I've been teaching myself bookbinding for the last few years and finally broke down and bought myself some methyl cellulose to try to make mix with. I appreciate the wealth of information you've made available on your channel, whenever I have a bookbinding question your channel is the first place I go to look!

Wow, Mister Darryn, thank you ever so much for this! Based on your awesome advice in several videos, I bought the MC and busted out my little jar to mix up today. Followed packaged directions that started with cold water. Lumpy. Stirred til my wrist hurt. Not so many lumps yet (Grandma taught me to make gravy - this would have been failed gravy even at the 'fewer' point), and little bubbles EVERYWHERE. It looked just like your cold water one. I was going nuts! Your video saved me. I tossed the first one, did a second one with the hot water method you outline, and it is nearly room temp in the other room now, properly gelled, and looking smoother and glorious! Christmas presents await it tomorrow! Thank you again! COLD WATER - JUST SAY NO!

Its good to know about the different strengths of the different the strengths of past. Extremely informative

@DASBookbinding

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I'm glad I did that. I was surprised how well paste did with grey board and paper. DAS

As always love your videos; very informative and easy to follow. Yeah!

Wonderfully informative.

extremely useful and to the point. thank you

Yoohoo! My kind of video! Book binding AND a well explained and tested demonstration! Information sticks so much better in my brain when I know the why not just the how! Thank you! I'm glad I found you and I subscribed 💕

This is a great video, I look forward to replacing starch with Methyl Cel, thanks for the detailed prep instructions.

Very helpful! I’m getting back into book repair and I needed to be reminded of some of the reasons we used paste instead of PVA. Thank you. I’m loving your videos.

Oh I see you posted your findings here, excellent video playing with the methyl cell! I will give this a try myself with some deionised water

Very useful, and great timing,- the methyl cellulose I ordered arrived yesterday. I’m looking forward to trying your book cloth idea.

@DASBookbinding

4 жыл бұрын

Waiting to hear how it goes! DAS

Very interesting

Muchas gracias por compartir!

Grreat comparison. I liked how you mixed the methylcel. I use cold water but will use warm from now on as I hate the bubbles. I also love it with pva as a mix because it keeps better than pva/paste mix. Thank you for taking the time to show us this comparison.

@DASBookbinding

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is annoying having paste/PVA mix go off. The thing I was most surprised by in the comparisons was how paste stopped the grey board from delaminating. Happy binding! DAS

@DanceswithDustBunnies

4 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding I keep my PVA in the fridge as I've had a bottle develop black mold in the past.

Many recipes for Methylcellulose/PVA mix call for the addition of Calcium carbonate. Why is that? -ok, found the answer finally. Its used as a filler and brightener by those who are sizing paper.

11:29 This last test result was nicely illustrative. 👍🏻

This recipe along with the Talas brand MC worked out great for me. I found that the whisk definitely helps remove lumps and results in a smoother product. I also made the mistake of initially buying methyl cellulose for candle making. I found this type to have an unpleasant smell and be very prone to lumps.

Thank you for this video. I've found all your videos very informative and well made but this one is a dream come true. On a non-content note: thank you for your videos, I find them very calming.

@DASBookbinding

4 жыл бұрын

You're welcome! DAS

incredibleeeeeeeeeeee

Thanks Darryn, magnificent as usual. May I suggest why you got the bubbles in the cold mixture? Not because it was cold, but rather your stirring technique and tool. The hot mix was done with a whisk-like tool where most of the action was below the surface. The cold mix was done with a spoon-like tool at the surface of the liquid and you were incorporating a lot of air into it. Essentially making a methyl cellulose meringue :) I've successfully made bubble free MC using both the a) hot followed by cold and b) cold only methods. The hot followed by cold method is much easier I agree. Keep up the great work sir!

