Great video, many thanks! I am experimenting to record piano since over 40 years and I prefer for classical music a combination of room mics and close mics. The main problem is always the room. If you have a good room then maybe 4 mics can be enough. I use at least 6 or 8 - also one bass mic under the piano. This gives a special heavy sound. But as you said, there is no best solution, depending on the instrument, the music, room and the player. All best wishes and thank you!

Excellent tutorial, undogmatic, approachable. Thank you very much!

This is one of the better videos on the subject. And it is an extensive subject area. You've hit some of the high points, but it would require more mics and a lot more time rto exhaustively cover this subject, as you did note. Favorite of these: ORTF Black close distance, no reverb. Amethyst picks up the harshness of certain stick-out frequencies (or improperly voiced hammers?) whereas the Black hole blends those in better. Could be the mic or the individual piano. You should, as well, consider A B fairly close, positioning the mics just above plane of the lid, pointing down at from at or just outside the piano frame curve. Puts the mic at about 6'-7', This avoids the pick up of the cross projection of sound waves projecting horizontally from the lid reflection, the lid is good for a live audience to hear an unmic'd piano (obviously the designed purpose) but for recording, especially from close, a confusion of sound waves projecting vertically off the soundboard and horizontally from the lid. Some engineers just remove the lid, problem solved. Player position miking is also a good choice, (there are dozens of combinations, you hit on some of the more popular. ) I would have liked to have heard a Blumlein technique, as well.

Justin you put together a very informative video. It's very important that you emphasize the approach and what to look for rather than "this is the correct placement of a piano mic". You see a lot of videos on a KZread where instructors take the liberty of making broad generalizations about mic placements. There are so many factors so it's a crucial to learn HOW to think and not WHAT to think. Also this kid is a killer piano player!

@SonicScoop

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for the kind words Mario! Exactly what I'm going for. Agreed about the player! 🙂 -Justin

Very nicely done comparison. Your artist did a wonderful job of playing the passage the same way over and over. Really liked the Amethyst A-B pairing, but all the techniques have value in context. I've also used a single mic from floor level, pointing up at the soundboard behind the pedal lyre, which gives a great overall sound. Have to be sure the pedals don't squeak when used, but pretty much eliminates any damper or hammer noise. Other single mic techniques are to aim a mic into a plate hole, lay a mic horizontally atop the plate (at the rim curve) aimed toward the strings, or mount a PZM/boundary mic underneath the lid. Use a piece of foam between plate and mic or attach the PZM to a strap wrapped around the lid, to eliminate rattles, scratches, or adhesive marks. The lid can be closed with the PZM method with no adverse proximity effects. Another 2-mic technique is to look over the shoulders of the pianist. DPA and Earthworks both sell dedicated piano 2-mic systems. Helpenstill make a pickup system with no microphone at all. No need to unscrew a grand piano lid; that's a difficult process in best of circumstances. Grand piano lids are held on by hinges that have a pin that can be removed easily (when the lid is down!). Have an assistant on hand for removing and placing lid back on. They are heavy, and one does not want to scrape the bottom side against the portion of hinge attached to the rim. The music desk can almost always be removed, or at least laid flat. Some key covers can be removed easily, but Steinway and Baldwin cannot. For micing a vertical piano, try aiming mics at the backside, or down into the instrument's open top lid, or use a PZM mounted to the closed lid. And of course, have a qualified piano technician (like myself) service the instrument before the recording session. Tune to fit the context; big octave stretch is nice if recording solo piano, but use tighter stretch if playing with other instruments that don't have a piano's inharmonicity. Plus have the tech watch out for and quiet any extraneous action, case, pedal, or bench noises. Find a Registered Piano Technician at PTG.org.

@nerdsunscripted624

Жыл бұрын

I came to the comments to leave a few paragraphs, most importantly my favorite technique of mic’ing the acoustic holes in the plate, and removing the lid via the 2 (sometimes 3) hinge pins. But you got everything covered! Cheers from a fellow piano tech, I’m a bellyman in the Steinway restoration department

A tremendously helpful video thank you! A pleasure to see such a talented young man at the keys, demonstrating such dexterity and fluidity!

