Good evening lovelies - This video is coming a little later than planned after Mike was dealing with family stuff last week. In this video we'll be doing a deep dive into the recent Ultimate RWF drama in FF14 and the issue of addons - we've put this into context not only for FF players but also if you're playing other MMOs like WoW. And yes we're aware of the Gshade drama of course - Mike should be recording that tonight or in the morning so we'll have that up for you as well very soon. - Chris

@NachtDerSins

Жыл бұрын

@@NubsWithGuns I believe he got a world 1st back during Cataclysm, but its been so long my memory is failing me too

@RessG

Жыл бұрын

Just like what Preach said, the game design to not depend on 3rd part tools and also there's no PTR. Unlike most players, FFXIV story isn't my cup of tea, but I often come back when there's a new raid. When Yoshi-P begging players to not using 3rd, I understand why he did it. Even back in Final CoB (2014) Turn 1-4 people also using this kind of mod. Somebody in LS (FFXIV Chat Group) who just cleared FCoB T4 linked the screenshot to show the mod. Using smaller boss model, Dive bomb marker and Back/Side target circle mod, make it like 5x easier. I was like WTF, since then I never do serious race again and just do it for fun. It's 2023 and there's people who still surprise about "Some of Top Raider" using these kind of tools. Note: Players will always have different opinions about which 3rd party tools is a cheat or not in FFXIV.

@Keneset88

Жыл бұрын

This is well put Chris and Mike! The clip with Xeno was just cake to top it off. However, this goes without saying Mike's take and now his weighted experience after playing this game made this such a brilliant piece. One of the many things I do not miss about wow were the addons. Patch after patch, fix after hotfix, it was just too stressful especially for my brother's computer to take on. Whereas when I log in via my console, I have no problem. at. all. Even when I do get a PC and put XIV in there, addons will not be on there. I will happily play it as is, maybe add those chat bubbles? (kidding) Cheating, no matter what, on any console, game or even board games for that matter is not tolerable at all. You cheat, you lose, I mean in their case they won but still any form or way to get someone over them unfairly is just not worth it. I truly hope in the next patch cycle which will be the conclusion of Pandemonium where there will be a legitimate world first stream I can continue to acknowledge their victory just like Kindred's. Watching those streams were quite something as I saw each phase and how they were drawn out by design! Thank you Mike, and thank you Chris for this video! See you on the next one!

@danielmac9498

Жыл бұрын

I haven't watched your content in forever since I just don't play MMOs anymore. I'm glad I stayed subbed because this video was fantastic. I love these ones where you do your homework and explain drama in a concise way. Keep it up brother.

@ChouhouinNeko

Жыл бұрын

then we literally had the gshade darma a few days ago where the maker turned it into malware to restart peoples pcs which lead to it getting removed from github

I can understand Yoshi-P stance what point is there if there ultimates changes into an plugin fiesta like in WOW might aswell not do them.

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

the encounter should be a test of the players skill at playing the game, not their skill at installing an addon.

@FeelsGouda

Жыл бұрын

@@Shiirow I mean, I am not disagreeing, but I think you misrepresent what addons actually do. Taking WoW as an example: sure, addons help you out, but they still do not play the game for you. Blizzard became quite adept at creating group content that is tough to beat, even with the help of addons.

You can't ask for harder content then complain it's too hard and go on to cheat to get world first

@tengille

14 күн бұрын

A year late, but that's all some of the biggest FFXIV streamers seem to do. They try to justify mods (and not just cosmetic or QoL) because something isn't "fun" or its "too hard". There's this weird entitlement with people that are _too online_ where content must be for them, they must like it, or else. And there's some weird hypocrisy of course in the FFXIV community. Say something is too hard when its ultimate, its ok to use mods. Say something is too hard when you're a mega casual player, who probably doesn't play even 10 hours / week because you have life or just want to do other things.... you're chastised, in a community that's supposed to be super helpful and welcoming, its very off-putting at times.

Very cool apology. "We're very sorry, but it was actually these other players' fault we cheated and also you weren't supposed to find out :( "

@SunniestAutumn

Жыл бұрын

Forbidding addons may be silly to me, but if it's the rules, it's the rules.

@morteaux3662

Жыл бұрын

I am stealing because other people are probably stealing too, it's not my fault, ya know (xD) ....

@kage8725

Жыл бұрын

One of the few times I think being reductive is substantially better.

@Icycrits

Жыл бұрын

@@SunniestAutumn It's not silly at all. If add-ons are allowed, it will just be a constant arms race between game developer and add-on developer to make the most powerful add-ons possible. Echo pays people substantial amount of money to make powerful weakauras that give them a significant edge over the competition, and part of the appeal of XIV's world first is that ANYONE skilled and dedicated enough can go and compete on equal footing and potentially get world first. No millions of in-game currency for gear upgrades. No split runs. No RNG. That's what makes it so exciting.

@EyeQue62

Жыл бұрын

@@SunniestAutumn I can't beat an MMO fight without addons (I'm not talking about addons that are qol or visual, but I suppose even those cross over into a grey area sometimes). Obviously WoW is your main MMO of choice. I personally don't understand the mentality of using addons to help with mechanics etc.

Yoshi P: Maybe it's a skill issue

@Hornswroggle

Жыл бұрын

To be fair: his team goes to great efforts to prove that it actually IS a skill issue.

@Hawkenwhacker

Жыл бұрын

It's a savage remark but very true. Get good kid.

@GarredHATES

2 ай бұрын

Addons reduce the skill requirement. Man up.

So the most obvious thing about unnamed's clear that is most daunting... is how far ahead of progress they were vs all other teams. People underplay the zoom hack but ignore the very obvious advantage it actually had.

@op4000exe

Жыл бұрын

Information is king, I cannot even begin to name the number of wars and skirmishes in history that were won or lost due to pressence or lack of information. It's not just slightly important, it's probably the most important element.

@brand6577

Жыл бұрын

if they dont like it they should add an anticheat

@maybeitsyou1317

Жыл бұрын

@@brand6577 Or they could just ban and publicly shame cheaters. That's way more fun.

@omegaxtrigun

Жыл бұрын

@@brand6577 That would add more inadvertent problems, like how anticheats tend to be pretty invasive. A better solution is to properly punish people for cheating so people will be discouraged from doing it.

@op4000exe

Жыл бұрын

@@brand6577 Anticheats probably won't work, anticheats check for certain pieces of code or processes running, first of all they require a decent bit of RAM and processing power (a singular lost frame in an encounter like that can lead to a gameover), but they're also circumventable. If you want to avoid stuff like this, the only really effective methodology is to ban it outright, scorched earth tactics.

The whole "it's Westerners creating third party tools and using them!" bit is hilarious. JP created most of the addons in FFXI that weren't supposed to be used. JP players created a lot of the tools and plugins used by FFXIV players. That was the most unbelievably BS copout excuse. Japan has always been rife with use of cheats, across all genres. That's not to denigrate them specifically. That happens everywhere. But one of them pretending to point at "the West" and say that they only cheated because westerners cheat is some Grade A bullcrap.

@Frankthetank302

Жыл бұрын

Exactly!!!!!!

@Reshapable

Жыл бұрын

Cowardice knows no borders

@heatrayzvideo3007

Жыл бұрын

I love Japan but they are really racist

@Manzanahh

Жыл бұрын

lol JP got jokes

@Direwolf1618

Жыл бұрын

Such a load of horse shit trying to blame westerners for their own failings.

High end raiders "the content is too easy" High end raiders *cheats to clear the content

@Jelloshotmod2

Жыл бұрын

"B-but everyone is using them. " The whole "high-end" (LOL) raiding scene is a Goddamn circus with the number of clowns in it.

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

when the clarion call of 'content is too easy' I reply in earnest, 'maybe if you stopped using addons the game would become harder. sadly people dont truly play for difficulty it seems, they play for the prestige and will self nerf the content in any way possible to achieve it while admonishing those they deem _lesser than_ them.

@davehehl6565

Жыл бұрын

I lost interest in watching world 1st raiding in WoW because the top teams do not reflect the best players. The top teams can afford to have the best 3rd part cheats made. It is pretty clear to me when the come to FFXIV and they are clearly not the best. In fact Max has been catch doing content that he claims to have done blind but clearly watched video guides.

@ziegfeld4131

Жыл бұрын

Cheat isnt the right word here most 3rd party add ons just fix the shitty UI that 14 has

@Jelloshotmod2

Жыл бұрын

@@ziegfeld4131 cope

8:54 Trios are NOT named as such because there are 3 mechanics happening at the same time. Often times it is many more than 3 things simultaneously, but the "trio" name comes from the original version of a mechanic when the boss goes away while you focus on a very hard mechanic - in the UCOB ultimate where every bahamut mechanic has the name "trio" because there are 3 main bosses in that encounter (twintania, nael, bahamut).

@Lordi99

Жыл бұрын

This is true^

@SoulxWeaver

Жыл бұрын

Trio is basically synonymous with mechanic vomit now lol

@fendril_tv

Жыл бұрын

Came down to say the same thing.

