It should be noted that the reason TOS Trek was so successful was because of the barely hidden parallels to the 60's political and social climate. The Vulcan was a stand in for any race that was not liked and it was no coincidence that McCoy who made all those remarks was a Southerner. This was all deliberately done to make people reflect upon they're own opinions on race, religion and politics in an effort to change things for the better.

@AstraIVagabond

4 жыл бұрын

So it's not really even a flaw in the series - just an element that didn't age well?

@Koharduvon

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely!

@Koharduvon

Жыл бұрын

@@AstraIVagabond it's an aligory. It's difficult to critique something that can't be mentioned 😕 Also, didn't age well? I always thought McCoy was racist, he's also a technophobe and hypochondriac, Alcoholic, womanizer. Just because a character is awful doesn't mean there isn't a point to be made through narrative. He's also an extremely talented doctor and good friend, in spite of his racism. Not that I'm prone to vouching for racists mind you.

@chicken29843

Жыл бұрын

The same thing in modern media is referred to as woke leftist propaganda. But I imagine history will view woke leftist propaganda much more like how you are describing this.

@nosuchthing8

Жыл бұрын

Yes, but not just race. Remember it was clear that spock was basically superior to humans by most metrics: strength, intellect, etc. But not charisma. Because he was an outsider. Perhaps spock represented many people's, non protestant, non blue eyed, on and on.

On the use of Borg in Voyager: "Hey, if seeing a little bit of shark in Jaws was cool, wouldn't seeing a lot more shark be cooler?" Steven Speilberg: "No"

@gearheadlydia

4 жыл бұрын

I feel like the Borg in Voyager might have worked better as just this imposing wall of cubes that tells the crew (and the viewers) "oh shit, time to leave". No fighting them, no tricking them, just running.

@lectornox

3 жыл бұрын

Well you should know that Steven Spielberg did want to show more of the shark but they were filming in the open ocean and the Jaws props kept sinking!

@neuralmute

Жыл бұрын

Also: Ridley Scott in Alien. NOT seeing the entire creature was what made it so damn scary.

It's ok to criticize something you love. My god. What a crazy concept!

@rcabletn

5 жыл бұрын

Then, my wife must be crazy !

@youwayo

4 жыл бұрын

So Star Wars fans?

@zackb5636

4 жыл бұрын

No one can top this comment. You get McCoy.

@hammadsheikh6032

3 жыл бұрын

I think about 40 % of Americans disagree with you on that one :-(

McCoy is racist but that doesn't mean he's not a hero. I think his relationship with Spock is one of overcoming his prejudice.

@Dorian_sapiens

5 жыл бұрын

Given that SJWs invented _Star Trek,_ I was wondering whether the writers were using McCoy's relationship with Spock to comment on, rather than to indulge in, racism. I didn't watch TOS, so I'm asking, not asserting. But that did occur to me when that comment response came up.

@brucebartup6161

5 жыл бұрын

Like Tom Sawyer in Mark Twain? Problematic?

@Tareltonlives

5 жыл бұрын

Dorian, that is probably the case. Spock acts as a foil for the humans-he represents minorities (specifically mixed heritage minorities). Even while burdened by 60s conventions, Trek is aimed at a progressive, optimistic message.

@wellingtonsmith4998

5 жыл бұрын

I remember the controversy of the line in Star Trek IV when Bones says "I knew that pointy eared son-of-a-bitch would get back at me" cuz it never made it into the final cut. so yes, Dr McCoy is racist, and I still cringe when watching some TOS

@jamesmartin9401

5 жыл бұрын

Well, and that's the point. It's a lot like Archie Bunker. You watch him get somewhat, slowly, grudgingly better. You know it'll never be 100%, but he's got some growth. Spock and McCoy are very much Legolas and Gimli.

I always thought that McCoy's racist lines were deliberate, and Spock's reaction was meant to parallel minorities' reaction to white peeps. This WAS when a great man - who happened to be black, i.e. MLK - is charitably referred to as "articulate". So, in a weird way, Spock is the typical black guy dealing with this shit. His "logic" doesn't allow him to protest that treatment, whereas threats of violence kept the average black guy from protesting. The more I think on this, the deeper it goes. Huh. Need to collate my thoughts on this.

@jamesmurray8558

Жыл бұрын

I saided something about this in school I was razed about it. Gilligan is the perfect example.

"It's the writers making a choice." Nailed it, I wish more people really understood this.

@Mega-Brick

4 жыл бұрын

Most people realize it, but don't like their choice. The idea of writers contradicting previously-established information isn't exactly great, and we'd like to think that by taking up the mantle you have an obligation to uphold what came before. Otherwise, what's the point?

@ErickC

11 ай бұрын

@@Mega-Brick : the point is to tell a good story, and sometimes writers paint themselves into a corner when they establish "canon." Such as that time when they decided that warp drive was bad so everyone should limit their speed - a point that is never brought up again because Star Trek without warp drive is stupid.

@RichardLewisCaldwell

6 ай бұрын

Yeah, but if you're watching a show with a buddy and you each predict a different ending or twist, and the show turns out like your buddy predicted, are you (quite appropriately) proud because you figured out a better ending than the professionals who wrote the script? (he asks from the future)

RE: Voyager should encounter the Borg because the Borg control territory in the Delta Quadrant: Like, three episodes into entering Borg space, in the episode "The Gift", Kes magically teleports Voyager closer to home and clear of Borg space. So they actually wrote *into the story* that Voyager had already bypassed Borg space, but then continued to have them encounter the Borg multiple times per season.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

I have a hard time blaming them when every single hostile alien concept they created fizzled out within a few episodes.

@LouieWebb560

5 жыл бұрын

Mega Zeta Exactly, Like even the Krenim who only had a single two-parter had much more of an impact than The Kazon or the Hirogen or the Vidiians. And i guess another reason to keep the borg in the show was to be able to give 7 of 9 more A-stories

I'm pretty sure that a solid 50% of KZread commenters never make it past the first 30 seconds of a video. Probably many of those just comment the first thing that comes to their head when they read the title or look at the words on the thumbnail.

