With all this guitar company drama I think its important ro remember that Mr. Krabs sold spongebob for 62 cents to The Flying Dutchman

@fredtaylor9792

Жыл бұрын

Nothing about that lame show is important to remember.

@xamislimelight8965

Жыл бұрын

​@@fredtaylor9792 so, what you're saying is... F is for friends who do stuff together, U is for you and me. N is for anywhere, anytime at all, down here in the deep blue sea!

@xamislimelight8965

Жыл бұрын

He also tried to sell literal poison because he was too cheap to toss a rotten meat slab away lol

@smelltheglove2038

Жыл бұрын

Sponge-bob is harmless fun for kids. Who can get their panties in a bunch over sponge-bob? Reminds me of that time people wanted to ban paw patrol because one of the dogs was a cop. What a bunch of donkeys.

@peatmarshnotfound

Жыл бұрын

The secret ingredient is... nothing. Krabs is a business man after all.

If you hold a trademark then you have to be seen to be defending the trademark so that you can get it renewed. Can’t see what Fortin have done wrong here

@denizenofclownworld4853

Жыл бұрын

Making piss babies on reddit mad.

@BeersAndBeatsPDX

Жыл бұрын

Exactly. This is why companies like Nintendo are very litigious.

@WintermintP

Жыл бұрын

The real problem is that Fortin's trademark is pretty much invalid because AMC registered theirs first. They're trying to shove the original trademark holder away from their own trademark. This is yet another case of trademark bullying, and it's pretty much bound to work because Fortin is rather a large name.

@yakacm

Жыл бұрын

yeah I see it the same way.

@weschilton

Жыл бұрын

@@WintermintP Registration date doesn't matter... who holds the granted trademark DOES.

I suppose "rambunctious squash" could be a fitting name in case either party loses the trademark

@natethebesttt

Жыл бұрын

Underrated

@sweptinblack

Жыл бұрын

Sinister gourd

@chapa435ify

Жыл бұрын

Malicious Melon

@oopsydaizi3s824

Жыл бұрын

Id buy that in a heart beet

@anomalouswoof2554

Жыл бұрын

Is the name "Bad Gourdie" too much like that Wah pedal? 😅

I was in a more or less identical situation with my company name, about 10 years ago. Despite the link between my product and the competitor's product being very tenuous, and the names of our two products only being similar (both used the word 'Elephant'), my lawyer explained to me that even with everything going well for me in court, and what I would consider a clear win (which I did), then chances of me winning were 50/50. Essentially there is no hard and fast way to solve these issues. Happily, I threatened to go to the papers and forced my competitor to pay for my rebrand... but I went down the tubes within 12 months anyway. At least I managed a little bite back. This only happened because I applied for a trademark. If I had not bothered I suspect I would have never been noticed. Admittedly that isn't the case here as the competitor is already aware. These laws are supposed to protect companies from copycats, but what they often do it stifle competition in favor of the big boys.

I am extremely impressed with your thoroughness and balanced critical perspective on this matter. So refreshing in present times where division and creating anger is the goal to gain subscribers and revenue growth. Keep up the great work! I definitely see a strong future for you, with this type of investigative journalism.

AMC should offer to sell the 'Evil' trademark and change to Vile/Demon/Diabolical/Wicked/Unholy, chuck in a collaboration, distribution deal.... Everyone's happy. Good on Fortin for not acting like asshats.

@mattbridges8908

Жыл бұрын

This is the way

@sylvainnavarro5570

Жыл бұрын

I agree... to some extent. I think AMC should go with a more disruptive name: Friendly/Kind/Benevolent Pumpkin...

@hatempire

Жыл бұрын

A collab would be way better than a copyright claim. A lot of Fortin enthusiasts are into bands with creative and odd sounds (because of the brand association with Meshuggah, especially) and a noise maker like the machine from AMC would raise a lot of interest.

@cockysonuvaB

Жыл бұрын

a behind the scenes, out of court agreement for a penny per unit just to satisfy legal requirements (i.e. Fortin defending their intellectual property/ trademarks)

@ghostx697

Жыл бұрын

Vile Pumpkin™ is a better name anyway.

A lawyer sending something is absolutely a threat of legal action. That’s the whole point of using an attorney.

@daro9582

Жыл бұрын

No, it’s a way of saying that you have a lawyer at your side who is in position to resolve the situation at hand in favor of his client, there was no threat of any sort of lawsuit or official trademark dispute made, if Fortin wants to use the “Evil Pumpkin” name, they are required to defend it, overall I would even say that the lawyer’s message was very well voiced and seemed quite considerate, I don’t think this whole ordeal is really worth all that effort on both sides because it isn’t a unique name, it’s just a combination of two fairly common words of the English language, it’s for example just a pretty possible way one might describe a jack o lantern

I have to admit when I first saw the pedal/instrument I thought it was a mod designed to mimic the amp. But that impression lasted about 10 seconds.

Hope you feel better soon, thanks for checking this story out!

