The "peace" farewell got me stoked

Its kind of nice to see the rest of the world is catching on to the geothermal heating/cooling; I've been a geothermal driller for 13 years straight now in the Nordic countries, drilling countless holes both for private housing, larger industries and everything in between, and what i can say is that geothermal is simply the way to go, you wont find a more energyefficient heating/coolingsource, especially in the heating segment, as we, the nords, get quite the Cold winters the GT systems have litteraly proven to lower the electric consumption by 400-600% compared to using direct electrical heating. HVAC's are not bad either and dont come with the same initial cost, but GT Will surpass/outlive them in the Long run.

I actually did that job for a few years. That rig is an air rig, which is ideal for rocky areas. Then there is mud rotary which uses a mud slury which uses bentonite to suspend the solids to help bring them to the surface.

@sigmaprojects

3 жыл бұрын

thanks for the info. Do you know how much does something like this cost to have installed?

@downhillboozer

3 жыл бұрын

I remember doing a system that had 10 units and I believe it had 14 wells that were drilled at 150 foot and the cost was around 250, 000 dollars. That was in 2017

@chuckdiesal83

3 жыл бұрын

@@sigmaprojects aas do

@sigmaprojects

3 жыл бұрын

@@downhillboozer ah, so not something cost effective to retro fit and more for new homes?

@MandoFettOG

3 жыл бұрын

@@downhillboozer 14 wells, that must've been a big house!

Allow me to explain some things to hopefully answer some questions. BTW, I have 45 years experience as a hydronic heating contractor with many GSHP systems in place. The heat pump is essentially a refrigerant based heat transfer system. It transfers heat (yup, just like your refrigerator) from point A to point B, or from point B to point A. These systems shine when cooling demands are the prevailing load. Most cooling systems are trying to reject heat using hot refrigerants into hot air, using hot air. Not a real energy efficient method. The Earth is always cool (to a point), and makes an excellent heat sink. When it comes to heating, it can do the work, but due to the use of refrigerants, is limited to a maximum operating temperature of around 115 degrees F. That doesn't work for most conventional hydronic based heating systems. Most conventional hydronic systems start at 140 degrees F, with the exception of radiant floor heating, which can use this low of an approach temperature. MOST is the key word. Tubing has to be installed at a higher density, like 6" on center, and in a highly conductive manner, like in concrete or an engineered floor system like WarmBoard. Why so many holes? The length of the "earth coupled heat exchanger" is based on the conductivity of the soil and the connected load. If its in a sandy soil, it is a terrible heat conductor, and will require more footage than say solid granite. As for the number of vertical bore holes, waters weight generates pressures of 1/2 PSI per vertical foot of elevation. The PE tubing does have a limitation on pressure. At the bottom of a 500 foot hole, the water pressure inside the tube will be around 217 PSI, which is probably OK if the tubing is cool (heating the home) but when its in cooling mode (rejecting heat), the loop temperatures can go to 115 degrees F, and that is where problems crop up, hence limitations in vertical length. As others have noted, like solar thermal, the ROI is WAY out there, and if it weren't for the Federal tax subsidies (which are scheduled to expire soon) the economics are terrible. The break even point is outside the life expectancy of the system (15 to 20 years) so the only people who will be doing GSHP without tax credits are those people who feel they are doing something for the environment, and the future occupants of Earth. Then there is the C.O.P., which stands for coefficients of performance. The hotter the water temperature needs and the lower the heat source temperature, the lower the COP. Eventually, the COP drops to less than 1, then you are better off using an electric boiler or strip resistance haters (for forced air distribution), which also has a COP of 1. In fact, due to the excessive cost of the holes, most designers will spec the heat pump to handle 60 to 80% of the actual load, and then depend on electric back up to handle the peak load conditions. A little history, GSHPs are not new. Thomas Edison had one in his home in New Jersey, MANY years ago. The newest trend coming across the pond is Air Source Heat Pumps, which essentially use the ambient air as a heat source. You are still dealing with the same limitations of temperature that GSHP's do, except in cooling mode, you are back into the inefficient mode of using hot air to reject hot air. The air side heat exchangers on these units are significantly larger than a conventional AC unit for obvious reasons. They also still ice up, especially during heating season, and require the use of electrical energy to defrost the outdoor unit. For me and my money, I prefer the use of Solar thermal energy (not to be confused with Solar PV, its electric cousin) coupled with an underground polyethylene storage tank and the WSHP (same unit used for GSHP). Solar thermal panels have been around for hundreds (yes, hundreds) of years, and suffer very little performance degradation over their lifetime. Their efficiency is between 60 and 80% efficient, compared to PV at 20% peak efficiency, and an expected degradation from day one, with a life expectancy of around 20 years. With the buried tank (below frost line) you extract so much heat out of the water that you actually freeze it solid. Then, ANYTHING with a temperature greater than 32 degrees F becomes a "heat source" to melt the ice back into water. Here's a dirty little secret. Water, when transitioning from 33 degrees F to 32 degrees F carries one BTU per pound, per degree F. When transitioning from 32 degree F water to 32 degree F ice, it requires 144 BTU/pound per degree F. It's known as the latent heat of fusion. So, a 500 gallon tank of water can constitute a HUGE amount of energy, when going from say 70 F to 31 F, and as previously noted, ANYTHING with a temperature greater than 32 degrees F becomes an energy source. This includes your snow melting system (basically a large surface area unglazed solar collector), solar thermal collectors, drain waste heat recovery, even the ambient air. Imagine the thermal performance of a flat plate solar collector thermally connected to a 32 degree F block of ice...This type of system is called a thermal battery system, and is MUCH less expensive than a GSHP system to install and maintain, and makes economic sense. Sorry for the book, but now you know. Pay it forward :-).

