Thanks for being at least "somewhat kind", Neil! I suspect you and Brian are correct. The steering stops were likely not adjusted properly on the BX I tested. I did not attempt to adjust or validate the steering stops on either machine. I assumed dealer/factory had set them appropriately. I would not expect a first time tractor purchaser to need to check this adjustment. There are some comments here saying that I "painted" in the wrong location ...by the rear tire. I did my best to approximate the uncut circle, yes, painting by the rear tire...but watching the edge of the deck closely. I do NOT believe there is significant error in my measurement approach. The error was likely entirely in the steering stops adjustment. I did not attempt a clockwise (right turn) test because I didn't think I could accurately determine the edge of the cut. Remember, I had no growing grass to work with at that time. I like that Neil did that. Very informative! Folks probably won't believe me, but I honestly don't care which tractor "wins" in such a comparison. I just wanted to be accurate. Having said that, and just to stir the pot again, I can't resist saying that after all of the hubbub about this, it appears that the 1025R still has about a 15-20% better uncut circle diameter. Right? One last comment. I have lots of respect for Neil. I consider Neil a good friend. It is fun to have these back and forth comparisons. I believe both of us want to deliver accurate info.

@mattleblanc31

Жыл бұрын

I would argue the not in "I would not expect a first time tractor purchaser to need to check this adjustment". Whether new or used, I wouldn't trust the dealers and especially private sellers to do everything right. One common thing dealers miss/forget in PDI on the BX is top up the front axle fluid among many other things like mower bracket adjustments and these axle adjustment jam nuts. You could have a green guy doing it, making rookie mistakes or just overthinking like they do. You could have the best, most experienced tech that has bad habits, making assumptions despite design changes on small part revisions etc. They could assuming its fine and rushing to get home, or just having a bad day and not focused. Every owner should double check and fully learn all this stuff in the beginning as it'll become normal maintenance checks later anyways.

@brianbecker7588

Жыл бұрын

I thought you did a really good job with your method without tall grass to use, as mine was difficult to see the cut grass difference. I think you and Neil both bring impeccable integrity with your entertainment, and I totally agree that we all just want to make sure the information is accurate when we find some info that does not seem right. And LOL yes, 15-20% is still a clear win! And as you pointed out, the steering cylinder behind the axle is a much safer place on the John Deere...and even my 1984 John Deere 420 does not have an exposed steering cylinder.

@ScottHammet

Жыл бұрын

@@mattleblanc31 I can confirm that when I checked my new BX's fluids shortly after delivery--typical fluid check before using the tractor--I found my front axle fluid was so low it didn't even register on the stick. Dealer forgot to inspect and top off. That said, I'm really happy with my dealer in every other respect. But to Tim's point, without a baseline to which to compare, the average tractor purchaser wouldn't check something like the steering stop. I never have, and I have adjusted several other items as I've come across them and noticed something not quite right, like the lift limits on the rear and mid PTO.

Nice Job Neil. I like Tim also. I really like how you set out by explaining things with out Bashing others. Very professional.

I do follow Tim’s channel. He readily admits not being interested in factory specs, capacities, etc. My BX2380 does everything I need it to do.

Just cracking a beer, sitting back, and starting to read these comments! Better than cable!!! Great video, Neill!!!👍

Great video, as always. I love my 2380. I mow a patch of woods with over 50 trees -- most of them spaced just far enough apart to make it through with my 60" deck. At first I was trying to turn tight around each tree, and it was a frustration. However, over time, I figured out a mowing pattern that allows me to make multiple passes from different directions and avoid the need to hug each tree on each pass. Sure, a zero turn would be easier, but with a little planning and mowing "strategy," my little BX still makes short work of it.

That is a great video! Learned a lot. Thanks for video.

Ahhh. So that's where all those crop circles come from.

Great thorough and informative video, and I am glad I am not the only one fascinated by these facts. We need to also message Tim as I believe I figured out why the stops were so far out of adjustment on his bx2680 that he borrowed from Courtney at Good Works Tractor. I figured it out watching Courtney's video on his BX23 (very unflattering Kubota BX video) where he was disappointed when he installed his wheel spacers that his BX front tires would now bump into the mower deck when not even turned all the way. I am willing to bet that the previous owner of Tim's borrowed 2680 had wheel spacers on and adjusted them so his tires would not hit the deck. Since the wheel spacers can be used on other sub-compact tractors, he likely removed them before he sold his bx2680 to Courtney (maybe?), but would not have thought about adjusting the stops back to factory spec. Thanks for the update video and editing my video to make it look halfway decent LOL.

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I do. not think this machine ever had spacers. I doubt very much that original owner (or Courtney) adjusted the steering stops. More likely, they were never adjusted properly by the factory or dealer. Remember, that BX2680 that I borrowed only had 50 hours on it.