@SeanMichaelWesley

3 жыл бұрын

I agree with you, completely. Most people are low-information troglodytes.

@bradleyj.fortner2203

2 жыл бұрын

I've certainly commented on a video's title before watching it. I think everyone's done that.

star trek 6 had some INCREDIBLY rascist stuff on there towards the klingons. so much so that nichelle nichols refused to say a line or two. brock peters almost didnt say his spiel during the admirals meeting cause it was so rascist. he went through with it cause his char was a villain this time around.

RE: Voyager having to encounter the Borg. Yes, it was established that the Borg were based in the Delta quadrant, but the actual extent of territory that the Borg control is never established prior to Voyager. And, uh, space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. And 3-dimensional. Going *around* Borg space would always have been an option, if the writers wanted to avoid the Borg.

@IngrainedReason

5 жыл бұрын

Chan.JENI Agreed. The Delta Quadrant is 1/4 of the Galaxy. Plus, even passing through Borg space they could easily avoid coming within light uears of Borg planets or ships.

@simonwinn8757

5 жыл бұрын

Borg space was so big, that before Kes telekenetic shot them across it, they were looking at around 10 years of travel.

@xen1313

5 жыл бұрын

The issue is, they were plotting a direct course home. Only diverting for supplies and anomalies (they were a Fed. Recon vessel after all...) Going around would have increased the amount of distance to travel, thus also increasing the amount of time it takes to get home proportional to the added length of the detour. Which is why they were looking for wormholes all the time. To cut the distance down. While yes, technically they could have flown around Borg space, but it may have added decades to their voyage. That means, Tuvok, or some other longevity Alien race, that Voyager took on as crew, would be in command by the time they get to Earth, as Janeway and other older members of the crew, die off due to age. Or, once the original crew get's in to their upper 70's, they decide to find a place along the way to rest their bones. What if the detour leads them into reason the Borg territory has not advanced further and that force destroys Voyager. Now, I'm not a Voyager fan by any means. But, it at least makes sense for the Borg to be relevant and expected. Borg have Transwarp, vast distances are nothing to them. Their limitation is in enemies like Species 8472 to basically define the edges of Borg Space. True enemies of the Borg, would be ones that can actively resist assimilation.

@PyrokineticFire1

5 жыл бұрын

@@xen1313 all those factors except a vague strength description of the borg in the quadrant were made up for voyager. If the writers/production didn't want to use the borg as much, then there would've been a way around that didn't require rerouting much. The borg being "in the way" happened as an excuse to use them as antagonists

@Teampegleg

5 жыл бұрын

Space maybe 3D but the milky way galaxy is very flat in comparison to the diameter, so I can easily imagine that most civilizations can control traffic above and below the galactic plane.

Re: Picard broken by Torture and it never being mentioned again. It just shows how good a therapist Troi is. Take that fans who say Deanna never did anything of consequence on TNG! Lack of long term consequences from grueling mental health issues was not because writers were resetting the status quo. Instead, I like to think it was because of a dedicated mental health professional putting in the hard work between episodes. She kept Picard from showing any effects from his Borg assimilation for 6 years and even then he only has his break-down when he is away from his counselor.

@jeremyewing7180

5 жыл бұрын

In the same vein, shout-out to Neelix, who's incomparable morale-officer work between the episodes "Threshold" and "Meld," kept Tom Paris and Captain Janeway from having a complete mental breakdown.

@scaper8

5 жыл бұрын

@@jeremyewing7180 I actually quite like those ideas. They put a really good spin to the two of them! :-)

@Lilitha11

5 жыл бұрын

It would be nice if they actually showed that more clearly on screen. That is a perfectly plausible explanation, and makes a lot of sense, but it isn't really backed up by the show because they never go into the details of it.

@Vipre-

5 жыл бұрын

Don't forget the episode after BoBW where he breaks down during his visit home, or his initial reactions to Hugh. BoBW clearly had a lasting impact on Picard.

@daddyosink4413

5 жыл бұрын

Space Prozac....

5:54 - Hah-hah! I just got a mental image of Spock and McCoy as the Devil and Angel on Kirk's shoulders! The only question is which is which?

@Krystalmyth

5 жыл бұрын

With those pointy ears? I think it's obvious.. ...

@KingoftheJuice18

4 жыл бұрын

@@davidwuhrer6704 In "The Omega Glory" the rogue Starfleet captain tries to convince the inhabitants that Kirk and Spock are evil because Spock resembles illustrations of Satan.

Wow, Picard went to therapy once each for Borg assimilation and Cardassian torture and he was all better! As a person who suffers from PTSD, clearly I have been going to the wrong therapists all these years. It's only supposed to take one session to fix? Damn, I need to file a complaint or something...

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

It's almost impossible to explain how much of a step forward that was for the franchise, though. I mean, compare the ending of "Requiem for Methuselah" to the episode "Family".

@neuralmute

Жыл бұрын

Seriously! I want 24th c. therapy techniques now!

I like the progression we get from Spock to Tuvok. With Tuvok's character you can actually see how much humans expecting him to act human really bothers him. You can see that he has a great friendship with Janeway and I think part of that is because she is one of the few who doesn't constantly ask him why he has to be so logical all the time. In the original series I think Kirk and crew were all insensitive to Spock at some point or other during their voyage, and the lesson of the day was often how emotion and intuition trumps logic. It really shows how much our views as a society have changed over the years. Our views on diversity went from being slightly shallow (while progressive at the time) to being slightly more deep and nuanced. Sometimes logic wins the day, sometimes emotion, but having all different kinds on your crew is the real winner because you are prepared for anything. :)

@paulhammond6978

Жыл бұрын

I think this is a great point. The 90s show showed Janeway being respectful of Tuvok's species and culture, and not expecting him to "be more human". The 60s Trek, even beyond McCoy talking about Spock's pointy ears and green blood, had many characters expressing their frustration that Spock couldn't act more human from time to time.