There's no question how this would play out in a US court: AMC would lose. They're making a usage argument, because they started using the name in January 2020, but that doesn't help them. Fortin have been using the mark in trade for a decade. AMC simply doesn't win on the "who used it first" argument. Fortin both used it first, and registered the mark in the US first. And, of course there's possibility of consumer confusion. I don't wish them any harm, but the only way they're going to be able to sell legally into the US would be by changing the name (or licensing use of the name in the US market from Fortin). Fortin can't let it slide without losing protections from cheap clones of their products coming in from China or whatever. Trademark must be consistently defended, or you lose it. They aren't the bad guy here; I'm not saying AMC is the bad guy, either, but they're being unrealistic and they're asking Fortin to give up the ability to defend their mark, which isn't fair to Fortin. The middle ground would be a cheap license to use the name, but I don't think Fortin is obligated to do that, or should do that if they'll be operating in a similar product category, as the trademark application indicates they will.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

Not really, next are my personal conclusions which not necessarily be correct: they made a mod for the same person, it is a SERVICE, not a product. The actual amp migth never been sold - at least they apparently haven’t provided any receipts for the purpose of this video as we did. Read article 903.01 of TMEP for what the date of first use is.

Trademarks are a first to file thing, like patents. It doesn't matter if AMC was using the name, if they failed to register it in the U.S. for use in the U.S. market. Fortin has a point, but this also leaves AMC free to use it wherever Fortin hasn't registered a trademark and cause them headaches there.

@killingmasheen

Жыл бұрын

@Future DeadguyIf you think cheering on war criminals makes you seem edgy, it doesn't. It just makes you look like an a**hole.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

The USA is first to use jurisdiction. And the very first amp apparently was a SERVICE - it hasn’t changed owners. Apparently no receipt has been provided by other party for the purpose of this video confirming the sales, only the link it existed. But then please read 903.01 of TMEP what the date of the first use is.

@semuta2752

Жыл бұрын

@@analogmusiccompany were the pumpkins you *first* sold not modified “synth drive” DS-1’s with LDR’s/switches/pots in place of the typical resistors and swapped cap values? As in you serviced DS-1’s (whether you took in customers first or self-sourced DS-1’s doesn’t matter)? Seeing the recent revisions are rad as hell, but do they still not count as service modifications since the starting product is not your design to begin with?

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

@@semuta2752 no in my understanding, because they have changed owners. We were buying them, modding and then selling. I don’t remember working on customer provided ds-1s rather than upgrading to the next version. And synth drive - if you are referring to JHS synth drive mod - no. Naming - I believe they were synth/fuzz something in this area.

@boshi9

Жыл бұрын

A patent can certainly be invalidated in the US if prior art is discovered, though the process can be rather expensive and time consuming for a tiny company to bother. I think it’s the same for trademarks.

This is really rich, considering that Fortin stole an entire circuit from Larry Grohmann for one of Fortin’s amps.

@TL-angzarr

Жыл бұрын

You cannot trademark a circuit and Larry doesn't have a patent on his circuit, as slimy as it is, it's not illegal.

@JohnWiku

Жыл бұрын

Scrolled down too far to find this.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

@@TL-angzarr so when I point that smth would not be illegal - this point is taken, but it will create confusion. When it is about the other party - it is not illegal and will not create confusion. An absolutely unbiased opinion and approach to the situation.

@TL-angzarr

Жыл бұрын

@@analogmusiccompany I don't follow what you are saying. Sorry I think something is lost in translation.

hes discovered the meta of "HUGE topic DRAMA"

@Elayaass

Жыл бұрын

too good to ignore I s'ppose

Irrelevant to the topic but the new LED backlights add so much to the videos

i agree w/ your assesment. no clear winner here. i see both sides arguments. thanks kdh!

I spent a day with Mike Fortin at his home years ago, when he was still in the beginning stages of getting his amp company off the ground. He was as kind and generous a person you're ever likely to meet. I would have been shocked if he was being unreasonable with a trade mark.

@ckhgator

Жыл бұрын

That happened to me too but then we watched Euphoria together and then we kissed 😳😅

@465marko

Жыл бұрын

@@ckhgator Sounds steamy. Did he steal any of your ideas, or was it just stolen moments of passion?

@batastrophic9762

Жыл бұрын

@@ckhgator did he let you play with his head? *the amp head I mean

@ilovecops5499

Жыл бұрын

FORTIN IS POURE EVEIL CANADIAN COMPANY. I WILL NEFER VOT FORTIN FOR PRESIDENTS OF CANDA ORR NEBRASKA!

I'm more surprised that Boss hasn't said anything about this.

@sammmbear

Жыл бұрын

It basically guarantees them sales with a voided warranty and is free advertising. Seems like it is a smarter move to just keep sales going than to have the builder move to a ds1 kit.

@weschilton

Жыл бұрын

For every pedal AM sells (and frankly I wouldn't buy one) Boss sells about 500,000 DS-1s I doubt they are worried.

I think that just changing the name in the US would probably settle the matter. Keep selling evil pumpkins in UK, but in the US their the (redacted) pumpkin or something. Maybe the name has a lot of meaning to AMC, but I don’t see what the big deal is with changing it.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

The meaning is that their attorney had no right to “request” me to drop the name based on fact they registered a TM is the USA. Please read his email - it is openly available. I would understand if he requested to change the name for the USA - it would be a different case. He wanted me to stop using EP name. Also he offended my country. Devil is in the details - it is easy to say we are big TM abusers. But it is fact twisting and victim blaming.

