Hi Tony l, love your channel! I did exactly the same in the past i was trying to reflow a PS4 and was unsuccesfull. I came to the conclusion that hot air is too unaccurate when it comes to maintain the correct temperate result popcorning or uneven temperature and ripped pads. After some frustration i build my own ir6500 rework station. You can see the whole build proces on my channel. Using infrared top heater for apu, cpu, gpu and socket replacement was a big game changer! I had succesfully reflowed or reballed an PS4. Gr. Jim

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

I skimmed the video a bit - nice machine! I really don't do much BGA and I see people on the internet doing it with the same tools I have so I know it can be done. If you previously used the Aoyue I see in the video, well I see why that failed! If you check my old BGA video I analyse that station with a thermal camera: the heating element inside is never centered and the air temp ends up massively uneven - I mean like 500C on one side and 250C on the other. The Quick is a much better station and it should help a lot. An IR element (which is really not so IR but anyways, it's a heating plate) can probably be more even than the average hot air station. But kudos for the massive job, it looks like an impressive machine!

i genuinly love the humble style of your videos and how you show us your learning process to do that complicated stuff, i'd never even think about doing! keep it up like this!

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Thanks, appreciated! The journey is the fun! :)

hey tony! i would definitely suggest pushing the preheater more when it comes to bga work on these kinds of boards, it helps a lot. also, i would still heavily suggest reballing in these cases much more than trying to reflow unleaded solder, its not very likely to work unfortunately. i have found reballing to be easier with a proper stencil, correct size balls, and a small preheater plate to put the chip onto, heat it up, then go over it with hot air, that saved me a lot of time and annoyance when it came to reballing such size chips (mainly the ps3's RSX). good luck!

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

Thanks, appreciated! I have the stencil - I need to get that small preheater. I’ll experiment more with higher pre-heater and also a better thermocouple. One day… 🙂

I've worked with BGA for quite some time in my previous job and I live in a location with very high humidity. It was quite common to see chips popcorning like what yours did, and what we did to prevent this from happening is to bake the board for some hours at a maximum of 100C (not above that because it will damage capacitors). When reworking, try to preheat the motherboard to higher temperatures. That will reduce the time that you are blasting the chip with hot air. Poke the chip to check when the solder is liquid and immediately stop the hot air. By the way, there's a trick to "fix" this issue without resoldering: increase the tension of the metal clamp that holds the heatsink with a couple of metal washers. It's quite an effective workaround

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

unfortunately I did bake the board at 100C for a few hours. But yes, I need to pre-heat at higher temps and I am also getting a more reliable thermocouple. I did try the washer trick and no luck unfortunately. Interesting to hear about the higher humidity - in the UK humidity is on the high side most of the time indeed. Thanks for your input!

I reckon it's because the inside of the PCB is cooler than the outer surface, ie, the surface expands while inside the MB is cooler/contracted, so when the glue softens the surface pops up because it's expanded relative to the inside layers. What backs that up is I've seen people on YT oven reflow to the point that the plastic parts on the MB melt, ie, overheated, yet you never see popcorn on them, only on external hot air reflows. On the other hand I've seen Electronics Repair School use high heat fast directly on the IC, which I guess melts the balls under the IC fast, and he doesn't get popcorn.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

It could be but the thing is that in an oven you heat up things very uniformly - I think. The purpose of the hot air is to direct the heat away from sensitive components. A plastic connector will melt at 250C - but an IC will not. My guess is that if you reflow a board in an oven at 300C, it will also popcorn. But I cannot be sure. Sorin usually deals with small ICs. Those are much simpler to work with: the heat immediately transfers to the substrate and reaches the solder balls. When it comes to large components, they are basically insulating the balls from the heat. My 2p opinion of course, who gives me the right to say all this if my process doesn't work :)

23:54 At this exact point in the video, I would have thrown everything out the window. I would have honestly given up.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

ahahaha the temptation was strong, trust me! :) (It would have probably resulted in a more entertaining video, the heatsink falling on the board, zoom in on the missing components, zoom in on my eye twitching and then wide shot of me throwing everything out of the window - thanks for watching!) 😂

too bad it didn't work but the video was very informative and fun, Tony

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

I'm glad you feel that way despite the outcome! Cheers!

