"we can't put a denomination before Christ"

I seem to remember something about not being yoked with unbelievers. Unity cannot exist without agreement on what they believe.

Thank you. Your point about unity in Christ before unity in the church really well put.

The mere fact that unity is so tricky and problematic is possibly an answer in itself.

Is it really possible for unity? It seems to me that the Church of England is sending out mixed messages to the public at large .

The focus on unity at all costs needs to be put in check biblically with verses like Luke 12:49-53. Division in certain circumstances is commanded. Yes is it painful and not peaceful, but unless people repent…they will perish, and that is truely more painful and divisive.

I left the C of E and now worship in a Free Evangelical Church

@danmillar9582

Ай бұрын

There's not many of those

@johnbristow8099

Ай бұрын

So do I!

I am united with those who follow Jesus and His teachings and I can call them my brothers and sisters in God's family. Those not following the teachings of Jesus but following the ways of the world are not in God's family. Unity at all costs is not an option. Unity in Christ, being in the world but not of the world is the option. Sin is clearly defined in scripture and the Church of God comes before the Church of England Chris x

@andrewbilton5993

Ай бұрын

The fact that there is an ‘ongoing debate’ and a ‘variety’ of genuinely held views surely reflects the simplicity of your position and statement? Many on the other side of your position are just as much a part of God’s family as you.

@johnhudghton3535

Ай бұрын

Exactly right Chris

@johnhudghton3535

Ай бұрын

​@@andrewbilton5993...in your opinion and not universally held. There just will not be unity and should not be unity according to scripture. Simplicity - Jesus and the early church were pretty straight forward, maybe simple in the view of some.

@lesliecruttenden2241

Ай бұрын

Les Cruttenden NSM retired prison governor. The teaching of Scripture is quite clear on this matter. In such incidents the identity of a church which disobeys scripture may be defined as a Church of England but it can never be defined as the Church of Christ. The situation is not helped by the current Archbishop. Any church that follows such false teaching should be removed from the C of E.

@johnhudghton3535

Ай бұрын

@@lesliecruttenden2241 Spot on Les. 🙂

For those who turn away from our lords teachings in the Church of England our lord will deal with.Until this mess is sorted out in our lords teachings, best to stay away from the darkness who has created this dreadful falling away of our faith. Walking away from C OF E for the time being. Marriage between Man and woman only.not same sex relationship blessings,/marriage.Cannot enter a Church of England for some time now,since this horrible turning away of our Lords teachings.

@Mark3ABE

Ай бұрын

I agree with you. We all assume that being an active member of a local parish church is the only possible way of living the Christian life. However, let us suppose that you were the sole survivor of a shipwreck, marooned on a deserted island. Does it follow that, because you cannot attend your local parish church, you would cease to be a Christian? Of course not! We can remain in full union with the true Church of Jesus Christ by meditating upon the truths of Sacred Scripture, the writings of the Church Fathers and the lives of the Saints. That is not the perfect will of Christ for a Christian, of course, however, we cannot consent to remain in spiritual communion with those who deny any essential teaching found in the Sacred Scriptures. I personally, would consider that a parish church would have been desecrated if a homosexual “marriage” ceremony had been carried out in it by the Vicar. Sometimes the only way is to “vote with your feet”.

"The other argument is about how one interprets scripture, but...." Every time I hear a "but" it gets my attention.

I've been on the Divine Renovation Catholic Parish conference for a few days. They’re not at war on this issue because the issue is settled in a church with authority. They have their problems too of course, but the magisterium puts things into a much better context.

DAN: Although I'm a retired Nurse, I studied Theology at university, back in the 1970s; and one of the oldest, and most valued books, in my library is 'A DICTIONARY OF CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY', edited by the late Dean of York, Professor Alan Richardson. In it, there is an article, written by Professor Richardson, on the 'Doctrine of Scripture' in the Church of England. Were today's Anglicans to familiarise themselves with this superb summary of how they should be TREATING and READING our scriptures, then I suspect that many of the problems in connection with 'LIVING IN LOVE AND FAITH' might disappear; and Christians, once again, gather around Our Lord's table to "Do this, in remembrance". Unfortunately, the article does not leave much room for those who prefer to treat and read the Judeo-Christian scriptures in the manner in which a devout Muslim does his Koran.

Why strive for unity ? Why not strive for Truth? "Thy Word is truth."

