"guild wars does everything better, it just doesn't do it enough" the truth has been spoken right there!

@TheCooderix

2 жыл бұрын

What was this comment in regards to? Because I think of a lot of reasons why this is just.. wrong. But if it's solely story-related, then maybe it's true. I don't engage with it.

@Unapologeticweeb

2 жыл бұрын

Hasn't wp basically said this in his FFXIV comparison video? And yes I agree the problem especially with the story is how fast gw2 rushes trough plotlines and stories

@seriousmaran9414

2 жыл бұрын

I agree, there are plenty of instances where character story arcs are suddenly cut far too short. Characters like Apatia, you just meet her and she's dead. You don't get to know anyone that much. This affects so much if the story negatively.

@next_lvl_

2 жыл бұрын

The ultimate comparison of the two games, perfected down to a single sentence.

@PressA2Die

2 жыл бұрын

From my perspective it's always adding new things with tons of potential, only to be layered over with a newer thing that also has potential, only for that to be left as is and be made obsolete by.... you get the drift.

Big Nose Ted was the true villain of the game.

@_elifilen

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah XD

One thing about Logan - people just straight up forget or dont know that its not just Logan who loves Jenna, it goes both ways. If you talk to her in the Personal lvl 30 story and the cadecus manor story you can quite easly see that. Its not Jennah or Logan who are in the way of their relationship, its the outside circumstances. Speaking of Captain Thackeray... it doesn't bother you that he's going to Lion's Arch? I'm worried, I'll admit. Caithe has never been trustworthy in the best of times, and lately... please, tell me you'll watch over him? You know that you could stop him, right? One word from you, and he'd stay. No, Advocate. I have enough servants-I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions. I made such a mistake once before. I won't make it again. Captain Thackeray is very worried about you, Your Majesty. Logan? He mustn't worry...please, tell him I'll be fine. If he is distracted, and gets hurt, I don't know what I would do. If I may be so bold, ma'am, the two of you seem to care about one another very much. He is like an angel sent from Dwayna to be at my side. If things were different, or if Kryta were at peace. then perhaps...

Alternate Universe Theory. If Logan stayed. Glint and Snaff survived, but Ebonhawke fell to the Branded and Queen Jennah dies. Glint is able to absorb most of Kralkatorrik's magic and then falls into a deep slumber, leaving Destiny's Edge the task to guard and bond with Vlast. With Queen Jennah death, the Ministry votes in Caudecus as the new King. Cuadecus declares war against the Iron Leagon to retake Ascalon. Which unites the Charr under one banner. This is where the alternate GW2 game starts. The player is either Human or Charr navigating the war when halfway through the story Zhaitan reveals themself by rasing all those who have died in the war.

@goestah

2 жыл бұрын

words cannot describe how much I would like that story over what we got in 2012

@Matoro342

2 жыл бұрын

Could be a cool mission in the mists

@LaughingBat

2 жыл бұрын

I need to play an Asura. Other than that I would love to see that made into an actual game, or alternate story in gw2.

@ItsGazareth

2 жыл бұрын

Could still happen, look at what they did with Avengers: Endgame. Wish anet would be more ballsy with their stories like that.

@wafflingmean4477

2 жыл бұрын

That is absolutely brilliant. For me the human-charr conflict will always be part of this franchise's core, because of Guild Wars 1. But also I generally find these storylines about the mortals and their inner conflicts to be more interesting than "save the world" stories. Sometimes though, those two sorts of stories are woven together perfectly and both enhance each other. It's why the beginning of the Icebrood Saga was so good, dealing with the politics of the Charr with Jormag being an incredibly powerful wildcard. What you just proposed sounds amazing to me for the same reasons.

I love Tybalt Leftpaw, i like how funny he was, but...the things that strike me most for his character, is that the "funny" part of him was his only way to runmaway from how he feels about his failures and fears, telling us way he is called "Leftpaw", so when he died, his dialogue is really deep about for the FIRST time...not running and sacrificing himself for what he belived.

@seriousmaran9414

2 жыл бұрын

Tybalt used humour to mitigate the pain of his past. He is actually the nicest of the three, even if he is the least capable.

@kirbymaster42

2 жыл бұрын

One thing I loved about Tybalt was that he avoided the trap of being a funny incompetent character. Sure, he's obsessed with apples. But the codewords we use in the field as a result, they're good. The disguises work. Over and over, Tybalt was competent while being funny. That works a lot better.

Went Vigil for my first and main character, a norn warrior, and Forgal is still, to me, one of my most-liked characters. Sure, some of that is nostalgia and him being "my first", but he was just such a subtle and subdued character. Of the 3, he also felt the most like a mentor; someone we had something to prove to. From the perspective of my character, I appreciate that. The moment he dies on the island I still remember being quite solemn, for me.

i always hear about Tybalt from the personal story, but i found the stuff with Apatia (when you select make another suffer) a much more tragic moment in the game.... you leave her behind to the krait, she gets tortured, corrupted, kept in a cage, and then you put her down.

@Sunari

2 жыл бұрын

Her and the guy you unintentionally let die are rough ones I feel like - especially since his wife still hates my main dude whenever I come across her (a neat touch though, and always interesting to see the difference on another character).

@pixieskitty

2 жыл бұрын

For me was Tonn's widow in HoT, the anguish, the guilt ; w ; I am so sorry...

*WP*: "Would you really want a naked Faren running around in Bjora Marches while whispers incite you to become a cannibal?" *Me*: If i ever become a cannibal, there's probably worse things to have around than a naked Faren :V

I think for Ryland you are forgetting that his whole warband was killed by us. Combine that with him completely losing trust in his parents, I dunno if its fair to say Ryland pulled a complete 180 on us. Now the connection between "all my friends being dead" and "all trust in others is lost" equaling "betray bangar and become a dragon champion"....well that's a bit murky....but I can see why he would make a big change in decision making.

@dieselface1

2 жыл бұрын

And we see him start questioning Bangar in the second Steel and Fire mission

@gewreid5946

2 жыл бұрын

I wanted to say this as well. Bangar doesn't really have development as a character but that doesn't mean there isn't an inciting incident (with build up to it) coinciding with his "sudden switch".