@SuperMrDeadpool

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, unlike Neelix, who arrogantly treated Tuvok's logic based thinking as a project to be "fixed".

Some of my best friends are Vulcans

About Spock calling out McCoy's racism: In "All Our Yesterdays" he does exactly that -- he grabs McCoy, forces him up against the wall and hisses, "I don't like that! I don't think I ever did. And now I'm sure!"

ironically, originally DeForest Kelly was supposed to play Spock, so he wasn't xenophobic, he was just jealous HE didn't have the pointy ears

Your comments about Dr. McCoy's racism towards Spock made me think about two in-universe examples of what we can easily describe as racism. One is in "Encounter at Farpoint" where Data is taken aback (or about as close to aback as an emotionless android can be taken) by McCoy's comment that his being an android was almost as bad as being a Vulcan. Data responds with, "I thought it was generally accepted sir, that Vulcans are an advanced and most honorable race." This implies that Data thought that Dr. McCoy's words were racist. kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZIx-mcahn8ncmLw.html In DS9's "The Die is Cast" (at least I think that was the episode) Garak makes a comment about Enabran Tain's "pointy-eared friends." Tain smiles and compliments Garak on how clever he is making an ethnic slur in front of his Romulan allies forcing him to call him out for it and thus proving that the Obsidian Order is working with the Romulans. McCoy has made references at least a couple of references to Spock's pointy ears and we know from DS9 that this is considered to be an ethnic slur (i.e. a form of racism) almost 100 years after McCoy and Spock are serving on the Enterprise.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

Interesting tidbit: the bigoted attitude that Pulaski shows toward Data in _Next Generation_ was originally part of Riker's character, according to the series bible. You can still see that spin on things in certain scripts sold very early in the show's production, such as "The Royale", a season-two episode from a script written and sold much earlier.

One Jewish dude playing the Captain, one Jewish dude playing the half-Vulcan. Yeah, McCoy is racist to Spock but he's not racist to other aliens. And he's certainly not racist to the non-white humans. And for a Southern man in the 60's, that was huge to see on the screen.

@The214thRabidFangirl

5 жыл бұрын

@@luv4ever101 I don't agree with your assessment that most racist people are only racist against one other demographic. What I've seen of racism people who are racist are racist against anyone who isn't like them, and find ways to belittle people who are like them, but disagree with them.

@Shakespeare1612

5 жыл бұрын

I would say that he must have been a little racists towards the King-ons. How else could he get to near the end of his career as a space doctor (Star Trek 6, The Undiscovered Country) and still not even know Kling-on anatomy? Professionally, it seems that he was a lot more caring towards Vulcans, since he knew Spock and his father's anatomy well enough to perform open heart surgery on his father, even with a space battle raging just outside the ship. (TOS: "Journey to Babel").

@mandolinman2006

5 жыл бұрын

@@Shakespeare1612 Easy. First, they were mortal enemies for the majority of his career, so there probably wasn't many opportunities to study their anatomy. The second is, there were genetic testing done, hence the prominent markings on their foreheads.

@vickas54

5 жыл бұрын

I think McCoy is racist, and it may have been on purpose, to be relatable to racist white folks too. It may have even been a good idea in that way, at least in the 60s, especially since they show the growth of the character and the _...relatively..._ good relationship he had with Spock. Today, I should hope we don't need to relearn this lesson, but it does seem like some are still stuck in the 50s.

@TheKagedd

5 жыл бұрын

I hear you, but racist to one group or multiple groups of people is still racist nonetheless right? In addition, growing up with southern racist white men in the 60s, shows me these attitudes can continue into things that you don’t even recognize.

"Hey man the 2260s were a different time we can't judge the pas... I mean future, or something!"

*canon Random person who wrote a comment some time ago. “Cannon” is a big gun. “Canon” is what you mean

I like to think "Direct Contradiction" comment guy finished watching this video and got mad saying "Well which wast it?!? Was it an accident or a joke!?" XD

Hey here's a good idea for a Trek Actually - How many times did Spock "discover" energy lifeforms for the first time ever? because every time he says "Its a completely new form of life" everyone seems to take his word on that.

Picard's abduction and assimilation by the Borg DOES have lasting effects on Picard and others around him. Look at subsequent episodes involving him where either the Borg show up or someone who suffered a loss at the hands of the Borg challenge him, nevermind the entirety of First Contact. Or how after Inner Light, you repeatedly see Picard playing that flute in various episodes. Let us not forget the lasting consequences (both good and bad) in dealing with the Klingon Empire, especially with regards to Worf and his family (Khelar, Alexander, Kern, Worf's father), The High Counsel, The Chancelor, the Khittomer Massacre, the entire Duras family... Just sayin...

I'm with you on the "only being able to remember trivial information" thing. I can't remember my own mother's birthday without some kind of reminder, but the other day I started humming the theme to American Gladiators, a show I hadn't seen in maybe twenty years.

I'm super stoked that you answered my comment. Thanks a bunch. :D

*Comment that completely misses the point and repeats something Steve said in the video so she can be in the next mailbag* Though in response to the final comment/criticism, I'd argue Voyager DID invent the Borg Queen. That is to say their version of it. The Queen comes off as a sort of Avatar of the Collective, the very reason the producers used her in the movie in the first place. Something that can easier interact with the world, perhaps with the all-important role of tie-breaker if a logic loop can't be talked to death internally, perhaps some sort of focuing iris for the Collective's thoughts when they decide on a plan and need some feedback on the ground from individual perspective. Voyager's Borg Queen, is literally a queen, with her dumb throne room and her stupid bottomless pits and her molecetron rays. She frequently can't read drones minds, frequently gives orders countermanding drones which implies they dont share a will, and frequently goes on megalomaniac rants and murders her own people for the hell of it. So you know, the perfect mirror for Janeway.

