I couldn't agree more. The hardcore mentality of the community is absolutely why I drifted away from the genre regarding forums and communication. I still play the games though, all these years later, but I do it alone and I don't care about other players. Your content on the other hand, makes me feel more attracted than ever to the whole thing. Like a breath of fresh air, a reasonable and grown up attitude. Great stuff man, I like it a lot.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

That s really awesome! I am happy to hear that :-)

Shmups are fun when you are going after your own goals, not goals that someone else imposes upon you. The thing about goals that people set for you is that you never wanted it, you never thought about it. They are meaningless. You have no driving force to motivate you to achieve those goals. And IRL, the equivalent is like your parents telling you to get straight As or you're not getting dinner, your parents telling you to be a doctor or a lawyer, higher-ups ordering you around. You don't want any of these and you don't enjoy the grind that comes with chasing for these external goals. When you achieve these goals, you just feel relief, that the agony is finally over. In contrast, goals that you set yourself are the complete opposite. These are the things that you want from the bottom of your heart. These are meaningful goals. Even when the going gets tough, you still enjoy the grind to a degree. And when you finally achieve your goals, you will get satisfaction proportional to the effort you put in. The harder the grind, the more amazing it feels to achieve it. The agony becomes joy. Back to shmups, we shouldn't pressure other people to play shmups a certain way; to either go big or go home. Because then a lot of people are just gonna go home. Even if you want to see more hardcore players, it is in your best interest to welcome everyone of different skill levels. Some people may start off more casually and become way more hardcore later on (like Moglar starting from Normal 1ccs then becoming a god at Ketsui). The only exception to this is 1cc, which is kind of the bare minimum and equivalent to beating the main game in other genres. That's not to say we shouldn't celebrate when noobs improve from a 3cc to a 2cc. That's still great! Improvement is always a good thing. But we should continue to push them towards a 1cc (in a nice way). It doesn't matter if it is a 1-ALL or a 2-ALL, any 1cc is good enough.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Let me give you a very precise example as well. The farm used to have a score limit to submit a run to their Crappy leaderboard in ddp. So I couldn't even post my 1st 1 all to the farm.

@lunarstrom8160

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah I heard that a bunch on your podcasts XD It was quite a shock to hear that at first, especially when speedrun.com lets any old time on their leaderboards. To be fair, I think speedrun.com is semi-automated, and they only verify the top times (probably). A dedicated website for shmups that uses a similar system will be good to have.

@silentharmony1015

4 жыл бұрын

@@lunarstrom8160 Speedrun.com usually has members of each game's community modding the respective leaderboards. In a lot of cases, esp. for popular games like SM64 and OoT, they do tend to put more scrutiny towards the top just due to sheer volume. Like obviously most people won't suspect a 150th place time of cheating as much as a top 15 one.

@neontetra1000

4 жыл бұрын

I agree with lunarstrom. Shmups should be easy to play and hard to master. I’ve played ketsui and doj hundreds of times and still have not cleared them 1cc. I wish games were generally easier but with a bigger emphasis on score so I can set my own goals. Such as getting a d rank and then aiming for a c rank etc Deathtiny is a good example as the 1cc is very manageable for old timers like me or saidaioujou where you earn coins for completing challenges. One of the things that got me hooked on street fighter 4 was being rewarded with new characters and music and other items for clearing the game with different characters. Let the player earn some rewards for playing other than a 1cc that nobody cares about.

Shmups are like any other genre and people like to dip in and out for variety. Gamers don't stick with just sports games or just first-person shooters and this is no different. In fact, I've never known anyone in my life who plays one genre almost exclusively, except for a few RPG-only guys but that's because they can't actually play videogames. Many people also don't enjoy replaying stages over and over and there's nothing you can do to change that. Appreciate the community that exists and know that it won't grow but the lost members will always be replaced and it'll always be tight-knit and supportive.

@2bussy

2 жыл бұрын

>except for a few RPG-only guys but that's because they can't actually play videogames. KEK I've always felt this way about the MMORPG-only crowd, honestly I'd say that's even worse. At least some RPGs like Shin Megami Tensei offer a serious challenge and require some pretty in-depth strategization compared to trash like World of Warcraft. I chose Shin Megami Tensei for this example because, just like the Souls series, grinding does nothing for you if you don't know what the hell you're doing. At the end of the day, I play every genre at a competent level. I've always been that way. Perhaps it's a personal point of pride for me or something like that, but I think it's moreso that I just can't stand missing a game that I know is good, so I naturally end up playing everything.

@ShotOfSelf

2 жыл бұрын

@@2bussy Well said and I agree about Shin Megami. The RPG remark was said in jest, should have made that clear. 🥲

@CatzyCatzy

3 ай бұрын

I am fully committed to shmups now. It's one of games that is action-packed...but lately some shmups have actual stories and I think. Maybe there's something here that is missing... So I dedicated myself to spending a small amount of time to spend on it. I do 30 minutes. I got a hectic schedule.

It's interesting, I've been into shmups for a few years, mainly focusing on the classic side of things as I was a retro game player first and foremost. I've known about the bullet hell side of things and have even played a few, but I only really started my "Shmup Fling" after taking a trip to Japan and just by chance sitting down at a Mushihimesama Futari cabinet that would forever alter my brain chemistry like no other game could. As a newcomer I think one of the biggest reasons for the revolving door is that there isn't any good leaderboard/metric for competition to keep normal people striving. The way it is now, you basically have players setting goals for themselves initially, like 1CCs, or an arbitrary number for scoring, but after that what? There isn't any central leaderboard to see where they land, so if they start looking up runs for scoring they're mostly going to find is the superplayers absolutely destroying the game in a way that seems unattainable. I think that's where a lot of people drop off. They achieve the initial goals they set for themselves, see the massive chasm of skill between them and the literal best, and decide they don't want to set any goals past that. I think a central leaderboard would do wonders for the shmup community. Firstly, it would naturally encourage people to create more shmup content, even if it's just basic, because they'd be uploading runs for leaderboard proof, alongside people streaming the games for similar reasons. Next, you'd also be giving some spotlight to more average players, as they'd be looking at each other to compare against their nearest rivals on the leaderboard. You'd be inciting competition without immediately discouraging people because now they can see that their only competition isn't just god tier players. I'd been giving it some thought too, and the arcade model would actually give some amazing potential for how creative you could get with the leaderboard scoring system. You would have both scoring and survival being two separate metrics you'd be ranked on. You could make 1CCs a simple yes/no badge that gets placed on a run, and then the rest of the run is ranked on their score. You could sort by survival, score, or both. The fun part would be if you did what the Goldeneye community does, and rank the players themselves by prestige of runs. Were you first to achieve it? What % of the other players did your run beat? Did that game have an extremely large playerbase in which you ranked high in? There's bunch of different metrics you could use that would essentially encourage people to both branch out to many games, or hone in on one. Anyways, that's my rant. I watched speedruns explode in popularity. Compared to when I started watching, they were once just a segment of KZread where runs were uploaded in 40 different 10 minute parts back in the late 2000's. I think shmups and arcade game competition in general could explode the same way if we were to lay the ground work. You'd need the leaderboards and a few cult of personality content creators.

Maybe it's because I'm from another era, but I enjoy the freakish brutality of the games and the community. I think it adds to the mystique and leads to shmups being talked about in hushed tones in dark alleys

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

yeah the difficulty of the genre is core to their design and appeal

Take healthy breaks: "absence makes the heart grow fonder". I actually just play an hour or two a night (Max). I play local co-op (social). The shmup community is pretty welcoming which I find rather charming and that can go a long way to helping people stick around. I feel like a wider appreciation of the different sub genres will go a long way. Provide a variety of experiences: "Some people just like to play the field" (little joke about the relationship reference 🤣).

Balance is so important for the reasons you stated, and I think it’s great you are encouraging it. It makes me think of MMO burnout as well. Takes over your life, then when you quit it feels impossible or even revolting to get back in. Making people feel like it’s “full shmup” or nothing isn’t healthy or sustainable. A balanced approach will yield better performance over the long run too, as you said.

I started playing shmups a year ago in my late 30s. I had always been interested throughout the 90s but the difficulty curve would deter me from taking the plunge. My biggest regret is that I didnt start playing sooner. No other genre has provided me with the pure joy and adrenaline rush as shmups have. The Nintendo Switch ignited my passion for these games. I found that playing consistently for even 30 mins a day really helped me improve my skillset. Im by no means even close to a pro player, but Im getting better all the time. Love this community. Shmups4life!

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes nothing hits like a shmup does, pure gameplay

Here's the perspective of someone who has played shmups very sporadically. Getting into a shmup is fun but also exhausting. Playing one even somewhat seriously for score takes a whole lot of time and effort and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to do it for a very long stretch. I'll look at a very interesting and deep shmup and think, "Yeah it looks great....but do I REALLY want to invest enough in it to make it worthwhile?" It's a little like fighting games in that way.

