaniolai234

2 ай бұрын

@Varti_Products - Despite the source of the Book of Enoch is uncertain, it was very popular and was widely accepted during Jesus’ age. The New Testament authors such as the Epistle of Jude directly quoted from the 1 Enroch 1:9. “Jude 14-15 says: “Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.’” Also the 2 Peter 2:4 also quoted the Book Enoch, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;” God does not allow cf. I Enoch 9:8 “9.8 And they went into the daughters of men together, lay with those women, became unclean, and revealed to them these sins.” In addition, in Matthew 25:31-32, Jesus says “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.” Your wording, “he book claimed that Enoch is the Messiah”. I think you are based on the I Enoch 71:14 “And that Angel, came to me, and greeted me with his voice, and said to me: “You are the son of man who was born to righteousness and righteousness remains over you and the righteousness of the Head of Days, will not leave you.” But you also have to look back to the 70:1 “And it came to pass, after this, that while he was living his name was lifted from those who dwell upon the dry ground to the presence of that Son of Man, and to the presence of the Lord of Spirits.” Enoch was firstly uplifted to the Son of man and God. For Enoch’s Ascension: • The Book of Enoch describes Enoch’s extraordinary journey. He is taken up to heaven, where he encounters celestial beings, angels, and divine revelations. • Enoch’s ascension is a pivotal event in the narrative. It transforms him into a heavenly figure, distinct from other mortals. • The phrase “Enoch was uplifted before the Son of Man and God” emphasizes Enoch’s exalted status. He is elevated above ordinary human existence and stands in the presence of both the “Son of Man” (a heavenly figure) and God Himself. For Symbolism and Messianic Expectations • The use of the title “Son of Man” for Enoch reflects Messianic expectations prevalent in Second Temple Judaism. • Enoch’s role as a revealer of divine secrets aligns with the Messianic figure’s expected role in ushering in God’s kingdom, judging the world, and bringing about redemption. • By calling Enoch the “Son of Man,” the text highlights his unique position as a bridge between heaven and earth, much like the eschatological figure described in other Jewish texts. In addition, the Book of Enoch provides inspiration and key for us to understand the Old and New Testament, it has clearly mentioned the Angel took human’s daughters and bore the Nephium as evil beings, teach various knowledge including dark and wicked knowledge and skill to human, and caused the big flood in Noah’s age. It also prophesized the coming the of Jesus Christ ( הַמָּשִׁ֛יחַ ישוע Yeshua Hamashiach, I suggest this name is more proper for us to call upon)’s coming, salvation and return. The parable for uneven number of days for ten weeks to prophesized the world’s creation (Genesis) to the regime of new heaven and new earth. The II Enoch Chapter 24~32 also mentions in details for 7 days of God’s creation including Satan and his fallen angels were casted out from heaven on the first day. I strongly feel that the write of the Book of Enoch was strongly inspired by God, and it is unlikely to be a normal human’s inspiration can make such a great book. It provides invaluable inspiration and knowledge that we should no miss off! Shalom and God blessed!

我不认同神的儿子是人,他必然也必须是天使！！因为没有人类可以生出巨人来。但天使有强大的力量...可能当中的力量转换去怪力(巨人)通过附身在男子身上与女子交合而成

天上的使者不嫁不娶，不等于堕落的天使不去与人类女子结合，败坏人类纯正的血脉。况且信与不信的人怎能生出二十四指的巨人或半人半兽的上古精怪?

慾練神功😢😊

🍓 謝謝牧師。 主耶穌也是 靈和人的女子 所出的，就是，神的靈和馬利亞，所以，說明了，靈和人的女子，是可以感孕，產生孩子的。

不好意思，小的有解不通的地方: 聖經是否有那裡提及塞特的後代不能與該隱的後代通婚？ 為何該隱的女子孫就貌美，塞特的女子孫就沒有貌美可揀？ 塞特和該隱都是阿當的後代，大家的身體結構都是一樣，為何他們的後代通婚能生下“英武有名的人”？ 那怎麼解釋“偉人”(Nephilim)，他們是普通人定巨人？ 如果該隱的所有後代都必定與他的祖先一樣是壞人，那麼最初上帝為何不殺該隱、又容許他生養衆多？ 在阿當犯罪離開伊甸園後，人就不能面對面的跟上帝生活，只有少數的聖經人物(如以諾)能直接面對上帝，那麼約伯記的時代，有誰人能夠從地上走到天上以“神的衆子”身份侍立在耶和華面前？ 大洪水後，只有挪亞一家存活，他們都是正宗塞特的後代，為何不再稱為“神的兒子們”？壽命也要減至一百二十歲？ 請教請教🙇 by 問題中年

@iiiiunique

Жыл бұрын

我也想知。希望有高人可以講解一下？

@Varti_Products

2 ай бұрын

Free will.

蔡牧師說得清楚、合理! THX!

