Jonathan is really going out there with the philosophical questions

My thoughts are that the law is not entirely due to inbred reasons(biological), but also because of moral obligations which might step into the grey area of rape. For example, it might typically be an older person having an incestous relationship with someone younger, an eg in this case could be a father/older brother with their daugher/sister. One might question if it was the authority or power which your older family member exploited on you which forced you into the rls. Vice versa on genders. Just my school of thought :)

@jiawei0917

2 жыл бұрын

Not to say forced. But sometimes, you get taken care by your parent or older siblings or relatives that you misinterpreted it as romantic love, hence progressing it to lust, and the older ones might take advantage of it. If it’s from the older person pov, it’s the same thing, when the younger relative misinterpreted it as romantic love and treating back with love and offering lust, it’s still morally look. It’s a very subtle sex predatory. But if it’s relatives that met for the first time at legal age since birth, then it’s a social construct. Since family has a common thing where no other relationships will ever have, (which is blood), we will love them unconditionally (or you might argue that the only condition is blood). Friends or bgr will always have some traits that attracts you that make you love them, but family, sometimes it’s mostly purely blood and then seconded with other factors. So to say incest is ok, is to break that social construct, which will lead to more slippery slope I guess?

@Rachelrock11

2 жыл бұрын

ahh my exact thoughts. I think biological and moral reasons aside, the law is created to protect families. If the law cease to exist, there are so many loopholes that one can exploit if they want to - e.g. what you have mentioned an older family member exploiting a younger member or just younger family member misunderstand said feeling as romantic/sexual love due to prolong time spent together. Furthermore, I feel that supporting incestuous relationship downplays the trauma some victims of incest have. It is utterly problematic for any state to declare incestuous relation legal as it will snowball into many family problems and also health problem of the offsprings produced.

@j.reneesiow9142

2 жыл бұрын

Well said , well explain in detail

If incest wasn’t part of the law I think many families would suffer with many problems. Bcus it wouldn’t just simply be between brother and sister. Imagine the whole family being a part of it…

@finneyhamster9106

2 жыл бұрын

But like aren’t there polyamorous relationships?

Omg im loving this podcast so much man love the team dynamic cant wait for more ep for this podcast!

Can you imagine a child growing up thinking that "my grandfather is my father". How will the psychological and emotional make up of the child/person?

@mattyrose75

2 жыл бұрын

if you ask someone thats like not close to their parents their answer might be different i guess

@sylodui

2 жыл бұрын

I mean that argument could be used for anything

Jonathan Paul carried this episode man!!!!

I was laughing so much watching this episode. Thanks guys hahaa

keep it up, loving the podcast!!!!

For incest I agree with Daniel and Nat. You're brought up to not have any sexual thoughts with your family member. If someone said yes to having sexual thoughts them....t hat mean that they are ok with having the sexy time with their mum, cousin, aunt etc. If u suddenly know your partner is related to you. In your head won't u think of them as a family member? My pov Great podcast tho!! So deep Jon can't do this at TSL 🤣

I really enjoy the discussion from yall. Just followed on spotify! Please have a longer podcast duration maybe 45mins - 1 hour maybe? i really think this podcast is going somewhere long term :)

morality develops as a consequence of biology and reiterated relationships. you cant put biology aside.

On top of just the issue with inbred, (I think) psychologically, family members do not view each other as romantic partners. Thus, incest is viewed as just a desperate mean to fulfil one's sexual needs or fetish. The law might even be related to religion and cultural beliefs. Honestly, it is a taboo topic and hardly people will even defend incestuous behaviour or even begin a conversation on it. It is incredible that you guys can talk about it with such light-hearted tone 😂

@moreover1238

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with you 100 percent. How did 3 out of 4 of them end up that (biology aside) “morally”… if both siblings are consensual… incestuous relationships are ok? One’s sexual needs and Jon’s version of “connection” should stand from a point of clear boundaries and healthy viewpoints. And not philosophically opening all doors of liberalities. Morals are built from boundaries that are necessitated since one is young. I wasn’t brought up as a 2 year toddler to be given an option (when I’m legal) or a green pass to at some point have a consensual sexual relationship with my older brother. This kind of education doesn’t happen.

