Thank you for putting in the time to create this English channel. Love the videos.

@KOT-ANGRY

2 жыл бұрын

Analogic love ❤

@volvo09

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, very much appreciated!

@der8auer-en

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your support!

I've found the best way of opening plastic chips like this without any chemicals is using a heat-gun and a vice. Place the chip into the vice with the top of the chip facing the heat gun. As you heat up the chip, after about a minute and a half, the plastic will become quite soft and less brittle. If you slowly close the vice while still heating the chip, the plastic and bond wires will cleanly separate from the silicon leaving you with just the silicon die and all of the circuits in perfect condition. It might take a few tries to get the hang of it, so I'd recommend doing some practice runs on some less valuable chips first. I've opened hundreds of chips this way, the oldest of which was from 1988 and it worked great, so hopefully it works on this one too!

@robertjanbout1437

2 жыл бұрын

I used just pliers to cut the package and some pieces of the silicon stay intact. But that will damaga your silicon, while your method seems to be good in keeping it untouched

@balaurul100

2 жыл бұрын

Yes works, Curious Mark recommends the same method.

@DoctorX17

2 жыл бұрын

So they still work but have no protective cover? I’d love to see them sealed in clear resin

@robertjanbout1437

2 жыл бұрын

@@DoctorX17 chances are low, but one should be able to get a working one. The most tricky part is maybe the connections from the silicon to the leads of the package

@der8auer - CuriousMarc here on KZread has a video where he just cooks them in a skillet with a friend. Look up "Chips a la Antoine: an IC chip de-capping recipe without chemicals" They just pop open and reveal all the beauty inside.

@JosiahGould

2 жыл бұрын

That's exactly what I was about to suggest. It doesn't work every time so I'd highly suggest practicing with some other less valuable chips first.

@Xx80Pedro08xX

2 жыл бұрын

incineration also works, burn dem to a crisp

2 жыл бұрын

Yea I was about to suggest that method to.

@der8auer-en

2 жыл бұрын

Will look into that 💪🏼 thanks

@yahnnobber5096

2 жыл бұрын

@@der8auer-en Bitte schön. Can't wait to see you have fun with it!

This lets you know how weird the 1990's and 2000's were for their fast pace of CPU speed increase. From 1971 to 1981 we had the decade of the 4004 mid 80's to late 2000's was an explosion of processing power, then we had the decade of the I7 sandbridge CPU in the 2010's.

@MichaelPohoreski

2 жыл бұрын

*Intel:* _We held quad-core gaming back a decade._ *AMD:* _We put the AMD in Amdahl's Law._

@zorbalight3933

2 жыл бұрын

@@MichaelPohoreski If Intel held it back, by your standards AMD were not even in the near vicinity of the game during that time.

@pavelperina7629

2 жыл бұрын

I would not say to late 2000s. Imagine that 486 is from the very end of 80s, but it was extremely expensive so even at early 90s typical processor was 286. In 1996 Pentium was affordable and it was way faster. In 2001 Ahtlon XP 1700+ was affordable and it was like 15 times faster than Pentium not to mention that GPUs started. But in 90s computer were obsolete in two or three years, while today they can last 6-10 years. I don't even remember any good PC games before 286. I recall Sopwith, Digger,AlleyCat, and Tetris running on crappy 640x200 resolution with 4 shades of gray.

@MichaelPohoreski

2 жыл бұрын

@@zorbalight3933 AMD definitely struggled to have competitive chips until Ryzen came along. (The success of Opteron in the server room being the exception.)

@alexojideagu

Жыл бұрын

@@pavelperina7629 486's became very affordable after 1994, the 486 DX2 66mhz was the most popular PC chip in the world for gaming and Multimedia at that time for power/price. It was the chip that kickstarted serious PC gaming. The Pentium took a few years to become popular due to its price. 486 Chips were still seen as very good value in 1995. And new versions at 75mhz and 100mhz came out alongside the first pentiums.

Sick stargate tattoo.

Brings back memories. This chip got me excited enough to decide to try to build a computer but I was to young and couldn't afford it. My first home made one wasn't until the 8080 first came out.

I'm not sure how many more DIP chips you'll be delidding, but you would find it much easier to hold it if you put the chip in a through-hole socket, maybe even soldered to a bit of perf board. Excellent content, by the way.

@annyone3293

7 ай бұрын

Excellent content? Dude read out Wikipedia history section on 4004 and then just ground the chip down to substrate.

Great video, love the history! Thanks for doing this. Love seeing how far we've come. Keep up the great content, love watching your channel!