@DrewLSsix

5 жыл бұрын

I think the Queen can be read as a breakdown within the collective. I commented that Locutus him self broke the absolute collectivist ideal of the Borg early on, he was an apparently unique drone that maintained some autonomy in his role as.... war chief? Negotiator? What if that concept lead to the creation of a queen to be used as you suggest to break ties or allow easier communication. But in her position as a unique individual and with overriding authority within the collective she was in a position to unsettle the entire thing. In first contact she is playing the role of unconventional tactician and local face of the Borg. By Voyager things have degraded to the point that she has become a cancerous cell in the collective, the rest working to excise her. Thus leading to her apparent spotty control. Its not like we didnt see similar breakdowns happen on a smaller scale already, I didnt love the Borg in VGR but I have been wanting a different treatment for them for many many years! I actually hoped the rogue colony of Hues would play a part in VGR or some other trek series. Some sort of alliance, wouldn't it be just crazy to see fully fledged Borg crew? What else could test Federation values more than being asked to accept a Borg world and borg "people" freely roaming fed space?

@scaper8

5 жыл бұрын

MrBiggrim DrewLSsix Those are actually some really cool possible interpretations that I'd never considered. I really wish _Voyager_ had gone with them, that would have really made thinks interesting.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

That _greatly_ oversells the sophistication of the character in _First Contact._ For the most part, she's simply the sci-fi version of a vamp, with vast chunks of her lines & screen time dedicated to lascivious behavior toward Data and Picard. I enjoy Alice Krige's performance, but nothing in the Borg concept to that point translates well into "horned up for Data, but maybe just pretending...?"

@kristophertower3476

5 жыл бұрын

@@MegaZeta the borg are in essence, functioning like a beehive.....(as in "hive mind", which has been a term used many times to describe the borg).....doesnt a beehive always have a queen?

i love pointing out mccoys racism and how kirk uses racist slurs as a safe word with spok

If you dont care about canon, i do not really see the point of telling a story in the universe. Make an original one. If what happened before doesnt matter i dont see how you can tell a good story

@sequoiahughes8536

5 жыл бұрын

SpecialNewb I’m obsessed with Star Trek; their guiding M.O. can be summed up in two words: FUCK CANON. That’s not me saying that-it’s Gene Roddenberry’s position, as evidenced by the dramatic changes in the Klingons’ appearance going from tv to film and various other changes that we all just rolled with cuz we were true fans.

@PyrokineticFire1

5 жыл бұрын

If you really need a way to make it palatable, treat each show like it's own universe. Voyager universe has weaker, negotiating borg, but in many ways it's similar to tng or ds9, heck their universe even has a Barclay and a Quark! The mirror universe is canon, there could be more that are too similar to properly differentiate their universe energy nonsense.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

You do realize that literally every Star Trek TV show, ever, ignored "canon" at points? That includes the original show, whose only "canon" was its own!

20:40 I was gonna leave a comment about how it seemed like people who left comments don't seem to pay attention to the video or simply read the title and came up with something to say because they felt they needed to say something. But you already did that, so... good video, man.

Hi, Steve! I really dig your Trek, Actually videos and I appreciate all the effort that you put into researching and writing them. Just to put this out there, I think you’ve got a perfectly cromulent head, and if you had wanted to eschew your cap now and again-like you did in your “Who Actually Ruined the Borg?” video-I think that could work for you. (That being said, there’s nothing wrong with caps either, so feel free to wear whatever you like. I’m just sayin’-I think either way could work if you had ever wanted to switch things up.)

Lol, that shit would never have flown with Worf. "Captain Picard, I feel it is my duty to inform you that if Dr. McCoy makes one more remark about my forehead or blood, I'm going to rip his head off."

I dunno the source of the 'no lasting damage' thing. But they did indeed mention Picard's damage from the Borg. That was the main theme in 'Family'.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

Yes, a single episode. A big step forward for the franchise when it came to depth of character... and also a little quaint when viewed in hindsight from the current era of ubiquitous serialized TV drama.

I'm now imagining the alternate timeline where Voyager didn't over-use the Borg, but all the list articles about "10 Biggest Plot Holes In Star Trek!!!" now complain about Voyager not meeting enough borgs while in borg territory.

The best fix for that Enterprise episode, is to simply have Phlox try to create a cure, think he has found it, try it, only to have it fail. And have the dilemma be whether to share warp technology (this dilemma is present but to a much lesser extent, I mean make it the main dilemma). Then have Archer determine that they don't have the technology level to understand it, and Earth simply cannot commit enough resources to that planet to make that viable. That is actually an understandable dilemma, and it doesn't make Archer and Phlox look like assholes. It makes them look like they are confronted with a dilemma that they don't have a solution to. And I can see that kind of dilemma eventually leading to the prime directive.

My brain works similarly to how you describe, where it's full of random trivia and facts that don't really help me in any way. I was also recruited onto an academic team like you, it was called Masterminds and it was teams of 3 students competing on a locally hosted trivia game show competing against teams from other schools. Our team consisted of one person who could do all the math, one person who knew all the art and music, and then me, who could tell you what colours a theatre light system uses or which side of a boat do the red and green lights go on.

This was great, I can't wait for the next one! I'm definitely not a TOS expert, but I can remember watching it as a kid and feeling like I'd taken away an observation that even nice people can harbor strange prejudices. I'm glad McCoy had those moments. I think I learned a lot about people through that. Anyhow, another excellent video, thanks! 😊

15:59 Right, the cardassian torture probably is not mentioned, but the Borg abduction and assimilation is mentioned in episodes like the beggining of DS9 when Sisko confronts Picard saying that they met in Wolf359 and the Picard face changes dramaticaly, or in films like First Contact when we see how deep the experience with the Borg blinded him, "blow the damm ship Picard" "No NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO", just for give two examples.