Subscribed! Thanks for the content

Laws are mostly made to discouraged or punished certain human behaviours that could or potentially be question in terms of biologically or morally in the eyes of people. That is why laws are always change or updated. Especially in country like Singapore which have different races and religions. Just my thoughts 💭

Jon woke up challenging everything

I think in order to even attempt to make incest work as a decision that will not cause significant harm to those involved, some parameters have to be set. For instance, the incestuous relationship, be it romantic or purely sexual, can only occur between individuals at the same level (i.e. siblings, cousins). My basis for this, is that I can see how it could be hard for one to proceed with a romantic or sexual relationship if it’s with someone who has been bringing you up all this while (aka your mom or dad, provided they are divorced). The fact that he/she has been bringing you up all this while can serve as a psychological barrier that would prevent you from even pursuing that incestuous relationship to begin with. The only exception I can think of is if the child himself/herself actually expresses attraction towards his/her divorced mom/dad, and vice versa, of course. If that’s the case, then I don’t think that relationship should be restricted, as his/her attraction serves as the justification for the relationship. Another parameter would be that incestuous sex should only be allowed if pregnancy does not follow (as JP also specified). This basically means that 2 blood-related individuals shouldn’t be having sex for the purpose of procreation, but simply pleasure. My basis for this can be attributed to the thought of “imagine your father is your mom’s brother, and is also your uncle”, and vice versa. That’s pretty much just another impossible psychological barrier to overcome. In order to reduce the possibility of incestuous desires spiralling out of hand, I believe that these parameters have to be set before even attempting to make incest work, needless to say it actually working.

@brxndonnnn

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly, if we process the discussion on whether incest should be legal or not, it is basically a question of whether the free will spectrum should be expanded through legalisation of incest. Ultimately, governments in general (especially ours) can never allow their citizens to possess complete free will because that would leave no room for law since everything would be essentially right. Also, we have to acknowledge and understand that our government sets regulations based on distrust. It does not trust most citizens to know how to approach certain things in a non-problematic way, including incest. That is why it is illegal here and will almost certainly stay that way for the foreseeable future (even though its moral implications refute the law), unless somehow the masses can prove they know how to approach incest in a non-problematic way. But even so, an open mind from the government would be required as well. It takes two hands to clap..

Talking about consensus and born xxxx. If someone identified as born murderer “psychopath”, and someone give consent for him to kill (suicidal), is that ok? That’s why it’s dangerous to allow “consensus” as law.

@shortclips2843

2 жыл бұрын

Why isn't that okay? That's perfectly okay

@reeeyou

Жыл бұрын

Consensus will be hard to proof if one party is dead though. But it’s something to think about.

I feel like it’s just a precaution to keep society from going down a path where everybody is interbreeding and Causing the whole society into a downwards spiral…. Morally there is no problem, as a society it’s a major problem, if everyone is doing it

If only there is like a lawyer friend in there, it would be interesting to hear their perspective on this haha