Great video on an interesting topic. I have always been pretty cyclical with my hobbies/interests. It doesn't matter how hardcore or excited I get about one particular thing, that interest level will eventually wane some and I'll focus on something else. But after some time, for possibly some random, arbitrary reason, I'll get just as interested again. After 13 years my wife has finally come to realize that all my MTG cards, or chess books, or time spent practicing speedruns, are not wasted even if I'm not doing anything with them currently, since sooner or later I'll be right back into it. I definitely relate to what you said about pulling things back a little. I am positive that is one of the reasons I rotate through things rather than each being a 'lifestyle'. Any hobby I get into, I pretty much devour it until I burn out (temporarily). But all it takes is some time away and I am recharged and ready to jump back in.

I really like that video! I'm a beginner in the shmup genre for a few days, and everything u criticise about the shmup "community" happened to me. I was told that I can't be a "good" player if I play other games then shmups. Someone told me I should be stopping to play this games, because I'm not worth it 'cause I'm a beginner :D I stream sometimes on Twitch and started to stream Dodonpachi Resurrection, cause this game is a lot of fun for me. But everyone tells me that this is NOT fun, this is some serious stuff. I think a lot of the shmup community members don't want new players. Thanks to your channel I don't give up 'cause I see there are players who are not like the ones which insulted me.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly. The people giving you a hard time are just trying to use the genre to feel better about themselves. Glad my content has been helpful!

@claudiomonteverdi847

3 жыл бұрын

Hello, just checking in^^ how do you feel about shmups 1 year later? no judgement, just curious

@kibakyo92

3 жыл бұрын

@@claudiomonteverdi847 I still like Shmups and played plenty of em. I wouldn't say I'm good but I still have fun. I distanced myself from the community and can still say it's hard to stay for a beginner

What I want to do, and what I encourage other developers to do is legitimizing more ways to play. And I don't mean that in the sense that you should add non-competitive adventure story modes and dilute the entire appeal of shmups and arcade gaming, what I mean is modes that play to the genre's strength. "Casual play" in shmups means credit feeding which is boring, setting super arbitrary goals (get a 3cc, get 50 million before stage 3, whatever) or playing easy modes. Stage score attack, unique shorter gameplay modes, gameplay modifiers applied to those, short-burst multiplayer modes (score races? maybe even direct PvP), and so on are all modes that help players stick around by giving more avenues through which one can compete and get challenged, without the commitment that comes with standard arcade shmups. But they have to be emphasized enough to feel "legit", and not be too numerous/decentralized to become overwhelming. Because if you have hundreds of leaderboards and modes that have nothing to do with each other, then players will exist in their own little corners and at best a very small amount of modes will be played, at worst players will experience a paralysis and play none of them. Then there's the other side which developers have very little control over - how the community of players will treat those modes, because if everybody only plays and talks about the arcade mode, then all this effort will be useless. Though of course I'm not delusional and don't think this will make shmups big no matter how well it's implemented and treated by the community, this merely helps create stability of their "niche but loved" status. To attempt to become truly popular, they would have to wholly embrace scummy modern practices and treat the games themselves as a side attraction, a mini-game inside a bigger game of carrot-on-a-stick treadmill.

@lunarstrom8160

4 жыл бұрын

I second this. These are some great ideas.

@lob5645

4 жыл бұрын

A good example of what you are talking about are the side missions in blue revolver. These missions feel "legit" as it's the same shmup gameplay as the main game but it's more approachable because it's usually just a single stage or boss fight with different requirements and modifiers. I've spent probably about as much time playing these side missions as the main game itself so it definitely works for encouraging repeat play.

@boghogSTG

4 жыл бұрын

@@lob5645 Blue Revolver's mission mode is awesome, the mission where all the bullets become invisible after reaching a certain point of the screen is genius, it should be repurposed as some kind of advanced tutorial in shmups. The classic example of cool modes are the Caravan shmups, those 5 minute modes are more enjoyable than the main games most of the time.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Yeah exactly. I think my points about our scene s immediate conclusion that the genre should sell out completely from what I say in this video is an illustration of what I am talking about, we are much too quick to jump to extremes, rather than be willing to look at how we can make helpful improvements. I agree with your ideas by the way, great stuff.

@Oneiroclast

4 жыл бұрын

So essentially gamify the learning process. Instead of just having an open-ended practice mode with no explicit goals or direction on how you're supposed to use it, have a series of challenges that eventually build up to doing full-game 1cc runs, and then beyond by introducing the depths of the scoring system with further challenges. That gives a sense of progression rather than presenting a singular brick wall of a challenge that you will inevitably spend dozens or hundreds of attempts failing until you can overcome it.

This video is so relatable. I've been the kind to drift in and out of shmup obsession, going super hard into it for months and then just dropping the whole genre for months. I think what contributes to this in my case is the fact that doing a 1cc of the kinds of games I want to play is SOOO friggin hard! Doing a run of deathsmiles or CC, making it all the way to the tlb and dying on the last phase is such a brutal feeling, it's painful on an emotional level. The relationship aspect is relatable as well but also kinda f'ed up, because the nature of the relationship is that I wanna DESTROY this game, and all of my getting to know it and spending time with it is towards this end. I try to keep things light-hearted and fun but this genre, when pursued for 1cc's is an emotional rollercoaster that no other genre imo can replicate, and it really lends itself towards obsession I think. You kind of need obsession or at the very least passion and determination to conquer these games. Awesome video and awesome channel, have a good day!

The comparison with marriage is so funny, but it's true! As a new player the discord channel and La Calice Cup has been keeping me engaged

@yours_truly_

4 жыл бұрын

Calice is a lot of fun!

you described me spot on so detailed that it was scary lmao. I'm new and totally invested but I have a tendency to leave genres after a while. Let's hope I don't leave shmups. Honestly I'm chilling and playing the games I find fun. There are always tryhard dudes that try to put beginners down, I've seen a lot of them in the FGC. The elitist bs needs to stop, not just shmups. People like that need to learn that not everyone loves it as much as they do. My tip for beginners is to not burn yourself out and try to become an expert in 1 month. Just concentrate on fundamentals for a while so that you have a foundation to build on. That's what I'm trying to do. I found your content awesome and it actually made me more interested in shmups in general, so keep it up

Loving your channel Sir! I really love Shmups and I always felt that I was just not good enough to play them. I got into Under Defeat then Dodonpachi Resurrection and I found that I had moments of super concentration or cognitive flow. I found that I'd perform dodges that looked totally impossible and I literally didn't know how I did it. Getting into that zone feels amazing and the pride I felt afterwards was strong. However I'm still not very good and I struggle with some mechanics and jargon of certain games. Your channel has me hyped again to really push myself and try to get better. Thanks. 🤓

I think the main issue with shmups and retention is the same that has plagued fighting games for a long time: there isn't much to do long term. Going back to fighting games, a lot of people buy them when they launch and play it for a while. However, the real meat of fighting games has always been to be the best. There's nothing wrong with that, but the average player doesn't want a grindy experience (because let's face it, going for the upper ranks is a grindy experience). Most fighting games don't offer you progression beyond increasing your online rating. We can contrast it to roguelike games, which are super addictive, where people keep playing because all the time they invest is sort of returned in the form of unlockables or upgrades. I think both shmups and fighting games need to learn this and offer more stuff to do for the average player that won't go pro. Killer Instinct had a very good take on progression where each character leveled up individually and unlocked cosmetic items. It may sound simple, but it did a lot for the average player to keep playing and unlocking stuff. I know the FGC romanticizes being the very best and going to your local and participating in the pro tour. Similarly, shmups are all about getting the multi-billion score or doing a 1CC. I think it's great to have these as goals for the genre, but it doesn't change the fact that for the average player the game isn't offering much else to do. The good thing is that the hardcore goals and the casual goals are not mutually exclusive.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Great insight man! I absolutely agree!

@dadrising6464

3 жыл бұрын

there are some shmups that close the gap though.. sky force reloaded comes to my mind. im a casual shmup tourist but that one got me hooked quite a while due to the progression system and the more stretched difficulty curve ( normally im playing alot of retro stuff and that includes shmups, but like the fighting stuff more on a fun/super-casual level). there need to be more games like that

@KugutsuYushiro

3 жыл бұрын

@@dadrising6464 yeah Astebreed is a great one too, but these like, more simply experiential based shmups just seem to be looked down upon lol. Like Astebreed is a fucking great game, even if it doesn't have a super complex scoring mechanic, I don't think it deserves to be looked down on, especially not when the devs very obviously worked so hard on making it a fun game.

🙇🏻‍♂️🙇🏻‍♂️🙇🏻‍♂️ 💯 Best shmup capture I’ve ever seen!! Salute for this, man.

@run1cc347

4 жыл бұрын

Did you get the PS4 to add the scanlines and then use the same capture equipment as you had in your capture vid??