You know why Braham survived? Because he's the only Norn in the story with any real relationship to the Commander. Think about it, the next biggest Still Living Norn with any screen time is Jhavi and she's just not that big a role so far. His plot armor is species representation. What we really need is multiple compelling Norn characters for us to identify with for Braham to no longer be necessary.

@violetbliss4399

2 жыл бұрын

Sadly this is the truth :(

I think people typically hate getting turned into story characters like Caithe because they don't get access to their own skills, though they did rectify that problem nowadays with things like Ryland in IBS where you can swap between his flamesaw kit and your regular weapon skills

@roye7304

2 жыл бұрын

It's tough because it's a fun concept but it kinda breaks the pace of the story when you have to sit there and read what your whole kit does

@komurmaldeb

2 жыл бұрын

@@roye7304 coincidentally I believe this is exactly why FFXIV does what it does with giving you only a very basic kit. Like WP said it's only 3 or 4 skills, but the battles don't start until you press one and it's very fast to mouse over them all to see what each does. It's unfortunate that there's no good way to manage it mechanically, unless a game wants to commit and throw you into encounters as that character multiple times so that you can get used to their kit.

@Unapologeticweeb

2 жыл бұрын

My problem with caith has more to do with player agency specifically when it came to the centaurs its infuriating to play caith especially in hindsight when caith should have questioned what's going on here not imidiatly joined faulin and slaughtered a bunch of centaur what annoys me even more about that is that nobody even mentioned the well pretty much genocide that caith committed against them

In terms of the player character as their own character, I've always had a particular fondness for the Asura PC. The Personal story bit where there is an alternate future where you rule the world was so silly and charming and provides a unique sort of texture to their path forwad as the commander

@TheAminoamigo

2 жыл бұрын

imo the commander's male asura voice actor has always been the best one. It always feels like the commander's lines are writtten specifically for him

I think it’s a shame that they didn’t bring back the three order mentors as undead bosses in Arah. They would have made for some impactful boss fights. They would also have made for a good parallel to the first game and Rurik’s death and subsequent undeath. Also, one simple thing ANet could do to add more of a feeling of camaraderie among the commander and our allies would be to utilize the mail system to give us periodic updates from the characters about what they’re up to, etc.

@RecklessFables

2 жыл бұрын

OH GOD NO!

The "flash sideways" idea you mentioned is exactly what the """Living World""" should be. Like it's in the name of it. I almost wish ANet had stuck to expansions for ongoing story and then using the Living World to flesh out the world that should feel alive, as if it reacts to the big changes we face in the story. It would be amazing to keep in touch with all the characters from the story outside of the direct threat in front of our noses. There are too many characters that just create an empty void on reflection because they aren't around any more, and it's created this weird version of Tyria where we just point the commander towards the next big threat and just fight our way in a straight line towards it, before refocussing on the next threat. Season 1 Living World was good for this because we'd just killed Zhaitan and then we had a beach episode with the Consortium. We had trouble in the mountains but it felt like a more local threat. We had trouble in Kessex Peaks. It finally felt like the Commander was just taking time to be a more localised hero with time for the people after waging an all out war on an Elder Dragon. However, it seems as though ever since they shoehorned all of those smaller stories together under the banner of "Scarlet did everything" we've just been pointed directly at cataclysm after cataclysm. Mordremoth, the Bloodstone, Lazarus, Primordus, Balthazar, Joko Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Primordus again. The closest we've had to the Commander taking a break was the All-Legion Rally at Grothmar. It would be really nice to actually have content added to the game where the Commander could catch up with old contacts and friends on a more relaxed level. Small missions that give lots of background lore, fighting smaller threats, etc.

@HawkEyeA53B

2 жыл бұрын

That's one thing I really liked about the conceptual role of Visions of the Past that was cut short and thus underutilized. It was a mode of storytelling designed to explore events outside of the Commander's immediate purview that could have been used for side stories and characters to better enrich the world.

@JamersR

2 жыл бұрын

@@HawkEyeA53B Another feature introduced and dropped immediately. Just write "Visions of the Past" up on the white board with dungeons, raids, fractals, sagas etc.

The biggest problem of Scarlet was that she did too much in a short amount of time, with too many factions. It was all supposed to be her doing and not some other magic. She was the super smart, super competent silver tounge, that was able to do everything and throw everyone under the bus, while being shits and giggles. If they would have split some of her archivments with one or two other characters she worked with, then it would have been fine, but in the end it was all her and that was just way too much. Portals to everywhere, impenetrable shields, a lot of new and destructive weaponry (even if she not completly build herself, she understood and combined them for her goal), uniting enemies under a common goal, instigating several coups, etc. Her own story is great. Her actions were too much and broken. I have a feeling we see a retread of her with EoD, as we see a technical powerful person, working with a voice again.

I love Sieran as a character, she was lots of fun. She's not as funny as Tybalt, but she had a funny bouncy personality that I really enjoyed.

I wanted to see Laranthir more but having Jhavi taking his place in the saga made a lot more sense. Though it was quite good they managed to draw a connection between Jhavi / Whispers.... and the Laranthir / Mordremoth whispers

One thing that particularly irks me with Braham surviving Dragonstorm is that, objectively, he won. He's the best Norn. The ultimate Norn. His legend will never be outdone, it tops everything else any Norn has ever done, or will do. He killed two Elder Dragons at the same time. Sure, we helped, and other people helped, but he was the one driving that. And now there's only one Elder Dragon left, no one is ever going to match that feat (yeahyeah, Aurene could have babies that turn insane and need to be killed in GW3 or something, whatever, who cares). Why is he still alive? There's nothing left for him to do. He won, he got the best ending, he's achieved true immortality, he's outdone his mother a thousand times over, he has nothing left to show. But for some reason he's still there, chilling. There's rumours that the reason Mass Effect 3 had such a bad ending was because fans guessed the ending, and the studio wanted something surprising so they scrapped it and changed it way too late. There's rumours the same happened with Game of Thrones. I really hope Anet has a plan for Braham and didn't fall for the "unpredictability is güd" nonsense that seems to infect writers nowadays. A story's ending being well foreshadowed and making sense with what came before is good, actually.

