from now on when the recruiters ask me if im "more" backend or frontend im gonna give them this spectrum and draw my box on it

@ratanlambha2602

Жыл бұрын

Good one

Man I was about to go to bed, then I see “is full stack even real?” Pop up on my ipad

@abhinavrobinson2310

Жыл бұрын

I don't need sleep, I need answers!

@airsoftbros2541

Жыл бұрын

Same, iPad as well

@DaxSudo

Жыл бұрын

Same lol

@glowsack2909

Жыл бұрын

same haha

@XerosXIII

Жыл бұрын

just a little sprinkle of existential crisis before bed lol

You're so good at conveying ideas with diagrams! And good diagrams too, that are intuitive, quick, and easy to understand! I would like to get better at explaining ideas through diagrams.

I'm so glad you added the end part. I asked my manager once if I couldd just make my job title "product builder" because I don't really care about where on the stack I'm working, I just love building cool products.

@lathah8160

Жыл бұрын

Well technically you are a Software Engineer. In that sense, you got the right title

@TomDoesTech

Жыл бұрын

@@lathah8160 That's true, but what I was getting at is that I don't really care about building software, I care about building products. So if that means talking with designers, or writing IAC, I don't really care, as long as the product I am building is cool

Thinking about fullstack in this way has been mindblowing, finally got that little voice in my head to shut up about me not being "REAL" fullstack if I focus on the design~lambda area

The quote about Jack of all trades is actually commonly misquoted. The whole quote is, “Jack of all trades, master of none. Still is better than master of one. “ So it’s super in-line w this videos message about the value delivery created by an engineer vs technical acumen or part of the stack they focus on. Bc frankly if u don’t at least try other parts of the stack ur gonna be a one trick pony.

@j0hannes5

Жыл бұрын

I want to be a Jack Herrington of all trades

@vladimircicmanec6103

Жыл бұрын

In modern times, the phrase with the "master of none" element is sometimes expanded into a less unflattering couplet by adding a second line: "but oftentimes better than master of one" (or variants thereof), with some writers saying that such a couplet is the "original" version with the second line having been dropped, although there are no known instances of this second line dated to before the twenty-first century.[11][12][13][14][15]

Thanks, Theo! This is the best explanation I've ever seen. Hopefully at least one recruiter sees this as well.

love the discussion that it's all a spectrum. how the spectrum is influenced by multitude of things, tools that enable bridging, business decisions that restrict/enable cost savings.also how interest change that a backend can lean towards frontend and vice versa.

Really good vid. Learning so much from your content, keep up the good work! :)

I guess that full stack devs are like inventors since nearly all bright ones also didn't know anything deeply, but deeply enough to build something complete, bringing some value. For instance, they knew some math, some physics and a lot in between and clearly they not only wanted to make it work but also improve the entire system because it's their interconnected experience and knowledge on something that helped them

This isn't something I've thought about all that much but I love your clarity of thought on it and I'll definitely be approaching this topic through this lens.

cool to know you have an infra background! I got into infra pretty much by accident and now I’m trying to pivot more towards frontend/fullstack web dev. love the content!

Thank you for this, Theo. That's a really good way of looking at things. Now, I can call myself a Full-spectrum developer.

maan your thumbnails are on another level 🔥

Really good video! I know this channel is very web dev oriented, but is there a separate argument for those that aren’t doing web dev? How would the categories differ? I am curious how much more ground there is to cover. When you write “backend dev” on the line is this including those that build operating systems, do networking, etc? Or are you referring to web dev backend strictly? I guess the terms themselves are a result of web dev so maybe this doesn’t make sense to compare.

