Nice one! Now lets get correct about terminology: Overexposing is not pushing, but pulling (e.g. shooting an ISO 100 film as if it was an ISO 25 film).

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I regularly get things backwards. Thanks!

@therestorationofdrwho1865

5 жыл бұрын

You could still consider overexposing pushing though because in the end product it is pushing the exposure. technically what we call overexposing is actually letting less light in, because film starts off negative and then is reversed, so therefore letting less light in becomes letting more light in the end product.

@buyaport

5 жыл бұрын

@@therestorationofdrwho1865 No. Overexposing means choosing a longer exposure time than normal (more light), and underexposing means a shorter exposure time (less light). This is not a philosophical question, but about basic facts. Try it for yourself, if you don't believe it.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Buyaport is correct.

@enricodeharder4984

3 жыл бұрын

Overexposing is not the same as Pulling. For pulling you need to adjust development. "Pulling is essentially overexposing in combination with underdevelopment"

The weirdest thing about how much I like this channel, is that I don't shoot film.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I watch 8bit guy and techmoan and collect neither computers or audio hardware. I'm actually kinda flattered.

@VariTimo

4 жыл бұрын

SatanSupimpa Get a cheap film SLR off of eBay and start shooting which ever film they sell at you drugstore. It’s fun.

Yay! Finally, a scientific approach to an age old question! Great job

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much :)

I had a similar experience with expired Velvia (although I didn't realize it was expired at the time). I found that slide film can hold highlights a WHOLE lot better than it can shadows. I'm on team overexposure; never tried a hotter temp. I went through maybe 5 rolls of Velvia and Provia because I really wanted to figure it out.

I'm watching this video again after probably like 2 years and I don't remember the conclusions. But in my experience shooting slide film from like 2001-2005 and sending it to cross process, it was not necessary to overexpose, they were all between ISO 100 to 400. However, I shot one roll of Ektachrome 1600 that expired in 1995 on the Olympus XA2, set it at ISO 800 and the results where severely underexposed but where there was direct light it was decent enough and the shadows were completely dark

Thanks for your comments. I have a well-stocked refrig with expired slide film. I will surely get a lot of practice in testing your theory out. I will do this with an experimental approach and artist favor. I have used expired B/W film back in the 80's and 94% of my work has been very good. I have all the items needed, so I will just have to get started and with what is going on I will have plenty of time to do that. Thanks again for your opinion and results.

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words Lee.

Thanks for posting this, I've had so many people shit on me for recommending the "1 stop over per decade", claiming this only applies to C-41 or B&W. The results pretty much speak for themselves. All films (B&W, C-41, E6, etc) work because of light sensitive silver halide crystals which tend to lose sensitivity with age, so you overexpose to compensate for this. The dye couplers in color films (C-41 and E-6) are also less active with age, so you need to leave it in the color developer for longer to form the dyes, so it makes sense why pushing your development yielded better colors. At the end of the day, a little overexposure (sometimes even a lot of overexposure) can be fixed in post and still yield usable images. On the other hand, underexposure is almost always unsalvageable, even on fresh film.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I loved the "don't even bother crowd" cuz you know they didn't even try. Thanks for the comment.

Good day! First of all thank you for the videos!! i just bought a batch of 35mm slide duplicating film in 100ft rolls and your video just made my day! Colour "accuracy" can be obtained then also by increasing the bath temperature and developing time, that is very important to me, because the 3 x 100ft rolls i just purchased are rated 25 ASA and expired since 20 years. Lowering the exposure even further would make it impossible to shoot it handheld... Thanks again for a very interesting channel!

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Hey, thanks for the comment. I would still say overexpose by at least a stop, deving for longer may only improve colour but exposure has to happen in camera.

Exactly the video i was looking for - thank you :)

@AzrielKnight

2 жыл бұрын

You're welcome :)

I’ve got a silvery can of slide film rated iso 50 expired in 1980 something.... Tell me everything’s going to be okay...

@gnalkhere

3 жыл бұрын

Did you shoot on it?