@davidsprouse151

29 күн бұрын

Conservaties are a "loyal" bunch: party before nation, tribe before truth.

You cannot unify light and dark.

@davidsprouse151

Ай бұрын

Unless one defines darkness as the absence of light.

@leskaighin8903

Ай бұрын

@@davidsprouse151 I will simply refer you to 2 Corinthians 6:14

@davidsprouse151

Ай бұрын

@@leskaighin8903 With the overarching message of the gospels one could easily define darkness as the absence of light. (it is in physics by the way) The argument for shunning sinners is counter to one's obligations to them.

@leskaighin8903

Ай бұрын

@@davidsprouse151 there is a vast difference between having fellowship at the communion table with people who deny the gospel and shunning sinners. To argue that light and dark, or hot and cold are really the same thing, from a Biblical perspective is plainly wrong. One can show love to someone without being in fellowship with them.

@davidsprouse151

29 күн бұрын

@leskaighin8903 lol it's a free country. The 'vast difference " you see is something trivial to others.

There is a similar crisis in the Catholic Church at the moment. Over the last forty of fifty years, it has been accepted that the majority of the clergy would be of a homosexual orientation. Officially, they would endeavour to try to live chaste lives. In practice, as Pope Benedict XVI now formally acknowledges in his final book “What is a Christian” homosexual clubs were set up in the seminaries in the 1980s in the hope of making up for falling vocations by attracting in men of a homosexual tendency by offering them an active homosexual lifestyle as long as it was conducted discretely. Attracting men of an immoral lifestyle into the ranks of the clergy had a disastrous affect on the life of the Church. The sex abuse crisis, of course, but other problems as well. In an effort to shock the Church into taking the problem seriously, the Pope, in his capacity as Primate of All Italy and President of the Italian Episcopal Conference, stated that “there is far too much gaiety amongst the clergy”. He did not use an Italian word similar to “gaiety”. He used a vulgar swear word, intended to be offensive to homosexuals. When the Pope was challenged over his choice of words, he did not apologise - he apologised for the fact that some disloyal person had made public what was said at a meeting intended to be behind closed doors, thereby causing offence to homosexuals. To stress the point, the Pope used the same word a week later, this time openly. Now, of course, the Pope is wrong on several counts. No Christian should ever use bad language, under any circumstances. He certainly should not do so in a deliberate and calculated way. Then again, for the last ten years, the Pope has been Primate of All Italy and President of the Italian Episcopal Conference. The selection of seminarians in the Church in Italy has, therefore, been a matter for which he has been directly, personally, responsible. It therefore makes no sense for him to rant and rave asserting that there is too much “gaiety” amongst the Italian clergy - when he himself has set the policy which approved the position in which the Italian Church now finds itself! At a doctrinal level, of course, the Pope is quite correct. The clergy should be selected from men of the highest possible moral integrity. I fully agree with him on that point, of course. However, it is difficult to take what he says seriously. He has offended the homosexual community in the Catholic Church by using offensive language - without actually doing anything to address the underlying problem.

@philiphumphrey1548

Ай бұрын

As a Catholic (former Anglican) I am disappointed (to say the least) at Francis's leadership. What you say is true and it is a terrible burden that has undoubtedly contributed to the abuse scandals and hindered the growth of the Church.

@Mark3ABE

Ай бұрын

@@philiphumphrey1548 Some years ago, Pope Francis stated openly that he intended to create ambiguity, uncertainty and confusion in the Church. At the time, no one really took him seriously. Most thought that he was simply joking. However, as time has passed, it is clear that he did mean what he said. The latest document issued by the Vatican proposes to “soften” the position of the Church on the dogma of Papal Infallibility. This is a very problematic area. The dogma caused major problems in the Church when it was defined in 1870. Many English Catholics left to join the Old Catholic Church. The Archbishop of Paris was the strongest dissenting voice, by many of the American Bishops also spoke out against it, saying that they considered it blasphemous to declare the Pope “Infallible”. In the 150 years since it was defined, the Church decided that, in practice, the dogma would never be invoked. It never has been invoked. It is considered, informally, by Theologians, to be a “dead letter”. When he was elected in 1958, Pope John XXIII confirmed, specifically, that he would never invoke the dogma. Recently, Cardinal Fernandez has stated that Pope Francis would never invoke the dogma. In an effort to move towards unity with the Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Pope has decided not to assume the title “Vicar of Christ” and to adopt a new title “Patriarch of the Western Church” to make it clear that he does not assert any authority over the Eastern Orthodox Churches and that unity could be restored without those Churches having to submit to the authority of Rome. All of this is rather problematic. For the last 150 years, all Catholics have stoutly defended the dogma of Papal Infallibility, explaining to their non Catholic friends that it is an essential teaching of the Church. Setting it aside, or “softening” it as the Pope now proposes would cause some confusion and uncertainty amongst the Faithful. Although that, of course, is what the Pope promised he would do!

