It’s an interesting conversation. I don’t think monolith commanders are inherently bad, but I do think that, as the deck’s builder and owner, you have to know whether or not you have a monolith commander and prepare accordingly. Don’t be mad that everyone is gunning to remove your Muldrotha or Winota. You know what you’ve built and how integral your commander is to your deck working, so plan accordingly.

@Breviparopus

4 ай бұрын

Just put in some protection

@Lootprechaun

4 ай бұрын

What's a monolith commander?

@chamaohug0

4 ай бұрын

I totally agree. I like to build decks that rely on the commander be in play, so I tend to follow the first rule: Don't make yourself a target, as well as wait for a moment that I will get a least some value or that I can protect it, or better, some other player make themselves the target, and when possible include some alternative commander ou backup plan.

@snowmanO07

4 ай бұрын

@@Lootprechaunthat’s what this whole video is about lol how did you get to this comment without watching the first 2 minutes?

@Lootprechaun

4 ай бұрын

@@snowmanO07 I have just never heard this creators take on those types of commander's. Been playing EDH for a long time and never ever heard that said.

For gods sake, play weird commanders. Just do it. No one will remove your Mistform Ultimus until it’s too late

I just run alot of protection and recursion if I want to play with these decks. I feel like it's kind of mandatory. It sucks, because it takes slots of things that could accentuate the value but to me it's just the trade-off you got to go with if you want to play these guys.

@thomaspetrucka9173

4 ай бұрын

I came here to say this! You can do that pretty easily (except in mono-red 😅) and still do something.

There are synergies with Yurlok that aren't exactly manaburn but punish people for either tapping lands, leaving lands untapped, or deal damage for non-basic lands. Building around painful mana management works well for him.

@andrewb378

4 ай бұрын

Yeah that's how I built him. If you build him strictly as group hug then yeah, if Yurlok dies your deck does nothing. If you just build it as a jund burn deck it still functions without him, it's just not as fast.

@dariocampanella7992

4 ай бұрын

I just thought It would be cool to build around untapping green and red creatures and manasink. Basically you untap your commander many times as you can and you use mana to manasink.

@williamdrum9899

4 ай бұрын

Destructive Flow intensifies

@roberteldritch6285

4 ай бұрын

@@andrewb378how does he work as a burn deck without his ability? I miss mana burn so much!

@Shimatzu95

4 ай бұрын

​@@roberteldritch6285you just build a burn/punisher deck in his colors. Green gives you protection and cards like seedborm muse, while red is the primary burn color and black has draining and better removal to work alongside the rest.

I play Eriette, and it's true. You don't want to rush her out. But I play a combination of negative and positive aura's. I also play a number of recur auras from the graveyard spells. She's not necessary, but good when on the board. She is definitely a monolith, but then again, white aura's have a ton of protection. Make her indestructible and protection from all colours. Suddenly she isn't going anywhere.

@PitBossReplicant

4 ай бұрын

Hi, eriette brewer here and new to the game. Do you have suggestions for protection from all colors that won’t cost an arm and a leg?

@devinkerr5474

4 ай бұрын

I don't consider Meren a Monolith commander, but any game I've played with her has been the same. I want her out ASAP to get experience counters going, but I really can't be surprised if she doesn't live a rotation. I need to protect the heck out of her unless the other player's boards are simply bigger. I think fewer players need to consider rushing out their commander, even if they are a monolith

@ihave0hp

4 ай бұрын

As another Eriette player I agree and my deck is kinda built the same with a mix of auras haha. I've noticed Eriette isn't an immediate threat when put onto the field most of the time but she gets targeted when she either starts pinging for too much damage or if someone wants to take advantage of the positive buffs you've put on their creatures lol. But for the most part people will target Kor Spiritdancer or an All that glitters before they target Eriette herself

Great topic. In the decks I run with these types of commanders I end up taking up about seven slots with protection spells more than in a typical deck. Seems like a big investment just to keep your bit target commander running and not suffer from commander tax.

@scottricks1676

4 ай бұрын

I agree with this 💯. If my commander is the blood of the deck. Yea I’m running 10 or so way to protect it on multi fronts.

@frankman90210

4 ай бұрын

I just raw dog it. I like to play commanders that represent the majority of my game plan, but I also like to time them out so I have the big 1 or 2 turns before they inevitably die. I'll run some counters or a fog here and there, but I'm not puss-in-boots-ing unless I'm playing osgir and I can run a lightning greaves shop for laughs. Having a commander live for more than 1.5 rotation takes more slot than I'm willing to spend.

I just realized all my commanders are monolith lol. Arcades, imodane the pyrohammer, eriette of the charmed apple and ghyrson starn kelermoroh

@Snadon73

Ай бұрын

Yep for Eriette.... she definitely attracts a lot of hate, I've noticed. Once people properly understand how annoying, and crucial, she is...

@chamber8234

16 күн бұрын

My Talrand deck is in this boat. It and two other creatures are the only ones in the deck to make any tokens. Rest is just spells. A buddy had a way to tap down Talrand every turn when I was trying to do stuff. Totally took me down, nothing I could do lol. My Arcades is the same

My first deck was Omnath, Locus of Rage. When Omnath isn't out, the deck does very little. I eventually put some backups in the deck - mostly just X/X creatures where X is the number of lands I control. But also, the deck ramps so much, that I have paid 15 to cast the commander after a few removals.

@scottricks1676

4 ай бұрын

I just brewed omnath but as a hidden commander. Will of the wilds is the lead, spitting out 1/1 elementals for ‘nath to see die and ping! Could be a way of approaching the early game.