@brianbecker7588

Жыл бұрын

@@TractorTimewithTim Yeah, my theory could be completely flawed. 50 hours a year is not much, but seems to be about the average per year for homeowners sub compacts in my area and for me as well as what I saw when searching for 1023e/1025r info at GreenTractorTalk. Oh well, maybe Courtney can adjust his BX wheel stops so his tires don't hit the deck and mow a circle for us? FYI--I found another superior feature on the John Deere when I went to remove my rubber mat on my BX2380! Yes, us Kubota folk have annoying plastic rivets where as you John Deere folk get a rubber mat held down by real bolts!!

Great info Neil. I knew you’d figure it out.

Nobody would have known otherwise. Thanks Neal!

Another thing that would make a big difference is the tire type. I bet a turf tire would do a better job because they have more lateral grip than something like an R4

Don’t forget toe angle and total toe can effect turning radius and even steering effort.

Interesting test, I never knew it was that big of a concern

@kdegraa

Жыл бұрын

If you want to mow around trees or make tight turns at the end of rows, a tight turning circle is better than a wide one.

Not a sub compact, but a decent L&G tractor were the Toro 260 series and they turned tighter than the Toro 5xi tractors I own. They were fairly well made but you wouldn’t put a loader on one. If it wasn’t for the stress on the rear axle I’m guessing more riding mowers would have had L & R independent rear brakes.

I use the turning brakes on my 4240 when mowing. But with my machine being larger, my turning radius will be larger.

Just finished watching. One big question, what size mower deck was on each tractor? I know Deere offers 2 sizes on the 1025R. the smaller the deck, the larger the radius.

What? You didn't have your wife hanging off the side of the tractor drawing chalk circles? Tim's a little obsessed with driving in circles. My opinion, if you need to cut that close to that many things and it is really that important, then you need a zero turn. Great video Neal...might have to reach out to your sales dept for a shop manual for my MX.

I would think looked at adjusting right side, n set both

Yep, now try it with a smaller deck. I own a service manual for my JD X738 but have never opened.

Sure hope Tim brought your tires back lol love it your doing great!

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I'm still enjoying Neil's tires. Maybe I'll return them after a few years of use??

@jGoodloejr

Жыл бұрын

@@TractorTimewithTim we know that Tim and Neil does too! Just kinda on going joke ! I’m sure you and Neil have discussed this over a Cheese Burger and exchanged ideas! To the Benefit of two respected businesses! lol

I have no doubt that Tim's tractor gave him the numbers he reported!

It does look like Tim measured by the wheels vs. the edge of the mower deck. That being said Tim has very pro deere and anti-Kubota spin to his views. Even though he bought a Kubota, he hasn't given it a fair chance. He obsessives over things like length of the PTO vs things like quality of machine and things that matter

when I bought my "other" brand sub compact tractor and took my first turn in 2wd, I was beyond surprised how tight it was.

@wildbill23c

Жыл бұрын

Turning radius between my lawn tractor and my BX isn't too much different, the lawn tractor turns a bit tighter of course as its a little bit shorter wheel base, but not by much.

@phild9813

Жыл бұрын

One of the things I’m most pleased about on my b2650 is it’s turning radius, particularly when maneuvering around our buildings and fences and such while moving snow.

@Staki6908

Жыл бұрын

Turning radius on my Branson is much tighter then on my the Kubota m108 or the NH Workmaster 60, it's a huge difference.. why?

I don't see a service manual for the 2650/lx2610 on your website

Can you measure the radius without the deck, as a smaller deck will have a larger deck radius than a larger deck?

I think Tim take is mesument on the side of the rear tire

The mower is probably off set to allow for the discharge chute. Interesting about the axle stops. It would be interesting to see how much you would need to adjust the stops out to get Tim's results, I am thinking not much.

@wildbill23c

Жыл бұрын

Its offset for the discharge chute, and to make trimming around trees and obstacles easier. I have a lawn tractor with a 42" mower deck which is pretty much centered under the mower, my Kubota BX has the 60" mower....trimming around trees, bushes, and the perimeter of the yard is 100x easier with the Kubota because of the mower deck being extended off to the left side further.

Any chance they were different size mower decks?

Between your videos and tims the kubota is more of a actual tractor the bx2380 has more 3point lift capacity, way more pull and more pto hp. So when it comes to actually working it the kubota is better. I have never found the fel lift capacity to be a issue and kubota engineers got that right when you look at the other factors eg tires. Nor have i found the position control to be a issue and we do alot of in ground impliments.

@paullambert2668

Жыл бұрын

I always figure the small JD does a bit more than the BX. Because it's a bit bigger machine. It's halfway to a B2601. But if you wanted to do more, why not buy a B2601. It costs about the same as the small JD, and is quite a bit more capable. Of course, the next JD up is between the B2601 and the LX. Nothing is exact in comparisons, and the steps between these machines are so small anyway. My BX did everything I asked of it. My B2601 does a bit more. No doubt I could have been happy with the JD too if I was that way inclined. Numbers aren't everything. And a tractor will always make you happier than a wheelbarrow.