@hb-mek

Жыл бұрын

@@SoulxWeaver trio is basically synonymous with "boss becomes untargetable and mechanics get thrown at you"

@FessyDKnight

Жыл бұрын

Yes, while true, but these days, "Trio" is known as the mechanic vomit. It's like how everyone still calls things Twisters, or Dynamo, or Chariot, or Limit Cut. They're named after the type of mechanic they are and "Trio" is no exception.

Chat bubbles certainly give an advantage. It could mean the difference between ERP with one or two catgirls at once. Anyway after the Gshade drama, it seems even the :harmless" tools are risk and Yoshi needs to put them in the game as soon as possible.

@redcatte5253

Жыл бұрын

All jokes aside on this, you could argue that they do give an advantage in a raid scenario, I remember seeing a POV for E12S (Eden 12th Raid Savage difficulty) once, and there was a person using Macros for position of players during a certain mechanic, now this is perfectly normal and uses in-game features to do so, however this person also had the Chat Bubbles Plugin installed, and the macro formed ASCII symbols to solve the mechanic, so people (with the plugin installed) would had a good visual indicator on how to position for mechanics than having to look on your bottom left and make sense of the text there.

@Dewkeeper

Жыл бұрын

@@redcatte5253 even assuming there's no simpler way of dealing with possible exploits of the function, they could just disable bubbles for hard fights, just like how they didn't remove waymarks, only disabled changing them mid combat

@Ninos.D

Жыл бұрын

@@redcatte5253 it could also be in that case, just to be a replacement for discord. Not everyone can hear and if chat bubbles in conjunction with a clever chat macro makes it possible to communicate then I see it being almost a necessity to any MMO IMO. But your point is taken as well.

@Zabzim

Жыл бұрын

@@redcatte5253the issue here really isn’t the cheating because people cheat, it’s just human nature. The issue at hand is how this all blew up, it’s really a testament of Japan culture of social pressure which is at fault here. The raiders felt that they needed to cheat because of social pressure that Japanese society puts down upon itself. The worse part is, that this is just going to make things worse in Japan and the next time they’ll have to be cleverer when they do in fact cheat.

@bxnaxmxxnaxx1914

Жыл бұрын

@Mike Pearce Don't you dare confuse Human Nature, with cheating. They both are different things. One is the required things in order to survive. The other is a personal need for personal gratification that doesn't benefit anyone even the cheater. Specially when they cry when caught.

"We think everyone else is cheating, so we cheated." is not the thing to say when you get caught cheating.

@nezrafallon4086

Жыл бұрын

"It's not the big brain play you think it is"

@BransonGood

Жыл бұрын

to be fair, most of them are cheating, even the discords for the ultimate groups promote the ACT plugins. i love ffxiv but as a mid core at best player its really hard to fing a grp for anything because the hardcore people have such an advantage over you with just cactbot and even pixel perfect.. shit its clear that the other player are all using this stuff when they raid with mike even. some even make jokes about it..

@OmegaHunter08

Жыл бұрын

@@BransonGood don't join those groups. If someone can't clear without cactbot, they are bad. I used pixel perfect at one point when I was literally a sprout doing uwu for the first time, stopped using it ever since I developed a good eye for it, got annoying anyway. So honestly, those "hardcore people" are more like casual noobs. There are plenty of players who will refuse to use anything other than a dps meter and noclippy, because it would take away credence of the clear, and in general the fun of the challenge. Besides, with how things are developing, I am waiting for everyone using calloutbots and other tools that play the game for you, to get shamed to hell and back, maybe after yoshiP deigns to properly outline what plugins count as cheating.

@Ashtari

Жыл бұрын

@@OmegaHunter08 He has. It's all cheating. All addons are cheating and can result in a ban. ACT, ReShade, Gshade, Zoomhacks, Cactbot, and anything else you can install into FFXIV that a console player can't. The catch is that due to Japanese privacy law SE can't install invasive anti-cheat software to look for any of that. So if you don't tell/show, you won't get banned. Not that I'm supporting using any addons. It very much is use at your own risk.

@OmegaHunter08

Жыл бұрын

@@Ashtari I know he has, but his statement is extremely non-agreeable. No one will ever take a man serious who is deadass prohibiting people from building upon the games foundation trying to make it better, wasting their own free time in the process, just to offer people the QoL and customization that is non-existent. If you read his recent lodenstone post regarding the ultimate race, it is clear that his rhetoric targets specifically game difficulty-reducing tools, rather than plugins as a whole. Yet he still cannot admit that character skin and hud mods do improve the game immensely, and make people continue playing the game everyday. Cause holy shit the interface is clunky just to switch my frickin job on the go, I don't want to make a shitton of hotbars and stick every job icon in there.

Lmao i got a wow boosting ad

@drayle71

Жыл бұрын

same

@taco_sensei

Жыл бұрын

LMAOOOO ME TOO

@faelirra

Жыл бұрын

me too xD

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

because WoW boosting services have no shame. they will advertise on a wow video talking about sexual harassment claims.

As an old 80's gamer who had no choice but to dissect intentionally difficult games back when there was no internet or tools, I genuinely don't see the point of modding the balance of a game or outright cheating - with or without a competitive environment surrounding it. That's fine at a casual, harmless, offline game level - such as modding your offline RPG to speed things up or make it more fun for yourself - but not during any form of competition.

so small clarification since im a massive nerd but calling mechanics trios was first from The Unending Coil of Bahamut (UCOB), the first ultimate, and are called trios because in that fight there were segments in the 3rd phase where the boss would jump away after casting X trio (quickmarch trio, Heavensfall trio) where the boss would do a sort of mechanic vomit for the players to deal with so now any massive downtime phase that has multiple mechanics are now labeled trios on top of their cast names.

@jonathanborba9280

Жыл бұрын

To add on to this, that is how naming basically any mechanic name is handled in FFXIV by the community. Whatever it was called the first time that mechanic was used in the game, that's almost always how the player base labels it. Protean, Flare, Chariot, Limit cut, Dynamo, even Trio, which was seen in the first ultimate and basically meant downtime mechanic vomit puzzle. Edit: This is mostly just clarifying that "trio" does not mean 3 mechanics at once like Preach said, although that is basically what is happening.

@domovoi25

Жыл бұрын

And they were called "trios" because it involved the three bosses (Bahamut, Twintania, Nael) jumping into the sky and doing their mechanics vomit while untargetable.

@mrrodgers0

Жыл бұрын

@@jonathanborba9280 It's a thing in a lot of games. In Magic: the Gathering, for instance, non-keyworded mechanics usually get nicknamed after the first card they appear on. (e.g.- putting cards from the top of a player's deck into their discard pile has been referred to as "milling" [after the card Millstone] for so long that WotC recently made it the official game term for the action)

I love the ffxiv ultimates even if im too bad to do them myself, theyre so beautiful and epic and I enjoy watching the races. im 100% on yoshi-p's side and frosty. everyone should stream. I hope they keep making new ultimates and I hope this drama helps in preventing this from happening again. ive never seen more amazing mmo boss fights as the ultimate encounters(especially DSR) and i really dont want them to stop making them.

@op4000exe

Жыл бұрын

For one thing, it adds legitimacy to it. I don't even play FF14, yet I still wholeheartedly believe that an encounter beaten should never be mired by cheating, it's significantly more awesome when it's pure.

@Giliver

Жыл бұрын

Assuming they don't ban you for minor QoL add-ons then sure.(non advantageous ones)

@op4000exe

Жыл бұрын

@@Giliver That's a very diffuclt thing to know in the present. While yes in theory I'd agree, the issue is, you could design an addon to look like a benign addon, but have the function of something gamebreaking. If you want to avoid "polluting the well" with gamebreaking addons, you only really have 2 options. A. square and yoshi make the addons themselves and vet a few addons for QoL for those that need it (in which case one'd wonder why you'd even make them addons, and not just UI elements), or B. Square bans all of them, you can't really allow third party addons, and be sure that any gamebreaking ones won't slip through the cracks. Heck you can't even be sure of that in option A.

@Angarato86

Жыл бұрын

@@Giliver even tho i completely agree with you and they should just add them to the game themselves i can also see it from a devs eyes. they do this for self protection, if you allow even 1, then it just is an unending stream of "what about this 1, or that 1?" imagine as a dev how annoying that would be, who's gonna get the job of checking all the addons and saying which are allowed and which isnt and all the shitstorms that come with that. its just not worth it for them and i completely understand that. as much as it sucks for us. they cannot open that door cause you wont ever be able to close it.

@Giliver

Жыл бұрын

@@op4000exe if you're streaming it should be blatantly obvious if your add-on is considered cheating or not.