@run1cc347

4 жыл бұрын

I would love to see a capture like this in Tate mode so I can watch with scanlines on my phone/tablet. Is that a thing you would consider?

@run1cc347

4 жыл бұрын

Also, I’m 100% behind everything you were saying here (I listened while drooling over the pixel art 🤤😂). The Shmups forum will hate it 😝

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Glad you like it! I've been working on it a bunch :-) So the scanlines are actually built into the game, which is really cool. One trick I'll let you in on is that I capture the gameplay in TATE 1080p and then rotate it and shrink it down in OBS, which I think gives it a very rich look. I love the way the capture on this vid turned out. And yes, the farm will hate this video, but I have a video coming up soon that they will hate even more ha.

I'll say just your channel existing is a great step at this point, discovering you through Ninja Gaiden and Nioh and seeing a lot of your stuff rekindled my interest in the genre. You don't really get many people promoting shmup content or anything mainstream that promotes interest in the genre, which I think is something that makes it harder when the genre is almost invisible in addition to just being poorly treated. Especially at a time where I feel like the modern gaming industry has gotten really boring and I want more games with arcade style design. I've just gotten so sick of open world games and ARPG's now and shmups are filling the action game niche that's been missing for me in the game industry for some time now.

Agreed! I’ve been playing shmups for 30 years, and I’ve never ever cared even a little bit about my score. That’s the most boring/basic aspect of shmups for me. Shmups are becoming more and more interesting structurally, thematically, aesthetically...it’s a damn shame to see it relegated to competitive bean counting. Things are changing all the time, tho... Love this channel’s content!

Interesting topic. I may be a 'case-study' here. I think that all the shmup community (hardcore players, super players, content creators etc) needs to do is to be patient and helpful, not to be rude to those more casual but who still love the genre. The Nintendo Switch, and the nostalgia value for people who played as kids in the 80's and 90's and who are now around 35-45, could take care of the rest. The numbers may already be there. I'm somewhere in that group. For me, I loved shmups (and fighting games) in the 80's and 90's although I was never a particularly strong player. It was Arcades and 8/16 bit consoles at the time. Then life happened. Now at 40, a design professional completely uninvolved in gaming on a competitive or professional level, my PS4 and PC was being used for gaming much less but then the Switch happened and it was convenient because of the need for short gaming bursts here and there, with quality games, so I played more regularly than normal and quickly developed a library. The re-invigorated interest from mobile gaming sparked interest in a few other areas and before I know it, I'm catching up on Cave games I missed out on via Mame or console, watching your videos regularly, and enjoying shmups again. The 'underground' or 'hip' aspect means absolutely nothing to me and I doubt that it would to others like me. Maybe 20 years ago, but not now. It's definitely a 'fling' - my life is such that I could never 'marry' any genre of video game, but I also don't intend on ending the fling. A permanent fling. If the community snubs players like me, I simply won't engage. But I'll still play the shmups quietly at home :) So in my view, if numbers are the goal, the community needs only to accept, and to leave ego's at the door i.e be ready to lose the 'hip and cool' aspect in exchange for a large community which implies the 'mainstream'. I'd love to see e.g Nintendo Life having you on as a guest when they review Esp Ra.De to give their viewers the point of view from someone more specialised. The hardcore can always remain that way. But honestly most shmup players I've heard or read about don't feel as you do. They don't really want people in their community who aren't totally dedicated and who don't play at a high level, which will always represent the vast minority of players. It's up to them. It's not a welcoming community for newcomers at this time.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for commenting! Yes your case study is definitely what I am talking about. You are right that there is a section of the shmup community that rejects your current approach to the genre as "wrong," I've heard it discussed many times. However, what I am hoping is going to happen is that I can help create a new section of the community that breaks away from the farm mentality and is more open-minded and chill about the genre and the different ways people can enjoy it. Thanks for tuning in and checking out the video :-D

@b3asle551

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground No worries - thank you for the interesting content! I guess its about personalities, not just shmups - some, instinctively want to share their passion if even a little with anyone willing to listen, and take pleasure in it. Others want to hold it for themselves, and become irritated by people less serious and already knowledgeable. I'm all for your camp on this one. In the end, more players means more demand, money, and ultimately better games for everyone. Good shmups and ports are deep enough to handle a full spectrum of players and there will definitely be some converted casuals in the process no doubt.

Part of getting into shmups is enabling conversation and having a welcoming community. Shmups do have both, but there are plenty of elitists that make you not want to keep playing the games. That's why I love channels such as Jaimers', yours or STG Weekly, where conversation and having fun is encouraged.

@finnmarr-heenan2397

3 жыл бұрын

yea there seems to bee a bunch of lines drawn in the sand, cave vs tohou, survival vs score, arcade vs euro shmup.vertical vs horizontal then once u pick wat to play then theres all the ways to judge each other over how you play. lag snobs, emulation snobs.... physical collector snobs, like i just lke flyin n shootin

Great video. Just found the channel and I like the extreme focus on shooters. For me its more of a mix of games, but play heavily and always enjoy taking on extreme challenges in games. Bullet hell shooters is one genre I still havent gotten a grip on how to play. Ive played through many old school shooters but never made the transition to bullet hell or really gave them any real time aside from coin feeding to win. Gun.Smoke for arcade and Super Smash TV for snes were probably the most recent ones. Gun.Smoke was especially brutal for the arcade. I think the focus is there for me but still have much to learn about where to direct it for bullet hell types of games.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

That s awesome you found the channel! Check out my how to shmup vol 1 vid I think it will help!

@flutebasket4294

2 жыл бұрын

Bullethell might as well be its own genre. I'm trying to get used to it now with Donpachi (ps1) and Progear (switch) -- they're like something I've never experienced and insanely challenging

@theconsolekiller7113

2 жыл бұрын

@@flutebasket4294 Agreed. You really cant lump all side scrolling /overhead shooters into one category. Theres overhead shooters like Gun.Smoke that play so differently to something like Truxton and niether are Bullet Hell. Gun.Smoke has the ability to shoot in 3 directions while the screen scrolls up. It really changes the way you play the game. Bullet hell is also very different than your standard r-type or gradius style shooter. With the tiny hit box and screen completely filled with bullets its really a different way to focus compared to those games. I think it would take me a while to learn.

I play for around 8 years now and I had times where I completly stopped playing. But I want to have a small daily routine of credits in order to still make progress when not playing as much. I hate derusts so I want to try to avoid the anger of getting over the frustration. At the same time I know that there are games you can stop playing for a little bit and come back to with a very good credit. Now when it comes to the genre as a niche I'd like to keep the genre a niche, because otherwise the genre will become unimportant for other players. I find very important to see the community grow via stuff like agdq and stunfest. And the reason it never will be mainstream is propably the high amount of time and dedication you have to spend at the beginning just to get decent. Meanwhile I consider fromsoftware's games casual, because they have such a big audience and are way more forgiving than shmups, where you always start back at the beginning of stage 1. think each player has to approach the genre their own way. Surely we can give tips and tricks we use ourselves to help them out, but it is up to them if they see smth. in the longterm.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

I definitely know what you mean. Just to clarify what I mean as well, when I talk about the size of genre getting larger, I don't mean that we transform into mainstream overnight. But at this point shmups are so niche that it's extremely unhealthy. To put it in terms of body wieght (as that might help), we're anorexic and I'm saying we should get some muscles and meat going, but not that we need to end up sumo wrestlers if that makes sense ha.

@Seriousbomb54

4 жыл бұрын

​@@TheElectricUnderground yeah I gotcha. having more players and a helpful community is a plus. But we tend to be alone and see/talk to us mostly online.

I think many one night stand type people don't have a joy stick/ don't play well with WASD. Also I think they play games that are way to hard, and not getting in on the lighter difficulty modes, and ballanced games. Also focus on 1 or 2 games with save states ( i know , i know its a bit cheap) but focus and get into the start to end in as little 2-3 cc then try the 1cc . I think having a good 2-4 runs of SHMUPS in a night , and then take a break. I play my games in bricks by genre , like play dark souls, beat a boss , check out new area, find new boss room, then save and quit, then turn on Touhou 10 for a couple of runs, then playing something more turn based / non action for a while. I play DOOM on PRBOOM PLUS , Dark SOuls games, and SHMUPs, Enter the gungeon, Starward Rogue, Then turn on my ps3 to play HD PS2 throwbacks to relax like Grandia , or Tenchu Wrath of heaven . I think many gamers need to realistically play there harder games with fresh mind sets and not thinking its just them not grinding enough , but to leave good space inbetween . I beleave your on to some real truth about gamers seperate themselves into groups and "hate on " eachother . I think there is a serious issue with lazy casual gamers that don't play any games on any lvl where it could accually be called "playing " .. more like walking and pressing 1 button and auto healing lol.