Very nice and perfect playing from the young artist. Learn a lot from your video on the sound qualities of different mic positions. Thank you so much. I like the classical piano sounding of the medium mic distance in the beginning of the experiments with life ambient acoustics. The sound of the close mic distance seems compressed for classical solo piano genre.

Thank you for highlighting the pop vs classical taste issue. Playing (and recordnig) both styles, I will no longer feel guity about the dilemma!

This is awesome! You’ve given us the opportunity to learn a lot about piano mic’ing.

Perfect timing for this video! I’ve been recording my piano with one AKG C414 but just purchased a second one. Can’t wait to experiment with these stereo techniques. Thanks for the great insights as always. I’m still relatively new to the game and your videos have helped immensely with my music production so far.

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

Great to hear Ryan! Thanks for watching. -Justin

Man, I have needed this video! I think that you can do a lot of these techniques on an upright if you remove the panels

For everyone that says they needed this video 🤙 lol I’ve recorded and produced my own music for a while now but in my new album I’m wanting to record this song using this baby grand and I’ve attempted 3 times and have failed all 3. It comes out peaked even when I set the mic input low, so my wavelength is not peaking but the sound and recording is peaking. Such a challenge. I’m gonna do this

@SonicScoop

3 ай бұрын

Piano can be tricky. Fast attacks on these complex waveforms, particularly in the lower and middle registers, can often distort smaller speakers. You may end up hearing distortion on decently recorded pianos that aren't clipping on laptops and phones and other cheap speakers. But it's not the recording that's clipping technically... it's the speaker! You may have to work on softening the attack substantially during mixing, or carving out problem frequencies, and settling on lower output levels than might otherwise be ideal. I hope that helps, Justin

My son is performing a Chopin concerto soon and the event will be recorded professionally, so this is very good info- thanks!

@SonicScoop

6 ай бұрын

So glad it was helpful! -Justin

I haven't read all the comments, so this might have been talked about already. The first mic technique you illustrate with the two Black Holes is not XY, its Blumlein, a technique I use often with acoustic ensembles.

@SonicScoop

Ай бұрын

Nope, it’s XY. :-) Blumlein is an XY array with both of the mics in a bidirectional polar pattern. These Black Holes are cardiod only, so it’s XY, not Blumlein. Hope that helps! Justin

Thank you for this great video. I am playing around with mics positions and looking for video exemples since quite a lot of time . This is probably the best video! My taste goes to the close XY configuration I think that the sound looks natural and precise at the same time. In addition it is easy to implement for amateurs like me. Best wishes.

@SonicScoop

Жыл бұрын

So glad it was that helpful! Thanks, -Justin

This was excellent and so is your teaching style. Thank you. I learned a lot.

Very helpful. Excellent video. Thank you!!

Thank you for this great video. I tend to prefer the Black Holes in all placements. My favorite is "close to hammer" Black Hole, without the ambient sound from the Amethyst (are they too far ? i feel they blur things rather than opening the space), or AB black Hole close distance for a more natural sound. I am not judging in terms of recording standards, just my feeling on this special situation. Black Holes Medium Far ORTF was my favorite for the room.

Any advise as to subdvide percentage in the mix when using two or three microphone sets together for a jazz solo piano?

Whoa! Those Amethyst mics did that piano great justice. The Black Hole mics were just too bright for my liking. However, and to be fair, I realize that these recordings were not in the context of a full mix, so my preferences might differ in that type of scenario.

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

I think they sound great as is just listening by themselves. But I’d say that in the context of a finished release-especially in a pop context with multiple instruments-the sound is going to want to go brighter. It is very common for pianos to be EQ’d a LOT in dense pop mixes, EQ’d a bit in sparse pop mixes, and sometimes EQ’d a little in more traditionalist styles. The most common EQ moves in popular contexts are to cut some lows and low mids. And the denser the mix, the more that gets cut. I like different things about each of the mics. Hope that makes sense! -Justin

I can't say. Except for a couple of them they're all usable. They seem to each have virtue(s)!

