One thing we wanted to clarify that's a bit confusing in the video: we talk about "adding links". You're not actually adding links to the chain, you're adding links to the *length* of the chain before you cut it. For example, if you measured big to big and that measurement left you with 6 extra links on the new chain (that you would cut off), before cutting the chain you would *add* 2 links (assuming it's a 9-11 speed system) and would only end up cutting off 4 links.

@bodhiodo_

3 жыл бұрын

So do you have to run it thrue ur derailleur? (Bevore cutting it)

@bodhiodo_

3 жыл бұрын

Syd plz in going on a vacation soon i realy need an awnser

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Nope. Measure as explained in the video

@andyalexander5816

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! This is really helpful 😄

@edritchie270

2 жыл бұрын

Do you count 1 pin as a link or 1 link has 2 holes?

You have such a cute personality and you use that brilliantly. Not only is saying "round the hill, over the fence, and down the waterfall" very cute but it is simply brilliant. Thank you. I have early-onset Alzheimer's disease and it is very hard for me to remember which way things go or what they are called. Now I will use the "Syd Method" and never again forget how to tread a chain through a derailleur. Thank you for the great work you and Macky do on both your channels. You and Macky seem like wonderful people. I hope and pray that God will bless both of your lives and all your endeavors.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Glad to hear it was helpful! And thanks for the kind words 🙏

I come to this channel first when I need to know how to do something -- thank you!

I can still hear you saying you would never break the chain! It's a bummer you didn't need to take a link out of the chain. The snap you get when the pin pops out of the link when using the chain breaker on modern chains is really satisfying!

This is the best chain measuring and fitting vid on the internet, that I have seen. Just checked my brand new bike I picked up from LBS. It's a 12x1 SLX the chain had the writing on the inside not facing out and the length was incorrect. Thank you both for all the time you put into this channel.

Quick tip, bend a piece of wire to clip onto chain rollers. This can hold it in place with some slack as you join the chain with a chain tool or master link. I think they sell them, but it is pretty easy to make one.

@ironman1518.

3 жыл бұрын

YEP!! Can use a piece of old broken spoke and curve/bend the ends. Works great!!

@MTBDennis

3 жыл бұрын

A straightened out piece of paper clip does pretty well.

@michaelglidewell1524

3 жыл бұрын

I made one from a wire coat hanger. There's small one that comes with my multi-tool but I like the one I made for shop use because it's longer and gives you more room to use the quick link tool.

@bengt_axle

3 жыл бұрын

Or just take it off the front chain ring and that will give you more slack. Put it back when QL is installed.

@kayakutah

3 жыл бұрын

@@bengt_axle Yeah, THIS!

You two rock and you are a great team. I learned what I came for and I thank-you!

"around the hill. over the fence. down the waterfall." saved me a trip to the bike shop. thank you, thank you, thank you so much! this is all I needed to get back on my bike hahah

Every single video is sooo helpfull. Ty! Keep up the amazing work!

Thanks for the 12 pin trick! Was curious if my chain was stretched, but lo and behold... it's completely ok and right on center. Saves me a few bucks! :)

Love your channel. Thanks guys!

Great concept for a series. Documenting an apprentice learning the ropes. We've all been exactly where she is and she's handling it much more gracefully than I did, I must say. xDDD

Love watching the videos. Can you do one on how to know when you need to change the cassette and chainring due to wear?

beautiful mechanic

Thanks for sharing this Information 🙏✌️❤️

I changed my chain 3 days ago....but didn't have too many problems after I found out how to install the Shimano quick link, which was a pain. I just measured the chain against the old one and its purring nicely :-)

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

That's definitely the way to do it if you have the old chain!

KMC Digital chain tool. What the pros use and it’s spot on every time. Get Rohloff cassette wear checker and you’ll never miss worn cogs on a cassette either.

@Asthbendriel

3 жыл бұрын

This Shimano is probably the most accurate analog one, but KMC one is quite badass as well.

@michaelmechex

3 жыл бұрын

No need to pay 10 times as much for that thing when a single piece of metal works so well, especially in case of a chain checker, which is a tool that everyone should own. I really like the one from BBB, it has a gauge on it and shows you how much is worn, not just if it's worn out or not.

@setransou

3 жыл бұрын

Except that thing is precise and accurate which is what you want if you want to squeeze every last bit out of a chain before swapping. Can’t say that for analog sadly.