Very much an experimental project that didn't quite work out this time around. I do like your troubleshooting style. You're not gonna have trials without some popcorn along the way! 🍿

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Indeed - though it's high time to see some results! ;)

Hi Tony, I feel the same way as you about BGA chips, I get better results with a hand held and keep it moving around the chip so you don't burn one place or more. Bob. UK

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

Thanks for your input!

Just to let you feel better - I did manage to kill the HP monitor board we have been talking about some time ago :)

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Oh no, I never feel better when something like that happens! :) Sorry about the HP! It now displays beautiful pictures in the monitors' heaven! ;)

Amazing video Tony. You did your best; I guess the key is that you do not have the required costly equipment. Years ago, I visited a factory and they didn't use air but submerged the boards in a kind of "special liquid" to reach homogeneous temperatures on the board surfaces. Weird chemistry and top-notch equipment to which you cannot get even closer at home. Anyway, learning by breaking is the correct direction to follow 🙂

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Yes, even the "BGA rework machines" are nothing compared to what they use at the factory. I've also noticed a JBC pre-heater is £9000 (yes, it's not a typo) while my "BBQ grille" is £100 :) I mean, you get what you pay for :) I'll get there one day! Thanks for watching!

Bad luck Tony. I've heard and seen some crazy things like people putting boards in their cooking oven to reflow them, no tools or anything. What is the popcorn? Was that the solder gooping out? Great video!

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Yes, some videos can be frustrating (or suspicious if you want!) :)

Great video again!

@tony359

4 күн бұрын

Thanks again!

You made a great video! Thank you.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

thank you!

Nice attempt! I've done a few of these (PS4 reball) with the same tools that you are using. I think I have done 2 videos.

@tony359

3 күн бұрын

Nice channel - so many videos! Susbscribed! I found at least one of those PS4 videos - I'm puzzled! You pre-heated the board to only 107C. Then you use hot air (what temp and airflow would you use on the station?) keeping it farther than I would - this will definitely help in heating up the PCB as well, which is crucial. I suppose in your scenario the idea is "I use low temp and keep the nozzle away so the APU **AND** the PCB slowly heat up over many minutes. What I did, I focussed the heat on top of the APU ending up overheating the APU which was unable to pass that heat to the PCB. Some thoughts: 1. I can also use some kapton on top of the APU - that might shield some of the most dangerous heat. I'm actually wondering if I should get a thin square of copper to keep on top of the ICs as a shield, so that the hot air heats primarily the PCB and not the IC. 2. I should keep the nozzle further away from the IC - at least with those massive ICs where the nozzle is just not big enough to heat up the PCB Is your Quick the DE or DW model? Finally, I see your PS4 has a smaller footprint which fits on the pre-heater. Sorry for the long message - and thanks for your comment!

@ToltecMerc

3 күн бұрын

@@tony359 I emailed you some links to my videos and my notes on how I did it.

@tony359

2 күн бұрын

Got it, thank you. It's very kind of you to share your knowledge and to invest time to help me!

Many argues that reflowing and reballing does not relly fix the problem anyway, as it is the APU itself that is faulty (internal bonds that breaks), so heating it up can make it to temporarily work for a month or two. So reballing with a known good APU is the only thing that works in the long run.

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

That definitely applies to PS3, XBOX and that era components - a PS4 APU might be faulty as you say of course but it shouldn't be a case of "they all die because of a manufacturing issue". But of course, anything is possible. I'd like to learn the process anyways though - if I can't even flow the solder, I can't even think of replacing the APU! Thanks for your input! :)

As many already pointed out the preheater should be at higher temp and also I think that you need to start with the hot air a bit farther away from the board so it can heat the surrounding area near the cheap to a higher temp before lowering it for final reflow.

@tony359

4 күн бұрын

Yes, I can agree with that: the bottom line is that I need to heat up the PCB more. The issue with these ICs is that they're as big as the nozzle is and that's the biggest nozzle you can buy. I need something larger so hot air also goes on the PCB. Thank you!