@peterkirk8510

4 ай бұрын

I found it relatively simple to make omnath into a deck that didn’t have that issue. Zendikar’s roil, avenger of zendikar, warstorm surge, valakut, titania, where ancients tread give options for alternate win conditions that play into what the deck already wants to do

Helpful stat from Salubrious Snail that I have been using recently when it comes to adding key pieces to a deck (like protection): the chance of having a particular card in your opening hand 53% of the time requires that you run 10 copies of said card (this is based on 99 card commander decks).

@johnandrewbellner

Ай бұрын

Really? Isn't it 7 or 8 copies?

Massacre Girl, Known Killer was an immediate add to my Toxrill deck, now they're best friends. Edit: Yes, I know slime counters aren't the same as -1/-1 counters.

@goddess0laura

4 ай бұрын

That doesn't inherently matter, it is the card draw that matters, which doesn't need counters

We have someone in our regular playgroup who built Drana and Linvala, and then despite us explaining why them shutting off all activated abilities makes them a target still gets upset when we remove them on sight or after just a few rotations. You build a stax deck, we're gonna remove the stax pieces!

@byBbibo

4 ай бұрын

That s the whole point of playing staxs : see them struggle to remove your pieces and be proud to have been able to last two rounds XD

@pluubooruu

4 ай бұрын

I have a friend that wants to make a Orzhov Vamp/Angel deck, and originally wanted DranLinvala as the commander but sees that as a potential problem for it. I think now he's considering Astarion as commander with a lifegain/life drain deck. I told him thats good, but very aristocrats style, a style he doesn't really take to. (I tried to get him a Ghen and Brenard proxy to get him to give it a go since he loves enchantment/artifact play but idk he doesn't see the value in sacrificial pawns)

With Eriette you put hexproof/indestructible/protection auras on her first before you go for your opponents. She’ll still die to board wipes though…but then so will your opponents’ creatures you enchanted.

@Byborne

4 ай бұрын

[[Kaya's Ghostform]] or [[Blessing of Leeches]] can somewhat help you in that regard.

@cigbhungus3359

4 ай бұрын

Totem armor could help with that

@Suppaichu

4 ай бұрын

I'd go with Kaya's ghostform, unholy indenture and minion's return type effects, they can protect eriette but at the same time they're pretty awesome to slap onto opponent's stuff, so that if a boardwipe occurs, even if end up losing eriette, you'll get their creatures. Enchanting an opponent's creatures with all that glitter seems very stupid, even with eriette. i'd prioritize auras that draw cards, impetus auras, dead man's chest, vision's of brutality is a maybe. But i'd want creatures in my own deck if i put good auras in it. Personally, i think i'd build it in a more controly style and have a few ways to protect eriette as well to try to keep her around. without her, the valuey auras don't benefit my opponents as much or are actually detrimental, minion's return works with the control part to steal them if eriette can't come down and curses would probably be the secondary theme, since they're also auras.

@williamdrum9899

4 ай бұрын

Also your deck contains auras you can cast from gy

I used to fall into this “trap” a lot when I first started playing and now i’m getting better at my decks being able to stand on their own without the commander. It’s a weirdly, satisfying(?) feeling to have your commander get removed and not really care.

@minced_man

4 ай бұрын

This is me with my N'gathrod deck, milling is the whole game plan already N'gathrod just makes it more spicy.

@vexhia6792

4 ай бұрын

A great way to do that is to pick a commander that will help you do something that you’re already doing without it anyways. With Rakdos, Lord of Riots, even when he’s not on the field, I still have a hand full of super impactful spells and creatures to play.

@energetek661

4 ай бұрын

Truth!

@PoYi-fi1zt

3 ай бұрын

It’s sad that it’s the best way to play commander using your commander as your center piece… but it is the wrong way to build your deck…

@mcnick646

3 ай бұрын

😮​@@minced_man

I've got like 10+ protection pieces in my Sen Triplets deck. It's worth it when your commander is usually kill-on-sight and grants you a ton of value if it survives a turn cycle.

@astuteanansi4935

4 ай бұрын

It might be weird to say, but I actually don't think Sen Triplets is a monolith commander at all, because it doesn't involve pretty much any setup. I imagine most of the time you'll be running this as a very basic control shell, I would personally even bring in some traditional control wincons like Approach of the Second Sun. The dream might be to win with your opponent's hand, but you're not dead in the water if your Triplets get removed. It is a lot harder to just slam in protection pieces if your commander also needs a ton of setup.

@JimboBango

4 ай бұрын

@@astuteanansi4935 good point. I define Triplets as a monolith commander because there's not really any other card in magic that allows you to cast your opponent's cards from their hand like they do. I guess it depends a lot on the build of the deck.

@bryceduyvewaardt8136

4 ай бұрын

Ooh I’d like to see the deck list! Next week I’ll play my Anti-Archenemy Sen Triplets deck and I always like seeing cool card inclusions

@DUxMORTEM

4 ай бұрын

Further more, you are in a color pie that can very easily protect Sen Triplets.

@bch9124

4 ай бұрын

TL;DR: all Commander decks should *always* have at least one alternative win condition.

As a Fynn player, the amount of protection I run might look a bit... silly. But completely necessary. Always count on needing to protect your monolith.

Man you been killin it lately, thanks for being out there

@edhdeckbuilding

4 ай бұрын

Any time!

@luxray4911

4 ай бұрын

WOOOOAHHH kbash? Good to see you here wtf love your vids

Hey there, just wanted to leave quick props for what you are doing on this channel, found it a few weeks ago and you are taking edh to such a creative level. Will follow up in the future. Thanks and greetings from germany!