Logan I think is a very important breath of fresh air within the context of the rest of the games cast. I didn't see the original tier list, but I'd have him rated at the top for sure. I am a simple man who likes a fantasy world of castles, swords and magic. Logan is one of the few characters who has his responsibilities, takes them seriously, helps when he can and is an over all nice guy. I understand stories need to have some spice to them but he sort of represents a simpler vision for the game I wish they'd have gone for. I don't mean this in any insulting way, but I entirely stopped following the story after the commander resurrected himself in Path of Fire.

It's also possible that if Logan didn't leave that Destiny's Edge still would have failed. I don't think that many fans (or even characters like Zojja or Rytlock) would have been able to handle that idea. Logan was a convenient scapegoat for fans.

Tybalt and Sieran are 2 characters that I love and can genuinely get angry for them. when I reach the last HoT story, I was very chill until Mordy summon a clone of them. Mordy never expecedt my rage-filled blade would slash him down so fast. Do NEVER touch my mentors Mordy.

On Braham living, I am fine with that as Ryland also survived, I just think both of them should have still looked like they were infused with dragon magic but duller. Think Crystal Bloom Caith when Aurene "dies", Braham should at least be scared due to his actions.

One of the things that annoys me about the commander is that when I started playing GW2 right after GW1, I was also a big fan of mass effect and I thought it was going to be like something a paragon/renegade way in gw2 because in the first steps of your personal story and when you are starting the game, you need to chose not only your race but also your origins, where do you come from, your order, and even many decisions where you have to chose between charm, dignity and ferocity and the different personalities. So I had hopes that we were going to build our own way of confronting things, even if the story is the same, some changes in the dialogues or how we behave towards things and how people see us. But in the end, nothing of this matters at all after your first 10 hours of gameplay and prob most of us have a few thousands already lol.

RE: Brahm, I liked how he and Rox became besties in S4. I wish that had saved him as a character. He was essentially abandoned by Eir and grew up on his own, never connecting to anyone until Taimi, The COmmander, and Rox. Rox is the only one that had time for him and it was already late in his life.

(This is a comment in response to the previous video but I watched that late and I really love these sorts of discussions so I dunno maybe someone will have a fun read) I think the one huge mistake they made with Bangar is him no longer being corrupted. The Frost Legion were an incredibly interesting faction. The intent behind them for Bangar seemed to be that they would become what Flame should have been. The Flame Legion bowed before what they perceived to be greater powers. The Frost Legion wanted to find greater powers and force them to become weapons of the Charr, starting with Jormag. But then Ryland seized power and basically turned them into a new Flame Legion (in terms of philosophy). If Bangar retained some icebrood powers, or perhaps when Jormag died he picked up some excess magic and could jump into the mists like Ryland, I think that would have been amazing. And the Charr respect strength. If Bangar re-entered the field with the Frost Legion behind him, and with Smodur dead, he'd probably become an extremely likely candidate for Khan-Ur once more. Especially if he shattered the peace with the humans, perhaps by attacking Ebonhawke. Since the Frost Legion can portal behind the walls, all they'd need to do is break the Asura gate to cut off Krytan reinforcements and they would annihilate the city. To be honest I don't think Arenanet has any intention to use Bangar now that the Frost Legion are gone, along with Ryland and Jormag. They'll just lock him in a cell and we won't see the character for up to 6 years, or maybe never again in the franchise. It tracks with how they've treated other amazing villains like Joko and the real Lazarus. The characters still have so much more to give and Arenanet just moves on.

I, for one STILL have Scarlet's Diary in my bank (even though it is overcrowded, because I LOVE her voice acting so much in that so much. It goes from being afraid to being corrupted in a few lines and it summarizes her entire story. That said, her presentation in LW s1 was just all over the place and she (and especially the player character) made some very weird decisions. Like fighting the marionette, what was that all about? She wanted us to fight it, it was just locked to one random place, and we knew she wanted us to fight it. Then why the hell did we do it?

Bangar said it was us killing Ryland's warband, particularly Cinder, that pushed him over the edge. For several reasons I don't think Anet executed that properly, although the idea is amazing. For Ryland to be on the road to a full redemption ark, only to backtrack and become even more destructive than Bangar over something we the player are partially responsible for (we slaughtered nearly his whole warband in Drizzlewood) was an awesome idea. But Ryland never confronted the Commander for killing his warband. And while he did confront Smodur when he killed Cinder, and while the sheer look of rage on Ryland's face in that scene is fucking phenomenal, it was undercut so much by Smodur's character assassination. Causing the audience to face palm when they should have been on the edge of their seat. That's a whole topic on its own, but Smodur killing Cinder was depicted as Smodur being a bigot and a moron sabotaging peace and forcing himself into a war he could not win. I think it would have been better for them to depict it as a calculated risk by Smodur. Sabotage the peace, prolong the war and wipe out both Ryland and Bangar with Iron Legion reinforcements that would have been marching from the south (keep in mind almost all major threats to the Iron Legion in Ascalon have been significantly diminished or completely defeated by this point). And before they arrived, Blood Legion's civil war would have made it too weak to stop Iron. And it clashed with the idea of Jormag saying Ryland has always longed for power, and Bangar saying he should have spotted Ryland planning a betrayal. In my opinion I think it would have worked far better if they portrayed it as Ryland just completely snapping, allying with Jormag just so he can get revenge for his warband and Cinder, who it's implied he loved. Then he would grow to believe in Jormag's purpose along the way

I disagree about Braham in IBS. While yes he didn't full have our back, he was working with us while having this pull on him. I think in fact there was a bit more of a role reversal, where he was telling us and Taimi not to do the stupid thing (ally with Jormag). I was really worried about him when he became a Champion and was very relieved that he survived.