They use hologram communication in STD for no reason whatsoever, there's no narrative aspect that would justify them using it instead of the traditional on-screen communication. They still do despite it, within Star Trek canon, being something that was only introduced at the time of DS9. Those are things that I can not ignore. Because there is no real excuse for it. The sole reason why the writers decided to do this is that it looked cool and more futuristic, since we all can do video calls on your computers and even phones by now ourselves. But as soon as you throw away in-universe logic and continuity for sake of looks, it becomes a legit point of criticism.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

_Discovery_ has an obvious reason for using that sort of display: because it looks realistically futuristic to contemporary audiences in the same way videophones in _Star Trek_ and _2001: A Space Odyssey_ looked realistically futuristic to 1960s audiences.

@Phontoz

5 жыл бұрын

No doubt, changing the look of the work stations and controlls and so on i totally can live with. Thats just aesthetics, but changing the technology timeline to much just devalues the series a bit

Imagine if every time Spock made derogatory comments about humans it was substituted for a minority group. McCoy and Spock are both a bit prejudice.

(8 min) I think one of the main reasons McCoy is such a good character is BECAUSE of his character flaws. He isn't always cool and calm. He isn't always rational. He is also partly so because no matter how old he is supposed to be on the show he's the embodiment of a grumpy old man. I guess he's "that Uncle" who is mildly racist most times at Thanksgiving who, when he's had one too many Old Turkey's, tells you what he REALLY thinks. :D And his insults to Spock: very racist! I remember as a young teen watching the show thinking "That wasn't very nice to say about Spock!" (Of course, I MAY or MAY NOT have had a crush on our Science Officer!) As for reasons why Spock doesn't respond to the insults I owed that to the fact that he was a half breed. He had endured prejudice on his own home planet. As I reflect it was another case of Star Trek encapsulating a current truth. Mixed race offspring have experienced rejection no matter what their nationality. Fun episode, Steve!

Steve Shives, you are awesome! I rarely see these typos of responses and rebuttals. Some people may be upset by them, but I for one truly appreciate the response to your viewers because you care to respond and react to your viewers directly. It shows you take time out to review the comments and use positive feedback to either support, or even change your mind on some issues. Nice work!!!

At the end of the Gift Kes threw voyager safely past the limits of Borg space so there was an in continuity reason for the Borg to not being as major a presence in voyager as they were. The continued strong presence of the Borg actually undermines Kes throwing voyager to safety

9:14 Side note -- "cannon" is a weapon; "canon" is the official story line in a fictional world.

It occurs to me, last time I commented on the borg/voyager, I only stated my own interpretation of who killed the threat of the borg. And while I thoroughly enjoy voyager, it is junk food compared to DS9. So, it occurred to me, I should give an example of a sci-fi story that did a good job reinvigorating a similar “unknown threat” type hivemind, while showcasing the inner workings of said hivemind: Starcraft and the Zerg swarm. They started out with an immortal/regenerative core to their hivemind in the Overmind while holding a massive amount of “drones” and they had a limited number of cerebrates that held part of the overmind’s mind and authority (a rough analog to the “speakers” such as locutus). The first game destroyed the overmind’s immortality and the expansion replaced it with a more human successor and a shattered unity. (Much like what Star Trek TNG set up and first contact finished off) And yet, at the end of the Brood Wars the Zerg were left in a state of greater power for integrating human biological and cultural distinctiveness into their swarm, the very thing the Borg set out to do while failing in almost every encounter with the Federation (ignoring voyager entirely for now). In the second game(trilogy, whatever) the Zerg have been biding their time, ignoring their enemies to further synthesize the gains from their earlier wars, only to stumble upon an ancient evil enemy claiming omnipotence (which was clearly not yet the case, but on a countdown to such). The second trilogy focuses on a reforging of the swarm to attack “god” (a decent analogue to how the borg were not yet ready to assimilate a Q). It showcases various eras of Zerg evolution in finding a path, sometimes working with other races rather than infesting(assimilating) them, to that same pinnacle of evolution making the core of their hivemind a god herself by the end. Now voyager, being written with far worse writters than those at blizzard, and given much less time to write, tried to give the borg a similar story. Except, they started off from a worse point in the borg’s evolution and they decided that the borg were an outright enemy that could only barely be reasoned with, rather than a large empire that has a very hard sell on not just raiding your brains giving the federation a chance to become trading partners (in such a way that the borg profit far more than if they just assimilated a human and lost the inquisitive drive they were trying to obtain from humanity). The federation as a whole might be a threat to the borg, but they could have kept it clear that voyager was a test-bed for a new kind of assimilation for the borg. The very same kind of assimilation the federation upholds with its exploratory mission, cultural assimilation. It would have been a very interesting twist on the series if it was made blatantly clear throughout voyager’s time in the borg’s space that the queen was watching Seven’s growth and the borg vessels that were destroyed by voyager were counterbalanced in conversations Seven would sometimes have with the Queen while regenerating. If sleeping Seven was mostly secret to waking Seven it would even make certain episodes about secret sections of the borg hivemind where the original minds were left intact, a far more purposeful and desirable evolution for the Borg. I believe Voyager tried to make the borg a proper race and failed the borg, because they were afraid of letting them Win the long game, as in starcraft, the Zerg won their long game without needing to wipe out their competition. The writers of Voyager tried to write a great story for the borg, but were either insufficiently skilled to do so, and/or were insufficiently willing to transform the Borg into what TNG promised they would become but never delivered on. Like TNG, Voyager refused to allow the Borg to become godkillers and thus failed the Borg as a species and as a society.

Agree about the choice to use the Borg. Also the way they chose to use them. Writers could have had them witnessing destroyed Borg cubes for whole season to build tension. Wondering the whole time, what's this threat that's even worse than the Borg? Will The Borg's problems, of which we don't even know the cause, keep them distracted from us? This would have created a wonderful tension and other races could have been introduced in the middle of this situation. Are they sneaking through Borg territory like us? Are these the ones destroying Borg cubes? Enterprise effectively did something like this taking many episodes to reveal the unexpected complexity of the Xindi and introducing new aliens, with unrelated motivations, as part of this process.

