Is It Time to Give Up on Hydrogen?!

Автокөліктер мен көлік құралдары

Hydrogen - the answer to our clean energy needs or a terrible idea?! This energy source is as divisive as it is energy dense. In theory clean to use and produce, in reality often embroiled in the fossil fuel industry. However, surely it must be good for something? Robert and Imogen decided to put Hydrogen to the test to see how it stacks up for a whole host of uses from fuel cell vehicles to heating and steel making. Prepare yourself for low rent Phil and Holly....!
00:00 Introduction
01:13 Hydrogen primer
02:01 A little rant
02:56 What is it good for?
04:19 Why is it attractive?
05:19 Energy Storage
05:38 Domestic Heating
06:57 Gas Fired Power Stations
07:35 Aviation
08:29 Fuelling Ships
09:19 Big Transport
10:43 Passenger Cars
10:50 Cement and Steel
12:19 Fertiliser
13:30 Loss making stuff
16:03 Concluding thoughts
Links:
Michael Liebreich's talk at World Hydrogen Congress 2022 - vimeo.com/761934482
Fully Charged Show Episode on Hydrogen JCB - • Green Hydrogen: The So...
Visit our LIVE exhibitions in Australia, UK, USA, Canada & Europe: fullycharged.live/
Become a Patreon: / fullychargedshow
Become a KZread member: use JOIN button above Subscribe to Fully Charged & the Everything Electric channels
Subscribe for episode alerts and the Fully Charged newsletter: fullycharged.show/zap-sign-up/
Visit: FullyCharged.Show
Find us on Twitter: / fullychargedshw
Follow us on Instagram: / fullychargedshow
For Clean Energy and Home Tech take a look at the @EverythingElectricShow
#cleanenergy #hydrogen #electrification #renewables #hydrogenpower #hydrogen fuelcell #battery #batteryelectric #electricvehicles #EVBatteries #renewables #industry #netzero #transprot #electricity #energy

Пікірлер: 1 400

  • @sambarrett1993
    @sambarrett1993 Жыл бұрын

    I visited an Australian coal mine in the 1990s. The really big diggers were running on electricity via huge extension cords.

  • @Alrukitaf

    @Alrukitaf

    Жыл бұрын

    Had me going there. Oh, the sarcasm… how very witty. But there’s bigger and bigger machinery capable of being battery driven. Such as 90-ton trucks. Also, battery electric trains are taking ore to ports, charging batteries with regenerative braking, and because they’re lighter on the way back, so the batteries don’t require recharging because there’s enough power from the regeneration on the outbound, downhill trip.

  • @JT-zl8yp

    @JT-zl8yp

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Alrukitaf battery electric trains are stupid...imo....just use an overhead/catenary wire for continuos electricity like a passenger/metro train

  • @gillo100

    @gillo100

    Жыл бұрын

    @@JT-zl8yp The train he is referring to doesn't need any external power source. It gets filled up at the mine and weighs lets say 1000tonnes, rolls down a big hill charging the battery, gets to port, unloads to 200tonnes, (numbers made up but you get the idea) can use the energy in battery to power itself to get back up the hill, no charging necessary. It uses the potential energy of the ore being high up to power its complete journey. Its clever but its a very niche case.

  • @timfreeman2603

    @timfreeman2603

    Жыл бұрын

    Still do it today in parts of QLD, Australia. Makes sense to co-locate the mines and their main customer the coal power plants. Majority of coal is however exported or coking coal.

  • @JT-zl8yp

    @JT-zl8yp

    Жыл бұрын

    @@gillo100 Trains cant just roll down a hill....trains cant go down steep hills like cars/trucks because they are much heavy and it would be very difficult for breaks to stop them....even if I agree with your statement....regenrative braking can charge a train to 10 or 15% maybe...but not 100%

  • @MADWAVE_CGI
    @MADWAVE_CGI Жыл бұрын

    Everyone on this planet should watch these videos and learn what's right and wrong about the reality of energy and take it as a guide for the future generation. thanks, Robert and all the FCS team.

  • @alanhat5252

    @alanhat5252

    Жыл бұрын

    Whilst not strictly inaccurate this show is frequently guilty of oversimplification. For instance in this video they imply that mining is exclusively fueled by Diesel when it isn't. JCB are selling hydrogen-powered kit (we see some in the background) & a lot of the really big mining machines have been electric for many decades simply because it would take more than a day to transfer a day's worth of Diesel into the machine. It's my understanding that quite a lot of underground machinery is electric too because of fumes.

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    @@alanhat5252 Hmm, fumes, I'm glad you mentioned that ... I once worked as a gold miner for an entire afternoon on the eastern side of Jo'berg. The mine was about a mile deep; the western drives were almost 12000 ft deep. Much to my surprise the mine was full of railways used for materials handling and moving the staff to the faces or "drives", as we used to say in the dark of an afternoon shift, over five thousand feet deep. The locomotives used were all diesel shunter type units running on el cheapo diesel. It was explained the exhaust from the diesel engines were fed into a water tank a bit bigger than a coffin, say. The particulates were trapped in the water and the gases which bubbled off were sucked out of the mine through exhaust vent systems The noise of the ducted air extraction vents in the railway galleries was absolutely deafening. They'd have anyone's wig off in an instant. In fact the only reason we wore hard hats was to keep our partings straight, not a lot of people know that. This was nearly fifty years ago so the South African engineers had probably sorted out the poisonous gas issue years before I started producing gold. Sometimes it's amazing what you learn, five thousand feet below ground.

  • @alanhat5252

    @alanhat5252

    Жыл бұрын

    @@t1n4444 that sounds like a well managed mine.

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    @@alanhat5252 Indeed, I had very little to do. Which is why South Africa works so well today.

  • @jameswyatt631

    @jameswyatt631

    Жыл бұрын

    @@alanhat5252 Good points Alan. I have only just discovered this channel. I guess it depends on the target audience which appears to be those not particularly technically literate or informed but who need, or should have, a basic understanding of the issues. My first impression is that this program makes the various issues very accessible and clear. Should there be suggestions as to where to find other more detailed and technical content? Quite possibly.

  • @francisboyle1739
    @francisboyle1739 Жыл бұрын

    The verdict on steel and cement surprised me too. Perhaps an an episode on this is in order.

  • @AmateurBMS

    @AmateurBMS

    Жыл бұрын

    I do think we need more clarification, especially regarding steel. The big issue for hydrogen here is to strip the oxygen from the iron ore, not heat. Traditionally carbon has been used for this as well as for heat.

  • @0utcastAussie

    @0utcastAussie

    Жыл бұрын

    Having worked in a cement factory I'm still working out how electricity could perform the "firing" process ? I should add that I worked there in the mid 80's so the process most likely has changed but back then coal dust was pumped though a nozzle in the kiln which looks like a Saturn Rocket laying on its side and slowly rotating. Obviously clinker is tumbling inside but you can walk right up to the kiln door and look through a peepy hole (Cold air is blasting on the door) and it really does look like your looking into what I imagine Hades would be like ! (The "Flame" is further down the tube but it illuminates everything inside).

  • @_aullik

    @_aullik

    Жыл бұрын

    that statement honestly makes little sense. Hydrogen for heat is a no, but there are different chemical processes and some of them might use hydrogen. Both for iron and for cement. There are generally more of those statements here that I just find confusing. In certain aviation applications hydrogen and its derivatives make a lot of sense. Sure you cannot use traditional aircraft for normal hydrogen but there are alternative air frames that give more space. Hydrogen bound with magnesium or aluminum offers extremely good energy density for a higher production cost. We might just use synthetic fuel which again is a hydrogen derivative. The power station answer should have been a maybe in my books. As for big machines that should be a maybe to instead of a yes. Its only worth in niche cases and I'm not sure they are enough to sustain an industry around it.

  • @_aullik

    @_aullik

    Жыл бұрын

    @@0utcastAussie Electric heat can always be created by resistive heating. Meaning there is some ceramic where you force electricity through to get it to glow. Just make sure it can get really hot without melting.

  • @asdmcc2
    @asdmcc2 Жыл бұрын

    Honestly, this should be on mainstream TV. Really well presented and put together, and educational without being preachy. Great job, team!

  • @toyotaprius79

    @toyotaprius79

    Жыл бұрын

    Fossil fuels often advertise on mainstream television

  • @jamesjulian

    @jamesjulian

    Жыл бұрын

    More people watch KZread than TV, Legacy media

  • @dank5432

    @dank5432

    Жыл бұрын

    Very few ppl watch mainstream TV these days, personally haven't done it in over 6 months.

  • @gjssjg

    @gjssjg

    Жыл бұрын

    Sure, but you appear to have swallowed the dogma and not the reality, the reality is that hydrogen isn't a solution in itself and that's also true for battery electric. The major industrial and aviation applications have no hydrogen or battery electric solutions. Which is the major percentage of the whole "shift to renewables". You can't fly around the world or make things without combustion in some form.

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    @@toyotaprius79 That is because they own the mainstream tv. They don't own KZread so KZread is free to publish what it wants within the laws. It still has censorship but certainly not like the mainstream media.

  • @stephengoldstein6025
    @stephengoldstein6025 Жыл бұрын

    Not going to work for FuelCell cars in the UK, since Shell just shut its last hydrogen pump...

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    Ah right, a total shutdown is it? I wasn't sure if they were scaling back or knocking it in the head completely.......

  • @jimmurphy5355

    @jimmurphy5355

    Жыл бұрын

    There are non-shell H2 station still open. Shell closed 3 prototype stations that used out of date equipment. So, not a complete collapse of the retail hydrogen supply. But I note that Shell closed the stations rather than update them with new equipment.

  • @ArronMurray
    @ArronMurray Жыл бұрын

    Loved watching Robert on SHC as a kid, and now I love watching him do FCS. Great episode and informative!

  • @KiwiEVadventures

    @KiwiEVadventures

    Жыл бұрын

    Robert is going from strength to strength and it's wonderful to see.

  • @jennyd255
    @jennyd255 Жыл бұрын

    That was really interesting. The closed cycle fuel cell battery AKA a Hydrogen/Oxygen rechargeable cell was, for a long time, one of my grey areas, given that as far back as the 1960s Apollo programme it was demonstrated to work pretty well. That said the issue of the size of fuel storage needed is indeed a real one. More recently I have been coming to the view that as other battery chemistries improve their efficiency and longevity, they are increasingly gaining the advantage over the dear old fuel cell. So that was a really informative discussion and has helped to further shape my evolving viewpoint on this.

  • @HermanVonPetri

    @HermanVonPetri

    Жыл бұрын

    Hydrogen fuel cells for the Apollo program benefited from filling multiple resource applications that simply aren't needed with other terrestrial energy systems. They already had to carry breathing oxygen with them so the compressed O2 tanks were going to be on board anyway. And also the fuel-cell byproduct gave them the drinking water that they were going to need for the trip, too. And since any extra weight prohibitively cut into fuel reserves there was no real downside to making power from the O2 tanks at the same time you make your drinking water, thereby saving weight on both batteries and H2O storage. You just needed the hydrogen tank, but the weight of the hydrogen itself was going to be in their drinking water anyway, one way or another.

  • @scotteladd2537
    @scotteladd2537 Жыл бұрын

    Thank you for this video. I do have a question, however. What is the difference in total emissions between using natural gas versus producing and burning hydrogen for steel production?

  • @JJ-zg1hh

    @JJ-zg1hh

    Жыл бұрын

    It depends how you produce the hydrogen. If you electrolyse it from renewable energy (green hydrogen) then it won't produce any emissions at all (with the exception of oxides of nitrogen). If you produce it with natural gas (grey hydrogen) then it will produce lots of carbon emissions (and oxides of nitrogen).