@prenomnom5637

Жыл бұрын

When Theo says "backend", I assume he is referring to the backend of web dev (back-end of websites). There's also the backend for compilers, but backend in the video is not referring to that.

ur so good at visualizing stuff to make it VERY easy to understand wow

Enjoyed the video man. I honestly never know what to call myself because I float so much but I guess that's the point, right? Quick note of feedback: the volume on your videos are more quiet compared to what I'm used too and the bit at the end for those not subscribed was quieter than the main segment. Minor but I thought I should mention it at least

Loved this. We should focus on complete products and the best ways to get there instead of choosing sides.

I really enjoyed this video. Thanks for sharing!

I have experience from infra to all the way up to frontend user experience web/mobile, and i once was called in an interview after designing a whole product covering all those points "Product Software Engineer". I've stuck to that term ever since.

back in and recently got soft soft again, it felt strange and i had previously just taught myself the software. Finding your videos is helping

This thumbnail is priceless.

My day job includes UX research, interpreting requirements, occasional logo/ asset design in illustrator, designing in Figma, building react apps, building backend webapi's (mainly python backends), and deploying to kubernetes. Best job title I can think of is "Gets Stuff Done", but Builder works too.

Awesome video and even a better mindset.

Very well said 🙌🏼

Great video. I don't mind the banter honestly, and since I'm still at the beginning of my career I don't mind hearing the "master of none" part because it does apply, but I can see how the cheekiness and air of superiority from some people can be draining. The ending is on point tho, that's in part why I chose full-stack. There's opportunity everywhere and if I have to call myself one thing or another in order to get a job I'll do it but I just want to build shit. If I want my project to have cool animations and i have to use frontend libraries for that I'll learn those. If I want to expand functionality and need my server to process data in some way I'll learn that too. when you go into companies and the terms speak about who i'm communicating with most often, then i guess I'll worry about it, but for now i just call myself fullstack because I find every part of my projects interesting enough to learn about them.

I'm a designer who decided to start getting involved with HTML/CSS to be more productive. You explaining how front-end/back-end mean different things to different people struck a chord. Now I know when devs tell me the HTML is back-end because it's rendered by the server, it's just because they want me to go away.

@emilz0r

Жыл бұрын

😅

@morganlancer

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, its a real mess, but at its core, HTML and CSS is very frontend, because it can only be rendered on clients side. Lines do become really blurred though if you make a web application in a js framework like React or node.js, because the whole idea of these frameworks is to merge the frontend logic and backend logic into one system. At its core I would say that HTML/CSS itself is frontend, but if its dynamically generated, then whatever code generates these HTMLs are backend. The main difference though, is that the frontend developer builds the UI, the designer decides how the UI should look like, and backend developer connects the UI to the database and other services that are ran on server-side. When the devs tell you the HTML is back-end because its rendered by the server, I will assume they believe they are back-end developers when in reality they are actually "full stack" (my definition: fullstack=at least backend+frontend).

@dripcaraybbx

9 ай бұрын

@@morganlancer I know HTML/CSS are front-end, I'm just making a joke about devs not playing nice with designers. They're actually .NET devs so it took some convincing but they finally let me touch the codebase to play with my piddling .ascx files

I'd include architect is between backend and infra person. I know a lot of backend devs who don't have the first clue on how the internet works and the implications of some of their decisions. Also I am not a designer in terms of making things pretty, but I do make good bread (not even vanilla) UX and work with the user. Then you get an artist to come in and make it look like something a normal person would like to look at because I'm content with command lines.

Fully agree. In addition, lots of devs tend to also switch focus, making it more complex. For example, you could have worked for 2 years on backends and micro-services only to then start building a next application

I remember sometimes before Theo talked about 'this' keyword in JavaScript on his stream and it was phenomenon. The explanation was short but still very easy to understand. I want to use it to teach my newbie friends. Does anyone remember where was it?

@t3dotgg

Жыл бұрын

I can't remember this (pun intended) but if anyone does please tag me in discord so I can make a short out of it!

