I find that whenever I'm writing a story without a plan, I'm naturally following the three/four-act story structure. I think somewhere along the way I forgot that story structures in themselves are not designed for story, they were designed BY story. Story structures are literally pattern analyzations of how most stories are commonly structured. Chances are, if you write without an outline, you'll still follow a familiar structure, simply because it's ingrained in us. The only thing that I do really struggle with is endings. My endings tend to be super underwhelming. I guess it's because I write series.

@valhatan3907

2 жыл бұрын

That is a great way to looking it. "Story structures are not designed _for_ story, they were designed *by* story." Sometime I forget about that.

@The-Strong-One

Жыл бұрын

My stories don't have endings. I have to make them because they were deemed necessary to.

I divided mine in arcs too. It's based on a specific character location and how they move in the world, so it's 6 arcs It's waaay easier to write like that

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

Literally makes it SO much easier! Like writing a series of connected short stories or novellas!

@katpaints

2 жыл бұрын

Seriously had NOT connected that at all!!! THE story within me is based on family history - and it is definitely more of separate arcs than one! I've been stuck - have had some major health problems, but I was still thinking and I could not pull things together even now that I'm better! Hmmmmmm...... more thinking.

@katpaints

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites YES!!! I know, cut those exclamation points, but you cannot hear my excitement nowadays without them! LOL! I haven't been able to flow from one thing to another because there IS time between events!

@i_dont_exist4348

Жыл бұрын

Same, mine is based on the mc who gets taken in by Royals and a LOT of stuff happens. Using arcs saved me. Before hand I thought writing my book would become impossible or I would have to cut alot of stuff

Five minutes in this video saved my day, my life, my crops-- thank you. Hearing you speak on things, I always get the sense that you understand how my wonky brain works. And that perhaps my brain isn't so wonky; I'm just working against it too much. Thanks as always.

I've become a fan of the five-act structure, which is specific enough to hold concrete action setpieces, but manageable enough that I can reduce the amount of outlining necessary when going into it, or on special occasions not have to outline at all. For example, I just wrote a piece for the CBC Short Story Prize. I ended up writing all 2495 words in a single day's work, and what shocks me is that the first draft is so strongly built and the jokes harmonize with each other so much that the usual revisions/polishing might not even be necessary before submitting it. Credit for this goes to how separate 500-word sections can create parameters for achieving a goal.

ah ive been needing this! shaelins always got us covered lmao

One of the things I really appreciate about your teaching style is that you’re cautious of absolutes. I tend to take advice seriously - and often literally - to my detriment. Your reminders that all of this is fuzzy and squishy is hugely appreciated and feels more authentic and right to me! Some craft advice can make me squirm… as if it’s a measure I must write to.

Damn the "resting heart rate" is a really nice way to view it!

As a discovery writer, I used Save The Cat after my first draft to figure out what was working and what wasn’t.

It definitely helps to study story structure. Reading novels is only a part of this, and I do find that reading books such as Save The Cat can be beneficial. As you said, we can appreciate the theory and ideas in such books, even if we have no intention of using them as templates.

I appreciate your treasure trove of advice and reassurance as a discovery writer. It reminded me that I like planning trips/vacations in a similar way. It's good to have some spots in mind, but I really find a lot of joy is in seeing what happens between those beats. I was never one for a step-by-step itinerary haha.

@katpaints

2 жыл бұрын

YES! One of my daughters is always an extreme planner. I joke with her that she would need a month to plan if she won the lottery! Her trips wear her family out but she has her very detailed itinerary and she sticks to it! This is not me! Thank you for this!

@katpaints

2 жыл бұрын

@@EmilyDavidson-hd3qz Isn't that a great discovery??? I have really not struggled with the blank page, either. I just start typing and things happen. I'm old... old school, too, and got my first typewriter for 9th grade - 1959. I had strong baby fingers back then. Once in a while I drag out the little electric and just clack on for a while. It always turns into story, but is usually plotless - just bits of conversation or whatever. It does get the juices flowing!

