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INEOS Tech Chief Interview - Part 1/4
#INEOS #grenadier #interview
An interview with INEOS tech boss Oliver Schlipf.
00:00 introductions
00:55 overall design principles
02:11 graceful degradation
04:40 AWD vs part-time 4x4
07:14 what is the Grenadier's centre diff?
07:56 why an open diff not a smart diff
09:18 why not an adaptive terrain system?
10:44 payload and weights
13:45 tow ratings
14:53 OBD2 scanners
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Updates, links & clarifications: 1. LC300 engineer interview series l2sfbc.com/developing-a-modern-4x4-lc300-engineer-interview/ 2. Graceful degradation concept l2sfbc.com/how-modern-4x4s-should-be-designed/ 3. Vehicle weights using Grenadier as an example kzread.info/dash/bejne/oWyhspOrma6wp9Y.html 4. Grenadier offroad review kzread.info/dash/bejne/fYib19KbkrXMn8o.html 5. Interview series with AsiaPac boss Justin kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZHylmLGKk8ivfdI.htmlsi=7M6LvlK7_I9cLV6r Part 2 of this series is available for my supporters on Patreon and KZread channel membership. Part 3 and 4 will follow soon.
New manufacturer. But transparent (more so than existing manufacturers). Have they got it 100% right? No. But the fact that you have access to the chief engineer and can ask these sorts of questions without a PR person getting in the way of an honest response gives me hope that they will learn and adapt quickly.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Yes, INEOS have consistently demonstrated openness. This is just the latest example, and of course it won't be 100% for everyone, but if it's 90% for 90% of people, that's a win. This sort of interview is rare but not unprecedented, I also got access to Toyota LC300 engineers. That interview was quite different in style but just as technical. l2sfbc.com/developing-a-modern-4x4-lc300-engineer-interview/
@stevegreen101
Ай бұрын
I see several people making this point that Ineos are more transparent and open than any other manufacturer. That's simply not correct. It may be true if you qualified the statement to talk of any major manufacturer, or at least the norm with many of them reading the comment about Toyota being an exception. It's certainly not true when you talk about small niche manufacturers. Lotus, TVR, Ariel, Morgan as a few examples. All seem to engage to a far greater degree with their ownership groups on a far deeper level.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Fair point 👍
Some very well considered questions. I would guess that for an "adventure vehicle" you need greater resilience to soft failures than needed for ordinary road use. Sadly with my most recent cars I have resorted to obtaining dealer software, it is not a case of hacking the vehicles but is needed to "reset counters" when you do simple maintenance, for instance changing transmission fluid or even replacing a battery. I do understand that a representative from the makers is not wanting to make too many assertions of what can be done with a standard OBD tool, it perhaps needs someone to investigate.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Definitely you need greater resilience. Your business, holiday, or even life may depend on the vehicle working and to have the car in limp mode because of a wheel speed sensor, gear selection problem etc is wrong.
Another well researched and pertinent interview Robert. It had me even as a light duty 4x4 owner with simple engineering but added hub locks up front part time 4x4 ute Dmax
It makes sense to have a torsion centre differential. A lockable open centre is not necessarily stronger. Mitsubishi for example have had a very strong torsion centre for decades. Cheers
Perhaps ask when we can expect to be able to reset the maintenance indicator after an oil change/seevice performed by self. This one is a huge miss for owners who bought this vehicle on the promise of being easily serviceable.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Good point!
What we Grenadier owners all want to know specifically: “Is there an OBD scanner we can use that reads and corrects errors and if not, why not?” When will the workshop and parts manuals be released?
@L2SFBC
2 ай бұрын
I know, I know! I've asked the question directly twice and you can see the answers on the video. Here is the written answer and question sent after interview: 3. OBD2 scanners - are retail-level OBD2 scanners able to a) identify faults and b) temporarily clear fault codes, or has the clear function been disabled? - generic OBD2 scanners / diagnostic scanners will have limited accessibility to INEOS systems - the function has not been disabled - more likely the scan tool manufacturers have not (yet) developed INEOS specific read capability - regulatory / or policy cyber security measures may also impact reader capabilities (this applies to all brands)
@DavesIneosGrenadier
Ай бұрын
I must be the one Grenadier owner who doesn't want an OBD scanner or the workshop manuals.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
@@DavesIneosGrenadier you will, when you run into a problem far from help :-)
@DavesIneosGrenadier
Ай бұрын
@@L2SFBC agree 100%. Important that i acknowledge and understand my shortcomings.
@bakepl
Ай бұрын
Thank you. Fingers crossed an aftermarket bidirectional tool becomes available as well as the promised access to manuals...