@sealuke2724

Жыл бұрын

@@t3dotgg You probably make 'this' again 😀

@mjohnson510

Жыл бұрын

@@anhdunghisinh that would awesome if he did talk about that

@anhdunghisinh

Жыл бұрын

@@mjohnson510 i remember he did, just can't find the vod.

This is an amazing perspective.

I was having a debate about this in my head yesterday. Specifically about how "are you more a frontend or backend dev" is a bad question. You have summarised this better than I ever could.

Hi Theo, I am a newbie so forgive me if I get this wrong. But what if you added mobile development to this chart? Could it be said mobile development is somewhat backend and frontend? Because you have to be aware of memory management for small devices as well as the style and functionality for the user experience. I don't know? Maybe mobile development would need its own chart. But mobile sounds a bit of both backend and frontend yet different? Sorry I am still learning React Native and React and I got so much more to work on, thank you for the video. You introduced some interesting concepts.

I legit cover every area you mentioned in this video lol 🤣. Thankfully we hired a Project Manager so... I have to worry a little less about that. If you cover every area of your company's stack -- you my friend are a damn unicorn like myself and give yourself a pat on the back. I say this because if your like me -- I'm up at 2:30 am figuring out ways to fix this legacy code I inherited 😅😭. Call me crazy but I guess it's part of taking a software to the damn moon

Dude yes. I've been wrestling with a lot of imposter syndrome lately. This was really helpful, Theo.

@BobbyBundlez

Жыл бұрын

there are levels to this shit man. I make like 45k a year as a junior making purely static gatsby websites. i've been coding for like 3+ years and thought I would be doing shit like writing crazy graphql full stack mutations by now.. nope. imposter syndrome? eh not really. im still shocked that i get fucking paid to do this shit.. super grateful and know that I didn't give up. so while you have imposter syndrome tbh if you're employed who gives a fuck

@BobbyBundlez

Жыл бұрын

i know nothing. i am such a noob and am stubborn to learn anything new. Imposter syndrome is ridiculous though. remember that there are people out there who can't write a single line of code. you are in this field for a reason.

8:00 PTSD when I heard react-admin. A good example of something that makes easy things slightly easier and harder things impossible to do.

"Jack of all trade, master of none", it's being used quite frequently in the topics of generalist vs specialist. But I notice not a lot of people knows that there is 1 more sentence which being cut off, "Jack of all trade, master of none, but better than master of one" is the full sentence by shakespear.

So I finally learned where I'm at on the spectrum... Love this!

Cool explanation of spectrum! Computer Hardware => Hardware Person => Infra Person => AWS Lambda (Serverless) => Backend Dev => Frontend Dev => Designer => Product Manager => User. Full Stack Dev being a box in between any of these, but mandatory covering BE and FE.

Fair point. Where does the interval begin and end?

I really hate the master of none argument. I go from from frontend react to writing low level graphics code in c++ and rust regularly and can fully keep up with both types of dedicated devs. Having more experience of what is out there makes you a better developer that has a much better grasp of technology as a whole.

Great chat! As a full stack dev I do as much backend work as a backend dev and as much front-end work as a frontend dev.

@emilz0r

Жыл бұрын

You working 200%?

Out of every other videos on KZread only yours was good. Straight to the topic and no bullshit.

Good job man

Great video!

Fascinating argument 👏🏿

Here comes the content train 🚂

Hello i wanted to ask if there is a way to get the excalidraw masterpieces so i can add them to my obsidian Vault :) i rly enjoy all the rants top channel

@t3dotgg

Жыл бұрын

I post them in the sub only discord and on Patreon when people ask!

Very informative video

An alternative to "builders" might be "solvers". The latter implies thinking about the problem and having a solution rather than just building something that might not have an objective. My definition of full stack is more of a mindset/ability rather than a specific skillset or experience. If you can jump into any layer of the stack and help solve a problem, you're a full stack by definition even if certain areas are not your main focus at the time.