@themightychippy3756

2 жыл бұрын

@@gnalkhere think I'm going to try and shoot it in the heatwave while we have really bright sun

I shoot at box speed but give it a extra minute in the colour developer! Really puts a punch back in the film (mind you that’s just for 15yo e100s not real old ektachrome like that) I find ill only over expose if I have to as just leaving e100s in the dev for an extra minute makes so much difference I don’t need to over expose

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Overexposing and overdeveloping do different things. I also tested a roll about 10-15 years old and 1 stop was ideal. If you're getting results you like that's fine but testing is the only way to know.

@burntoutelectronics

4 жыл бұрын

Azriel Knight over developing in the colour developer increases the density and punch of the image and that’s exactly what my e100s also needed as I wasn’t getting true blacks otherwise

With C-41, I add a stop per decade. With E6, I add 1/3 stop per decade - if it's been cold stored. I have some Kodak EPH 1600 for E6 and it's atrocious no matter what I do, but shooting this late '90s film at 250 and normal development time and temperature gives okay results. (Normal developing was called for when shooting at 400, so adding 1/3 stop per decade worked in this case too). Now I have accurate temperature control and will have a better idea of what's going on.

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

I am releasing a video today where I shot a roll of film cold stored for 30 years. I think you'll find the results interesting.

necroposting because the very first roll of film I ever shot was a roll of Kodak Elite Chrome slide film, 100 iso, 10 years expired. That roll came out with the same kinds of nasty color shifts you got in your shots (albeit not nearly as pronounced), but the amount of color that could be recovered with 30 seconds in GIMP was just extraordinary. I shot that roll at box speed, on an AE-1 with a light meter that liked to overexpose just a teeeny tiny bit.

Part of the problem with all those online answers, is that they always seem to be from people whose expired film was stored in a freezer the entire time. Even if they claim they didn't do anything special, there always seems to be an "except store it in the freezer" somewhere in their footnotes. Meanwhile, in the real world, I don't think any of us have actually bothered to keep random 30-year-old film in the freezer for that entire time. (Heck, I haven't kept my 10-year-expired film cold-stored.)

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Bingo, thanks for this. :) I also have a few people here saying, "well, I had ten year old film and it was fine at box speed" Yeah and underexposing by a stop would also look "fine". One thing that didn't make the cut was I did a strip of ten year old film, and you know what? 1 stop was best.

@shawnshawn3107

4 жыл бұрын

Azriel Knight really appreciated this video. I’ve been struggling with film for a long time and I think it’s attributed to me buying expired film exclusively and wondering why I’m getting horrible results. Now coming to the realization that I really needed to be buying fresh.

Slightly expired film (which is more common) can also saved by longer development (see the instructions of your development kit).

I took some portraits on 15 year old velvia 100f in 120 recently. I shot at 100, 64 and 50 iso. Can tell you that the iso 50 ones came out best, in fact they were quite nice. Only thing i would note is they were reasonably cold, and a little desaturated, but in warm light that was totally fine (and apparently 100f was just less saturated than standard velvia anyway). Unless it has been frozen most of its storage life it seems like overexposing is the go, as your brilliant video shows. Plan on shooting some e100sw soon too! Keep up the good vids man

I shot a bunch of 92 expired Revue super 8 film and had it pull processed as that reduces grain, and increases the colour a bit.

Very interesting test results.

@AzrielKnight

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Lester.

My experience: first few expired slide rolls- did what you did- one stop per decade, and over exposed one stop due to me not understanding what "latitude" meant at the time Here's the best one, from 2017 a 1990 expired fotomat slide at iso 12 - instagram.com/p/Bvtku1kl5Vd/ After hearing some of this different information, I sought out more opinions, and was told by an experienced expired film shooter that I should give it less light than color negative, so I calculated one stop per 15 years after the first 5- and here's an assumed 2006 expired provia at iso 80 shot in 2018- instagram.com/p/ButblPmFAQP/ I tried this again later in the year with a 1989 expired fujichrome 100 at iso 32- and actually got a call from the lab about the quality of the film. Here's an uncorrected scan (though fixing the levels did make it salvageable). www.photrio.com/forum/groupphotos/photo?photo_id=3869 So I was then told during this phone call I should over expose and pull process, and I tried this with another fujichrome 100 from the same lot. The lab owner told me he'd done this before and it worked, so I sent him a bracket test, and It did not work at all for me (no scans though). And finally, one of my photographer friends has told me to push expired slide film. So my conclusion: every expired slide roll has it's own rules.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing all that.