@JH-tc3yu

3 жыл бұрын

There are so many just plain dumb, wrong, false things in this novella that it's not even funny. I'm not even going to get into them. At 15,000 out of pocket, our geo will be paid for in less than 5 years. Anywhere that doesn't have access to natural gas is going to have payback in 5 years. Who TF is using gshp to heat water? Everyone is heating air. COP never drops below 1 in a GSHP. Ever. It doesn't even drop below 1 in a much more inefficient ASHP even when it's -5. Our last air source heat pumps still had a COP of 1.9 at negative 5 degrees ambient temp.

@dustin9719

2 жыл бұрын

@@JH-tc3yu Exception to the rule. The lion share of geothermal and solar power have massive capitol costs and long term ROI 15-20 years.

@justinlynch6691

2 жыл бұрын

Trying to decipher this solution. You're claiming that putting closed loop pipes in this tank, that you can use less pipe and maintain a higher COP because of the resistance water has to freezing? And what exactly do these freezing cycles do to a plastic tank? And how does the water circulate from your solar panel to the tank when it's frozen solid? All this is making a case for is sourcing the heat pump with water, which is heated by solar, and hoping the "battery" is big enough in case the sun doesn't shine... Or drill 2x300 foot wells with no casing and be done with it.

@richardmartinez8750

8 ай бұрын

Say brother do you know of any companies hiring for that? I roughnecked for 14 1/2 years.

Would love to know the advantages / disadvantages - initial costs, repair costs of horizonal vs. vertical closed loop systems - and concerns if you have a well on your property.

@nicolascoles7402

2 жыл бұрын

Limited maintenance or repair needed. System can lay 50 yrs, pipes ~100 yrs barring any geological shifts. I'm curious about well issues too though

@GReddy2319

3 ай бұрын

My parents have an open loop geothermal running directly off the domestic water supplied by the well. For most of my life I always assumed it was a closed loop system, and only recently learned that it was coming from the well. Aside from the drop in water pressure in the house, it has been a solid system with no issues to the well for the 40 years it has been installed. Obviously this is the most cost efficient install since there is almost no infrastructure (they do have a waste outlet that flushes out below the driveway), but it has to be less than ideal for well users. They are close to a decent sized river, so the water table is likely very stable, but even with a larger expansion tank off the well line, the pressure loss is substantial.

Interesting! And very well explained. Thank you!

That peace goodbye threw me off 😂

Of course, it wouldn't be a New England jobsite without an empty pack of New ports thrown on the ground

Interesting difference! In Scandinavia we use different equipment and deeper holes, like 6-700 feet? 200-250 meters. cost of the drilling itself without the installation is somewhere around 7-10k dollars depending on the current currency diff.

It is great to use a renewable, sustainable, and eco-friendly energy source in such a way. Interesting brief explanation!

Is that 1-1/4 poly pipe? With a weight at the end?

The pipes being next to each other in the borehole is a definite minus to the closed loop borehole. If water is of descent quality and less than 70 meters, open loop is better.

Now I know how to do it. One question - where can I rent that sweet rig?

@Mike__B

3 жыл бұрын

Buy one at Harbor Freight for only $20 more than the rental cost! 🤣

@Mike__B

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of Or your free digital multimeter with purchase of $25 or more

@MariuszChr

3 жыл бұрын

@Kevin Byrnes Jr. Why?

