I recently instituted long rests being seven days. This causes characters using devices more. I also have been thinking about using DCC and Shadowdark magic instead where they don’t have spell slots but rolling the risk of memory loss.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I'd love to hear how that works out: I just had a discussion on my podcast with Bandits keep about using parts other systems when the base system your using doesn't cover something well. And the 7 day long rest would definitely make your players use their resources carefully!

Forbidden Lands rpg by Free League separates the damage types: “Hit point” damage decrease your attributes (full recovery after a day of rest) and critical injuries are what can kill you and can take days or weeks to recover.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I have not played that system, but this mechanic looks cool. I have looked at two other RPG's of this company: Symbaroum and Coriolis, but never had a chance to play them. I like the emphasis on gritty fantasy in those two rules sets.

I was a 1990's teenager, so I played a lot of system. Short rest came in with WotC 3e Star Wars, instead of Hp, they had Vitality points. Which in a way was their temporary hit points. Instead of spell/Force points to power Force user/Jedi force base skills and feat powers they used Vp vitality points to power force abilities. Lost of Vp/ or temporary hit points was to cover mental exhaustion using their special abilities. You had overall character level being strait single class or multiclass. A short rest is 15minutes long to get your breath back and to relax body tension. A 6th-levela character would regain 1d6+6vp after such rest where a 12th-level character regains 1d6+12vp after said rest. Hit points " dexterity stamina " in avoiding solid hits and build up lactic acids within muscle fibers and on set of crapping. Reenactors of Roman soldiers or Hema can only maintain a shield wall for 8min to 12min then fatigue sets in with reduce reflex parry/blocking action resulting in getting lethal hit in melee. Romans rotate ranks every six minutes to deploy fresh soldiers on the front line. d.) Star Wars 3e treat critical hits as constitution wound points. Along with taking a crit at times require a fort death save or died. If save is made then that PC takes a number of temporary wound dmg. As a house rule, call shots are temporary crit hits when Reflex saves fail.. e.) Other gaming systems have a one hit kill rule despite your current health level or number of Hp you have. And after playing VtM for sometime you just have to maintain the stake to the heart rule DC. If PC is dog pack shield wall pin like resulting in no more actions for the defending PC. Then they are helpless defender and the next flank/sneak attack on them provokes a death save from two hand spear grips or crossbow firing. In vampire/werewolf if you walk through a door frame and Fail your alertness/spot listening check. Your PC just gets their head shot gun off or crossbow. 2.) Optional damage result rulings. roll *d6 Example, PC moving for cover be it Star Wars, modern, or crossbows. 2.) Barely a near miss sidestep. Temporary Hp .. well that did get you breathing heavy and break a cold sweat. 3.) Projectile or melee weapon clips your shoulder. Just a light burn or scratch that needs a band aid. Temporary Hp. 4.) Your shield got kicked and jar your shoulder socket, .. Shake it off with fort save. Fail fort save you have to sleep that off. 5.) You head got jack or the flat of the attacker's weapon slap your head. .. Concussion .. Walk it off with a fort save for temporary Hp, fail first save then stander Hp you have to sleep off. Call it 1d3 temporary constitution dmg. If first save failed make second save and if that one fail, PC is knock out. ( In my last DM games she has everyone N/PC make saves passing near door frames. Even the big bad guy has a non dramatic moment where they can knock themselves out during play.) 6.) Lower ribs, the wind just got knock out of you. i.) Reflex roll with it to avoid dmg. ii.) glancing hit, temporary Hp. iii.) solid contact, that will leave a bruise, make fort save to see if PC has creak ribs. If blade cut you need medical treatment of duct tape/crazes glue to seal the cut. Sleep it off. Take 1d4 temporary con dmg. Stander Hp dmg. Critical Hits .. iv.) Well was you PC wearing armor ? Lower rib hit, broken bones with minor blood lose. If shot by energy weapon you got 2nd to 3rd degree burns. Risk blacking out. Fort saves for stander weapon dmg, with *d6 temporary dmg, and 1d6 permanent dmg. You have a limp for the rest of your life. v.) Crit dmg require fort save to keep from dying. Rib bones will need pull back and repair or replace. Modern medical is require to save PC. 2d6 temporary constitution dmg to sleep off till waking in days or hours. With 1d6 or more permanent dmg, take a desk job. Such dmg can be done by cheap sucker punch being mug, someone carrying a small 2lb hammer head in their hand with the handle up their jacket sleave. Palming a Dillinger and pistol shot at a bar. Baseball bat, any type or form of firearm at range. From the three hundred year old Civil war breech loading shot gun or a storm trooper Star Wars blaster. v.i.) PC is just dead, roll chart to see how the PC coughs blood with twitching or screaming to death. section 3.) I did a 1d6 die roll chart on all the way you can mess yourself up playing football/rugby. From walk it off to dam you need a E.R. Skill/ Athletics to group tackle an orc to the ground. D@m the orc was luck to land on your PC during take down, but all four of you landed on your arm the wrong way. It might need cut off. Ever read on how a compound bone fracture and pinch blood line and given the injury person a stroke if a clout developed ?