@BurtsRanch

Жыл бұрын

Yes you are correct a b series would suit some of what we do better but seeing our main purpose is mowing the bx does that role better on our property. But our bx branches out in to its other jobs perfectly. We have access to multiple big tractors for the big jobs anyway.

@paullambert2668

Жыл бұрын

@@BurtsRanch Which is fine for your use. Some people have only one machine, and I see a lot of people head to head comparing the JD 1 series and the BX. In reality the BX is a little smaller. So that comparison doesn't flatter the BX. But if you wanted to lift more....why buy a BX in the first place.

@BurtsRanch

Жыл бұрын

@@paullambert2668 100% agree. Hence i said i feel kubota got the lift capacity of the bx correct. If you need to lift more get a bigger tractor or something else so were on the same page.

Interesting. It looked to me that Tim was measuring right outside the left rear wheel, not the edge of the mower deck. Tim's dimension would be larger than what the deck provides.

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I did my best to estimate the edge of the cut grass. Doubt there was much difference there. However, the steering stops were likely mis-adjusted on my machine. I did NOTHING to adjust steering stops on either BX or 1025R. Both were relatively new, so I assumed (error?) that they were set from the factory.

I watched both of you guys. That being said Tim is green and just has a token orange. Nothing wrong with that just a true observation.

@MJF40

Жыл бұрын

Me too and love watching both. You made no mention of what you think Neil is in comparison. To me, Neil is anti-green and understandably ! I shopped both BX23s and 1025r and that video series swayed me green ! No joke and No regrets ! So I too found this interesting yet I felt Tim was fair to a point. Tire pressures, steering stops unknown. I would consider Kubota down the road and would consider Messick’s although Marshall machinery is very close and I know the family. I watch as many Kubota YT channels as John Deere YT channels. At times , I no longer see the machine and just enjoy the content and the individual. Imo, Tim doesn’t nit pick other YT videos either. My .02

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

green or orange. I do my best to be accurate. Same with this test. I did NOT attempt to adjust the steering stops on either tractor. Assumed they would have been set accurately from the dealer/factory

I'm not overly familiar with Kubota tractors but don't they have bi speed for turning sharper with scuffing the turf?

@MessicksEquip

Жыл бұрын

Years ago, that feature is gone from today's models.

Some mower deck shift when you turn to get a tighter turning radius

@danstevens2204

Жыл бұрын

On what machine??

@obieacres4676

Жыл бұрын

@@danstevens2204 some of the cub cadets

I know this might not matter. But does the bx2680 actually have a different turning radius vs the 2380.. I know it shouldnt realistically matter. But. Does it by weight and such? Is the 2680 adjusted differently or something of that nature.

@wildbill23c

Жыл бұрын

The physical size of the BX2380, BX23s, and BX2680 are the same. So, to get different turning radius results would just be due to differences in the wheel stops.

Multiple passes tighten things up too

@brianbecker7588

Жыл бұрын

Tim did multiple passes as well to make sure he got it tight.

Did they have same size mowing deck?

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

Yes. All tests mentioned...Neil's, Brians, and both of Tim's all used 60 inch decks.

I believe Tim was measuring from the inside rear wheel not the mower deck. granted it was labeled as uncut turn and its completely possible the tractor was not adjusted properly.

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I did my best to estimate cut radius. Not as accurate I'm sure as Neil's test since I didn't have any actively growing grass to work with. However, I don't think much error generated in my measurement approach. I suspect the error would have been in the steering stops.

You should leave the pattern in the lawn as a conversation piece.

If you go back towards the beginning of the video with Tim's video excerpt his video has a note in the upper corner saying he was in 4WD, so being in 4WD making a right or left turn is certainly going to give you a worse turning radius, and I believe may have been the part that Tim was referring to. Although, I don't particularly think mowing in 4WD would be a good idea, it certainly can be done but I'd keep it to more straight line type mowing than trying to make sharp turns. Another thing too, if someone smashes the diff lock pedal down by accident even in 2WD I bet your turning radius would be pretty dismal too.

@arthurr8670

Жыл бұрын

I have a few spots that need 4wd, that I just avoid with a zero turn. I've been stuck before, and don't want to go through that again. The rest of the yard, I wouldn't use 4wd, it would be a waste there.

@brianbecker7588

Жыл бұрын

Tim explained the measurements very carefully for 2wd and 4wd for the Kubota and the John Deere.

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I tested both 2WD and 4WD (just like Neil). I suspect the steering stops needed adjusting. I did not attempt to adjust on either BX or 1025R.