I mean Neverland did not stream this RWF so who knows if they used add-ons as well since they have in the past. That's the thing they are the "undisputed" best team that used add-ons before so it's not undisputed sadly. In the forums there's a several hundred page debate asking whether they need to add an anti cheat... And after the gshade drama it got even more traction

@zephyros256

Жыл бұрын

doubt there will ever be some form of anti-cheat, especially client-side since afaik they aren't allowed to investigate other peoples computers due to local law.

@Bankai90

Жыл бұрын

@@zephyros256 Not just law. But without ACT you'd lose a big chunk of the raiding community. And without all of the QoL mods you would also lose a ton of nolife casuals. Overall it would just be a big risk to ensure the top 1% doesn't "cheat".

@AronKoch30

Жыл бұрын

@@zephyros256 just easy if you want to play this game you have to allow that square enix ti investigate your pc

@havtor007

Жыл бұрын

@@AronKoch30 That would straight up be illigal unless square enix supply the PC in the first place. And even then it needs to be very plainly laid out that the machine is under survaliance if not it breaks the law in so many nations it would never work.

Really appreciate Preach being a member of the FFXIV community to make these kind of videos.

I took part in 1 shadowbringers ultimate months after it was done, and even with guides, dozens of pulls we still wiped numerous times. But was those wipes when we got the clear that made me feel like i was watching the final 3% of Arthas tick down. Same feeling, same vibe. No DPS meters for it, no nothing. Just weeks and weeks of practice, and failures to get a stupid cosmetic for my house. >

@ShakeyMac18

Жыл бұрын

Hardcore raiders clear ultimate for the prestige. Hardcore housing enthusiasts clear ultimate for the coffee table centerpiece. We are not the same.

@bxnaxmxxnaxx1914

Жыл бұрын

@@ShakeyMac18 The end result is an Prestige item and title that they both receive.., They are the same.

@ShakeyMac18

Жыл бұрын

@@bxnaxmxxnaxx1914 You don't know the meme I'm referencing do you?

@TheZeagon

Жыл бұрын

Just did my first extreme as a new player on 360ping with my gf who's never played mmos or rpgs Same feeling of getting a mythic kill after 100 pulls in wow

@BM03

Жыл бұрын

You have a HOUSE? Now THAT'S the real ultimate achievement.

You are late, we already on an other drama preach, the Gshade drama😆

@TheChunkeyNinja

Жыл бұрын

Oh we're on it haha. Me and Bex have typed up the notes for mike, he just needs to record and we're good to go.

@RiogaRivera

Жыл бұрын

@@TheChunkeyNinja nice cant wait 👍

Would love to have Preach, Frosty, and the dev team meet to further the discussion on officiating the race.

Yep, RWF competitors should 100% be streaming, if they want to go for that prestige. If you don't, there's nothing stopping you from playing off-stream and just having the same experience as anyone else. On a side note, it was really fucking lame that Unnamed tried to indirectly put the blame on western players when they finished two effing days ahead of anyone else. I don't personally care about damage meters as performance analysis tools, or other QoL stuff like chat bubbles. Hacking cameras and weak aura-style "follow the instructions" mods are very clearly taking it too far.

I’m so glad you mentioned the fact that the game is also on console- it feels like content creators almost always don’t consider how that affects topics like these

@dullahandan4067

Жыл бұрын

cause consoles don't matter

@HUNTERxROY

Жыл бұрын

@@dullahandan4067 I beg to differ

@azi3846

Жыл бұрын

@@dullahandan4067 says consoles dont matter on a video about a mmo specifically designed with consoles in mind

@tibik.8407

Жыл бұрын

@@dullahandan4067 So hows the new God of War for you- oh wait....

@desdenova1

Жыл бұрын

@@dullahandan4067 They do matter, but they have been converging into gaming PCs more and more each generation.

One of the best videos Preach (&Chris for that matter) has put out in recent memory - very informative for those not in the loop, thorough and well researched. Good job!

@xDeadfusionx

Жыл бұрын

Only bad point is it failed to touch on the fact that a probably the most well known ffxiv streamer whos also clipped in this video had a member of their team using 3rd party tools that were arguably worse than zoom hack. Ofc their excuse is "we didnt know" and the actual cheater just happened to be "trying it this 1 time"

Addon acceptance in MMOs is the weirdest thing to me, especially when it comes to competitive scenes like WF races. I can't think of any other multiplayer game genre that allows the use of 3rd party tools because...duh. Another thing i don't see mentioned much around FF's 3rd party tool policy is the fact that console players play FF too. They shouldn't be put in a position where they're not competitively viable because of the platform they play on.

I think what is either lost on people or just not mentioned enough, is that unlike WoW, FF14 is cross platform. Addons of any kind are unable to be used on the console versions. which is part of the main reason they are frowned upon. heck both of the Tanks in my static play on PS5 and we have had no issue clearing content. but I kind of understand the rationale with JPN teams, with the influx of western players from other games that take addons for granted, has seen a rise in addon development for FF14. o the flipside goin back to WoW raiding after being used to games like FF14 actually cheapened the experience for me. so I started raiding without addons. and it felt good until I was forced to install some as for some reason me not having any addons was messing up other raiders, as their addons could not talk to my character with out them letting them know if I had some fight effect etc.

The way WOW is designed with addons in mind and how it affects raid difgiculty was actually one of the main reasons why I stopped playing the game. It's not fun for me to kill a boss that has 5 BS mechanics that are INTENDED to be solved with addons and are extremely challenging without such tools. It's just not fun.

@FisherGaming

Жыл бұрын

If you need add-ons for any of the fights in Dragonflight, you're just bad. Name a single mechanic you need add-ons to solve in Vault of the Incarnates on any difficulty. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

@@FisherGaming yeah why have addons when Blizzard purposely overtunes everything under the sun for the world first then nerfs it into the ground for the "plebs" after the race is over.

@Aisaaax

Жыл бұрын

@@FisherGaming Don't know. I've not played since Legion. Also quit with the elitism please. No one can deny that WoW Mythic raids get overcomplicated to offset addon usage. If an addon makes a balanced boss 5 times easier, then Blizzard's solution is simply "5 times more BS to bring it back to balanced". Always has been. It just makes bosses a boring mess of a clusterfuck, because Addons still get you through it, but none of the mechanics is memorable anymore. Because now EVERY boss has to have at least 50% of the possible pool of mechanics. Cheapens all of them. How many bosses in an expansion has a "X people need to stand in this voidzone or huge raid AOE" mechanic? A good 30-40% of them. Or "Add spawns and needs to be nuked before it reaches boss/player/portal"? Those used to be pretty unique calling cards of a boss. Now they are seen 6-10 times in each expansion. Because every boss needs to have 10 mechanics instead of 3 to offset how much an addon trivialized each of them individually.

@sausejii

Жыл бұрын

@@Aisaaax are you a furry

@lost1head

Жыл бұрын

All content in WoW can be cleared without addons. Theres nothing that *requires* you to have one. But they make things easier and convenient so might as well be mandatory.

I personally have no desire to ever participate in aworld first. I lack the skill and time to even attempt it. Those who do though, have my respect and admiration. I know you guys put in hours upon hours to achieve this goal. I find it insanely fascinating to watch. The abilities and skills that these world first racers brings to bare is quite honestly, mind boggling. Keep up the good work you special few! It's sad that the small few that cheat always seem to ruin things for those who legitimately go about doing this. It's a slap in the face to all the world first racers. And the excuses they bring after getting caught is always self serving and hilarious. We "though" the westerners were doing it so we did it to... What an excuse, what a joke! It is extremely satisfying to watch those few that do cheat, get caught and shamed into oblivion though!

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

It not a small few a lot of ppl use it

@Zindril

Жыл бұрын

@@anteprs7908 His claim has as much weight as yours. Neither you nor he can know as you don't have a real sample to draw out from. Only your personal bias.

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

@@Zindril personal bais true but mine has proof most mmo players today arent hardcore raiders .

11:35 one of greatest things I've ever seen

A bit of history. The community stance against addons hasn't always been as harsh as it is now, at least on the western side. It has gotten more harsh as dev response has gotten more harsh. Before the DSR fiasco, it was common to STREAM with addons, which naturally makes your ToS violation obvious, but punishment for this was basically unheard of. Before this it was just accepted that as long as you weren't doing anything TOO egregious then even combat addons were fair game. The Ultimate before DSR (TEA), the world first clear also had an addon controversy. The world first team used an addon to automatically move waymarks during combat, something which at the time would normally need to be done manually. In response to this, the devs changed the game so that waymarks could not be moved during combat, but the world first team was not punished in any way. However the incident stirred up a bit of bad blood, particularly on the Japanese community side who are MUCH more anti-addon than the west (Japan doesn't have WoW so addon culture in MMOs has never been trained into them). That controversy fired up again when the world first clear video for DSR had addon usage on clear display (remember, before this, streams and videos with addons in full view was normal, so the clear team, or at least the uploader, didn't even think they were doing anything clandestine), again mostly on the Japanese side, which lead to the big response from Yoshi. Only since then has the idea of addons being a complete no-no in raiding become common. However addon usage is easy to hide, and among those in the know, use of addons that would be considered egregious by the community has LONG been common among top raid groups, to the point that it is considered normal in that scene. These latest controversies are not isolated incidents, they are just revealing an open secret to the broader playerbase. While their excuse is a copout, UNNAMED_ are right about one thing which is that western groups ARE using this shit. The only difference is that it doesn't leak. The question going forward is what is going to be the standard for legitimacy in the eyes of the community.