當上帝和祂的諸軍把二層天的邪灵惡魔-趕到地上。 啟12:7-8 在 天 上 就 有 了 爭 戰 。 米 迦 勒 同 他 的 使 者 與 龍 爭 戰 ， 龍 也 同 他 的 使 者 去 爭 戰 ， 並 沒 有 得 勝 ， 天 上 再 --沒 有 牠 們 的 地 方 。 如還有聖徒被留在地上，鬼魔便與世人和餘民為鄰了。🥲

墮落的天使是灵体，也可與地上人的女子結合生子，但他們的後代是如歌利亞的巨人，利非定的巨人，手和腳各有6 隻手指和6 隻腳指。是世世代代與神的子民為敵的。

還有些少補充，這討論主要基於約3：6去否定天使能生人。但約3：6講話的耶穌本人就是從聖靈感孕，不是從血氣而生的。我認為應該用約3章的場景去解讀3：6，不能單以一節作結論。那個場景耶穌在解釋人要重生才能進天國，我們不能只靠肉身須要靠聖靈。所以解讀為“人類靠肉身生不出靈去進入天國”較穩妥。則是“低階”的肉身不能自動升級為“高階”的靈。但如耶穌和天使作為“高階”的靈，可以有些“特別方式”(如聖靈感孕、耶穌復活後也有肉體給門徒摸釘痕)得到“低階”的肉體在地上行動。這種“特別方式”不應該是天使可以隨己意而使用的。 此討論只在於想更明白聖經，請不要介意。

這是比較傳統的說法，我以前較相信。但現在傾向相信是天使。 1.如果單單任意娶女子為妻就滅世。以色列諸王所犯的不比洪水前所犯差。連以掃也娶迦南女子。 2.路加福音8節記載,鬼央求耶穌不要趕牠們到無底坑裡，反而附在豬的身上，這群鬼是否墮落天使，也有不同看法。會否暗示牠們本有身體或渴望有身體。而且天使也有經文記載可化身像人一樣，甚至吃東西。 3.而Nephilim （拿非利人-偉人）Seraphim（撒拉弗）Cherubim（基路伯）同字根。 所以現在較偏向眾子們與天使有脫不開關係。 純粹討論！

蔡牧师您好，我想知道创世纪第6章第4节说的伟人是些什么人？他们跟上古英武有名的人有关系吗？该隐的后代跟塞特的后代结合为什么会生出英武有名的人？请解释一下，谢谢！

@yatwaisum1432

Жыл бұрын

牧師是否假先知，看似合理的解釋，充滿破绽，為什麼人和人类结合會產生巨人？？？

我諗緊亞當同夏娃係未犯罪之前有冇兒女呢?冇係難題，有，去那裏。能聽牧師指教嗎？

點解唔諗吓認命😢

刚接触圣经，请问神的儿子不是指耶稣吗？

請問耶蘇不是神的獨生子嗎？為什麼神又有神的兒子們？

@lamallan3852

Жыл бұрын

耶穌基督是神的獨生子，但舊約未有耶穌/基督出現時，聖經多次以"兒子們"借代其創造物eg人/天使，只是這個"兒子"並不等於基督，亦不比基督尊貴

@iiiiunique

Жыл бұрын

@@lamallan3852 thank you

為甚麼不是神的兒子 和神的女兒 也不是人的男子和人的女子

比較：耶穌是從聖灵和馬利亞的卵子結合而生。當然神把亞當分別為聖，也能把馬利亞的卵子也分別為聖，結合成為無罪的人子耶穌。

蔡牧師，墮落的墮字，𣎴是讀懶惰的惰嗎？

天使是靈體/肉身。是中性。不是男又不是女。

天使不是神的儿子。人才是神的儿子。

😇🐇🤡

不合理，聖經說（the sons of God，神子）創6:2和人的女子結合，不是天使也不是人，而且天使不是神的兒子。神亦沒有稱亞當是神的兒子，祂稱亞當為（man，人）創5：2。神祇在耶穌受洗後稱耶穌是（This is my son，這是我的愛子 太3:17。

其實對於這個解釋有些牽強，如果是塞特後裔的話，怎麼還要特地的分別一邊是神的兒子們和人的女子們呢？大可直接的說神的兒子和女子或者人的兒子和女子，不需要分得一邊是神的一邊是人的，因為兩性都是人類哦如果是按著您的解釋是塞特後裔的話🤭🤭🤭 然後如果神的兒子是人類的話怎麼還特地的強調說生出英武有名的人，然後那時候又有瑋人在地上～如果按照塞特這個解釋的話感覺很牽強，如果雙邊都是普通人類的話應該不會這麼複雜吧？😬😬😬🤣🤣😂

天使不是神的儿子。人才是神的儿子。

天使不是神的儿子。人才是神的儿子。

天使不是神的儿子。人才是神的儿子。

天使不是神的儿子。人才是神的儿子。

@FrankHo-td5ih

Жыл бұрын

請參考約伯記2章1節，舊約聖經有用「神的兒子」去描繪天使