  • @idjles

    @idjles

    Жыл бұрын

    @@JJ-zg1hh Volvo is using green hydrogen in Sweden to make trucks. Yes, it’s more expensive. Steel has 4% carbon anyway, so I’d be interested how much carbon escapes as CO2 when carbonizing the iron to make steel.

  • @JJ-zg1hh

    @JJ-zg1hh

    Жыл бұрын

    @@idjles that carbon content in the steel is added as powder (I think) and captured within the steel. It doesn't leave as an emission to air. The heat needed in the foundry to make the steel normally comes from coal, which does release carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. When you say Volvo use hydrogen to make steel do you mean the raw material or do you mean fabricating steel parts? That's an important distinction to make.

  • @HorizonimagingCoUkPhotography
    @HorizonimagingCoUkPhotography Жыл бұрын

    Fantastic episode FCS!! Please make more easy to understand episodes like this (which handle really serious topics) which can be shared with those who are unfamiliar with renewable / green forms of energy. Top marks! 😎👍🏻

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    Hmm, well, not quite. Only one expert, so not a balanced view. Perhaps two with opposing views. You'll appreciate there are other experts who are bashing on with R&D and may very well be rather more up to date. It would be enlightening to know when Robert's expert was last in a lab and the discipline he was researching. Virtually all his comments were historical and whilst correct at one time certainly aren't quite so relevant today. There again the amount of R&D surrounding hydrogen is absolutely colossal. Were you to Google around then you could be reading for hours, every day. The R&D is not just for powering "stuff" it's mainly to help reduce the rate of global warming. Note that is "rate" of temperature increase ref global warming. It appears this target of limiting the rise to 1.5C is now recognised as more of a leap of faith, never to be achieved. The temperature rise by the end of the century is now recognised as being over 2.5C and possibly higher The crisis which now faces the planet is the rise in sea levels caused by the global temperature melting the ice on the planet. Millions of people will be obliged to move to higher ground. Conjecture is that if all the ice melts the seal level could rise around 70mtrs/200ft. If arsed there are maps freely available online of the projected "new coast lines". Many islands will vanish beneath the waves, never to be seen until the next ice age. Almost every coastal city, town, village on the planet will be on the new seabed. Low lying parts of countries will be underwater too. The coast line of Western Europe will be rather different as countries disappear. The car thing is really a sideshow to the main event. Anyway, I am happy to have cheered you up for the day. Probably a shrewd idea to buy land above 200ft, ref today's sea level ... and buy a boat, not forgetting a good sou'wester ... Hydrogen fuel cell powered of course.

  • @leored79
    @leored79 Жыл бұрын

    Hydrogen will play an important part in the energy mix. Here in Germany, wind turbines are deliberately turned out of the wind because the network at times cannot handle the load. Millions of potential kWh going to waste. Trend increasing. You will see hydrogen as a storage medium on the up. An increase in supply will be a turning point. Supply - not efficiency - is the key.

  • @Benjamin_Jehne

    @Benjamin_Jehne

    Жыл бұрын

    I think this channel is getting more and more a speaker of the battery electric future. The view and arguments are getting to narrow. He doesn't want to see how much Hydrogen is wasted as it is just a byproduct of our industry. Ok in a deindustrialisiert country like the Uk, that might be not the case anymore. Countries like China producing so much H2 as byproduct, that almost all cars could be fueld from it.

  • @kecikmiao3930

    @kecikmiao3930

    Жыл бұрын

    hydrogen is a better way to store energy than batteries imo.. let there be EV, FCEV, or even hydrogen ICE car in the market.. its good for us the consumer to choose which one would suit us more

  • @drfisheye

    @drfisheye

    Жыл бұрын

    Nope. Hydrogen factories are very expensive. Running them only when there is too much wind, which is almost never, won't be enough to pay for the factory. In practice these factories will buy dirty electricity to power the hydrogen factory for most of the time, which is very bad.

  • @drfisheye

    @drfisheye

    Жыл бұрын

    @@kecikmiao3930 Nope. Hydrogen needs to be cooled to store. It will inevitably heat up when stored for a longer time, which causes it to expand and then the safety valves will release it into the air, because the containers can't hold the expanded gas.

  • @leored79

    @leored79

    Жыл бұрын

    @@drfisheye im afraid you dont understand. The issue is not too much wind, but rather network stability through irregular, renewable sources (wind, solar). It is a major factor. Do your research before you comment.

  • @BillGardiner
    @BillGardiner Жыл бұрын

    Great video! It really boils down to energy storage as the lynchpin to any "silver bullet" solution. Currently, we rely on petrochemical energy storage for most of our fuel needs (home heating, electricity generation, and mobility) that must be burned to release its energy. As battery chemistries improve, and costs continue to drop, battery electric becomes more and more viable, even in the niche spaces mentioned in the video. I think that, ultimately, we will discover a replacement technology for conventional batteries (perhaps more like a supercapacitor, perhaps something we can't even conceive of today), but it will, at the end of the day, still be an electricity storage medium. Burning things will go away... it just makes no sense long-term. I'm sure this whole, lengthy comment will seem like a "duh" to everyone here 😀

  • @luca7069

    @luca7069

    Жыл бұрын

    I don't really think so. If we want a grid dominated by irregular wind and solar, storage capacity is the orders of magnitude most people can't even conceive. We're not talking about smoothing out peaks, we're talking saving up summer sun for the winter kind of scale, if not contingency plans if the next few years aren't as sunny. The amount of batteries required for this is beyond insane, so no matter . Hydrogen on the other other is much easier to scale up and store over long periods of time...just build more tanks and fill them up. This storage can also be moved around, traded and all sort of stuff in case of outages, emergencies etc. Yeah, it's much less efficient than charging up a battery, but it's not like we have alternatives on the scales we're talking about.

  • @BillGardiner

    @BillGardiner

    Жыл бұрын

    @@luca7069 but we're already doing it 🤷‍♂️

  • @franciscoshi1968

    @franciscoshi1968

    Жыл бұрын

    @@luca7069 the problem is that hydrogen needs 3 times the energy production. If you build 3 times the renewable capacity in summer to save for winter you could already have enough capacity in winter.

  • @raymondleury8334

    @raymondleury8334

    Жыл бұрын

    @@luca7069 We don't need that much storage for green energy. If you look at Tony Seba and RethinkX's work, you will see that by combining some overcapacity on the generation side with some storage, we can get a reliable and abundant supply of electricity for a good price.

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    @@luca7069 as others have pointed out, we really don't need this long-term seasonal storage when you mix renewable generation together, sure solar goes down in winter, but wind goes up, electric cars can be used to soak up cheap excess renewables, and even give back, geothermal is constant, and things like distributed domestic solar, hot water as storage and others can all combine together, with some minor behavioral shifting with time of use pricing. Hydrogen is not at all easy to scale up if made cleanly - sure if it's made from methane, as it will be for the foreseeable future, but scaling up the power requirements of electrolyzers, making large scale storage than can handle the caustic embrittlement of high-pressure hydrogen, or keeping it cold enough to be a liquid for long periods of time all require lots of complex machinery and additional energy. This is not an easy to handle and store liquid like gasoline, or a volumetrically energy dense gas like propane. Overbuild your wind and solar 20% (instead of the 300% you need for hydrogen) and subsidize some home storage of heat and electricity for less $/kWh that a capital project like grid scale hydrogen storage.

  • @r0ut366
    @r0ut366 Жыл бұрын

    A very clear and easy to understand synopsis of a rather complicated subject - thanks!

  • @hamshackleton
    @hamshackleton Жыл бұрын

    You could have emphasized the transporting difficulty of hydrogen - it does like to escape at the slightest opportunity, it makes steel pipes brittle, and you can't 'just plug in' to a hydrogen refill supply (even if there IS one), it requires special gas-tight and scrupulously clean connectors that require training and tools to use, and the incautious user can end up frozen to the refil nozzle, as liquid gas of any sort is VERY cold! Mr Liebreich (I hope I have his name correctly) touched on it with having to replace all appliances, pipework, etc, and micro-leaks.

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    This is exactly the problem. There is no way hydrogen is going to be the "pull up and fill up in a few minutes" solution. And yet there are those out there who firmly believe it is......

  • @patreekotime4578

    @patreekotime4578

    Жыл бұрын

    The best example to give the hydrogen heads is the recent issues NASA had with hydrogen containment for the SLS. If freaking NASA has containment issues with hydrogen, do you really think your handyman is going to be able to hookup your new boiler?

  • @charliet4678

    @charliet4678

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Brian-om2hh There are hydrogen cars on the road in Japan now, and guess what they fill them with hydrogen 😊

  • @forton615

    @forton615

    Жыл бұрын

    @@charliet4678 And hydrogen busses where I live, but you need specialised facilities to fill them up. Less of a problem if they end up in a big bus terminal every end of the day where they have that.

  • @KattenApelsin

    @KattenApelsin

    Жыл бұрын

    Amazon have used hydrogen-fueled forklifts in their operations since 2016 and has bought some 15000 fuel cell units from Plug Power. Forklift operators easily refuel in 3 minutes. Amazon are also buying vast amounts of green hydrogen annually from Plug and they plan to expand the use of hydrogen in their ecosystem. Thanks to the IRA, green hydrogen is now cheap, at least in the US. Hydrogen will likely get even cheaper when demand grows. I guess some companies are not experiencing the difficulties you are describing.

  • @roelhellemans2451
    @roelhellemans2451 Жыл бұрын

    Cleary put well done👍. One item were experience of battery electric diggers indicate that the diesel power consumption of diggers can be almost halved as the instant torque of the electric motors gives instant power while the initial hydraulic power from the diesel driven is relatively slow to build. Many more industrial and agricultural machines can benefit greatly (cost , simplicity, etc) from an electric drive clean sheet approach.

  • @kadmow

    @kadmow

    Жыл бұрын

    that -fuel saving - just shows the energy cost of running the hydraulic pump - electric actuators on a diesel/ammonia - electric system is a great advance, thanks to availability of affordable power transistors. Cost reductions in many industries is tied to patents expiring and profiteering originators getting rolled by competition more so than additional "advances", those are usually incremental - or staged - at best. (btw the idea of instant torque is "pretty much" an EV fanboi myth - a dumped clutch on a stalled-out "2-stepping" dragster is just as "instantaneous", as is an adequately designed, powered and supplied hydraulic system.) (add or subtract battery pack or diesel-electric power unit on any piece of plant (equipment) as needs and grid power availability varies - best to be agnostic and modular not "belief" driven) - cheers, no need to reply, thanks for the moments.

  • @colingenge9999

    @colingenge9999

    Жыл бұрын

    All the heaviest machinery is powered by electric. Such as trains where I can either get its power from a diesel generator, hence diesel electric, or quite easily with overhead powerlines since it’s very easy to ship electricity.

  • @gingernutpreacher

    @gingernutpreacher

    Жыл бұрын

    @@kadmow my forklift doesn't have a 2 stage clutch and the engine has to revup to do work it's quick but not instant

  • @ab-tf5fl

    @ab-tf5fl

    Жыл бұрын

    My observations is that a standard diesel digger spends more time in a day engine idling than actually digging. The idling comes in snatches, 10 seconds here, 2 minutes there, rather than all at once, but it adds up, just the same. Simply eliminating the idling should, alone, result in a drastic efficiency improvement, allowing battery powered diggers to stand a chance. Particularly in urban construction sites where tapping into the electricity grid to slowly charge the diggers during the overnight hours is feasible.

  • @gingernutpreacher

    @gingernutpreacher

    Жыл бұрын

    @@ab-tf5fl not for the bigger diggers there used hard up until brew time there often on construction site's so even if there is power it not 3 phase then there is weight limits of UK roads batteries bare just practical ( yet ) for the big stuff

  • @richie99999
    @richie99999 Жыл бұрын

    Have they solved the issue of what to do with the water “exhaust” besides spraying on the windshield of the car behind?