@wildbill23c

Жыл бұрын

@@TractorTimewithTim The excerpt in Neil's video showed when you doing the 4WD section of your test, but that's beside the point, I remember when you did your turning test video, I was surprised how well both machines did honestly I was expecting much worse....I wonder how much different it would be if you did the same tests but with the loader installed? Would it cause the tractor to push through the turns in both 2WD and 4WD? Do you have a Kubota BX that you can redo that test with Tim? I'm curious what the difference would be, loader on VS off, 4WD/2WD. Have you adjusted the stops on your machines yet? Is the 1025R's stops similar? I'm guessing the same with the stops, however I wouldn't think they're too far off. I know with my BX2680, trimming around things I always trim with the left side of the machine of course, so it gives a much tighter turn...I've noticed the same doing loader work too, turning left is a tighter turning capability than turning right.

You didn't mention the use of the split brakes where available in decreasing the turning radius. Braking the wheel on the inside of the turn can dramatically reduce the radius.

@MessicksEquip

Жыл бұрын

Nobody puts split brakes on this size tractor

@jimputnam2044

Жыл бұрын

WHEN HAVE YOU SEEN SPLIT BRAKES ON A MOWER REELY?

@paullambert2668

Жыл бұрын

@@MessicksEquip True enough. The B2601 isn't that much bigger, and turns a bit sharper. If you don't mind tearing up your turf.

@danstevens2204

Жыл бұрын

My 1953 TEA20 has turning/split brakes. No mower deck tho and it would benefit from some front ballast although I’ll never need to replace the front tyres.

@evanstauffer4470

Жыл бұрын

@@MessicksEquip Why not? The old Deere 400 series garden tractors had split brakes. As you said in another video, with sub compact & compact tractors (and as many commenters have also said in relation to ZTRs), their strength is in applications other than lawn mowing, where split brakes are helpful. If an owner is worried about tearing up turf, they can always lock the brakes together or simply use the hydro for normal service braking.

OK, so what about the most important comparison spec, lift capacity?

@jimputnam2044

Жыл бұрын

oN A MOWER lol ??

@barelystablefarm7151

Жыл бұрын

@@jimputnam2044 no, on the BX's loader that most people buy with a machine

@paullambert2668

Жыл бұрын

The small JD lifts more. It has bigger front tires, and a bit bigger front axle. So it makes sense to put a bigger loader on it. If you wanted to lift more than a BX, you could of course buy a B2601. Depending on your location/dealer it could be the same price as a 1 series, but it lifts a lot more. I think spec peeping on these things is a bit crazy. To my mind the BX is made for the guy who wants a tractor, but his wife wants a ride-on. He can tell her it's just the same size as a ride on - hence the small tires etc. The B2601 is about the same length and width, but is quite clearly more in the tractor category than the ride on category. Not gonna fool the wife with that one. If you need to convince the wife you only bought a ride on - the BX is the machine for you. If you have specific tasks that need more capacity, then buy a B2601. Or buy a JD 1 or 2 series if you happen to like green instead.

Tim was measuring in at the tire, not the circle left when cutting the grass.

@brianhillis3701

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. He measured turning radius not unmown radius. You need to know if you can go into an area and get out. In my tractor I can turn sharper in 4wd if I am willing to let the front wheels dig ruts. If I drive normally I avoid 4wd when I can. My hills make that a rare occurrence though.

@brianbecker7588

Жыл бұрын

@@brianhillis3701 Did you watch Tim''s entire video? Neal did a good job trying to duplicate what Tim was doing.

@brianhillis3701

Жыл бұрын

@@brianbecker7588 every second of it. Did you miss him spray painting the ground by the tires?

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

@@brianhillis3701 I believe my 'spray painting' was accurately showing the uncut circle. Yes, I painted by the tire, but if you watch the machine turn, this seems to directly match with the uncut circle. I do not believe there was much if any inaccuracy in that area. I suspect the steering stops were set incorrectly on the BX I tested. I did not adjust steering stops on BX or 1025R. Assumed both were fine from the factory.

I thought donuts would be more fun!! Tim made cheeseburgers not donuts....

@TractorTimewithTim

Жыл бұрын

I'm hungry!

Fun video indeed. But did I see right? You did not disengage the mower when changing from 2WD to 4WD? I always thought it could damage the transmission or something.

@MessicksEquip

Жыл бұрын

No issue. Independent PTO.

I love Tim's channel also, but he does bleed Green. Just sayin

Grow up Niel! I see what shapes you cut

@tomkeating65

Жыл бұрын

Circles?

@person86422

Жыл бұрын

@@tomkeating65 apparently you're the adult in the room.

@MessicksEquip

Жыл бұрын

:-)

Come on Timmy, suffering the green paint, misspelt animal branded mind altering affliction that so many fall victim to.