@Bovineicide

Жыл бұрын

I mean, when a company with Fortin's reputation has their lawyer contact you, that's going to be viewed as a threat lol

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

@@Bovineicide and "requests" what he has no grounds to request. Don't use the name. Let me know you will or you will not. Very friendly manner indeed.

@465marko

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, just call it the "Smashing" pumpkin, or something, that way you're sure to avoid any conflicts.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

@@465marko it is ok, but why we are keep talking about me the whole time. Why no comments on the lawyers request being the ones he couldn’t and shouldn’t have addressed us? In particular stop using the name? Why?

5:39 that second sentence put a smile on my face, that means they're watching your content and know what and who they're dealing with

American guitar geek here. I come for the accent, I stay for the info…and the “Bye-Bye” at the very end. Love it! Makes my day.

Ahh yes, avoid confusion, the cornerstone of the musical products industry.

I feel AMC should just rename the pedal to Dark Pumpkin, Bad Pumpkin or something to that effect. Or Fortin and AMC should come to some sort of licensing agreement which could actually be quite beneficial to both parties.

@circleprex

Жыл бұрын

They should find another orange vegetable or fruit instead ... I'm pretty sure they were aware of what they were doing, they're playing on the fact they're allowed to do everything without an equal punishment that any western company could face

@WintermintP

Жыл бұрын

No. Fortin is the one in the wrong because AMC were the ones that made the first steps to getting the trademark registered. This is yet another case of trademark bullying where the original trademark holders get shafted away from their own trademarks due to bogus infringement claims like this.

@DeanBothaMusic

Жыл бұрын

@@WintermintP I get your point seeing as Fortin had 10 + years to register the Evil Pumpkin trademark. I'm sure between the two companies they'll figure something out. We'll have to wait and see.

@WintermintP

Жыл бұрын

@@DeanBothaMusic No. This is no different from Monster Energy. Simply because they have plenty of money to throw around for legal stuff they singlehandedly shut down over half the similarly named companies and products in the world, even the ones that existed long before their trademarks existed. Even this situation now is guaranteed to play out the same way. Fortin will just be able to lay down the law just like that simply because they're a large name company and AMC is just going to end up force-shut down. This only shows how much of a joke this whole planet really is.

@weschilton

Жыл бұрын

@@WintermintP It doesn't matter when an application was filled out... it only matters to whom the trademark was granted. if Fortin truly holds the granted trademark, then its theirs. End of story.

Thank you for taking the time to provide a well researched, fair, and balanced view into this. I consider Mike and Rick friends, both have been very generous with their time and knowledge in furtherance of my brand. Protecting your brand/IP is something most of us do to keep putting food on the table, and their approach to this situation was in my opinion was even handed, amiable and not a threat in any way. As always YMMV.

@NolenBrown

Жыл бұрын

Would a kind and reasonable person send a cease and desist to a one man operation making pedals in a war zone? And then not acknowledge the company and not reach out to this person for an actual conversation? When you see this company post “sorry for the delay, a missile barrage nearby knocked out our power. Thank you for your patience.” you’d think Mike would reach out in support? Offer to send parts and supplies since they both love a good Evil Pumpkin? This is a spineless and unnecessary act of greed. Could you forward the above to Mike for me? Thanks.

Similar case with Budweiser beer. Two worldwide renown companies selling beer under same name since 1939. The court eventually decided

When it comes to intellectual property, I've always felt that possessions only weigh you down...

As a future patent attorney, I don't see anything wrong with Fortin's operation, and it's actually quite correct. Such warning letters are a normal practice among entrepreneurs before entering the civil road. Trademark protection is territorial in nature (similarly to a patent), i.e. if trademark protection started and operated in the USA, then someone using it, e.g. in Canada, does not infringe. The fact that AMC claims to have its trademark in Ukraine is irrelevant here. It sells their productc marked "evil pumpkin" in the USA. If Fortin has a trademark there, they have every right to sue AMC for trademark infringement. The fact that AMC doesn't sell its products there personally doesn't matter. If Fortin takes legal action in this case and files a lawsuit for trademark infringement and sues AMC for infringement of the "Fortin. Evil Pumpkin" trademark and the court upholds this lawsuit, then, for example, AMC goods marked with the disputed logo may be seized through customs at the border and will never reach their US recipients. I would suggest AMC change the name of their product, remove any kind of similarity to words "evil" and "pumpkin" and thats aboute it.

The Telecaster and SG are household names in the homes of guitarists and musicians the world over, yet due to cease requests, they had the names changed from what they were originally produced as: the Broadcaster and the updated Les Paul model respectively. If it's good, like I'm sure the AMC Evil Pumpkin is, the world will know it, no mater what they call it. My vote is Ghoulish Gourd.