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

It's interesting how different systems treat combat: varying levels of complexity and "realism". I use quotations because usually the PC's get lots of breaks (excuse the pun!) in regards to taking sword and axe blows, concussive explosions and spell damage. I believe the Rolemaster system uses a "body part" system for calculating hits: some love this level of complexity, others want a more streamlined approach.

@krispalermo8133

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew Movie action, .. Conan, Die Hard, TMNT cartoons, classic Star Trek captain Krik fist fights. I came up with a 4d6 random result table of combat actions. With moves of stander hack and slash, spin attacks, jumping attack, Zen focus samurai show down run/charge by single cuts, light double rapid attacks, power attacks. I start to run out of ideals, then it hit me, .. ankle foot stomp, which can just Break the defender ankle. After watching some football games where the players twist or break an ankle, really just takes them out of the game. 2.) Fighting a shield opponent, medium size shield in stance gives the defender nearly full cover. Any Hp dmg will have to go to their shield arm in dealing with weapon hits, shoves or kicks which lead to shoulder joint injuries. Then you got head & should from blade slaps. There is always the lead foot to kick of stomp dealing shield push. As a foam weapon larp injuries are always looked out for. Sad note slipping and landing on your knee hard more than a few times over the years take their toll. We all have sport injuries and limps by our mid thirties. Stay safe. Even with Foam weapons with plastic cores, if blocking at the wrong angle instead of parrying, you feel the kinetic energy from your wrist, elbows, shoulders, and down to your lower back. If you have ankle nerve dmg already, you feel it all the way to the ground. Two on one sparring, first attacker goes high across angle cut to draw the defender's attention. If you block instead of parry. It jars your shoulders slowing your reflex to deal with the second person incoming attack. c.) Both of my gaming shops had padded weapons and a weight bench, you didn't just roll for your PC's strength score, you lift for it. Can an oak coffee table or foot stool block and defeat a sword attacker ? Padded weapon versus couch cushions pillow fight. Trick was you fast parry into the sword swing to slow the full kinetic momentum to prevent impact chopping build up. Then quick push bash the cushion/table into the other's face as a shield bash. Funning pillow fight in gaming shop. Second effect of having a shield shove into your face, defender PC loses .. eye range sight .. to get blind sided in a flanking attack. $20 for a bunch of cheap plastic baseball bats to larp fight makes for cheap entertainment. d.) New guy in gaming in late teens or early twenties debating/ arguing weapon tactic and how low level PC deal with combat compare to higher level PC. ( .. deep breath and prolong sigh ..) The DM and stander players all grew up larping and have ten to 15years of foam weapon training. e.) Shop owner little 5yo daughter walks up in the middle of the game and taps the new guy. Little girl, " See a trick ?" She rolls dice and says, " I am a halfling rogue and I just pick your pocket. " New guy looks at the DM the little girl's mom and, says " That doesn't count." DM, she smiles back at him. Everyone else at the table said, " Roll spot check cause it counts.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@krispalermo8133 I've not heard of larping to learn about the effects of weapons. Sounded like fun!