Anzrag decks specifically take advantage of Green having a ton of hexproof/indestructible instants to both protect and combo with Anzrag.

@dhkgy12345

4 ай бұрын

Anzrag is def not a monolith in my opinion if you are not greedy. He also costs so little for the colors that I have had him removed 1-2 times and ive been totally fine. You just need him to stick one turn to get value out of him anyways. A gruul power matters skeleton with synergies that are still good with Gruul decks in gen will still be a powerful deck

I have a Yurlok deck, but it’s more of a group slug deck. It doesn’t require Yurlok to function. He’s just a thematic commander and a bonus when he’s in play.

@andrewb378

4 ай бұрын

I think singling out a commander and saying "if you play this commander your deck is probably really easy to deal with" is just not super helpful. There are ways to build a lot of modern commanders that make them "monoliths", but you can build those decks in other ways as well.

@jaredwright1655

4 ай бұрын

Yeah anyone can build a casual Thrasios merfolk tribal, but you still might die first cause you're opponents are scared of combo. Your opponents see something and expect you to build around it so they take the predictable steps to stop it.

@andrewb378

4 ай бұрын

@@jaredwright1655 here's the crazy part. You can just... say you're not playing a combo deck. I have a Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle deck that's Voltron rather than combo and even though it's a well-known combo commander, just stating that I don't have any infinite combos in my deck is enough to prevent people from treating it like a combo deck.

@sylvainlectard7377

4 ай бұрын

Totally agree. Yurlok makes for a good group slug commander.

@Larghz

3 ай бұрын

My Yurlok deck is more political group slug, I help everyone at first, then it gets a bit painful, then suddenly I've given one opponent a master of cruelty or a phage that's goaded so everyone looks at them as the problem lol

I disagree on the Charmed Apple because you can just be running curses and vows that work well without the commander

@dapperghastmeowregard

4 ай бұрын

Still need to finish my list, but I mostly went with stuff like Luminous Wake or Spirit Link that wouldn't be too detrimental to me if she died. Favorite tech is Floating Shield, can set it up to potentially protect Eriette, and even if it wiffs you can still get rid of it basically any time it becomes detrimental to you.

Corrosive Mentor is a mono black elemental rogue that gives black creatures wither. The back up for Massacre Girl Known Killer's wither effect.

@joelrandall2348

4 ай бұрын

I came to say this.

In lack of a Jund Enchantress commander, I built Yurlok as a Group Slug Enchantress. He doesn't have to be in play, but it's ramp in the Command Zone for the "fun" enchantments.

@ry7hym

4 ай бұрын

wow Jund enchantress, that is really interesting 🤔 if I were to build jund enchantress I would go with Xira Arien (the old one) since she has absolutely no predefined play style lol

@KitsuLeif

4 ай бұрын

@@ry7hymThat's an interesting option to consider as well, yeah. Maybe one day they'll print a good Jund Enchantress Commander, but I might consider swapping Yurlok with Xira until then, so I don't pull that much hate.

Great video! This is definitely an interesting topic. I really think it boils down to the perceived power level for each commander. As we all know some commanders are definitely more powerful than others. I used to run k'rrik in my play group but after the first couple games everyone else got tired of it and killed it immediately. This is a very interesting way to look at each commander for sure. Keep up the good work!

Very good video! My opponents will naturally counter things I want to do, which includes removing a threatening commander. I like the way you ask the question of whether the deck can function if my commander gets removed.

Dang, just about scoped out an entire Hapatra deck just from this video alone. Thought these cards looked familiar

Very interesting and well presented as usual. You didn't tell us about Monloith Commanders though, they sound fascinating.

The voltron strategy as a whole. Love my treebeard deck regardless though, I know what I'm getting into when playing him

"Pop off before you cast your monolith commander so that they waste removal on your 99. Save your mC for once their shields are down." Ah- Muldrotha 101. You know the play pattern well.

One thing that I find really funny is when people THINK your commander is so instrumental to the plan. Adun Oakenshield always gets removed, but the theme is recursion - he's just one of many tools to get back Channel/Evoke/Cycling nonsense. Henzie gets better when I have to recast him, and the rest of the deck is still threats. Shirei is my monolith, but with enough protection and other recursion options, that spooky boi does okay. I just have to be aware of it and plan for it... but he's the big enabler. Even when you have a commander with a build-around, you need a plan B. Rowan absolutely is a good example. If you have Death's Shadow or Shadow of Mortality, you're on the right track at least...

Glad you talked about this. I've been going on about this to players I come across who complain about their commander being interfered with. While it's still great to play commanders that unlock a unique strategy, the most reliable way to play, and honestly have fun, is often to pick a strategy that your commander ENHANCES, not enables.

16:40 Eriette CAN be. She definitely wants to be at least. But you can also just run her as an Auras Voltron Commander, completely ignoring her first ability. But if you pair it with Sphere of Safety then you at least have a backup for if she gets removed if you're using her first ability. There are also a decent amount of Auras that are inherently back ups for her by themselves in both black and white.

Playing these types of commanders successfully is a combination of timing when you drop the commander and having ways to protect it. There are many options when it comes to silence effects, equipment/enchantments, protection/redirect instants, and counterspells that can all help tremendously in decks like these. They won’t always keep your commander from getting killed, but will at least ensure you get enough value out of them that they were worth the casting cost.

