Does what I said make any sense at all? 😅What price would you pay for a nice new compact micro four thirds camera? What are the specs you want for the next new compact micro four thirds from OM system or Panasonic?

@cameraprepper7938

16 күн бұрын

To be fair, Panasonic have upgraded to 25 megapixels, but at the cost of lower dynamic range. The camera makers need money to make new produts, I think that is the biggest issue now, I do not think it is cheaper to make a MTF camera than it is to make a full frame camera. I would pay premium price for a premium Camera (I do not want cheap cameras !). Right now compact cameras are on a rise. The most perfect compact Camera, will be a Camera in style as the Contax T (first version) and/or Minox 35 ML, it should NOT have OVF, but an excellent EVF with high resolution and good magnification, I do NOT need a backside screen ! The Camera should be very easy to operate in full manual mode and the Lens should be an excellent high end 17mm Lens (35mm equivalent). The same will be for a mirrorless system MFT Camera, excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification and no backside screen, very easy to operate manually, remember a very good joystick !!! NO video functions or ability to hide ALL video functions and shut all video function OFF ! Also new high end compact MTF Lenses. I do not want speed, I want good build quality ! 99% of the time I do manual focus, so I do not need any fancy autofocus, but I do need an excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification. About size, there are NO excuses for Panasonic to make a new MTF camera that actually is a little bit larger and heavier than the full frame version ! All Sony Cameras are very compact for being full frame ! The Sony A7RV with a 61 megapixel sensor are SMALLER and more LIGHT WEIGHT than the Panasonic GH-7 MTF camera, that is too bad engineering of Panasonic !!! I do guess it is because Panasonic will not use more money on engineering for MTF cameras.

@Aleksilausti

16 күн бұрын

Makes total sense what you said and theorised here Richard. I have the G9ii and feel that with all the features and heat dissipation etc you could not make it much smaller so it made sense for Panasonic to just use the same chassis as the S5II. Despite this the G9II manages to be about 80g lighter than the S5II and with small MFT lenses is actually a very light weight camera system still. I never feel really that I would need a smaller camera although it would be fun of course, and I do hope against all odd it still might be possible to make one. The 25mp sensor in the G9II performs amazingly well in all areas. The image quality has taken a substantial leap since the previous generations.

@cem-session

16 күн бұрын

I would pay 2000 dollars for an high end compact camera. But only with a tilt and flip screen

@cameraprepper7938

16 күн бұрын

@@Aleksilausti Sony full frame Cameras are smaller and more light weight than GH-7 !

@backdrifter49

15 күн бұрын

Excellent video, Richard. Very reasonable perspective that I think we enthusiasts have to really try to understand. My maximum price would be US$1500, perhaps a little more if we got something GM5-sized or even G100/OM-5-sized. But at that price, it must have as many premium features as possible because you're also looking at some very compact and very capable APS-C and even full-frame cameras (X-T5, A7C series, etc). Personally, I am not at all interested in a "S9 with a M43 sensor". My wish list includes an EVF (even if not the best), IBIS, 4k60p video capability, the latest AF system and subject detection functionality, mechanical shutter (at least rear curtain, preferably full mechanical), hot shoe, mic input (via an adapter is okay), UHS-II SD card slot, and preferably a small, sculpted grip like the OM-5 or Panasonic's previous GX and LX series cameras, as well as weather-sealing and a high build quality. It's a lot to ask for, I know.

Wise words Richard. Heat and power are really limiting factors. That said, I'd still like to see an S9 sized body for M43 with the G9 II sensor and a viewfinder. PS - still loving the shirt!

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

hey Gordon thank you! Yes I would also love to see a m43 S9 with EVF and if possible a mechanical shutter as well. But to be honest, I don't really find the lack of a mechanical shutter a real issue when shooting with S9, so it should be even less issue with the faster m43 sensor. The problem would be the price though. I have a feeling it will be easily around US$1500 PS. I'm also loving the shirt!

@Raist3db

13 күн бұрын

I honestly don't agree with quite that. I think there's a lot that could be done to modernize a more compact m43rds camera within the current heat and power limits as technology marches forward. It would keep the system unique at what both Olympus and Panasonic said the unique selling proposition would be. Take that out and you end with a specialist nature niche that will continue to also erode, or a very specialist video/hybrid market that Panasonic has the door already of where to go next (FF). Remember in the era of 43rds Panasonic said they were not leaving the format and where committed to it- until they left it. A slimmer FF less heat/power FF will eventually happen, it's only a matter of time. in some ways for some things it already has happened. But sure, I still see advantages for video for Panasonic with the GH7.

I have always said that the major advantage of MFT is not the smaller body, but rather the smaller lenses.

@kalisti2323

16 күн бұрын

You're so right!

@fredio54

16 күн бұрын

Both things can and should be possible as evidenced by GM1, GM5, GX9, etc. :-)

@Seanonyoutube

16 күн бұрын

@@fredio54 given the size of my hands I’m actually not interested in small smaller bodies. A properly fitting body is just as ergonomically important as easy to handle lenses.

@shang-hsienyang1284

16 күн бұрын

The first criterion to convince yourself to shoot m43 is to convince yourself the 12-40mm f/2.8 is a full frame 24-80mm f/2.8 equivalent.

@Seanonyoutube

16 күн бұрын

@@shang-hsienyang1284 obviously it’s not 100% the same, but if you shoot in good light and don’t need super bokeh, it’s good enough and provides substantial size and weight savings.

Just to put things into perspective: the Sony A6700 is a pretty compact camera with all the features of a modern camera (PDAF tracking AF with AI/machine learning-based subject recognition, IBIS, 10bit video codecs + log profiles, modern 26 MP sensor). It should be possible, especially for a manufacturer with so much electronics expertise and in-house technology as Panasonic, to produce an MFT camera with a similar form factor and similar features, and perhaps even better IBIS. I think the real reason is that camera manufacturers at some point decided that compact cameras, even with MFT sensors, would no longer competitive against smartphones, and that the only way to persuade customers to still buy cameras was to max out their features, resulting in bigger bodies for higher prices. Compared to the a6700, the A9ii has almost twice (=1.94x) the body volume and one third more weight...