I 100% agree with the use of permanent 4WD. I believe part time 4WD is a totally pointless exercise - why have 4WD if most of the time it isn’t. 2WD isn’t needed in a 4WD/4x4 - that’s the point. You don’t buy a 4WD to go 2WDing. The fuel savings have been tested over and over and they are negligible 2WD vs 4WD). In summary if a vehicle is 4WD, make it permanent 4WD and forget this part time rubbish. However - As for the “centre diff” being either open or locked - I disagree. A permanent 4WD should have a variable “centre diff” (lockable is an option if you want) as long as it can vary from essentially open to essentially closed; 0% (or near) to 100% (or near). Either locked or open is rubbish as has been seen by the Grenadier’s performance.
The wheel speed sensor is an interesting point. Doesn't the Grenadier require this for the use of the axle diff locks. You can't relock a diff until the wheel speed sensor has confirmed it's unlocked?
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
When you unlock the unlock will happen but the light doesn't go out until there is a wheel speed difference. Don't know if that is measured at the wheels or shafts. Interesting question.
@Alaster-
Ай бұрын
Pretty sure Ronny Dahl found out the lockers still engage/disengage on each press, but the indicator light only drops out via confirmation of the speed sensors. Meaning that if you press the locker button too many times in a hurry to disengage, you won't know if it's trying to engage or disengage. Pretty big oversight on ineos' part imo. A 0/1 toggle switch would have served much better.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
I discovered exactly that months ago on my first test. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fYib19KbkrXMn8o.html
Less electronic reliability - why then does things like the front winch & rear NATO socket run through the Body Control Module and the winch not operate or power is cut to the rear socket via electronic inputs remote from the driver inputs? Why the inability to engage the axle diff locks in high range or the front diff lock without the rear?
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
In a future part I ask specifically why the lockers are set up the way they are. I would prefer complete flexibility, front without rear, and both in high range. You never know when you may need any given configuration. I also ask about the winch setup. In the case of both, I suspect the answer is protection of the vehicle. It is relatively easy to snap CVs by abusing a car with the front locker in only, less chance with a centre-rear-front process. I'm sure if complete flexibility was permitted people would break the car, hence restrictions. However, INEOS have a driver-control mantra, so let it be driver control, even if that flexibility is hidden in an expert menu. In a later part the response when I ask about why no front locker without rear the answer is "see no need for it" - which to me indicates insufficient time has been spent offroad driving.
@stevegreen101
Ай бұрын
Yes, I'd agree as to what may be the consequences but we are stuck in a no man's land where we are told that the vehicle is a driver's vehicle with minimum electronic interference but we are having to find out for ourselves and share the information where that is clearly not the case. If only we had access to workshop manuals that described the design and operating philosophy of the various systems then we could better understand these things.
The fact that he has to take a note and check on DTCs and ODB readers seems to suggest that he's not alive to the issue. That's disappointing. All we're getting from Ineos is fuzzy answers on this. Ease of repair was on the piece of paper he held up as the original spec!
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
A good point - I wish I'd have made the link between ease of repair and OBD2.
He calls it permanent 4WD, yet in the video you continually referred to it as permanent AWD. My understanding is that there is a difference between these two types of driving systems, so who’s right here, does the Grenny have permanent 4WD or an AWD system?
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Both terms are correct. The Grenadier drives all four wheels, all the time, so it is an AWD (all wheel drive) vehicle. This is also known as permanent 4WD. It has a centre diff to avoid the problem of transmission windup, explained here kzread.info/dash/bejne/Y3l8xdSjec_ReM4.htmlsi=knaUcugRqhPFLeEv Another solution for that problem is part-time 4WD, where the car runs in 2WD on high-traction surfaces, and 4WD in low-traction conditions. Hence the distinction.
@nirfz
Ай бұрын
That's a bit of a language barrier thing i think: Mr. Schlipf is german. And in the german language there is no difference made by anyone between what's called 4x4, awd 4wd. Or let's phrase it different: in german all these three terms mean the same thing as long as the vehicle has 4 wheels: all wheels are powered. (or can be powered) If it's a 6x6 or 8x8 it would still be called awd (allrad) in german because all wheels are driven. (or can be) The addition of the words "part time" or "permanent" is what makes the difference in german. (although we use the word "zuschaltbar" which more or less means "shiftable" or "switch on" instead of the litteral translation of part time) And he clearly is more used to the technical terms in his native language than to the correct english phrasiology of car enthusiasts. (which also makes sense, as the devellopment was mostly done by Magna in Austria, and the engineers here also speak german ;-) )
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Maybe, but INEOS seems to use English, I am speaking English to him, and we are both well versed in 4x4 drivetrains. I think we understood each other!