Great discussion. I hope you can make this into a short series :)

Great video concept! This is very important for the format overall. Some people end up being way too salty because they built their decks way too much centered on their commander. Monolith type Commanders require extra protection, lots of reanimation or at the very least a ton of mana production. But no matter what, you need to have a plan B. A way to play without your commander. A different focus perhaps. Using Brenard, you could easily have Chulane in the 99 as a back up commander who works with the strategy either way.

Great topic! Id like to add to the Rowan discussion. Once You tap her, the ability is going to the stack, so doesnt matter if someone removes her because it's a activated ability not an static one, like Rakdos lord of riots for example, if You have an instant way to pay life You should pay after activating rowan, if rowan gets removed before You get to tap, You just don't play the life, all of this assuming You can make rowan Enter the field with Haste, otherwise i wouldnt Even attempt to cast her if You can't portect her, that's My 2 cents on this!!

As a boardwipe tribal avacyn player, enjoy the archenemy feel, it's such a fun and unique experience, everyone at the table knows if they cant remove it quickly they lose, embrace it, be a monster.

That was one of the best videos about EDH in your channel and every other EDH channel. Great topic. I have a Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire deck. it's not a Dragon deck. It is an Big (really big) creatures/permanents deck. And I've found an interesting way to "protect" him since he's 6 mana 6/6 flying and with a super monolith commander abilitie. I always let the other players choose what they want to remove from the other player. This always changes the atention of the table from my board (Vaevictis) to the other player who choose to remove their card. It's an psychological little game that I've found and it actually works really well. And my playgroup is not bad. We have a hig power pod and they are really good players. Of course I have some rules first like. If I'm playing against a B or W deck, I will always remove their swamps/plains to reduce their mana to cast a spot/global removal. Aftes this I always go for G players cause I have a lot of artifacts and especially a lot of Enchantments that give haste to my big creatures. That polictical aspect is another take on this topic and it's really interesting

My Eriette has been a remove-on-sight commander, but it hasn't mattered; the whole deck has such an insanely low mana curve that I have enough to recast her over and over. It's getting enchantment wiped that hurt. P. S. Also I like monolithic commanders. I think them being the keystone holding it all up is what makes edh so fun. I have one out of like 24 decks that doesn't care what happens to the commander lol

I have a Obeka deck and it is a lot a fun to Play. Yes the deck is running a lot of cards with a" at end of turn or at the beggining end phase" but with a lot of reading, i Found some interresting ways to cheat that situation without my commander in Play. And thats for me, this is the most challenging way to discover how to get the most of your strategy. Hell, in a sense every commander is based around its commander. I see it has an underwhelming commander. Great show as always, your one of my favorite channel and because of you, my deckbuilding skill and knowledge of cards are way better. Have a Nice Day.

I am new to paper Magic. I have been playing for years, and had my first paper experience at my local MKM pre-release a few weeks ago. I know how popular commander is as a format, so I've been wanting to build a deck for the format. I got very lucky, and, at my pre-release event I pulled the promo card I was hoping to get of the three - Tomik, Weilder of Law. Perfect as that was what I was hoping to build as my first commander. Being new to commander, I've no idea how to build a decent commander deck. This video was very informative and I'm glad it randomly popped up in my feed. I got some great deckbuilding advice about making sure my deck does stuff, even without my commander and I learned that Tomik doesn't really check the "monolith" boxes so I can be a bit more flexible in my card choices., as Tomik gets better (discounted) with Planeswalkers in play, and helps defend them a little, but a well-built version of the deck can function entirely on its own. You even brought up Eriette, which can be used as supplemental Planeswalker protection and a bit of drain, which I like the idea of. Thank you

Anecdotal but my most successful deck in Brawl is my Drana and Linvala lifegain deck. The commander's just kinda nice! Shutting down activated abilities is semi-niche but a guaranteed flyer + vigilance + a big butt (toughness) just works so well.

Great observation. This is a concept I've been aware of for a while now but I dig the label you've coined for it! I tend to prefer decks that use their commander to compliment the strategy, instead of those that completely revolve around the commander and rely heavily on it being in play to function, as the latter strategy is much easier to disrupt (as you point out in this video). If I do decide to build a Monolith commander, I make sure to focus on one of or both of the following concepts during deckbuilding: 1. an anti-disruption package- if you're the Rocco player in the viewer's comment at the start of the video, don't get mad about the disruption, DISRUPT the disruption! Use counter-magic, protection, indestructibility, hexproof/shroud, recursion, cloning.... whatever you need to do to keep your advantage as ever-present as possible. 2. building in a complimentary side strategy- even though a monolith commander by definition must be in play for the main strategy of the deck to function, you can still dedicate a few slots to a contingency strategy as well. I've got a Prossh deck that is primarily a Voltron strategy, which obviously requires Prossh to stay in play so that it can one-shot ppl ftw. But if I find myself in a game where my opponents are heavy on spot removal and I can't keep the big Dragon alive to reliably shove it through, well, that's why I sprinkled in a handful of aristocrats pieces and overrun effects too! If I don't have Prossh out to sac my token pile to, I can just mobilize the tokens themselves to be my source of lethal damage instead

Great topic. I received some great advice when I first started playing. Decks should have a good strategy without your commander, but your commander powers it up when it’s on the battlefield.

@infinitedaryl2267

4 ай бұрын

This came up with Rakdos LORs. After that advice I took out all the 9+ eldrazi I had and put in 5/6/7/8 and X casting cost drops instead that you can plausibly reach casting even without Rakdos. The deck does much better now and it doesn’t matter if Rakdos dies on turn 3/4. If he sticks he just gets them out in mass earlier.