The absolute best, grounded, realistic, actually helpful writing advice. In all your videos you give a practical roadmap to how to be a better writer, not simply 'how to do x thing' and I appreciate it so so so so much! You are truly a blessing to authortube.

Mind blowing advice. Thank you so much. 💚 I recently accepted that I'm more an intuitive writer, than a plotter. Yeah, I love to plan, but I hate to have detailed outlines. Can't work with them. I stressed myself out with trying to have the perfect outline, that I kind of forgot how my brain actually works. It may take a long time until I write the first draft of my novel, but I can accept that. It's okay. 😊 I never thought of backing down my story into arcs. It makes so much sense. 👍🏻

you always post when I need help! thank you!

Been struggling with this a lot lately so thank you so much for posting this video!!!

Yay! New Shaelin video! Always look forward to Fridays Plus that is one of my favorite of your shirts!

Thos makes so much more sense! Thanks, Shaelin!

hi i was wondering what is a good way to make your writing feel dreamlike, like a fever dream kind of thing.

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I think the best way is to use heightened and figurative language combined with some more surreal or strange imagery!

@apocalypsereading7117

2 жыл бұрын

i think having unexplained narrative logic specific to the dream is a big help too, e.g. "We needed to go up the stairs so we started drawing a map."

@OrangeStripedGekko

2 жыл бұрын

If you can write in a kind of fragmented, stream-of-consciousness style, I find that works really well for dreamy situations :)

@Hermit_mouse

2 жыл бұрын

Read more magical realism. Wind-up Bird Chronicles. 100 Years of Solitude

@Jaantjuh1234

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe similar to writing a drunk scene? Vision could take a moment to focus, blurry, hazy views and thoughts... Colours that are brighter or iridescent, maybe even wafts of inexplicable scents that come and go?

Hello, I just reached the first major editing stage on my screenplay, which I discovery wrote, and am so pleased. Thank you for providing some of the motivation I needed over the course of drafting!

This is so validating and relieving. Thank you!

Great advice Shaelin. Thank you!

Oooh, this is exactly the video I was waiting for (binge-watched the other ones about discovery writing and plot in the meantime and now it's combined?) OMG 😍😅

Repelled by the complex, that’s me too! And it’s 100% the reason I’ve never been able to complete an outline despite having studied structure quite a lot. I’ve always thought I was a planner and but have now realized that it may be why I never make any progress. It kinda kills the creativity for me and I get stuck overthinking and being overwhelmed.

I just started writing and right now, I'm starting with a webnovel it's not great yeah but it's a start. :) I cannot work with plotlines, outlines are a pain to me. I was recommended your channel and this is the first video I've watched and damn. It's right on point. Love it, thanks Shaelin. consider me a fan :D

This looks similar to the outline for knives out.

I recently realized I had to returned to the start of my story to fix some logical and emotional issues to be able to continue from where I was atm and while I was reorganizing and added new scenes or lines it started to grow from inside out. It changed a lot for the better, but still has the same base and it's kinda satisfying to see the story becoming more complex. With basic story structures I found that I have the common issue (mostly in TV, but also in books) that it's way too easy for some stories to tell that X lovable/funny/important character will die just before the ending, it's not surprising or new or emotional in any way, it's the complete opposite for me.

I love listening to all your insights

Thank you so much Shaelin. Great information.

Thank you! I'm a plotter, but I find your advice immensely helpful.

This was absolutely the video I needed to get me back to working on this WIP I've been working on since 2018 (and has been rewritten and reworked too many times to count) and I hit a wall again as I'm rewriting it this time around. I'm going to try these tips because I'm a discovery writer and trying to pretend that I'm not is making it difficult to write

I’ve been trying to write a novel for a while but can’t seem to get much farther than a few chapters. Thank you for your great videos, you always make me feel like I can do it!

Hey! This was a very very helpful video in determining how I view my book. I love this video very much for that, it's very informative and easy to understand. Thank you a ton!