@MariuszChr

3 жыл бұрын

@Kevin Byrnes Jr. Why? If I screw up - I screw up in my yard.

@tommoffitt4583

3 жыл бұрын

Very few companies rent truck mounted drill rigs and if they do it is typically by the month or longer. A new drill rig similar to the Reichdrill that is shown, would cost about $750k to $900k to purchase depending on the pullback, compressor size and options it is equipped with. This is without drill steel, tooling and the necessary support equipment which can add another $100k to $175k. Most US states require that either the driller/operator or the drilling company are licensed. Most states and counties also require permits for any boreholes as they penetrate an aquifer so there are rules and regulations requiring how they are installed and grouted. Additionally, you would need a CDL (commercial drivers license) to drive the truck and years of experience to run the rig.

What’s the cost range of a geothermal system???

Where do I sign up for the job?

Don't know if it's true but I've heard that drilling through rock is so expensive the the money you save on heat won't even pay for the interest on the loan. Please correct if that's not true.

Question.. wouldn’t verticals drilling cause the pump to have to work harder to pump the antifreeze up such a distance? I would think horizontal pipes would be easier and allow the pump to work less.

@raymondrowland

2 жыл бұрын

You would have to drill much farther

@asicengineer

2 жыл бұрын

No, because the the anti-freeze water goes down and up. There is no energy loss. Every gallon going up is pushed by a gallon going down.

@davidhenry3732

11 ай бұрын

Hydraulics work in amazing ways. When you are able to percieve the function of liquid flow it makes more sense. This can be done with trenches and loops/coils of tubing. Friction is the enemy however minimal.

One thing they are missing is the water/mud required to pump out the dirt and rock from the hole

I remember when This Old House used to show you how to DO things. Nowadays, it seems to be 'Bring in this group of pros, and give them a bunch of money'. There's no way *I* could drill for thermal energy, and no hint of costs here that I could use to calculate any potential savings.

@DenEvigePeder

10 ай бұрын

20-40k in the US per house i would guess, 50-60 if it has to be converted to fit the system with new radiators and all that. Otherwise i might be coming overseas with a rig and a couple of plumbers. xD

Is that have a certain place or soil to do a geothermal energy

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

No, not really. You might not want to put it in the side of an active volcano, but otherwise it's just a very long tube stuck in the ground.

@mnbvcx

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielgehring7437 On the side of a volcano it would be much warmer at least ;-)

@zenseed75

3 жыл бұрын

The hot water in iceland will scald you.

@72strand

3 жыл бұрын

They drill in rock, Soil is only a short bit.

@scotttovey

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielgehring7437 "You might not want to put it in the side of an active volcano, " What!? Where's your sense of adventure!

Oh no, I dropped my keys!

Why always two wells?

Oh man i thought he dropped that ubend down the actual hole for an instant

Wow that's a deep hole

@etipsascientiapotestasest6532

Жыл бұрын

Demogorgon basement.

You should answer more questions. Why two holes? Why 15’ apart? Why different depths?

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

They dig two holes because one probably wouldn't be able to move enough heat around to make a different in the house's temperature; if you built a very small house you could get away with one but, in the video, you can see they're building a pretty big one. They put them as far apart as possible so the pipes don't interfere with each other. If you put them too close you'd be wasting a lot of your time just heating up the ground instead of your house. That's also why they put them at different depths, so they can take advantage of different parts of the ground's internal heat. Google is your friend, though. There are way more options and variables than they touched on in the video, or that we'll be able to answer for you here, especially because everyone's going to need something slightly different depending on where they live. This video was only designed to let people know the process exists.

@steveuible5915

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielgehring7437 Thank you Daniel for your educated answers. It seems you have experience in this area. It seems like a very logical and efficient system. I asked the questions because my cousin installed a similar system that was a disaster and ended up In a lawsuit with the manufacturer and contractor being held liable. Thanks again.

@steveuible5915

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of How do you know it does not concern me ? Your comment was flippant.

@michaele1201

3 жыл бұрын

As others have implied, it is all about thermal transfer, or the amount of heat that can dissipate into, or absorb from the soil. I would imagine the calculations are pretty consistent. Seems to me the variables would be how many tons of air and size of the heat pump required.

Wow, what a hole!

@LetsGoBrandon-FJB

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of same here, mostly by the ex-wife.

Why dig two holes?

Are we still going to be getting these videos now that roku owns you?