@jacobjames1171

3 жыл бұрын

A Park Tool 3.2 chain checker is fine. Chains are cheap enough to replace and shouldn't require an expensive tool that will hardly get used.

@Asthbendriel

3 жыл бұрын

@@jacobjames1171 well, that depends on the chain 😅 I use a KMC ex11-SL Ti-Ni chain which costs me around $100 in every exchange, so changing it with some life left is a waste of money TBH

Great vids :-)

Wondering if you might be able to do a demo of what you do to look after bottom brackets? Mine is a bit creaky and a sealed bearing. You do such useful demonstrations for what to do it would be great to see what you get up to.

After working on bikes for a long time you get a good idea what the chain length is. I always run directly through derailleur, and cut links based on how far the cage moves.

When you compress the suspension it quite often creeps back to a longer extension, you can put the rebound on full to stop this.

Syd is so funny !

Nice video thanks! Of course, if you are replacing a correctly sized chain you can measure and break the new chain based on the length of the old chain. And if you’re rear mech has a clutch you can lock it open while removing the old chain putting on the new chain which makes it easier (GRX doesn’t have?).

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, since we were changing the chainring and the old chain wasn't the right size, we forgot to mention that you can normally just use your old chain. GRX does have a clutch, but the Shimano clutches work differently that SRAM ones and don't lock extended.

When I learned not to let my chain get too worn, my cog teeth looked more like waves crashing on the beach rather than many peaks of a mountain range.

@johnsonjay60

3 жыл бұрын

Line the 12 up to a pin if its lined up your good 👍

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Haha! Yup, been there too!

@illyadmark3223

3 жыл бұрын

I'm in the process of replacing the entire drive chain on my commuter bike because I let the chain get too worn. DOH!!!

Over the wall and down the waterfall.....I like it lol

Can you do "how to service KS lev Dropper post or something similar"? Thank you. Good video btw. New subscriber now!

You mention checking derailleur set up after putting the chain on. It's easier to do part of that check with the chain off, as it's easier to see high and low limit screw alignment without the chain. Then check shifting after you put the chain back on. If the chain isn't off, you don't have to take the chain off to accomplish this, but if it's already off, it makes it easier.

Syd is the Claire Saffitz of bike repair.

Great video! When installing a new chain, I like to temporarily remove the chain from the front chain ring to provide some slack while joining the quick link. I have the Park Tool chain tool. How come the Shimano tool has 3 prongs instead of the more traditional 2?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Because then you can use the same squeezing motion but different prongs to connect the chain vs disconnect it! It's awesome!

I love the intro tune. Edit, Do you run a bike shop?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Nope, but we race professionally, thus the spares parts and lots of bikes.

Rode my bike for the first time in a while. Got too excited and didn’t do maintenance beyond a tire check. Completely folded 2 links in on themselves on a down shift and had to walk home lol.

Setting a quick link together with no tools is easy. Just pull both ends by hand. Getting one apart with no tool is an adventure of pain and misery that I keep putting myself on.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We've had lots of ones that were definitely too tight to connect by hand, but yeah, getting it off is definitely the more difficult!

@bradholden2971

3 жыл бұрын

A neat trick I used from Seth’s Bike hacks is a shoe lace to undo the link. That got me home one day.

@robertlight2370

3 жыл бұрын

I’ve used a loop of old cable to undo quick links. Put them together by hand and then press on the pedal with one foot to click them together. However, I’ve got the right pliers now which makes things easier.

@scottyh72

3 жыл бұрын

Use channel locks at an angle to remove the quick link if you do not have the tool. You put the link into the jaws of the pliers in such a way (diagonal) that it causes the links to slip into the open position when you squeeze the pliers.

On my bikes I only cut out one link that's it but I use a 8 speed chain

Thanks to this video I've realised I need to replace the chain and the cassette on my road bike. It is set up with ultegra however the ultegra chain and cassette are more expensive than for example the 105. I was wondering if I could get a cheaper one from shimano or even from a different brand?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, all the different Shimano levels are compatible, so you can definitely replace with a less expensive cassette/chain/chainrings. You *should* be able to replace with non-shimano parts, but it isn't as sure a bet...

Love the videos. You mention a shimano tool. Does the brand of chain matter in the way it is installed?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Nope!