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for your observation, but I'm not so sure. The air trapped in the cold version doesn't come from the mixing or the surface. It's trapped in the MC powder clumps and as the clumps slowly absorb water over the next day or so the air remains trapped in the now viscous fluid. I don't show it in the video but I tried several different ways to mix MC cold all with similar results. I'm sure it is possible to mix cold, but as you say it is much easier to just use hot water. All the best, DAS

I ordered carboxymethyl cellulose from georgehill and at 4% it is too thick. To have a similar result to the mix in the video, it needs about 1,5%. I emailed them because I was worry about diluting it too much and they said not to worry about the c.m.c losing it's adhesive quality since it takes a lot a water for it to happen. Great video thank you!

Nice video. I would be interested in where you would use each of these alternatives in the binding process.

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

I'm working on an intro to adhesives video. Slow going because it can be a complex question because often there is no correct adhesive - it;s a judgement call based on the binders experience and style. This is hard to explain. But hopefully in the next couple of months I'll put something out. DAS

Thank you for all your excellent videos on book binding! Since methyl cellulose is not available here (Sweden) I wonder if carbomethyl cellulose based wall paper glue would work the same? I am mostly interested in experimenting with making book cloth. I tried wheat starch paste but it makes the cloth very stiff.

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure what the difference is. I have heard that wall paper paste is the same methyl cellulose used by bookbinders but with some additives for wall paper applications. But this is just third hand information. It isn't easy to get in Australia and I buy it from Talas in the US. Book cloth should have some stiffness to it. It's one of the characteristics of bookcloth that makes it workable on books. I'm not sure what would make it too stiff. I am trying to get a couple of videos done on making bookcloth. All the best, Darryn

@brittmarielindkvist9802

3 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding Thank you for your quick reply. The cloth I used starch paste on is so stiff it could stand on its own... I imagine it will be hard to do turn-ins? I am really looking forward to your videos on making bookcloth! 👍 Your videos have really taught me a lot and are a joy to watch.

Fun handmade hand sanitizer! LOL

There are so many variations on methyl cellulose that the results you've described can only be considered applicable to this particular brand. The major variations in methyl cellulose are the degree of polymerization (DP, the average length of the cellulose backbone of the molecule) and the degree of substitution (DS, the fraction of hydroxyl side chains of the cellulose that have been replaced by methyl groups). More variations are possible using other substituants as in methylhydroxyethyl cellulose and methylhydroxypropyl cellulose, and the even more distant carboxymethyl cellulose. Commercially there can be quite a bit of confusion between these products because of the similarity in their names and also the various abbreviations that might be used (MC, MHEC, MHPC, CMC, Sodium CMC, etc.) A higher degree of substitution makes the product more water soluble by interfering with the strong hydrogen bonds that normally occur between unsubstituted cellulose molecules. The adverse effect is that its adhesive properties become more reliant on simply encasing the paper fibres in a matrix of solid material and less on the hydrogen bonding that would occur between less-substituted molecules and the cellulose of the paper fibres. If you aren't working with cellulose fibres, you're better off with a high DS because there will be no hydrogen bonding anyway. On the other hand the material has to be porous for the encasing effect to take place. At the extreme, though, very high DS will again interfere with solubility because the molecules will become too hydrophobic (water-repellent). A higher degree of polymerization (a.k.a. higher molecular weight) affects how thick the paste is for a given concentration of methyl cellulose, or, conversely, how much residual methyl cellulose there will be in the dried glue joint for a given thickness of paste. With too high a DP you will find that your paste is either too thick to work with, or (by thinning it out) leaves insufficient methyl cellulose in the dried joint to achieve optimal adhesive qualities. With too low a DP you will have to use a lot of methyl cellulose to make the paste thick enough to work with, and this will leave a lot of methyl cellulose in the dried joint, possibly giving it sort of a plastic-encased look and feel in extreme cases. Methyl cellulose paste is a true liquid, albeit a very viscous one, which means that it will always flow to a level surface, Conversely, starch and flour pastes are generally somewhat gel-like in that a raised blob of paste will not spread out on its own. This makes a big difference when making paste papers. Starch paste can act pretty much entirely through hydrogen bonding since starch and cellulose present very similar surfaces, both bristling with hydrogen and hydroxyl groups which form the hydrogen bonds.