@wolfgangpetersun2730

16 күн бұрын

You're absolutely right, and they use the same A6700 APS-C body for their full-frame A7C II series (basically the same photo and video quality features as the A7 IV) and the A7CR (same photo quality as the A7R V and almost the same video quality as the A7R V). So Sony shows that it is possible to build a compact camera even for a full format sensor.

@justint8115

15 күн бұрын

@@wolfgangpetersun2730 i think that proves what Richard said, the body size is the same no matter you put a full frame, micro four thirds or APSC sensor. Sensor size is not affecting the body size much at all these days,

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

IBIS is way inferior to Panasonic m43 IBIS, it overheats in 4k60, 4k120 has a huge crop (hence way less data to process), the sony e mount is undersized for the sensor so you get classic -3EV in the corners, only 1 card slot, no full hdmi, way worse handling, small evf, etc, etc. No.

@pxperimenter

15 күн бұрын

@@haploguy If you need 4K60 and 4K120, dual card slots and full size HDMI, you're not looking for a small MFT camera, but for a camera in the class and with the size of the GH7. There are, however, other people, who do not need any of this and would prefer an MFT camera with a compact body... And this discussion here is actually about them.

@Raist3db

13 күн бұрын

@@haploguy but it does several things better than the Panasonic m43rds also.

Both Olympus and Panasonic made smaller cameras but no one bought them. I really do believe that if they were to do so again the people clamouring for them wouldn't buy them citing they were too expensive, too crippled in their features, etc etc. When the EP-5 came out no one bought it so it ended up being heavily discounted at a loss. The Pen F was introduced to address the criticisms and while it didn't tank as badly as the EP-5 it still wasn't a profitable camera. Panasonic made a premium compact in the form of the LX100 they ceased it because it didn't sell. Funnily enough Leica have persevered with it under their label and the latest model is sold out due to high demand.

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

exactly.

@RoderickJMacdonald

14 күн бұрын

Cameras are purchased by the same people who elect our governments.

I think the issue is people are judging the performance, size and price of the system on a camera level and sensor size level. They don’t consider the size of the lens and the amount of different lenses you have to carry in ff to cover the same range as in mft. at a slight trade off in image quality, many mft lenses replace the need of 2 or 3 bodies in ff. Think of the 40-150f2.8, or the 12-100f4. Effectively in use case, you can’t cheaply replace those lenses with just one lens and one body on ff, you’d need a bunch of primes and a big bag to carry all that.

Great explanation from an engineer’s point of view. The reality is that photographers do want a compact body with interchangeable lenses and are willing to sacrifice certain features to get it. What are they NOT willing to sacrifice? IBIS, RAW, great AF, a flip up/down rear LCD, EVF, and 24MP sensor. Will they be using that camera for wildlife? Probably not, which means users would be more willing to sacrifice pre-shot capture, and a large buffer for action. If camera makers open up a survey for all and not just “professionals” they would obtain a more accurate reading of what the majority of photographers really want. And I believe the cost ceiling would be around $1,200 USD.

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

For $1200 they can consider themselves lucky IF they get ibis and the 25MP sensor. If. The "large buffer" is just a bga dram unit, averaging $2 (or less in bulk). Burst rates? The video opengate fps limit is what they get on the photo side as well - same requirements for the image engine. So in reality they're not willing to sacrifice anything.

Yes, we WANT a new small camera M4/3 ! 🫠

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

"All I want is a small micro four thirds camera"

S9 existing shows they can make a high-end m43 camera in a gx9 body.

I’m surprised you didn’t point to the DLUX-8 from Leica as a great example of these consequences. Essentially they’ve used the old LX100ii platform, but they’ve made those software, processor, USBC, viewfinder, screen upgrades (and re-skinned the body) - and they’re selling for a premium price. It’s difficult for a lot of folk (me included) to see past that old sensor and lens… even with all the development costs of the enhanced components added.

The reason why I can't take any of these arguments seriously is that the Panasonic GX85 already felt soooo close, back in 2016. Great stills quality, great 4K video quality, no overheating, amazing IBIS, attractive small size. It only needed PDAF, mic jack, USB-C charging, and a couple more fps on the burst rate, and such a camera would basically be competitive today. Back in the day, Olympus and Panasonic were pushing the boundaries of what was possible with cameras. I just have trouble believing that somehow, all progress ended in 2016.

Don’t forget the G100. It’s small for a dslr-shaped camera.

Very nice video Richard, very good explanation and well thought. I have the G9II and I was expecting the S9 to come with M4/3 but after I saw the specs I was little bit disappointed compare to the price, so I think you are tottaly right, If S9 would come with M4/3 I would still buy another G9II for 2nd camera than an S9 M4/3 with such a price.

@TheRealRichardWong

13 күн бұрын

thank you Hugo!

Spot-on, Richard! Well done!

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

hey Hugh. thanks for watching! Yeah it will be interesting to see what happens next.

@dunsunyt

13 күн бұрын

Sorry but it's not spot on. The main reason why there is stil no small m43 camera is that there is a huge competition coming from the smartphones, and the fact that for example Sony has already released such cameras (a6700, A7C II). Another reason that they do not want to canibalize their own big models that are obviously kinda expensive. Anyways I still hope there is one day any camera like Pen F or GX9. If it's not the case I will change the system. Cheers

hello richard, thx for this excellent video. i have fallen in love once again with micro 4/3 cameras. the G9 II . the feature set is an outstanding upgrade ! and i don't have any complaints with the slight increase in size what so ever. the big bonus for micro 4/3 is the smaller, lighter lenses so overall the package is still very compact. the gx9 is an excellent compact camera especially when paired with the lumix 15 mm f1.7 lens. this camera was a commercial failure because it was packaged with a lens, we couldn't purchase this as a camera only. this was a huge marketing blunder causing the discontinuation ( read death of) the excellent gx9 which i still charish. zen billings in canada

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Thanks Zen! Glad to hear you are enjoying your G9II!

I'm still clinging to the idea of a G90 successor, but I know it would be somehow different in some of the minute things that make it my favourite camera.