(This is a comment in response to the previous video but I watched that late and I really love these sorts of discussions so I dunno maybe someone will have a fun read) I feel like if Aurene had been more like Vlast it would have been much more interesting. Or perhaps if they reversed the roles for a while, not killing Vlast off, and having him become the Elder Dragon instead while Aurene would still operate on the front lines of the story. When you listen to those memory crystals, you see that while Vlast was not corrupted, he was far from the lovey dovey dragons Aurene and even Glint to an extent were. Vlast was almost a sociopath since his mind and power was so vastly different and alien to everyone he had ever known besides his mother, who died while he wasn't there to help her in battle. There's even a subtle implication in one of his lines that he might have preferred to sit out on the Elder Dragon conflict, letting them slaughter the mortal races since if Vlast steered clear, he'd probably survive until they went back to sleep. He also leaned more into the savage side of being a dragon, advising Aurene to snap at her Exalted guardians, reminding them who was more powerful. He might have had a similar relationship with us. And on top of that, he's overwhelmed to have inherited Glint's legacy, when all he wanted was to fly free over the skies of Tyria. But he's also consumed by rage and hellbent on revenge against Kralkatorick. As an Elder Dragon we'd be worried he's a ticking time bomb. If he had become the Elder Dragon, it would have been much more plausible that our Elder Dragon ally did not actively help us. Aurene's excuse was basically just "blah blah balance", but there would have been so much more tension with Vlast. He's not actively attacking us, but he doesn't care that much about helping, and is very capable of killing us if we piss him off (perhaps by very loudly and angrily demanding he becomes our ally. I imagine Braham and Rytlock might have run into that). It also would have been tragic but intriguing to pit Aurene against Vlast for that reason. It also might have been interesting for Jormag to advise Aurene to turn on him, as she would use that power more benevolently than Vlast. I kind of got derailed into a Vlast fangasm. I love Aurene, but sometimes she's a little too cliche for me.

It seems the 'flash sideways' thing was touched on a bit in the way of the 'Forging Steel', and Darkrime Delves. It really helped develop Ryland and Banger, while not interacting with the Commander. I'd like to see more of that.

Lord Faren as a shadow/puppeteer character would be interesting. Similar to fan theory for Jar'Jar Binks as Sith lord. May be he introduced Caudecus to White Mantle. Allegedly, was financial backer for Scarlet...

I sympathize with the Order heroes, but Sieran, I hope she finds love in the Mists

I think the biggest problem with Scarlet in season one, and the reason people hated her, was not only her character (which of course was a bit over the top), but that nobody knew what the point of that strange story arc and that character was, what it should lead to, and what it had to do with Elder Dragons. In hindsight it all made more sense, so people did not hate on Scarlet that much anymore.

Speaking of side stories (because I do think they flesh out the world significantly; like Caithe's and Ryland's), which side stories do you think are worth prioritizing for players; assuming the studio did go that route for post-EoD content? Zojja's seems like an easy choice; but then you realize, since HoT, we've not heard she's been doing anything. So what is there to see? Personally, I think Mai Trin and Marjory have a lot of stories to tell, that would round out their characters (Marjory especially). And I would not dismiss the idea of being Braham during his failed crusade north.

For me, the most impactful mentors were Tybalt and Sieran. Tybalt was amazing because he is the antithesis of what one would expect as a charr. He's unsure of himself, clearly suffers from survivors guilt (if not the guilt of knowing he is personally responsible for the deaths of his warband - this is left intentionally unclear) his arc like all the others is much too short but there is a clear growth from this "shaky engineer" to finding his confidence, finding his purpose, and his refusal to let anyone else die as a result of his action or inaction. The sudden re-ignition of his charr spirit definitely hit home for me and I honestly welled up when he died. Sieran.. Sieran was just tragic. Sieran's death was the first I experienced and I wanted to scream at the screen. It wasn't a bold hurrah, it wasn't an invigorating rallying sacrifice. It was just.. tragic. I didn't want to keep playing. I felt melancholy and immediately after that mission, I took a break from the game for about a week. I felt cheated that she died and we had no power to do anything about it, and her death felt like the death of a child in a way. This innocent, sweet and curious soul who is filled with such joy and desire to help and see your character grow only to watch her life snuffed away like it's nothing in a game like GW2. It felt out of place and hurtful. Guild Wars 2 is not a game designed around stories like these and does not handle them well, so to have such an impactful sacrifice, only to then disregard it like it didn't matter not just in the eyes of the villains but seemingly in the eyes of the storytellers, was just sad.

30:48 "Dragon's Watch is just a group of people who fuck off..." I don't know why that had me rolling. Something about the unexpected phrasing was just too funny to my middle school brain.

When you talked about an alternate timeline i realized that ican't remember GW2 doing any time-travel or alternate reality stuff since Asura the lvl 20 personal story.

WP, what do you think about an End if Dragons prologue with the Dominion of Winds as a setting? Maybe a little open world map with a proper introduction to the Cantha story, some tengu lore and a couple of missions/tasks to do. Could that be even possible?

For Braham, I really wish he had neither lived nor died but just went missing for Anet to pocket him away for later once they figure out what to do with him. Heading into End of Dragons and Cantha, I am so curious how he will be utilized, if at all. For my own "alternate universe", Braham goes missing with Jormag, we go to Cantha and continue that story and following living world. When we return to mainland Tyria, whatever that looks like, and we hear that Jormag is still amassing forces and terrorizing the Norn as they try to reclaim their territories with the Kodan. As we FINALLY get the Norn story arc and find some way about Braham's prophecy has some loophole that causes him to be possessed by Jormag and return as The Nornbear, much like the original Svanir years ago, and we get another Blood Washes Blood situation callback but also the community gets to kill Braham. (Too Trahearne-y?) Whatever it is, I just want the Norn expansion and a resolution/celebration to the ACTUAL/CONFIRMED defeat of Jormag.

Lord Faren - he’s got a possible plot hook - because it’s made clear in the human personal story (level 30 bit) there’s a heir to Queen Jennah. In living story 3 there’s a caravan that you can escort carrying an enchanted locket they are moving around which if opened will show the heir to the Krytan throne. Caudicus is fixated on Logan and the suspicion is that it’s him. But if you play human noble you are asked to protect Faren from the get go… it feels as though it’s being seeded to be one of the two… and Faren was promoted (for want of the right word) to Lord Beetleton. It’s one way to keep an eye on him

The Ogden's Hammer dude from the old Lion's Arch should have been a story character.

@Kabansky27

2 жыл бұрын

The video would have to be at least half an hour longer. What savings!

You know that thing you mentioned about doing a thing where you play as Zojja...maybe that's the kind of stuff that replaces living world between regular expansion releases? You do some current events, but you also sprinkle in some episodes where you play as various characters, like Zojja, or Laranthir and go on adventures or small side stories with them.

Sieran could have been "beautifully executed"? That's dark WP...

14:00 basically seeds of truth, I LOVED THAT!