I began playing long ago with 1st Ed. In the DMG, Gary stressed the criticality of tracking both micro and macro time. You mention it in this video (and I need to find your video specifically on that subject!) because the "once per 24 hours" is extra tricky if the players do not have a reliable way to track time on their own. Do they even know when they can start their long rest? If they start an hour too early, what happens when they think they finished? If they wait longer to start the rest just to be sure, it will certainly delay when they start the next day. DMs dont have to go out of their way to "mess with" long rests. Just be a fair and impartial GM who keeps careful and accurate track of time. Very glad I found and subscribed to your channel. Excellent content! Thank you!!

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

So glad you liked it. And you're exactly right: you don't have to change the mechanic of the long rest, but instead think about the implications of a 24 hour period and what it means in running the game.

Hey Kevin, great video and topic. Always as a DM hated the 1 hp rule and completely healed with one long rest. Will probably Homebrew something if and when I get a campaign going. The 1 hp per level seems to make the most sense to me. Have no problem with the party taking a rest, if possible. If the party has to start worrying about time and food, to me that is part of the fun. Maybe as a DM let them know Kobold isn't half bad if cooked right 😉 Thanks Kevin you have a wonderful day!

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I ran for many years in 3.5 with that rule and it worked fine. But this meant low level characters had to get in and out of the dungeon/wilderness or risk death! It was only when the clerics went up in level and the players could buy healing potions or had healing items that they could go out for long distances.

I made long rests give you back your caster level in spell levels (10th level wizard can get a 5th, a 3rd, and a 1st level slot back) and you get half your hit die in hit points back

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I think it's interesting to make the journey back from expended resources a little tougher than just "you wake up and it's all good!" They have to be more careful and think things through.

I'm playing Shadowdark now and my players are used to 5e. I'm looking forward to how they change their play style without long rest full heals.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I've been playing Pathfinder in two different campaigns and Old School Essentials a bit lately. The lack of healing is daunting (especially in OSE) but makes for a more cautious and strategic game. Even the lack of a short rest makes quite a difference, which you always notice when you don't have them!

In my games, long rests don't restore hit points. Players learn to manage their resources and not to alpha strike every encounter. For a short dungeon (say 5 encounters) I might set it up so players can't get a long rest until they complete it, so they don't try to clear a couple of encounters then back out to rest. I also inflict levels of exhaustion if they get knocked out, but I use a variant of the 10 level system introduced in the 5.25 playtest, so it's not as bad. Players suffer longer term penalties for getting beaten to the verge of death as exhaustion is slower to recover, so healers try to keep them from getting dropped as opposed to letting them get knocked out then healing them, as the math is more efficient that way.

@DDHomebrew

2 ай бұрын

It's interesting that we as GMs tend to agree that the long rest mechanic RAW doesn't quite work, so we're always trying to modify it. It just seemed a better challenging when players had to husband their helping resources and hide out to heal.

Great stuff once again! Offtopic question: How's learning Pathfinder going?

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

I'm enjoying it. It's definitely a rules heavy system as opposed to some of the OSR style ones I've tried lately. But it all hangs together well.

I think for me, as both a player and a DM, I prefer to keep the story moving. So the 5e long/short rest mechanic is helpful for that. I struggle at times with DM's who ALWAYS look for a way to ruin a long rest. At that point, I feel like "sure, you beat the party, cause, that was your intention the whole time right?" Which is not at all the point of playing the game together. Occasionally, sure, when as a DM you notice the party has been doing plenty of roleplay and hasn't really had a combat scene in a while, and maybe they really didn't NEED a long rest but they're taking one, sure. Interrupt their sleep with an encounter. Or,... and here's an unpopular opinion... interrupt their sleep with a passer by, a noisy neighbor, a random salesperson, something non combat related. DnD doesn't have to be players vs the DM. But the story could be suuuuuuuper interesting along the way.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

Really good point. I tried to state several times in the video that as a GM you're not out to "beat" the players or ruin they're long rest, especially one that makes sense. It's only when I feel players are abusing the short and long rest rules by stopping after every encounter or when they've only used up 1/4 of their spells that I start thinking of ways to make them realize that if you sit for a long time in one spot in a dangerous place bad things can happen. And your ideas on non-traditional interrupts are great!