Your analysis seems reasonable, thanks for that! But if I get this right, your premise is that people only say they want only a few new/better features in a compact body but if they get what they say they want, they would still opt for a full-featured but bigger camera. I don't know if that is really the case. It wasn't for me for sure. A couple of years ago I had to retire my old E-M1 and had to choose between the latest then E-M1 Mark III and the E-M5 Mark III which used already several years old technology. I was tempted to go for the newest toy but I couldn't get past the bigger size and weight that came with it. MFT's main appeal is the balance between size, weight and features. So I bought the E-M5 Mark III and I don't regret my choice. I wish there was something qualitatively new out there in a similar body but until it comes around, i will still use my old and somewhat stunted but otherwise perfectly adequate camera.

Wonderfully informative video! As for myself, I have reached the end of my gear acquisition with the Olympus E-M5 Mk III. I have many (too many) Olympus MFT cameras. I love them all! I would trade a few; for example, my E-PM2 should have replaced my E-PL1, but I still have them both. I have been a loyal fan of Olympus since the 1970s, and I'm not about to change now! I love other camera systems too, having recently become infatuated with, and acquiring, several Pentax Q series cameras. At this point in my life, I cannot imagine what new innovations will I come to regard as absolutely essential, but... who knows?

So miniaturization is something we accept as incurring cost in other markets like phones and laptops. It would require a mindset shift in the camera market but I don't think it would be difficult given how similar cameras are to computers and phones. I agree with Wong's desire for a super premium compact camera, one that has a completely metal exterior, would be very successful.

@marklion315

16 күн бұрын

Camera market is vastly smaller and shrinking, they cant justify the cost to miniaturize. That being said the S9 almost hit the mark, if only it had the option for a hotshoe evf and small lenses available at release.

@Carthodon

16 күн бұрын

@@marklion315 The market has already bottomed out, and it does not make sense that there wouldn't be a price point for a miniature camera when you have pricey cameras like the pixii, leica q and m series , Leica d-lux and fuji x100 series cameras shooting up in price and being sold out.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Hey @Carthodon i was going to bring up laptop in the video as well. But yes we don't seem to accept that smaller camera = give up some features even if the price is higher.

Thank you for all of your videos. Very informative and thought provoking. What is that lovely lens you have on the S9 at 6:16?

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Thank you, this is the lens: kzread.info/dash/bejne/d4x_uaeClN21nKg.html

Very good explanation. I needed that.

Great insight. What of using off the shelf 3 or 4nm components to offload much the heavy lifting? ARM SOCs for instance?

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

I don't think that'll work. My understanding is that the camera processor works very differently from the generic ARM chipset. So that's why camera companies always have to develop their own processor.

Very good discussion. Thank you!

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

thanks for watching :)

What a fantastic and competent presentation! I agree with everything you said there. I opted for an EM 10 mk4 with small kit lens as a walkaround camera. Until I can afford Leica.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Thank you Rod!

I agree, I think this happened to the Fuji XT50 and XT5 case regarding APS-C system...

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Yes exactly!

Ahhh! You’re a software engineer! No wonder your commentary is always so smart 😊

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Or you mean "boring" ? 🤣

Great discussion. Thank you.

@TheRealRichardWong

13 күн бұрын

Thanks for watching!

Answer: outboard cooling unit, in form of grip. Attached, it unlocks heavier features and proc speeds. User-selectable performance.

Excellent summary of reasons why the new small MFT camera hasn't appeared.

If you don't need an interchangeable lens system then a rebooted LX100 might work (with a prime rather than zoom lens). Certainly the D-LUX 8, while over-priced, seems to be pitching into that space. That said, it would need to compete well with the GRIII and X100 equivalents. Or a G100 but in a range-finder body? In the meantime, I'll have to stick with my G100, GX1, and E-PM1 setups. (I have searches set up for the GM1 and GF1 to alert me should one pop up in the NZ marketplace secondhand). Good video putting yourself in the manufacturer's shoes.

I would love to see a GX9 II that would be a MFT spin on the S9. Basically taking the G9 II and putting it in a rangefinder style body but also having a mic jack for video. Don't need all of the top video features, 60FPS 4K would be fine, also with PDAF and IBIS. But if they just make a few fast pancake primes for the S9, it'd probably just make me upgrade out of MFT.

If any outcome is a set of compromises, then they could "cripple" the LX100m2 by churning out a photo-centric camera with the same sensor, but with a fixed lens, tilting OLED screen, no EVF (they can sell it separately), a cleaner UI, the same battery, but with USB C charging, and built in film simulations. I'd buy that. Even without weather sealing and improved 4k video and mic jack.

I'm under the impression that people just want an updated rangefinder style M43 with internals of the G9II albeit with some video limitations. So basically the successor to the GX9. If this thing ever does come out though, it needs to be a premium built product with things like brass knobs and top/bottom plate, no visible screws, drilled inked in lettering... or whatever that can give off that "legacy/craftsman's piece of art" aura. The price needs to exceed what makes logical sense but not too much where a bit of GAS can't fill that gap. Because in an age where APS-C and FF cameras and lenses are getting so small and cheap competing solely on the merits of spec is a fools game. Fuji cameras, especially the X100 series is basically that; a camera that can masquerade as a fashion item and a Leica stand in. It might be weird to shell out so much for a M43 camera but with the new LUT format they are pushing and modern day specs, it should be more than enough for 99% of even the most dedicated street shooters for years to come, easily. The sex appeal should cover the rest. The thing is though... Panasonic's 水道哲学 business philosophy directly goes against this. I'm not sure if it applies to their camera division but it's probably why they leave the premium items to Leica and why their cameras always feel a bit cheap compared to other brands, even on the high end. Though it can be argued that the timing wasn't right, we as consumers had our chance with the GM1/5 and the GX9 and literally no one batted an eye. The GM5 and especially the GX9 puttered out of existence so fast, a lot of people didn't know they even existed. I can understand why Panasonic would be super reluctant to take a swing at this again.