  • @99malc1
    @99malc1 Жыл бұрын

    Thanks for a simple and cleear presentation on an important topic. I was sorry you did not include hydrogen for railways, as that is now a plan for Canadian railways.

  • @MrAdopado

    @MrAdopado

    Жыл бұрын

    The show inevitably tends to have a UK emphasis. The distances involved in rail travel here make direct electrification very much the "no brainer" approach (and main routes were done years ago). More of a challenge in Canada but though electrification would be expensive for the coast to coast type distances it would still be a better solution in the long run. The challenge is actually quite moderate when you compare it to the pioneering engineers who had to blast routes and lay tracks through the rockies when technology was so rudimentary. "Stringing up some wires" is much less of a problem IMHO!

  • @TedToal_TedToal
    @TedToal_TedToal Жыл бұрын

    I’m very happy to see that you did a video on this subject, it’s the right approach to begin talking about where hydrogen does and doesn’t make sense, rather than trying to make it be some kind of a popularity contest. Some things I wanted to hear about and didn’t: (1) liquefied hydrogen; (2) hydrogen in train locomotives; (3) increasing volumetric energy density through the use of metal matrix storage of hydrogen; (4) Japan’s focus on hydrogen, and whether they know something, we don’t; (5) turning hydrogen into a high energy molecule like methanol, and using that to power equipment, including large aircraft; (6) use of electrolyzers versus hydrogen turbines for generation of power from stored hydrogen; (7) possibilities for large improvements in efficiencies of electrolyzers, fuel cells, hydrogen, production (I believe there are one or more amazing new, catalytic methods of hydrogen production), and hydrogen storage media; (8) how long-term storage of large amounts of hydrogen might be accomplished, underground or tanks or? (9) any role for internal combustion hydrogen engines, such as the one Caterpillar made to power one of their pieces of equipment; (11) any other innovations on the horizon for hydrogen? Check out Two-bit Da Vinci’s videos on hydrogen power.

  • @JonathanCurro

    @JonathanCurro

    Жыл бұрын

    I thought they did mention methanol to fuel the larger ships, but I could have misheard.

  • @SebastianSchleussner

    @SebastianSchleussner

    Жыл бұрын

    @@JonathanCurro They did! Methanol, or ammonia - which surprised me, given that ammonia can't be nice to handle as a fuel and would be bound to be very problematic for the environment if the ship sinks.

  • @EugeneLambert
    @EugeneLambert Жыл бұрын

    Very clear and important episode. Was a bit shocked that Michael Liebrich thought H2 wouldn't play a role in steel.

  • @guskes8889

    @guskes8889

    Жыл бұрын

    Tata Steel is converting there factory to green hydrogen.

  • @--Nath--

    @--Nath--

    Жыл бұрын

    I guess the thing is the losses to make the H2 vs just cranking it into an electric furnace or something. Any green hydrogen will be pissing away energy to do electrolysis, compressing, shipping, furtive losses and so on..?

  • @guskes8889

    @guskes8889

    Жыл бұрын

    @@--Nath-- sure, it cant beat electricity straight out the grid on efficiency, but most grids wont be able to meet demand. And dont forget that fossil fuels have an increadibly low efficiency and we all know how well that catched on, maybe we shouldnt be reaching for that 100% efficiency. + dont forget that technology will advance and that lower hydrogen efficiency will rise😄

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    ​@@guskes8889 If green hydrogen takes 300% more grid electricity to do work than just using the grid electricity directly, then how will the grid meet the greater demand for electrical green hydrogen if you think it can't meet the lesser demand for direct electrification? Green hydrogen needs lots of electricity to be made. "The grid can't manage" is an argument *against* green hydrogen, not for it. It's also not true; the grid is sized to demand, and it can supply both direct electrification and green (electrical) hydrogen - but it will be a lot cheaper to use the electricity directly where possible (e.g. battery EV's and heat pumps) The losses in converting water to hydrogen, and then back to electricity come from physics. There is no real improvement to come, unless you can break the 2nd law of thermodynamics. The high efficiency electrolyzers make that claim by using the heat generated for something else, it implies we are going to heat a block of flats (district heating) by electrolyzing hydrogen in the basement .... I've only seen animations of this, no actual projects, and certainly none at industrial scale.

  • @guskes8889

    @guskes8889

    Жыл бұрын

    @@brushlessmotoring you make the hydrogen next to a wind/solar park so that you dont have to transport that vast amount of electricity acros the grid

  • @mv80401
    @mv80401 Жыл бұрын

    Did you see the JCB digger model on the shelf behind Michael Liebreich?

  • @jamiegibbon2574
    @jamiegibbon2574 Жыл бұрын

    What about hydrogen for excess solar storage at home? Could summer excess power generated in summer be stored as hydrogen, and then be released to the house when needed (for power and heat) over the winter via a fuel cell? Is that a valid use case? How much could be stored (and in what size container that would be needed to get a house theough the winter) and what would be the cost of the power storage and release devices that would be needed to be connected to you home

  • @chrisheath2637

    @chrisheath2637

    Жыл бұрын

    I believe that you may want to look into the problems with hydrogen storage. eg Metal embrittlement . A serious use case study that I read recommended that , if hydrogen is stored in a building, to ensure that the roof can be easily detachable.

  • @bradleyarcher9840
    @bradleyarcher9840 Жыл бұрын

    Oh Robert, you’d love the nonsense I used to hear working for the gas board 🤦‍♂️ Hydrogen heating for everyone 😂

  • @briankavanagh7191
    @briankavanagh7191 Жыл бұрын

    Robert, an episode on wave and tidal power, never stops 24/7/365

  • @sandersson2813

    @sandersson2813

    Жыл бұрын

    You need a MASSIVE tidal range in height to make tidal worthwhile and wave power generation is pretty terrible.

  • @rclarkebeckett603

    @rclarkebeckett603

    Жыл бұрын

    @@sandersson2813 rubbish

  • @johnhornblow4347

    @johnhornblow4347

    Жыл бұрын

    Yep, tidal power has been less then a decade away for 50 years....

  • @sandersson2813

    @sandersson2813

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rclarkebeckett603 It's not rubbish. Please show me where in the UK Tidal power could be exploited. You clearly know nothing about it. It's like saying you can have hydro power in a stream

  • @francispeeney7133
    @francispeeney7133 Жыл бұрын

    On the volumetric difference, in comparison per energy density to say a Tesla battery pack how much more or less volume would there be? Would it be 3x the size of the longest range battery pack? Just a thought because then you would either lose interior space, have a large car or reduce the vehicles range???

  • @markd3925
    @markd3925 Жыл бұрын

    I’m surprised you don’t mention LNG or bio LNG for road freight since there are filling stations being built all over Europe, also for ships. I appreciate you focus on electric but should look at all options

  • @geralddavison

    @geralddavison

    Жыл бұрын

    The electrical energy needed to make synthetic fuels will always mean it is very expensive. Then you put it in an ICE and lose the vast majority of that energy as waste heat. It may end up with a niche place, but it will be so much more expensive than running a Battery EV.

  • @phoozle
    @phoozle Жыл бұрын

    Where I live our wholesale electricity prices often go negative during the day due to having too much renewable energy! The Government is now investing in electrolysers to turn on during those negative price periods. The hydrogen can then be used to generate power later in peak periods

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    Or, build a battery system for the same cost as Hydrogen infrastructure, capture ALL the energy and just have it "ready" without having to "generate" power (losing 70% in the process) Logical?

  • @mikemike974
    @mikemike974 Жыл бұрын

    Yes! Next question Hydrogen will never work for cars, maybe airplanes, maybe long distance shipping. The overall efficiency is too low, compared to batteries. For homes same problem. You're using electricty to generate hydrogen, when you could just use that same electric with a heat pump.

  • @ALMX5DP

    @ALMX5DP

    Жыл бұрын

    Yeah I think it can work well for overland trucking and shipping. Freight transport is a pretty large portion of the overall emissions equation.

  • @hamshackleton

    @hamshackleton

    Жыл бұрын

    Aircraft were mentioned - hydrogen needs such large containers there would be no room for the passengers! The same for shipping, the freighter would need to tow a huge ex-oil tanker full of hydrogen to get anywhere!

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    @@ALMX5DP In terms of Emissions. Overland trucking? Whatever use hydrogen is put to, it still requires 3x (at least) the initial grid supply to move the vehicle the same distance as a "straight" EV (HFCEVs are "EVs") Therefore you must consider the effect and consequence of using that energy. You'll say "Use green energy"? That's 2 extra units of green energy which could have removed fossil fuel generation from the grid. Therefore, the grid resulting from its use is (remains) dirty. . Hydrogen is dirty. All of it.

  • @mikemike974

    @mikemike974

    Жыл бұрын

    @@hamshackleton The hydrogen would need to be crygenically cooled to be be in liquid form to be volumetrically Ok, but it could be done. It would cost more than jet fuel though.

  • @71kimg

    @71kimg

    Жыл бұрын

    If efficiency mattered we wouldn’t drive in cars (which really adds weight - when going from a to b). What matters are cost and practicality.

  • @jeffjefferson7384
    @jeffjefferson7384 Жыл бұрын

    Brilliant video. Good to know about all the nuances and use cases for H2

  • @yodaiam1000
    @yodaiam1000 Жыл бұрын

    They mentioned converting hydrogen to ammonia for use in ships but what about doing the same process for planes? Can it not solve the issue of the hydrogen taking up too much volume in the plane?

  • @jasonleahy5543

    @jasonleahy5543

    Жыл бұрын

    UK firm Reaction Engines which is developing the SABRE hydrogen air breathing rocket for space planes which will burn oxygen in the air upto Mch 5.4 then switch to liquid oxygen for Mach 25 conducted a study with SFTC in 2021 which concluded that ammonia can be used for mid sized Airbus and Boeing airliners including retrofitting existing airliners with STFC catalysers to crack ammonia into hydrogen ( it's easier to burn an ammonia/hydrogen mix than pure ammonia ) however a UK Government funded study FlyZero by ATI ( Aerospace Technology Institute ) 2022 concluded hydrogen is a better fuel than ammonia.

  • @AWildBard
    @AWildBard Жыл бұрын

    I was surprised to hear that hydrogen for steelmaking was probably no, since previous guests on the Fully Charged Show said that one of the few legitimate uses of hydrogen was probably going to be for steelmaking, in order to decarbonize steelmaking.

  • @redshift3

    @redshift3

    Жыл бұрын

    I think that the jury is still out on this one. I read yesterday that steel making could be geographically split, with iron ore being processed into iron via hydrogen reduction at locations with abundant iron ore and renewable electricity (e.g. Australia and Brazil) who would then ship iron (instead of iron ore) to steel making centres around the world

  • @AWildBard

    @AWildBard

    Жыл бұрын

    @@redshift3 very interesting That would be a good solution I live in Korea, they have a few steelmaking plants. Only a few actually cook iron ore. Several have electric arc furnaces that melt scrap metal apparently. But they probably have either natural gas or coal burning plants just to make the heat and electricity for that. Recently a steelmaker in Sweden said they have successfully made zero carbon steel. I thought they used hydrogen, but I'm not sure.

  • @redshift3

    @redshift3

    Жыл бұрын

    @@AWildBard yes they did. Hybrit I think. I read that their process produces higher quality iron than traditional processes

  • @barisisler716

    @barisisler716

    Жыл бұрын

    I work in the sector and there is serious work for doing it. So, I wouldn't call that a "no", like they did in the video.

  • @user-yn5sk5ru5g

    @user-yn5sk5ru5g

    Жыл бұрын

    @@redshift3 hybrit indeed,

  • @nabilfreeman
    @nabilfreeman Жыл бұрын

    The format of this episode is absolutely brilliant!