Hey WP, So your comment about Scarlet really spoke to me. I was around S1 and I was one of the hyper critical people against Scarlet but really my opinion has changed since. I think one of the biggest problems with Scarlet back in Season 1 is that she didn't get a TON of screen time early on. Sure we knew she was behind the Molten Alliance, the Toxic Alliance, and the Aetherblade but she only popped in 10 episodes in and then only showed up in 6 of the episodes (some in voice only). When she WAS on screen man did I love her voice acting and learning more about her but most of the time we were just being TOLD "Scarlet is doing this, time to fight". I think this is why in season 2 when we get to her lab and meet her as Ceara and we learned more about her it was kind of a full circle moment! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

The LoganPoint AU is probably one of the most exciting ideas i’ve heard in a while. As someone who only knows about Destiny’s Edge through GW2, I don’t actually know what would immediately change about that timeline. Glint and Snaff survive probably, but what about Jenna? did Logan leaving actually change anything for Jenna? Where would a player character fit in this brand new world? perhaps scouted out by different Destiny’s Edge members as they take time to recover in their home cities? All that is assuming nobody else of DE dies, which is still a big possibility they are fighting Kralky after all. Would love to watch your take on this!

13:56 ...Zojja wakes up from a coma 7 years after being rescued from that mordremoth pod (cause Logan was obviously the canon choice). You play a discombobulated newly awoken asura who's having to accept and hear that not only is the dragon that killed her mentor dead, but the great ancient enemy of her people, primordus, as well. Oh, and a human god. And jormag. And the actual Lazarus the Dire. And the scourge of elona. And we now have a pet grandma dragon that ISN'T EVIL (glint pinky promised us). Also the charr had a civil war. What's that? No no, we all did quite fine without you and there wasn't any major impact from losing your input and expertise. Actually you were replaced by your old apprentice and we barely noticed you were gone. Jokes aside it could honestly be interesting having a character who comes from an older time and perspective. Someone who hasn't been with us from the start until present when it comes to all of these great feats of saving the world. Last time we had Zojja along we were still in 'kill all elder dragons ASAP' mode, and presumably she'd still have that mindset unless she'd done a lot of things off-screen and hadn't been in care/coma for all those years. There might be some fun dynamic there to explore with Taimi as well, the classic 'mentor that comes back and finds the pupil knows more about the whole thing than her' kind of deal. A member of the old guard that has to come back and brave an entirely new (more complicated) world.

@devinm9245

2 жыл бұрын

Koss Forever!

I think I'd agree that no characters in the core story are incredibly detailed or nuanced, however they have traits that the community really find endearing or relatable which is why so many people love the Order Mentors. Tybs was my first mentor but actually my favourite quote from the game that has stuck with me over the years is from Sieran, when she says "There was so much left that I wanted to see...". The final comments from all the order teachers are really beautiful and tie perfectly with Almorra on "Some must fight, so that all may be free."

"What If"... Marvel has done it with the watcher. Might it be nice if Aurene gets a new level for her powers of prophecy where she can see multiple paths like the Watcher, and she can share those visions via the Scrying Pool in EoN for little playable tidbits? That would be a great way to explore a world where Logan never abandoned DE for the Queen amongst other possibilities. Tybalt / Sieran / Forgal didn't die? The elder dragons roused in a different order? There are a lot of fun possibilities, though if they ever explored this route, I'm sure it would be well after EoD's release when the studio isn't quite so busy.

They should bring Zojja back as a mute character. It would make sense because of the traumas she lived during the events of HoT, having a character that communicates differently with such a traumatic story would be pretty interesting and original.

@Kabansky27

2 жыл бұрын

The first thing she'd do is program Mr. Sparkles to insult you instead.

@Ojyh

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kabansky27 oh yeah, makes me think that they can just give her a synthetic voice via some kind of technology she invented

Yes! Please do more of the Floor, love to hear all the conversations and food-for-thought-vibe in general.

I like this format a lot and I hope you continue it. I like when you're enthusiastic about what you're talking about.

I think for me there's a big difference between whether I like the character or if I like how they were used. Trahearne definitely in that niche for me. I also really like the three 'main' living story characters in general. I agree they got way too low screen time like all of the other characters almost, so I think some of why you like characters is your own headcanon of sorts. Anyway, my reasons is I find it so rare to have older npcs that go with you, and Forgal fits that so well. I replayed a vigil story recently and I still got shivers when he lists his accolades to join the Norn in legend, and my heart goes out to Sieran who has to sacrifice more than the others in a sense, being so young. I always thought Tybalt's sacrifice was more of a redemption for him, or at least, that is how he saw it as a charr disgraced in his mind more than anything. I wish we could have had them all as longer companions but, the sacrifice is effective for the narrative. I just wanted to add that Anet probably rushed you too fast to the commander position. In fact, I think holding a high rank in an order is something of a hindrance in character storytelling in an mmo. It's fine to be a chosen one or whatever since that's just your character, but if you're part of an organization and lead it, that means you are locked in storytelling because that has to be represented. I think that is why they ultimately have your character retire from the Pact in a sense, but that also shows it should not have been how our character progressed in the story imo. It would have been nicer to have more character moments in it, rather than pushing the promotion arc up. A small, very general spoiler in case somebody is playing ESO for side content so please stop reading here if you are new to it... some of the profession or faction guild arcs there is like that, where you don't just immediately take over an organization or whatever. The endings are more organic than that, and I always liked that side to it.

What if the Logan not leaving timeline is the steam creature, Asuran player character is "the Grand High Sovereign of his or her reality", timeline?

Ryland suddenly changing kinda makes sense if you consider the sudden change to be when he got corrupted by Jormag... But the fact that he doesn't change back after Jormag dies shuts down that idea.

*shrug* I was there for all of Season 1 (even the weekend Karka event), and I always loved Scarlett.

I like Logan a lot to. I think for me It goes back to the gw2 trailer. The first time I saw anything about GW2 was the the Races of Tyria trailer. It opens with Logan and his speach was super cool. Thinking back to early stuff from those first two weeks of gw2 I remember when Eir talked about giving Magdaer and getting so hyped and it never happened. I think something about hims being a hero from ascaon just makes him resonate with gw1 fans.

Not on FORGELS WATCH! Zoja was played by a brilliant voice actress from the net series "the guild" i LOVED ZOJA

Outside of being funny i fond tybalt to be the msot father like figure of the three, jes such a kind character i felt good being with them tho my personal favourite was the priory mentor.