@BLUELEADER78

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of, keep that 56k dial up modem geothermally cooled!

Where I live if you drilled that deep you would strike boiling water

@Gamerz00760

3 жыл бұрын

If that is the case, id be running geothermal energy plant instead or a smaller version to power the house. They use the hot water like that for steam power plant

If you’ve got the room, horizontal is the way to bore. Much cheaper.

@gregj2647

3 жыл бұрын

@UCyVJhouNgdKXwi3QoAnLmTA horizontal only goes 12-15 feet deep and is installed with a boring machine. You’ve probably seen them installing cables on the side of highways. I just had a geothermal system installed with 11 loops. System worked great through this past winter here in Minnesota

@synewparadigm

3 жыл бұрын

How much cheaper?

@gregj2647

3 жыл бұрын

@@synewparadigm don’t know exactly as the bill Wasn’t itemized but my system has 11 loops cost for the boring was less than 4k.

And what did you do exactly...more clarification needed...a big hole and a big price tag...and the warranties are? And the specs are what??

@shelbysmalls5867

3 жыл бұрын

pointless to tell you, whatever their warranties and specs are (wrong words for this by the way) it won't be the same as your local guys if you don't live there ask your local guys

Around here holes are around $100/foot. Are those $75k holes?

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

You'll typically spend about $20k-$40k to have the whole system installed, with only maybe $5k of that for the actual cost of digging the holes. I expect the issue where you live has to do more with shipping in the equipment necessary to dig one.

@GregsWorkshopOregon

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielgehring7437 I guess I should clarify that that price is for a water well, maybe geothermal is cheaper than water?

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

@@GregsWorkshopOregon Hmm. $100 a foot still seems mighty dang high, but yes, well drilling is generally more expensive. You need to find an aquifer and install real pipes with a well, but geothermal is a closed system that you can just use, like, PVC for if you want.

@samuelmorris2295

3 жыл бұрын

@@GregsWorkshopOregon I'd imagine that the setup up and intitial digging is a lot of that $100 per foot number since most wells are only going 40-50 feet. It doesn't add much cost to go even deeper (to a extent)

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

@@GregsWorkshopOregon Oh also I forgot to mention before that if traditional up-down boreholes are too expensive, you can always just put them sideways instead. That way you're only going down 10 feet instead of 300.

Tongue sten Cahr bye

If it’s consistent 50 degrees at 20 feet deep, why go to 300 plus feet?

@zack9912000

3 жыл бұрын

Because one being manufacturers requirements for consistency of load the ground can handle for Said required BTU and code.

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

Because the pipe needs to run far enough to absorb that temperature. The same reason your car radiator or air conditioner has to coil a bunch of times. You're completely right though: down-bore geothermal, like in the video, has long been considered the silliest option if you want to get this done, it's more expensive and not all that efficient. Most people who get a system like this either just dig another well and use their groundwater for the heating/cooling, or dig a pit that only goes down about 10' and put the piping sideways in slinky coils.

@jonnyk2717

7 ай бұрын

​@danielgehring7437 I was gonna say why but just do 20ft with coiled tubing instead of 150ft lol

Where's tom

@LetsGoBrandon-FJB

3 жыл бұрын

digging in his ear with a 10 penny nail

@LetsGoBrandon-FJB

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of or a festool router bit

@LetsGoBrandon-FJB

3 жыл бұрын

@@brianglade848 jigsaw blade for the itch

Dude, you explained it 2 times LOL we ain't dumb Rich

@zack9912000

3 жыл бұрын

he is.

This is a really cool technology, it's a shame that the $20,000-$30,000 cost means that not many people want to invest in it

@nicolascoles7402

2 жыл бұрын

Govt incentives knock out over 25%

@thefrub

2 жыл бұрын

@@nicolascoles7402 That still leaves $15,000-24,000, versus $3,500-7,500 for a regular HVAC. With a typical system lasting MAYBE 40-50 years if you maintain it, you're not going to recoup that extra cost in energy savings unless you're heating a mansion

@DenEvigePeder

10 ай бұрын

@@thefrub It´s mainly for places with hard winters and high energy costs like Scandinavia where i drill these things, it´s around 20k for the entire installation if you already have hydronic heating.

@creedohler8526

7 ай бұрын

@@thefrub congrats if you can get 40-50 years of solid heating and cooling out of a standard furnace/condenser setup. The life-span of those $7,500 units sits closer to 15 years.