All I'm gonna say is companies have had to change logos and product names for different markets for decades. Look at Sega alone, they had to rename the Mega Drive to Genesis in the US because of an existing trade mark by Mega Drive Systems and Sega had to change the color of the Dreamcast logo to avoid trademark issues with a company in Europe. It's an unfortunate situation but part of doing business. If you don't enforce your trademark then you run the risk of losing ownership of it.

@guitarnerdjoey1192

Жыл бұрын

I was literally thinking this as watching it. Heck, in Australia we didnt get Starfox 64 as starfox already had a trademark. We got Lylat Wars instead. Very common for things to differ from region to region.

Amc said he's also delivering pumpkins to the USA, and if that came after fortin evil pumpkin announcement could be seen as directly referencing the fortin product

There's an emotional appeal to "teh wholesome ukrainerinos" in this argument that I really don't like. At the end of the day, fortin has a good and strong case against them. Amc really should just change the name, and maybe switch to a standard hammond enclosure just to avoid another potential case

One of my friends is a copyright lawyer and holy hell...as if national copyright lawwasn't confusing enough. International copyright is downright insane.

Straight up, if I went to a guitar shop and saw an orange pedal called Evil Pumpkin, I would FULLY expect it to be a clone of the amp's preamp, no matter what company was making it

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

And if you put the Evil Pumpkin in Google you will straight see many pages of AMC Evil Pumpkin before the amp. And same can be told - that to many people Evil Pumpkin is the AMC product which they saw, tried or own and not a non existing amplifier.

Ookok. But what's it all got to do with Rob Chapman and how can we blame him for it?

You guys are missing one huge part of all this ! The fact "AMC" is selling a used boss pedal and no one mentions Roland at all😅

For the record, Rick F, Mike Fortin's attorney, is the MAN!!

This sort of legal wrangling is not new and pretty common in the music space, We have today the Fender Telecaster that was originally named the Broadcaster but fender got served a cease and desist from Gretsch who already had a name trademark on a drum set called the Broadkaster. Legally Fortin has the upper hand here. They have the filing they also have a much older usage claim.

The fact that Fortin can prove they've been using the 'Evil Pumpkin' name for so many years stands them in good stead, in my opinion. I don't see how Analog Music can argue their way around that fact.

@chriswareham

Жыл бұрын

It doesn't matter how long Fortin have been using the name - it's only protected once they trademark it, which they only did after AMC had already sold (and trademarked in Ukraine) their own product.

@mraycgz

Жыл бұрын

This is exactly why copyright is a thing It set a precedent to who and when. It doesn’t matter and can be Impossible to prove what happens before

@chriswareham

Жыл бұрын

A copyright is quite distinct from a trademark, at least under US law, and applicable to "artistic" creations (books, songs, and so on) rather than a brand or product name. Then there's the concept of "trade dress", which is where you can protect the unique appearance of something - like the shape of certain parts of a Rickenbacker bass guitar for example.

@bozwellification

Жыл бұрын

@@chriswareham It’s not that simple. Prior use can play a role in the analysis but the burden is on the prior user to prove as much.

@chriswareham

Жыл бұрын

@@bozwellification I agree that's it's not simple - as KDH says in his video, there's usually a lot of complex details in these kind of situations. Prior art is a factor, but it's all moot until a trademark is registered, and in this case Fortin can easily claim prior art on an amplifier but not a pedal (or weird theremin based on one).

I once reverb sold a very expensive pedal to the owner of a famous boutique pedal company. The pedal cost insane amounts to ship with insurance bc of its worth and size. Knowing full well that I’m a private person and not a business, the buyer/owner goes not the sound I want I want a refund…I was out almost $150 from shipping and insurance just bc this pedal builder wanted to be pompous. I’ll never buy from them again and this seems to be a lot of their attitudes imo. I have better luck with big box companies anyway I despise most overpriced boutique crap. In short I paid $150 for a very well renown builder to tear apart my pedal copy the insides then he asked for a refund. Human trash cans.

@smelltheglove2038

Жыл бұрын

What was the company so I know not to bother with their gear? I hate this kind of behavior.

@vintagetubeamplifiers

Жыл бұрын

Name names or your comment is useless to the rest of us.

@MothmanCold

Жыл бұрын

@@smelltheglove2038 I won’t say but they have very very cool designs on the pedals and there’s a lot of them out there. Sweetwater sells these “ devices”

@iansavage2382

Жыл бұрын

@@vintagetubeamplifiers if they dont name ans shame. Just assume they are after attention.

@MothmanCold

Жыл бұрын

@@iansavage2382 or read the other comment how about? Pretty sure with that attitude you have you can fig it out.

i really cant see how Fortin is the bad guy here. AMC knew what they were doing when naming that pedal, and are now poorly attempting to damage control. There's absolutely 0% chance they werent trying to cash out on an already established name...