Hey WP what is your favorite commander race? As in, which race do you think does the commander the most justice or seems the most suited for? As for me, I feel Sylvari is what the Commander is honestly meant to be.

On the alternate time-line thing. I don't think there is a time-line in which Glint survives. If I remember the order of events properly, Glint has to simultaneously act as bait while delivering Snaff's mind control device onto Kralk. I don't see how Logan staying could have changed that point.

I did Order of Whispers first (liked both the story and the mentor), then Durmand (liked the story, disliked the mentor), then Vigil (disliked the story, liked the mentor). After all of that Forgal ended up being my most favorite mentor, he was the only saving grace for Vigil story, and his dry sense of humor and no-BS attitude was right up my alley. I always see people saying his death was the least tragic one, but it's not the same for me. Not only it's right before his dying moment we finally get a glimpse into his life and feelings (losing his wife and children to the dragon, and burying his hopes with them), but... there was something more dying together with him. Despite him saying that his legend could live on with the Commander, even then I knew it wouldn't be the case. That the game wouldn't let me to actually pass on his legend. And even then... My Commander has zero relations to Norn culture, he doesn't know a thing about shamans. Forgal's line "My father was the last Dolyak Shaman!" gets to me every time. It's like his father was the last and now this bloodline is truly dead.

Crecia for Khan Ur? I feel like they made the idea of the Khan Ur a big thing that so many charr were vying for but it ended up as nothing. Crecia I felt embodied a charr that is worthy of Khan Ur, very much acting as a charr should and being a powerful leader the other legions are willing to follow, granted iron legion led by smodur was iffy. Still, I think it would be fantastic to see that story expanded.

So.. I want to talk about Braham from a unique spot. I'm a newer player (almost 2 years!) and I just got to the Drakkar part of the Icebrood Saga- and I disagree with Daniel. Oh yeah, Braham went off the deep end, kicked us when we were down, etc... but playing through his gathering up of the corrupted spirits has been shockingly cathartic for me. Listening to each one of them tell him off for his mistakes, force him to face his failures in the nastiest light possible- I didn't think I'd ever get over Crack in the Ice, but these conversations have been making me feel like this Braham- the Braham who is talking down these corrupted norn spirits- this is a Braham I can honestly want to call "friend". Maybe that will change in a couple of episodes, but I wanted to let the record show that right now, I have forgiven Braham for being a brat.

I think they had some plans for primordus. Maybe not with him talking a ton, but I think if you look act the locations he is at patch to patch active by ebonhawk and thunderhead it wouldnt shot me if there was meant to be a souther shiverpeaks set of maps with lots of dwarf and dredge stuff. Possibly even the bloodstone. Then later on when you lok at where he's active up by the flame legion. I kind of had the sense the original plan was they old flame legion was still trying to bring back Gaheron and accend him to godhood again, and this time he would have been destroyer powered. I think Braham becoming the champion of primordus more as a last ditch effort to stop Gaheron from gaining all that power would make a lot more sense then the way they set it up since Braham is 100% the dude who jumps on a grenade and then worries about it later. Also the positioning of them showing up at dragon storm probably would have had better reasonings if they had the time. Primordus is located right under Anvil Rock, and knowing how that location is so important to the Great Dwarf. I feel like there would have been some kind of magical storyline where anvil rock was some how used to summon/lure/force primordus to that location.

WP freaking DO that video man. Do that AU! I don't caaaaaaaaaare

I think I had a bit more patience with Braham because I had lost a parent. I think someone had grabbed the ‘5 stages of grief’ tried walking him through all of them. I can’t say he’s a favourite. The other thing was I predominantly play Norn so I’d had more time with his mother than he had…and then it made sense he was mad with me.

I have been excited thinking that the writers had a general storyline in mind for Logan. With Lake Doric release there is a story mission that takes part in the throne room. At the end of the story mission the commander is consoling Logan who gives up on Jenna and as a result accepts the offer to be the next Pact Marshal. During Icebrood Saga, there is a moment where characters gather around round table in Eye of the North. Logan then hints that he is seeing someone: "Personally? I've spent what little free time I have socializing, though a gentleman never tells...". However, it didn't occur to me that they might just be rebranding Logan.

I feel that saying goodbye brings finality to that character or relationship. If you tell someone goodbye, you won't see them again (and thats falling on just being cordial). A goodbye isn't the same as saying ill see you later, its having the strength to tell someone that our paths will diverge. It would be better put to say that you seek finality in the arc with a character, like being on the airship after the Kralkatorrik story instance. But being the commander kinda leads into the idea that if you need someone, they will help you out (casting aside the idea that the commander gives off being a very private individual). Side note, if your a Norn PC a couple story instances, Bram losing the bow to Ryland gives off a repeat, just that there's no Eir to help guide him.

On the subject of 'flash sideways', in the customer survey they sent out in around April this year it asked for feedback on Braham's Wildfire story instance, and asked if we would be open to experiencing similar things with other characters. Personally I think yes, especially since you are able to use your own skills but still explore characters and events unfolding that don't need to involve the commander. And out of all the things that have been left dead in this game, the treatment of Zojja has been absurd. Can we have a whole video discussing how dumb that treatment has been . . .

For the change in personality within the Commander from Core to basically the rest of the story in S2 onwards, while i see what you mean and i agree its a bit forced simply due to the shift of storytelling method, i don't think its that hard to also justify it by simply thinking the character has matured and took upon his role completely by that point, while Core are meant to be his early years. I actually like his dynamic within the group, he often feels like a parent figure to both Taimi and Braham and it led to some very interesting moments, including the one you mention in S4. The Charr VA pulls that vibe off particularly well, lol. I think its actually a very original approach for an RPG character to have a more mature figure as the protagonist (as these are usually side characters, see : Auron in FFX) and it works surprisingly well in the context of the fact that like you said, the characters do age in this story unlike in others and so do the playerbase of the game (and MMOs in general). Its not perfect of course, i do wish i could "roleplay" him more and at least have an impact on the decisions he makes and the way he reacts to things but i understand voice acting is very expensive. I def don't wish the game to go back to a silent or semi-silent protagonist. While i have more than enough imagination to make these work, its also kind of dull at times. For the whole "alternate reality where Logan doesn't ditch etc." If it was to be its own self-contained story like Fractals or Raids are... sure why not, "what ifs" are always fun to explore. But as part of the main story? Please god no. Its such a tired, overused and almost inevitably messy plot device that basically undo the impact pivotal moments such as this one are MEANT to have.