The thing about the Enterprise Refit kinda misses the point I think. It is the same basic ship just with upgrades done to it. The hull itself is the same, but the interior, engines, and assorted engineering spaces have changed a bit. It was not a new hull. This is like when a naval vessel goes into drydock for a refit. It is the same ship just with modifications and improvements that were developed after the ship was commissioned.

Love the Channel and the content, Trek stuff especially. Two ideas: 1: top ten times Riker puts the enterprise/federation at risk due to his libido 2: Top ten Vulcan Emotional freak outs, ie; sex driven t’pol, Spock has some great ones, Tuvok with Sudor... Keep up the great work.

Aren't they also kind of gaslighting Moriarty by creating a digital world that he can explore at the end of the Moriarty is self-aware episode and allowing him to believe that he was a "real boy"?

11:00 The argument presented in that comment is how we get right-wing capitalist "libertarians" and even anarcho-capitalists asserting that it's still "freedom" if a monopolist owns your food and water supplies as "private property", and leaves you to starve and die unless you give them all your waking hours as labour. Because, apparently, you starving and dying while they withhold the solution isn't violence, but you daring to grow potatoes without permission on an unused plot of land in the middle of nowhere which the monopolist purportedly "owns" is immoral heresy ... Such is their "non-aggression principle" (NAP) in full sociopathic extortionate force, and that initial argument is its _entire basis._ I'm not accusing the commenter of being a wealthy sociopath, but it's important to recognize where notions like this invariably lead.

@jamespulver3890

5 жыл бұрын

Well, yes - but if you go entirely the other way you may well get tragedy of the commons. I mean, who defines unused? Maybe it's a private park, or should no wilderness areas be allowed? etc...

@18:40 Also the Equinox managed to travel more of the delta quadrant for a longer period of time without encountering a single Borg ship according to Captain Ransom. So its established that Voyager could have made the majority of the trip home with little or no contact with the Borg.

Interesting point you make about the racism of McCoy, I never thought about it this way. But after thinking for a while, I had to come back to this video to say something about it: I do not think it's racist. Not because I just don't want it to be racist, but because not every insult that is specifically targeted at some features or characteristics shared by a group need to be classified as such. Interchanging Spock with a black man and then imagining McCoy talking about specific features or making fun of something that can be attributed to him being black let's us see it as racist, true, but let's change it up a bit and give Spock red hair. If McCoy would call him a witch, that wouldn't be racist, it would just be an insult using some feature. If Spock would be from Alabama, he could call him a redneck or in inbred - hard insult, but not racist. Even calling a white dude a cracker wouldn't be racist. It's the historic context that makes the N-Word or other insults against black people such a big deal, it's because there comes a big package with those words. Vulcans where (at least to my knowledge) never the target of discrimination in such a way, and they also discriminate against humans on multiple occasions. So what I am trying to say is: 1. Either we accept that insults against race-stereotypes are not always racist, or (and that is more logical to assume) 2. Racism is not as bad in this context, because it does not come with the consequences it has right now, on earth. I do not want to defend racism with that one bit, but I think that just calling McCoy racist in this context doesn't serve him justice.

@johnohara4788

4 жыл бұрын

Also doesn’t Enterprise show us that the Vulcans were massively racist towards humans in the beginning? As in deliberately holding humanity back from certain technology because they held some pseudo-colonialist paternalistic attitudes

@tonybarlow4291

4 жыл бұрын

So if I said here's another white man defending the use language Ii well guess it doesn't bother you . you cannot tell me how I should think or feel about anything said to me

@mjsj2

4 жыл бұрын

Having red hair does not constitute being of a different race.

@captainsternn7684

4 жыл бұрын

It's like racism is a spectrum 1 being not racist, 2 recognizes stereotypes, 3 racial humor, ect..ect..ect.. 9 displacement of certain races, 10 being kill all 'x' race for example. After seeing some McCoy/Spock clips I would argue that McCoy is racist, he's just a 3.5 to 4 out of 10 racist, he's taken jabs at spocks pointy ears and green blood but that was just banter and jest, a level of racism not to be taken seriously... The problem is the stigma the word racism holds, people just love to turn it up to 11 whenever they're accusing people of racism.

@ttintagel

4 жыл бұрын

Just because a word or action may not be “a big deal” doesn’t mean it ain’t racist.

It would be great to see you highlight some of the comments and questions that got you thinking, like you mention at the end of this video. P.s. Love your content.

Hi Steve! I discovered your videos a short while ago and have been catching up on them whenever I can. I really enjoy your content and look forward to more!

@SteveShives

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Spock not being a white guy because he was playing an alien is like saying Al Jolson counted as a black guy in movies.

I just wanted to know would you make a video about Major Kira I 've always thought she was a military badass what are your thoughts.

15:58 Why does it matter how many times it was mentioned again? What does that disprove? TNG is an old-school episodic series; they did their best to keep every episode self-contained and avoid referencing events that casual viewers may not have seen. Every time Q appeared, they had to awkwardly recount all his previous appearances; did you want more of that? And Picard becoming Locutus seemed to have no effect on him in the rest of the series either, being mentioned only twice (to his brother and to Hugh), but it still broke him badly enough to be the basis for his erratic motives in the First Contact film. So "it's never mentioned again" is not in any way a valid counterpoint, and is a lazy response at best. TL, DR: "so what?"

Big Fan! As I watch your blogs I notice that you always sit and observe your teleprompter to the right side of the screen over the title of the episode/subject/rant you are currently commenting on. May I make a suggestion; if the current comment is negative flip the feed horizontally. Vise versa for a positive comment… Just a thought… Mike

Talking about the Borg in Voyager and how they could've approached it got me to thinking: It was established very early that you could beam over to a Borg ship and they wouldn't even seem to notice, until you started doing damage or messing with something you shouldn't because they don't consider it any threat. So wouldn't it be possible that a smaller ship could just brazenly sail through a Borg-dominated star system or two without the Borg twitching, since one Federation ship (they would likely recognize it) wouldn't add much to the Collective as they've realistically already assimilated from their prior Federation encounters? And then they could've told some other interesting stories, like a couple species that rag-tag around in Borg space, doing their best to not look interesting or novel, or maybe the Voyager while in Borg space need to do/acquire something that WILL get the Borg to start noticing them. I always felt the Borg were are their creepiest and most menacing when they are just going about their business in that anticipation of "when will the ant hill finally awaken and kick your ass?"