I think Fortin handle this respectively. But I also understand AMC's position. KDH is spot on. No winners. If AMC is reading this, it would be cool if they just changed their u.s. distributing pedals to EV-L Pumpkin. Or, EVL-P, Kinda like a Boss style title. Like DS-1 or RV -5. That's free advice. You're welcome.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I am reading. My point is that the lawyer “requested” to drop the name completely. You can read the letter. He is not talking about the USA version, nor he is talking about changing the name for the USA market. Secondly I am open to discuss with Mike even still - but publicly, so that there are no under table agreements present. Finally their lawyer representing the company as he wrote wrote THE Ukraine which is a major offense - it is googlable quite easily. I wrote them - guys, why are you doing, why lawyer? They haven’t responded till now. People asked to comment (I am not talking about the offensive comments) - just comment - they blocked them and wiped all. My position is why are they think they are entitled to act this way? Why should I drop the name for good only based on fact they’ve TM in the USA. Please read his email - the devil is in the details.

@MaTTheWish

Жыл бұрын

@@analogmusiccompany I think I understand. Although I did not read the emails, and am not fully informed. Maybe a mediator would be helpful at this point, someone neutral. But as of now, I think it's totally fair to sell on Reverb. I don't think AMC did anything wrong at all. Why was a lawyer involved in the first correspondence. I see what you mean. It seems like 2 companys were both developing a product around the same time in other countries. I hope you both can have a satisfying conclusion. Good luck.

@guitarnerdjoey1192

Жыл бұрын

@@analogmusiccompany Their lawyer was involved because under US trademark law they MUST take legal action to defend a trademark or they risk losing the trademark. They must be able to show defending that trademark. If they didnt, and it was lost to them, then literally ANYONE in the US could file for it. I wouldn't take offense at it, or try and read further into it to create drama. It simple is what it is, and they have taken the exact right step.

@9:35 Yeah it does, it falls under the same trademark class. If he was selling jewelry called Evil Pumpkin it would be fine as they are different class (14) vs Musical Instruments (15 (I think these would fall under it)) Also as Ukraine is part of WIPO, AMC's counter with point 2 is irrelevant as Ukraine has to honour the US law and established trademarks, essentially it should go to court and the judge would decide who is more impacted by the confusion. Also AMC seems to be thinking that because he started before this would be similar to prior art which is used in Patents. I think you are bang on in your assessment at the end.

Great video! So let me get this straight: Fortin owns the trademark in the US? So what’s the problem? AMC could make the exact same pedal with another name, claim it to be an US-import version and keep the Evil Pumpkin for the pedals sold in the rest of the world? Right? Greetings from the Swedish west-coast.

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

The first problem is their attorney hasn’t “requested” what you telling. He requested to STOP USING the Evil Pumpkin - something a lot are trying to not to notice. The whole initial “request” was plain wrong. He didn’t care that in Ukraine the Evil Pumpkin is under protection. Why must I stop using it? Change for the USA - that would be a valid request. If it came from company and not an attorney right away - we wouldn’t have all this mess. But a lot are trying to omit this by telling we must stop, drop, change or even proceed to insult our Evil Pumokin, me personally and my coutry and fellow countryman as you can see from some comments here. And now when I have to learn all the legal stuff I start to learn that it is quite possible that their Evil Pumpkin may be a subject to CONTEST. Because they haven’t provided any receipt to KDH as we did. An their TM can be contested till August 2025. It is not set in stone.

I'd interpret a communication from a law firm as a threat of legal action. Because of the implication.

@castleanthrax1833

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely.

@WearyKirin

Жыл бұрын

I'd agree it seems kinda naive to treat it as a polite request with no threat implied

At this point, it's fair to say that you're the best guitar-related journalist (yeah, this video is a great journalistic work, for real) these days. Great investigative work, saw a lot of details and a huge attention to the narrative, everything carefully crafted, that I remember learning during my years studying journalism in college. Wouldn't be surprised if you say that you studied something similar as well. Also, since you said you were under the weather, all the best for your recovery, hope your health is as better condition now.

This is why I've been a subscriber for a while now. You cover things well and also you really did the best Yngwie video ever 🤣😂👍🏽👍🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽

Point of order at 7:58 - the confusion wouldn't necessarily be that someone would mistake a modded pedal for an amp head, more that if I walked in to a store and saw an Evil Pumpkin amp and an Evil Pumpkin pedal, I'd almost certainly think they were complementary products from the same company.

@weschilton

Жыл бұрын

Exactly what I thought

Many people won’t understand this statement, but as someone with their name on US IP, when you as a company pay for and go through the due diligence to be granted IP or trademark/copyrights, you have secured the right to do what Fortin is. No matter if you like their reasoning or not, they pursued and paid for that protection and it should be followed. We see this a lot in the states where international companies will sell and slip into the sales streams of the US in particular while violating IP/Tom’s etc and it’s unfortunate because to the companies that attempted to secure this protection, it can feel like it was a waste of time or money when people don’t abide and play within the rules. But, all is fair in love and war, so kill or be killed - if the little guys can slip in and work around it to get their sales I suppose people can say kudos to them for hustling.

Always appreciate you trying to see it from both sides.

As a trademark attorney I can assure that Fortin is in their right. AMC should focus on beating the Russians.

Loving the pyro style video title for the engagement lmao

General comment - thank you for what you do. The manner in which you present topics is fair and balanced and very well researched, and as a result very appealing for me to listen / watch. One of my favorite channels, I’m a happy subscriber! Cheers!