Thanks for another great video!

omg this just saved me from probably weeks of writer's block. "if something just happened to your character, it's probably time for them to act." here I was looking up how to plot because I was replotting the whole book (which I still need to do), but you're so right. I was wondering why the chapter was so boring. I was wondering what my characters even could do in their current situation. AND i was wondering how to make the MC the MC again because he's been getting overshadowed by the side characters this whole time. he literally just needs to do something. and I was thinking "oh, well all he can do now is wait. that's the only logical thing for him to do" but the entire book i've been establishing that he's chaotic and *doesn't* act logically most of the time, so I can have him get up and do something crazy and progress the story and just THANK YOU lol also i'm glad i'm not the only one that gets overwhelmed by thinking of my stories as one big arc. i do usually plot things out, but it's just a guideline and not a strict outline, so sometimes the story calls me somewhere completely unexpected, and i change everything, and then i get stressed because "what if it isn't following the grand arc anymore?" but that's not a problem for me to worry about now, and if i can find the smaller arcs i can put them together until I find the larger one, and that sounds so much more digestible.

Super Helpful Thank you so much! :)

I very much enjoyed this video and watching it helped me think about the novel I'm currently writing in a different way. I was wondering if you either have a video or could delve deeper into the idea of "Conflict with Legacy" as that term seems to describe a huge portion of my current novel.

oh these are great- thanks!

I had never heard of Save the Cat. Thanks to the video, I looked it up and realized that I intuitively followed it to a T. I'm currently at "Execution of the New Plan". As an intuitive pantser, I had no idea how close I am to finishing the story! Additionally, based on other writing tutorials, I was so worried that majority of my 2nd act was filler, but it turns out I just intuitively wrote "Fun and Games"! I'm so relieved that I don't have to remove, like, 1/3 of my book! Anyway, I'm guessing I subconsciously picked up this structure because I love cartoons and I'm now realizing that a lot of serial cartoon series follow it.

I also thought so much about plot structure and then I tried to create my own with my own understanding but then I had some questions, whose answers are cleared after watching this. Thanks.

A Shaelin video on my birthday!?? Best. Present. Ever!

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

Happy birthday!! 🎉🎉

your way of explanation and your facial expressions are very beautiful thank you so much to make it fully understandable to me.🤗🤗☺️☺️

I'm a discovery writer working on my first novel pretty much every day in some capacity. I created an outline, but I don't entirely adhere or follow it; I listed all scenes, but since it is character driven, I take that "skeleton" components, write a theme for a specific chapter and any new scenes/content it addresses, and after laying that, alter the skeleton plot points as needed to fit the context of the novel as I go along. Alum: molding it like clay to make the piece before trimming it down. Side note: I do use a table of contents as well. It's very helpful in controlling the length of each chapter and knowing what to expect. Hope this helps, and helpful video! P. S. my progress is I am an overwriter, but that's probably due to the pacing being in "real time".

You reinvented my method, which is based on applying the kishotenketsu structure to every subdivision (books, arcs, chapters, scenes, beats) pretty funny

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

Can I ask what the kishotenketsu structure is? I’ve never heard of it but when I googled it couldn’t find anything and now I’m curious!

@Kris_not_Chris

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish%C5%8Dtenketsu tldr; it breaks the structure of anything down (comics, academic papers, jokes, even sentences, into a four part structure that Japanese people tend to find interesting: Introduction, Development, Twist, Resolution is how it's typically translated. if you've ever read a four panel comic, this is the most common exemplification of the structure

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kris_not_Chris oh cool thank you!