Utter Tangent: Steve ... seriously ... that background music? GEEZ! It harks back to Leroy Anderson and David Rose and the 60s!!! I half-expected you to segue into "Holiday for Strings," except that it's almost certainly still protected by copyright. Are you goin' geezer on us, dude? [chuckle!]

I think one of the worst moves Voyager made was the introduction of those "Klingon Lite" or "Hippie Klingon" villains at the very beginning, the Kazon. Yuch.

i relate so hard to being kicked off an academic team for being ineligible due to grades, since that exact thing basically happened to me junior year of high school. i was basically barred from participating in the Academic Decathlon team *after* we had won state and were going to go to the national competition.

These 21+ minutes went by very quickly. And also, too, I like it when you're a bit snarky. Good video, Steve. Keep it up.

Speaking of cannon: so you think caliber matters? W..what? Wrong topic?

What can we expect from the new Star Trek series which will feature an older Captain Picard in your opinion and what would you like to see them explore more?

Great video. Would it be possible to do an Axanar video? I’d love to hear your review of the material, take on the conflict behind the scenes, and links to Discovery. Thank you again. Checking out your podcast now.

@SteveShives

5 жыл бұрын

A few other folks have requested something about Axanar. I'll see what I can come up with. Thanks!

In regards to beaming holograms, technically that could still work if the hologram itself is detailed enough. Such as a holographic patient for use in simulated surgeries.

Picard's breaking was mentioned at least once after that episode. First thing to mind is the time he was investigated because of all the times he was put in situations that any other person would have been completely broken. It was said he should have been less effective or corrupted in some way. Sure it was a plot (in a plot. Haha I'm funny) but it was there. And I'm pretty sure it came up more than that. But it has been a very long time since I watched tng.

(4:02) Raising a glass in toasting gesture, "to manufactured human beings!" I know Steve will get the reference, but for anyone who doesn't, see the DS9 episode "Take Me Out to the Holodeck," (the episode Steve's Niners hat comes from, though he is not wearing that particular hat in THIS video).

Technically he is a Speciest. lol

About the Borg: When Voyager encounters the other federation ship brought to the Delta Quad by the caretaker... The other ship had never encountered the borg at all. So it's CANON to travel through the Delta quadrant and never encounter the Borg :P

Could you use a replicator to create a human based on a holodeck character? It makes other living things like that Klingon worm food, fruit, probably plants, etc.

Hi. Enjoyed this a lot Steve. And I appreciate when ppl take the time to comment on KZread (not demean). Also does anyone know why this vid said there were 40 comments but I could only see 4? I tried scrolling up & down to 'refresh', and then closed the vid & reopened but then saw the number had gone to 51 yet I could only see 5! Thanks!

I thought the Prime Directive was specifically made for pre-warp civilizations and as such wouldn't apply in the case of the colonists in the DMZ...

"Assuming you call that green stuff in your veins 'blood'" - "The readings are perfectly normal for me doctor, thank you. And as for my anatomy being different from yours, I am delighted"

Though with Picard becoming Locutus the psychological after effects were at least mentioned in a few episodes. First when he visits his family and has a break down, second it colours his dealing with the Borg drone, Hue, amd finally there is First Contact. It wasn't referenced as much as maybe it should have been, but at least they do go back to it.

I usually watch your videos just after they come out as they pop up in my timeline and I listen to them at work... I don't get to see many of the comments on your videos.

Very enjoyable. Also what watch are you wearing?

@SteveShives

5 жыл бұрын

It's a Batman watch. Here's a link to it on Amazon: a.co/d/c3WW9Qq

@tristanthompson1980

5 жыл бұрын

@@SteveShives sweet, thanks for the reply. If you had to choose between being in the Klingon empire, or the federation which would you choose? Also if you go federation you must serve on Voyager

Steve, will you do a video responding to comments left in response to this comment response video?

Steve, I like the new-coined word you have provided. The combined word epitaph-expletive, at 07:42. I could not even attempt to spell it out here, my ears are better than my language skills.

First of all The Ensign's Log is hilarious, second I would like to comment on you saying in this video that Captain Picard's 5 lights or four lights were never used in the rest of The Next Generation if I understand you correctly and if I do not I apologize. I have found several times that Jean-Luc's light dilemma was not mentioned in the rest of TNG but it was mentioned more than once in both Voyager and/or Deep Space Nine. I will say this though, of ST: Voyager and ST: DS9 I agree with you that the characters were very flat on Voyager yet on DS9 the character development was good for the most part, example Garak and Quark's nephew Nog and maybe so on Kira, not so much on the heroic Captain Sisko. All I got, but I do want to commend you on doing good work I do love all these Trek Actually videos.

The biggest "offender" in story-before-canon matters was Nicholas Meyer, who made the two greatest Star Trek movies ever. So there's that.

Also you see the torment Picard went through with the Borg every time he comes in to contact with them or someone that suffered a wolf 359. Like sisko. Does Abraham has to go get his whale not ring any bells x

I feel like the fact that the interior of the ship was so different that Kirk got lost is enough to say that no, TMP Enterprise was not the same ship anymore. But! It was similar enough that Kirk formed a quick attachment to it. It's like when you lose a pet, and then a few weeks later, you see someone walking a pet that looks similar but not exactly like them, and then they do something you associated with them, and for a moment, it's like they're right there. But instead of a fleeting moment that ends in being sad, Kirk gets to play with the ship, live on it, save the universe with it. And in that time, it's like he never left, until two movies later, when the moment ends and the feels punch him in the face.