One of my favorite commanders is Mairsil the Pretender which is like ....THE monolith commander imo xD The deck can do stuff without him but he enables everything and if he has been used a few times then he is the only way to use the exiled cards. I also tend to be the arch-enemy at my table xD It just makes putting in enough of the protection effects all the more needed. Great topic! Something to be aware of for sure when building a deck. Commanders like this require a different approach to build if you don't want to be constantly frustrated.

@cosmosveil9355

4 ай бұрын

Mairsil players unite! He was the first commander I thought of when I saw the title of the video, but he's not super popular so he tends to not get a lot of content made about him.

This is an excellent video. This wisdom has been knocking around in my head for a long time, but I tend to ignore it because the decks that are the most fun to build are Monolith Commanders. I like the term btw, and I hope it gets adopted by the community.

As someone who used to have an Eriette deck, it runs fine when she's NOT on board, but the issue I always run into is the game goes from a 4 way free for all to a 3v1 the second I show her as my commander. So The deck's been taken apart. It was a good concept, but it's not fun to play.

Finally a topic I’m looking for

Can't say Eriette of the Charmed Apple is truly monolith, because it depends upon your build.

i have a rowan deck i rule zero it as a monolith commander because once shes out unless i am very unlucky i am looking at a storm win out of no where. i like playing it but i'm not sure if it will stay as long as other decks

This is honestly a great topic. I see too many people play decks constantly that revolve solely around the commander’s ability. My first instinct from that is to always try to include some single-target “removal” like inprisoned in the moon or a transform aura.

Good video. thanks

I think Eriette CAN be a monolith commander, but there's so many aura curses that have the goad effect or "this creature can't attack you" effect as well as other things that benefit you that you can easily build redundancy into the deck to protect yourself, meaning you rely on Eriette less for the deck to function.

So I’m trying to figure out when he defines what a “monolith commander” is did I miss it at the beginning. All I remember hearing was “this a term I created a while ago”

You can tap rowan and pay all the life in response with ability on the stack, it is an insane card that must die every time. And only 15 of your slots are dedicated to big X spells or life loss because the rest is incedental and just rakdos storm

@shurtleff123ds

4 ай бұрын

Unfortunately, Rowan's ability is sorcery speed only. Same as Will, Scion of Peace

@WokedOx

4 ай бұрын

@shurtleff123ds having a haste anthem somehow in red? That alone makes it not matter because people cannot respond between her resolving and tapping

@astuteanansi4935

4 ай бұрын

@@WokedOx Having a haste anthem doesn't matter. If she hits the field and someone throws an instant at her, you cannot respond with a sorcery speed ability.

@ryanmanning2319

4 ай бұрын

@@astuteanansi4935 Haste does matter. When Rowan hits the field, her caster has priority first, which means you cannot target her with an instant before she gets to activate her ability. It feels similar to planeswalkers, who also have sorcery speed abilities. If one hits the battlefield with three loyalty, for example, you can't lightning bolt it before it uses a plus ability to add loyalty. If Rowan has haste, and her caster has paid life before casting her, short of removing the haste granter or stopping her from hitting the field, you cannot prevent her from activating her ability with removal.

@marimi46

4 ай бұрын

Exactly what ryanmanning said. The correct way to play a rowan deck is to set up all your life loss engines first, set up a mass haste source, then drain yourself a shitload, and then play Rowan. At that point your opponents are screwed because her ability will resolve regardless of any removal, and then she pays for her own commander tax so you can immediately repay her and double the discount

I play with a fairly experienced playgroup and I have a deck with Klauth, Unrivaled Ancient as the commander. My advice for commander players who’s commanders are absolute removal magnets is to build the deck with the expectation that your commander isn’t going to last forever. Make sure the deck still functions well without the commander, and is only accelerated by your commander’s presence

I personally think it doesnt matter. Theres plenty, and i mean plenty, of ways to protect your commander whether it's shroud/hexproof equipment or auras or even totem armor auras. If you have blue, that adds a few auras that give shroud or hexproof. Just have to add those and youre good to go

I play uril the miststalker and they’re really fun because they got built in deterrent with hexproof. Once you start stacking up totem armors, you’re gonna need a farewell or an Edict effect to remove them. Yes the deck is monolithic but you can have some back ups like kor spirit dancer or if you got the cash calix, guided by fate.

Without a deck list I am only able to talk theory on Rocco, Street Chef as a commander. That being said I did net deck and test it against 3 of my decks to see what it does well and where it falls short in Table Top Simulator. Rocco will typically die after the first turn cycle of play if it does not make any deals to draw aggression away from the commander. Due to it being 3 mana it comes out faster than most decks but not all of them, this means in a pod with 2 mana commanders or lower they can be the targets and Rocco could survive. However for every turn it sticks around you open the amount of options you can do and are generally limited to the impulse drawn card the turn after Rocco is played. This means after Rocco hits the field everyone knows exactly what you will be doing next turn if it hits anything that is not a land. In the case of a land they know Rocco gets bigger and you make a food and will likely play something that capitalizes on this fact like a creature to spread the counters out or something that cares about artifacts/food. Your opponents can opt out of Rocco. This makes Rocco significantly less threatening and is likely what will happen until you have enough value on the board that "well me playing a land from exile won't hurt me, he already has a 10/10 it being 11/11 doesn't mean much." The Rocco deck I played features: 18 cards that care about food/artifacts 5 cards that care about counters/power 30 cards that care about exile/outside your hand Rocco did win on turn 12 with the commander being removed 3 times twice was due to him exiling someone's removal spell and Rocco being the best choice on turns 4 and 8. The third instance was on the start of turn 7 on Rocco's turn being countered by Bar the Gate.