@jakewestbrook3214

5 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight No problem.

You also answered my question, should I even bother shooting it at all...

thanks for messing around on our behalf. clearly with expired film you need withhold any expectations and prob overexpose to some degree. not knowing what you gonna get is 100% part of the fun.

you did it you madman! Nice job -if you do any more slide film experiments could you just kind of briefly show the actual physical positives --that would be a kind of helpful control to how much work the scanner is doing

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment :) You may have been looking down, I did show the two I'm pretty sure.

@MrTrainsaw

5 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight okay cool, yeah no doubt i was, again thanks for tackling the subject

Great information

@AzrielKnight

Жыл бұрын

Thanks Rick!

shockingly incredible!!

Also, in case you're not aware, the blix step goes to completion. The purpose of the bleach is to make all the silver (even the exposed crystals) soluble so that the fixer can remove it. Color films rely on the dyes to for the image, the silver is only there due to it's light sensitivity and ability to activate the dye couplers. This is completely the opposite of B&W where the actual silver crystals make the image. One common thing people do is to do a bleach bypass, go straight to the fixer after developing. This prevents the fixer from removing all the silver and leaves the exposed silver grains on the film which results in denser negatives

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

So, is the bleach part juuust bleach? What happens if I use B&W fixer?

@1n5ane1

5 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight Commercial C-41 and E-6 (not sure if current E-6 still does) uses a separate bleach and fix step, powder press kits simply combine this into a "Blix" step for simplicity. There is some debate as to whether a separate bleach and fix vs blix yields better results. From what I've seen, the actual chemical in C-41 fixer and B&W fixer are the same (Ammonium thiosulfate), but there is a difference in the PH and concentration. You will likely need to dilute your B&W fixer down to use for C-41.

I did an episode on elite chrome on my channel, and was also targeting this question. I shoot it a box speed, +1 and +2 stops and developed at box speed. I also found over exposing beneficial, but not so much as 4 stops. I found that +1 stops was the best result. as everything else on the film community, there are a multitude of variables and they are very hard to control. shooting, developing, storing... it all has influence on the final result.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

How old was it.

@analog_process3156

5 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight idk... could be from 2008, but I had no box to confirm this. Would fall in the thumbs rule, but I have shoot fuji RH and applied the thumbs rule and it didn't work out so well. I believe it's either due to storage conditions, or due to the low latitude of slide. Highlights were totally blown.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Yeah if it was in the fridge you wouldn't have to push.

My experience only: slower speed iso film eg 32 or 25 degrades more slowly. I’ve shot 5-decade old Panatomic-X (32) at asa 16, developed normal times, or stand-developed, with good results.

The various color casts you came up with are caused by the three emulsions in the film aging at different rates and/or developing to different (than normal) degrees based on deviations in time or temperature. That's why some tests are green and others blue. At the age of your film, presumably stored at room temp, there is no way you can alter your development time or temp to bring the film back to a normal color balance. An interesting (to me) alternative test would be to compare a current slide film with the same film 10 years or more old, but stored (1) refrigerated ,and (2) frozen. That problem of course is finding films with the right history of storage.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

"there is no way you can alter your development time or temp to bring the film back to a normal color balance" no but you can make improvements. If I had enough film to do one 4 stops over at 115 I would have had some pretty stellar results from 40 year old slide.

I am the winning bidder on 2 bulk rolls of Kodak Ektachrome slide duplicating film. 5071. Is that the same thing? Nice photos. I have that same Beseler.