@fuuchimunchlax

Жыл бұрын

this should be more widely known. The way things turned out to be are largely affected by how the japanese community are responding. Since the Japanese players are "expected" to display exemplary behavior, when they are caught using 3rd party tools, the backlash is much much more worse than if an overseas player does the same.

@AronKoch30

Жыл бұрын

there will be no standard just follow the rules if not ban hammer

The fact that FFXIV devs test raids themselves is wild. Awesome. Wish Blizzard did that.

@Icedmindblow

Жыл бұрын

They even had to tune down the HP of one boss because their team became so good at clearing it 😄 the dps check in week 1 was basically on par with ultimate content.

@RokkitGrrl

Жыл бұрын

There's a laundry list of things we wish Blizzard would do. But they're so stuck inside of their own heads that they've convinced themselves that the players don't know anything. Blizzard is its own echo chamber, and all of their games in every IP has suffered greatly because of this.

@lynxcomplex3099

Жыл бұрын

@@Icedmindblow I remember reading this. It was the funniest reason i could think of. Like i can imagine they discussed reasons just to avoid the humble brag

@FeelsGouda

Жыл бұрын

@@RokkitGrrl What are you talking about? Regarding raiding, they listen a great deal to the players, given they are the driving force behind PBE testing. I guess this is the one time, they are more or less reliant on the players even though the main design obviously comes from their own team. Not trying to defend blizzards other stuff, in general, sure, there is a lot to criticize, but I am pretty sure a lot of people agree, that their raid content was always top of the line and certainly not the issue they lost so much appeal the last few years. (Of course you can say that most of the balancing is around high level players, which brings its own set of issues.)

@Ashtari

Жыл бұрын

They even go so far to have teams outside of the battle development team take on the fights. So they'll have the art team or ui team take a swing at the bosses to make sure raids are possible.

What a great video, thank you for explaining the full story so well. As a WoW player this is super interesting to learn. Looking forward to watching the Omega Protocol RWF!!

Great coverage. I side with Yoshi-P's sentiments regarding the world first races and Ultimate. I am nowhere near good enough to even consider trying out one, but I appreciate the spectacle of the competition watching highly skilled and coordinated players compete for prestige. I do wonder why there was so much hesitancy to take the actions Frosty only recently implemented. With the rise in concern over add-ons, it just makes sense to take the logical step and keep the system you helped to create safe from that level of ire. I don't use any myself and don't actively promote anything, I still feel sorry for the players themselves for feeling pressured into doing something like that knowing the potential risks.

"my impression of FFXIV has significantly deteriorated... Because I got caught cheating and was called out on it." - _UNNAMED team member.

The most problematic statement was when Yoshi-P mused on the need to spend the amount of money and resources they do on creating ultimate content (that is asked for by some in the community), only for people to cheat to beat it. If this happens with the next Ultimate, then I can see them step away from making them.

@RokkitGrrl

Жыл бұрын

And that's the real terrible thing. I've heard people lamenting about how FFXIV lacks any serious content, and then when there is, we find out people have been cheating. People need to make up their goddamned minds about what they want FFXIV to be.

@AdelaideTsukino

Жыл бұрын

People don't want the hard content for the challenge. They want it to brag. If they actually wanted the challenge they wouldn't do anything to make the fights easier.

11:50 This is what scares me the most about add-ons being normalized for boss encounters. I hated being forced to use mods in WoW against my will; if I didn't use mods, I couldn't raid. That I was allowed to learn and figure out mechanics for myself or with a group of people and get that satisfaction from doing so was such a breath of fresh air in FFXIV. When a mechanic finally clicks and you never fail it again is such a good feeling. And then you improve your timing and rotation with your newfound knowledge. I got ahead of the curve achievements in WoW raids without understanding any of the mechanics I was doing. If I asked the raid leader a question about a fight, the answer was to just follow DBM.

@anders.2259

Жыл бұрын

The elitist visions and behaviour have destroyed many games as they think like hit and run gangsters. The journey and learning curve have been kicked out as something bad and youngsters today think that everything between entering a instance to the loot is a waste of time. So why the f**k they even play games is a mystery! 😳

@nuudelz3711

Жыл бұрын

But you’re not forced. You don’t have to use them. The nice thing about wow is no one cares if you do or don’t use addons. Ff14 seems to bring in all the tattle tales from school yard 😂

@darksunDS

Жыл бұрын

@@nuudelz3711 This is one of the dumbest statements I have read in this comment section so far. WoW players ABSOLUTELY care if you don't use addons. In fact, if you want to do any type of end-game content it's ADD-ons or GTFO. Nobody is going to give you the time of day if you don't conform in WoW. WoW has turned into a sweat-lord's wet dream with people kicking others out of NORMAL leveling dungeons at the start of the expansion because they're not decked out enough and makes the run a minute slower than they want or expect. God-forbid you WIPE in a dungeon, let's not even go there. The only way you can get away without using add-ons is if you're far and above, leagues beyond other players in performance and execution which rarely holds true, or running with friends/in a static group.

@nuudelz3711

Жыл бұрын

@@darksunDS damn sorry you play with a toxic group and label all WoW players the same? Idk what to tell you mate I heavily use addons and there’s people in our mythic group who don’t use any. Sounds like you don’t know how to pull yourself out of a bad situation and just blame everyone else

@darksunDS

Жыл бұрын

@@nuudelz3711 You have to be really ignorant to say that with a straight face. I've been playing WoW since friggin Vanilla and the community has been on a downhill trend for over a decade now. Mind you I'm not laying this fault exclusively at the community as many (if not arguably most) of the behavioral trends are caused by Blizzard themselves through their design, but to even DARE to pretend like WoW's community is not a cesspit is to be living in an alternate reality.

Great video, very informative. This is also why I dislike WoW gameplay with the mandatory addons required in any late game content.

RED IS DEFAMATION.. RED,... IS DEFAMATION.

Been happening for years, happened with TEA too. But for some reason people defend Sfia and the TEA "world first" group who obviously cheated by having a program automatically place waymarkers for each mechanic. This was actually removed from the game after TEA because the devs saw it as too easy to abuse.

@treebush

Жыл бұрын

That wasn’t third party though just a macro

@ItSosej

Жыл бұрын

@@treebush paisley park was definitely a third party program.

@Bankai90

Жыл бұрын

@@treebush Bro people use auto-waymarks to this day lol. Nothing changed for first world clearers xD

@aileenswann

Жыл бұрын

@@Bankai90 You cannot place waymarks while on combat anymore.

@DawnAfternoon

Жыл бұрын

Correction. Their clear video was not for each mechanic. It's for every change of phase. That was why people don't hound on TPS that hard as they did UNNAMED_.

I dont think that the Ultimate testers cleared TOP without using devtools. Lots of small bugs in it that killed runs even when the players did the mechanics correctly.

@qlcrane8019

Жыл бұрын

Something they run in test environment won't always 100% be the same as launching it on the live servers so not everything can always go right and bugs might go through. Happens every patch

A few of comments/addenda: 1. As other people have said, a "trio" is just when the boss goes untargetable and then you get a ton of mechanics vomited at you. They are named after the corresponding mechanics in the first Ultimate, UCoB, which are literally called "trios". 2. The leaked video showed a portion of the penultimate phase of the fight and not it's final moments. 3. A two-day lead in an Ultimate is not unheard of. The world first for the Ultimate before DSR (TEA) also got the clear two days before the world second. Addons were involved there too (as well as controversy), but it didn't help them solve the main wall of the fight which was a hidden puzzle mechanic which required solving the penultimate phase in a very specific way, otherwise the final phase is impossible. In my opinion, while addon usage IS unethical and DOES give an advantage, I don't think it accounts for a two-day discrepancy in progress in this case (particularly as it is likely that Neverland was also using addons). 4. I personally think that the difficulty of balancing and testing content with addons in mind is not really a factor in why the FF devs do not want to allow addon usage. It's not just "we don't want the game to become WoW". Rather, because the game is on consoles, allowing addons would make the game fundamentally unfair for a significant portion of the players. It's one thing for addons to be mandatory, its another for them to be mandatory when some players literally cannot install them. Additionally, addons are outside SE's direct control. If SE says addons are allowed, how responsible does that make them for the content of addons? We've just seen with Gshade that addons are potentially a powderkeg of drama and abuse, and it is perfectly understandable that SE would not want to directly endorse something which could easily get out of hand and become a PR or legal issue.