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Kevin, Thanks for your very detailed reply. You are very right about the range of MC. However, this is why I encourage people doing bookbinding use supplies produced for bookbinding. I use MC from Talas and Lineco, and the 4% by weight ratio produces an adhesive that seem very similar in appearance, feel and use. Most of the bookbinding suppliers resell these products. Maybe it was worth a mention but I'm trying to not over complicate the adhesive story. You've given me plenty to think about. Darryn

Considering it is only hydrogen binds without any covalent linkage it is a pretty good reversible adhesive.

@DASBookbinding

3 ай бұрын

You've gone all chemistry on me. This particular MC being non-ionic, and as you imply not a hugely strong adhesive. I've started using sodium carboxymethylcellulose for paper repair, which is ionic, which has a bonding strength high enough you have to be careful not to make the repair stronger than the original material.

Hello! I'm sure you answered this question somewhere, so I apologize for asking.... In your Elmer's school glue adventure, you applied pva, Eva, and Elmer's to a board, let it dry, then used metylcellulose to reverse the adhesives. So not understanding the chemistry, I'm confused as to why mixing pva/eva with microcellulose would make a new kind of bonding material. Perhaps you can explain it to me or direct me to the explanation. I really love your work and the way you teach this subject. I'm working on my first real book now. It's been a year, because I'm inserting exercises between steps, and because I have no tools or skills. However it is relaxing and fun so far. My first pretend book I made with my Mom, we bound up a story I wrote in the 6th grade. It got my picture in a local newspaper! Thank you for sharing your talent.

@DASBookbinding

Жыл бұрын

It's not so much chemistry and physical characteristics. Check out the video "Introduction of Adhesives for Bookbinding". I hope I clarify this question there.

@craigrotay3732

Жыл бұрын

@DAS Bookbinding Thank you for getting back to me! I'm sure I watched that video too, but will watch again since I missed the explanation.

I'm learning a lot watching your videos, and now I think I'm going to have to order some methyl cellulose, but in the meantime I was wondering if you have any strong feelings about rabbit skin glue (or other hide glue)?

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

Protein glues have a bit of learning curve to use. And bookbinders use two general classes of adhesives - glue and paste. MC is in the paste class while hide glues are almost the definition of glue. They have very different working properties. The modern equivalent of hide glue, that most bookbinders use, is PVA.

*Great video, Darryn. I would have just titled it: "How to Make Meth..." LOL*

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

May have got me in trouble, but amusing idea:) DAS

Hi Darryn, thanks for another informative video. I was wondering whether you've ever used MC to surface size paper? I'm looking to do it to some Japanese kozo and was wondering what ratio of MC to water I should use in this application?

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Beck! I use 1:4 for adhesive, so less than that. Sorry I've never resized paper - successfully:) What are trying to achieve with the washi - stop adhesive striking through, stop ink bleeding? I'll check with my paper guru. All the best, Darryn

@rebeccasutton1719

3 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding , thanks Darryn. The washi was recommended for the paper sides of my hardcover books. But I have found that whenever it comes into contact with any moisture (even the dampness off my hands) the surface fibres tend to pill up. I have been testing surface sizing it with MC (in 2% MC to water) using various numbers of coats; but I'm still concerned that this will not lend the washi durability. Would you mind asking your paper guru what they would recommend for this situation/application? Perhaps gelatin sizing would be better--or some kind of varnish? Thanks in advance, Beck.

@rebeccasutton1719

3 жыл бұрын

After a bit of testing I think I've found the thing, Darryn. Liquitex acrylic varnish is very good for use on paper. I'd recommend it to anyone wanting to add a protective coating to the surface of paper or board. Kind regards, Beck.

Hello - I am new to bookbinding and am finding your videos invaluable. Gives me the confidence to just try things rather than worry about getting it wrong. So I tried making MC paste by your method and it worked well except that I am left with a solid glob of paste. I used your 9:1 ration and mixed 50g MC powder with 450g of hot water and stirred. Have I got the weights and measures wrong?