@Bob.W.

Ай бұрын

There shouldn't be a homosexual community in the Church. There are only Christians. If an individual wants to be offended that's on him.

@Bob.W.

Ай бұрын

My earlier reply was deleted. There is no such thing as g*y community in the Church. There are only Christians, without division into such groups or communities. If a person wants to allow his feelings to get hurt that is his business, not ours.

@davidsprouse151

Ай бұрын

@@philiphumphrey1548 A five-year study in Ontario, Canada, found that theologically conservative churches, which adhere to a literal interpretation of the Bible, experience faster growth. They poached from other churches, though. Does conservative theology increase the overal population of christians? No. The abuse scandals happened long before Francis was Pope. You're a little loosey-goosey with the facts.

One cannot have unity in a divided house, our Lord and Saviour makes this cleat himself.

How about we forget the traditions of men/(women) and have unity with HOLY Scripture? There are plenty of other places for all non CHRISTians to belong; why not let the church be for those who actually read the bible and want to be one body, the bride of CHRIST; the world is a separate body; and those who count them equal; will have their lamp put out; just as revelation states! Thank you for standing firm in the faith Rev Dan! Blessings upon blessing brother; i’m so grateful for your stance 🕊️🌟☮️✝️🥳

I think the question is what is "communion". It certainly is not the sort of bondage and slavery where clergy and churches cannot demur, even onatters of conscience but because of a sort of financial bond slavery. It isn't communion it's slavery. My vicar (25 years in to his ministry) hold no personal property and has a large family. He cannot leave and all he can do is make the best of things in the vain hope that the bishops who he has trusted for so many years, turn back to Christ and his scriptures. But they have repeatedly proved false. They have indeed become a Romans 13 governmental authority that must be respected as they have the power of law and property to back them up. They force people to put the denomination before Christ.

I get the impression that the LLF ‘gang’ are just hoping that the ‘problem’, ie churches who want to preach the true Gospel, will simply go away. The God whom I worship will never allow that to happen.

Thanks… you make it clear where you think and I agree with you. I can’t imagine going to a church where two people of the same sex are ‘married’… and one of them is the vicar. The bishops seem hell bent on pursuing this worldly ambition to marry same sex couples. ‘Space’ mmmm… I know it is hard to believe, after all this time, but people on my PCC just don’t feel able to discuss these matters. It would help if they (the PCC) all attended church and also if they all actually read their Bibles!

@kenbeach5021

Ай бұрын

_The bishops seem hell bent on pursuing this worldly ambition_ Your turn of phrase is very appropriate!

@andrewbilton5993

Ай бұрын

Perhaps they do read their bibles and just genuinely and respectfully hold a different interpretation.

@kathrynvessey4659

Ай бұрын

@@andrewbilton5993 Nope… they really don’t!! I know it’s hard to believe. I mean, why would anyone be on a PCC who doesn’t attend the church and isn’t a professing Christian? Beats me! Welcome to rural Norfolk 🤨

@catherinehume9193

Ай бұрын

Nope, they do not read their Bibles. I’m gay and stand for Jesus. These liberal gay Christians absolutely hate me for following Jesus’ commands and their views on any topic you can think of have absolutely no basis in the Bible and often go against Jesus’ teachings. They do not base their lives on the Bible just with a different interpretation. They are clueless about the Bible and its contexts etc. Utterly clueless, but very emotional, very messed up as people, very quick to anger and hate. I know this from 24 years of first hand experience.

Is this why the first bill to disastablish church of england was accepted? As they can't agree?

The bishops have forgotten that The Church is called to be separate form the world, in the world but not of the world, fortunately the church isn’t a building or the synod its the true born again believers who follow Christ and seek His will for their lives.

“They” are going toward the one world religion. It will start as the Abrahamic faiths and then evolve into the environmental religion.

The question of whether or not to essentially normalize something that is clearly condemned in scripture is a heavy cross to bear for all Christian denominations. Follow scripture when it comes to homosexuality and you'll be called a homophobe follow the world and you'll be called a heretic.