I’ve actually worked professionally in that whole spectrum, but the largest chunk of that spectrum I’ve worked in one job was Product through Infra (albeit Infra was only a small part of the work done for that job)

i am one of those that started with js and react and am moving to devops right now

My personal itch is "Full Stack Dev" as both web and mobile app dev. I mean I don't want to build a tool for web only - but for mobile as well. I hope there's gonna be some t3rne obviously efficient stack for it soon. Unfortunately for now I'm lacking enough experience in mobile dev to even have an idea of how efficient can it be.

"You might spend all your time on Infra, you might spend all your time on Figma" Nice rhythm! :)

🔥 drop as always

I like your re-framing of fullstack to mean "being able to build something yourself". If your tech stack is Next.js + PlanetScale + Vercel, then you can build and deploy a complete app, and so you're a fullstack developer. But there are so many tech stacks, and I've built so many applications on so many different stacks that the term would technically mean something different each year. What's stayed consistent is building something. That's why I like to stick with the term "web developer". I'm developing for the web.

One of the best video you've ever made.

The term you're looking for might just be "Software Engineer".

True I do all these things when you’re on a small team or start up you’re a solution finder wherever it is on the spectrum. Grab a book, take a walk and perform

Love your videos. Could you make a video about Lambda funktions and comon usecases for these?

Completely forgot database. I live in APIs/Front-end/database. I'm learning infra and dabble in design, but I stay away from machine/embedded if at all possible.

I'm a backend developer who also does infra stuff and is competent at frontend. I would never seriously describe myself as fullstack however.

excellent thumbnail

1:05 that's a good way to explain it cuz programmers are on the spectrum

11:00 It makes most sense, software engineers are expected to solve problems by building something. This is way more impactful and better than being called with any other title.

It's not full stack devs, frontend devs or backend devs. We are all one and the same, we are developers and creators making colourful $#1T on dark screens 🎉

20 seconds into the excalibury drawing or w.e and im like "ohhhh i see where you're going with this. the backend devs are creepy sickos who live in their basement and don't talk to anyone"

@BobbyBundlez

Жыл бұрын

def wasn't the point but being close to the client often makes me feel human as a front end dev LOL

ill master some infra stuff when i need to. for now ima ship code

The full quote is "A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one"

At my place, we have a: machine learning team devops team backend team frontend team various specialized team and 1 full stack developer I’m think about becoming the 2nd

hardware are the data center guys

100% agree 👍

Even of the notion of a spectrum between low level and high level pc user is real, I think your spectrum line would make much more sense as a star diagram because people tend to shift back and forth between different positions and at the end of the day they have a good overview of the entirety of the spectrum thus removing the opposition between PC and User. Technically nothing prevents peasent frontend Dev to be versed in the glorious art of backend and system administration. You just need CSS in the Terminal and a framework for it.

For me, fullstack means I can get any kind of job in my company and I can complete it without other devs if necessary. Design DB (schema, objects), write java/delphi serverside code, create forms for desktop app or create web stuff in some framework.

Builders, or more like apprentices of everything.

a compiler person might smirk at what a web person calls frontend. their spektrum looks very different, but same terminology. i like the term generalist, being able to figure shit out for the task at hand is what drives me.

For me a true full stack developer is someone that can manage from talking to the user to deploying the solution on a server. A full stack developer might not be the best in art and might not have the best imagination, but is a very logical person that will probably need some help in design even if it's just asking for what the user expects. Usually they are geniuses that might just do the work by themselves or in a small team, surely they need longer when they do such things alone but they will reach the goal in a decent time. In a lot of cases a full stack developer also has to write in multiple languages, would be a benefit to just pick nodejs but reality has a huge variety of languages that solve a different thing and that is also something one must think off when starting a project by themself. Another thing people might not think off is that the development of GUI programs isn't that different to webdev depending on what problem arises. And then there are the people I have the most respect for... indie game devs, because depending on their team size they have to do art, level design, programming, deployment by themselves. I would never see myself becoming an indie game developer but I sure as hell could manage every aspect except making textures and 3d models.