pls invite a lawyer to explain the laws 😂

Ok my 2 cents on incest: firstly, saying it’s ok can be mutually exclusive from encouraging it. i.e., saying you’re not adamantly against incest doesn’t equate to you suddenly manifesting sexual attraction to your entire family out of nowhere. as the cast have already mentioned, biology aside, the only other opposing reason regarding morality that was brought up was that it could potentially ruin family relations too. However, isn’t that also the case for non-incest relationships? Y’know, such as dating someone that your parents are vehemently against? Imo as long as reproduction is clearly prohibited (since it is the one undeniable con of incest relationships), incest simply teeters like a seesaw. There will probably always be people on both sides of the camp, because as much as sibling relations can be universally relatable, each individual’s experience with their sibling is still unique. About the age of consent - i don’t disagree that individually testing everyone’s mental maturity is a good way of accurately determining one’s ability to give consent. However, it does seem like a very tedious solution that may also be difficult to implement well because learning to give consent in a controlled environment would probably feel a lot more different than giving consent in real life scenarios. The best way i could think of would be to simply update schools’ sexual education curriculum About paedophilia - i can see how it might fall under the category of being a (undesirable?) sexual orientation but honestly with all that the LGBT+ community has to put up with even now, it’s probably better to just not drop paedophilia into the mix. I prefer to see it more as a category of “intrusive thoughts”. These are abrupt, usually violent (or at least out of character) thoughts that is a pretty common experience for most people. People certainly aren’t persecuted for having intrusive thoughts as long as they don’t act upon them, so i can understand paedophiles who don’t act upon their sexual urges not being persecuted either.

@JonathanPaulSXW

2 жыл бұрын

Does tedious mean dont do doe?

Age of consent laws are there to protect people from being taken advantage of by adults, and in this case, it would also apply to adult relatives. Before a person reaches the age of consent, other laws to protect them from coercive behaviour could also be used. Just because it's possible for there to be abuse in the case of parents grooming their children and sleeping with them when they reach the age of consent, does not mean that sex between consenting adult relatives should be illegal in principle. It's possible for there to be abuse in a relationship between a married couple, but marriages are not illegal. It is the abusive behaviour itself that should be illegal, not the environment in which such abuse could occur.

I personally believe incest among consensual adults is not wrong in any way shape or form. I am also not attracted to any of my family members, nor do I have any kind of fetish for it.

@gemini4958

Жыл бұрын

By that logic, men wearing longer hair or painting their nails isn't wrong either

@gemini4958

Жыл бұрын

Also by that logic, it's okay if an adult (because older than you would think) uses a bounce house if the want

@Brett101792

Жыл бұрын

@@gemini4958 Correct.

@Brett101792

Жыл бұрын

@@gemini4958 also correct.

@teletubbymeme8171

Жыл бұрын

It causes harm to the offspring that would never be there otherwise

omg is Jon Paul wearing an AP Royal Oak?

Oh my gawd. The dad got to live with that guilt siah

"Does father supercede uncle" L OOOOOO LLLL !!!!

i still think incest is wrong tho ehhhh

@jen5138

2 жыл бұрын

it is !:)

@wacawaka1802

Жыл бұрын

Is homosexuality wrong then?

@wacawaka1802

Жыл бұрын

@@jen5138 is homosexuality wrong then?

11:10 they will call Daniel sperm brother hahahah

So I also am wondering about this situation, I found out my boyfriend's grandpa took their current name at immigration and their last name is originally the same as mine. Are all Wong's related?!

haha.. there are still slight degrees of "incest" in our grandparents/ parents time actually. I have a cousin whose parents are first cousins. Her Mum is the daughter of her father's sister. I guess health reasons apart, in that era, people dont even travel far from where they are their entire lives.. so imagine if they live in a sort of enclave, the thought of inter marriage is not super far out for them, as it is for us now.

📖Leviticus 18: 4--9 "Ye shall do my judgements, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God...None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the Lord."

dan and nat look the same sia

Come on guys 💀💀 incest is wrong la. Society has structures and roles for us to flourish. Not everything is based on feelings or personal choices. Actually ~newsflash~ your personal choices ultimately have impact on society. We are not one man on an island

@Nimish204

2 жыл бұрын

That was the argument against miscgenation and homosexuality.

@sylodui

2 жыл бұрын

Nimish Apte exactly

@blackblackblack7773

2 жыл бұрын

You could say the same for men who paint their nails

Yes because it can cause birth defects that could have been easily prevented otherwise

Daily? Where is Tuesday?

Morally it’s wrong. Please ask Father (priest) It’s so sinful

There are things where we cannot separate and make conlusions ie "putting biology aside". It is precisely due to biology that it is taboo.