@suziequeue1964

Жыл бұрын

Oooops - looks like I got it wrong. So you say 4% weight to volume so that would be 18g to 450g water 😂😂😂😂 is there any way I can dilute the gob into some sort of useful paste?

@DASBookbinding

Жыл бұрын

Sure, you can try. It must be like hard jelly. Maybe heat it up?

Thank you for this tutorial. I have been using PVA glue and it is causing bunching and bumps between my leather and paper. Do you think if I use this the bunching and bumps might reduce?

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't use MC for leather as I don't think it is strong enough. I use wheat flour paste for most leather jobs. It's a hard thing to diagnose since the PVA shouldn't have lumps in it, so it must be to do with the other materials or your working process, which I can't see. Are you putting leather on ordinary paper? Do you apply the adhesive to the paper or the leather? If you apply it to the leather and then bring paper and leather together, the moisture in the adhesive will transfer to the paper causing it to expand, but it can't because it is now attached to the leather. This would cause wrinkles. If this were the case you could apply the adhesive to the paper, let the paper relax (expand) and bring them together. Of course the paper will then pull while drying and cause the resulting laminate to warp to some extend. But no wrinkles...

@MegaInvestigations

2 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding Thank you so much for your recommendations. After looking at my final product I had several things go wrong both with the process and materials. Instead of using an end paper for the back and front of my book I pasted my text block directly onto the leather. The second issue I encountered was when I applied the adhesive (PVA) I applied it to the leather and not the paper, and as you mentioned that can cause the moisture to get trapped. Thank you again for all of your informative videos! I am going to pick up some wheat paste ASAP.

I have a packet of stuff called 'Poly' - says it is ideal for crafts and wallpaper. I think it must be a chemical powder/paste? No mention of ingredients on the yellow packet. Do you think this works the same as MS?

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

No idea. But to save $10, not worth it. DAS

Using the cold water, would it be any better, quicker or easier if you put the lid on the jar and shook it very hard? Why I ask is that if I put my fibre drink powder in water and stir with a spoon it has the same effect, whereas, when I put the lid on my jar and shake like mad it mixes really well and quite fast.

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

I've tried that and it results on lots of tiny bubbles that never go away:)

I had planned on creating book cloth this weekend using methyl cellulose and kozo paper on some linen. Would you recommend a different adhesive?

@DASBookbinding

4 жыл бұрын

Really good question. Many months ago I thought I'd do a quick video on making book cloth. At the time my preferred method was to simply apply PVA to paper and back the cloth with it. I had been starching calico and linen but only used that for things like lining and backing. A bit of research and I was going down a rabbit hole. Now I'm trying to make a material a bit like Arbelave. I'm forcing starch paste into the cloth and then giving the outside a coating of MC to try and get the texture I want and some more moisture protection. I'm still not there, and so much for a simple video. You should definitely go ahead with MC and linen. I think kozo is overkill for the backing, but there is nothing wrong with using it, just a bit expensive. The strength is in the linen, the paper is to stop adhesive striking through when you use the finished material. I'm curious as to whether you are using the MC to just bond the paper and linen, or if you are going to coat the external face of the cloth with MC to provide some protection to the finished material? I have trouble with the finished material curling on drying. So I now relax both the backing paper and cloth by lightly misting them with water and letting them stretch and stabilise for awhile. I used to let the material dry on glass but am now using grey board with a layer of no-spun polyester - something like Tyvek or Remay - over it so the moisture leaves from both surfaces. Let me know how you go! DAS

@ryfydubs

4 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding very informative answer, thanks so much! I had planned to use the MC only to bond the paper but maybe I'll experiment with a few surface treatments. Will check back in! Thanks again.

I think one could mix methyl cel also with an alcohol-water mix to speed up drying speed to your specific liking (since you control the alcohol concentration and thus evaporation speed), couldn’t one?