I would love a new weather sealed GX8II rangefinder style body using the modern pdaf sensor in the G9II and GH7

We see it all the time on DPR Rich with wanting a smaller m4/3 body. I understand the constraints as well though as you pointed out. I use large tele lenses on m4/3 and to be honest, the size of the body makes little difference in handling. The lenses are where it counts. I would love to see smaller bodies and just hope m4/3 does get some new ones. Not crossing my fingers though.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Yes i think we are all really wanting a smaller m43 body with new features

Great explanation! However, smartphones on the other side get new features as well, but the size stays the same. I guess the increase in size is driven by demand for larger cameras by DSLR shooters. A lot of people complain about small grips. But the points stated in the video still apply, especially the costs for developing smaller bodies and a shrinking market, that makes it economically infeasible to offer smaller bodies. One solution could be to reuse generic smartphone hardware within a compact camera. If AI features and hardware encoding would be done on the smartphone chips a lot of development costs for custom chips could be saved.

@TheRealRichardWong

13 күн бұрын

hi @phatoni, my understanding is that smartphone and camera requires very different kind of processor and operating system so unfortunately it's very hard for a camera to use the latest off the shelf mobile chipset. Maybe that's also why some of the hybrid mobile/camera that was released in the past end up having two operating systems/processor. One for the phone features and one for the camera features

Letˋs face it: Sigma created the fp-l with a 61MP full frame sensor in a very small and robust body for a high price. No IB-stabilization and very reduced functionality. The result of the community was clear: No success! But I think that many people liked the design and the idea behind this construction. There must be some major reasons why this camera had so many “flaws”. And I’m pretty sure that Sigma knew all of these reasons but they still had the balls to built this camera because they knew that who ever in the market would try to build something like the fp-l would face the same limitations. I think this is simply based on the points you mentioned in this video. A high power camera in a small body is not possible in the moment. Technology sets its limits. Thank you very much for your great explanations, Richard.

@marklion315

16 күн бұрын

It would be nice if Sigma gave us access to the gyro data so we could stabilize in post. I feel this could be possible with a firmware update.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

One thing different is, Sigma's camera projects always appear to me like they are created as a "fun project" as it's really not their core business and they never really aim to sell millions of them. I have a feeling Sigma don't really rely on their cameras to make money as they sell tonnes of lenses for all the mounts anyway. All their cameras are like prototype/concept camera that somehow end up in the market.

And what about canon M50?

..I recently purchased the OM5 ...and I love it/.. I am also a Sony user/.with the evolution of generative AI...I love upscaling my images .. with a couple of primes is a no brainer ...🎉

The biggest m43 killer isn't full frame, it's actually 1" sensor smartphones and small apsc cameras. For photography purposes, it's hard to convince people to buy Olympus and Panasonic m43 compared to smaller Fujifilm cameras. Even Sony, Nikon or Canon's apsc offer better versatility when you factor in options from Tamron, Sigma, and Viltrox. Therefore I believe Panasonic should just focus on video and Olympus should focus on macro, that's the main reason people buy them for.

A new version of the Olympus PM1 or LUMIX GM1, 16 mega pixel sensor but optimised for low light sensitivity to compete against phone cameras at events and venues. No articulated screen as makes the camera too bulky. Make sure there is an extra physical dial control so the cameras have an advantage over a phone as per the EPL10. Built in IS, that can be optimised for shooting portrait video if the cameras is used rotated. Built in flash and hot shoe. Mic input for blogging or allow the hot shoe to take a mic accessory. Keep the price under that of a medium level phone so around €750.

I would love a G100 with the G9II sensor and the DR-Boost. It would be a perfect second/backup camera to use and stil get the same image quality of both cameras. Now i either need 2 x G9II or edit the non G9II camera to look the same as G9II.

I think it has way more to do with the consumer camera market being near non-existent in 2024. When M43’s cameras had their hay day 2009-2013, most people had a point and shoot camera for family photos. Smartphone cameras weren’t there yet. Anyone who came up against the low light limitations of point and shoots found their way to those great compact M43s cameras - like the Pen EPL series. Now even the family members of mine who used to carry a DSLR everywhere are just using their phones too. Panasonic has stretched the Micro 4/3 platform as a professional tool, and it benefits from this great library of lenses. There’s more money in that than any consumer compact camera. It would not be technically hard at all to upgrade many of the 10-year old 16MP era M43 cameras (GX85, GM1, GM5, Pen F) to the current 5-year old 20mp sensor, just like the cameras that did get the upgrade (Em10, EM5, etc) without changing their dimensions. But they wouldn’t sell, for rhe same reason you can’t even buy a new Canon PowerShot anymore. There’s enough of a market to drive the price of these cameras up used, but once new supply is there I just can’t see it. Fujifilm got the hype machine trending enough to make it but this is such a niche market I don’t think there’s room for anyone else.

S9 put RX100M7 or GM1 eyepiece and Popup flash? 😁

How about a gx8 mark ii? Seems like with the extra space with the grip could help with space for keeping cool, and the processor, and still gives photographers the EVF, and gives the videographers the Flippy screen and mic jac. They could redesign the grip a bit, as the original is kinda uncomfortable. The gf3, gf5, g3 style grip would be pretty cool! The g3, which had a smaller grip than the g5, g6, g7, g9, is also a cool compact design, that still has an evf, and could probably house a bigger processor.

For such a thing to be possible they need 1. a modular board design that can scale based on features, ports, battery and cooling between both mounts (m43 and L mount) 2. a modular image engine design where features (AF capability, photo burst rates, video specs) can be physically removed from the board layout OR a way to turn them off completely in firmware so they don't use power - second option is more likely since you'd rather bulk order one part than 3 or 4 based on sku demand The rest will literally be the same. Both of these endeavors are expensive and I doubt any m43 vendor has the resources, plus it will take years to develop for uncertain ROI.

There's one, called E-P7 and it is fantastic.

GF1 for me too, but then nothing until GH5 10 years later, but then a used GX9 shortly later, which for me is the GF1 modern version. A compact G9 mk 2 would be awesome though.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Hi Five for the GF1!!