Inspired by Spiderman: With greater age, comes greater responsibilities…

Domestic Girlfriend vibes

I agree, morally it’s not wrong to be in an incestual relationship. The problems I see that it might encourage grooming among the older parental figures as it’s ‘right’, and that’s something I can’t get behind with…

Your recessive genes do not become dominant. They get expressed. That's the correct way to phrase it

As a wise man once said, “Incest is wincest.”

It is unclear why the daughter was not prosecuted. In my opinion however, she should be liable for legal repercussion too if she voluntarily involved herself in the acts. Unlike yesteryears, the law regarding incest has been made gender-equitable and her actions fall within the purview of s 376G(1)(c).

@mintsplash

2 жыл бұрын

It’s not about gender equality. There was a power dynamic at play, she is a victim.

@mirandab2831

2 жыл бұрын

@@mintsplash Her circumstance is not disclosed so it's anyone's guess. Nevertheless, the fact that the father was charged and convicted of incest and not rape indicated reciprocality. Of course, there may be severe mitigating factors for her case and prosecutorial discretion was exercised to not press for charges.

@mintsplash

2 жыл бұрын

@@mirandab2831 Not really. There is no other way around it; if one party is the parent, inherently that person holds the power over the other party, which is why consent/reciprocality for incest is inadmissible in court. He also was charged with rape initially but they reduced the charges.

FFS la John... CROCS?

don't like it, don't do it

Jonathan Paul is all ready to get called out by the snowflakes on tiktok

to be COMPLETELY honest for multiple reasons i am were and will be COMPLETELY ALL FOR LEGAL NON REPRODUCTIVE incest ESPECIALLY since i've got a HIGHLY compatible aunt who MOST IMPORTANTLY PREVIOUSLY had GREAT looking facial features

how about the notion...love is love..? if both parties are not minors and they agree to go through procedures to be infertile then there are no biological repercussions...what would be the problem then?

@sylodui

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing

@sufrihadi

2 жыл бұрын

ask the LGBTQIA+ community. generally, they believe love is love. they might have greater insight on that

@youtuber3328

Жыл бұрын

it's nice to meet you and please read my comment

The reason incest is wrong I because there's more to sex than just the physical because morally speaking it's okay if sex is just physical contact

think of all the health problems when you inter marry. that is why it is illegal.....

Not sure why my comment weren’t showing. While it’s an interesting topic to explore and being open about it, but I hope you have a level of sensitivity towards people who had been sexually assaulted/harassed by related family members (during the whole podcast). And I’m one of them, this definitely sparks uncomfortable feeling. It’s even doubly hard to deal with it, makes me feel even more disgusted as a whole, with myself and what happened. And I only understood it was wrong, only when I’m older, even though the perpetrator is of the same age range; such exploitation could happen to anyone if incest weren’t wrong, cause we’re family per say. Only if you have been through such, or have a sibling (of opposite gender), then will you feel it is not right (morality or not). We’re not wired that way, it just doesn’t sit well. The love towards a family member, is without all the sexual attraction and what not, that’s how makes it unconditional, that’s what makes it family.

My view is that consensual incest should be legal. What two consenting adults do in their house is none of anybody's business. The issue with mother son and father daughter incest is the possibility of grooming and abuse. That's a grey area. But incest between cousins and siblings should be legal. There's no excuse to criminalise that. It's like gay sex, I wouldn't ever have it but how and who people have sex with is none of anybody's business.

@friedsotonghead1732

2 жыл бұрын

it becomes other people's business if incestuous couples have children. fyi these kids usually get really fucked up with all the deformities and disorders they suffer.

@Nimish204

2 жыл бұрын

@@friedsotonghead1732 okay, so how about we ban disabled people from reproducing?

Incest is wincest!