Hey there fella - loving the videos, they are truly awesome. Got to say though, have to disagree with the statement that there were no long lasting effects due to trauma for Picard, that were referenced or a cause of impact in other episodes or films. Way back, in the beginning of First Contact the Enterprise was sent off to patrol the Neutral Zone because StarFleet thought that he would be an 'unstable element' . Surely that must be an impact? Although - I would have thought there were was an opportunity in the films to delve a little deeper into the effects of that trauma. It would make for a hugely relevant, touching and hopefully inspirational film, to see a hero like Picard struggle with and ultimately overcome his demons. Anyway - keep up the great work and keep the videos coming.

@JohnMcNamaraTech

5 жыл бұрын

Now I think of it - there was the episode (I think) called Family - where he had a big fight with his brother, then broke down, due to the trauma of the Borg experience.

Re canon: I feel like it's a much better story when you keep to the existing universe you're playing in. If the story you want to tell needs you to break LOTS of canon, like if you're changing over maybe 5%, you *should* ask yourself why you want to use this existing universe for the story. If you're like Discovery, changing 50% of canon, you really ought to ask why you want to use any of "Star Trek". Because you don't have to. You really don't. See Dark Matter or Killjoys, or BSG. You can have a good story without being in the Star Trek universe. I.e. most of the "Star Trek" stuff, to me, hurts Discovery's story, so why fight that battle, and piss off a huge fanbase in the process? The *only* reason Discovery needed to be Star Trek, and the only thing that helps is to "trick" fans into paying for CBS All Access. Otherwise it would have worked just as well (probably better) without being in the Star Trek universe. Of course, then far less people would have signed up for the streaming service. That's a shitty way to treat fans.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

It _can_ make for a better story, _sometimes,_ when you establish _reasonable_ consistency with other stories that came before it. As far as keeping to "canon" is concerned, no Star Trek show has ever done that, including the first one (whose only "canon" was itself!)

i love how most of these are people completely missing the point and your response is to just sum up the video that they obviously didn't really pay much attention to in the first place.

Pretty sure UPN started pushing for the Producers to use the Borg more and more on STV. I remember how excited my friends and I were the first Borg episode was promoted. And then it was OK...ish. And then they just kept coming back. And don't get me started on Species #8472.

Why do people have a problem with the idea that McCoy could be a brilliant doctor, a hero of the Federation, a good friend, and also a little bit racist? He's a product of the time he was written in, and though it probably wasn't meant this way at the time, it makes him a more flawed, interesting character in hindsight.

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

I don't think there's a lot of real, existing people familiar with the character who would dispute any of that.

I've never understood why McCoy (rightly) gets called on his anti-Vulcan attitude but Spock gets a perpetual pass on his anti-human attitude. Yes, sometimes Spock is just responding to needling from Bones (or Kirk) but a lot of the time he's pretty damn racist towards humans.

Einstein got kicked out of college.

Re: the last comment -- the "well of course they ran into Captain Hook because they were in Neverland" argument -- the writers knew full well what they were doing with the Borg by setting Voyager in the Delta Quadrant. The problem was baked into the cake from day zero. It's actually kind of amazing it took them three seasons to get around to the Borg plot -- it almost seems like a lot of that Kes and Neelix stuff was just tease.

Great work man, keep it up! I've been binging your content all day!

I'd like to back you up on the Borg in Delta Quadrant. Prior to Voyager they never establish where in the Delta Quadrant or how big Borg territory is (although assumed large considering). It is very well established that Germany is in Europe. But when travelling through Europe does that mean you have to travel through Germany? Kansas is in the U.S., when was the last time you had to travel through Kansas to get from Florida to Maine?

Yea, withholding the cure, was one of the worst acts within Star Trek. I cannot overstate how much I disagree with that decision.

I don't see canon conflicts as a necessarily bad thing. They should be considered challenges to the writers to find a way to creatively reconcile the contradictions. Tragically, there is an epidemic that Dr. Steve Shives would diagnose as Lazy Writing Syndrome.

@yankeedrummer21

5 жыл бұрын

How about lazy fan syndrome where the fanboi is so restricted in their thinking they cant think around a problem so they just keep ramming their heads against the brick wall instead of finding a door to get to the other side?

@MegaZeta

5 жыл бұрын

It's possible, but unlikely, that a story dedicated to "reconciling contradictions" in "canon" will turn out to be more than the sum of its parts. (I'd argue that rare bird can be sighted in _Enterprise,_ season 4, but that's just me.) On the other hand, for something like _Star Trek,_ it's almost obligatory that good stories ignore "canon" if and when that's necessary to tell a good story.

Outstanding piece. Can’t wait for more. Picard had many problems--Jack, Beverly, Wesley, the vineyard, the Nausicaan fight, Q, the Stargazer, the D and the E, Kirk, Data. I really think Deanna saw him several times a month for their entire time on the ship. Worthy of a full video on him, or two, plus one on him and tech (Starfleet, the artificial heart, Data, Borg, and androids).

Denise Crosby left TNG for the same reason that most of the other cast members felt about leaving. She just acted upon it.

Almost completely agree with your feelings regarding canon, Steve. I make a similar argument in my criticisms of Star Trek Discovery: www.megabearsfan.net/post/2018/04/26/Mirror-universe-doesnt-save-Star-Trek-Discovery.aspx For an episodic show like Star Trek, it is acceptable to violate certain elements of canon if it tells a better story. Problems arise when you try to be too serialized, and can't remain consistent within your own show. That being said, however, I would prefer if the writers would do a better job of laying down the limits of what they are willing to violate and what they aren't. Just because Star Trek has played fast and lose with canon before doesn't mean that any new series or movie should be grandfathered-in and allowed to violate canon without criticism. And if you're going to do it, you better do it in service of a good story!

Oh man, you're story about Academic Team and recall is near identical to my situation haha. My friend has gotten me on the academic team because I remember incredibly trvivial details, details such as things about comics and games and such!