Interesting topic. I run a Zangief deck (or Marikaa for the Universes beyond haters) and I feel like I absolutely pummel monolith commander decks, while also being a monolith commander myself. My friends who built Muldrotha and the Ur-dragon definitely hate the targetting that happens, and losing their commander once or twice shuts them down really hard. The idea that commanders are unique and dont have a lot of theme support outside of themselves is interesting

This is exactly why I dismantled my John Irenicus deck. Over half the deck consisted horrific draw back awful creatures to donate that without him in play do NOTHING for you. I spent every game just PRAYING Irenicus wouldn't get removed before his ability could hand off a creature. Very stressful and ultimately hardly any pay off.

It's like a Muldrotha deck and one of the main reasons I stopped playing my Muldrotha deck. Such a hard-learned lesson. People aren't going to allow you to keep Muldrotha on the table, that's literal seppuku. Packing all the protection you need for Muldrotha also removes the point of playing Muldrotha. Not having consistent access to Muldrotha basically means a Muldrotha deck is nullified. Nowadays, I actually have a removal-heavy EDH deck with Grist and teach people these lessons the same hard way. :D

Yup great points! I used to run a lot of voltron/monolith style decks but after too many games falling apart after multiple cmdr removals, I find myself leaning more towards value engines these days. Aside from Sigarda voltron, she still slaps and is at least somewhat removal resistant on her own

For me when i was start playing commander i'm way gravitating on building monolithic commander because it's so easy to build upon this kind of commander of how there effect mostly focus on a linear strategy. But throughout the years i find new things on how to build commander with various synergy and combination that don't make the deck convoluted that its hard to understand or rigid like how linear some on monolithic commanders are. But time to time i find most this type of commander fun and comfortable to play if we test new commander or just being competitive

Not refuting that most people build Yurlok as a gift mana deck, but one way you could use it is a jund burn/pressure list. You run a lot of permanents that pressure life totals, and then your commanders ability can be activated during your turn to play out more of that stuff and also burn everyone for 3 at the same time.

I absolutely have a few monolith commander decks (love the name you gave this concept). I just go into a game with way more protection spells in my deck and yhe knowledge that I could get blown out. All part of the experience when you choose to build that way.

Big disagree on this one, all my commanders are monolith commanders because when I play commander, I wanna do the commanders thing and I want that to be the central synergy/strategy of the deck, what way I don’t end up with generic goodstuff decks. I want my decks to be wildly unique in how they play/win. To combat the monolith commander problem, I just run way more protection/recursion/interaction that most people, or my commander has built in protection.

Couple of thoughts Demo: 1. I have 10 decks and 1 of them (Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald) I built 100% monolith. I totally agree that it’s easy to shut down but… at the same time it’s fun to lean super hard into a strategy (for me). I hate playing the same cards in multiple decks and the harder I lean into a strat the easier it is to avoid those cards. Also, building in multiple ways to protect your commander/ramping to recast/trying to duplicate the ability as you mentioned are all things one might want to be considering more when you have a monolith commander. Weigh more heavily the protection spells in this scenario when possible. 2. As for the idea that people are going to see a commander and immediately target it, I try to choose my deck strategically. I play my Faldorn deck against the scarier decks. If someone else is a bigger problem, then me popping off and making a ton of wolves is less threatening. So deck selection maybe helps if you build a monolith commander. A follow up video to this could be ways to play a monolith commander and be more successful. Sandbag when possible/mulligan to prioritize protection or duplicate effect cards/ lean harder into the strat and build it faster to out run the other players maybe? I know my Faldorn deck moves fast and it does so because once she’s down the deck folds. I like trying to play this way personally. I would rather stick to one strat than run out a bunch of good stuff creatures. Unfortunately in Gruul there aren’t many options for exile payoff creatures that do what Faldorn does. Only one from Dr. Who that I’m aware of. I would be interested to have you look at the deck. Might have to jump in the discord and let you see. Thanks for the great topic!

It's a complicated issue because the commander is often the thing that draws one to wanting to build a deck. For example, new Judith was my prerelease card from Murders, and being my prerelease card & an interesting commander, I resolved to build her. My early drafts of the deck, she was the main spellslinger synergy in the deck. There were a lot of burn spells to take advantage of her ability to give them deathtouch & lifelink. I think that build of the deck is probably potentially very strong & that if someone chose to build her that way, they could probably have a lot of fun. I didn't want too big of a target on my back, so I decided to tone down the burn effects & focus more on her ability to make imps and run more other spellslinger cards. Now, the deck is more about token generation, with the intention to sacrifice them for card draw & damage. The tradeoff is that it's probably a lot less unique when compared to other Rakdos spellslinger commanders (although probably more unique when compared to other Judith, Carnage Connoisseur decks).

And you have that guy that their 6 commanders decks are like these and he still gets upset lmao. Really nice and interesting vid demo. I try to stay away from these commanders (had Obeka some time and learned it the hard way) and recently I turned my Rionya deck into a Delina deck. Only had to move some pieces and it has been wonderful. The randomness and explosivity of Delina is way more fun and less, I have to have lots of cheap instants to really make the deck work and everyone will just kill my creature I have been tempted so hard to build a Rowan group slug/life change deck so hard that maybe would be the only monolith deck I would play and even then I wouldn't relay so much on giant spells

My main deck (that I play 99.9% of the time) is Mishra, Eminent One - definitely a monolith commander. I've built the deck to be able to keep him out sustainably. Protection plays a huge part (although I've only just started running both the boots with the fur *and* the Reeboks with the straps; I was just running Lightning Greaves for a while), but I also run a buttload of ramp that also serves other functions in the deck so building insurance for multiple instances of casting Mishra. There are a couple of alternative wincons, too - primarily Aetherflux Reservoir. I don't mind Mishra being a target because I'm almost always able to get him to stick in one way or another.