The 3 guys just think from male point of view ,totally off, how can incest be acceptable and legal, when adult aim on child is totally wrong, all people have their own desire but who acted on it differentiate bet human or animal

In my POV Incest is alright if putting biology aside. It has to do with what you value as a sibling 🤔 like for example, in the sense that you have a partner now and you found out that he/she is related to you by blood. Would you value them as a sibling even though they haven’t been in your whole life as a sibling ? Wouldn’t it be more akin to just a stranger that shares your blood ? It can also go the other way which you and a step sister/brother grew up together as family and fell in love yet some how in the 2nd situation it is more accepted in society and legal. Depending on the individual, I for one think that family bonds are build through effort and not blood. So to an extend, incest is alright morally (in the sense that is it alright to be romantically involved with your blood sibling) because if I were to say anything else I’d be a hypocrite . Who doesn’t fantasies about having a hot step brother/sister 🌝

@humbleservant4402

2 жыл бұрын

Your menthall ill

you should invite a lawyer to this talk

It is wrong

No it's not wrong. Who's the victim here?? Apparently, there is none.

@teletubbymeme8171

Жыл бұрын

The offspring is the victim

Marriage is not ok but sex and intimation can be happen If it's consensual. Don't make it too big issue 👍

SWEET HOME ALABAMA

Jon Paul kinda sus. 😏 congratulations you all converted John Chua to TeamIncest after 1 episode hahahaha

@JohnathanChuaa

2 жыл бұрын

HAHAHAH NO!

This episode and in particular JP’s take made me feel very uncomfortable. Just to clarify, incestual relationships are NEVER consensual because there is always a power dynamic (parent/child or older sibling/younger sibling) at play.

@JohnathanChuaa

2 жыл бұрын

hahahahah that's what i thought. BUT! What if you and your boyfriend now find out that you're long lost siblings? At way there's no familial power dynamic the whole time. What would you do?

@moreover1238

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnathanChuaa but that’s because you pride connection as the overarching basis to allow the incestuous relationship to continue. To justify partner connection as “morally seems ok” is too simplistic. There’s also societal connection, friends connection that supports the relationship. Unless u want to hide it in the closet all ur life for fear of being shamed. If you found your partner was a sibling. I think you will contemplate your next move. But make no certainty… there will be some steps taken backwards (both nat and jon made compromises to their relationships, break up and not have kids)… will the connection fade at some point? Absolutely

@leelduttis4086

2 жыл бұрын

ALWAYS? Sure, a lot of the time, but that’s like saying that all relationships where the partner aren’t the same age are non consensual. I’m sorry, that just makes no sense

This was a really good conversation, and I'm impressed with how open minded you all are. I'm 22, and within the last few years, I discovered that I'm a pedophile. It's not exclusive for me, so I'm still attracted to adults (though usually not quite as much), and that made it easy for me to sort of ignore the attraction most of my life. It was only after I started re-examining all of my views that I started to pay attention to and analyze that facet of my sexuality. It's absolutely true that being a pedophile doesn't mean you'll offend. Just like most men aren't inclined to rape women, most pedophiles aren't inclined to abuse a child. I would die before I hurt a child. I'm glad you were willing to discuss this topic, even with how taboo it is. Pedophiles truly are one of the most hated demographics of people in the world right now, and that's a really unsafe situation because it isolates people, and if someone is at risk of offending, that isolation will only make them spiral more and more until they probably do offend.

@Averagebum21

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing.

if same sex relationships arent illegal, why should inbreeding be?

@jarrenleow

2 жыл бұрын

Because same sex relationships do not cause negative side-effects unique to same sex relationships. Inbreeding has been scientifically proven to produce defective offspring most of the time. If allowed to occur on a large scale across a long period of time, this could lead to society containing many people with highly problematic health issues.

@thechannelthatdoesnotexist

2 жыл бұрын

@@jarrenleow then why aren't carriers of disease forbidden to have a relationship with non blood related person? Why isn't it a taboo as well?