I have a few 100' slide duplicating film from 1997 box rated at 6 iso. I have shot it from iso 6-50 and tried some long exposures to get more of a push. The results have been consistently good with normal temperature and some extra developing time, up to a minute on the 50. I use my f1.2 normally and can get usable hand held shots with this film. I find a scan has a little magenta shift but the actual slide looks natural..

Very helpful! I’ve got some ancient fujifilm color positive film I’m going to try.

@AzrielKnight

2 жыл бұрын

Hope it works out John!

Epic intro. Awesome video, really enjoyed it.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Kate :)

Please do more tests on this, more Film types, different kits, times, temps? This is so nice

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks :) I did one on Double-X recently if you're interested :)

I've shot a roll of Ektachrome from 1983, what i did was Overexpose it like i would expired C-41 film. And i typically shot outside in the sunlight. Your roll looks like it might have been manufactured in the 1970s.

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

it does have that 70s vibe.

@Quiparounddreams1999

3 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight I know that design on the cannisters is from the mid to late 1970s, Kodak Changed the box design in the mid 1980s. I shot mine at ISO 100, originally it was 400 when fresh. But forgot to tell the lab to compensate during the developing process and the shots were very faded, but i liked how the colors shifted. It gave it a very beautiful vintage grain look.

Push/Pull refers only to development process, not exposure of the film whatsover (this term is referred to as over/under exposure)

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

I have been made painfully aware since this video. Considering making an update.

hi there! thanks for this great video! i also have a few expired slide films from afga (2008). I shot the first one at box speed and it turned out terribly. I'm now gonna shoot another one. I'm planning to shoot it at box speed again- but this time tell the lab to push the film 2 stops during development. Do you think this will give good results? I can also overexpose when taking the pictures, but then the sides at the perforations are not black like they should be (like your film). Which means i can't project them.

If the color temperature of the light you’ve used wasn’t daylight your test is inconclusive. ISO 400 daylight film looses two stops of light under tungsten lamps. Also I recently tried a lot of scanners and the V500 doesn’t stand a chance to my Canon M50 with a used macro lens. You should really look into DSLR scanning. NLP is awesome and I use Capture One for slides with amazing results.

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

hmmm, invest another grand to shoot garbage film, let me think on that ;)

Good job

@AzrielKnight

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

I had some expired Kodak Gold 200 (about 25 years old) and my results from a photo processing center came out mostly with high amounts of yellow and some images came out in a vibrant purple.

Ive been shooting some old 120 film but developing it using hc-110 and c41 have yeilded emulsion lifts should i decrease the temperature or the time in the development tank?

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure.

Thank you for your precious infos! I have several kodak EPP 120 rolls (1980-2000). I have exposed one of them. The image is very light as a new overexposed reversal film. A photo, due to a technical mistake, was not exposed. Here instead of deep black there is a medium gray. Give me any advices to expose other rolls. Thanks in advance.

@AzrielKnight

2 жыл бұрын

Best thing to do for maximum results is shoot a few frames at different exposures, cut that off and develop on its own. Then shoot the rest based on the results.

A video I have been waiting for awhile really good video I think when I send my provia 400f to the lab I'll as to push it one stop as I shot is as box 320 and the film is 20 years old

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Brian!

i found an unexposed revue chrome S18 ASA50 (needs to be processed E4) next to many many slides at my parents basement. i shot some images from my nephew and nieces just like my father took pics of us children back in the days... ;) with the same Chinon CG5 SLR which my daddy was shooting back then. ... but the thing is: it is impossible get this roll processed, since E4 does not longer exist ... sadly. do you have an Idea? do you think rodinal would get some images in any way out of this film?

Good on you for taking the time yo do this. I think there should be a footnote to that rule of thumb that after 2 decades old just go black n white dev on it

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I actually thought the results for this (closer to 40 years) gave acceptable results. I didn't even colour correct. A matter of taste I guess :)

As of right now I don’t home develop my E6, how many stops should I tell my lab to push it in development?-or is changing the temperature different from pushing? Apologies for my ignorance

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

Hi Aubrey. So i said in the video push but i meant pull. I would divide my iso in half for every decade expired on my cameras meter. So 20 year iso 100 becomes iso 25. The lab should dev as normal.