@fredio54

15 күн бұрын

@@TheRealRichardWong the body of mine was deformed from multiple severe drops. I took literally tens of thousands of photos as per the built in shutter stats. Can't recall the exact number. Have a record somewhere. I wish I had the leica 15 and oly 45 back then. The 14-140 mk1 was good, but nit in low light or indoors.

There’s no new small cameras right now to protect the X100 and Ricoh GR. Give it enough time and you’ll likely only see a modest refresh of the Pen F, with a price hike.

Very good video. The biggest miss with OM Systems is not releasing a new Pen F with the popularity of similar cameras in the same segments. I think the main reason that OM System is dropping the ball on this is because they don't have the capacity/bandwidth to maintain more product lines than they currently do. They are a very, VERY SMALL company now - almost like an artisan workshop. So they have to move up the value chain and offer fewer, but more premium, higher priced products with a higher margin. There are two ways to achieve that: top of the line flagship products like the OM1 series. And re-released older models like the E-M1III with costs savings (cheaper body, cheaper parts) and no development costs which basically got rebranded as the OM5. Small, compact cameras do not fit that strategy, they're not high margin enough and OM System as that small player now cannot afford to play they low margin game.

If we take the fact that the G92 and the S5 2X are the same body, can we expect that an S9 body with a micro for third sensor will be coming? Also perhaps GH7 larger body will be the same body as the next S1.

I guess the manufacturers are trying to add more and more features… so yeah the new cameras are bigger. I’m trying to decide on a MFT camera to shoot real estate - but finding one is pretty difficult. I want it to be at least 25mp, support 3 or 5 AE bracket but allowing me to vary the range (lumix don’t do this) and also allow delayed shooting on the bracket shot - pana does this but apparently OM don’t. It also needs a hot shoe mount for a flash trigger. Ideally good AF and 4K50p at 10 bit colour with 150mbits. If any of the current cameras did it even at the GH7 price I’d pay it.

@boggisthecat

16 күн бұрын

You have oddly specific technical points in there. The Olympus 8-25 f4 would likely be a good fit for your requirements, and possibly the LUMIX G9 II or the older OM-1 (mark I) as a suitable body. Video would be better on the G9 II. Perhaps look at the specifications of these two. Hand-held high resolution mode on the OM-1 will deliver 50 Mpixel. Why you’d actually need that, I don’t know.

@southcoastpix9678

15 күн бұрын

@@boggisthecat cheers. Yeah I was reading about handheld but I read / watched issues with household lights especially fluros. And yeah, RE is a little different to birding etc that OM is renown for. I've already got the Laowa 7.5 f2, 8-18 Pana/ Leica and the Para 7-14 but yeah the Olympus ones do look like they are better glass.

@boggisthecat

15 күн бұрын

@@southcoastpix9678 Lighting is a good point. Although I would think you’d only see issues with fast shutter speeds. (All lights pulse at mains frequency or higher. LED is the most abrupt transition - fully on to fully off at a high frequency.) Video has always had to work around this issue. Perhaps you could rent or borrow a G9 II and / or GH7 to try? Often a feature you may think is really important turns out to be unnecessary.

Don’t want a better sensor or burst rate, or subject detection, just small, attractive rangefinder style with a modern evf and usb-c

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

make a 3d printed case and stick your iphone inside.

@paul--b

15 күн бұрын

@@haploguy I said attractive.. and where’s the EVF?

For a really premium small and light MFT (photo centric) cam I would nearly pay the same price as for the G9ii as I‘ll use it even more often and for me ergonomics, size, design is even more important than most of the tech features. But some core specs should be there: Highly improved mobil connectivity, More than 20mpx, Hybrid autofocus, superior IBIS, improved dynamic range, good tilting viewfinder. No need for high burst rates or high level video capabilities.

We need new gx and lx cameras with Real tinme lut feature. S9 should have been a fixed lens camera to make sense. There is market for that now. What we need now is gx10 with gx80 size and controls but with mic jack. Live nd if possible like those on olympus cameras. DR boost. Compact. Stylish. Pop up flash. Good evf. And a new Lx100 with nd filter and leaf shutter. Super stylish and retro with manual controls. I wish if it can do infrared photography with switching the IR cut filter to the side. No permanent conversation needed. How cool that will be?? Real time luts on this package will be more fun and the community can create and share recipes like fuji. But as u said the price am willing to pay is max at 1200 USD😅 guess its going to be only in a wishlist.

I feel the way forward is to revert back to the old camcorder shape with interchangeable lenses. A GH7 in the shape of a small URSA Mini. 🤔

I think you hit all the nails on the head with this one! So nothing to add, but Lumix is really in a tough spot. They simply can't develop a small camera within the profit they expect from it, so they need to sacrifice so much on capability that the market size drops, or use leftover technology years later than the market wants. Personally I think external EVF is a great idea, keep that headline below $1200 with the 25mp sensor and let people decide if they care enough to add it back.

I doubt it's mainly the technical reasons why we don't see small (and/or affordable) M43 cameras. I think it's just easier to sell a limited amount of enthusiasts with a lot of money very expensive, maximum featured cameras and lenses with a big margin. My guess is: There isn't really enough demand for a low margin, high volume approach in the camera sector anymore. Even the few new point & shoots, speciality and retro cameras are exclusively aimed at high price, high margin, low volume nowadays. That said, I would buy a decently priced small M43 to replace my 10 year old one, if it had some better features, even if compromising. I just love the small form factor of body and lenses and I really don't need full frame or crop sensors (or 4K+ video) for anything. But that's just me I guess...

@petercofrancesco9812

16 күн бұрын

Agreed. The camera companies long ago decided not compete with smart phones and abandoned that market.

I am a GX-7 owner that held out as long as I could. Just bought a Fujifilm XT-50. It is only slightly heavier than my GX-7 and is basically the same dimensions (thinner but slightly taller). Weight of XT-50 plus the sigma 2.8 18-50 is LESS than the GX7 + Pany 2.8 12-35. All of this with a larger sensor. So this CAN be done. If course Fuji faces the same issues that you bring up, XT-50 is almost as expensive at the XT-5 but with fewer features. But for me, I don't care about the extra features in the XT-5, and I am willing to pay a fair bit for the smaller size.