@theconsolekiller7113

3 жыл бұрын

Pretty much describes my playing style exactly. I probably average about 6 hours a day playing, sometimes a little more or less, but tend to switch between games constantly. I average about 30 game completions monthly, a mix of very old games and modern. I do end up with a shitload of backlog games that are unfinished, but keep the video footage in folders so I remember them, and when Im compelled enough I finish alot of them. When Im really focused on completing a game or challenge then I might invest the whole 4 to 6 hours on that game for the day or most of that time anyway. I try to hit the extreme games when I first wake up as my reaction time is the tightest then. That flexibility makes it a hell of alot more managable for me and I try to make some small chunk of progress before switching over to another game. That keeps me driven and my fire fresh. Games like Gun.Smoke for arcade and Super Smash TV were brutal but comitting to 1 or 2 full attempts at the game and then playing something else makes it so much easier to digest. Or if Im using save and load states to practice maybe 1 hour of practice and then see how I feel and take it from there. With super hard games I find it best to atleast put in some time daily to keep them fresh in your mind. If its a checkpoint game with unlimited continues then you can take long breaks and stretch it out. Some old games need to be memorized though. Jim Power on the SNES took me 6 days to beat and I had to play daily just to remember everything in that tedious game. The most dedicated I was to a single game was Ninja Gaiden Black where I had close to 1000 hours of running time between the original, black and sigma (all remakes of the same game). I had a personal goal of 40 million in mission mode, which I hit. After that my interest really burned out as it was just farming missions with ultimate techniques and the weakest weapons. I was grinding maybe 8 or more hours daily at that game but these days I like beating a large variety of games. I think ultimately it comes down to what your goals are and what brings you satisfaction. I have to mix in some extreme modes and games or I get bored.

You touched on alot of the reasons why I am a one night stand but I just want to give you a little more perspective on my deal specifically. The pro players made this shit seem daunting. I love shmups, I always have. I'm 37, I don't think I've ever even 1cced a single shmup. For that reason combined with tine and the level of technical effort associated with playing these games successfully, I end up watching high level gameplay rather than trying to achieve it. Also stuff like fighting games you can grind execution and be validated via vs mode. You learn a combo, take it to vs mode, get better at it, and when you start winning matches with it, it's fun. It feels good. In shmups it's you against the game, you could argue that score does the same thing but it doesn't, shmuping is very much a lone wolf type deal, there's not a lot of validation or notice of improvement until you really crack a high score or 1cc something. Shmups are a weird genre whereas only the true autists succeed, most people aren't willing to go full on to do what you guys are doing.

I realize I'm commenting on an almost two-year old video, but as a new(er) shmup fan, I found a lot of this video very relatable, and was also surprised that you didn't focus more on the elements of shmups inherent to the genre that I think cause a lot of people to dip out after only a short time exploring it. You touch on this in some of your other videos where you talk about gameplay density, but shmups require a different mindset than a lot of other, more mainstream genres. The "short" nature of the games combined with the often brutal difficulty means that, when a newcomer first encounters the genre and starts to test it out with a handful of games, and then finds that they are going to have to spend hours and hours repeating the same stages over and over in order to finish them, they have to weigh in their mind if the potential satisfaction of beating the game outweighs the more immediate pleasure they could derive from playing a game in a different genre that might take just as many hours, but will also provide them with far more variety in things like story, visuals, and gameplay mechanics. Often, the latter will win out and the shmup genre will be dropped or, at the very least, de-prioritized. This doesn't even take into account whether or not the person is interested in playing for score, which requires a level of dedication and skill build-up beyond simple survival play, and which is typically where most external validation will come from. The shmup community simply does not care much about survival play, I've found, which can be discouraging to newcomers. For newbs, being a shmup fan requires you to be able to set your own goals and find genuine satisfaction in achieving them, and this is *not* how most other video game genres work. I do agree though that there needs to be some way to make the entire fandom/communities a bit more welcoming to outsiders. I've been a lurker on the Farm and in a couple shmup Discord channels, and it's just intimidating af, with no good entry point. I love the genre -- since I became a shmup fan a couple years ago I would not hesitate to call it my favorite genre of video games -- but it's lonely because no one I know irl knows or cares anything about it, and I find myself so far out of my depth in the online space that I mostly just lurk and work towards 1CCs for my own enjoyment. Don't have a solution or anything, and I think you nailed a lot of potential ones here, but this has been my experience!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome comment!! Yeah finding the sticking point for new players is still a big struggle for the genre, right now I think one of the strongest options is to push more shmups to start including and using built on online leaderboards

Thought this was a great video. I myself have started my own shmup channel just recently. It's super casual, exclusively focused on the wide swath of shmups available on the Nintendo Switch. My last video was dedicated to helping new players shop for shmups on Switch with reviews and recommendations for budget friendly titles. My next video is going to be about the most widely acclaimed shmups available on Switch. I think it's an extremely difficult issue trying to get people into shmups. Trying to explain the genre to an outsider isn't exactly easy. How's the story? -There's not really a story How long is the game? -less than an hour... Oh, so it must be cheap? -Yes and no, but you do get to play same levels over and over and die a whole bunch. There's this weird dichotomy that shmups have where they have appeal for most kinds of gamers, but that same big tent appeal makes it hard to build a community. You love retro games? -Oh we got retro games, great ones in fact You're a competitive gamer? -Welcome to online leaderboards where you can become best in the world from the comfort of your bedroom You like quirky, indie titles? -We got quirky indie titles There needs to be some kind of process to tailor different gamer sensibilities into the right shmup which is kind of what I'm trying to achieve with my channel. I also agree with the burnout you described too. I played shmups on and off for years but only got into them super seriously about a month ago. But now I'm not as invested as I once was and find myself turning towards games I've already played instead of the new shmups I bought. I think this can teach us that shmups isn't a lifestyle, just a preference. Fighting games, competitive shooters, mobas, and stardew valley seem to hold a hardcore niche in the gamer sphere. I don't think shmups need that. Think about the time investment it takes to be truly good at a fighting game, shmup, or competitive shooter. You kind of have to block out the other games because it's like having a part time job. It's the reason I don't really touch team fighters, because I don't have the time to master three separate fighters, Shmups take countless hours to master where a game like Dicey Dungeon can be understood and strategized after a few playthroughs. If you commit to shmups as a lifestyle, then it kind of drowns out the other genres as you try to master it, and that can lead to burn out. I think the goal should be to turn people onto casual shmups like Cotton Reboot, AngerForce, and Sky Force. Then when they develop a taste for the genre, ease them in with something like Danmaku Unlimited 3, Mushihimesama, any serious shmup with a novice mode. Then direct them towards the hardcore games like Crimzon Clover or Rail Gunner.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Oh that s cool to hear!! Good luck on your channel! Yes getting people into shmups can be a hard sale, but once people get into them that s when the fun starts :-)

+1 for handcams 😎🤖

Great video

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you my dude!!

You're absolutely right. I made fighting games a life style since SFIV and I absolutely love the genre. But there are times when I just don't feel like playing FGs and need a break to "recharge my batteries". During that times I'm trying to educate myself about other communities and find some new and interesting challenges. At the moment I'm digging deeper into the world of Shmups until the release of the next GG character or a SF6 open beta. Maybe that could also be a mindset for Shmup-players, that they think about Shmups as their main genre, but find one or two "back-up" genres, where they can fall back on, when they feel tired.

I agree with the basic point that there needs to be some sort of better spectator participation in some way. Speedrun community, fighting games have that built in. I think part of it is because those also have magnetism to players who aren't particularly skillful at the game. They may never be great at running Castlevania or competing in Street Fighter, but they remember playing the games and can understand the intricacy required. Shmups, by contrast, usually get the reaction of "wtf is this game and wtf is going on?" Also, devs need to come up with new ideas. Be subversive. Light something up in casual observers that makes them want to play, and before they know it, they've gotten hooked into the whole genre. I'm doggedly working on something right now, but for the most part I see devs going into safe zones, likely just pull in the die-hards. Wish more would have that mentality.

It’s been about a year since I really started playing shmups a lot, bought and played tons of games! Recently though I have been slowing down a bit on shmups, I still play them but I’m trying to balance it more with other games I use to play like RPGs. It’s hard to see myself dropping shmups. If anything rpgs will go because I can’t enjoy an rpg in 30 minutes or so. For rpgs I need at least an hour and as I get older I might not have that. If anything I’ll play shmups whenever and rpgs I’ll play on weekends or whatever

Three days ago I decided to give shmups another go by buying the Strikers 1945 bundle on Steam. I have had a few flings with 1945 II back then, and I would say the naive expectation that one can 1cc a game after a couple dozen hours or so was probably one of the factors that would deter a person from shmupping as lifestyle. Here's another way I look at it. In fighting games, your proficiency is measured by a lot of factors such as win rates, your play style, and more stats. In shmups I think the only way to show your proficiency is via high scores, so your run-of-the-mill gamers who wanna take up shmups would start losing interest once they reach a certain thershold where they struggle to get high scores or even that coveted 1cc. This is why when I play Strikers 1945 I (which I'm enjoying a lot now more than II), I try to vary my gameplay from doing a few bouts of score attacks, to Monkey difficulty runs and see if I can get a 1cc out of that. I am also interested in buying more games so I can try them out for the sake of it. I know that playing multiple games is counterintuitive if you want to really be proficient, but if it helps you keep shmupping instead of having the hype die like a short fling, I think it is worth it.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I think shmups need to start looking into alternative ways for players to engage outside of purely score, like a ranking system that they have in fighting games maybe. And then the rankings could be even region based, that would be really cool.