@AshnSilvercorp

Жыл бұрын

Their ambiguity with it as strict all, not just strict on cheating is creating a coming firestorm if they try to crack down on it with an automated or software measure. 70% the people I know use them for innocent reasons. So if they never define it as "no-cheating with tools" and execute other measures to check on the competitive side, it will remain confusing. If they go full ham and begin using client-side anticheat to detect matieral, they will have broken their word on avoiding scanning your own PC. It would also probably make a ton of players leave as they may consider it their own endgame to do when they don't want to play more challenging quests. Their best option is to literally keep this status quo or risk impacting their playerbase.

So the excuse they use is everyone else was using them so they had to. But based on the time to kill, if even one other team had people using these addons wouldn't they have killed it in at least a somewhat similar time? Maybe at least within 24 hours? It would seem that most of the people involved in the world first race seemed to stay true to the no addon rule. Or at the very least no addon that makes the fight easier for them. Which I gotta be honest, its kind of refreshing to hear. It makes me think that these players do respect not just the other competitors, but also the developers and yoshi p. People asked for harder content and the developers went out of their way to create it to make those people happy. If you're just going to use addons to then make it easier, then whats the point? Just go back to doing savage and extremes because clearly you're not good enough to do ultimate. And that is totally fine. If you're reaching your limit in extreme or savage then just do extreme or savage. Nobody is going to care if you're not doing ultimates.

Some corrections, mostly not important (someone feel free to correct me back if I made any mistakes): 1. Trios are a catch-all term for the types of huge downtime mechanics that often occur in Ultimates, we call them trios because in UCOB the mechanics were named Blackfire Trio, Quickmarch Trio, etc. There's nothing particularly special about the number 3 as it applies to other fights. This is the same for why we sometimes use Dynamo/Chariot for In/Outs, etc, Proteans for clock spread beams, etc. 2. The leaked video of the zoom hack was in the second to last phase of the fight, and is actually a wipe, it wasn't a clear VOD. 3. Dragonsong's Reprise, not Reprisal :P that's a tank CD. 4. In the leaked video, the zoom hack wasn't really 'replacing communication', the mechanic in question/the fight in general doesn't really require it, its more about not having to rotate your camera around to get info from the sides of the arena and being able to see every tell at once. Same general spirit as what was said. 5. Comparing the difference between world 1st and 2nd in Savage vs Ultimate is dubious. Savage lasts about a day, Ultimate has been lasting a bit less than a week the last 2 tiers. It is feasible to have a group significantly far ahead in Ultimate ( I think in DSR there was a 2 day difference between 1st and 2nd as well?), before even accounting for the classic Paid Time-Off Enrage that hits many groups after World First has been claimed. The time difference here probably shouldn't be considered evidence of cheating. More than likely UNNAMED played amazing AND cheated, which is part of why its such a sad thing to see. 6. MogTalk is the definitive 3rd party coverage of the RWF in FF, but for people that don't watch the race, Frosty not recognizing non-streamed kills isn't the end-all-be-all. A lot of raiders are just watching logs for updates and will recognize the WF as first to kill, regardless of streamed or not, and Square Enix itself historically tweets out the first kill regardless of whether or not its streamed. That being said, WF raiders, even in groups that traditionally don't stream prog (Sfia) think there's a decent chance streaming becomes the norm, though some others (Sindalf) don't necessarily want that to be the case and hope Frosty changes his mind. It's an interesting open question that we'll learn more about next race.

i played both games and fully agree with the No 3rd Party tools, even if it is just a damage meter. damage meters can be a curse. even if every raidmember performed at 100%, one is going to be number 1 and another last. and it will become very... very toxic on the lower levels.

A side note about fflogs showing groups progress. The only way to see your progress there is by using ACT which is also a not allowed 3rd party tool. So technically everyone showing prog there are breaking TOS too 😂

My thought on rtwf requiring streaming is this: The people who can do this content WILL do this content. You may have a bench sitter watching another team's prog and pass along strats to the active players, but ultimately, they're going to be running this content and executing it. It may give an edge to have someone sharing other team strats, but how do they know you're not currently using them? If everyone streams, it levels the field. :( disappointing that addon culture has gotten his pervasive.

@bxnaxmxxnaxx1914

Жыл бұрын

depends on where they stream it as well as private streams can be set up, so only devs with the link can go and watch it. So maybe not all the info will be shared. But they will be verified, and the streams, later released to public/reuploaded. Kinda like when some do Speedruns, or simply put, have themselves shacked up as always, only the integrity will be shown. as not all racers will/are streamers, but many do have the capability to do so.

@spookyfish24

Жыл бұрын

@@bxnaxmxxnaxx1914 That's a great compromise!

Its crazy that people want cheat at optional content that was made to be challenging for the most hardcore players, just for [clout?]. It's sad I dont really keep up theses world firsts, I just see clips and go like thats cool...i will never do that cause I dont have time or i never be able keep up with it.

@gettingannoyedquick

Жыл бұрын

Just for clout and flexing so they can leave their character idol in major cities.

@MaxiusTheGod

Жыл бұрын

If there is anything I learned, people will go to insane lengths for the tiniest amount of prestige or power.

Used to do endgame raiding in FFXIV. Was so disgusted at the amount of cheating that actually happens. Its supposed absence was what got me involved in the first place, and when looking for a static, it was a RARITY to find any that didn't have atleast one or two players that were running cheats in the form of addons that were solving mechanics for them live (they would then relay said information to the rest of the static, if anyone else wasn't also cheating). VERY happy to see that Square's been stepping up and taking action on these guys. Ruins the scene when people cheat.

I actually got used to playing an mmo without chat bubbles, even after over 15 years of WoW and Rift. I do wish, though, that Square would implement some of the "lesser harm 3rd party" stuff you'd find around - like indeed chat bubbles with a toggle option, or maybe the ability to chain macros (for us crafters) or have more than 15 lines per slot. Simple quality of life stuff, nothing cheaty. And I even got used to play an mmo without addons like DBM or weakauras. Some HUD tweaks and actual paying attention what the boss is doing, paired with a "long" gcd which gives you time to breathe and think about your next move and you won't miss them ever again. Because yes, the boss fights in FFXIV are fun and challenging when you won't have a babysitter holding your hand and leading the way.

I like the overall message he gave "if you can't beat it without 3rd party tools, it's a skill issue. git gud" unlike WoW they actually play their own game to see if it can be done.

@kye4216

Жыл бұрын

Limiting the difficulty of a raid by the devs having to clear it is dumb. The best players in the world are 10x better than the devs.

@shadowsage2636

Жыл бұрын

@@kye4216 and yet these "best players in the world" all need the cheating tools to beat it. i used to be a hardcore raider. most cannot do without it and almost require it. they are 10x worse, the devs don't stream their progress so you wouldn't even know. Unless of course you meant the WoW players are 10x better than the devs then that is true since the devs have no clue what they are doing.

@havtor007

Жыл бұрын

"unlike WoW they actually play their own game to see if it can be done." And that is just factually false and a lie. It is sad that mike having gone to the headquarters perpetuate the lie but it is still a lie. You can also say final fantasy developers are cheating to do the mechanics because they made them if it is puzzle like mechanics they already have the knowhow of what they need to watch for because they made it making it way way way easier for them to do the encounter then people who is playing the game without having made the encounter. It is like someone who makes a thing then takes it apart and makes it again to test if it is good to give someone else who has not done the work to make the thing originally.

The issue is, Japanese players were calling us Western players cheaters, and they stand on their hill claiming they don't cheat. Then their group got caught cheating and now they know they can't use that excuse anymore, so they are upset at the people who cheated.

@chaoschris8194

Жыл бұрын

They were also spam reporting western streamers and laughing about it.

@KenshinRyuzaki

Жыл бұрын

Big distinction here is that Japanese people are kind, hospitable and friendly. However; hardcore Japanese PC gamers are some of the most toxic individuals you'll ever meet. The xenophobia and race superiority complex they've got in that little microcosm is insane, and they'll blame foreigners while propping themselves up at any opportunity.

@OmegaHunter08

Жыл бұрын

@@chaoschris8194 jp 4chan also spam reported some small jp streamer who was using nothing else but buff timers and a party mitigation cd tracker, so mere hud info plugins, made them drop out of the race. They are frickin toxic af, and extremely elitist, showing no consideration for other players, and lacking any patience or understanding of human error. And it clearly shows in this situation where the cheaters are so afraid of their own community that they'd rather delete their characters alltogether with all the time they invested into it. Might raid on another DC from now on, who knows, cause they'll get witchhunted to hell and back for disgracing the great jp masterrace.

@ooSHINIES

Жыл бұрын

@@OmegaHunter08 I'd just change my name and lay low, ghost/remove the fc and friends list. Worst case sell my house, fuck deleting my catgirl, there is no shot. I wouldn't cheat beyond damage meters either but still, fuck everyone else lol.

@fernandofor98

Жыл бұрын

@@OmegaHunter08 Japan is horrible gamingwise, in all aspects but making them. They prove again and again that they can be just as fucking toxic as the west, if not more.