What do u guys think is enough single and board protection in a deck now? I’m cool with removing single target removal.

Got the Morska precon. What I have found about it is that it plays like the T1000. Removal can hit it, but it's got enough resources to start reforming after a wipe.

For your Don Andres example, I opted to put him in the 99 of my "cast opponent spells" deck. Instead I use Vial Smasher + Esior. Draws way less hate and runs smoother.

10:57 Rowan doesn't need to be on the battlefield for the cost reduction. The ability checks for life lost at time of ability's resolution and then discounts your spells regardless of whether Rowan remains on the battlefield. If you have Anger in the GY, lose all your life first, cast Rowan, and activate the ability. If you don't have a way to gain haste but are able to start a turn with her, do your life losing stuff as separately as possible. If she gets targeted, simply tap her and continue to lose life at instant speed if possible.

Eriette with return to battlefield from graveyard auras are super helpful. Light-paws is my secondary commander to soak removals.

I have several commanders that could be considered monolith, if not built correctly. The closest right now being Imodane, the Pyrohammer. She quickly became the target of my pod which is both frustrating and flattering. The deck will do the burn thing with or without her but she certainly accelerates the win several fold when she's on the battlefield. I do run a decent protection / interaction package with her though. At least. as good as you can probably run in mono red, lol.

I'm honestly constantly confused about how Don Andres got to be so talked about and built and played as a commander, yet Evelyn the Covetous who does essentially the same thing in the same colors went so far under the radar. Especially because Don Andres slots perfectly into Evelyn's 99.

@Dragon_Fyre

4 ай бұрын

I’m confused how you think those two commanders are doing essentially the same thing.

@davidpeters1613

4 ай бұрын

It's not that they do the same thing, it's that Evelyn is so much better than Don Andres

@Dragon_Fyre

4 ай бұрын

Each commander has a weakness that revises how you would build your deck. I would expect either to frequently include the other in their 99. Evelyn steals cards but deck has to be built to get treasure tokens to cast those cards. It also tends to be a Vampire deck to activate her ability (unless you want to blink her). Don Andres creates all the treasure tokens you will need but deck has to be built to focus more on stealing opponents spells.

@astuteanansi4935

4 ай бұрын

@@Dragon_Fyre Incidentally, Evelyn is also not a monolith commander because even if she dies immediately, you still probably have a functional vampire deck. You even have somewhat of a backup for her in Captivating Vampire.

@malcomchase9777

4 ай бұрын

Evelyn steals the cards, Don Andres rewards you for stealing them. The fact you'd like both in play at the same time and that their effects don't really make up for the other means they are clearly not the same thing. One's the enabler, the other the payoff. Not to say one is better than the other, mind you, just that they don't really need the same deck at all.

I have to bring up my old Kathril voltron deck here. I loved that deck, it never won a game, everyone in my pod kept saying it was like the scariest deck they'd ever seen. Cause sure fairly reliably getting to a one-shot sized commander that's hard to remove and nigh on unblockable seems decent. But fairly, hard and nigh on still left a lot of wiggle room. eventually I was pumping so many staples into the deck to give it a backbone so that it wouldn't fold when people dealt with Kathril that it ended up being smarter to just sell the thing and buy a warhammer army...I do miss that deck though.

This is quite funny. My first commander was a reverse-monolith. You gotta full commit to the 'double or nothing' mindset with a mono-red Krark deck

I knew full well that Obeka would be monolithic, and that's why I added plenty of haste spells and permanents, as well as Hellkite Courser to bring her out of the command zone and give her haste. I also put other spells in that can end the turn just in case

Definitely agree with the concept, I do have an obeka deck, I run all the end the turn spells as well as the artifact and +/-6 stifles, while it’s not the greatest deck in the world these other affects do functionally similar things to obeka so I don’t feel like my game plan is overly reliant on her.

Even if Anzrag isn't on the battlefield you got pretty good options for another combat phase and to punish your opponents. Such as, a Commander i use with Anzrag on my deck, Maarika, Brutal Gladiator; Karlach, Fury of Avernus; Mogis, God of Slaughter (immediate removal); things that call out big creatures like Owlbear Cub. Anzrag is usually the least of their worries. Of course, i pull target creature fights target creature and it usually hurts alot.

This an interesting topic and really just comes down to being cognizant of your playstyle and what you enjoy in a game. I have built quite a few Monolith commanders e.g. Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief or Ghyrson Starn. Those decks plummet in efficiency without the commander in play, but I've learned to adjust how I play them in a way that accounts for the fact my opponents will try to remove them early and often. Some people clearly enjoy playing piles of generically good cards Steve, Eternal Witness etc. I get bored of those. Swords to Plowshares is obviously the best creature removal in the format but that doesn't make me want to play it. I'm ok with (on rare occasion) just not getting to impact the game much, because othertimes I can do very "silly" things like steal every creature in play with Charisma and those moments are more memorable to me

Rocco is a fun example of this. I've played basically nothing but Rocco since he released since Impulse Draw and casting stuff from exile is one of my favorite mechanics. On the surface, a food and a +1/+1 counter is what your opponents give you to draw a free extra card every turn. They make that choice, and a lot of people I play like the free extra cards but suddenly, a couple turns pass and you have 3-4 creatures with double digit stats because everyone wanted to keep getting free cards. It's a fun mind game to see how much people give you before they bite off a bit more than they can chew (pun intended)

i can agree with this, a lot of my decks are monolith decks, but my best deck overall is probably Watcher in the Water, the whole deck is blue shenanigans and instant speed draw so half the time if he gets removed i just go on and do blue things while i wait for everyone else to burn out their removal.