  • @alcopley7684
    @alcopley7684 Жыл бұрын

    I wonder how this compares to heating with LPG? I use a shared underground storage and presumed it could be relatively easy to switch to Hydrogen. l also think you to tackle the issue of unreliable electric public charging is.

  • @geralddavison

    @geralddavison

    Жыл бұрын

    Key things: Transport - it's really hard to move around. Storage - it's incredibly hard to store under pressure. It just finds the tiniest of cracks and escapes. Pollution - burning hydrogen creates more NOx pollution than burning natural gas.

  • @m.i.andersen8167
    @m.i.andersen8167 Жыл бұрын

    Thank you for a serious, educational and relevant video. I am one of those who also saw hydrogen as the solution... But have become wiser (better informed, I would of course call it myself:). One thing that was not mentioned is the role of hydrogen in the production of synthetic materials, plastics, etc., via methanol. The video gave a very positive impression, I had begun to believe that the channel was becoming an advertising channel for Chinese electric car manufacturers. I have nothing against Chinese electric cars, but several of the videos I have seen recently seemed like a long, completely uncritical praise of the cars. Out of curiosity, is the channel in any way sponsored by Chinese car factories?

  • @SALVATl0N
    @SALVATl0N Жыл бұрын

    My biggest problem with hydrogen is the ease at which it leaks through seams in the tank so easily.

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    😂😂😂😂 You're talking history. Why not Google up on the topic prior to posting?

  • @noncalamari

    @noncalamari

    Жыл бұрын

    @@t1n4444 - the OP has a point - hydrogen is slippery stuff -- just ask NASA after their recent issues with hydrogen leaks on SLS.

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    @@noncalamari Very droll. How many hydrogen fuel cell cars have been "halted" from driving to the supermarket? Less than a rocket would be my guess. The only problem with all the hydrogen nay sayers is they will insist on giving us a history lesson. Not one of them appears to recognise this R&D thing.

  • @noncalamari

    @noncalamari

    Жыл бұрын

    @@t1n4444 - not "droll" -- "relevant". Hydrogen is dangerous stuff that leaks past all but the best seals. It's explosive in air from concentrations as low as 4 percent. The flames are nearly invisible. Having a significant number of cars using hydrogen fuel would be an impossibly stupid disaster. And that's without even getting into the points they made in the video -- namely the losses. Your support of hydrogen for cars seems to be more of a feelings thing than a reality thing. That's fine. Just don't expect me to agree with you, because you're clearly wrong.

  • @t1n4444

    @t1n4444

    Жыл бұрын

    @@noncalamari No. As before you merely coming out with history. Research does not remain static. And again, if you believe hydrogen is as dangerous as you believe them clearly you are not really up to date. All you need do is to research the car market in China or Germany to see the policies involved. BMW is now testing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles across the planet, even as we type. VW are in the design process of building their own hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. This is on addition to their continuing research in battery technology of course It's all very well for Robert to wheel on a so called expert on hydrogen, but, there are plenty of experts who would disagree his views especially in China, or Japan. All these costings are now out of date. Alternatives to lithium metal are being researched, continuously. Some car manufacturers no longer use lithium technology. There might be sufficient lithium for "today" but the percentage of EV vehicles is quite low cf ICE. Nobody can say with any certainty if there's enough lithium to sustain a 100% global fleet of road vehicles, "power walls", rail and marine vehicles. We read about lithium batteries being recycled but that's as much for the cobalt as lithium. We should not ignore that the CO2 produced in the abstraction of the "raw" lithium metal is not an insignificant amount. Plus of course a great deal of water is used on some processes for extracting lithium. Arguments exist already that the water used might be better used for agriculture. This is why research on alternatives to battery technology continue. The planet is awash, literally in Hydrogen. Electrolysis generates free hydrogen when "powered" by green electricity or from wind turbines or solar panels. All this guff about electrolysis being expense is slightly disingenuous. You'll note this "fact" is often repeated, even though it's not as relevant as once was. We often hear wind farms "run out of puff, we even see TV footage of stationary turbines blades. Now, why do you suppose wind farms are set up in the littoral regions and further out to sea. Wind turbines now float ( anchored to the sea bed obviously) many miles out to sea away from the sea trade routes. The wind is much more reliable at sea. If it wasn't them ask yourself why would power generating outfits put them there? Research will reveal the enormous amount of marine wind farms across the entire planet. We should not forget the reason for all this green technology is to reduce the rate of global temperature rise.

  • @zapfanzapfan
    @zapfanzapfan Жыл бұрын

    I think hydrogen is the way to go for steel. I can see two other ways, direct electrolysis of the iron oxide (like how aluminium is made) in which case the oxide has to melt which takes a huge amount of energy, the other way is recycling the carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide (like how the Martian rover makes oxygen from carbon dioxide) and use it again to strip oxygen from the iron oxide. Of the three, hydrogen seems like the most efficient and least dangerous method.

  • @sssxxxttt

    @sssxxxttt

    Жыл бұрын

    Could it be the expert didn’t discuss/consider the chemical part of producing steel? If you use H2 for reduction but electricity for energy needed.

  • @dickiewongtk

    @dickiewongtk

    Жыл бұрын

    @@sssxxxttt It seems that the 'expert' in this video only concern the use of heat to melt the iron part.

  • @returner323617
    @returner323617 Жыл бұрын

    Thanks Guys, well well presented, and it is immensely important/valuable to have third-party experts deliver the hard truths. I do have a dream and green hydrogen will have a niche play in the marine environment: created locally using wind/solar/ride/wave, stored locally, and distributed/used locally...think local fishing, etc. By the way, technical question: what platform do you use to record your multi-party videos/podcasts..?

  • @MayankKumar-so6sr
    @MayankKumar-so6sr Жыл бұрын

    I actually would like to know more about energy storage with hydrogen.... How'd that work out?

  • @judebrown4103

    @judebrown4103

    Жыл бұрын

    Yes, me too. I didn't think that was a viable option due to the size of tanks required for the relative energy density.

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    Basically Take energy. Throw 70% away. Charge the end user for the original energy. 🤔

  • @mdtrx
    @mdtrx Жыл бұрын

    I would like a whole episode on cement/steel. SSAB is planning to bring hydrogen steel into market in 2026.

  • @--Nath--

    @--Nath--

    Жыл бұрын

    If the hydrogen is from methane splitting then it's a con. A lot of these hydrogen claimed things are not green hydrogen but blue (which is bullshit clean coal version 2 for gas.. yet more promise of CCS that will fail utterly)

  • @Robert-cu9bm

    @Robert-cu9bm

    Жыл бұрын

    Yeah, we'll see about that. They still need green hydrogen which is a problem. Also cost is a problem.

  • @idomaghic

    @idomaghic

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Robert-cu9bm The whole SSAB project (called Hybrit) is a collaboration between SSAB (the steel manufacturer), LKAB (mining) and Vattenfall (electricity provider), where the latter has committed to building and providing green electricity for this steel production. Worth noting is that we still (as of a couple of weeks ago) occasionally have negative electricity prices in Sweden, usually at night in combination with wind. I.e. there's plenty of green electricity available if you have the storage (which they are also building in a mine). Would also appreciate if you could clarify whether you and mr. Liebreich considered the main benefit of hydrogen in steel making, namely reduction of iron ore (as opposed to using coal), and were NOT talking about heating the furnace (which SSAB does by green electricity, not hydrogen, in their "Hybrit"-process).

  • @ronaldl9085
    @ronaldl9085 Жыл бұрын

    Interesting! Lots of surprises in this episode for me!

  • @anthonymills9534
    @anthonymills9534 Жыл бұрын

    Great episode! Losses for the EV (power station - EV - traction) surprised me a bit, but the point was still well made. 1kwh - 4kwh from air sourced heat pumps was possibly slightly optimistic, would love to see more on this. I thought ground source could get close, but not air (more like 2.5 - 3?)

  • @markhivin8670

    @markhivin8670

    Жыл бұрын

    Depends on outside temp. and everything above defrost (outside unit working above 4°C all the time) you will get COP above 4 (coefficient of operation).

  • @jannepeltonen2036
    @jannepeltonen2036 Жыл бұрын

    This is really interesting :) A couple points - I'd be interested in hearing more about the aviation argument, since Airbus has been putting a lot of resources into hydrogen as an energy source, and that research includes looking into some completely novel airframe types - or not completely novel but things not often seen in passenger aircraft, such as flying wing style fuselages where the inside volume of the aircraft is actually huge and which could compensate for the volumetric inefficiency. So I'm interested in if the argument against using hydrogen in aviation is based on the idea of a current style passenger jet with a long thin tube like fuselage and wings, or if it takes into account those new ideas. And another point - apparently, Wärtsilä here in Finland is looking into creating ship engines that could run on ammonia, but also other possible solutions to make shipping with renewables a possibility. They are one of the major ship engine manufacturers in the world, so interesting to see where that leads.

  • @r0ut366

    @r0ut366

    Жыл бұрын

    they have tried this before - albeit with an airship - and it didn't end too well ...

  • @GreenJimll

    @GreenJimll

    Жыл бұрын

    I wondered if Reaction Engines and their SABRE technology might appear rather than Airbus. They've been working on that for years and have made considerable progress in the cooling required. Considering it was originally intended for use in Skylon for orbital deliveries, I think "range" isn't likely to be an issue. But cost and market need obviously are. A few years ago I went to a talk by an RE senior manager who mentioned that SABRE and Skylon would only make economic sense once the "hydrogen economy" was fully developed, as they'd need loads of H2 but would want the infrastructure costs amortised over lots of other uses than just their spaceplanes.

  • @joemorin9168
    @joemorin9168 Жыл бұрын

    Great video with great, unbiased info from an expert. Did anyone notice Mr. Liebreich has the same JCB toy tractor that Robert was playing with in this video??? (on the shelf behind him)

  • @remco6816

    @remco6816

    Жыл бұрын

    This episode was probably sponsored by jcb the toy was a jcb vehicle

  • @patreekotime4578

    @patreekotime4578

    Жыл бұрын

    Its possible theyve flooded everyone who is an energy journalist with them.

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    @@patreekotime4578 Yup. They have made far more toy hydrogen diggers than actual ones. It's a PR offensive, and it's playing right into the Oil and Gas industries tactic for hydrogen: Distract and delay electrification. Needless to say, the Tory government are fully on board the hydrogen train, wasted grant money for everyone, choo choo! An electrified train would make far more sense ...

  • @victorvandenbrink6851
    @victorvandenbrink6851 Жыл бұрын

    The biggest argument against hydrogen (as a replacement for everyday transport) to me is simply the logistics of it. I mean, I'm not expert, but I'm fairly confident in saying I think its easier to store and transport nuclear waste than it is to store and transport liquid hydrogen. I mean it is THE most difficult substance to store, period. There literally isn't any material yet concievable that is able to hold hydrogen for long extended periods of time, like what would be needed for mass storage in transport hubs and fuel pipes. Nevermind the fact that it needs to be highly pressurized and cryogenicly cooled ALWAYS. But next to that, its simply the smallest possible molicule, so it always leaks. No matter what the container is made of. Let alone the amount of hydrogen that is lost when it needs to be pumped from one container into another. I mean just look at the scrapped SLS launches by NASA as an example. These are the people that are the number 1 authority in storing hydrogen, with more experience and knowledge than any other orginisation. And even they, after nearly 70 years of dealing with the stuff, still have major, major issues with it. Issues they simply can't resolve. Now launching rockets is one thing. You don't actually need to be that efficient with they hydrogen if you only need to pump it into an large vessel that you're planning to only use once, and only for a minute or so. But imagine how much hydrogen we'd lose on a daily basis if we would have to builld an expansive infrastructure that spans countries and continents. I don't think that if you were to try to pump hydrogen from one side of California to the other through a pipeline, even if it was the most sophisticated pipeline every built, a single molecule would end up on the other side. Neither if you have to haul it in big trucks from one side to the other. Electricity however, we'll. We started building the infrastructure for that over 100 years ago, and we hardly have to add anything to our excisting grid to make it work for electric vehicles.