Really cool watching you revisit those older chips. Still an amazing piece of technology.

How about literally dry cooking it on a flat surface like a well tempered, regulated copper hot plate. I wouldnt use a 'frying pan' as that much heat would transfer through and might just melt everything. You want a temp that would melt the plastic, but not the metal.

More good and unique content, hope this channel keeps growing I used to never get suggestions of the old one unless I look it up myself.

Hey der8auer! Grind or sand until .5mm or less from the circuit! Then use heat to soften the remaining epoxy and hand scrape with a small scraping tool! Greetings from Vancouver British Columbia Canada! Ride ride ride!

Thank you very much for your videos and for your content.

Die shots are INCREDIBLY interesting, thank you for the English channel!

Now he need this thing overclocked with LN2

@randgrithr7387

2 жыл бұрын

7 Calculators 1 DIP chip

This was very cool to watch! I hope you find another method

You know, I worked for Intel back in the 90's and still have the 25th anniversary brass desk clock with the bare die on the clock face. I should go dig it out of storage. Do an image search if you're curious what it looks like...

this is why I love this channel, original content.

A solvent such as Acetone or MEK is what I use to remove extra epoxy and various polymer coatings. Will probably take a fair bit longer but should be able to do a good job depending on the exact material. A quick search just gives me vague answers such as plastic, if anyone has more detailed info I should be able to find something. You can probably just use heat to remove the majority of the material (scrape it with a soldering iron to annoy people :P) then soften the rest with whatever solvent. EDIT: If you can get good penetration you can probably get the plastic to delaminate from the IC, it happens surprisingly often for my samples but thats a different situation.

@blipman17

2 жыл бұрын

Acetone should be a strong contender for dissolving plastics. You can order a bottle online for 10 bucks. If you know the exact polymer, then you should be able to judge what kind of plastics work and which don't. Acetone might leave a residue, but this could probably be cleaned with isopropanol, which will also clean it very well for die-shots.

@matthewkuhl79

2 жыл бұрын

i miss being able to easily buy MEK. California is a bit of a party pooper state.

@moshedolejsi9033

2 жыл бұрын

If the plastic top is crosslinked (which I assume it would be probs some kinda thermoset) then it is insoluble.

Very nice video series/serious!

Thanks for doing this type of stuff even if it doesn't work perfectly.

The plastic is softer than the die, maybe you could use air and an abrasion material that isn't hard enough to scratch the die but can blow away the plastic

@moshedolejsi9033

2 жыл бұрын

Issue is at this point you're talking aluminum interconnects. Aluminum is veryyyy soft :( Not sure what the state of the art dielectric was at this point but you might be able to rely somewhat on the SiOx to help stop the abrasion but it would be tricky. Remember the way he is doing it the Si substrate is at the bottom so he can't just land on that.

I appreciate that tattoo from stargate.

@godevskii

2 жыл бұрын

What address might that be?

@jakub7777

2 жыл бұрын

@@godevskii dunno, but it's adress from earth to somewhere

Next video: "We put the Intel 4004 under LN2 *Beats 12900k*"

@liviubita4238

2 жыл бұрын

Dreams are for free. 😁

You're slowly and steady becoming one of my legends...

10 micrometer?? That's wild. I hand-solder micro-BGA and patch broken pcb traces on that level some times, I can't imagine making something like that with 1970s tools 🤯

@robertsneddon731

2 жыл бұрын

"Tape-out" of a chip and early CPUs used to involve making mask masters using clear acetate sheets and coloured opaque tapes laid down by hand. The masters would be photographically reduced to the final size for photo-etching and processing of the silicon.

My first PC processor was the AMD of the time. The Zilog Z80 with a separate math co-processor.

@der8auer EN. Heads up! The autogenerated subtitles are set to German.

Melt off the resin with a wooden skewer rod as the fuel, lighters or burners would be too hot: Re the chip: The resin it is encased in melts at 160ºC and the gold melts at 1064ºC, Wood burns around 160ºC the solder that holds the wires if there is any should be 90-450ºC

to remove the chip from the epoxy, you can use a blowtorch or something like this, the epoxy will disintegrate and the chip will only have minor damage (sometimes there are little marque of burning)

@Ubya_

2 жыл бұрын

i agree, i've burned quite a bit of ICs to see the silicon inside (and recover the gold connections xD), the silicon die doesn't care much about being put in a 800°C environment. it may not be functional anymore because of new oxide layers, but if the scope is just to be able to see the traces, this is a viable method

I thought I could see some circuit when you first uncovered the die. The problem is you were uneven in the grinding. What you need is finder sand paper and a disc grinder so you can choose where to grind. Stop sooner and look at it under a microscope the moment you see the traces.