It just needs to be a rangefinder style. Wouldn't that make the body more compact?

They should have carried on making the gx9. I think people would still be buying it. It's still a really good camera. Same goes for the gx80. Also being older technology it may have been possible to lower the price. There are a lot of people (me included) that cannot afford a super expensive camera.

@TheRealRichardWong

13 күн бұрын

@@philby1 I agree 👍

@taterandy3958

11 күн бұрын

💯👍🏾 who can afford the newest cameras for the prices the are selling the S9 i can buy two EM 10s or a GX 80

I bought the gx800 in 2018 and I love it, but I would love to have an evf. The price at the time was 300 dollars and today I could pay 500-600 dollars

Because they want to die and are caving their own tomb. They seem to be against doing anything that might sell well to their user base... 😅

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

both oympus and panasonic made small cameras and nobody bought them. as loud as the complainers are they are equally insolvent.

It all comes down to the difference between the pro and hobbyist. Pros want full features, and size is not the biggest concern. They also have more to spend on a cam, thus more profit margin. Hobbyists want small and reasonably priced. And most simply go with their phone. A small Lumix is thought of by most as a compact cam, and that market is dead.

@angeloplayforone

15 күн бұрын

Any enthusiast have enough money to buy Nikon Z9 or other expensive cameras. Many birders and wildlife photographers are not professional but hobbyist but have plenty of money to buy expensive camera and lenses.

@lanceevans1689

15 күн бұрын

@@angeloplayforone Yes, many have the money to buy it. However if you do a simple google search for small camera sales over the last decade, you will see those sales numbers are in sharp decline. People simply do not want them any longer, outside a very small niche here and there, like you mention. But that isn't nearly enough to keep production lines going. Literally BILLIONS of people feel their phone is good enough. I bought a G85 years ago (with the nice 12-60 included!) for $600. You know Lumix didn't make much on it. But they likely sold hundreds of thousands of them. That market isn't there now. I also bought a GH6, which they likely made a good chunk on, even if they didn't sell huge numbers it was enough to justify the GH7. Also keep in mind we aren't talking about those cute small cameras that shot film. Digital cameras have tons of tech that costs a lot of money to develop, license, build, etc. The overhead is insane compared to building film cameras.

@lanceevans1689

15 күн бұрын

@@angeloplayforone Let me also add a story: I was in B&H Photo some years back, chatting with one of the guys I've known for decades. He was telling me that most of the high-end camera sales are not to pro shooters. Most are to dentists from NJ who take photos of their families. Talk about niche! The point being, the photo market is quite complex. Until you see actual sales markets and numbers, all of this "should be" stuff is just guessing in the wind.

Hi Richard, I think it is pity the companies cannot live with stock components to keep the price lower. I understand size is not an easy issue. Maybe external solutions like external EVF or control/audio/lighting "interface-hub" is a possibility to reduce body size. Besides i would wish bigger screen. Maybe external field monitors/EVF can do some magic? Of course an upgraded GX8 with screen of GH7 would be marvellous too.

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

I think that would be a possible solution. However external/optional solution does also bring a lot of issues, like the R&D for external parts usually is more expensive as you need to design port/connectors..etc, also extra inventories which could end up in the shop/warehouse if no one wants to buy them. Panasonic stop making battery grips for the GH6/GH7 for this reason I think

Do we need to look farther than the fuji x100 to see that a small compact camera can be done well?

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

That is a dogshit camera. It sells because it became a tiktok meme not because it'sa good camera.

@gobgobcachoo

15 күн бұрын

​@@haploguyits been a great camera system before tiktok even existed.

The Canon R8 is $1300 and weighs 461 grams. M43 can’t compete on price anymore so they have two options: 1. the heavy, expensive ultra-pro route like the GH7 2. the expensive lifestyle camera that equals the Fujifilm X100 VI in perceived performance while beating it on style, weight and size. 1 is the safe play, 2 is a risk but it can bring much profit if done right - the lens needs to be special.

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

it has no ibis. good luck losing 5 stops of light to get your shot.

@adidabax6809

15 күн бұрын

The s9 is the same. The s9 is the gx9 body. People would pay for the s9 body and m43 lenses.

@FierceSleepingDog

13 күн бұрын

I like my OM-1 and other MFT gear...to include an EXCELLENT lens library. Go be happy with your R8

I agree that I would essentially like a G9 ii in a GX9 body even if it's $1599. Really I would just like a GX9 with improved video features. I like the small, rangefinder form factor of the GX9. I've found the S9 excellent and I don't miss the mechanical shutter at all (one thing you did not mention is that you could save money not including a mechanical shutter). I do miss having a viewfinder on the S9 though, especially on bright sunny days.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

hey John, Would the S9 body be ok for the same price you mentioned if Panasonic can fit a EVF + mech shutter to it?

@JohnRobertsTV

14 күн бұрын

@TheRealRichardWong The S9 body works. I use the small rig grip with the S9, but it would be less needed on smaller M43 lenses. BTW very nice discussion of issues with tech and size reduction. I also love your camera reviews.

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

@@JohnRobertsTV Thank you very much John!

Like it or not this is an accurate reality check. As far as price we will either have to take older components or fewer cutting edge features. The same way that the G9 Mark II and the S5 Mark II share the same body probably means that a new MFT camera will share a body/battery with the S9. Price advantage won't come from OM.. they price everything at a premium. Lumix might be able to use off the shelf components of the G100.. and build it into an attractive rangefinder body. I wouldn't mind it myself if they just took the GX8 body with that excellent grip and viewfinder.. keep the mic..add earphone.. we don't need all the latest video.. LUTs and Leica Monochrome would be nice. Don't leave out fun colors for the US market like GM1. I vote for the bigger sensor and stabilization. Might be able to do that for $1399.. maybe. Kit it up with a decent Leica co branded lens option as well and emphasize that connection.. classic camera looks are going to be very important..

Great rundown, Richard! Awesome stuff mate!

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

thanks Shane!

The new S1 ii camera will be bigger than first one? ;) Compact cameras have lost the battle to smartphones with computational photography on board. The user wants to get the result here and now, without the need to transfer the material to a computer and without lengthy manual post-processing.