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    Saved me a post

  • @victorvandenbrink6851

    @victorvandenbrink6851

    Жыл бұрын

    @N P Actually the projected increased strain on the power grid with the introduction of EV's isn't much higher than what was predicted if we hadn't had EV's at all. The demand in electricity has been on the rise since the introduction of the light bulb, and has steadily grown ever since, the introduction of EV's has only bumped that increase up slightly. This is mostly because we are already producing much more energy than we consume. And especially when it comes to renewables, there's quite a gap between the demand and generation of electricity. Not just based on the time of day and the season, but also the total amount produced. Hence renewable energy is quickly becoming cheaper. Which is where EV's actually are able to offer up a good solution. If we have more of them, and they spend most time standing still (which most cars do), they can act a s buffer to fill that gap. After all, most of the time for day to day demand you don't need your car's entire range. So the overhead can be used as part of the grid.

  • @saurabhkatarey6818
    @saurabhkatarey6818 Жыл бұрын

    Beside ammonia and methanol, don't you think hydrogen power paste made of metal hydrite can play pivotal role as fuel for shipping industry? Secondly i would have loved to know fuel cells or IC engines will propel shipping industry?

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    How do you obtain the component compounds for the paste? (Including the Hydrogen?) It's still just a storage medium (AKA "Battery") and I'll bet just as inefficient as the conventional Hydrogen storage methods

  • @elmojito
    @elmojito Жыл бұрын

    Great start for understanding the situation relative to hydrogen but I think most important question not answered is what should be the priorities. Clearly there are opportunities in some areas but I think the goal needs to be what are the largest contributors to emissions and what tackle those first. Then, address what energy options exist that should be investigated. Latest data I have been able to obtain are from 2016 and lists aviation as generating 1.9% of emissions while road transport is 11.9% so clearly a larger priority. By comparison, agriculture, forestry and land use generate 18.4% so clearly a much larger opportunity.

  • @JoshuaPritt
    @JoshuaPritt Жыл бұрын

    Thumbs up just for mentioning Robert's angry rants. IM HERE FOR THEM

  • @castletown999
    @castletown999 Жыл бұрын

    Another way to look at hydrogen: It's not an energy source, it's just an energy transport medium. You have two choices: You can use the wind / solar to make hydrogen, ship it around in pipes and tanker trucks then turn it back into electricity in an expensive fuel cell. Or, you can take the wind / solar and send it over wires and use it as is. Which would you choose?

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    Exactly John.......

  • @chrisheath2637

    @chrisheath2637

    Жыл бұрын

    If i was a fossil fuel company, already making hydrogen, I would say that hydrogen is a clean fuel at the exhaust pipe, (even though I know it's creation emits copious greenhouse gasses), pretend I could clean it up, and sell the "clean hydrogen economy " idea to gullible governments, and use well-paid lobbyists and scientists to push that agenda. (Since I know that governments will back the most blatantly obvious industrial white elephants, if the fossil fuel industry pushes hard enough.)

  • @KonsaiAsTai

    @KonsaiAsTai

    Жыл бұрын

    What do you do when you generate too much wind / solar? Just turn off the turbines / disconnect the panels to stabilize the grid or turn that energy into something actually useful instead? Construct vast battery parks with resource requirements beyond your wildest imagination, or generate "green" hydrogen? Which would you choose? There's always more than one angle to this issue. Battery fanatics would have you believe there's either no excess or you just dump said excess in batteries, but where do those giga-batteries come from?

  • @mlevesque33
    @mlevesque33 Жыл бұрын

    Robert: Can I eat the candies now? Me: No, I'll eat them. 😀

  • @amaljoe367
    @amaljoe367 Жыл бұрын

    I got a KZread advert of a video on bright future of hydrogen for this episode 😂

  • @desertdan100
    @desertdan100 Жыл бұрын

    I agree with 90 percent of what was stated . The only exceptions being long haul trucking, trains and shipping. There are many ways to store H2 including in solid and paste form at ambient pressure and temperature.

  • @CorwynGC

    @CorwynGC

    Жыл бұрын

    Trains work great on straight electricity, why make it complicated? Long haul trucking works great on trains, why clog the roads with death machines?

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    For long haul trucking, change of perspective is required. Outrange the driver (possible) Recharge during the mandatory break sufficient to do that to end if shift (possible). Slow charge at end of shift (overnight) . Problem solved.

  • @andymccabe6712

    @andymccabe6712

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rogerstarkey5390whenever anyone says 'problem solved' about ANY contentious issue..... you can be CERTAIN of one thing! IT ISN'T......!!!!

  • @Benjamin_Jehne

    @Benjamin_Jehne

    Жыл бұрын

    @@CorwynGC Sorry, but just a little bit above 50% of the rail network in the EU are electrified. In the US it's under 1%. Please get some informations.

  • @desertdan100

    @desertdan100

    Жыл бұрын

    @@CorwynGC I am in the US and we are spread out. Trains are Diesel here and run East and West across the Country from Coast To Coast. Trucks do the same thing and travel long distances between cities, towns and Distribution centers. Years ago every little town had a train station or hub. Those days are gone and now the bulk of cargo is transported by truck. Delivery times on produce or refrigerated goods are critical. Refer units also run on fuel. There is a lot of the infrastructure that EV car owners don't consider. Personal cars are only a small portion of the total picture. I agree with cars being EV but other vehicles need other solutions. Just look at farm equipment as one example. When it is time to harvest they run equipment day and night without stopping until it is done. They just put operators in the cab in shifts to keep them going. How are you going to do that with batteries? Combines are trucked out to the fields. How are you going to recharge them? Haul them back? Run a Diesel generator for hours trying to charge them up? Then there is the down time trying to beat the weather changes. You could haul an H2 tanker truck out and refuel them in minutes or under a half hour at least.

  • @adamwalker1504
    @adamwalker1504 Жыл бұрын

    I’d also like adding the round trip efficiencies of Battery storage, liquefied air or CO2 batteries. From those calculations hydrogen is not a good solution for storage either.

  • @robinjones5169

    @robinjones5169

    Жыл бұрын

    What you say is correct and I am a much bigger fan of batteries than hydrogen. However it is sometimes worth taking a hit to the efficiency to be able to store energy over longer periods. Batteries do lose charge over longer periods and large amounts of storage is expensive with them whereas with something like hydrogen the electrolyser is expensive but tanks are cheap. I personally much prefer batteries but if we are going to need large amounts of hydrogen for industrial clusters it could also make sense to use it for longer term storage.

  • @vitordelima

    @vitordelima

    Жыл бұрын

    The script your fellows use for those propaganda pieces has to ignore a lot of technologies to arrive at those "conclusions". For example, only generation via electrolysis is considered, which is the most expensive and less efficient method.

  • @Tore_Lund

    @Tore_Lund

    Жыл бұрын

    That depends on the degree of integration. Obviously waste heat from electrolysis is going to be used for distributed heating. Likewise the places where hydrogen is used for power generation, the heat loss in the fuel cell is also going to be used. so overall that puts it on par with other battery chemistries suitable for large-scale storage, where Li-ion is prohibitively expensive.

  • @vitordelima

    @vitordelima

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Tore_Lund And hydrogen by electrolysis only makes barely sense (there are probably other better methods out there) where your source of energy is based on movement (hydropower or wind power, for example), not heat, light, combustible materials, ...

  • @Tore_Lund

    @Tore_Lund

    Жыл бұрын

    @@vitordelima Efficiency of electrolysis with catalysts is around 52%. There is no way around this unless another way is found to use other energy sources to break the bonds in water as you say. However the waste is heat of significant temperature which can be used for city heating or other process heating needs in industry. So with careful infrastructure planning you can store both heat and Hydrogen for winter and where Hydrogen is used, it supplies additional heat besides the generated electricity. So yes you only recover 25% of the electricity produced by the wind turbine in electricity at the point of use, but the remaining 75% you get as heat. This is better than waiting for the wind to blow and better efficiency than making Ammonia from electricity to use as fuel in engines. So for stationary use Hydrogen is very relevant. Hydrogen can also be used as a substitute for other chemicals in industry, like cement and steel production and even Ammonia for fertilizer and that makes the emission reductions even greater. It then also functions as long term energy storage in a way batteries can't, make Li-ion batteries as some people here suggest for stationary storage, very expensive in comparison. We also need the Li-ion batteries for EVs, not to say idle for days in a field between use.

  • @SW-lw6mt
    @SW-lw6mt Жыл бұрын

    This was very informative, I hope you do one on CCS since your guest mentioned it a few times. As far as I know, huge money has gone into CCS with very little to show for it. Is it actually going to work?

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    Not at scale. The mainstream powers to be will spout CCS all day because it give them an excuse to keep burning fossil fuels until we finally reach the point where enough people realise CCS does not actually work and they scrap the idea. In the mean time the fossil industry keeps on chugging along happily burning all their coal, oil and gas and releasing all the emissions we need to stop. My only worry is, we reach the dreaded tipping points before the world stops burning stuff and the humans once again loose control back to nature. I think it is laughable that politicians continue to engage at the COP's and continue to talk and discuss and explain what we should be doing all the while returning to the countries and authorising new coil, oil and gas fields and pipelines and infrastructure. It is simply madness.

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    @Robert_Llewellyn, I went off on a little rant then but not in your league.

  • @user-yn5sk5ru5g

    @user-yn5sk5ru5g

    Жыл бұрын

    CCS, carbon captur and storage? Dont think you mean the charger standard? 😁

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    Even with CCS, it still emits a ton of CO2 per ton of blue H2 made - better than the 9 to 12 tons from Grey and Black hydrogen, but not zero - and it is often spoken about as capturing 100% of the CO2 - it does not - the only zero emission hydrogen is true green hydrogen, although, depending on the mix, yellow (mixed grid) hydrogen can be less CO2 than blue - but - you would have to know the instantaneous mix when it was made. There is no oversight or certification on how hydrogen is made that I am aware of, I'm not sure what would stop someone from claiming hydrogen was green when it was in fact made from methane. There are no CCS at scale projects that don't use more energy than simply electrifying what you are trying to do would use.

  • @ferkeap

    @ferkeap

    Жыл бұрын

    That CCS isn't at scale doesn't ever mean it's not needed. It is with if not even looking at hydrogen. The transition is combined of all the changes. This episode teaches us that the energy system is large and not a one solution fits all or can exist on its own! You just have to hold a light to a system and see where it's useful, like the the expert Leibrich shortly explains.

  • @MLampner
    @MLampner Жыл бұрын

    Very well done. One point for long haul trucking even in winter, if there are designated routes the simple solution is catenary. Such systems already exist. Much like overhead power for trains there is no reason that parts of motorways, autobahns and interstate highways could have stretches of highway with power supplied overhead catenary and transferred to the truck by a pickup. More than likely it would need to be a two sided pickup as trains can use their rails as ground (earth) but electric buses already do this. The ground issue could even perhaps be addressed by putting a conductive ground below where the truck would drop a wheel, shoe or other connector to complete the circuit. As it would be at ground potential it would pose no threat to other crossing it or it could be in a protected slot. Overhead power could supply sufficient energy that the truck could travel while charging its batteries. Not a perfect solution in climates where icing could be a problem but railroads have addressed this for about 100 years so doable.