@sylodui

2 жыл бұрын

Jarren Leow it’s not like they have to have kids

Incest is WRONG!!! Firstly, in every relationship, familial or otherwise, there are BOUNDARIES. Whether these boundaries are originally decided or set by society is debatable; however, as a mother of an 11yo boy, I would like to teach my son that an adult person should behave as an adult: treat all pple young & old with respect, adhere to all boundaries in relation with others & STAND STRONG against every temptation to submit to one’s own sexual desires, especially the perverse ones. That is what makes an adult: SELF-CONTROL. Secondly, boundaries are rightfully there to protect the vulnerable & innocent. Pple often like to normalize romantic relationships between adults with massively huge age gaps. Have you considered what happens when an aged person leaves his equally aged spouse for a much younger person??! How does that impact their family? What kind of faith does that leave the next generation with when they witness such blatant disregard for the sanctity of marriage? What place do the discarded older spouses have in our society after being discarded? What sort of society do we end up developing if we embrace n accept such blatant betrayals of marriages? Would you accept an older person dating & marrying your kid who is few decades younger? How much of an age gap is acceptable to not feel perverse like that? My suggestion is to visualize how old the older person is when the younger partner is born as a newborn. If the older person is 20yo when their partner is a newborn, try imagining this 20yo hvg sex with that newborn baby… is tt ever acceptable to you? No matter what they feel for each other, tt age gap remains there; every life has its seasons n for marriages w huge age gaps, they simply cnt b there for each other thru every season. & society shd state tt THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS. What is a marriage if one cnt live thru the various seasons w one’s spouse?!? What does marriage actually mean if not that? Individually & socially? Thirdly, there is such a thing as the FEAR OF GOD. I happened to believe in the existence of GOD & see the significance of every life with respect to His existence. If every life does matter, young or old, healthy or infirmed, then we as a society should ensure justice (law & order) is upheld in our society. There isn’t justice if an adult has sex with helpless babies/kids who don’t know the meaning of sex/consent; there isn’t justice if pple cn simply discard their aging partners for someone else; there isn’t justice if a married couple discovers tt they are actually half-brother-sister & their kids might develop all kinds of genetical disorders. I am by no means a perfect human being, hvg made mistakes while v young… but hvg grown into an adult, I would clearly insist that adults need to act their own age & fulfill their responsibilities & stick to their Godly boundaries; that wicked, perverse pple need to face punishments for their sins. Justice must be meted out otherwise we would fail the vulnerable & innocent miserably. That’s what our justice system is for. I hv no wish to see my son flounder in a society with injustice, where adult predators prey on the young & ignorant. N we all know justice when it happens bcos deep down inside, we intuitively know the black from the white. IT’S THERE.

Hi fell in love with my Nephew when we first met. We are now a Gay family with daughter from his sperm.

If gay sex is acceptable as part of the norm, why not incest?

@gemini4958

Жыл бұрын

If men painting their nails is okay, then why shouldn't we allow adults to use a bounce house?

Incest is just disgusting and wrong. IMO

@blackblackblack7773

2 жыл бұрын

That's not an argument for why it should be illegal thoug

@buzzlightyearlight1247

Жыл бұрын

If someone commits this, who's the victim involved?? Apparently there is none...

no is not ok. u got a sick mind.

@blackblackblack7773

2 жыл бұрын

Why not?

why is this even controversial incest is disgusting full stop. doesn't need to be debated about any further. are u all running out of ideas or what

12:43 Why the "eee" when earlier she already stated she was ok with incest? The man regarded the boy as his grandson, even though he isn't really. So technically, not incest, but figuratively it was. Still, she was suppose to be ok with incest, right? Not that I am for incest. It's a no-no for me.

@Ohthedenise

2 жыл бұрын

"eee" was for the paedophilia actually. On the point of incest: Like I explained between 7:43 and 8:02, from an argumentative standpoint, I don't see anything wrong if we're purely looking at morals. But despite that, personally I'm not for it and would not like the option to engage in it either.