Whenever I reflow BGAs I always get the best results when I can push the heat through the main PCB itself, I try to think of the IC ontop as a place heat will more readily try to escape from, and need a little bit of supplemental heat added to it, rather than being the thing that should take all the heat, the substrate it's comprised of, usually just isn't thermally conductive enough to be the focus of the heating operation, so the top layer absorbs all the heat, retains it, skyrockets in temperature, and gets wrecked, just can't can't pass the heat to the PCB fast enough for a reflow operation like that.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

I very much agree with you!

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Your comment made me think. I think one reason why this fails is that the APU is quite large and the largest nozzle I can get (45x45) is not large enough, that is, it barely covers the APU and does not cover some of the nearby PCB. As you say, I need to get heat at the solder balls, not the top of the IC. Some thoughts I've just had 1. Keep the nozzle farther away. That way the hot air will reach more PCB as well (my station is pretty powerful, it's the 200L/m version) 2. Install a (1mm?) copper rectangle on top of the APU. That will somehow shield the APU a bit and let the hot air get to the PCB. I think I see this on some videos sometimes? 3. The reason why "IR heaters" are more succesfull is that they are much bigger, they heat up a larger area - hence the heat reaches the underneath. 4. Crank up the pre-heater 5. Install a not-too-fine metal mesh under the board with an opening around the APU. That might allow to turn up the pre-heater so the area under the APU gets hotter without having to overheat the whole board Food for thoughts! :)

I like your thorough approach to diagnostics. Often I doubt into myself if I came to good conclusions. Second way to confirm diagnose is very welcome.

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

Thanks! It’s also nice to know how to do that in case the fault is not so obvious!

15 years of experience I have😅 but after watching your efforts I think there is something to find more😅 Thank you Tony❤❤ (and yes reballing is not easy😂)

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

Thank you! Yes, I never stop learning of course! :)

34:28 What we normally do is bake the board at 70-100C for 12 hours. Should be enough to counter any popcorns

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

I baked it for 5 hours - The problem with 12 hours is that I use my pre-heater (with a hood) to bake it and I don't feel like leaving it unsupervised. I'd need a proper oven and I don't have space for that. But thanks for your input!

@jackipiegg

4 күн бұрын

@@tony359 A cheap toaster oven will do tbh, they keep temps pretty low at 70-100C so it won't burn anything down.

@tony359

4 күн бұрын

Of course - I just don't have space for an oven! :) Particularly because I seldom do BGA and I cannot justify that amount of space used.

@jackipiegg

4 күн бұрын

@@tony359 I justify it being a 2 in 1 machine. It can bake powder coated metals + pre-heat boards!

@tony359

4 күн бұрын

I would definitely get one if I had more space. It can be useful. To dry a board for example. But when you start walking on stuff you have to prioritise what to get and what not to get :)

Tony, I appreciate your willingness to "give it a try". Keep in mind, failure reveals the path to success. Thanks for the videos 👍

@tony359

3 күн бұрын

Very kind of you, thanks! I cannot give up now, I am close to master BGA, I can feel it! :)

Mhhh, smooth desoldering and resoldering of that flash IC 😊

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

"you destroyed the PS4 but that IC removal... amazing!" :D Thanks!

@Bergi2000

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 the ps4 is not important! your learning & fun, our entertainment - that seems to have an importance to you - has! :-) am i wrong? For me it is just a question of viewpoint...

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

You're not wrong! Though it's cool(ER) if you can also win. But hey, we learn from our failures! My comment was only ironic!

@Bergi2000

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 irony is too difficile for me, i'm kind'a sheldon on this (only on this). you have to send me a fax to warn me before beeing ironic. :-)

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

oh, I can understand! And in writing "emotions" are not showing so don't worry! (Can I have your fax number please?) ;)

Hmm. Early xbox 360 heatsink. I did the same thing knocking a 0402 cap off. I'm working on a macbook logic board and alot of the stuff is 0201. Just some quick tacks works unless its a ground plane. Need hot air then. I should be getting the Atten station Louis Rossmann sells soon. My $40 858D wont flow the SMC bga chip I need to change on it.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

0201 means SMALLER? OMG! Those are just grain of dust!

Hi Tony! Have you link where to buy low melt solder? Thx

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

I got it from Ebay, no special place. It is a must! Get a few meters, you don't need much, it will mix with the existing solder and lower the temp massively!