Something I'm started to think about when it comes to order mentors is trahearn isn't hated because himself or his personality but rather who he replaced people felled cheated when they killed of the personal story character and almost imidiatly replaced them with trahearn Pointing towards the issue of why some of them should have stayed longer it would also not make trahearn feel like such a slap in the face

When i see how well the Commander treats and forgives Braham, i feel sad for Caithe, i love Caithe and i hate the way she is treated in Heart of Thorns and Living World Season 3, the commander did not understand that she steals the egg in fear, because she did not know how she can trust, i feel so much sad and want to console her, but the commander just distrust her until the end of Season 3.

@thurok1992

2 жыл бұрын

Didn't Ryland just went nuts because she trust her mother and she let Smolder kill her lover (and all his friends before) and still protect him (Smolder) from Ryland? I think that made Ryland go nuts, to me his arc makes all the senses.

@Mjolnir1000

2 жыл бұрын

@@thurok1992 The thing with Ryland is that he probably was slowly being corrupted and manipulated by Jormag. Smodur's doing and the fallout with Crecia I believe served him more as an excuse in his eyes. For what I recalled from when Bangar is turned into the Voice is that Jormag has been whispering Bangar and puppetering his actions and they have been observing Ryland as well, so it's farfetched to think that also he had been whispered/manipulated by Jormag.

You didn't include Faren?

I know it's late but I have a defense of Braham post-Icebrood Saga. He wasn't around to piss me off in EoD. Best defense I have.

More episodes like this!

When it comes to characters I like in the whole story, I'd like to mention someone, Tonn's wife, Ceera, who was is the pact story and had a small role in HoT's story

i enjoy guild wars 2 because of the attention to detail they pay, animations, cutscenes both cinimatic and ingame, i love the voice acting ect..

I love your content WP and your insights into the game are inspired to say the least, but I think your obsession with Braham's bow is the perfect irony. To me, it shows just how good the writers were with the bow and with Braham in IBS.

@tuko357

2 жыл бұрын

Until they forgot to put the bow back in at the end of IBS

Not much of a defense, but I think that, despite mercilessly slaughtering all the Charr characters (Smodur, Bangar, Ryland and, quite literally, his whole warband), Drizzlewood has given us some decent insight into Braham's character. He struggles with being his own person, something more than a cheerful underling, and ultimately ends up making a decision that feels hard and weighted, so unlike when he randomly runs off after Joko in s4e3. I just find it a bit unfair to praise Marjory for disobeying the Commander or surviving a dramatic fight while simultaneously bashing Braham for those exact same things.

@Kabansky27

2 жыл бұрын

BTW Faren is totally E tier

I think one of the thing you said about the Commander Voice budget is a big thing nobody ever talks about. Think of it, everytime the PC speaks, it's 10 different voice actors you have to pay. PER LANGUAGE. So that's 30 actors, for one character inside the game. Imagine a world where anytime the commander was supposed to speak, you got 10 lines of dialogue from another character.I mean, I love the fact my Sylvari is Jennifer Hale you know, but is it worth the sacrifices...

About ryland I think its because they have to focus on elder dragons and they are somewhat limited in actual lore and writing i don't want them all to be killed of this quickly but given the amount of personality and writing with both bangar and ryland it makes me sort of optimistic when they don't have to force elder dragon storylines anymore maybe that actually might mean we gets more characters like ryland and bangar

I think after the end of dragons they should do an extended living world where we go back around all the area's we have been. And see how our actions have changed the world. And how people deal with the death of the dragons for example how they deal with racial relation now that they don't have the threat of dragons pushing them together.

I was there and i really loved Scarlet. Not as in oh os cute but how crazy she really was but also had some background that we in the end found out more about when she was dead. I dont get why so many dislikes her but i guess it is just personal perspective, i for example hate Traherne. I cringe when he talks and he do not feel down to earth to me but more like some scared guy who doing what he need to do whilst talking like a a whimp. I know a lot of people disagree with me but i guess it is the same with Scarlet. I also love Auroene and her story arc. I lovedTaimi and the comic relieafe she was and at the same time weak because she was a child. She is still someone i like just not as much as before.

I think a lot of the hate of scarlet was how she was so out of no where, and I remember a statement from back in the day being "the dev's forgot gw1 lore" because it felt super irrelevant for the first year where it had nothing to do with the dragons and nothing to do with the lore of gw1, and it wasn't just scarlet I remember the Karka event and Ellen Keil. People just being annoyed the story seemed irrelevant from the start. There was a really big shift in the community about the story and the writing that I remember really clearly and it was in the silverwastes when we find the forgotten symbol on the wall. Everyone was all excited that the dev's were getting into lore people cared about again, and it was here when anent started to get their footing with the story diving more into gw1 lore with the lower level of the pirory and the ghostly heroe. Zepherites being connected to the brotherhood of the dragon as well(tho it was very subtly teased in season 1). Looking back you can clearly see that Scarlet was a character used to tie together ideas and rebrand cut content(steam creatures and dredge from steamspur mountains storylines, pirates and krait from cut water themed maps, etc) and use it all as set up for the jungle dragon once they deiced to go with him as the second dragon. It wasn't handled well, but clearly it wasn't planned and the fact people hated water stuff really forced dev's to change plans. I still think the sea dragon would have been second if it wasn't for water combat. The fleet being killed by vines with the classic jaws line "its quite... too quite" right before vines reach out and break the fleet is just too perfect for it to have not been concepted as ships over water with tentacles reaching out.

this is random but with this video and last video, i think i know why a lot of ppl got angry at scarlet/caithe/braham, is that we the character could never be angry, we coudnt tell them off or express frustration, so it kinda just bottled up in the community, weird idea, but if there was a moment where the commander told braham to act like a damn norn, not a sulking child, it probably chill community, but also get more engrossed in story.

i really really like Logan :D

Sieran is my favourite of the order mentors that you get. I think the reason I remember the mentors the most was because of their sacrifice they made. It’s just a sad moment.