As a hardcore ff14 raider... i have to say wow mythic raiding is more difficult than ultimates in ff :) most of the mechanics are static so you can learn them and they stay the same, no rng or what so ever :D

I had been playing on a 26:9 which definitely made thordan way easier for me to identify safe spots for certain mechs. Now I play on a 32:9 samsung oddysey g9. I guarantee I can identify mechanics way easier and faster than everyone else.

I wish to god combat addons were banned in Wow and the game was balanced around that.

All in all, if the team is not streaming their prog. It's too easy to simply assume they are cheating. Because time and time again has shown that to be the case anyway, sadly. The good thing from all this drama, might be going ahead, only official clears will be recognized by teams who all stream their progress, WHOLE TEAM. Because it only takes one member to use the "hacks", to use said information from it, to be utilized by the rest "legit" members.

@bringithahn

Жыл бұрын

Disagree with the WHOLE TEAM bit. if the prog is streamed, information gained by 1 team is gained by all teams. like how Echo and Liquid learn off each other's prog walls. and the biggest information gains are from parsed data found through FFLogs, not from zooming out and checking vods anyway.

@BranBal

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. Must be WHOLE team streaming or nothing.

Yeah no they don't extensively test ultimates. The test team gets checkpoints so they don't actually beat the fights legit, which is what leads to all the issue's in this ultimate. They do it 1 phase at a time.

Hey look ! It's Xenosys Vex at @11:35!

@Nevindaz

Жыл бұрын

GUNMODE 🔫🤠

It's such a shame how much scandal there has been around recent rtwf events in Ffxiv, I'd love to see these events be popular, but the consistency of cheating is so disappointing, especially to see that it's going towards a direction of maybe losing out on this type of high end content for the game as a whole. My only complaint is that with dps checks being as stupidly tight as they were in TOP there is literally no way the devs can expect people not to be using damage meters in some form, and while I get why they don't want to add them for harassment, it would help close the door on cummunity accepted addons to integrate one.

@hb-mek

Жыл бұрын

if you think Yoshi Ps statement that they might stop making ultimates is true you have brain damage. A very obvious toothless remark that has no weight behind it. It is very obvious they wont stop making ultimates no matter what happens lmao

@anteprs7908

Жыл бұрын

@@hb-mek it would be good ultimate are done by so little ppl and dont bring in new players ,plus seeing cheating scandals with ever new ultimate make ultimates wins questinable

@JenDeyan

Жыл бұрын

I have to disagree. The devs have said that they clear the content first without any addons. Even DPS meters. So it is possible to clear the content without them and they do expect players to not use any damage meters. I also disagree that they should be added into the game. Damage meters will absolutely foster harassment. If it can't be done in the game, then people will use them to shame others outside of the game. Even if you just limit them to Savage and Ultimate content, party finder is a thing. Even if you limit them to pre-formed parties, streaming is a thing. Even if you limit it to players only being able to see their own damage, you will have groups that will require others to give their numbers and others will lord their big numbers over others. The player base is just too big to expect everyone to be mature enough for damage meters.

@anannoyedpanda

Жыл бұрын

@@hb-mek you have brain damage if you think it's appropriate to speak to someone in that manner. I'd suggest minding your tone.

@tibik.8407

Жыл бұрын

@@hb-mek Look, if this disables an entire army of (illegal) addon-makers and sore losers to cheat, it might not be such an idiotic idea, or to at least remove them temporarely. Starve them out so they will behave. Sure, a big number of decent hardcore raiders will also suffer, but that will turn into a community-wide witchunt and "detoxication".

So if a tool for better fov isn’t allowed, is all widescreen support also banned? Because those 2 things have similar effect and hardware advantage seems worse for me, compared to a tool everyone can get.

While streaming isn't 100% proof, it does give far better tools to find even other players using tools as now you can see exactly what they're doing and can piece it together with what they should know. If for instance you see the streamer consistently failing a mechanic due to execution, but all the other players are reacting significantly faster and not failing that same mechanic, that a good sign they're probably using some kind of aid while the streamer isn't. It isn't conclusive but it raises the suspicion levels and makes it that much harder to hide. Enough of this and it becomes counter productive to use the aids as your attempts to hide it actually are hurting you in your progress.

@PubstarHero

Жыл бұрын

Or you could just be Mr Happy's group where everyone else is doing great but he still is just screwing up non stop.

@Zindril

Жыл бұрын

Honestly dumb take. This attitude will cause ppl to not stream in the end lol. A random twitch idiot who barely does ultimates first of all most likely doesn't even understand the most complex ultimate mechanics, and also they don't know of mental shortcuts and easy tells a streamer (or another player in their team) can use to trivialise their mechanic. Also depending on what you are in many of those mechanics, some ppl have to think of a lot less. For example, party synergy on omega M/F. Usually the healers don't need to adjust at all (since you'd need a healer in every light party spread), but this means that they have far less of a mental load to deal with things than others. That would make them able to respond far faster than the melee (which is usually made to adjust no matter what, or the tank) in that mechanic specifically. I could go and on, but dumb solutions like this would make me instead just not stream and instead clear for myself only, if I had idiots who might misunderstand easy tricks to respond to mechanics as ''third party tools''. Just the other day I was accused of a using UI addon because a retard didn't realise that you can change the color of nameplates ingame. I literally made nameplates/healthbars of allies a dark red to make them more easily distinguishable lol.

Im not so sure if Neverland are recognized as the world first for omega either; I believe they were confirmed to be cheating again like they did in DSR. Same with the team that cleared third i believe ( i think they were the ones that had a confirmed cased of triple weaving without clipping which if uk anything about this game is impossible outside of third party tools). Its for that reason, and the fact they didnt stream either that I consider Kindred to be true world first as i believe they were the first streaming team to have cleared ToP

@OmegaHunter08

Жыл бұрын

you can triple weave with slow enough gcd on sth like brd (especially if you have that jp 1 digit ping and actually stable servers)... though that is rather specific

@beastbass1

Жыл бұрын

@@OmegaHunter08 it was on machinist or drg iirc

@DawnAfternoon

Жыл бұрын

@@beastbass1 Triple weave is still possible with low 10-20 ping. If you play in JP, triple weaving is very common.

@beastbass1

Жыл бұрын

@@DawnAfternoon yes. Maybe in jp. But the other team accused of triple weaving cheating is not jp

@ArmageddonEvil

Жыл бұрын

@@beastbass1 They probably live really close to where the Data Centers are since *cough* the Data Centers in the NA are in California. *cough*

Great video Preach. A very good overview informed by first hand knowledge of MMO RWF. I am 100% on board with the idea that WF is awarded only to teams that stream. Hidden kills creat far too much ambiguity. You can still hide mute coms for strategy discussion. This is common even in WoW RWF. To be clear, I dont really care if someone ends up getting a clear with the help of third party addons. I think its pretty mental to go around the hub areas wondering if someone truly EARNED their weapons and titles in the same way I have. However, the RWF is a specific event that should conform to a set of enforced rules; and third party addon restrictions are at the top of the list.

Cracks me up how most high up players in most games cry about a lack of content but as soon as they get more content they cheat to do it

Thank you Mike, for lending your credible voice to the topic. Solid video. People will always cheat. Always. The burden will be on dev teams to continue to find ways to lock things down. or not, and the whole race thing, fades.

2:55 Slight correction. The ultimate weapons are BiS alongside the savage weapons of the corresponding tier they were released in. After the next tier releases, they're better for glamour over ilvl. Ex: DSR weapons are the same ilvl as the Asphedelos Savage weapons and TOP weapons are the same ilvl as Abyssos weapons (current tier as of this video).

@untrustingstatue

Жыл бұрын

No. Ultimate weapons have one more materia slot, making them arguably better for parsing, but still better overall.

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

theres a difference between being one of the BiS weapons and being _the_ BiS weapon. he is thinking of this from a WoW standpoint is the mythic gear is head and shoulders superior to the lower difficulties, not alongside... superior.

@luchts4547

Жыл бұрын

Don't the ultimate ones have an extra materia slot, making them better? I suppose it depends if they have the right substats too...

@Skyztamer

Жыл бұрын

@@untrustingstatue Oh thank you, I didn't know that. I was just looking at it purely from an ilvl perspective.

Best thing to come out of this debacle were definitely the memes. Still, I hope this doesn't discourage the devs from making harder content. Yoshi-P just can't catch a break.

8:16 Can see where the rules are coming from. At the same time, "The intentionally bad camera is part of the difficulty design and its limitation will be enforced.". Oof.

What kind of BS is going on eh got to Level 60 then a Block on leveling and email telling me that my Sub ends middle March !! and also telling me to buy the expansions them I can play more and level up from 60 to ??

I completely understand where Yoshi-P is coming from. If I spent months of my life putting untold amount of hours and love into making something like the Ultimate raids, just to found out that people don't even care about figuring it out and just use addons that tells them how what to do, I would lose all motivation to continue any further.