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

MC can be made with a number of solvents such as ethanol or IPA. But it is mostly used in applications where water would be detrimental. To speed up drying the easiest solution is a hair dryer. Ciao, DAS

Can we use MC ( as a thickner ) in PVA solution to increase the viscosity of pva adhisive. Pls reply 🙏🙏

@DASBookbinding

Жыл бұрын

A better way is to leave the lid off and stir every 5 minutes. Some water will evaporate and it should thicken up. I regularly mix a bit of water into my PVA pot because it starts to get too thick. The MC will make the properties of the adhesive very different. Mix - PVA mixed with paste or MC - is often just what you want, but when you need PVA, then you want PVA, not mix.

I'm using methyl cellulose as a size because its not a plastic or an animal product. ive been using it on wood but the water seems to warp the wood witch alcohol could i use for the sizing instead of water.

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

It is possible to dissolve MC in ethanol. I can't remember the details. It's not something I need to use. There is a trick to it, but just find my notes on it. Sorry, not much help. DAS

My gel has tons of bubbles in it, even though I mixed it with hot water. Can I still use it? What problems do the bubbles cause? Thank you

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

It will work fine. The main thing to watch out for is if there is MC still in powder form in the bubbles. But if it is just air it will work fine. DAS

Trying to make test batches of methyl cellulose paste, using this recipe to get the hang of it before I use it for bookbinding. The problem I'm having is that it clumps up immediately, is yellow, and doesn't dissolve fully. Should I try hotter water, or am I missing something.

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

As long as the water is above 60 deg C it should go into suspension okay. Hotter in theory shouldn't help. It won't dissolve but you should be able to mix it so there are no big lumps. It will dissolve as it cools. Continue to mix during this. Even if it doesn't mix well, after a day or so it should all have dissolved, but there is usually lots of air bubbles if there was a problem. Good luck! Darryn

@Misstucci

2 жыл бұрын

I had this problem when I accidentally bought MC for candle making. I ended up buying the exact product being shown here

Yeah - the instructions on the jar I got from Talas said mix with cold water and let sit for an hour or overnight. NOPE! Hot water is the ticket.

is methyl cel the same thing as carboxymethylcellulose? My father worked for Continental Can Company, on a patent for easy separation of bacon slices, which process used carboxymethylcellulose. Just curious!

@DASBookbinding

Жыл бұрын

Close. There are many variations for MC for different processes. Unfortunately you just can't use a MC (CMC) used for say cement additive or bacon separation additive as an adhesive. It would be much cheaper if you could:)

Does the MC powder last indefinitely?

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

Last a long time. I've had a bottle for over 10 years and I have used it and it works fine. DAS

What is the difference between using this pva/ methyl mix or the starch paste you made? Why have 2 different mixture and what is each mixture intended for? Also whenever I see videos abt starch paste or wheat paste or methylcelluose they always say you can put this in the fridge it will go bad after so and so date. What I don't understand is that if it's rotting in your fridge after a certain date, isn't it rotten on your book as well after you've used it on a book as a glue? Wouldn't your book start to smell bad and rot also since it's a perishable item?? So confused....