Shouts out to Federico Faggin - for the 4004 but mainly just for having the most epic name ever.

@MJ-uk6lu

2 жыл бұрын

That same dude also showed middle finger to Intel by making Zilog Z80, which beat Intel really badly at the time. What a chad.

You should really talk to John Mcmaster and/or Ken Shirriff if you want to decap/photograph more old school ICs

you should really make a playlist for HW-Legends

I would definitely echo what someone else said about practicing on some less important ICs. If it were me, I'd try asking Intel if there was anything they made around the same time that uses the same packaging, but that doesn't have the same monetary value today as that chip. For example, if they made some memory ICs that were in the same sort of packaging you could look online for non-functioning donor boards that have a bunch of them on, & then use them for practice.

nitric acid tends to be to go-to chemical to decap normal plastic capsules. Sufuric might also work though.

Still don't have one in the collection due to its (understandably) high price and this guy destroys one just like that. XD But jokes aside, great stuff, danke shön!

That was quite a Linus you pulled there, breaking the chip. Interesting content anyways and good luck finding the best delliding method from all the actual useful comments.

@AaronShenghao

2 жыл бұрын

Linus break stuff by dropping them, this is more like classic deliding fail.

@der8auer-en

2 жыл бұрын

😂💪🏼

can you compare all thermal pastes & pads for performance differences since lots of them are lying about actual thermal conductivities? Your experiment videos are really good and I think important to enthusiasts.

I know applied science did a video "delidding" a 555 and then scanning it with his SEM while it was running

Is this a Stargate gate address on your right arm? I'm just noticing... 🤩

Stargate tattoo with the address for PB5-926. Nice.

01:25 it's something DerBauer,JayzTwoCents and well me know well since we also drive powerful cars, power isn't free and no magical "nodes" change that fact 200-300fps like RTX3000 or RX6000 gpus pump out in 1080p is twice the graphic power the acclaimed 1080ti had, having that for less than double the watts is already a win

I don't know. What I've found is that chip package is epoxy or plastic mixed with very fine sand (I tried to run EDS analysis on it once, it can be almost directly used as a sample for mineralogy analysis). But aren't traces inside CPU big enough for some industrial CT? I don't know their specifications, but it seems like chip might be 3mm wide, plaque is maybe 15cm tall, so anything with 100x magnification might be fine.

You should have posted the original video of you delidding the first Intel CPU back in '71. Over a decade before the first camcorder even existed

It would be interesting to use a non destructive chemical method to dissolve the package and then cast it again in clear epoxy.

Is that a stargate address on your arm?

You can probably burn the dip package until it turns into ash and just take out the die. Or to keep oxygen aways from the die burn it until it is only carbon and slowly scrap the carbon away. From my experience this works pretty well but don't heat the die up too hot as to melt it and mess up the circuit.

grind and lap from the bottom side of the ic

Can you cover the Cooler Master V8 and V10 on one of your future HW-Legends? Wish that cooler manufacturers would release coolers more exciting than tower coolers clad in plastic... Thanks

If you ever want to open things with strong acids, just send them to me. I'm a chemist and use these things regularly for my research, so I have the equipment at work to handle them safely.

I can't believe you did that to a 4004! Lol.. The acid method is the most likely, but it'd be nice to have a way to have the chip still operational as well.. Maybe measure as best you can and use your CNC machine? It's fairly accurate after all, then take off the last microscopic layer with a dab of nitric so you don't have to submerge the chip, which could expose the die and ideally leave the wiring intact? If the substrate/epoxy dissolves quicker than gold will, anyway..

Awesome

50 Years later and Intel 's still in the game!

You have access to a high precision CNC milling machine, why don't you try using that?

@riccardosacchetti

2 жыл бұрын

There's a video on KZread that restore an old NASA CPU with a CNC machine just by open it!

what cpu did they use to make/design the 4004 with?

7:38, is that the circuit? under the fade between the sanded chip & black material.

@der8auer-en

2 жыл бұрын

Yes!

@Bill-lt5qf

2 жыл бұрын

@@der8auer-en amazing, thanks for clarifying.

I've learned programming on 8088 emulators!

Now that it is delidded, can you direct die cool it to over clock it?

So the Tattoo is gate code 12-36-23-18-7-27 to PB5-926 from the episode Serpent's Song, What the hell does this tattoo mean!!! please do tell!! So curious!