I remember being excited to build Mairsil and Obeka when they both came out. But I eventually learned how much the deck relied on them. It became a feel bad for everyone. Had to deconstruct them.

I have satorou umezawa deck And: 1 has a lot of protections. 2 it does not rely on the commander, the deck is about halving life total, is either with equipped unblockables or creatures that can become unblockable.

My main man Orvar is somewhat of a monolithic commander. He's a huge target, and a lot of the best spells in the deck like Whim of Volrath and Twiddle don't do much when he doesn't stick. He's only 4 mana, but I rarely play him without having an extra 1-2 mana to trigger his ability at least once or protect him. Since Orvar dropped in Kaldheim, Wizards has printed a lot of blue cast trigger payoffs which help the deck function much better without the commander on board. Vesuvan Duplimancy is basically a more narrow Orvar, that functions as backup for our game plan but also doubles as a combo should our commander stay on board. While other "enhancer" creatures like Archmage Emeritus, Displacer Kitten and Hullbreaker Horror provide additional payoffs for what the deck wants to be doing anyway. While the fastest builds of the deck undoubtedly lean heavily into the commanders strengths, I've had a lot of success by focusing on covering his weaknesses.

I built a Yurlok deck last year out of just random bulk beaters in my collection. I wanted to play Jund big stompy so having a commander that ramps from 4-6 or 5-7 depending on if I hit the land drop on turn 5 is pretty sweet, the mana burn is just some added damage over time. It is by no means a competative deck but you could remove Yurlok and the deck works just fine but with an awkward mana curve

I usually only go all in on building around a commander if it has some sort of built-in protection or costs 3 mana or less.

I'd be curious to see what your thoughts on Tetzin being a monolith commander. I feel that cheating double sided artifacts to transform is super helpful, but double sided artifacts are generally pretty powerful and diverse. I think if Tetzin kept being removed, I can still transform them the normal way. Plus, I run some of the Transformers in it too like Optimus and Ratchet

Building a great deck first that becomes an even better when the commander is out has been the most successful way to play in my experience. My budget Lier Rogues deck is probably the most egregious example in my collection; undoubtedly my highest win rate deck and 95% of each game, I’m usually throwing out a ton of cantrips, playing unblockables and not touching the commander at all, and when I do cast him it’s either because I’m about to win or it will give me the push I need to take the w next turn.

Ive been trying to build obeka for a while. I never had more than a core of cards because i dont want to mix end of combat and end of turn as you can only stop one. Im now going to mix it with a reanimator/sac strategy because theres a surprising amount of "return then exile at eot" and it protects obeka if i can slide her into the grave at instant speed then return her.

Related to Don Andres - My favorite deck of mine is my Yasova Dragonclaw theft deck, and it fits the bill. She isn't strictly necessary to the deck, as the rest of it still has plenty of theft and just general good cards that make it function even when she isn't around, but her being out has its own benefits that make it better - one extra Threaten every combat, but I also have stuff that makes her bigger, which means it's *very* easy to get commander damage kills with her. I think my only true Monolith commander deck is Arcades which...it's rough when he goes away enough times. I'm gonna have to revise that deck eventually with more protection and less jokes (because the deck is Arcades' Nuts, so it has a squirrel/ligma subtheme) to make it actually playable.

I had a Deck around Atla Palani, Nest Tender that only had big dinosaurs and eggs in the deck, and ran into this exact issue, so I ended up dismantling it and built a different Naya deck instead.

So, a couple things come to mind on this. First - I think a big part of this entire viewpoint is that people are often way too eager to get their commander into play to start getting the value (as you mentioned). 9 times out or 10, this is the wrong choice, because it simply puts a target on your commander. Most commanders that fall into this category require a critical mass of support to really go off. If this is the case, you should not be casting it before you have the pieces to take control even if that means you are just letting mana go unspent. Second - I think many players are WAY too narrow with the protection effects they play. (I've been focusing on blue lately so this will sound blue) - Bounce is removal but also protection. Blink is a value engine that is also protection. The same goes for graveyard recursion. Then there are the standard protection card you see all over. Boots and swords. Teferi. In blue, counters are protection as well. In short there should never be a time with one of these commanders that you don't have 1 or 2 protection effects in hand once they are played. There are also numerous spells that let you replay things you already cast, letting you go grab your protection if needed and something else if not needed. These sorts of cards should be played more in 'monolith' decks.

Do you think a monolith commander is ok if it has self protection? For example, hexproof narset, ward 2 miirym, ward 2 tivit, pay 9 life 9 fingers.

Rocco street chef is a great commander, it's a group hug effect that turns nasty quick

Need to get my hands on a Rukarumel, Biologist for my multi-tribal slivers Monolithic? A little. Menacing? Maybe. Weird? Absolutely! We're playing Atogatog, Haakon, and Aluren!

If you really want to play a ‘monolith’ commander-dependent deck, pack extra boardwipes instead of extra protection. You want to take out my commander and set me back 3 rounds? Fine, but now the whole table is going back to the Stone Age. It’ll buy you time to ramp and pay the tax or find protection.

@GamerTT00

4 ай бұрын

Thiss