I do art as well as writing. Every time I've tried to go mathmetician on a drawing, planning 'well if I do this it will mean this so I need to do that' or 'the horizon needs to be exactly this distance from the top' or 'I can only use these colors this way' it became a complete disaster before I even got the full idea on paper. I've found the same is true in my writing, outside of worldbuilding. Do what works for you, and don't let anyone shame you for it; you'll wind up not only with what you were hoping for but something you love

Discovery writing makes the writing fun, as you don't know what your characters will do yet, and the characters end up being more natural/believable. Problem is, this doesn't give you the optimal plot from start to end. A good workaround is to write until you have an inciting incident, escalating conflicts between the main characters, and solid stakes. Then map out a plot from start to finish based on the ideas you've unconvered. Then alternate between writing more of the story and restructuring/revising the plot, and editing the story to fit the improved roadmap.

you literally keep doing this and it's kinda freaking me out, but YET A G A I N you have uploaded a video DIRECTLY speaking to the thing i was JUST THINKING ABOUT. did you watch the 5x5 Neil Gaiman/Susannah Clark interview from today?? is that where this is coming from?? otherwise....... w h o a *Tim & Eric mindblown gif*

@blabbinglobster

2 жыл бұрын

Me, too! Exactly the same thing. It's surreal. Thanks again, Shaelin.

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

Tbh not sure what that interview is, but I filmed this over a month ago!

I think it's a case of "you need to understand the rules before you can break/disregard them"

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I don’t think discovery writing is really breaking the rules, it’s just a method of writing, but knowing the rules of structure certainly helps you write it intuitively!

@christiecakes014

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites oh, no I didn't mean to imply that discovery writing is breaking the rules. I meant that understanding the more "traditional" story structures (save the cat, hero's journey, 3 act, etc.) is important before a writer starts forming more "non-traditional" structures. I think that holds value for plotters, pantsers, and discovery writers alike.

I love Kishotenketsu (4-act structure) even tho I never use it. Sound complicated, but yeah, actually I never used premade plot structure before and making out my own. After knowing if Kishotenketsu exists, and its pretty similar to my usual plot structure I automatically like it.

Yes, Shaelin! Ah, everything you're saying is stuff I've suspected and wrestled with internally for the last couple years, but with everybody - e v e r y b o d y - under the sun talking about three acts and plot beats, I've felt like such a rebel. I first began to suspect that your typical story outline wasn't all it's cracked up to be after reading The Time Traveler's Wife. It has very little discernible plot progression, yet it is a highly engaging read. I decided to analyze it to improve my writing and found that, much like how you're describing Honey Vinegar, it has four distinct eras or arcs that explore different facets of the story. I've started picturing my own books more in this way and it tends to preserve a sense of motion, or maybe evolution, in the narrative, while also allowing a lot more freedom to simply explore he concept.

@Exayevie

2 жыл бұрын

P.S. This also makes me really excited for Honey Vinegar. It seems like my kind of story, truly.

This is exactly how I write. I know the Beginning and the End. But everything else I piece together with questions and sort of puzzle how we got there. If X happened then it happened because of Y. If Y had happened it's because F was resolved. And so and so forth.

Thank you!

It happens to me as well... I know what it's supposed to happen but I can't write it. And every single time it's because there's something off. Sometimes it's a minor change, sometimes I rewrite or move entire chapters, but every time I'm totally stuck, there's something that doesn't work. I find it curious because it seems to happen at an inconscious level

Good video.

My tip for pacing: go over your rough and decide what your story is. Then go over it again and cut out what isn’t your story. Your next draft is then basically the rough minus all the cut stuff. Personally, I find re-writing the whole thing using the cut up rough as a guide is much faster than trying to stitch together the rough draft and sand it down with edits.

My synesthesia has helped me divide my book into parts because the story changes color depending on the arc.

"Knowing the beats" is similar to how some great directors approach creating story

Needed! Thank you. I was looking up how to outline a novel because Am I Doing This Right? This Story is HUGE? Is This Even Story Structure? Thank you. Back to it, then.

💜

I love your videos - they’re always so informative. Can you link your book? I can’t find it on Amazon

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I don't have any published books yet, but I'm currently pursuing traditional publishing! My published short stories are all linked in the description!