I think the issue is the clique. People who are just getting into it are faced with a few options, either spend a lot of money or live with an inferior experience to the people with PCBs who look down on the port players, who look own on the emulator players and so on. The deeper down the rabbit hole you get, the more likely you'll reach a dead end, and that might take a few years, but the people on the rungs above you will go out of their way to ruin your enjoyment.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Nailed it. Yeah exactly.

@SpaceDave3000

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground I could have summed it up with elitist gatekeeping, but what's the fun in that?

@neontetra1000

4 жыл бұрын

I don’t think the ports are inferior unless you are really ocd about it. They pay thousands for one board, one game. We pay 50 bucks for sometimes 3 or 4 arrange modes. Extra soundtracks. Collectibles. I’ll stick with my trusty arcade in a box ( 360)

@pachicore

4 жыл бұрын

@@neontetra1000 some ports have pretty bad issues like input lag or missing slowdown

something I've been mulling over recently, and I can't put into proper words yet, is that there are too many excellent shmups, and they are all being played at the same time. I'll try to explain myself, but I can't promise I'll be clear. Keeping the comparison with the FGC, when a new game in a series come out, the community moves to that game (mostly, and with the notable exception of smash bros melee). THe new game has then the sheen of being new, and perhaps it can update some of its style to appeal to new audience. That is not the case with shmups, so the community/genre feels more sparse. Take the dodonpachi series: there are several games being played competitively, for high scores. Suppose tomorrow Cave released a new one, the old ones would still be played competitively. This is one of the nice and healthy aspects of the genre for the people willing to invest time into it, but I feel it's a bit of an obstacle in terms of community building. All Street Fighter players are playing the same game, so they can compare notes on Ken combos (I know little about SF). I also think fighting games are a good comparison to stgs, but I feel I am missing something there. The 1v1 mode is definitely a big difference, because nobody would really judge a fighting game by simply playing through its story mode (maybe credit feeding), while stgs are often "just" story modes (meaning any single player mode that you play to get to its end with eventually a self imposed target like 1cc or high scores). Another related difference I've been thinking about is that there is a different dimension to competition. Having pvp gives a chance to create opposing groups of fans. I think it's healthier to not have those, and be like "that guy beat that other guy's world record and it's awesome", rather than "I hope the other guy gets a cold so the guy I decided I like more can own him". But it's definitely a thing that "builds" community, in a way.

@Bovaz85

3 жыл бұрын

Something else I just thought: It's almost fairer to compare stgs to grand strategy 4x games. Those also require dozens of hours to start really getting all their intricacies, and playing them is a big time investment. They have the accessibility "advantage" of being slower paced, hence reading a guide will teach you a lot about them. I can read about chaining techniques in a shmup, but then I still have to train to put that in practice, while I can study how to optimize commerce in Europa Universalis IV and then just do it. Stgs may just be this weird amazing extreme case of game genre where everything is always cranked up to 11 and refined for a specific kind of player. I feel something may be missing to draw in "crowds", and of course I can't put my fingers on it.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

The genre is really rich with quality games, it s pretty crazy actually.

@Bovaz85

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground As players, we are spoiled. But while Sagat is Sagat for all Street Fighter players, Tyrannosatan is a thing only for shmuppers who play Deathsmiles (granted, that's not too rare, but I wanted to write Tyrannosatan). I think there are more excellent shmups being played than there are excellent fighting games, and that adds to the problem of having already a smaller community (or at least a community that is perceived as smaller).

I love the underground aspect of shmups, always have. They're a refreshing break from mainstream gaming culture which is garbage imo. I'll take 20 shmup players scattered across my country as opposed to 20000 SSB rejects or 20000 LOL losers packed into a disgusting tournament room any day. Face it this is a lone wolf genre and I love it. I hate to sound elitist about it but most people just aren't worthy and don't respect these games. The scoring is very personal and they take dedication, practice and the right frame of mind. Most popular games are unbalanced, mindless shit shows that pretend to be "competitive". I don't push people away from them personally, but I definitely waste zero energy on them (you GO play the new COD Battle Royale) while I load a rom from 1998. I dunno what I''m getting at here I'm just typing as you talk lolll... great channel btw.

@handlessuck589

4 жыл бұрын

While I do agree with you in how E Sports are ACK. I feel this mindset of showing the outside world you hate them is why shmups aren't more popular. I once saw this comment on this Dark Souls KZreadr ranking Devil May Cry 3(another niche) bosses difficulty where his gameplay involved him spamming the same 3 hit combo over and over and over again not increasing the style meter. Many people bashed him for it and there were bar fights on DMC fans being percieved as absolute cucks with EHHH MY STYLE METEER! When the guy playing was ranking how hard it is to beat the bosses normally in a game very opposite to Dark Souls. I hate modern ESports for its terrible choice of games. Aside from Fighting Games. But often they're better at inviting more and more people, the gift that keeps on giving.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

I think the main point I want to try and make in this video is for the genre to start valueing balance of perspectives more. Right now there really is no such persective. A player is either hardcore hardcore or casually casual. It really is a war of clics. So rather than pushing to the extremes of cod or complete isolation , I think having a more balanced perspective will be healthy for every one, even the hardcore isolated players. A pack of wolves that work together can get a lot more done, but I m not saying we need to be a stampede of cows either.

@FreshLyte

4 жыл бұрын

Very good points, I agree with both you guys.

@handlessuck589

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground based Mark "speedrunning Metal Gear on the" MSX. You're a great writer!

@lunarstrom8160

4 жыл бұрын

I would take a more balanced perspective like the others but I agree with your points too. When you try to appeal to the masses, you appeal to the lowest common denominator. Retro and arcade games are all about quality over quantity, and if we compromise the quality to appeal to the mainstream, it will just be a shit game. And with the masses also comes the toxicity and shallowness that will compromise the fanbase as well. Frankly, the elitists are preferable to the twelve year-olds. At least sometimes the elitists make compelling arguments. Personally I would prefer if shmups have more presence in the public's mind while maintaining its quality, so that when we achieve something awesome, other people can recognise the significance of it. Like speedrunning, have lots of viewers and spectators even if very few people will attempt to speedrun.

Shout out to melee! I feel you on that. Luckily I found the right balance of playing melee and doing other things. I don't grind out the game like I use to but I can enjoy picking it up whenever.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes for sure!

Was a shmup tourist about 2-3 years ago, stopped being involved for another 2-3, and I'm now back in it, this time focusing on collecting/playing 360 shmups. Just wanted to let you know that we do come back, or at least I do lol

Ha since I've started playing a bunch more stg recently I'm in mad shooting game tourist mode. It's getting better but I've been hopping in and out of every one I've ever played or never got around to. Nonetheless I'm enjoying it and narrowing it down. Good thing is it made me finally play the copy of PSYVIARIAR delta I picked up some time back which after digging into it a bit more I'm really digging. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts/ see a review if you ever got around to it. Also I kind of like to just to in on things sometimes so while I did burn myself out on them to some extent that enabled me to step back and take a break and now feel like I'm back to enjoying them with a fresh perspective if that makes sense. Even if that kind of contradicts my traditional experience with human relationships.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I m in the same boat, ⛵, I need to get back to my ddp score chasing soon

I have a hard time sticking to one shmup. Ive been putting hours into DOJ and i love it but after practicing the first 3 stages over and over and over in DOJ, Katsui starts to call my name. But im trying to hang in on DOJ. Even though its beating me down…it so good. Also for years I’ve been trying to get my friends to play shooters and it’s really hard to get them to even pick up Thunder Force games.

For me, the real ones are the artists, programmers, designers and composers who participated in these constructions, this one goes a step further to provide fun in these arcades... yes, it's a style of game that I LIKE and I always carry this with me, I don't need to sell myself to one AAA seal...