@twilightgardenspresentatio6384

Жыл бұрын

Or he wants you to feel like camping in an orc infested forest isn’t restful?

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 It does seem like you might have fitful night!

Do you make players remove their armor for it to be considered rest? 🤔 From a realism standpoint i understand it but i never liked that rule, it just becomes tedious. But it can make rests that are interrupted very interesting haha

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

Really great question! In the old days (as I remember) we made players take off their armor, but in the streamlined 5e PHB and DMG there are no rules for this, while in Xanathar there are rules on how you can't recover hit points or levels of exhaustion when you sleep in medium or heavy armor. All that said, I have read that soldiers did sleep for extended periods with many types of armor on, except for the classic full plate. Clearly they got enough sleep! And like you said, a lot of these "realism" rules got tedious and most of us started hand waving stuff like this.

@sgtbigballs666

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew my DM "mentor" insists on this rule but sometimes it's just an annoyance, we only play 2e with home brew haha, it can be really interesting if you're surprised while out of armor though, fighters not being prepared and such I can't even say if it's an actual rule, we've been playing so long haha

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@sgtbigballs666 The thing is, if it works for your group and you're all having fun then it's a good rule.

@sgtbigballs666

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew everyone always hates it rofl, I would never use it

@RaethFennec

Жыл бұрын

I never make my players do tedious things. The heroes are capable adventurers. They know to take off their armor to rest. If something happens at night, deciding whether or not to armor up or have the spell caster slap Mage Armor on you and go becomes part of the dynamic of the situation. I ran an event where a late night rider being pursued by monsters approached a besieged gate next to the inn my players were staying in. One of my players stopped to help the fighter suit up (I gave them half time) while some of the party ran to get intel. They had a countdown of sorts before they went into initiative to rush to the gate and join the guards in defending the sally port and helping get the messenger inside. But the moment of... "do I have time for my armor" was a very real and unique moment. Now they know to plan rests around having an armored and ready front-liner. But it's not something I would use against them unfairly, either.

I listened to this entire video while cooking, as I'm wont to do. I am a DM for multiple campaigns (and a player under two different DMs) so I'm always curious to see how other people approach the design and operation of the game. However, upon finishing this entire video, I cannot return to a single suggestion that was made. Nor even a strict outline of what was wrong with short or long rests, other than "it used to be different". The best I could come up as bulletpoints for the stream of consciousness I just encountered was "you gotta think about it" and "make stuff harder." Perhaps that was the intent, if this was aimed at curmudgeonly old grognards? But I'd like to offer you an opportunity to help me out if there was more I missed.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