@philiphumphrey1548

Ай бұрын

We are called to follow Jesus (as recorded in the Holy Scripture) whatever the price.

@catherinehume9193

Ай бұрын

I’m gay and Christian and stand for Jesus. I have faced threats of violence etc from liberal gay Christians for 24 years now. Those people are not loving. They are full of hate. They are also incredibly confused and damaged people when you get talking to them. You give a sensible recommendation for them to do something for a couple of weeks and they say wow! No one has ever suggested that to me before. Eg if you don’t know who or what you’re attracted to, maybe don’t have sec with anyone until you do know. That was a revelation to one young liberal gay Christian 24 years ago, the day before more liberal gay Christians threatened me with violence at Greenbelt which was all totally ok with the leaders of greenbelt including Paul Northup the organiser. These are highly confused people, highly damaged people, very angry and bitter people. They do not know Christ even though they claim to. They do not turn to Him for comfort nor guidance in times of trouble nor in their daily lives.

What do YOU think Rev Dan?

I should have got a seat in the synod many years ago, to turn tide.st Philips church in Southport should have scrapped being a denomination/combined one.

Is it possible for unity in the Church of England.NO

Unity Is possible if we walk together under the Scriptures. It is only possible among Biblical Christians / Anglicans

2 Corinthians 5.18

Not institutional unity, no. Amos 3:3.

2 Corinthians 6.15

Sorry,,, meant to write ‘what’ you believe…

Tut. Maybe this is the real problem. The average lay person has little contact with their PCC let alone their deanery, or diocesan synod. I am on all three and it is at times a trial of patience let alone the masses or reading and time it takes. It is from among the people who are inclined to this kind of thing where the votes are cast for General synod. Our deanery is packed to the gunnels with people who are there because they are activists of some kind be it environmental or progressive and there are few evangelicals because they are busy running alpha, doing evangelism, or discipling people through small groups - there is this a huge disconnect between what happens on the ground and the governmental structures. Then when we recently had re-election you had to get other synod members to propose and second you meaning that both me and my progressive enemies were out there trying to convince people in the same camp to propose and second each other. Consequences? A very divided house. But just about more progressives than orthodox and the many in the leave-me-alone-to-get-on-with-things brigade. Then in general synod elections the majority of those elected from our diocese were progressive. It just does not work.

Read the Bible. Jesus said a man leaves his parents and joins with his wife and ❤the two become one. Simple . That is marriage.

It is impossible to be united with Bishops & clergy who are going against the Holy Bible, tradition & doctrine. But why should those who accept and keep to the Holy Bible, tradition & doctrine leave their church buildings & communities when historically those teaching and practicing counter views would have been publicly defrosted.

I do not think that Christians have ever been united - this was a major criticism that the Roman Celsus laid against Christianity.

Is Unity Possible For The Church Of England?...No ..fading industry,,amen

Vote Reform

No

Church of England??Church of Jesus Christ one is Christian one is Anglican ,Preach the Gospel( good news of salvation) not Anglican doctrine. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. IT IS ALL ABOUT JESUS !!!!!!!!

@clivejungle6999

Ай бұрын

The Church was founded by Jesus and has been guided by the Holy Spirit. Anglicanism is one attempt at trying to faithfully follow the apostolic teachings. No denomination is perfect or exactly like the 1st century Church, due to human sin. But to reject one part of the True Church is to reject the Holy Spirit and to call Jesus a liar when he said the gates of Hades shall not overcome it.

Unity comes when we all submit our own desires to the will of God expressed in Christ. Unity is not and will never be acquiescence to sin in the house of God. Paul faced the issue of sexual sin in the early church and he was clear, have no communion with it. It seems to me that the CofE places "togetherness", (because it isn't unity) above the word of God. 2 Corinthian 6:17 says this... Therefore “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.” The problem you have is making that decision to follow the clear commandment of God. My question to you is this: Whose praise do you seek? man's or God??

@davidsprouse151

29 күн бұрын

Paul's teachings aren't "commandments from God" These are god's commandments: Love God: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” Love Others: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Being part of the CofE but having nothing to do with your bishop, doesn't make any sense to me. You might as well leave the denomination.

Hooo cares?

@davidsprouse151

Ай бұрын

who,who.

@garyolsen3409

Ай бұрын

@@davidsprouse151 Who?