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

I think the S1II (if there will be one) may not necessarily be larger than the first one as the S1 is really oversized to target pro users, so I believe it is possible to reduce the size, or fit more into the same size body.

Maybe the problem is us still holding to m4/3? Even Panasonic moved their compact camera that should be better than a smartphone (gx8 range) to full frame (s9).

It was interesting to find out your opinion, Richard ! In my opinion, there is no problem for Panasonic and OMS to build tiny cameras. The problem is that phones are much smaller and a better option for the people which want portability. The entry level cameras are in competition with the phones and all the producers knows that entry level cameras have no future. Cameras cannot win portability competition against phones. The users which are still buying cameras are enthuziastic users which demands performance : big buffer, fast frame rate, good battery, recoding movies without heating, big EVF....etc.

I wonder if you can't make an M43 camera just for photography. Or are we all hybrids now? Because the real problem with oversizing is the video. Also surprising are some new lenses in M43 that already seem to be full frame due to size and price.

Oh Richard! You have destroyed my latest video 😂This is hilarious!!! 😂 Thank you for your thorough insight (and shattering my M43 dream)

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

LOL I've watched your video last night just before i sleep as well! I thought your was a reaction to mine :P Hey we can still dream about our perfect camera and the camera god may deliver to us one day!

@BenFox01

14 күн бұрын

​@@TheRealRichardWong Haha Maybe I will change the Title and thumbnail to a picture of you saying "Richard Wong destroyed my M43 Dream!" KZread love online BEEF!!! 😄

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

@@BenFox01 lol DO IT!!! (Palpatine voice)

@BenFox01

14 күн бұрын

@@TheRealRichardWong 😈

Actually an S9 sized M43 camera isn't a bad idea, consider all the smaller M43 lenses which L mount doesn't and/or couldn't offer.

The problem is that the old cameras are not available anymore. I cannot buy new LX100 II, there is nothing like GX80 either. My LX100 died and if I want to keep the same form factor of the camera, I will have to switch to Sony A6x00 (which means larger lenses).

Thanks for your interesting thoughts! Still I don’t buy it completely, because there are some other examples like the S5 being much smaller than its predecessor S1. And Olympus/OM System even managed to shrink existing cameras significantly, as far as I know without a new processor: E-M1 II to E-M5 III and E-M1 III to OM-5.

One "hopeful" sign is that Panasonic seems to have preserved the tooling to re-issue the FZ80. In particular, the molds to create a plastic camera body can be extremely expensive to create from scratch, even with CAD and 3D printing. That Panasonic managed to substitute in a USB-C connector in the new FZ-80 sheds new light on OM System's badly gauged retention of the old USB connector in the OM-5. Perhaps OM didn't have the ability to change the physical layout of the body. I also wonder if OM System inherited the tooling for, say, the PEN-F. If not, starting from scratch on a new PEN-F would be enormously expensive for a company that shows no sign of being rich enough to do so. And as you say, it would be difficult to cram all the newest MFT tech into a body as compact as a PEN-F or GX-9. At very least an accommodation will need to be made for a larger battery. I'm hoping that a tech-aggressive company like DJI will take on the compact MFT challenge. DJI seems to be extraordinarily innovative AND responsive to user needs, as the Pocket 3 demonstrates. DJI is already a member of the MFT alliance.

@backdrifter49

15 күн бұрын

DJI is also a member of the L-Mount Alliance and I would love to see what they could come up with in the mirrorless space. Pretty much everything they currently make is so impressive from a technical perspective, that I think they could really do some amazing things with stabilization, computational photography features, autofocus, UI and interface, app/mobile integration, etc.

I can tell you 16mpx good full HD and eye autofocus… good battery 😅 but I understand

I think that there is not enough market for small cameras since it was killed by the cell phones. So if the camera has to compete in the full frame market for professional photographers who make money of it, the customer expect from them to arrive with a BIG camera. If they will arrive to an event they shoot and get payed with small camera then it will be considered as if they are armatures. So the punch line is that the small camera market is dead

@3dtrip870

14 күн бұрын

Obviously, it’s not, look at Fuji. and not everybody’s worried about shooting professional all the time; sometimes you just want a good tiny camera to throw in your pocket that’s better than your cell phone

I've been thinking about getting a gx85 for a walk around all day every day camera

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Good choice Ali!

@A1Bokeh

15 күн бұрын

@@TheRealRichardWong that camera always impressed me when I had it

I would like to see a small mft camera with IBIS and the GH5S sensor

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

I wonder if IBIS can work with the oversized sensor

If Panasonic made a smaller range finder style of the G9ii it would not sell for $1000, they would price it at least $1399, which I think would be a fair price as the g9ii is $1899.

I would be interested in a compact MFT with modern specs, but I feel Fuji and Ricoh have already cornered that market. With the whole S9 debacle, call it what you like, I dont see Panasonic doing it anytime soon.

I’m sure it’s coming, camera manufacturers have seen the want for compact street cameras, it just takes 3-5 years to create a new camera. I suspect that we will see a suddenly explosion of niche compacts from every major manufacturer to compete with the GRIII and X100.

Just remake an Limited edition of GM1. Same specs only better AF. Those are not valued by specs, will be valued by their limited qty.

People make the bold assumption that loads of features make for a better camera. I look at where I’ve seen the best photography, and modern cameras don’t factor into it. It’s the camera that the photographer knows how to use - most new cameras are far too complex for their owners to know how to use all or even most of the features. I did much of my best work with a Nikon F3, which is as simple as cameras get. Digital imaging has changed the game, there are methods that should offer advantages, which should be included. One such method is HDR. HDR as the name implies allows the camera to have more dynamic range, but the way image bracketing is done is still stuck in the film ere. Take an image, take another image, take a third image…. If there is something moving in the image, it’s in multiple places. With digital once the shutter is open the image begins to build. You could make the exposure the length of the longest exposure of the old method, but copy the sensor data at key points along the way, so you could have -2 stops, -1 stop, center, +1 stop and +2 stops and moving object will start at the same point.