@Chilli_Thing_

2 жыл бұрын

If zojja ever comes back we need to explore what she was doing since the blighting pod because the longer she’s gone the more I believe she had a horrible time recovering from the blighting pod.

@Chilli_Thing_

2 жыл бұрын

I’m terms of braham I don’t like him because he frustrates me too much because it seems like he never learns his lesson. He fobbed us off in lws3 to go piss in jormags breakfast. Like cmon I hoped he would die at the end of dragon storm because he “sacrificed himself” to help bring an end to all the crap with jormag and I feel that would have made me like him more.

I really wish the Jormag Primordus battle would have happened on the ruins of one the the racial cities, DR being my first choice. I have ALWAYS wanted a raid or strike type thing set in something that used to be one of the racial cities. They kind of did this with LA but it wasn't a racial city, and you can't ever replay it. If they made DR or Hoelbrak a war zone that we could no longer access other than replaying the mission through a strike I would LOVE it. Fighting Icebrood and Destroyers through the streets of DR and then the Dragonstorm event happens in the gardens outside the throne room!

Characters lacking epilogues? Trahearne superiority strikes once again!

@mariablanco8678

2 жыл бұрын

I'm still annoyed that he died

I think the biggest problem with gw2 story right now is how it writes its characters. I mean, I've been in a lot of franchises and the level of investment this community seems to have in it's characters is a whole lot lower than most of the communities I've been in. The problem with gw2 characters at the moment is most of the time when a character is there, we are just focusing on an event that is happening and the focus isn't on the character, it's the action. Most of the characters also don't breathe life like characters from other shows/video games either. I guess what the writers for these characters struggle the most on is... personality? I just wish we would know more of what characters are thinking as the plot plays out. For example, when Blish died, I wish we got a detailed description of how Gorrik and/or without Taimi was feeling. Is Gorrik angry and bitter that Blish sacrificed himself when Gorrik gave him a body where he could have lived forever? Is he lonely now that, as far as we can see, he's lost the only person really close to him? Does he think Blish's death was worth it when it helped keep status reports on Kralk and helped evacuate so many villages that would have been lost? If we had that personal conversation with Gorrik, imagine how much more endeared to the community he would be(I mean not that I think he's bad right now, I actually like Gorrik). To have more of those raw human emotions from characters I think will get people invested in them a lot more. I think they should get a writer that specializes in writing characters, because really the only 3 characters that the community truly love are Joko, Bangar, and maybe Rytlock(maaaybe our core story mentors, but they were barely around that long, a lot of that love is just because they were one of the originals, and they aren't THAT beloved so I feel like they don't count) and this game has been around for how many years? You'd think there would be a lot more adored characters than that. I mean, you don't see people making reddit posts gushing about how much they love Kasmeer, or Zafirah, for example.

If there is one character I hate most, it's the 'commander'. For a multitude of reasons really. WP put it best in his recent video, that the Charr were too nice and that all the races got 'humanized' and I think that this phenomenon hits the hardest with the personal character. They are just so unbelievably bland, it is beyond infuriating. The Jessica Price controversy was another 'aha' moment for me, where she was basically arguing that the personal character should be as bland as possible, so that the player can 'fill the character with their own personality'. How that notion would even work never made sense to me. Just imagine a universe, where the human commander would be your run-of-the-mill, cookie-cutter, basic hero archetype, the Norn was always about legends and heros, who would seek out notable individuals, encourage his entourage to become notable heros and who themselves would strive to become a hero. The Charr would be more agressive and direct, more about raising an army, a well organized legion with no patience for 'unimportant' stuff, the Asuran command would get into constant who-is-smarter battles with Taimi, rely more on technology to solve their problems and so on, while the Sylvari would be more naive, trusting, looking for local support and so on. That is why I still think, to this day, that the very best the story ever were in GW2 was during the first 20 level personal story instances. The player character had an actual, racially flavored personality and it was great!

Ryland's character made sense, he always had ambition but he was sitll righteous. When Smodur kills his friend, and he feels betrayed, he snaps and lets himself be consumed by Jormag's influence.

While i don't like Ryland as a whole and his change was rushed i believe he had good reasons too. Just look at the whole drizzlewood map + story episodes , we systematically hunt down and kill his entire warband the closest thing charr have to an actual family . If they did one character dirty it was Smodur, i liked that charr more than Rytlock to an extent but they mad him into an asoohole instead of the legendary tactician he was supposed to be.

@devinm9245

2 жыл бұрын

I'm still put off by that, it was a neck jarring turn from being a progressive minded military leader to 'need to eliminate the threat' who were of his own race during the Charr's most crucial rebuilding time

When I played the Priory story and straight up got romantic undertones from Seiran with my commander. She's such a sweet baby.

Okay, I’ve had problems with people’ s criticisms with Braham . Don’t get me wrong I hated him in a crack in the ice because he was a baby shit. I just think the criticism “he isn’t acting Norn” is weird. Like somehow all Norns act stereotypically the same way, at all times, in all situations or something. In my opinion, an entire race acting the same in a game is lazy writing. In addition to that it’s not like there weren’t aspects of Braham that were Norn during those patches. He was striving to match his mother’s legend… just mostly with revenge and mourning as motivating factors. I don’t know, I just feel like the criticism “what he’s doing isn’t Norn” is a rather weak one. Like somehow Norn can’t stray from their stereotypes and they must be X, Y and Z. Same goes for all the races. Culturally, it’s okay to have these stereotypes but I feel like binding them to an individual character writes you into a confined box of character reactions. It doesn’t really account for a variety of different factors and variables that can have these characters react differently. I think the characters can be criticized but I don think this criticism particularly, is a good one PS I’d like to remind everyone that Aer mourned snaff and was guilty of her failings with destiny’s edge for all of base GW2 and that’s not really the Norn way of doing things either.

WP: This is how I feel about this character and it’s just my opinion. The comments: HOW DARE YOU 🤬

36:30, bombing every emotional and dramatic scene with comic relief? Sounds like Faren is the GW2 reply to the MCU!

You totaly forgot one of the best an beloved charackters in the entire story! What about Shashoo?!?!?!? ^^ just kiddin ;-)

That mount taxi has some janky pathing. Hope they slow it down some too, it’s moving too fast to appreciate the scenery