@jerrymyahzcat
Ай бұрын
Mate - AWD and 4WD are just names like anything else. It’s more about how it’s set up and configured. It’s a 4WD and it’s an AWD. But it’s a Permanent 4WD not a part time 2WD which is in my opinion, totally pointless. And as said 6x6 is AWD or permanent 6WD could be an option. 6x4 is 4WD. But again - just names meaning really how many wheels are driven.
Odd to say everything designed around functionality which has payload high on the list, then fail to meet the brief of 1 tonne target in favour of a secondary goal.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Yes. What point robustness if it can't carry? Trialmasters have very little front axle load left.
6:28 The comment about drive train loss: isn't that technically only correct if the fornt wheel hubs would be able to disengage the front wheels in a part time 4wd? Otherwise in both cases the same amount of parts need to be moved. In part time 4wd this happens over the detour of the ground by moving the car you move the front wheels, the front diff and the front driveshafts even if you sidconnect it in the center. And in permanent 4wd with a center diff, you move the same parts but directly instead of indirectly. So the fairy tale of part time 4wd needing less fuel than permanent 4wd is (in my opnion) just that: a fairy tale. (unless, as i said there is also a drivetrain decoupling at the front wheels so the driveshafts and front diff would be able to not spin. But i think there are very few cars on the market that can do that today. At least here in central europe there is none to my knowledge) Also: Fun Fact from a book about the Audi quattro system: Audi engineers in the late 70's when working on the first quattro were surprised that it didn't increase fuel consumption as much as they had calculated. They then figured out why: a driven wheel has less rolling resistance. (Meaning the front wheels in a permanent 4wd car have less rolling resistance than in a part time that is in 2wd.) In my opinion permanent 4wd has the advantage that the toque of the engine is split between 4 wheels, and so each tyre-ground interface has to deal with less torque than in 2wd. So when driving on a slippery surface, wheels will start to spin "later".
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Yes, AWD as per Grenadier, Subaru etc uses more fuel due to greater friction with more rotating parts. This is why carmakers use on-demand AWD systems, either driving front or rear only and adding the other axle when required, and yes ideally there needs to be a disconnect at the hubs for max efficiency but there is still a gain. Land Rover has quietly moved the Defender into RWD with front axle on demand as it changed the L663's centre diff to a clutch. So part-time 4x4 is lighter, cheaper, and simpler, hence my surprise he said AWD was simpler. There are several pros and cons to AWD vs part-time 4WD. I'll cover them another time.
@nirfz
Ай бұрын
@@L2SFBC The clutch systems: It is cheaper, yes, and they then often use parts that are not as heavy duty for the part time axle as they figure it gets used fewer times anyways. That all means it also reduces long term and heavy use durability. And more wear. The clutchpacks, while running wet do still wear more than a diff. I think his idea of simpler means computer/softwarewise: a center diff with a locking feature activated by the user needs less programming and testing than those clutch systems. (as they need to activate the right amount in the right moment)
@jerrymyahzcat
Ай бұрын
Land Rover also have what’s called Active Driveline which can Disconnect the unused driveline parts actually saving a little fuel for real.
I don't think he knows as much as this channel's viewers.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Different perspectives. INEOS owners are often highly experienced 4x4 drivers and owners, with an interest in the vehicle centred on its operation as a driver. Typically, this perspective is not the same of that of the engineering teams of any given 4x4 who have to balance many different factors, and often lack the driving/ownership experience of their customer base.
Wondering if loss of a wheel speed sensor would affect the ability to disengage diff locker(s).
@Alaster-
Ай бұрын
The sensor evidently only triggers the locker light to go out. The lockers will disengage earlier, but without any real indication. So you could unlock and take an educated guess as to whether they did.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
Watch this where I cover that point kzread.info/dash/bejne/fYib19KbkrXMn8o.html
@stevegreen101
Ай бұрын
@@Alaster-For some reason only known to Ineos (or maybe just Magna), the front and rear diff lights also flash after reconnecting the battery. So there's more to the light logic than just the wheel speed sensor.
@Alaster-
Ай бұрын
@@stevegreen101 it seems the lockers have no in built sensor to give the current state of their position, seemingly relying on button push to activate the light, and then the wheel speed sensors to deactivate. I would think a battery disconnect would leave it in a panic style state of unknown until confirmed with the speed sensors.
@L2SFBC
Ай бұрын
I ask this question in a future Part of this video.
Great questions, some incredibly bad answers from the chief engineer. Sometimes he has no idea what the background of your questions is 🤔
@Alaster-
Ай бұрын
Fair amount lost in translation I could see, possibly due to nerves on Rob's behalf, especially if given a short interview time. Couple of double ups in questions as well asking a question that old mate had basically just answered. Being more concise and to the point is helpful with engineers, especially German ones.