Richard, I didn't realise you were an EE. Did you study at Auckland or before you moved? I did my grad work in speech processing at UoA in the late 80's, early 90's and was on faculty till 95. Probabaly before your time.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

Mark, yeap I got both my BE (E&E) and ME (E&E) from Auckland Uni :) I think you were probably just before me, I think I started my first year BE back in 1995 or 1996.

@MarkMcLT

15 күн бұрын

@TheRealRichardWong Ah, very cool. I was a contemporary of Mark Andrews, Grant Covic, Kevin Sowerby etc. Did my research under Bernard Guillemin. Taught undergrad Networks and Signals, postgrad DSP etc. Left to join Motorola corporate research.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

@@MarkMcLT those are some really familiar names!! I went to lectures by most of these guys! Can't really remember what i learnt though haha

perfect and comprehensive video. Thank you. Please, Richard, tell Panasonic if it would be a good idea to make a real PHOTO camera. Wlth only basic video features. BUT with every possible serious photography ones. There is a beautiful and "alive" world out there who love the true photography and does not give a damn about video. Its the world that believes that photography is the real art of expression. The process, the interaction, the editing, the sense and the smell of the printed paper... Its the world who want to take that perfect rangefinder Leica camera with ONLY the 50mm lens attached for everything and for life! BUT, they cannot afford it!!! On the other hand, many, like me love Panasonic and re proud users of Lumix cameras. We know Panasonic is a video oriented company. In fact, they re the very best. But, as a pure photographer, i think that nonw can prevent me from dreaming... Richard, i appreciate...

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

I think with Panasonic's strong video focus means it's unlikely they will bring out a new camera that has only basic video features. In some way it doesn't make sense for them to do that as well as all the video features are already there developed and it cost them nothing to include them as they will be using the same processor/sensor anyway. But it would cost them money if they remove them as the sales number would probably be less. Even more photo oriented brands like Nikon is making their cameras more and more video focused. Look at the Nikon Zf and Z6III, a lot of the design/features are focusing more for videographers than photographers. Fujifilm is kind of the same (but at least the XT5 is more photo focus than the XT4) I don't disagree with you though, i would love to see some 100% (or 90%) photo focus camera from Panasonic

I want panoramic camera - Digital Xpan.

So basically all the upgrades that Sony did on the a6700 apsc camera, but on a 4/3 camera.

Let's put it this way... If Ricoh can manufacture a GRIII, Panasonic could manufacture a revisited GF 😎😁 😉 And as always, I'm looking forward to your next video 😊

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

I'm sure 1080p and dogpoop IBIS will be major selling point that will help m43 street cred and boost sales.

@TheRealRichardWong

14 күн бұрын

Thank you Cyril!! :) The Ricoh GRIII is a really cool compact camera. I wouldn't mind having one myself and go out shoot some street photos with it. But if you look at the tech/specs of the GRIII, I would say apart from it having PDAF, a GX85 is already much more advanced than it.

Hmm, plasticy body? A metal body may be more expensive but is more attractive to a buyer, they feel nicer, and more importantly conduct heat better. The GH4 was constructed as one massive heat sink and doesn't get hot. These are valid reason for not using a cheap plastic body.

I have a Panasonic G3, GX9, and GH3, 4, 5, 6. All of them are a lot easier to carry around than a Canon F1n. Would rather see Panasonic develop a new version of the 20mm f1.7 with better auto focus.

The G100 has most of the modern features you referred to. Its cheap (about $700....) Your premiss with is not relevent! A small, inexpensive micro 4/3 camera, with modern features already exists. BTW from what I know, it doesn't sell that well.

@justint8115

15 күн бұрын

Not really, it doesn't have IBIS, doesn't have PDAF, has the older AF system, has the older sensor. It's missing what most people want for a new m43 camera

@backdrifter49

15 күн бұрын

@@justint8115 Also not weather-sealed and very cheap feeling.

@TheRealRichardWong

15 күн бұрын

I think if panasonic can add IBIS + PDAF to G100D then a lot of people would be very happy. But then it will probably require the new processor, new battery.,,etc which means price will be double of the current price.

@jupiterman7

15 күн бұрын

No Ibis no $$$

@NiSE_Rafter

14 күн бұрын

​​@@jupiterman7Why are people so caught up on ibis? Lumix lenses have OIS it can't be that big of a deal can it? I'm used to my Nikon DSLR only having stabilization being built into the lenses and it's not been an issue.

Even if the weren't a big success they made a statement and building the brand. That is important. And an evf isn't necessary on a small camera. For a small camera it's ok if the video features are less than top notch and the recording time are limited. Also not necessary with high speed photo. Which means less need for bulky cooling. The GX 80/85 isn't that big and the GX 800/850 even smaller and the first have evf. Without high res video recording they can make an ultra low power Venus Engine with slightly less performance and still tic most boxes for a small streetphoto camera and no need for a giant battery.

On PenF- PenF had many compromises for its target market (hurts because it did get several things right too). Slow random turn-on, FAS LCD instead of TILT, no PdAF, shady AF in moderate to low light specially with several Panasonic lenses like the very key and nice 15mm F1.7. GM5 was miss marketed and it begs the question: would a GM5 capture more attention in a world where cameras with bigger sensors have significantly shrunk? Honestly, if the answer is, "we really can't sell a modern small compact m43rds camera even if the price has to be $1,500 USD" then the answer may very well be "m43rds market and case has slowly vanished." I don't think that's the case, but seems to me the inevitable conclusion.

Why not release an LX100-iii with improved specs, 25mp sensor, pdaf, open gate recording, 60fps, bigger battery, tilt screen, and call it a day.

Richard we have small and very capable compact cameras from Sony and Fuji and those use a bigger sensor that uses more resources. Panasonic and OM System have neglected their user base and their demands. They sold very well when it was all about small and compact but with great specs and awesome small well priced lenses. Sony also have A7c, A7c ii and A7R. No excuses!

@backdrifter49

15 күн бұрын

Sony sells way more cameras than Panasonic and probably knew their A7C series would be worth the R&D investment.

@haploguy

15 күн бұрын

bigger sensor doesn't use "more" resources lol. it's the processor that uses it, and that is a function of the datarates.