  • @mikemellor759
    @mikemellor759 Жыл бұрын

    What a great treble act - I value Michael’s in depth knowledge & Imogen’s presentation skills + humour from Robert 👏👏

  • @sports2hedz542

    @sports2hedz542

    Жыл бұрын

    Except he's wrong about aviation. Likely increasing biofuel % in the short term, but long term: pure H2 jet engines are very feasible. And 'flying wing' airliners (ok 30 years away) can carry the large cryogenic tanks. Hence why GE, Safran are currently building a pure H2 engine for an Airbus demonstrator.

  • @johnpeters4214

    @johnpeters4214

    Жыл бұрын

    @@sports2hedz542 Exactly. Plenty of opinions but devoid of facts.

  • @MrAdopado

    @MrAdopado

    Жыл бұрын

    @@johnpeters4214 The video had plenty of facts. Detailed numbers are readily available elsewhere.

  • @sports2hedz542

    @sports2hedz542

    Жыл бұрын

    @@johnpeters4214 well, to be fair, we are talking about the future here so there's no 'facts' per se. He has most right but not all in my *opinion*

  • @maxx23234
    @maxx23234 Жыл бұрын

    What a great snapshot of where we are with hydrogen now! Thanks guys.

  • @ZarlanTheGreen
    @ZarlanTheGreen Жыл бұрын

    We absolutely need a replacement for cement. Not only does it, by its very nature, produce green house gases, but it also uses non-renewable resources. (specific kinds of sand)

  • @scarter9447
    @scarter9447 Жыл бұрын

    When we produce h2 from electrolysis given the conservation of energy principles where are the "losses" going in the electrolyzer? Or is it the very basic fact that we tend to dismiss the commensurate o2 which is produced at the same time.. why not collect and use BOTH???

  • @Simon-dm8zv

    @Simon-dm8zv

    Жыл бұрын

    Heat.

  • @scarter9447

    @scarter9447

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Simon-dm8zv i doubt it. You know if we say over and over again in these types of informational documentary formats that electrolysis to produce h2 is inefficient we may tend to believe it without credible explanation...

  • @Simon-dm8zv

    @Simon-dm8zv

    Жыл бұрын

    @@scarter9447 Doubt what? I just informed you with the fact that electrolysis happens with heat loss. That's all.

  • @scarter9447

    @scarter9447

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Simon-dm8zv why is there heat loss? High current needs low resistance electrodes and wiring. I really want to see a quantitative analysis on energy efficiency from input to h2 o2 combustion return of energy. I just think that were forgetting the o2 when we talk of h2 production therefore if we discard the o2 then we have low efficiency maybe.

  • @Simon-dm8zv

    @Simon-dm8zv

    Жыл бұрын

    @@scarter9447 Because of the huge electrical resistance of the electrolyte heat is developed. O2 is not discarded. It is just released into the atmosphere for us all to enjoy.

  • @fredbloggs5902
    @fredbloggs5902 Жыл бұрын

    Hydrogen has always been hopelessly inefficient despite 100+ years of research, but BigOil like it because it preserves their control over distribution.

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    Exactly. They are achingly desperate to hang on to the manufacture, distribution and pricing "thing" they had with petrol and diesel.... Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be going their way.......

  • @sunrisejak2709

    @sunrisejak2709

    Жыл бұрын

    I disagree. (respectfully) 🙂 Distribution can be accomplished by anyone. The generation of hydrogen and its distribution is not uniquely held by big oil. Anyone can exploit hydrogen as its not geographic specific. Yes, its not as efficient or even practical, but it is unquestionably an equalizer. Freedom away from holders of the earth minerals dominated by few is at the root of energy distribution problems. A technology available to ALL and the actual resource itself available in every inch around the world is ideal. This potential is even better than possibly even renewables as the wind blows inconsistently and the sun doesn't always shine. Keep pursuing hydrogen improvements that provide freedom and independence to even the smallest of players. In fact Hydrogen could release us from big oil influence and control. It could be a cold winter in Europe this year as OPEC denies production increases. Countries could readily produce their own energy with hydrogen and tell big oil to stick it where the sun don't shine. Oops a bit off topic. Sorry, that was meant light heartedly. 😊 The challenge with the world today is the dominance over many by the powerful few holding people hostage to energy requirements. Hydrogen is potentially a great liberator. 😁

  • @uniteddreamer

    @uniteddreamer

    Жыл бұрын

    Yep. And central banks can use that control to maintain their dominance of financial markets

  • @uniteddreamer

    @uniteddreamer

    Жыл бұрын

    @@sunrisejak2709 big oil will just use their financial muscle to buy up all the green energy sites, as we're already seeing in the UK offshore markets. Hydrogen production is a capital intensive venture. And remember big oil dont control most oil production sites hence numerous conflict zones, corruption and economic embargoes of states who do control oil supply.

  • @sunrisejak2709

    @sunrisejak2709

    Жыл бұрын

    @@uniteddreamer Thats my very point. How many countries have oil reserves to exploit? Very few. How many countries have lithium in reasonable quanties to exploit? Very few. How many countries have hydrogen to exploit? Every country on earth. At least it has a chance of a level playing field. And provides an opportunity at self-sufficiency not under the thumb of any single entity that can flex its muscles. Hydrogen allows anyone to challenge or partner with whoever they wish. We should not repeat "big oil". Aiming at finite and geographic specific resources (minerals) will put us right back full circle again. Dominated by those who have it iver those who don't. We should not give up on hydrogen for that very reason of having the worlds precious resources available equally to all.

  • @pdken3081
    @pdken3081 Жыл бұрын

    Always good to hear Michael bring some informed insight. Check out his Cleaning Up channel/podcast for more in depth discussion and interviews.

  • @simoncadden968
    @simoncadden968 Жыл бұрын

    you can't help but agree with most that is being said. But I feel there was unadressed gap in the cement/steel explanation; namely how to achieve sufficient temperatures for steel smelting on an industrial scale. I would be interested what processes would be considered best to achieve the necessary milestones

  • @eddnshoulders
    @eddnshoulders Жыл бұрын

    Don't forget that each time you transfer any compressed gas between pressurised containers, you have to use quite a bit of energy so this contributes to the overall efficiency losses of the process. A great attempt though to explain a complicated topic and great choice of expert opinion. Thanks for your efforts to educate us all on a topic that none of us know the answer for yet. You should try and get someone on from Warwick Manufacturing Group or the Advanced Propulsion Centre to give you a similarly high-level and rational overview of the possible/viable energy solutions. I can provide names of people to contact if it's useful.

  • @thomasreese2816
    @thomasreese2816 Жыл бұрын

    Hydrogen storage is also a terrible idea. The 2 direction conversion plus high requirement for safe storage means batteries or other options are just better all around

  • @MrAdopado

    @MrAdopado

    Жыл бұрын

    I'm definitely not a fan of hydrogen use but the issue here is that we are talking about long term storage. Batteries are great on the grid for balancing supply and for short term storage ... minutes/hours/maybe a day at a push? The sheer quantity and cost of battery storage means that you really can't store all the renewable power that we are going to need only using batteries. You are correct about 2 way conversion losses but unfortunately we have few alternative options. At present much of the wind energy overnight is lost completely and we certainly can't store enough to cover for a couple of weeks when the wind doesn't blow and there's no solar. When our wind capacity is multiple times what we have at the moment it will be useful to build up a long-term storage even if doing it with hydrogen means that we have losses. If you have a better solution for long-term storage I would be genuinely interested to know what it is!

  • @Nikoo033

    @Nikoo033

    Жыл бұрын

    @@MrAdopado new generations of batteries for long term (months scale) seasonal storage of renewable energies are already being developed.

  • @MrAdopado

    @MrAdopado

    Жыл бұрын

    @@Nikoo033 The "being developed" is the key wording here! Useable battery storage that could keep the grid going for a week or more doesn't presently exist... yes, you could do it but with present technology the costs would be prohibitive.

  • @MarcusHast

    @MarcusHast

    Жыл бұрын

    ​@@MrAdopado With hydrogen storage it's also "easy" to scale storage capacity. The expensive part of a battery is the battery. So if you scale storage it just becomes more expensive. If you are instead storing hydrogen in tanks locally that is easier to scale. And while the tanks are not trivial to build they are simpler than batteries. That said, the energy doesn't necessarily have to be stored in hydrogen. There are also projects for storing in liquid air tanks and storing heat in sand. We'll likely see a lot more innovating ways of storing the excess energy from intermittent sources in the coming years.

  • @chargeheadsuk
    @chargeheadsuk Жыл бұрын

    I keep hearing hydrogen, "EV is just a stepping stone" doing my best to share other arguments 😉⚡🌿

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    I am the same, there are so many who keep harping on about the wonders of Hydrogen yet reach time they fail to understand the physics involved and the difficulties associated with the production, storage and transportation on top of the energy losses involved when using Hydrogen. At first glance Hydrogen seems like the silver bullet option but as soon as you scratch below the surface it becomes obvious that with today's technology Hydrogen is NOT the answer. I put Hydrogen alongside Fusion and something to dream of, something for the future perhaps.

  • @colingenge9999

    @colingenge9999

    Жыл бұрын

    Hydrogen compressed to 10,000 psi has a density of 38 kg/m³ , gasoline is 721 kg/m³. Given that converting hydrogen into electricity through a fuel cell is roughly the same efficiency as a gasoline engine, it would mean that the storage tank in your truck would have to be almost 20 times the volume of the existing gas tank. Not only would the carbon filament tanks add to that volume But the weight of the tanks would be roughly the same as the compressed hydrogen inside them.

  • @NunoLima1337

    @NunoLima1337

    Жыл бұрын

    @@neilmorgan7737 If we can get rid of the "silver bullet" ambitions, then it all makes more sense IMHO. Many buyers will be super happy to have higher range from a H fuel cell and the comfort of transitioning away from fossil fuel with a smaller change to their habits. So far we've had petrol and diesel co-existing in the mainstream, I don't see why BEV and fuel cells can't do the same. The argument presented that electricity->H2->fuel cell is a wasteful process seems to me a smaller obstacle than what was presented here, as the buyer can simply spend more money for more electricity and collectively we can have a surplus of wind+solar+nuclear generation. The BEV compromise on the other hand, seems to be between having a XL battery for a relatively long range vs. having a still-expensive battery and having many re-charging stops especially in the winter. I can easily imagine business users might favour H2 fuel cell over BEV so they can get the correct number of jobs and trips done over a work day.

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    @@NunoLima1337 Range is less of an issue now for EVs, the biggest factor is lack of infrastructure for all cars other than Tesla. Most non Tesla chargers only have 2/4 charging bays with only 2 x chargers in most cases. This is the real issue when it comes to range anxiety. It's more like charger anxiety nowadays. Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars simply can't compete with BEVs. Compared to ICE cars Hydrogen could have had a chance but with BEVs taking over so much of the car industry the race is already over. If you look at the BEV uptake against ICE car collapse it is clear where the trend is heading. As for Hydrogen fuel cells they simply don't factor on the global market. I think the numbers are in the region of 1600 cars globally.

  • @neilmorgan7737

    @neilmorgan7737

    Жыл бұрын

    @@NunoLima1337 Most recharging is done overnight for BEVs and most cars spend over 90% of their time parked up doing nothing. There will be niche markets for Hydrogen technology as indicated in the video.

  • @aabhisheks
    @aabhisheks Жыл бұрын

    Multiple hydrogen storage options have come up on the horizon and those have been omitted because it’s not available in the market today however I believe it would be wrong to ignore them as they can quickly change the market scenario, assuming electric lobby doesn’t drown them first

  • @vitordelima

    @vitordelima

    Жыл бұрын

    The electric lobby always ignores their existence for a reason, but many hydrogen storage solutions are already avaiable (some stationary ones or storage based on some liquid substances).