NODDERS

I agree.

u aint full stack unless ur journey begins on newegg and ends with your full CI/CD pipeline live lol

Instead of builders, I think it all goes to the root, which is calling ourselves software engineers. A little too misused to this day but I find that's what describes an engineer who knows all the layers that building software involves.

Would Infra be devops?

Fuck yeah Theo your videos are the shit

yes

What is an infra Person?

what about devops

Lol, the thumbnail is like some Hindu God of Web Dev, in all His multi-armed magnificence 🤣

Great video and I would never hate on Full Stack devs. For me personally, I just don't see the benefit of being a Full Stack, when you can get paid about the same being a front-end stack or a back-end stack. Why work double when you can specialize in one stack that you love more?

@flipperlite

Жыл бұрын

It's always good to continue learning beyond your comfort zone. If you're an entrepreneur, maybe you'll use your extra knowledge to be a founder of a SaaS company.

“A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.” That’s the full phrase and I feel most ignore the second part.

No blueberries, cherries or pecans?

Fullstack means to me to bridge the gap between front- and backend

Theo my counter argument is that your rectangles get slimmer in some areas for the full stack developer. Just because I know CSS it does not mean I am as efficient at producing it as someone who lives it every day. Still subbed because I like how open minded you are. Visualize it as a line is thin ---- for a begineer in a topic and it gets thicker === as they become professional. A full stacks line will be more like this ===----=--==-- Where they know enough to do things end to end but not as well as someone who lives and breathes a shorter thick line. You could claim that sure you could work up a long thick line as far as 'knowledge' goes but it's naive to think you can do everything 'FAST' with a high level of knowledge when you switch so many gears. It's like surgeons, sure a heart surgeon probably knows more then a GP about the brain but the brain surgeon will handle that organ but avoid the heart. Same in law, different specialists even though they 'can' understand all legal topics, it doesn't mean they should dabble outside their specialty, it's actually not fair to the client. Teamwork and having a small professional network that refer clients to each other depending on the task required is ideal.

@olyvar

5 ай бұрын

Only just found this video but I completely agree. I think this needed to be mentioned. I've known many a full stack dev who's knowledge on certain things is severely lacking. Not a bad thing of course but it all balances out

@emonymph6911

5 ай бұрын

@@olyvar Yes and the main point is that, that is all okay. We SHOULDN'T have to 'know it all' its too high cognitive load. He later released a video on his channel about burnout lol.... Go figure. That's like saying an accountant should do all of these: invoicing, collection and the finances why not sprinkle in analysis while you're at it... That's would never fly. Devs should demand dev teams. Ya'll sell yourself short and bring some of the highest value to an organization. Also you SUCK at business processes from what I've experienced so TEAMWORK with other departments and let them assist when you're brainstorming business/code flow.

In the beginning I want to be that mystical full-stack years later i find it futile to learn everything to be full-stack then i realized calling oneself full-stack is futile

@emilz0r

Жыл бұрын

What do you call yourself now?

People call me insane for comparing myself to a construction site worker

You are too wise for such a young guy. I guess I'm the young guy now w programming.

I wanna add that as long as we keep respecting different roles and give ourselves some room of trying other roles, we can put our arrogant behavior aside and keep learning new stuff. Many developers after gaining some experience in their relevant fields, start becoming like jerks and don't bother to insult other devs.

I agree with your portrayal of everything, but I disagree that most full stack devs have skills and experience that resembles your own. My first take is that full stack is actually a management term that represents a desire to treat all technical resources as interchangeable. The second is that full stack colloquially is more "right biased" according to your diagram.

Sounds great. "I like the term full-stack because it means you can build something yourself but what I would prefer is if we start thinking of ourselves as builders instead."

🙌🏾 🔥 💜

Fullstack dev, which stack?