I'm having a little bit of a tough time because I'm trying to write a book series. My plot was so good that I realized that I could serialize it and I don't know how much I should put in each volume, especially the first one.

I recently broke my novel into 7 acts, retroactively of course, since we're all pantsers. To mark the acts in my document, I created dummy chapters: Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Act 2, Chapter 4... I'll remove the Act dummy chapters before publication.

Honey and vinegar good medicine .👍

Should one use simple or bombastic Words in a fictional novel ?

I'm an intuitive pantser. But it works so far. Tgo;

This is the first video I saw of you, and I kid you not when I saw the thumbnail I thought its Shailene Woodley, and then I saw your channel name I was like bruhh. You look a lot like Shailene Woodley

Hey Shaelin, with the don't repeat the purpose of a scene. In my current WIP I'm wanting show a contrast between relationships between two environments and the people in them. However the main character is going back and forth between the environments and the dynamics aren't going to change too much other than escalating the existing attitudes. Would this go against that advice or would the escalation be enough of a foundation in your opinion to "circle back" ?

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I think only you can really know! The “don’t repeat the purpose of a scene” isn’t a hard and fast rule (like all things in writing) it’s just a guideline that I find helps me avoid redundant scenes. If you feel like the structure of your story necessitates something different, go for it!

@AYFlaws

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites ​ @ShaelinWrites Alright, I keep forgetting that they aren't hard rules but I definitely will keep it in mind for the same reason you do. And (at least for now) I do feel like the story structure requires the repetition so will go for it. Thank you for clarifying.

I know this is unrelated to the video... but there was a book in one of your old Recent Reads that is similar to what I'm attempting to write. It was in vignettes centered around a couple. I believe the couple's names were never revealed in the book. I can't remember what the main conflict was. I believe it was experimental fiction that was translated from a different language. Do you happen to know the title? Or which Recent Reads episode it was in?

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I think it’s You Are Eating an Orange. You Are Naked by Sheung-King!

Where can i Buy your books? I just can't find them

I need a tutor for novel writing

Thanks, Shaelin! Also, SYK, it's pronounced "vin-YETS," not "ving-ETS." :)

What about the character web 🥺

What do you think of the modern Novel's approach to chapters? I mean instead of consequences, your chapters can be independent but are pieces of a whole image, like a big photo composed by a mosaic of thousands of independent photos?

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I really enjoy this style, I use it in my current novel!

@Anouarraz

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites good luck, I wish I could enjoy reading you as I enjoyed listening to you.

I have long chapters, 5,000-11,000 words. But each chapter is broken up into sub chapters, 1,000-3,000 words. But the book follows My MC through three wars, two continents, one ocean, five countries and ten years.

Fractals. Interesting. I'll try it.

Hi Shaelin How Are You 😊

Hi I am high school senior. Can you make a video about how to write your college essays (common app ) ones. Plz pls

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

I actually didn’t have to write college essays for my program so I don’t think I can really help!

Can a non-human, non-being, inanimate object be the protagonist in a magical fantasy?

@Yohannai

2 жыл бұрын

I've read a story where the main character is an actual snowflake watching the world and thinking about what it sees as it goes through the cycle of water. It was a surprisingly good story, though the author went a bit uh, religious about it and either didn't know (its from a very old novella I found) or didn't care that water droplets cannot have babies that are also water droplets. You do you! Things happen to the objects we interact with all the time, I'm sure you can write a very interesting story with it!

Odd question but have you begun to query Honey Vinegar?

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

Not quite yet! It’s with one of my critique partners atm

@thenovicewriter3196

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites Will you document the process? I'd love to see how the querying process works. I was going to go self-pub, but recently decided to go trad-pub instead! Now I'm nervous, but I'm so excited for you, Shaelin! Oh, also, when you get an editor, can you make videos about the kind of "edits" pro editors ask for? I find those kind of things really useful as a baby writer. :)

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

@@thenovicewriter3196 I will, but I don’t plan to post anything about querying until after I have an agent! It’s a bit of a stressful process so I just want to keep to myself while in the midst of it, but I’ll share everything I can later on.