No problem; here are my suggestions and supporting ideas presented in this video: I began with a common notion that the 5e long rest mechanics don't reflect the true impact of medieval style battles, using a clip from Orson Welles's Chimes At Midnight to emphasize the point that combatants would clearly need more than a night's rest to recover. I then argued that this is a game mechanic, not meant to reflect realism but to facilitate play, and should be taken as such and utilized to enhance the enjoyment of the game. I also stated my over-all thesis: that it is the 24 hour limit mechanic on the long rest in 5e, that should determine your strategies. There are two factors here baked in: time and space. You can't move and you must wait. As a GM, you accept these as an essential part of the any version of D&D and think about areas in your world that would vary in encounters, danger and monster strength to potentially deal with any player abuses of this mechanic. This could also be called a general suggestion. I also used a GIF of an old man yelling “get off of my lawn” to poke fun at the classic grognard position which holds that the older systems were inherently better. This was to suggest looking at working with the 5e mechanic instead of merely railing against it. I then gave a very brief history of resting over night in the various editions of D&D to show how they evolved from the one point per night days to the current 24 hour system, using graphics from the rules. These early systems reflected the notion I mentioned on attempting to be “realistic” in character recovery, while 4e began the extended rest, full hit point recovery system. I noted in a graphic a key change from 12 hours in the 4e system of extended rest as opposed to 24 hours in 5e. I then suggested using random monsters when players decided to simply stop running after one encounter. This would reflect the idea that the world they are in is a dangerous place where sitting still makes creatures and player characters a target. I then talked about Leomund's Tiny Hut, and suggested that you might give monsters and NPC's with spell abilities a dispel magic to counter this protection. I used a hag coven as a sample example, giving them a dispel magic spell instead of their usual spell list. I then suggested using a ticking clock story line to make players choose between resting constantly or completing an important task or competing with other NPC's and monsters. I suggested this could reflect a tension of real world demands over players' desire to maximize game mechanics. I then talked about dungeons and the difficulties inherent in taking long rests with random monsters and open rooms, showing dungeon examples. I suggested both creating rest areas with secret door rooms to facilitate the exploration of mega-dungeons and creating areas without clear resting spots to make them more dangerous. I then suggested thinking about battle conditions that might force players to use spells and expend hit points, which would be used in concert with my next suggestion, which was to create areas where taking a long rest was especially difficult owing to the terrain and monster population. I used swamps and mountains as suggested terrain here. I also talked about how in the old “1 point per day” period of D&D we had to rest for very long times, and how the modern mechanic eliminates that and facilitates faster play. This again was to suggest that the view that the old days were better is misplaced. Finally I repeated my basic thesis, which is that the long and short rest mechanics are not necessarily broken but instead can fall prey to players who insist on using the mechanic without consideration of the passage of time or danger in staying in one place. Hope that helps.

@RaethFennec

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew Thank you did the write-up! That's a lot of effort for a random commentor so I can tell you're passionate about this. Perhaps it was a failure to discard expectations based on the thumbnail and title. This reads more like "how long rests work in 5e for new DMs." Some of this is covered in the DMG with the exception of anecdotes and history, and/or demonstrated in modules. For example, they talk about random encounters for urgency and draining player resources. They also suggest having the players face several encounters between rests. However, it's fair that they don't explain in any great detail or specificity how to accomplish that, other than including example roll tables. So going over this is an excellent resource for new or inexperienced DMs. But does it explain or succeed on the title and implied goal? Well, I leave that to you to decide. Cheers! I hope the engagement does you well.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@RaethFennec I agree the title may have promised a "fix" of the long/short rest mechanic. I don't do homebrewed rules on this channel: for me homebrew is more about creating your own worlds, encounters and storyline. But, having heard the complaints about the resting mechanic I thought I'd offer my suggestions on ways to spice it up. By the way, a friend of mine listens to the podcast I do with Daniel Norton of Bandit's Keep while she's cooking. It's designed to be listened to instead of watched; check it out. open.spotify.com/show/5ATvkJKJVWgvlqQ1ZKbrd7

@RaethFennec

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew Fair, and thanks for the suggestion!

I always make long rests take a downtime activity.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

Interesting. Do you allow it anywhere, say in the middle of a dungeon crawl?

The biggest problem with rests in D&D is that it takes resources to get things done. Without resources (spell slots, HP, ki points, etc) you literally can not get things done. You have no control over the dice, so you can not guarantee a certain outcome of the "creative solutions" that some people will now be yelling to use instead of going into combat. And it's not just about getting things done, resources are also required to do most of the cool stuff that your class gives you. It increases your options in combat. Once resources are all gone, in most cases the only option you have left that is worth anything is "Attack". And then to get it all back, you have only one option which is : Do nothing for a long period of time. People can argue that doing more cool stuff and having faster HP regeneration feels like a video game. Perhaps they are right. But for some reason they forget that having daily resources that you need to accomplish anything meaningful is one of the most loathed modern game monetization/retention methods. The only thing missing is the GM telling the players "You can have it all back now for $5"

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

Really good points here. I tried to convey my thought that the long/short rest mechanic in 5e wasn't better or worse than other systems, just different. And they did this to allow for a faster means to get back the points and resources that are vital to each character class. But, if you have players that don't ever want to move or act without a full complement of these resources, you might want to create some scenarios where it just doesn't happen. This is a storytelling game, and the best stories show the heroes under duress: besieged on all sides with almost everything gone, forced to make innovative decisions or just try to escape.