@Fexghadi

10 ай бұрын

But for the add-ons to tell them what to do, they have to figure out the mechanics first... Then the add-ons must be programed to recognize all existing patterns of a mechanic, updated to the plugin, etc. So as much as UNNAMED_ cheated, they still... had to figure out everything in the fight by themselves. They used a zoom hack to do that more easily, and then when that was done, they used add-ons to tell them how to do mechanics that they had already executed properly beforehand. I'm not defending the cheating, but let's be real here. Everyone in Party Finder uses automarkers for ultimates. Every world first race group uses ACT to log everything that goes on in the fight and they then review numerical data that helps them understand exactly what's going on: how much a mechanic needs to be mitigated in order to survive with just enough HP that you can then save other mitigations for later, exact timings of damage packets, etc. Square will even argue that discord is a third-party tool, and everyone is free to draw the line of what they find acceptable and what isn't. But the reality of things is: everyone is cheating. Even console players who benefit from shotcalling by someone using ACT/Cactbot. The moment someone in your group uses cheats, you are indirectly benefitting as well, even as minorly as from them not dying half as often as they otherwise would.

Players: "We want difficult content" Devs: "Okay here you go" Players: "Time to get an addon to make it completely brain dead and easy!"

5:15 I'm sorry, what? Aren't those files server side, not client side? Or was it different back in Vanilla?

I'll never understand why people think it's ok to cheat. To me, in the shoes of Team Unnamed I would've taken the "knowledge" that overseas teams are using 3rd party tools as a challenge. Would my hypothetical team win? Probably not, but we'd prog with our own skill and knowledge, not relying on a cheat. As for livestreaming being a requirement for World's First clears, I agree. As Preach was talking about it in the video I had the thought of D&D Ability Scores. If someone's going to roll to determine their scores, they do it in front of the GM so everyone knows the rolls were legit, you can't just show up with perfectly maxed out stats at level 1 and claim it was legit, that's a huge red flag. Unnamed's record clear is an obvious sign of what happens when you let players "do their own thing". They cleared the fight a whole phase ahead of anyone else, to me that's a red flag and I'm glad they were found out. While I don't think they should've deleted their characters, losing any and all progress/rewards from clearing the fight while cheating is an acceptable punishment (in addition to the jokes made by the community ;P) But all that's just my opinion.

Play by their rules or get ban. Is that simple. Don't like it? Then don't play that game. Honestly I like the no add-on policies. Just look at WoW so many player post damage meter to shame others and or show how much more damage they do.

ToS: No addons People getting mad and leaving FF14 because someone being punished using addons. this doesn't sit right with me. I mean just leave and stop raiding if that upset you that someone being punished for breaking the ToS. Real raiders know this is a better raiding environment, less Add ons supporter, more fair gameplay, more skill and brain.

@absolstoryoffiction6615

Жыл бұрын

The TOS has no meaning when the PVP of FF14 has been riddled with hackers for a long time.

I still have a hard time coming to terms with living in a timeline where that FFXIV billboard exists.

Couldn't you easily stream with the addon that tells you the right position and just disable it being streamed? Afterall there are also people out there who use wallhacks in fps games while streaming.

Speaking as someone who's at perfect alexander enrage (triple legend soon lets gooo) I can absolutely say with certainty zoom hacks would make that phase laughably easy. It's so annoying to see the safespot in fate calibration alpha because you've got this dumptruck of a boss taking up 90% of your view and you need to see the two clones on the wall and which one flaps.... or you can look at the lasers, but I prefer looking at the wings lol. It's so disappointing people feel the need to use external tools like that... maybe I'm an outlier but the fights are GENUINELY some of the most fun I've had in the game - I will literally join fresh prog groups for UCOB and UWU just to teach people, because I want them to experience some of the coolest fights in the game. Yeah they're punishing, but I'm a firm believer that anyone can do an ultimate, they've just gotta be willing to try. Like... I started savage raiding in 6.1 and then jumped into UCOB and now I'm almost of a triple legend and then it's working on DSR when I can be assed. Anyone can do it, and it's a lot of fun!

@Bankai90

Жыл бұрын

Anyone can do old ultimates with a loot of time Mediocre players will not pass TOP's dps check for years. You've people not even skipping nails in Ifrit. They'll be 40% away of the total dps check in TOP lol

@charnotaurus2665

Жыл бұрын

@@Bankai90 people are already breezing through what used to be hard checks in DSR. You'd be surprised, give it an expansion. And me saying anyone can do ultimates =/= have your first one be TOP, that's insane. Baby steps, everyone can improve if they're willing to put the effort in.

It is not true that rewards are purely cosmetic. The New Ultimate drops a 635 weapon(same as current highest) but with an additional melding socket.

preach's come long ways since the days of watching ffxiv raids blind and trying to figure out what was going on

Yoshi P clears all content before it's released. Imagine where games would be if all lead devs took that approach...

Very good breakdown of the situation. As a comfortable casual I'll probably never do this level of content but I can appreciate those who do. I would just like to add that the offenders in this have completely lost the plot. They made the race about themselves, not the game.

@anders.2259

Жыл бұрын

Very well written! 👍 😊 And this have to be written over and over again as the elitist visions have destroyed many games today and make good people and new potential gamers to leave the gaming community.

Wow! I genuinely can appreciate how well researched and thought out this video was. Not long ago you gave XIV a try and now you've really become one of the better content creators for this game, already following your legacy as one of the best WoW content creators. Really enjoyed watching this, thought everything was spot on! ❤

Where did that Lich King fight video come from? I want to watch it.

@TheChunkeyNinja

Жыл бұрын

Its a trailer from hearthstone - sadly there's only a little more than what I showed. My copium is that trailer was a demo for a possible animated show down the line like arcane.

some of those memes you scrolled by so quickly were absolutely hilarious

There is money in this now, many of these teams are professional players. That's going to lead to a lot more cheating than there used to be. Any team going for world first should have to live stream the entire try, every time, or they do not get credit when they succeed. They should have to prove they didn't cheat. It's sad but here we are.

@freeborb

Жыл бұрын

there is money in FFXIV WF?

Streaming does not prevent the use of plugins, those overlays/plugins can be hidden from streaming software unless there is another camera pointed directly at the streamer's monitor. MrHappy's team had a member; MazzXIV (who was also streaming) who got caught using plugins (it telegraphed the boss' AoE) on stream. For those who look at the JP team member's apology and think it is a justification for cheating and blame shifting to western players, in my opinion; is missing the bigger issue, which is everyone in a FFXIV World Race is cheating (which includes previous world races for savages/ultimates) however in the words of my Company Sergeant Major: "It is not crime if you are not caught".

Really feel like FF needs to add built in shading options and more in depth UI customization, including colour choice. The games combat needs no addons, addon's are a thing because of a short coming in the game, and FF's combat has almost no short comings compared to some other MMO's (in terms of play-ability without addons) but the UI's colouring definitely leaves something to be desired.

One big argument for FF14's teams not streaming is because a big part of the complexity comes from figuring out the strategy, not the execution. So if you stream the strategy, the other teams can copy it with little effort. WoW's complexity comes from execution. You can't just copy a strategy and make it work, you need to be good enough to do it. FF14 doesn't provide that level of complexity in execution.

@LC-sc3en

2 ай бұрын

Fair, but this can possibly be solved by streaming private and then making the VODs public a certain amount of time after the 10th world first team has placed?

This content is made to be difficult so difficult a majority of the community will never complete it. Cheating devalues the achievement, devalues the competition and devalues the purpose of this content. Their is no point in making difficult content which people say FF needs more of if it's plainly obvious a good portion of that high end niche cheat.

Doing raids in WoW feel pretty bad when you know you are effectively cheating with add-ons like DBM.

@kye4216

Жыл бұрын

It’s clearly not cheating or there wouldn’t be such a skill gap even when everyone uses addons

@jnx4803

Жыл бұрын

@@kye4216 DBM is automating, and doing your job when it comes to remembering what is happening, and when. It's even warning you when you are standing where you shouldn't, or when you aren't doing what you should do. It's literally cheating.

@lost1head

Жыл бұрын

Another insane take from people who never played WoW. How can something that is *allowed by the rules* be cheating? Thats like saying playing soccer in shoes instead of kicking the ball with bare feet is cheating.

@absolstoryoffiction6615

Жыл бұрын

Amusing... Since when did Blizzard/WoW ban Mods? Last I checked, they still have a Modding section. They even designed encounters in the expectation of Mods as well.

@xRichhhx

Жыл бұрын

It's painfully obvious you havent played WoW and are just parroting some insane L take you've read somewhere

WoW doesn't really have a race to world first, we all know liquid is going to get to the final boss first then choke and lose to Echo.

Didn't blizzard make it so weak auras weren't as strong as they were in legion or bfa?

I think the word "shame" should be used when describing careless behavior. A murderer isn't "shamed" into a prison sentence. Getting caught cheating will cause negative consequences 99% of the time. It just makes it sound like what they did wasn't bad enough for people to be mad. You get caught, you get called out. If anything they "shamed" themselves into deleting their accounts.