@thenovicewriter3196

2 жыл бұрын

@@ShaelinWrites Oh, that's such an understandable idea. I've seen most authors on youtube say they document the process behind the scenes, but only share anything about that online once certain parts of the process become fixed (ie. they get an agent, they start querying, they get interest in book, they go into auction, book is sold, etc) I'll be sending you good vibes until you land that agent!

Noice

LONG RANT: "Pantsers" vs. "Plotters" was a cute idea for a second, and then it became the most ridiculous misuse of writing terms I've ever seen. The fact is that MOST writers apply structure AND free write their stories. No matter how you begin, you eventually apply both types of tools/methods to get a story from first draft to polished draft. So saying, "I discovery write books" is usually bullshit, because it usually means "I discovery write a first draft" which is a mess, and then get it into tip top shape with structure. Similarly, "I plot books" is bullshit, because it usually means, "I plot my first draft but then when I actually start to draft the story, almost everything changes" so I just end of discovery writing the rest. In addition to not believing any writer is exclusively one or the other, I really hate the pretentiousness around discovery writers. They really do think they are MORE clever and MORE creative and MORE chosen to write a book than everyone else. I guess pretentious Stephen King has something to do with it, being as he's one of the few who I can recall actually insulting fellow writers (many of whom have won Pulitzers based on their plotting-first preference), while bro may be successful but can't even edit down his novel and infamously sucks at endings, which, hint, require structure, and things, like gasp, theme! Books don't have to be perfect to succeed, which is how someone who fails at structure and theme can still be a bestseller. Because all it takes is having a masterful understanding of a few major elements of story, which King does, mainly his impeccable taste in selecting high concepts AND his ability to populate books with hundreds of realistic "small town" characters, both of which are his trademark. But structure? Pacing? Knowing how to land a book ending? King could greatly improve. My problem around the idea of exclusively discovery writing a book is that I've actually never met a tried and true pantser, who gets an idea, and just writes it without any notion of structure. The pantsers, I've met are: (1) The "I don't structure my novel because instead of saying the word 'structure' I just say 'beats' which fools me into thinking I don't plot" Writer. This is the writer who swears they write-by-the-seat-of-their-pants and isn't bogged down by the boring structure and yet knows their beginning, inciting incident, midpoint shift, darkest moment, climax, and the ending" of their story. Beats are plot points. They are plotting! The most deliciously ironic part of this kind of writer is that they often use actual "plotter" terms as part of their process like "inciting incident" or "dark night of the soul" yet still don't think they plot! (2) The "I don't structure my novel because I don't write outlines, instead, I just read a ton or read every craft writing book, and studied structure so much it's now second hand, so my use of structure becomes invisible even to me!" writer. This is the writer who puts down outliners and plotters yet has often gone through a heavy plotting stage where they've read every craft book like it was a life-jacket and they were drowning in the icy waters of the Titanic. This type of writer knows plotting/structure so well they dont have to consciously think about it. But just because you now subconsciously implement plot/structure/beats doesn't mean you have to hide your adherence to any of this. It's okay to admit you plot! (3) The "I don't use plot beats, structures, or outlines because I'm super above that...UNTIL I get to my second draft, then natch I put those into proper place." While a writer like this is actually using plot/structure in the correct way (outlining or drafting something FIRST, then