I really liked the bass from the A-B microphone techniques. Some of the distance mics didn't capture the presence of the instrument.

Polar patterns? Mid-Side is amazing!

It was hard for me to take issue with any of these techniques besides maybe between choosing the opposite extremes of the close/far mic placements. I like the natural sound of the far micing but I also like the intensity and stereo separation of the close micing. Perhaps for my situation, I will be drumming next to the piano player, so I suspect close micing would work better in order to get more isolation and hopefully some more intensity in the lower register too.

For me, I like getting an even stereo spread, and that depends on what is being played. Some of the AB sounded nice but where too unbalanced to one side for me. XY doesn’t give me the width I like on piano most of the time. So for me, on this piece, I would go for a close wide AB and then two far mono 8s for room depth at like 30%. But that’s just me :D

Sensei!

Useful. Thanks 👍

I have only one Tascam DR100 mk3 recorder with two onboard stereo mics. I will record classical music. What Placement You recomended ? Thanks

Out of curiosity, what reverb were you using at 11:30?

Hi Justin, thanks for another great vid. Question please: when compressing an acoustic piano (mixing), which type of compressor do you recommend - optical, FET, VCA etc. Thanks!

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

Great question. I don’t think about compressor type at first as much as I think about compressor function and envelope-attack and release times. Once I’ve decided on that, selecting the right type of compressor (or compressor settings on a fully variable compressor) becomes easy! For piano in a pop or rock context where you are more likely to compress there are two very good approaches: 1. Minimalist compression with a lower ratio. This MIGHT be a faster attack Vari Mu or VCA compressor if the sound needs to be smoother with more controlled transients. OR a slower attack opto or VCA if it needs a little more life, vibrancy and detail. 2. Parallel compression. This is going to be relatively hard compression with a fairly high ratio and fast attack time, often with a VCA-maybe a FET or a Vari Mu if the character works. But the big thing here, is that with parallel compression you are going to compress a lot, and you are going to make the parallel compressed signal very very bright. Then, you fold a little of this in with the main signal. In general, in the dense sections of a pop or rock mix, the piano will need a LOT of compression and brightening EQ. While this can be done directly on the piano track, I find I get more natural sounds more easily by doing it in parallel. I might even do both approaches in a very dynamic style of production. If there are sparse sections, I would be likely to just use the minimalist approach. And when we get into a really dense section, I would be folding in more and more of that bright parallel compressed channel, and maybe even backing off on the more full-bodied and minimalist piano track if needed. I go into great detail on this approach, and approaches to setting compressors more generally, in the Compression Breakthroughs course. There are a lot of good audio examples on piano compression techniques-and every other instrument-in there. Definitely worth it for that section alone! But of course it has that kind of thing for every single instrument group you can imagine as well :-) Plus exercises to help you hear and set compressors with confidence every time, do you don’t have to ask me any more! Hope that helps! -Justin (PS: Full compression course is here if that’s useful: compression breakthroughs.com )

@bradferguson9840

2 жыл бұрын

@@SonicScoop Thanks very much for the detailed answer, Justin. 🙂 I'll check out the course.

@redemptionhillchurch-whitt2250

Жыл бұрын

In general, piano doesn't take to compression nearly as well as guitars, vocals, and drums. I find that most compressors compromise the sound quality far too much (if having mic'd a grand piano). Two compressors I've had great results with have been the TDR Kotelnikov GE and UAD's Fairchild 670. Both sound VERY different, but give a controlled compression that suits piano well -- without damaging the tone.

Wonderful video. Thank you. Have you used a dynamic cardioid pair to record a piano? Seems like the preferred choice for piano mic'ing is cardioid condensers, but if you're not in a sound treated room, would you use a cardioid dynamic? Where would you place a pair?

I believe you mixed up blumlein and XY right ?

From my experience and also in this video the position chosen for "ORTF/XY close distance" doesn't sound nice in the mids to me. I would always place the microphones close to the lid prop where I find the grand piano more balanced sounding. Love the sound of the "Two Pairs"-combination at the end!