@Supersenkel2

Жыл бұрын

Tell that the 5chan users doxxing and threatening them

Yoshi P. being disappointed is the part that hurts me the most.

In WoW, if you are using an ultrawide monitor your FOV is way way wider. Is it the same in FF14?

@TheOneGreat

Жыл бұрын

Yes, it is.

It's really simple... follow the rules. I don't see how it's hard? Follow. The. Rules.

But the problem with streaming it is that when one team figures out a mechanic, so does everyone else. And that world first cannot be claimed unless you streamed it, that feels kinda gatekeepy. I am someone who wishes wow did not have addons, and if FFXIV starts allowing addons, I don't think I will play it anymore. I quit raiding in wow because I had to download tools that did the fights for me, and that is everything but fun. Absolutely hated every second of having DBM installed, and it was required by all raid teams.

@Shiirow

Жыл бұрын

knowing a mechanic is only half the battle, you have to understand it and know how to counter it. if just seeing someone complete an encounter ensured victory, the clear rates of ultimates would be 100% of all players.

The sad part for me is that, this completely killed my hype for watching Ultimates or even Savage raids. Not only were they caught, but so we're many others like MrHappy with the RDM that's a balance discord admin using the cheat that shows telegraphs. Almost all of the biggest FF14 creators came out either defending cheats or basically admitting to cheating constantly and knowing everyone does it. And it's like, what is the point of harder content when all the top players are cheating to make it easy? And some of these cheats, without exaggeration, can make an Ultimate easier than a normal dungeon and there's no way to know who's using what and to what extent. It feels like you saw behind the curtain so now all the prog videos just look fake, all the videos complaining about balance, content being too easy, or just talking about how to play jobs well and stuff, it's fake, almost everyone is cheating or knows people in their groups that are. And the statements about not covering offline teams is pointless smoke and mirrors, MrHappy's team got caught full stop and they didn't even drop the RDM or face consequences and you know it's because they're well known because everyone was talking about it. Unless every member is streaming at all times while also only using console, there's no way to actually tell anymore, and even then, they will find a way.

@skylarsimes8

Жыл бұрын

Not ONE creator defended cheats like Splatoon (the on happys RDM got caught with) or zoomhacks etc. The only addons people have wanted were stuff like buff timers and what not which have been put into the game. The ones using those stupid cheats are laughed and not condoned

@mismismism

Жыл бұрын

@@skylarsimes8 You are factually wrong. There have been people defending things like zoomhacks and other hacks they take upon themselves to deem minor like Xeno, Arthars, and most of that scene tbh, they all have essentially said they know people directly using far worse cheats than what got that team banned. Not to mention, but again, MrHappy, the RDM was using telegraph hacks, got called out and admitted it, the team knows what he did and continued with him and I guarantee you, no one is going to call out MrHappy or the others on that team publicly even though most of these same people have been very outspoken about people they don't know. Like Xeno just had this whole thing calling out view botters for cheating the system but now that his friends might be in the crossfire, suddenly he's downplaying cheating. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how small it is, the fact is, every group is cheating and there is no way to know how much. They all could be using Splatoon or whatever and acting brand new like they usually do until they start getting caught. That's the problem, you can't take any of them at their word anymore.

@skylarsimes8

Жыл бұрын

@@mismismism Mr.Happy isnt the RDM. That was Mazz and they were 5 phases deep, it was either replace and reprog or continue and acknowledge he used it and force him to stream which they did. They were in a no win situation fucking period and tbh i wouldnt want to reprog 14mins of fight while PTO was nearly gone. Xeno and Arthars dont defend the zoom hack but they DID say there are even worse examples. And Xenos outside tanking stuff in 14 is a fucking idiot, though the embedded stream thing is a different can of worms thats not prevalent to this convo. But not ONCE did they ever say zoom hacks are ok, just that there is even worse being used. Also I know for fact Mr.happy doesnt even use ACT. You got all of NEST that doesnt cheat. llamatood, woops, and i dont think ive ever seen Xenos as much as i disllike him doesnt use a cheat 3rd party tool outside damage meters. Plenty of people play without them, actually id say far more play without the super cheaty stuff. Yes non streams teams 100% use these tools and maybe some streams teams do but hide it but ill take Kindreds word of no tools over a non streamed clear

@mismismism

Жыл бұрын

@@skylarsimes8 This is the worst take. That other team all lost the clear and glam and deleted their accounts behind one player getting caught using a zoomhacks but MrHappy and finds out an admin from Balance Discord was using telegraphs, they all benefitted from his cheating and they just act like it didn't happen? That's BS, if you find out a party member is cheating then you either bite the bullet, kick and report them or you quit racing. He's one of the biggest faces in the community and he's on stream with a cheater during a second cheating scandal. There's no excuse, you don't get a pass if you didn't directly cheat if you know others on your team are cheating. It's the same problem and it's hypocritical based on his past statements on stuff like this. Same with Xeno and Arthars and the rest, you don't get to pick and choose which cheats are ok and which aren't and again, looking the other way when you know people that are doing this, especially as a face of the community, makes it worse because you're condoning it. And yes, Xeno fully defended it, he essentially said they need to just let people use them and the punishment is too harsh and just sugar coating right after he just went off about how he doesn't respect view botters when it's the same moral issue, not even, because view botting isn't technically even breaking any rules while Yoshida has been out here saying this breaks TOS and screws up the content for a decade now. Again, just because the streamer in the party doesn't visibly cheat on stream, when you know people on your team are cheating and you're benefitting off of that, you are willingly cheating by association at that point. This should not be difficult to understand, if one or more party members have telegraphs on or zoomhacks or whatever, the whole team will have more info and clear much faster and easier than they should. That's also why there's almost no way to have a real race anymore. You can't expect every member to stream 24/7 and even if they do, a lot of these cheats can be hidden from stream, so you're saying those people don't cheat but you can't prove that, meanwhile there is proof MrHappy knew he had a cheater on his team and continued, so many of these streamers have said they know people cheating but they aren't reporting it, they're looking the other way at best and most likely, know their own parties are cheating, otherwise they wouldn't be racing cheaters. Xeno and Arthars both have said people do it to get an edge and be able to compete so what does that say about them? Or do you honestly think they are just righteous God gamers that would never and are just so good they're the only ones overcoming the race against cheaters without cheats? You cannot be that naive with the way they are all suddenly talking. But either way, Ultimate and Savage is pointless when anyone can have all these cheats on and you have no way to know who's actually playing the game properly.

@Bankai90

Жыл бұрын

You're just writing shit for the sake of it. They were mainly defending the clears. People who don't raid don't understand that what Unnamed achieved was fascinating and a massive achievement. And now casuals come out flaming them for the use of hacks, making them pretty much quit the entire game. Streamers were pretty much just trying to side with the "hackers" cause of this absolute toxic behaviour of FF's pretentious community. Noone is actually defending zoom hacks or splatoon. Every raider is against that. But they're even more against this hate train and shitting on probably the best players of this entire game. You can bet that probably the top 50grps were all hacking. That's trying to be the best for you. Noone is gonna lose their mind as streamer for their teammates hacking, especially since that would also just create controversy since not everybody knew about this. I raid. I'm a 99 parser and raider. Do I think you're better cause you cleared UWU without automarkers? No. I literally think you're stupid if you're not using them. It's obviously your choice as a group. But some mechanics aren't "hard", they're just badly made/telegraphed and wasting 40hours of prog just cause you're on a egotrip is no achievement in my book. And with certainty I can tell you that people who use these hacks, are likely already one of the best players of this game. And bad players won't even clear the easiest ultimate with them. If you cleared certain ultimate, you have my respect. I don't care how you did it. No tool will do it for you. (unless you bought them and we raiders will know if you did).

i never played FF to be honest but i remember playing Aion long ago and how hard it was to figure out everything little by little taking days till you can do it perfectly and just using a third party to just get it done without using your brain much . whats the point into puting in so much work to make the bosses so hard loses all meaning .

Fun down to earth fact: Asmongold bought a carry to Gladiator. Money/Gold bypassed the skill required to earn the title, and yet no one sees it as cheating.

I don't want people to have to delete their characters for things like this, as I don't care at all for "World First" racing. I'd like for people to just keep grinding and play normally and whoever wins, wins. But this kind of thing appeals to the sweatiest of the sweats. I don't see how it will ever be anything but an arms race. I assume everyone is cheating and being quiet about it, so it's all up to whether your data gets leaked or not. Good video 👍

@RokkitGrrl

Жыл бұрын

In Japan, they have to because of how toxic the Japanese 4chan community is. It doesn't matter if a cheater changes their name, switches to a completely new data center. Your character lodestone link is permanent and will reflect any changes, making it very easy for people to stalk your progress and activity and even friends without even having to log on. They will hound cheaters and anybody they think is weak in the game until they're forced to delete their character.