using plots/structure to refine the shape of that story), the problem comes in saying they have discovery written books (implying the entire process is discovery writing), when they only "discovered" the first or second draft, and then used plot/structure to refine the shape of the book, hence using both plotting and pantsing methods. Of course, by excluding the latter, they get "street cred" points of being super "muse-oriented" writers who just magically create books after being visited by leprechauns at night. When in reality, this free-spirited way of writing only got them a part of the way there, and then structure, plotting and outlining, got them the REST of the way, but SHHHH lets not talk about that! ;-) Sorry for the 'tude, but I hate the idea that a plotter is less creative than a discovery writer. As if sitting down to plot a book means you're suddenly getting ideas from a super secret book called "The book of ideas for plotters". Your ideas still come from your mind. You are still being creative. The difference is that you're being guided upfront by tried and true plot points or frames of structure. You're every much of a creator/creative type as someone who discovery writes a draft first and then has to reign that in with structure later. And speaking about the 3 act structure, let me tell you a little secret, as many slices as you cut a pie into, it's....you guessed it...a pie! You're not doing anything new by dividing a book into 4 quarters instead of 3. And it's a little funny watching you discover that writing a book if it's divided into parts is easier than managing a book you think of only as one part, because this is literally why the 3 and 4 act structures exist! So it's like naysaying something, and then thinking you discovered something new, but you're just describing what has already been discovered that you tsk-tsk'ed at a moment ago. :D Three Act or Four Act, it's all the same. The only reason people give a slight preference to three act structure is because that is how story, out in the wild, tends to work. Just take a moment and listen to anyone telling a story in RL. It will usually go something like this: "Let me tell you, in elementary school, I had a terrible teacher. (act 1). She was terrible because she did x, y, z. (act 2). So, you see, she was terrible and I've learned not to be like her. (act 3, theme). Popular structures (3 act structure, hero's journey) aren't created out of thin air. They look at how we already tell stories in real life (or how we write them), and then describe them back to us so they can become tools for newer writers who don't have to go through years of trying to "figure" out story, and just understand it from the get go, and move on to having a deeper CONSCIOUS understanding from that point on. Lastly, I want to reiterate that classic structure / beat sheets are not meant to be used as fill in the blank! That's what a lot of people get wrong, including diehard plotters. This is why you're saying, "I've never plotted out something using a structure like this." Nor should you! This is actually a misuse of a tool that is actually better at revising something that is already there. But what is "there," that can be outlined OR discovery written. The point is that once you have something to work with, you then apply structure or beats and that helps you refine the shape of the story, as well as helping you with pace and helping you identify weak areas in the story. A lot of the misunderstanding of structure comes from just that, not understanding how to utilize it. When people say, "Structure is for lazy people," what they are really saying is, "I don't understand structure, and the only people I've seen use structure have used it incorrectly." This is a failing on both the person who misunderstands and/or misuses structure, NOT on structure itself. In the end, every writer will write books based on what works for them, the problem I have is with the terminology, which is often used to hide parts of a writer's process and misguide newer writer into thinking one method or tool is "the right one" and the other is for lazy people. / gets off pulpit