It is very easy to end a who was first to commercially use debate - them to provide a receipt showing date and name of the product to KDH. They haven’t provided it for the purpose of this video, but sent a KZread link instead and it creates a confusion between “the use as me, you and all the people would understand it” and “the first commercial use as the law puts it”. Do they have a proof of a COMMERCIAL use of this product (sales of GOODS, and not modding the amp for the same person which is PROVIDING SERVICES)? Why this confusion tactics is still being used?

And Winners are the Lawyers !

@finnmcginn9931

Жыл бұрын

As always.

In the US, the date the trademark was registered is less important than how long the business has been using the mark for trade. So AMC would lose and definitely could not afford to fight in US court, so they would have to default. I’m sure they did not mean to infringe or harm Fortin, but that is irrelevant in the eyes of the law

Well done on a very unbiased and open perspective of both parties’ points of view both for and against holding the name and so on. Gotta say that having seen this I do kinda feel that it would be far easier for AMC to change their piece to “the nasty pumpkin” or something, they are a small boutique builder, their market knows where they are and their product isnt tied to a famous player and all the emotion and nostalgia that sits with that, also they dont hold the trademark at all and do seem to be courting US distro.

The video clip at the end says Evil Pumpkin in the title, but the amp itself doesn't say that as far as I can see, so I think that also shows some gray space to be investigated.

I think it was unfortunate that AMC made a whole public display of the matter, when it seems to be quite a minor issue. Maybe make a US version called The Ghazalah Pumpkin

Only win is, like many others I'm sure, I have never heard of either product till now.

Still getting the new meshuggah… i’ll post a short in 2-3 months, we’ll see if the standby works this time around

Marshall should ask Fortin to stop selling modified Marshall's, lol

Fortin’s been fairly tame and measured. Hopefully it gets handled outside court without any drama. I doubt that these things will cause any real confusion because when it comes to all things Fortin, many are also looking specifically for the Fortin brand name along with the product title. It’s unlikely that a future Fortin Evil Pumpkin pedal will be mistaken for this particular device.

Thank you KDH 🤘

This is a reminder that BK will do it your way

@tonypaella

Жыл бұрын

I prefer McDonald's

Same thing happened between fender and soldano over the hot rod soldano amplifier and the hot rods series fender amplifiers. Fender owns the trademark, but they made a friendly and mutual agreement. Of course there was no social media back then, and there wasn't any drama between parties involved. Hopefully they can work something out.

I can see fortins side.. cause SOME people may think .. why buy the amp when i can get a similar sound with the pedal.. people may assume it will mimic the fortin sound.. the pedal company should just change the name to EPG 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ people who want it will know what it means

This is despicable. FA should be offering to be a US distributor and support a 1 person operation making pedals in a war zone. Maybe a collaboration, an offer to send supplies or parts? When you see things like "sorry there's been a little delay since the last missile barrage knocked out power. Thank you for your patience" getting posted you would think that there would be some thought before sending a cease and desist. Mike cannot be a "kind and reasonable" guy if he lets this continue without apologizing. Be a compassionate human being and support a small business.

If it goes to court the lawyers win.

There has to be a way to settle this peacefully.

Good on Fortin, they have the right to defend their product. Same how Suhr, Bogner, Fender and many other have done. It’s business. I hope the best for AMC and Fortin.

Ichabod Charles Brown Crane the III here, as a Lawyer representing my clients, actual pumpkins, I'd like to put forth the statement that my clients are not evil or malicious, simply misunderstood in the holiday menace market. That being said, they should just play nice and slap their company names in front of the Evil Pumpkin descriptor as a way of differentiation and just call it a draw.

I have to say, I’m leaning in favor or Fortin here. If AMC’s only argument is “we were using the name before you trademarked it”, then Fortin’s retort that they started using the name long before both Fortin’s trademark and AMC’s first use is perfectly reasonable. So AMC can’t even say they were using the name first. Finally, didn’t the name come about as a sort of nickname for a set of modifications done by Mike Fortin? I’m not saying that alone gives him ownership of the name but I think Fortin has a much better claim to it than AMC ever has. Fortin’s initial letter to AMC was nothing but respectful and I think it’s ridiculous that some people perceived this as some big company siccing their legal team on a poor, defenseless self-starter. That doesn’t appear to be the case at all but some people have a wildly out-of-whack injustice detector that immediately reads “code red” no matter the situation.

I just checked out the videos from Killertonetexas, and that particular Evil Pumpkin anyway sounds a lot like the Mesa / Marshall mods that Hermansson Amplification does, it's amazing

IMO Fortin did nothing wrong. Their lawyers are just doing their job, and doing it quite well and reasonably.

AMC should change the name. They could just paint another loop on the "P", and call it the Orange Bumpkin. Fortin shouldn't have a problem with that, and I think it's a cuter name for the synth instrument it now is.

Ur channel is good dude. Just getting straight to the dam point. Love it

If I'm AMC and Fortin, I would team up. They're both small companies, they're both boutique brands, why not sell the Evil Pumpkin pedal alongside the Evil Pumpkin amp as a companion product of sorts. I bet they'd sell a ton. Everyone makes money, both brands gain visibility, and eventually, when the partnership runs its course, AMC can do a name change or simply discontinue the pedal. There. Solved it.