  • @ellieban
    @ellieban Жыл бұрын

    Can anyone explain to me why the ships argument (making hydrogen denser and more transportable by converting it to methanol or ammonia) doesn’t work for planes?

  • @swanchamp5136
    @swanchamp5136 Жыл бұрын

    The cynic in me when I heard them say hydrogen would be expensive immediately thought no wonder energy companies are interested in it they are thinking about how much they can charge people for it. The issue with cheaper energy is that companies don't like the idea of dropping prices they much rather they go up which is why I suspect they are not all that enthused by the cheaper wind and solar options

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    Got it in one

  • @chrisheath2637

    @chrisheath2637

    Жыл бұрын

    The incumbents thinking - there must be a way we can capitalise on this. Next minute - they get completely disrupted, and out of business...

  • @charlesminckler2978

    @charlesminckler2978

    Жыл бұрын

    Georgia Power and Florida Light and Power would disagree. Both have invested heavily in Solar. It's kinda a no brainer, spend a million, make money for 20 years.

  • @aquilegus

    @aquilegus

    Жыл бұрын

    don't understand your logic. they want something CHEAP to produce that they can sell at HIGH cost, so not hydrogen hence limited interest? Electric for cars including swap out batteries is likely to be in that sell expensive category - just look at cost of public recharging - but linking all energy to every other source is pure extorsion. its a cartel by any other name.

  • @briankinder400
    @briankinder400 Жыл бұрын

    Methanol is a very interesting fuel. Existing ice cars can run on this with minimal modifications. Around 30 years ago in New Zealand we used to have a plant that produced large volumes of methanol. This was huge news at the time as the NZ plant was among the first in the world to make large volumes of methanol from hydrogen. At this time our government was even considering this as an alternative fuel for vehicles. Way back then I was actually involved with the project to develop the initial conversion kits for a fleet of test vehicles. These conversion kits were simple and inexpensive and they worked very well on the fleet of test vehicles. Methanol was simply poured into the existing petrol tank. They could run on petrol, methanol or any combined blend. Engine life and performance was also better than running on petrol. Emissions were much cleaner too. Only negative was that vehicles consumed 10-20% more running on methanol than they did on petrol which in reality wasn’t a big deal. This methanol produced at the NZ plant was about 1/3 of the cost of petrol so it definitely made sense at the time. Anyway for political reasons (ironically involving NZ trade with Russia) our government decided to run with LPG and CNG as alternative fuels so further NZ development was discontinued. I was told a bit oater on that the entire project was later purchased by Nissan of Japan. Apparently all was packed into shipping containers and sent to Nissan. What a loss! The NZ methanol plant was very successful and it ran for a long time but sadly it is now mothballed. So the lesson here is it’s all been done before and mostly it’s not new. The greatest lesson is politicians have to play the game to help everyone achieve the right outcomes.

  • @Matt-dx3wo

    @Matt-dx3wo

    Жыл бұрын

    California dabbled with incentivizing methanol in the 80s (produced from steam reformation of natural gas). Fellow air board employee told me that it was a difficult fuel for mechanics to work with due to the toxicity.

  • @briankinder400

    @briankinder400

    Жыл бұрын

    I honestly haven’t heard this complaint before about methanol. In NZ they had 30 test vehicles and we were told the drivers saw very little difference in the fuels. But now you mention it I also remember that they were worried about fires because straight methanol burns with a clear flame. To solve this problem they can also add a little petrol say 10% to the fuel.

  • @andrei_dk
    @andrei_dk Жыл бұрын

    Outstanding video, thank you! My only comment is regarding aviation, where even though we won't be using hydrogen directly, we will still need it indirectly to produce e-kerosene by combining hydrogen and source of carbon from unavoidable or biogenic sources.

  • @gigabyte2248

    @gigabyte2248

    Жыл бұрын

    Aviation is a tough one, and I personally would move it from a 'no' to a 'maybe'. For small aircraft, definitely batteries. For transcontinental flights, hydrogen won't cut it and we'll need biofuel or synthetic fuel. There's an in-between tier where hydrogen might work (liquified, to get volumetric energy density up). Think flights between European countries. I'm not an expert on aviation (my PhD's in electronics), but there's a very interesting blogpost series from a chap called Bjorn Fehrm - who *is* an aviation expert - where he not only makes an argument for hydrogen but also walks through a rough design for a hydrogen medium-distance aircraft. I think anyone who's interested in the topic of sustainable aviation would find it a great read.

  • @geoffreypage9904

    @geoffreypage9904

    Жыл бұрын

    It is a very real possibility that hydrogen will be used directly to fuel aircraft. It is all about the best tool for the job. There is plenty of shorter distance flying that require much larger aircraft than could be delivered by battery electric aircraft.

  • @KattenApelsin

    @KattenApelsin

    Жыл бұрын

    Check out Airbus ZEROe project. Their ambition is to develop the world’s first zero-emission commercial aircraft by 2035 with the help of hydrogen.

  • @merrickhurst4150
    @merrickhurst4150 Жыл бұрын

    Also, I take umbrage with the dismissal of plug in seafaring vessels. Isn't that very thing prolific in Norway?

  • @andymccabe6712

    @andymccabe6712

    Жыл бұрын

    Er, isn't that short distance ferries though..... so, 'niche'.....!?

  • @andymccabe6712

    @andymccabe6712

    Жыл бұрын

    ... But, yeah....they ARE a thing.... sort of!

  • @merrickhurst4150

    @merrickhurst4150

    Жыл бұрын

    @@andymccabe6712 nope, everything from cargo vessels to speedboats. Quick Google turns up heaps of results.

  • @stijnhs
    @stijnhs Жыл бұрын

    The segment about "big transport" is very misleading and clearly he hasn't worked a lot in the logistics related field! Say you're looking at an average northern European driver who drives around 300 miles daily, for starters you'll need a battery that can last you at least 350 because in cold weather it is less efficient. Electric trucks use around 2 kWh per mile therefore you'd need a battery of 700kwh. The weight of batteries is around 5kg per kWh meaning the total weight of the battery will be around 3500kg, add battery housing and an extra 400kg for heavy duty motors and your drivetrain is easily exceeds 4000kg. Current diesel drivetrains with enough fuel for that same 350 miles will weigh around 2000kg. For transporters it's not even so much a question of range as it is loading capacity, since countries use maximum allowed weights that are made up of empty weight of the truck + cargo, having a truck that is 2 tons heavier means 2 tons less cargo and that is what logistics companies mainly look at because carrying 2 tons less on every trip over the life time of a truck will cost companies tons of money.

  • @ogriboy
    @ogriboy Жыл бұрын

    JCB are already using Hydrogen.with great success. Most of the negatives sound just like the early days ideas of going electric.

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    But where is the hydrogen they use coming from? And how is it produced?

  • @CorwynGC

    @CorwynGC

    Жыл бұрын

    Efficiency losses are a matter of physics.

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    There are far more toy JCB's with green wheels than actual JCBs with green wheels. They have a couple of prototypes. Volvo will likely eat their lunch with a battery swap system before hydrogen JCB's are a common sight. It's all PR and marketing.

  • @ogriboy

    @ogriboy

    Жыл бұрын

    @@brushlessmotoring Any alternative proposals to electric are put down to hype and marketing ..Its why Tesla is also considering it fo certain situations.

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    @@ogriboy that was an April fools joke. Tesla are not considering hydrogen for anything. Reputable links if you have them please.

  • @briangriffiths114
    @briangriffiths114 Жыл бұрын

    For a number of years, Highview Power has been working on cryogenic storage of compressed air, using excess power generated from wind turbines, that subsequently drives electrical generators. It is now scaling up its operation to a 200 MW/2.5 GW/h facility in Yorkshire, the first of 18 UK sites to support the National Grid. From memory, I recall the round cycle efficiency is between 60 and 70% but this technology rarely makes the news.

  • @rogerphelps9939

    @rogerphelps9939

    Жыл бұрын

    Only OK for short term storage, and nothing like enough either. We need hundreds of terawatt hours.

  • @khavaliar
    @khavaliar Жыл бұрын

    Can hydrogen really do well as long term storage? Considering it's so small and often wants to go through the container ..

  • @chrisheath2637

    @chrisheath2637

    Жыл бұрын

    I questioned that as well...I imagine the set-up and maintenance cost requirement for long term storage would be huge...

  • @jasonleahy5543

    @jasonleahy5543

    Жыл бұрын

    @@chrisheath2637 I think the plan is to store hydrogen underground in salt caverns and depleted oil and gas wells such as under the North Sea.

  • @chrisheath2637

    @chrisheath2637

    Жыл бұрын

    @@jasonleahy5543 Considering that hydrogen has a low flash point - one explosion will stop this idea in its tracks...

  • @DLWELD
    @DLWELD Жыл бұрын

    A minor point is that hydrogen fuel cell cars require a pretty heavy duty battery, as when the car needs to accelerate, a fuel cell has to rebalance its chemistry to meet a "high draw" - this takes time - without a battery a hydrogen fuel cell car will get a lot of honks when the light turns green. :+( Question is: why not just use a battery alone instead of carting along a huge hydrogen tank and fuel cell?

  • @thomasfjen

    @thomasfjen

    Жыл бұрын

    You can save much more energy/kg than a battery. That's why it is still viable option for big transport vehicles.

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    @@thomasfjen Tesla Semi is going to destroy that myth in 9 days.

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    @DLWELD Well said

  • @Benjamin_Jehne

    @Benjamin_Jehne

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rogerstarkey5390 The Tesla Semi is a castle in the sky. Where do you want to charge all of the hundreds of thousands of trucks. Here in Germany alone you will need over 95.000 high speed chargers for all the trucks, that are parked at night beside the Autobahn. This won't work. Welcome to Utopia.

  • @Benjamin_Jehne

    @Benjamin_Jehne

    Жыл бұрын

    Maybe because you just need a 80kWh batterie for the fuelcell truck, but around 1000kWh for a long range truck!? Instead of 1 truck, you can build 15 cars.

  • @lpg-geffray
    @lpg-geffray Жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much for your content !! That’s a clear and unbiased presentation. We absolutely need these kind of explanations in order to make the transition acceptable. Congratulations.

  • @martinwalzer

    @martinwalzer

    Жыл бұрын

    M. Liebreich unbiased ?

  • @BUNKERPT

    @BUNKERPT

    Жыл бұрын

    "unbiased presentation" ???? Hahahahah ... best joke of the year!!!

  • @aefvindicator
    @aefvindicator Жыл бұрын

    I had a neighbour ask me about this today. Great timing. And a brilliant explanation of the issue.

  • @stevenlawrie7819
    @stevenlawrie7819 Жыл бұрын

    I'm surprised that plug in is not an option for ships as we're looking at lng/hybrid ferries for our shorter routes of 10 hours.

  • @Robert-cu9bm

    @Robert-cu9bm

    Жыл бұрын

    Because ships are all about the load... You lose so much being be.

  • @tonysimi5763
    @tonysimi5763 Жыл бұрын

    Wonderful Robert playing to your comedy strengths!! Lol

  • @PiefacePete46
    @PiefacePete46 Жыл бұрын

    Thank you so much for this video, reliable and trustworthy information is essential in the midst of the "Misinformation Age". The majority of us do not have the necessary specialised knowledge to reach a valid conclusion on such a wide and complex topic. The "Yes", "No", and "Possibly" approach was a pretty neat idea... it really worked well! Personally I dislike the Hydrogen option, purely on the level of complexity invlolved... nothing in this video makes me want to change my mind. Robert, is it time for a "Junkyard Wars" series where contestants must produce a working Hydrogen-powered vehicle? You could film it from a bunker! 😉 👍

  • @rubikfan1
    @rubikfan1 Жыл бұрын

    11:26. But for steel you need a molecule to take oxygen from the ironore. Old plants use coal(carbon) make co2. But you could use H2 aswell. Its not used used for heating.