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

In my experience people just call themselves pantsers/discovery writers to explain that they don’t outline their first drafts, not to say that they never consider structure in later drafts or anything like that. That’s why I consider myself a discovery writer. I do apply structure, I just don’t outline in advance. It’s totally true that most people use a mixture of both methods, but I don’t think saying you’re a discovery writer implies or is meant to imply that you never revise your structure or never think of plot structure, just as I don’t think saying you’re an outliner is saying you can never think freely or make things up as you go. Of course discovery writers think of plot and of course outliners make creative choices as they write, these are just terms meant to describe general methods, and I don’t think it’s fair to create very extreme definitions of these terms (such as “a discovery writer is someone who can never think of structure or refine structure at any point in any draft”) and then critique people for not fitting that very narrow and extreme definition, as it’s not how most people use the term and I don’t think they’re meant to be seen so rigidly. Just because pretty much everyone uses a mix of both methods doesn’t mean you can’t use these terms if you feel they fit. I think that for many people, it makes sense to call themselves a discovery writer because it generally describes how they write and it’s nice to have a quick term to explain their method, even if they still use structure, refine the plot, etc. Personally I’ve only ever heard these terms used to describe the first draft, not later drafts, and it’s not misleading to call yourself a discovery writer because you edit-I mean, everyone edits (at least those who are polishing to a publishable standard) and I’ve never met a discovery writer who wouldn’t admit that. Maybe they’re out there, but certainly not the majority. Though there will always be people who take it to the extreme, like the types you described, I think most people know these are just general terms and use them very broadly to describe, in the general sense, their approach to writing a first draft. I agree with all your points about how structure works, but personally don’t really encounter people trying to hide that they think of structure in their later drafts or even while discovery writing a first draft. (Stephen King is in another boat though, I’m not too familiar with him so can’t comment but have heard some opinions from him that I disagree with, however he doesn’t represent how all or most discovery writers approach their craft.) I’m sure these extreme types are out there, but every writer no matter their process has a different method and I’ve personally never met a discovery writer who took that term to mean “I never consider plot structures or refine the plot at all.” For me, that term just means I don’t outline my books in advance and like to figure it out as I write, and nothing more complicated. There are certainly elitist people on both sides of the equation, I’ve heard many times that a book won’t be good unless it’s outlined (bullshit) or that discovery writing is lazy or for writers who aren’t serious, but perhaps there would be less elitism if rather than making assumptions about what the terms discovery writer, outliner, pantser, plotter etc, mean for individuals and tried to find issue with these terms, we just accepted that these are broad terms and within them, each person’s process is unique and there’s no right or wrong way to write, and no reason to judge someone else’s process and how they describe it. (Also ftr, I don’t think I’m a genius or anything for writing with a four act structure nor did I “tsk tsk” the concept then turn around and use it. I know that a pie is a pie no matter how you cut it, but for this specific pie, it made sense to cut it into four pieces. Not sure why you had to be so condescending in explaining that, as if I don’t know what structure is.I just saw four arcs to the story while drafting and so thinking of the story that way made it easier to understand and pace. It’s just about what was useful to me while drafting, I don’t think I reinvented the structure wheel by any means and was not trying to say that I did. It was just something I found useful, so I shared it in case someone else found it useful. I never said plot structures were bad, all I said was that these were some tips for writing without an outline, which is not the same as writing without considering plot structure. I also want to be clear that I never said nor do I believe that discovery writers are more creative than outliners or that one process is better than the other, nor was I ever saying that discovery writers don’t use structure. This was just a video on tips for writing without an outline, featuring tips I found personally helpful, and that’s all. I agree with most of your assessment on how structure works, but if it was meant to be a counterpoint to what I said in the video, I don’t think I said or implied the things your comment is addressing, if that was the intention, as your issues with discovery writing aren’t things I expressed and I don’t actually feel that way about discovery writing myself.)

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

@@RS-de3ww haha I can guarantee that pantsers don’t think plotters outline every single detail in their stories. We know an outline is essentially a road map whose detail level depends on the author, and that it can change as the author writes. As pantsers we also know that we are plotting out a story and creating a structure, we’re just doing it in our minds as we write instead of before. Idk why OP is acting like pantsers don’t know this and are delusional about their creative processes, because we’re not and we know all this. Like you said, plotting is as simple as using an outline and pantsing is as simple as not using one, beyond that it depends on the person. I think outlining is great btw, it just doesn’t work for me personally.

@kaylajames9334

2 жыл бұрын

Wow. Um, okay??

@kaylajames9334

2 жыл бұрын

Wow… okay.

@abbiepancakeeater52

2 жыл бұрын

this is a weird superior complex.

outlines for me are a waste of time I don't use them I never outline my books.

you are so beautiful and intelligent and inspiring you make writing fun. Why have you started dressing and looking like a dorky boy? do you live in Portland or something. its not a bad thing to be pretty.

@ShaelinWrites

2 жыл бұрын

The simple answer to your question as to why I've started dressing 'like a dorky boy' is because that's how I like to dress. I feel uncomfortable and un-like myself in feminine clothes or with long hair, and feel much more comfortable wearing more gender neutral clothing. You're right, I am an intelligent, beautiful, and inspiring person! But the way I dress doesn't at all detract from that, nor have anything to do with my intelligence or skill as a writer or teacher.