Maybe you got a slight draft in your Workshop. This can skew the temperature reading quite a bit.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Well, when re-flowing I have my massive extractor or I die of toxic fumes. That's why I am mostly rely on the IR meter. But The fact that the thermocouple read 150 when I had 170 at the IR is also puzzling. After all, IR thermometers will read depending on reflectivity - so accuracy might not be great. Try measuring a shiny heatsink :) Variables! A lot! :)

I have watched a lot of console repair videos and I have observed when a donor component is nearby heat sensitive components or for example, a port is to be removed near heat sensitive components the heating is actually mainly applied UNDERNEATH the PCB board, maybe this is the way to Go???

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

For smaller components sure. For an HDMI port, you pre-heat and then apply heat underneath or you melt the component. Even for a capacitor, you heat up underneath. For an APU you have to warm up the whole board but yes, the "best" BGA rework stations have an additional nozzle underneath to do exactly what you say. I think I will try modding my setup so more heat is focussed underneath and particularly under the APU. Thanks!

Tony, If you try to heat Just one site at This board, it'll bend. Try to heat entire board to 180-200 celsius degrees, after, If this uses a delead balls, you'll need ti heat to something around 240 degrees. If os leaded, heat to 225 degrees. Don't forget to use some flux. It's enough to try a reflow. Maybe can be a good Idea try on a old Motherboard first. Best regards from Brasil.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Of course, the pre-heater is there to heat the board uniformly - though this PS4 is large and it inevitably overspills the heating area. I tried on the PS3 board, I mentioned that in the video but it was at the end. 200C pre-heating is probably a good course of action which I'll try soon! Cheers!

@jonatas464

5 күн бұрын

Sorry, I wrote before end. A little tip. Start with old chips, like VIA 8235. They're smalls south bridges .One day I tell you my saga trying to do this in 2005. Can you imagine any boy asking for stain balls at any Store? Rsrsrs. "Is this a joke, boy? Get out of here!" To measure pre heating, put you thermal at top of this chip. When reach 200 degrees, look the temperature that is measuring at the bottom. For example, 200 at the top and 250 at bottom. Then you start to heat the top of this chip. Never Go higher than 245 or 250. BUT!!! BUT!!! Listen, rsrsrsrsrsr! Be carefull. Sometime isn't any cracked balls. Sometimes the problem os with detaching layers.. Some connections between layers can crack. I'll suggest you to get a clamp to press the memory chip against the board. Thanks for your videos. I'm trying to film some videos by fixing my boards.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

@@jonatas464 The thing with old boards is that... I want to fix them! I never end up with something "broken enough" to use as sacrificial boards! I do have 2 XBOX 360 I bought for this task. Yes, I understand what you mean. Check the temp on the IC and then look at what the pre-heater says. For the PCB to read 170C, my pre-heater has to be set to 275C. I'm aware that what the pre-heater says is only the temp at its sensor. However, it's the "thermocouple on top" which puzzles me. That won't tell you the IC temp. 3/4 of the thermocouple is touching air. That's why I am using the laser meter - but even that one will depend on the reflectivity of the surface. I'm sourcing what should be a better thermocouple. Hopefully that might help in getting some more reliable readings :) I tried applying pressure on the APU and on the RAM, it never went past the BLOD unfortunately. Thank you!

@jonatas464

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 maybe put some thermal paste to help heat to reach IC?

No sure of the significance but during the thermal analysis, it looked like one of the power phases at the top of the frame was stone cold as well (fourth from the right). Shouldn't that mosfet be lighting up along with the others?

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

VERY interesting! That phase ends up together with all the others so... uhm........ I need to find a thermal analysis of a working board! Thank you!

"a royal pain" i nearly crapped my pants 😂

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

The full sentence could not be spoken but should be clear enough :)

@Bergi2000

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 it is clear - nellculo

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

ahahaha!

@IlBiggo

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 Or "in the neck", which works for the English and is a subtle quasi-homophone in Italian :D

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

"in the neck" is the polite version, yet :)

You need to increase the preheating temp, more like 200-210c. Also the hot air is not enough to rise the apu temp to 230c. Popcorn can occur because too much flux and of course too much heating time at a wrong temp… I’d suggest to buy an older honton bga station… works like a charm! Gl!