  • @verygoodbrother

    @verygoodbrother

    Жыл бұрын

    Using H2 will create water no?

  • @rubikfan1

    @rubikfan1

    Жыл бұрын

    @@verygoodbrother yes. Tou basicly take oxgyen from ironore.

  • @verygoodbrother

    @verygoodbrother

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rubikfan1 so what happens to the water/molten mixture, isn't that a no-no in the iron/steel industry?

  • @rubikfan1

    @rubikfan1

    Жыл бұрын

    @@verygoodbrother well maby. Thats why you need to spend time and money into science. But most water comes out as steam.

  • @craigwatson2298
    @craigwatson2298 Жыл бұрын

    Thank you for another great video. Very good summary of the could/should debate on the use of H2. Wonder what the thoughts of @SkillBuilder and @HeatGeek will be on the response to the comments made re domestic heating.

  • @jonoharris333
    @jonoharris333 Жыл бұрын

    What about train? You never talk about trains!

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    No point, they're always on strike.

  • @Galileocrafter
    @Galileocrafter Жыл бұрын

    It’s been time to give up on hydrogen cars 20 years ago…

  • @DSAK55

    @DSAK55

    Жыл бұрын

    Since 2004 when George Bush promoted it as "Freedom Fuel"

  • @cg986

    @cg986

    Жыл бұрын

    @@DSAK55 I remember that little fossil industry piece of propaganda. He probably believed it himself.

  • @rzpogi

    @rzpogi

    Жыл бұрын

    The Japanese are not giving up on this tech though. Comparing price per energy per kg, filling up with hydrogen is actually more expensive than gasoline or diesel and substantially more than EV. Lmao I remember those Japan promotional videos produced 20 years about FCEVs telling the advantages and disadvantages and they are still the same today. Lmao

  • @TecnamTwin

    @TecnamTwin

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rzpogi And they will die trying.

  • @MrTaxidriver50005

    @MrTaxidriver50005

    Жыл бұрын

    You know people said the same about ev cars.... No charging infrastructure ect... Nothink has changed except now its cheaper to run petrol cars than a ev... How many miles do you need to do to make a ev cheaper than a fossil fuel car when you include buying the car yourself.. The only reason ev cars are popular at the moment is tax incentives... As a company car driver you pay virtually nothink in tax which looks very good especially when it's not your money buying the car.. Most car purchases are financially driven and ev cars are still 30% too expensive.

  • @ekrajb123
    @ekrajb123 Жыл бұрын

    Only thing that could've made the intro better was if Imogen was the one playing with tractor and Robert was playing with the EV and windmill. Otherwise great vid!

  • @alexnefi
    @alexnefi Жыл бұрын

    In school chemistry I learned that hydrogen molecules are notoriously difficult to contain because they like to leak through solid objects because the H2 molecules are so tiny they squeeze through the atomic gaps. Wouldn't that also cause an issue with trying to transfer H2 through existing gas pipes?

  • @maxvaessen
    @maxvaessen Жыл бұрын

    😂 loved the episode! We need more episodes with these 2 people

  • @bartvanderauwera6906
    @bartvanderauwera6906 Жыл бұрын

    I loved the candy equation! I thought the blue car was inefficient because it had Belgian license plates 😉

  • @williamfence566
    @williamfence566 Жыл бұрын

    As noted we need a range of solutions. As an aside I work for the NHS and we have a two battery trucks on lease and in simple terms they are only good for very short town centre runs and have also been problematic. Great for delivery to hospitals as they are quiet but the application is still in it's infancy.

  • @scotteladd2537

    @scotteladd2537

    Жыл бұрын

    Who makes them? What is the battery chemistry? What is the implied range?

  • @rogerstarkey5390

    @rogerstarkey5390

    Жыл бұрын

    On the other hand, I believe TFL has numerous Hydrogen Buses which I understand they find "problematic".

  • @williamfence566

    @williamfence566

    Жыл бұрын

    @@scotteladd2537 DAF trucks ,( they are 14T rigids ) . I don't know the chemistry. Implied range is approx 160 miles but once loaded that can drop to 100 miles then it's a full charge. They've suddenly lost range whilst out and about leading to an expensive recovery and a driver stranded . Still some work needed.

  • @williamfence566

    @williamfence566

    Жыл бұрын

    @@rogerstarkey5390 I'd heard also . Any " new " application of tech will have it's issues . Fossil fuel derivatives have had 70+ years of development

  • @doctormo

    @doctormo

    Жыл бұрын

    @@williamfence566 110 years.

  • @fastfreddy19641
    @fastfreddy19641 Жыл бұрын

    I've often wondered if say an electric car with a small battery and a hydrogen fuel cell range extender could be viable. Use battery most of the time but use gas for long trips.

  • @CorwynGC

    @CorwynGC

    Жыл бұрын

    That's basically what all prototype Hydrogen fuel cell cars are/were. So when they say 'no' to Hydrogen cars, that is what they are saying it to.

  • @jimmurphy5355

    @jimmurphy5355

    Жыл бұрын

    That’s exactly what the Toyota Mirai is. It’s not been a success.

  • @Brian-om2hh

    @Brian-om2hh

    Жыл бұрын

    Er, you just more or less described a hydrogen powered car Fred.......

  • @LiamE69

    @LiamE69

    Жыл бұрын

    Just by making the battery bigger you have a car that is three times more efficient with the same range for a lower cost.

  • @brushlessmotoring

    @brushlessmotoring

    Жыл бұрын

    At this point in time, a gasoline engine range extender is much cheaper, more practical (you can get gasoline anywhere) and with the way Hydrogen is actually made for the foreseeable future, emits less CO2 on the rare occasions you need it with say, a 50 kWh battery. But honestly? Get rid of the range extender and the servicing that goes with it, use the saved cost to up the battery to 70kWh, and with fast enough charging (150kW) you can drive all day with short breaks on just battery. Rent an EV for a long road trip and give it a go - you will have a better understanding once you get hands on with one.

  • @joshualewis3337
    @joshualewis3337 Жыл бұрын

    Good to see the penny has finally dropped on this, and it’s being explicitly and repeatedly explained. Keep it up!

  • @WelcomeToDERPLAND
    @WelcomeToDERPLAND Жыл бұрын

    It's always been time to give up on Hydrogen.

  • @LoneWolf-wp9dn
    @LoneWolf-wp9dn Жыл бұрын

    For the dig site problem you could have like one or more containers of batteries on site to charge from... could be a business renting out charged battery containers... but in the long run if batteries prove not quite good enough for some applications than those applications will change because batteries offer far more flexibility and efficiency

  • @r0ut366

    @r0ut366

    Жыл бұрын

    Agreed! And the weight of the batteries is irrelevant in many of these machines that need weight added to give them stability/traction

  • @GreenJimll

    @GreenJimll

    Жыл бұрын

    Not to mention that you've still got to transport the hydrogen to those remote sites. Unless you can make the hydrogen onsite from renewables you have nearby, in which case skip the hydrogen and charge up the batteries with the green leccy instead.

  • @raphaelcasimir9772
    @raphaelcasimir9772 Жыл бұрын

    Thanks for informing yourself about the subject and changing your views. It's really nice to see.

  • @hamsterminator
    @hamsterminator Жыл бұрын

    Been starting to roll my eyes over this channel ever more in recent years, most ironically because it’s really pushing out some pretty bad FUD which for years Robert has railed against. You have an “expert” here saying Hydrogen isn’t the future of Aviation while Airbus- the actual experts who build airliners, say the opposite. He’d probably also say it was useless for Rockets because the tanks were so big they’d never get to space…

  • @CorwynGC

    @CorwynGC

    Жыл бұрын

    Toyota has experts that say Hydrogen is the way for cars as well. Turns out they can't sell them.

  • @hamsterminator

    @hamsterminator

    Жыл бұрын

    It's telling that Mr Leibrich decided not to mention how big batteries for airliners would need to be. Or what equivalent fuels to today's AvGas would be used instead of Hydrogen? Complaints like these were made about battery driven cars 20 years ago- how well has that aged? There are now powerful players devoted to making sure Hydrogen doesn't work because they've invested in batteries- as well as oil firms promoting Hydrogen. It works both ways and to imagine otherwise is naive.

  • @MLiebreich

    @MLiebreich

    Жыл бұрын

    Have you ever noticed how big the rocket is vs the tiny bit that gets into orbit? Think about why that is. And don't be fooled by companies hoovering up free money for research and pumping out PR.

  • @MLiebreich

    @MLiebreich

    Жыл бұрын

    @@hamsterminator Nah, forget batteries for longhaul aviation. The solutions are Sustainable Airline Fuel (ie same fuel as today, but zero carbon) and flying less.

  • @LoneWolf-wp9dn
    @LoneWolf-wp9dn Жыл бұрын

    The hype around hydrogen comes from an era before 2010 where it was thought that solar panels, batteries, wind turbines could never be good enough... in the meantime those technologies made huge strides while hydrogen hasnt... concentrated solar power plants are in the same category with hydrogen

  • @dhuffman690

    @dhuffman690

    Жыл бұрын

    I think hydrogen still has a role in certain cases like industrial processes and long-duration storage. CSP doesn’t address seasonal storage, which will be needed. I agree it’s not the silver bullet for everything it’s often made out to be

  • @black8art

    @black8art

    Жыл бұрын

    It's ALL about the INVESTMENT, not the efficiency! The battery research establishments got all the dough, so THEY get all the glory! Put the same investment into a COMBINED STRATEGY, and the solutions will be amazing! (I have one, or more, of my own that need research! Coz my mind works like that!)

  • @gusmlie

    @gusmlie

    Жыл бұрын

    When did wind turbines make huge strides. If the wind doesn’t blow.

  • @quixomega

    @quixomega

    Жыл бұрын

    @@dhuffman690 Pumped gravity storage is much more efficient. The only real issue is the space to store the water. But water doesn't need pressurized tanks like hydrogen.

  • @KonsaiAsTai

    @KonsaiAsTai

    Жыл бұрын

    @@black8art Admittedly Toyota has made great progress with their Mirai fuel cells (1st gen vs 2nd gen). So, part of it is definitely "pour money into this technology, get results from research". If you force companies to invest in battery tech, you'll obviously see (some) results. Companies got off the hydrogen train with ever more incentives to jump on the battery wagon instead. Ultimately, my bet is also on batteries, but if only we saw more investment in hydrogen, perhaps we'd actually get something truly revolutionary out of it, too.

  • @artboymoy
    @artboymoy Жыл бұрын

    When the dude was talking about trucking, is that within the UK or Europe? I'm just wondering if the United States would be able to use hydrogen as a good fuel alternative. BTW , I'm not an expert nor do I know the average mileage that semis go in the US.

  • @matthewbaynham6286
    @matthewbaynham6286 Жыл бұрын

    What about powering your flamethrower?

  • @ashmcconnell3868
    @ashmcconnell3868 Жыл бұрын

    Yes

  • @WelcomeToDERPLAND
    @WelcomeToDERPLAND Жыл бұрын

    Lets seeee.... No infrastructure... Same cost if not more as gas.... Extremely dangerous in a crash.... As Expensive as an EV to buy.... Yeah, thats going to be a no for me fam.

  • @louishenn3028
    @louishenn3028 Жыл бұрын

    I have much respect for Michael. His hydrogen ladder is the best, sensible, illustration for the use of hydrogen.

  • @danielmadar9938
    @danielmadar9938 Жыл бұрын

    Great. Can't get enough of Robert. The only discrepancy is that a different hydrogen expert on the podcast a few weeks ago said that hydrogen in marine transport is unlikely since it is expensive and this sector relies on very cheap fuel.

Келесі