*I want to know how to do this without using "grout" and without using "antifreeze". NOTHING lasts forever and I don't want to remove 10 tons of grout to get to the pipe and if there's a leak I don't want antifreeze contaminating the water table, or even the dirt at that level.*

@danielgehring7437

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you want what's called 'open loop' geothermal, which just uses your well aquifer to leech the heat/cool from instead of the setup they're using here. It's not available in a few places because of local laws or just lack of a robust aquifer, but for most places it's cheaper and more effiicient anyway, I wish they would have at least mentioned it in the video.

@zack9912000

3 жыл бұрын

Not a DIY job at all

@maxsteel8031

3 жыл бұрын

@@Kevin-mp5of *maybe they should create an adapter so I can run one off solar*

@maxsteel8031

3 жыл бұрын

@@zack9912000 *that carbide drill bit will only set you back a few thousand dollars*

@maxsteel8031

3 жыл бұрын

@@danielgehring7437 *"open loop" I'll remember that. you wouldn't happen to know how to test water for things like salmonella without using some state run lab, would you? is there such a thing as a home kit that's certified and reliable?*

50degs isn't that warm. If it's really cold out I'm going to want my house warmer than 50 degs. How does the system take that 50degree antifreeze and boost it higher so my house is a cozy 72

@Tavbiy

3 жыл бұрын

the 50 degrees is "free" now you only have to waste energy/money generating the last 22 degrees.

@devan2462

3 жыл бұрын

That is not how those work

@ElectricGears

3 жыл бұрын

The same way a tradition heat pump can boost the cold outside air temperature up to a higher indoor discharge temperature. A heat pump is able to move heat from a cold area to a warm area by compressing the refrigerant gas. This higher pressure makes the gas hotter than 72° so the 'indoor coil' gives off heat to your house. This cools the refrigerant so when it is allowed to expand pack to it's normal pressure in the 'outside coil' it becomes colder than the outside air. Only then is the heat from 20° outside air able to flow into the 10° refrigerant. Compressing it brings it back up to the higher temperature and the cycle is repeated continuously. The antifreeze in the ground loop gives heat to what would be the 'outside coil' on a traditional system. The 'outside coil' normally exchanges with air which might be 20° or below, now it exchanges with the 50° antifreeze. You receive an enormous boost in efficiency because the antifreeze is already much warmer than the outside air. This means that the compressor does not have to work as hard to generate the temperature gradient that forces the heat flow into the building. It's enough to offset the cost of drilling the holes.

@richardraymond5535

3 жыл бұрын

@@ElectricGears I bought a house with geothermal and it’s awesome. When it’s 100 outside I can cool my house to 60 and it does it quick!!! Also full spray foam and it barely has to run. Great system.

Why so deep?

@dw2843

3 жыл бұрын

Has to be deep for temperature to be 50 constantly

@dtemp132

3 жыл бұрын

More depth = more ability to exchange heat with the ground

@Trace842

3 жыл бұрын

Longer pipe means time for the temperature to change. Some systems are installed very shallow but zigzag across a large area. The vertical install is more efficient and doesn't tear up the whole yard.

This just reeks of expensive

@zack9912000

3 жыл бұрын

very expensive and without government money involved it wouldn't be even a thing. Good systems start at 30 grand

this old that's what she said

Yea, but at at least a 13 year payback and high service cost, this really isn't An ideal option. These systems cost upwards of $25,000! Compared to $8,000 for a conventional heat pump!

@synewparadigm

3 жыл бұрын

Only $25k?

@pointedspider

3 жыл бұрын

@@synewparadigm yeah, only!!!

@synewparadigm

3 жыл бұрын

@@pointedspiderI wonder how long it takes to pay it back?

@pointedspider

3 жыл бұрын

@@synewparadigm 6-7 years with 2 required services a year!

@synewparadigm

3 жыл бұрын

@@pointedspider do you mean 2 maintenance services a year or 2 repairs?

Not real keen on putting antifreeze in the earth

Miss Molly loves to sniff out the bad guys!

@LetsGoBrandon-FJB

3 жыл бұрын

like how uncle joe likes to sniff yung gurls

How to.... pay someone else to do it.

@Mike__B

3 жыл бұрын

How to... so here's a shovel...

Yea, no. This is not "geothermal" in the traditional sense (using very hot water, aka steam to generate power). This is just digging a hole in the backyard to keep your HVAC at a certain temperature.

@gregj2647

3 жыл бұрын

The equipment in the house is where the heat/cooling exchange takes place. I’m sure there will be another video explaining that in the near future