X-ray imaging, a non destructive approach would be best

I love CPU history

@volvo09

2 жыл бұрын

BTW, thanks for sparing the ceramic one!!

i've seen laser etching out of plastics with low power hobby lasers in raster mode. i think this is similar to how AMD does it in research lab

Can the Intel 4004 be overclocked? if so an extreme overclocking of one with LN2 could be fun :D

Pople uses Hot air station to remove Metal shield of ceramic package.. that exposes.intel's Actual Silicon die... Actually that shield is soldered using solder.. so a flexible knife and hot air smd station can easily open that ceramic one..

would acetone dissolve the plastic away or is it a ceramic?

I prayed as a child for this chip

Fume extractor and acid!

grind till the bond wires start to show then place the cpu upside down in a shallow bath of acetone. then rinse the top with more acetone and repeat upside down bath till cpu is exposed. mek is overkill and can weaken the epoxy sub layer under the die, with acetone and controlling the depth of the bath you could actually still use the cpu and play around with overclocking it for a future video if you control the depth of the acetone bath well enough.

Almost read that as "deleting" lol

Nitric acid is a bad idea, as it will also attack the metals (except the gold), probably more than the polymer, even tho ECN is weak against it. What you need is a suitable solvent that will dissolve the polymer part, and very few solvents are able to attack the metal parts. Most phenolic-related compounds (ECN is such) are weak against Ketones, so letting it soak in "MEK" (Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone) or Acetone for whatever amount of days necessary is probably the most careful approach. Edit: warming it a bit too might speed up the process...

now having flashbacks to talks on reverse engineering MOS CPUs.

the Gold 4004 CPU was made in the Philippines 😁

How about freezing the cpu and then use ultrasound ?

Nov 15, 1971. Skynet went live.

There are good ways to decap this chip in a cleaner way. Some people does that heating it with a hot air station and a lot of patience

Guy deals with cryogenic temperatures in situations where the risk of asphyxiation is real. Builds an automated LN2 overcloking machine. Develops a bunch of hardware for extreme overclocking. Can't be arsed to talk with experts in chemistry to properly, and safely, decap an IC, yeah...

Wonder if any 4004 devices are still in service? Even in a game.

@herrbonk3635

2 жыл бұрын

They were not used for any games afaik (although the speak and spell used a 4-bit CPU from Texas instruments), rather for calculators, cash registers and such. The following byte based 8008 was more popular, used in early personal computers, industrial computers, robots, and similar applications. But even that one was pretty soon replaced by the much enhanced 8080 (and then by Zilog Z80 or Intel 8085).

this is crazy and cool today is my birthday and yes i am 50 today

Ask Ken Sheriff on Twitter if he has any you could borrow? He might have or know someone who already exposed a 4004.

Maybe heating the plastic till it's soft then using a knife will work (of course that depends on the type of plastic and I don't know if what Intel used on it)

@Drakonus101

2 жыл бұрын

It's a liquid epoxy resin flood technique to package the chip. Scraping of any nature will cut the wires or damage the ic Any method needs to melt or devolve the epoxy with out touching it with any hand tool

I was gonna suggest using an acid like muriatic or nitric but you beat me to the punch. Not the safest way to go but probably the "cleanest" in terms of destruction of the Die.

Next video: intel 4004 LN2 overclocking.

New intel's tech process intel 4 presents you 4004, after success of 80486 and pentium 4

Great attempt,…reminds me of @cpugalaxy channel. Would like to see a collab

Dubstep Chickens!!!

cant you find someone with a laser , and the scematisch, so the laser can just remove the black stuff??

5:39 ... the next twelve seconds made me stop the vid just to take it in.

count is about 2000, and size is 10 micro meter

Piranha solution would probably dissolve everything except the silicon die and gold wires, with less fumes than nitric. Be very careful with it.

ok,...........nice

Laser ablation will not kill the gold or silicon parts

So the first cpu came out 28 years before the first gpu

200€ for a 50 year old CPU, yeah that's a real Intel.

Are those Stargate symbols?

@der8auer-en

2 жыл бұрын

Yaaaaaa

WTF? We doing retro tech now? 👀👀👀

We gonna talk about the tattoos?

Do the Z80!

could ask a chemistry youtuber to help with the nitric acid

maybe with LN2 we could hit 500khz. excellent mips :0

@tobiwonkanogy2975

2 жыл бұрын

or maybe do a ti calculator , overclocking a xxxx TI sounds legit