@aubreymilowski680

4 жыл бұрын

Azriel Knight cool thanks!

Great to know, as I just found 8 rolls of various Ektachrome, with ASA's from 64 to 200, expired in 1976, and 1980. Will give it a try, thanks Do you know a way to process Kodachrome, same eras?

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

I think the only way to develop Kodachrome now is a positive B&W.

Shooting slide film gives nice color if done properly, but slide film has a lot less latitude (less forgiving) when exposing over or under compared to color negative film. I was surprised that you developed it with a higher temperature than what Kodak recommends as usually you have to keep the developing chemicals within a strict range or you can get strange results like color shifts, grain, light or dark slides. I preferred shooting color and black white film due to the larger range in tonal contrast quality and more range in film processing. Slide film was easier to have it processed at a store then at home way back when. Most people shoot negative film so you could have prints. Like you handheld light meter with digital readout, I own a Minolta one that is older with just a dial, but very accurate on exposer.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment Robin. I haven't shot much slide but I like the challenge.

Hello, I was thinking on shooting on a 1992 expired 35mm ISO 50 slide film, but cross processing it. From what I read, cross processing a slide film supposedly increases contrast and exposure; so in this case should I still overexpose it or should I be closer to box speed? Thanks

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

To be honest I don't have enough experience with cross processing to answer that.

Good stuff! Thanks.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you :)

I have some velvia 50 that expired in 2013. I dont develop e6 either. How would you reccomend I shoot it.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

man tough call. How was it kept?

@shukugroms6021

5 жыл бұрын

@@AzrielKnight in a bag in a closet I am pretty sure. It was my neighbor's

Very cool test ! Was this developed in E-6 or C-41

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

E-6, and thank you.

Longer and higher temperature would be the best.

Good work.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks Martin :)

I saw this reddit post.

I've got a twenty year old 100 speed Ektachrome. Are you saying I should be shooting it at ISO 25 by this general rule? And possibly increasing development time (minus blix time)?

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I think for sure overexpose 2 stops would be a safe bet. So yea iso 25 (not easy I know) The rest I need to do more tests on before I can recommend it.

@talleyrand9442

5 жыл бұрын

Azriel Knight Cool. I thought that was the general rule but good to know more seeing it tested out like you did. Amazing

❤️ ❤️ ❤️

Man I wish I had this Information when I was shooting expired ektachrome 400.

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Not good results I take it?

1 stop plus 2 degrees per decade!! Sounds like a plan :-)

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Further testing needs to be done.

Tomorrow im shooting 1969 ektachrome - gonna show the results in about 1 month

@shawnshawn3107

4 жыл бұрын

eaty c What were the results?

Why do you call a positive a negative?

Wait you should have developed it in E6 to see if there's any difference

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

Sorry can you clarify?

I see ppl are divided into two camps: box-speed and overexpose. I'm in third one apparently. It's called "buy a bunch and waste the first roll" lol. Seriously, so far I tried out Agfa and Fuji negative film stocks expired by 1991 (4 boxes of each from same eBay seller). Both show completely different results at same exposing conditions. Agfa is great with +1.5 stops and keeps amazing bleached colours while Fuji gone almost monochrome and need at least +2 stops. I suppose simple reason to that is that storing conditions were not the same.

I just (like half an hour ago) picked up a fully functioning Olympus i-10 with a roll of APS film in it. the roll has been shot.. can you do a video on APS film ? ... pretty please

@AzrielKnight

5 жыл бұрын

I have done several :)

I have to say people are very egoistic when it comes to shooting expired slide film. Even if it’s proven- they continue claiming shooting it at box speed is the best way…. It isn’t

3:28 Haha😂

@AzrielKnight

4 жыл бұрын

hehe, the irony is I meant PULL the film, but I think people figured it out.

Always overexpose its better to do so.

"Bleach Fix mix" Blix BLeach fIX BLIX

@AzrielKnight

3 жыл бұрын

yes.