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Well, I don't do that very often, I cannot justify investing in BGA reworking equipment just for fun :) What do you mean with "hot air is not enough to raise the APU temp to 230"?

@justinc9991

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 the hose and the air gun are undersized in my opinion compared with a larger square tube for bga station. Ps board are notorious for heat dissipation. Anyway using higher preheating temp is always a good option. Older honton i think you can source one used less then half price… depends on your luck :)

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

Well, that's the 861DE version, 200L/m. In comparison the common DW is 120L/m. And smaller "Aoyue" are 40L/m. So I should have enough juice. I just think it's a matter of heating it more and maybe a bit better. I appreciate the suggestion but I don't have space for a BGA station! :)

@justinc9991

5 күн бұрын

@@tony359 so, i have bga and the t’s not that huge, but it does it’s job. It uses hot air but it has a larger diameter. It has upper heating, lower heating and preheating plates. It’s awkward because you can only use them all 3 in the middle of the heating area… it does it’s job flawlessly. Preheating is se to 240c and i ran the reflow/desolder/solder program when i see on preheating 180c Preheating works all the time, also when the main program ia running! At the end of the program preheating reaches 240! Board is at 210c The board sits above preheating like 10cm… NOW: for your preheating, i think there you made a mistake by sealing with aluminum foil. Why? Because the temp. sensor of the preheating ia sitting right above the heating plate. Creating a chamber, will keep the hot air trapped, this will “fool” the temp sensor and the station will cut off power to the heating elements. Indeed you have 200c air underneath the pcb, but it won’t be enough to heat your pcb layers. Removing the foil will let the air circulate, temp.sensor will read correctly, and by nature the hot air will rise and heat your board, of course will suck cold air underneath but it will be rapidly become hot… i hope you understand my thoughts:)

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

If I don't seal the edges of the board get too cold. Sealing creates a chamber, sure, but it traps the hot air and prevents uneven heating which might warp the board. What matters is that the PCB reaches the required temperature AT THE TOP and it did - at least my laser meter said that but the thermocouple - as I explained in the video - did not agree. Next time I'll definitely try a higher pre-heating temp, I'll give it more time to evenly heat up and I'll try to get a better thermocouple. I appreciate those stations are good but I don't do BGA! :)

You have broken connections under the apu. RAMs on the right which do not heat up are disconnected. This console probably suffered fall damage. Repairing ripped pads under the apu and reballing is your only option.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

well, it's too late now.. :(

watch the video of rip felix on how to reball, he did it on a ps3 and he said that you need to bake the board at 150 degrees for 24 hours before doing the reballing

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

I’m ok with more time but 150 feels a bit too much for some components - But who knows, maybe it’s the solution. Thanks for your input!

Well, you win some you loose some. Better luck next time!

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

I won't give up! :)

I wonder why KZread creators, make second channel even if they claim that they didn't need it.

@tony359

5 күн бұрын

'cause it's fun but it also means more work :)

Reflowing without reballing (use pb balls!) isn't worth it. May work for 2-3 weeks, but returns on your desk after a short time.

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

I am aware - Anyways, I need to flow the solder first in any case! :)

@dolphhandcreme

6 күн бұрын

@@tony359 yes, totally right. In my opinion the problem is the early pb free soldering. Many devices of that Era died after some hundred heat cool cycles because of this. The Golden Era of plopping caps and breaking balls! I remember it as the p4 Era. 😀

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

it was an interesting time indeed! :)

Man.... of course you will popcorn it with those temps, too high up, too low down🤦‍♂ With your equipment better buy an air down preheater better

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

what is an "air down preheater"? Of course I'm happy to hear all other experiences. Do you mind sharing some numbers so I can compare? Thanks!

Anyway it was interesting 😟

Link to the second channel redirects to a 404 :(

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

Super appreciated! Thank you, it's fixed now!

Ps3 reflow/reball doesn't work, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't fix ps4s either.

@tony359

6 күн бұрын

PS3 fail for a manufacturing defect in the graphic IC - same as XboX. The PS4 does not suffer this problem and more often than not a reball can cure these issues - AFAIK. Even if it wasn't working though I'd like to be able to do that without damaging the IC! :) Thanks for watching!