The thing with any game is just finding the time to commit. I've definitely put time into certain shoot em ups to get a 1CC and it always gives a sense of accomplishment, even if I did it on normal and not the hardest difficulty. The problem is having so many games in today's world. I'm sure a lot of people don't want to commit the time to a genre they see as a time waster/distraction from the other games they want to focus on. Unless you make money solely playing shmups, responsibilities take over and it becomes harder to commit to a game where when you game over, it's back to the start, versus when you fail in another game, you just start back up from a previous save or whatnot, not the whole game. That alone makes shmups not really plausible to be a lifestyle type game. MMOs and games like Animal Crossing and Monster Hunter are considered lifestyle games due to the daily grind in certain aspects (daily quests, events, login bonuses, managing items, etc.). You can't really give that to all shmups in general or they all end up acting the same. Shmup grinding will always be a personal preference for those who enjoy the genre. It's a routine you make for yourself, find what you personally want out of your shmup experience and try not to burn out the mentality of just enjoying the game, because it is a fun game. I've personally experienced shmup burnout and it really sucks, you feel inadequate, like there's something wrong with you. I had to take a break from trying so hard to 1CC my favorite shmups to just go back to enjoying them for fun. I always have the 1CC itch and it's never gonna stop.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Well I think what you are describing is a lifestyle type of genre though. Shmups are a genre that you can come back to and play again and again, despite the difficulty. The idea of this video is to help explain ways that this process of returning to shmups can be encouraged, rather than discouraged.

@freakface1234

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Not neccesarily, though they lend themselves to be a lifestyle since you wouldn't want to miss out on most events and so forth, creating routine. To keep a player interested in a shoot em up really comes down to what the games can do to keep it fresh and interesting even after hundreds of playthroughs. Game over, credit, continue, becomes a routine sure, but not a fun one.

@pachicore

4 жыл бұрын

@@freakface1234 you could say the same for games that have daily tasks to do or something. Shmups you don't lose anything if you decide not to play them for a few days. But the lifestyle games you describe you would be missing out on task rewards or a chain streak if you don't want to play

@freakface1234

4 жыл бұрын

@@pachicore if you dont play shmups daily then it doesn't become a part of routine, creating a sense of lifestyle. It all depends on the player and how invested they choose to be. Wanna go for high score? 1CC? Speedrun? That's your choice, make it routine till your skills increase, that often takes time, and that becomes part of the lifestyle. Wash, rinse, repeat.

@pachicore

4 жыл бұрын

@@freakface1234 a routine isn't doing something daily it just means you do that thing at a consistent basis. Going to the gym every 2 days is still a routine

Bruh. If I Do The Same Commitment And Willingness For Good Stuff, I Can Succeed In The Business I Started Out, Just A Month Ago. Sad Thing, No One's Willing To Commit Itself Towards My Products. 😭 Still, A Very Informative Video. Entertaining, Even. Thanks. 🎉

I'm a casual shmuper and IMO there simply aren't enough casual shmup games for people to start playing and eventually, after they naturally get better, discover the more hardcore bullethells. Whenever I've been researching shmups for begginners - I would see people recommend games like DoDonPachi or Mushi on easy difficulty. And me being a beginner would trust the more experienced players. But these games are NOT for beginners (same thing applies for most bullethell shmups are at least in my experience). Getting into shmups by starting with a bullethell simply scares people away for the most part. They will try it - some will say they like it and will drift away silently, but most will simply walk away on the spot. Very few will actually stay. And there are a few reasons for that IMO: 1. first of all the games have insane difficulty even on easy, speaking from personal experience. Bullethell shmups are HARD. I know some people recommend Touhou but the artstyle doesn't do it for me, so I can't force myself to play something I don't like. 2. the outdated gamedesign of arcade style shmups doesn't really work in modern day. These games were designed to be difficult on purpose in order to eat your coins. But at the same time - having enough coins can brute force you through the whole game in 1h max. Which brings me to the third point 3. Arcade style shmups are just too short, and in combination with the fact that you can bruteforce your way through them with coins, instead of having some sort of checkpoint system makes the game unrewarding to play. Because if you bruteforce your way through the game you learn very little. You don't have to learn boss patters or strategies to get through complex situations - you just put a coin in. A lot of people finish these short games and have no incentive to replay or train in order to get better. Because at the end of the day - what for? What is the incentive? I do agree that there are some people that look specifically what the genre is currently offering - insane difficulty with a high barrier of entry. And a few casual players have the passion to stick with it - but for the most part people dismiss this genre because the design philosophies haven't changed since the dark ages and simply don't grab today's audience. Fighting game developers realised that and are trying to innovate - look at Guilty Gear Strive or Dragon Ball Fighter Z. I hope we'll start seing the same sort of movement in the shmup genre. Eventually it will happen - we just need a pioneer :) P.S. I do believe people need to recommend story based singleplayer focused shmups for beginners for the most part. And when specifically asked about some beginner friendly arcade shmups/bullethells - should warn about the difficulty in even the easier ones. Because for a beginner there is no way of knowing if the shmup is approachable unless he gets it - to then proceed being showered with insane amounts of bullets without any prior knowledge or experience gets discouraging fast.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

awesome reply my dude! I would also check out my gameplay density video, it goes over some of the points you brought up. Also my arcade level design vid! kzread.info/dash/bejne/a3mrl8p-fbbgddo.html kzread.info/dash/bejne/kaJ1uMSBicSrfps.html

Shmups are such an intense brew that they need to be broken up with other pursuits, to be honest. The arcade ecosystem was always fighters-shmups-beat em ups-racing-light gun- music for a reason.

I gave up on SHMUP some times. I used to push myself too much, I had the feeling that every new run should be better than the previous, so frustration was very common in this genre for me, especially because I used to play kind of exclusively some very hard games within the genre. Right now I'm playing varied kinds of SHMUPs, even some easier and I'm trying not to force myself too much. ZeroRanger, a story oriented shmup helped me a lot, because if there's reasons to play a game other than the very meta and hardcore reason (scoring, doing a 1CC in the hardest mode, etc), then I believe this game is much more enjoyable.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

yes zeroranger is a fantastic game to bring players into the genre, a huge fav of mine!

Shmups are just another hobby or interest. Elitism is rife in any hobby. That's what turns people away. You are on the right path man. Best wishes.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

For sure! Thanks my dude!

I think part of it is because a shmup mindset almost makes other genres innately harder to get engaged in. When you're so used to games that are 100% action, 100% focus, with an obvious objective the entire time, it's hard to transition into something like an RPG which is the total opposite of this. Not to mention, even if a game is similarly intense (like Bayonetta), you still feel compelled to return to the shoot 'em up quickly because the goal is right there: Beat the game. There's something about 1ccing a shmup where beating other games pales in comparison, because a 1cc is never guaranteed, and it's a lot more rewarding than beating most games. But this comes at the cost of a heavy time investment, so it can feel like a more "aimless" game such as an RPG or adventure game is almost a waste of time when you could be practicing. That might sound ridiculous, but it's something I've noticed myself feel from time to time, and I think it contributes to why it's such a niche genre. Honestly I think having a kind of schedule for what games to play when might be best at getting over this.

havent seen the video but this is my, as a tourist, opinion: EVERYONE INTERESTED IN SHMUPS PARTECIPATE IN THE GODDAMN EVENTS! EVERYONE HARDCORE IN SHMUPS ORGANIZE EVENTS! I think is that easy. did my firts online-local event yesterday and had a two day blast in preparing my replays and a chill time on showcase

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

that's great! Yeah last Saturday I restreamed the French Shmup Superplay event, Shoot the Baguette

I'm a casual player but I found this discussion interesting anyways. Like you say, people can be pretty prickly... if you show up and say "hey guys, what's up! I'm getting really into Radiant Silvergun" you tend to attract "hey, fuck you, Treasure games are wack" kind of replies. I get why that would happen but it doesn't foster the kind of bigger community you're talking about. One thing about the FGC that I think is a big difference that you didn't mention is the more social aspect of it. The competition is next to someone and going to events and playing your friends can make you more excited to play the game again if you're drifting away from it (at least I definitely experience this as a sometimes-somewhat-serious DOA player). Not sure how you'd approach creating something like locals though.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I would love the idea of having some kind of local-style shmup events. That would be a really great boost to keeping players around and engaged, they sort of do this in japanese arcades where they compete against eachother's scores. Having some sort of head to head competative format for shmups, like I tried with the kumite, might help alot!

One problem with the video is that the patreon roll up at the end. It's way too small for anyone to be able to read the names properly. Otherwise, great video, I agree with the points you made. I personally can feel that DDP grind you talked about, since I am grinding DOJ atm and I know how it is.

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Good to know! I'll increase the text size next time around :-)

Mark, you know I'm all about bringing in the casuals, and helping to cultivate their love of the genre. You know you can send them my way, just sayin' ;)

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

:-D for sure!

I can't deny that I'm probably having a Shmup fling atm. After all, im not competitive and I have little expectations to 1cc any shmup any time soon. But I certainly am not here because they are trendy. My first Shmup was probably Galaga, but it was Abadox on NES that first hooked me and I played to completion. Was also a huge fan of Super R-Type years ago. But never really explored the genre and admit its something I would largely ignore outside of lazily pumping virtual quarters in MAME for the special. So I guess I never took the genre really seriously assuming it was just a quarter muncher. Familiar with Touhou, ESP Ra.De., DoDonPachi, Espgaluda, and my personal favored for the special, Blazing Star and new enough to know there where people who mastered these games but never had the time or motivation to invest myself. However, what brought me here to your channel was picking up the recent Capcom Arcade stadium because I loved Ghosts 'n Goblins & Ghouls 'n Ghost and it revitalized my love for the Shmup genre and had me recognize that I perhaps could take these games a bit more seriously. Perhaps a fling. Probably will get detracted by the next game that comes along. But I do appreciate this kind of content.