@elderlyjew5210

Жыл бұрын

Honestly if I were amc I'd attempt this, something about the amc guy tells me he won't do this. Just a hunch

Okay... The two most important aspects of trademark, as far as US courts care about it, are likelihood of confusion and prior defense or litigation. Neither company actually has defended the trademark in court, so no real precedent there (the nice letter asking AMC to stop using the branding doesn't count as litigation). Confusion is important here, and from this standpoint it matters absolutely ZERO PERCENT whether there is a "tabletop musical device" named under the Fortin trademark, since the AMC device was once a guitar pedal (which is covered under trademark), and is still easily recognizable for what it once was. That's all the confusion needed for Fortin to bring a case (in a US court, which AMC will likely never see the inside-of). If a casual customer could become confused in any way that would result in his not knowing there were two competing brands with the same name, then the potential for harm exists. It doesn't even have to result in lost sales, since harm can be made reputationally (for instance, if the AMC product was proven to explode when plugged in, Fortin could then find themselves wrongly saddled with a reputation for exploding devices). Take even a step back from that. Imagine you had two companies both calling a music-related product a "Stratocaster." Would it matter to the courts that the company not named Fender in this scenario was not selling a guitar with that name, but instead was selling a glass bottle slide? Of course not. Because both items are being sold under the same name in the same milieu (musical instruments). As long as that is the case, the potential for confusion exists. This is why you only ever see two items sharing a similar name when they are miles apart in terms of application. For instance, Fender sells a guitar called a Mustang. Ford manufactures a car called a Mustang. Gibson sells a guitar called a Firebird... you get where I am going with this. Fortin definitely has a case for blocking AMC sales in the US. They can't really effectively do anything about sales in other countries, until they can establish a legal presence (or precedent) in those countries. That said, AMC is correct in saying that they are not selling in the US, since they lack a presence here. Third parties bringing in devices purchased on Reverb do not constitute that presence, since the business location is the place where the business is registered (Ukraine in this case, and laws that allow for certain US states to collect taxes on internet sales do not change this, and likely AMC would never sell enough units to have to bother with filing). And the idea of those shipments being seized by customs is laughable. All AMC has to do is mark the shipment FOB (free on board) which any shipment made through Reverb from Europe is bound to be, anyway (or similar terms). That means custody will have transferred to the buyer as soon as the courier picked it up, which means Fortin would be asking customs to seize LEGAL product that LEGALLY BELONGS to the person waiting to receive it. Customs is not going to interfere with a legal delivery on a legal purchase of a legal item that costs a couple hundred bucks, or whatever, on the say-so of an aggrieved small-potatoes amplifier company. Why? Aside from the obvious, because trademark is not a criminal matter unless it's done as part of intentional counterfeiting. And Fortin's own letter, and the responses they've received prove they know that is not the case. See... none of this was tedious or overly complex. So what should be done? Fortin should not worry about this until it actually becomes a genuine concern (clue: IT IS NOT; AMC is too small and too specific and too remote to be a threat; worse, Fortin's overreaching lawyer is charging them more money per hour than this will ever be worth). Or AMC should just change their name. Who gives a crap.

If Fortin did absolutely nothing about AMC, this would create a legal precedent allowing anybody to use Evil Pumpkin.

Nice video. Wait until Disney sees the Darth Pumpkin...

It seems to me that the trademark/copyright issue is coincidental rather than purposeful, and since they both make products that are complimentary rather than competitive, it would be super cool if they did something together, like co-branding, a package with a % of sales going to Ukraine, etc. Plenty of opportunity for both to come out ahead!

@neildeakin4454

Жыл бұрын

I was thinking along the same lines.

@465marko

Жыл бұрын

And they should take a photo standing back-to-back, like unlikely buddies that had to pair up for the common good as they come to learn and grow by adapting to each other's ways!

@analogmusiccompany

Жыл бұрын

From our side it is an absolute coincidence.

@neildeakin4454

Жыл бұрын

@@analogmusiccompany How about renaming your pedal 'The pedal formerly known as the Evil Pumpkin"?

@weschilton

Жыл бұрын

@@neildeakin4454 Or just paint it with a cool trademarked 'evil pumpkin' graphic and don't give it a name at all.

4:50: the first communication on the issue came not from a company, but from a lawyer. If you get lawyers involved in a (potential) dispute *at all*, that is *in effect* a threat of a lawsuit. Otherwise, why involve shysters at all, with all the expense involved?

A trademark issue in music where both arguments are valid????

If Fortin has a years long brand established name (when someone says "Evil Pumpkin" I immediately think of FORTIN), in the USA Fortin could actually wrest the name away from AMC even if AMC was using it first.

If AMC ships one to the US call it the D-Evil Pumpkin and that should be good enough. Also to US brands you should trademark any audio tool with the US and the EU as well as South Korea & Japan this will pretty much have you covered worldwide. AMC could make a ton of cash simply through buying some Red or Purple paint, call the US version a special edition with a name tweak and paint them, guitar players are just about dumb enough to think its different.