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

The two pairs is one of my favorites too. It works really well with an AB pair close up as well. Maybe even better! I didn’t want to smother people with like 30+ examples of all the possible arrangements but these ideas are a good starting point I think. -Justin

Would have been nice to see a couple of examples of using just two mics, as more of a budget-friendly approach. They're nice microphones but given that the cheapest one goes for about $1000 USD it's quite unlikely that a solo artist would be able to shell out that type of cash just for microphones. The microphones alone cost $4000+ USD altogether. Otherwise, a very informative and useful video!

@SonicScoop

2 ай бұрын

Hi there, almost all of these examples are just using two mics at once! The four mics are up there only so you can compare two different stereo mic approaches. Also: These techniques and principles will work with ANY mics, whether you're spending $100 or $10,000 or anywhere in between. That said, JZ have special direct sales a few times a year where you can get MASSIVE discounts on these mics. You can sign up for the SonicScoop email list at our website to find out about when they happen. I hope that helps! -Justin

@r.f2173

2 ай бұрын

@@SonicScoop Ah I see. Thank you for your response, Justin!

Much appreciated

Favorite : 1/ the very last one (one pair over the hammers + one far away) 2/ The moderately far AB pai with amethyst. I found the ORTF setting disappointing (NB : being actually a son-in-law of the famous ORTF chairman of the time - Pierre Schaeffer, a genius - my disapointment is all the more acute ! ;-)

Great video! What would you recommend for recording a live performance with an audience, vocals (one or many signers), and possibly other instruments? Would you adapt the close miking techniques like the a-b pair technique while also trying to position the mics possibly closer to the strings as to avoid some sounds from outside the piano?

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

It depends a lot on the context! In a classical or traditionalist jazz setting where the goal isn’t strict isolation between elements for much further processing, then some of the more medium distance techniques are more common. In those cases a lot of the recording may come from a pair or tree of room mics for the whole ensemble, and the somewhat closer mics are there to give instruments a little more focus and definition, and to adjust their relative levels slightly if needed. But for more pop styles where you want more isolation and expect to do more processing, then it’s exactly what you described! Often, AB or hammers close to the strings, depending on what you can get away with. Some people will use a “boundary” mic under a closed lid. But for a closed lid approach, Earthworks makes a fantastic solution that sits inside the piano. I think those closed lid approaches are even more relevant to live sound reinforcement than live recording. For me, for live recording, if I could get away with it, it would be an open lid, even if it was only at half stick. But I’d prefer full stick open if I can get away with it. Hope that helps! -Justin

I'm wondering if a shotgun mic could be good for recording piano classic pieces

Hi there! I recently purchased the Zoom H5 recorder and was wondering if anyone has experience on how to position it to record from a grand piano? Much appreciated 🙏☺️

@SonicScoop

Жыл бұрын

That is basically a pair of mics in an XY stereo configuration. Check out the way that we placed the XY configurations in this video. Then, you should get pretty similar results from your zoom! -Justin

@Musiquealbum

Жыл бұрын

@@SonicScoop thanks so much 🙏

I’m hearing some distortion as mics get closer. The sound is more pop when close and classical when far.

@SonicScoop

2 жыл бұрын

There shouldn’t be distortion but on any of them. Both the record and export levels are pretty low, with no processing . Sometimes a distortion free piano will cause an old phone or laptop speaker to distort though, because they just can’t handle the thick and complex transients of the instrument. Common problem! Could that be happening for you? What are you listening on? Thanks, Justin

Thanks for your Vlog. I refer your setup. I use the "SmartRig+, stereo, Max level" "SUGAR DM-830A microphones x2 ", "DSLR Canon 5D3 ,mic preamp about +1/4 " This could be done on video and audio at the same file. I just changed the mov of file to mp4 on computer. kzread.info/dash/bejne/doV9rc6LfLrTaaQ.html

To bad we didn't get much real low end. The song was pretty much all mid to upper range.

Video starts at 16:02

@geofflongford2008

5 ай бұрын

And miss some incredible knowledge and insight.

@geofflongford2008

5 ай бұрын

And miss some wonderful insight and knowledge gained through experience.