Haha, "Shmup Junkie's" channel comes to mind. He embraces the whole addictive part of the genre. At the end of an episode he says, "take a hit off the shmup crack pipe." I'm thinking shmups attract addictive personality types. Maybe that's a component to the tumultuous shmup life cycle your describing.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah for sure ha!

Shumps will never be mainstream (again). I'ts totally understandable. Today I got DDP SDOJ and it looks like an LSD trip and sounds like Atari teenage riot mixed with Merzbow. Such games will never be mainstream. Second players today want instant gratification. Shmups do not deliver that. However, the switch may help to attract some new players of which perhaps 0.5% will then stay...

@Mingodough

3 жыл бұрын

Idk about instant gratification, I mean if you play it for a while it is instant because the games are so fast. But the same time the average person’s skill at video games has gone down honestly so it isn’t instant for most people even though for me playing eschatos first time was just amazing, and that was only a 20 minute session after dinner before sleeping lol

Shmups are like every other game genre for me. I play it off and on when I'm in the mood. I'll never be amazing at these games but I'll always enjoy them. On the topic of the shmup community, yeah I don't really engage with it because it tends to attract some of the most elitist gamers around, which is understandable given the highly competitive and perfectionist nature of the genre but it turns people off from wanting to communicate. Getting good at a shmup is a lot of work relative to playing most other video games, so outside of a few that strive to appeal to a more casual audience they're always going to be a niche thing. They're a hobby in and of themselves on top of simply being a gamer.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I m hoping the elitism is starting to chill out to some degree!

Just getting into shmups. Always wanted to make one so I've been doing tons of research and playing. So far my impression is that there isn't a ton of "variety". So what I mean is that it's always just shoot and dodge. The more intense games like tou hou types are way too intense for an average player and old school shmups are a little to boring in my opinion. There isn't a nice middle ground for regular skill level players and not enough variety to keep it fresh I guess. Obviously my opinion but i think it needs to venture out a bit. I think cuphead (idk if I will get hate for this) type shmups could be explored more.

@siksdenine2669

3 жыл бұрын

Also graphically they are over saturated with "spaceship" type games for the most part. Not enough diversity in character, story or unique art IMO.

This video seems to be more geared towards content creators and the community in general, but I think the average person only sees the surface level of genre. They just see shooting stuff and get a quick arcade type fix from the genre. There's no real middle ground between that and mastering a game so most people probably just move on. If there was more of an access competitive online community, like a call of duty type lobby, maybe people would get hooked? But most players don't play for score anymore anyway.

I got into them because they drop my jaw🤩 I'm not that great at them but WOW, they are fun!

Could you maybe discuss one time the hacks of Ketsui / Dodonpachi like arrange 1.7 or Mr stoic...i kind of like the dodonpachi trap hack even though in some ways its a bit meh....be fun i think to hear your thoughts on these and whether you consider them trash or treasure

What game is this? Could you add the games you're playing in the discription for these videos? I love shmups and your topics are great. Fairly new to the scene although I have played plenty throughout my life. I want to build a shmup library someday 😪

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

Ketsui deathtiny! It s an amazing game. It s on ps4

Maybe try to get more shmup events,but I think a lot get board with playing the same old excellent games,I think we need a company to pick up where cave left off and start releasing new exciting games,the best think this generation has been the m2 shot triggers on PS4/switch.yes I luv each one of those releases,but they aren’t new games,also there’s never no marketing when they get released,and what are they thinking just releasing them in Asia no eu/USA releases,why would you make a game and sell it world wide,USA was lucky you guys got dangun feveron etc but digital,is in the eu didn’t even get digital,why?what is the reason behind the thinking

@deancampbell7704

4 жыл бұрын

Supposed say not sell it world wide,fkn predictive txt!

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

I think their reasoning is ... bad marketing skills. That sounds mean, but M2 Shottriggers have some of the worst marketing I have ever seen, they hardly do anything at all. I almost feel like M2 is intentionally sabotaging the releases or something. Maybe that theory is the topic of another video ha.

@deancampbell7704

4 жыл бұрын

I agree,they not marketing there games correctly so they never reach a new audience,the only people who buy them are already shmup fans like us

I have a range of things that I'm into. I love shmups

Came across this video, and I immediately know it’s about me 😆

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Ha admission is the first step ;-)

I agree a lot with the intensity burnout thing. I’ve come in and out of shmups like 3 times because of that. I get hella invested and kinda crazy and then get burnt out and pissed off and leave it for a long time lol I do that with monster Hunter as well. I LOVE something too much and then I get really into it, burn out and then hate it for a few months. I like your ideas about being more balanced and chill about it. Maybe I won’t hate Espgaluda II so much if I just chill out a little lol

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Ha exactly slow and steady works in the long term :-)

I think I've said this before but I think shmup fans and developers would have more success targeting the sorts of weebs who pour hundreds of hours into rhythm games like osu rather than random casuals and "normies". Rhythm game players have a similar mindset to shmup fans and would probably be able to invest themselves into the shmup genre if they knew how to approach it. And this is why having a good shmup to start with is so important. It wasn't the first shmup I ever played, but crimzon clover was the first shmup I properly invested my time into and aimed to improve at, mostly because it's one of the best designed games ever imo.

@lob5645

4 жыл бұрын

Also I think that expanding out and trying different styles of shmup can help prevent burnout if you aren't the sort of person who can just happily invest their life into a single game (and I'm not one of those people). For example at the start of this year I was playing touhou games and CAVE shmups but now I'm trying to learn the gradius games.

@dr-gorgo

4 жыл бұрын

Yes, I try to do both (Hatsune Miku + Shmups) but it's really hard and time-consuming to get somehow good on both types of games

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

I think your theory has a really strong example case to support it, touhou. Touhou popped hard with the anime community, a community much more likely to take interest in shmups than nomies, as you mentioned. Yeah for sure, shmups could definitely benefit from some more targeted marketing.

@lob5645

4 жыл бұрын

@@dr-gorgo I play quite a bit of taiko no tatsujin so I know how that feels lol

@pachicore

4 жыл бұрын

Nononono i do not want the osu community joining shmup

I'm watching this video two weeks into our relationship.

As a streamer I recognise what you say, but it is what it is. It goes both ways though: I stopped speedrunning: nobody watches me anymore. I stopped playing Dark Souls games: nobody watches me anymore. I play Zelda games or Fallout games: new followers. I start playing PC Engine games (mostly shmups): followercount drops again. Most viewers tie themselves to some kind of community and don't want anything else. Can't force anyone to do anything. And not to be a d1ck but many people (not all) in gaming communities are mentally (nor physically) in a good and healthy place. It's all they got and where they can be somebody or worship somebody in order to belong to something. Realise you're dealing with egos and just like in highschool, the gym or any kind of hobby/sports, there will be jocks and followers. There will be stars and groupies trying to chase clout. Some people go for 1 thing, other people don't. The hardcore mentality alienates a lot of people who are just casually playing games. If you're not hardcore enough or don't know who's who or what, you suck/ you don't matter. Above all; casual is bad. It's a giant ball of compensation, coping and fun somewhere mixed in between. And like I said; that doesn't only happen in gaming. In my opinion, it's best to just keep doing your own thing and don't care about the noise. I try to stay away from communities as much as possible because too intense. I play some shmups and then chill with some Yakuza game. That's how I keep this hobby in balance. Can't base my hobby on the people I mentioned before, that adds pressure and most of them can only relate as long as you do what interests them. They're not interested in you but in what you're doing. It is what it is.

Modern shmups are by and large completely uninteresting to me. Cave style games have very little in common with old school shmups which are the ones i like. I will just stick to my antique shmups and participating in a community that seems much more focused on Dodonpachi than 1942 feels like a waste of time

22:08 ...and you just described how Touhou became the poster child for bullet hell while the other shmups struggle for relevance. EDIT: ZUN himself said the debate about 'secondaries' had been going on for a long time and he doesn't mind people who got into Touhou by the music/characters/fanworks. Unlike THESE shmup fans...

The price is too high for playable time, not to knock on the work that goes into the art and design ofc because most are extremely high quality pixel art. Add PVP modes where the opposing players can manipulate the other players instance with mob or attack types. Why I like shmups: simple gameplay and the pixel art which is some of the best I've seen. Look at nova drift, can you say it's a bit of a shmup roguelike but not on rails? It did well.