Another very good piece. Keep up the good work.

I love kdh.proper arguments on both sides

Fortin doesn't deserve the hate ... you have to protect a trademark or you can lose it. They weren't overly agro about it. AMC should just ask them if a minor change in name would be enough to mark it separate in the US ... they could easily work something out.

As always, KDH cuts through the noise and nonsense and presents the situation at hand with no bias and factual observations. Well done

Seems like the toxic people trying to blow up a big issue as usual. With so many companies issuing pedals they mimic their amps,i won't be surprised that a pedal with the same name could be linked to an amp with the same name Great reporting, no wonder companies are starting to trust you enough to give you a statement. Keep up the good work!

It kinda sticks because they both started off life as modified products.

I mean it's clear that this company is using that name to build association with the Fortin amp/tone/sound. That's the only reason they would have even named it that.

Two companies in a pissing match over products that are modified versions of other products. I’ve been modifying pumpkins into Evil Pumpkins since I was a child. Maybe I need to trademark Jack O Lantern for guitar purposes. Obviously the pedal company isn’t trying to scam people thinking they are buying a Fortin product. The whole fiasco sucks all around I think. Fortin was pretty sure a small pedal builder wouldn’t fight and they’ve successfully defended their copyright for whoever that impresses . What if Marshall sent its lawyers after Fortin like we aren’t going to make a modified plexi and neither are you ? If I was AMC I’d rename the pedal The Evil Fortune Cookie Or Evil Fartin Evil Fort In Fun Unit or something, because I’m petty like that. Evil 4Tin maybe ?

Hey KDH! Have you ever heard of or tried out the Ibanez TN120 Thermion amplifier? I bought about fifteen years ago (4x12" cabinet with Celestion Vintage 30s included) and I used it for many years since. Crazy good sounding amp IMO. If you'd like to do a review on it I can maybe have a look at the cost of sending it to you? (just the amp lol - the cabinet would be crazy expensive!!). I think the head weighs around 25KG and the cabinet around 50KG. I think you'd really like it! Let me know!

@TheSultan69

Жыл бұрын

This is really cool!! Your excitement to share the amp and generosity to let the rest of this channel find out about it is very wholesome. Have a good day buddy!!

Nice, thank you for sharing this info so we can form an educated opinion!

IANAL but courts in America do take note of your lack of defense of your trademarks in the past allowing other entities to argue that you should lose the right to them.

I agree that there wouldn't be a clear winner, but I think that everybody would lose if it did. As a small builder operating out of the Ukraine, I imagine that AMC would stop selling their pedal until they can file a new trademark in the UK and probably file one in the US for whatever the name would be. As a result, I feel US customers lose, AMC lose, and fortin's reputation has already taken a hit from simply asking if AMC can do a name change- imagine if they actually filed! I think in all likelihood AMC might do what I'd mentioned in the interim and just change the name when everything is set up, that way (most) everybody is happy

Very fair and balanced video KDH. Great job my man. Obviously all of the people who are slamming Fortin have never owned a business, intellectual property or invested any of their time and energy building anything. If they did, they would understand that Fortin has every right to be dicks (which they haven’t … yet) . There was never a threat and that was probably the most polite C&D I’ve ever read. I also have a hard time believing that all this support that this company is getting in regards to its pedal, isn’t simply because Ukraine is the social media flavor of the year.

@justinlast2lastharder749

Жыл бұрын

I'm the opposite, I'm Anti-Ukraine. Have been for a long time. Knowing dude is Ukrainian, Fuck that Guy Team Fortin. It's only the Flavor of the Year for the Woke Crowd. Sadly, too many of the Music World are Default Leftists because the Religious Right was so horrible in the 70s and 80s. They don't realize it's exactly what the Left has become...so of course they all support Ukraine without realizing it's quite possibly the most Corrupt Country in the World and is the Capital of Sexual Exploitation in the World and has a disturbing amount of Naaaazis...fuck that place.

@hogie1259

Жыл бұрын

@@justinlast2lastharder749 Hear that? That's the sound of a muthfuggin mic drop!

@pedromartinazzo5036

Жыл бұрын

Seems like this AMC dude is trying to pull a publicity stunt with all this Evil Pumpkin mumbo jumbo, Fortin also isnt a big company or anything and is in their right.

The Analog Music Company's Evil Pumpkin is an awesome pedal. They're also doing it tough and deserve our respect. I wouldn't plan on supporting Fortin again in the future after this.

If Fortin is the company who is “bigger”, I have to say they handled them selves very well and I tend to agree with them.

If I get a mail from a lawyer asking me to do a change cause of trademark issues, I see that as threat 100% but I understand what you mean, the lawyer didn’t escalate and was polite, but still a lawyer which probably did that to have some proof in the ongoing battle.

@tdu5777

Жыл бұрын

That's because it is a threat. He's either being naive or just being silly not acknowledging that.

@castleanthrax1833

Жыл бұрын

Yes, I took it as such as well. All verbal gymnastics aside, it seems clear that Fortin intends on defending their tm, so the polite wording of the "request" operates twofold, as "evidence of defense" and "things will heat up if you don't stop".