@DASBookbinding

3 жыл бұрын

For a hobby that only uses 2 categories of adhesive it somehow gets very complex. Traditionally bookbinders used glue and paste. Glue was an animal adhesive that is strong, a bit flexible and bonds on the surface. Glue tacks fast and has little to no slip and introduces less moisture. This is great for areas like spines and for working fast. Paste is a starch based adhesive that is not as strong as glue, has a long open time, penetrates the materials being adhered and can slip after the materials are joined and introduces significant moisture. This is great for leather and certain paper operations, but tends to be slow. It is also good for laminating paper. Mix is a combination of glue and paste. The idea of mix is that you get benefits of both. It's a stronger adhesive but with less moisture, can be moved around for a bit but still tacks fairly fast. The operations I think it is most suited is casing in, pasting down endpapers, and laminating paper, especially made endpapers. But any operation where a safety net makes one feel more comfortable is suited to mix. Traditional glue, animal protein adhesive, is smelly and inconvenient having to be held at a warm temperature etc. The synthetic adhesives PVA and EVA have mostly replaced protein based glues and when someone now refers to glue you take it to mean PVA/EVA. Paste can be made with flour, usually wheat flour, or refined starch such as rice or flour starch, but any starch will work. In the wet state the starch in paste is a perfect culture medium for microbes such as yeast, mould and bacteria and thus it will go off. To extend the life of paste I sterilise the jars I put it in, add a preservative (a few drops of oil of cloves) and keep spare in the fridge. To reduce exposure to oxygen some people put water on top of it. But it will still eventually go off. Once the paste has been used in a book and dry it is no longer attractive to microbes, except maybe mould if the book is kept in a humid environment. Starch does remain attractive to insect and rodents, which is less of a problem in modern homes. They also like paper. Just like PVA is a good replacement for animal glues, methyl cellulose is a good replacement for starch paste. Microbes do not feed off MC and thus is lasts a long time. It is not as strong as paste, but this is seldom important. It does not require straining once made. Many people only use MC and not paste. I don't think I know anyone that uses MC instead of paste for leather. Mix made with starch paste goes off just like straight starch paste. So, you can waste a lot of PVA/EVA using paste-based mix. For this reason, I mostly use EVA/MC mix. On my bench I always have EVA and MC and EVA/MC mix. But I do lots of leather work and always use paste for leather. Thus, I usually have some paste made up too. Occasionally I will mix just enough paste/PVA for a one-off job, but not often and I never store leftovers. If you still have questions, please let me know as this is a common topic and I'm planning a video on the subject. I want to make sure I answer as many questions as possible in the video. All the best. DAS

@ArtWars314

3 жыл бұрын

DAS Bookbinding thank you So Much for this thorough explanation!! Love you channel would love to see more from you!🤗🤩😸😀🍄🍰😺🐔🦔🐦😽😼🐤🍰😺😃🐰🦜🦆🤖tytyty!!!

@ArtWars314

3 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding When you say paste is made to laminate paper, do you have a picture or a video to show the finish product? Since I"m pretty sure it's not end result will not look or feel or have the same strength as modern laminated paper where it's sandwiched in plastic sheets. What are these Flour coated laminated paper used for? As far as using PVA and mixing it with MC, do you know of a way to make it PH neutral/ non acidic to slow the yellowing of the paper? I'm assuming, PVA mixture with MC will last longer than Starch p aste made from wheat or corn starch since it shouldn't ever decompost/ rot? Is the only function of added MC to give the glue a longer drying time ( more time for readjustment)? Can you make book cloth or bind a book with just straight PVA without MC? Have you ever use silicone glue for book binding or book cloth? thx again for your time :)♥♥

Does it cure because of air? Like say if you put the liquid solution in a bottle it won't cure inside like regular glue because there's no air

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

It cures due to evaporation of water. If you put it in a jar with lid the air in the jar becomes saturated with moisture and no more water can evaporate.

@stephan2807

2 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding is that the same for the cellulose and pva mixture?

@DASBookbinding

2 жыл бұрын

@@stephan2807 Yes

@stephan2807

2 жыл бұрын

@@DASBookbinding ok thank you so much

The most common use of Methyl Cellulose for me is making Vegitarian burgers.

Comment on the common idea of "Don't trust Wikipedia"= Many people say that since it's open for anyone to edit it. Many misinformed people have edited it thinking they were fixing something. But a lot of malicious people, acting like worst of trolls, actively alter things in Wiki just to be dicks. Both types of tampering has tarnished Wiki's reputation. As you shown here, though, Wikipedia can be useful. The best approach is to have an open mind but NOT have blind trust when reading things on Wikipedia. A really good wiki article is bare facts, bereft of bias or vulgarity (both big red flags of tampering) and a scientific/historical article would have references at the end that would allow one to follow them to confirm information.