@sitnamkrad

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew When it comes to mechanics, there's always different things that people like. Though often you can make some generalizations about what people experience and like. (this is why modern games are so financially successful, even though the practices they use are horrible, they work). The point of it being a story telling game often comes up to justify certain mechanics. Mostly with this exact same scenario of characters succeeding against all odds. But I'm often left wondering : What if they hadn't? And I really wish I was in a position to do some actual research on this. How many games were ruined because players were put in a situation where there was no way out, no resources, and all they could do was "Attack" and hope the dice gods were on their side. Do people even remember those games or are they left in the "we shall never speak of this again" part of our memories. When it comes to just stories (without a game element) people often forget that the writer will try to make sure everything happens in the way that is the best for the story. When we add a game element, and a randomized one at that, we can not give this guarantee. We're basically gambling with the way the story might unfold. And I'm wondering what the actual odds are.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@sitnamkrad If we stick to the die rolls, D&D will never be like a book or film, because everything is under the control of writer, unless the writer decides to use some randomizer to control the plot or character actions. On the other side is when the GM fudges die rolls to prevent a TPK or just move the plot in a different direction. Another question: is it a bad thing if the players have run out of resources and can only attack? Doesn't that happen in fantasy and action adventure plots? If the players win or survive because of great die rolling isn't it like our hero making it through incredible odds? Except here, unlike a ridiculous action movie, the players survive because they did beat the odds, not merely because it was written to happen that way. Isn't that pretty incredible and exciting? Maybe, but of course most of the time under those circumstances the players all die, and that isn't fun. Or maybe it was fun and exhilarating but it wasn't satisfying from a game standpoint. Or maybe it was because the players realize later that it was there own fault they got into this situation. We have to accept in a gaming environment that sometimes we lose, otherwise the game is no fun. And I guess as long as we lose fairly it was a good game.

@sitnamkrad

Жыл бұрын

@@DDHomebrew "is it a bad thing if the players have run out of resources and can only attack?" My opinion as game designer is "Yes". Mechanically speaking, once you only have one option left, the game loses almost all depth. There are no choices left to be made. And dice are the only deciding factor in resolving the situation. Sure, there's things like moving, and dodging, but these do nothing but prolong the inevitable. Attacks eventually need to be made until one side is left standing. Winning in this situation is not what I would call "beating the odds" but "getting lucky". Your skills as a player didn't do anything and the victory goes solely to the dice. It can be exciting, but it's exciting in the same way gambling is exciting. And when the situation ends in defeat, there is this feeling that there is nothing you could have done to prevent it. The outcome was decided the moment the battle started. It's basically railroading in combat form. In fantasy and adventure plots, these situations are also often resolved by a clutch moment where some McGuffin is remembered, the cavalry arrives, divine intervention happens, or the wizard finally casts that important spell with a half an hour cast time (or any of the other table turning tropes). It is very rare for these to be resolved with just a mindless slug-fest where one side can only do one the thing that everyone in the audience has seen a million times already. Because that isn't interesting. I know this is somewhat exaggerated since it's very rare for a party to be completely out of resources/options. But the point is that the less resources/options characters have left, the less mechanically deep the combat can be.

@DDHomebrew

Жыл бұрын

@@sitnamkrad I see your point here, though I'd say there can still be some battle tactics that aren't just hacking and slashing. You still have movement options, attack the leader or most powerful figure first, try to intimidate them into surrender using information the players have discovered a long the way about their enemy. I suppose that sort of information is another resource, but it's often not the sort players think about; they tend to think only of spells and items.