Honestly I think giving bad reviews to NintendoLife articles is doing god's work. Mainstream gaming journalism is part of the reason people bounce off shmups, they recommend entirely the wrong ones and talk about them in such uninformative ways. If I see one more outlet treat Ikaruga like some one hit wonder for the genre imma lose it. Plus NintendoLife are a bunch of shills, representing many of the things wrong with Nintendo these days and their fandom. I'm glad John left, he seems like a decent chap. I take it personally (as much as one can when it's about video games) because I fell into the trap. If people had recommended me Cave games or some decent 16-bit shooters when I was younger I'd have already been into shmups for years. Instead I bounced off Ikaruga and its obtuse polarity system (which renders it completely inaccessible to new players who need to get to grips with how the genre plays first). It then took me another 6 years to discover Thunder Force IV on Retro Bird's channel by accident and get back into shmups.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yes exactly my dude :-)

I love shmups I love them so many shmups! Like little pokemon..

@nilkilnilkil

4 жыл бұрын

Hahaha

for me music make me stays on Shmup. once im leave shmup its not gonna be longer because the music i heard bring me into the game. and also the aestethic on each games makes me want to replay the games. i might spend a lot times with other genres like Looter shooter, FPS, fighting games or Hack and slash. but in some times im also touch shmup as well.

SHMUPS are my life partner.

Well to me I'm not getting into DoDonPachi because I'm trying to find a new competitive outlet, I am getting into it in the same way I had just gotten into Metal Gear Solid. I guess the real difference there is that shmups don't have as obvious of a clear state. When the MGS credits run, I beat it and it's time for something else. But what's "beating" DoDonPachi? I guess a 1-all at least, which is a bigger feat than beating your average game. I think you'd have more people sticking around and playing more games if "beating" a shmup was a little more accessible than a 1cc. But otherwise that's asking a huge commitment.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

There s a great follow up to this discussion on the tlb ep of the podcast I just recorded :-) kzread.info/dash/bejne/jHhl2siedau0fKg.html

@steeplewiththesnakes

Жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground ohh that sounds great I'll have to listen. A lot of things that would definitely be considered post-game or like challenge runs in other genres are considered a lot more core to the shmup experience so it'll be interesting to get your perspective there

We can lessen the burnout effect with more " friendly" shmups or games that go a little easier on the player and don't slam the skill gap in their face as quickly IMO.

@IllusionistsBane

9 ай бұрын

Touhou fills that role but the other shmup fans hated it as far as I know. They say it's too slow, or its scoring system sucks, or it's just weird, then they wonder why Touhou is the poster child for Bullet Hell instead of CAVE. I think it's the very same problem some fighting games have, especially the ones that die fast because the entire audience has such a high skill floor that newbies got spooked and bailed (also why the best time to get into a fighting game is the first months of its existence while everyone is figuring things out).

Hella!

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Ahhh yeah!

@xXCigarXx

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground just got my Korean copy of Battle Garegga today from playasia. Gotta figure out these Korean menu options.

one problem that affects these hardcore gamer groups its that on the introduction of a new player, of the bat they feel compelled to let them know how deep and complex their games are, its supposed to sell the genre but ends up putting more folks off , its like a weird humble brag...(this game is so hard and takes so much skill= im skilled ) ''lil timmy u will never grasp the layered genius to my decision making, sure u just wanted to pick sagat beacuse ur 6 and think eyepatch looks cool, but i picked him because if his frame advantage and wonderful oikizeme''.....'' oh you dont understand what okizeme is scoff '' like i get it guys the real juicy depth in shmups and fighters is what make people devoted to being the best, but dont forget what atractted you to a game when u didnt know about 1cc and boss milking or zero to death bnbs. also not everyone wants to get a high score, i personally play shmups as a break from other genre. if i join a disscussion i will be told i need to play for score and must no miss the true last boss

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes this mentality of all or nothing scoring is a problem. I 've been trying my best to replace that message

@finnmarr-heenan2397

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground oh cool thanks for the response, i think your succeeding , i actually have a question, im interested in making my own shmup but im not a great player and dont get the nuance to good scoring system or literate enough in understanding why they chose particlar bullet patterns ect. (i once read an article detailing bullet patterns in game design and why the dammed medusa heads in castlvania are so hard to predict ) so my question is : do u know of any resources to help a wannabe shmup game dev...but less generic how to guides i can find on my own and more nuanced and focused on good scoring ect . in fgc terms less like movelist guide and more like cerebral strategy guide.. i dont know if im making sense lol

While I have the appreciation, I usually dont watch/interact with bullet hell content. I can learn an arcade game 1cc usually in a month and I will be able to move on to another game if I don't like it as much as when I started playing it. I'm not ok with dedicating myself to one game for a year or more when there are so many classics I want to learn. I desire light at the end of a tunnel, not another tunnel. I also dont find credit feeding fun and prefer to learn games one stage at a time. There is so much variety out there and I have yet to find people that have similar tastes even on twitch. IMO this is always going to be a niche genre until someone creates some kind of virtual arcade app with good latency that anyone can easily access across pc or consoles. These communities and events are non existent everywhere else so most people just have to hope they meet others online and then what? You cant play anything together, you cant stream well with cable internet, now you need money for a streaming pc ect. There is more than the mindset holding the genre back from getting mass popularity.

I enjoy the genre. your area of games is a minority as well as mine. I'm an nes fan and mostly what I play. so I know what it feels to be in a minority. I delve into shmups occasionally.

I'd comit six months minimum of my free time to any decent bullet if it had a novel, graphic novel or anime of a mediocre or above level locked away behind a level or score wall, skippable of course for people who don't care for that. If it had all kinds of hidden unlockable story content and just lots of story content in general sort of like the blazblue games or UNICLR then it'd probably be my favourite shmup.

I'm getting a few shmups on payday

Did we really need a 25 minute video introducing the idea that most people might have other shit to do in their lives than grinding a game 99,9% of the population doesn't know about? It's been three days since I've learned shmups didn't actually go extinct last century, and I can't play anything from the top recommended shmups, let alone enjoy it. It feels like taking an exam after you've been on a sick leave the whole semester. At least FGC tolerates button mashers (smugly) and there is a beatable single player mode before you get curbstomped by legacy players online

@TheElectricUnderground

11 ай бұрын

Sounds like this vid is for you then :-)

I will definitely say that what isn't helping the community is this seeming fascination Nintendo and Sony the remaining major companies in the shmup market have. I see release after release of these older titles that I actually want to play, but they are either japan only or only on switch and ps4. I have a PC and an Xbox One. Those are two entire platforms you could manage to get money from me on. M2 has stated that they wanted to bring games to PC but couldn't due to performance issues, but when these are ports of games that ran on now ancient hardware, and you have ports on the switch, the weakest console of this generation, I absolutely refuse to believe that.

@artemisDev

9 ай бұрын

That's when you emulate.

@IllusionistsBane

8 ай бұрын

Because, unlike with the arcade boards, they have no control over the hardware the game runs on - there are many PC manufacturers with their own quirks, and that's not mentioning people who build their own PCs. I think this is their risk aversion biting them in the rear end because they ended up entering the PC market after Touhou basically took all of it. The only time this was a noticeable problem with Touhou is with Touhou 6 reaching super high framerates before the community made the VSync patch to limit the framerate.

One big difference with fighting games is that every match is going to be unique, and you're not necessarily going to know what's coming from your opponent. And especially with contemporary games, they're constantly getting updates which produce new metas. I've always liked shmups but I've fallen in and out of playing seriously a couple of times over the years, and it's always been for the same reason - burnout from doing the same thing over & over. It takes a rare mindset to keep that up for years. The other thing is that even if you're not a serious player, Injustice or Soul Calibur will give you flashy impressive stuff to look at. Shmups pretty much fell out of keeping up in the spectacle game a long time ago.

i love shmups thanks to shmup junky but it s hard games to play i play raiden 3 i can t pass the 6 stage i am playing it evry day

Hahaha

More Hardcore... xD My Sides....

To me, shmups are like grindcore. I don't want it to be popular

@TheElectricUnderground

4 жыл бұрын

I m not saying we re dominating the air waves, but become healthy enough to sustain ourselves and have some sort of voice. But this vid isn t just about being popular with the masses, but maintaining a healthy environment for the current player base to interact with as well

@dimegoat

4 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground You're right. In France we have, I guess, a nice community of shmup players and super-players, like Prometheus (whom shmup.com was and still is the lair). But I must say that, in general, all japanese-related stuff (games, anime, manga, cinema etc.) are very popular in France, due to 80s and 90s TV shows.

So, you're saying you wouldn't play the genre if scoring systems didn't exist ? Think about it for a minute.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Probably not nearly as much, scoring is vital like speedrunning needs a timer

@ClownXmachina

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground Speed running isn't a game mechanic/feature. It's a challenge. Scoring is a feature. More score means you play more aggressively. Some ppl play the genre for the challenge of staying alive.