Request...... a vlog on how to fit tyres on and off high rim wheels... I broke my plastic tyre levers and bent 2 strong ( i thought ) spoons and the metal tyre levers I had were too small and dug into my hands and scraped the rim badly PLUS I have ruined 2x innertubes.... my fatbike tyre changing is a breeze compared. Thanks guys..

@vaughntonkin539

2 жыл бұрын

Fat bikes are easy to fix tyres on, the only thing that sucks about fat tyres is they're puncture magnets

Syd Fixes Bikes: "(assuming it's a 9-11 speed system) " Yes when I was done with this video and fixed my chain I used the 911 system! They arrived shortly after!

You know Oz Cycle has interesting results with paraffin wax lube and chain life. He's been perfecting it over about 12 vids spanning 4 years. He claims 250-300 k per waxing and 15,000 k per chain in wet and dry weather. He also makes a squeeze bottle wax booster solution for between waxings and makes an MTB/Bad Weather wax solution/booster that includes paraffin oil super lubing. I ordered a new chain and am shopping for materials.

In the video, when you are counting links to add length to the chain, you are referring to half links. One inner plus one outer equals one link. Or, as I've seen done before, it's possible to refer to rivets to prevent confusion.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, counting rivets is a good idea.

When you're counting links, are you counting them in pairs or individually? Meaning is one link an inner and an outer link combined or is one link an inner link or an outer link?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

The latter. Inner + outer = 2 links

Again a good video, maybe with a little less camera-work, so for example you did not show the flansh on the derailleur in detail, where the chain has to go over...also never heard about the 12" lenght. In Germany it will be 30,5cm, I will measure that tomorrow....

nice

Chain snapped 5 miles from home yesterday and trapped between spokes and sprockets, long walk carrying my bike. Why didn't I wait for this video first before that happening!?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Sorry to hear it! That's the worst!

Watched this video this morning when it was released.... today I snapped my chain on my ride for the first time ever, coincidence? I think not 🤨

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We can see the future, we thought everyone knew that already 😉

Please use a ruler as the tape may stretch and the finer the marks the better. Great video. Do you use Connex links

Chains stretch:)

Is it fine just to match the new chain length from the previous one? Or does this change as the cassette and other components wear?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Yup, you can match to the previous chain.

The smaller cogs always get worn way before the larger cogs. Even replacing the chain before 0.7 the thing will likely skip with a new chain.

@krzysiu4003

3 жыл бұрын

If you are wearing out the small sprockets more than the bigger ones then I think you need a bigger chainring(s). It should be the middle sprockets that wear more as that it where you should be spending most of riding time in.

You mentioned compressing your suspension. Is that for any bike that has rear suspension? Or just gravel bikes? I feel like that's a stupid question and the answer is obvious.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Not a stupid question! Yes, it's for any bike with rear suspension as most bikes chain length "grows" (increases) as they go through their travel and you don't want to size your chain without taking that into consideration.

easier to connect the chain if you take it off the front chain ring temporarily.

Um please reply Why is my caliper already braking itself, btw this is hydraulic

Is it safe to reuse quick links?

@EverythingMTB1

3 жыл бұрын

I do it. But then again, my bike is in the bike shop needing a whole new drivetrain. So maybe don’t reuse them. 😊

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Most new chains come with a quick link, so we use that one when installing it and keep the old one to use for trailside repairs. We've never had issues reusing them, but some people say you shouldn't 🤷‍♀️

@kayakutah

3 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes Yeah, I also keep the old ones, but the time I tried reusing the quick link, it didn't work as well as a new one. I never reuse them now, on 12 speeds.

Curious someone at bike shop told me to measure like syd did, but chain stretch is a myth and its the rollers that where out, shouldn't we measure the rollers and not the pins?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, it is true that chains don't actually stretch (the metal does not become longer). What's happening is the pins, rollers and sleeves (basically the connection points) start to break down which changes the length of the chain. So, yes, they get longer (which is why measuring works) but no, they don't "stretch".

@dontridethatruss

3 жыл бұрын

Right on, Syd! The parts of the chain wear (mostly from dirt grinding them down), and hence those parts get smaller - this means the spaces between the bearing surfaces of the chain get larger which gives the *appearance* of “stretching.”

@vaughntonkin539

2 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes I've heard the stretch term from a bike shop when my single speed bike ran out of adjustment in the rear drop outs, axle back as far as possible, the bike was flipping the chain. The bike shop said I need a new chain

Are you using quick links to connect the xtra links or a pin?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We're using a quick link to connect the chain, which is the only connection there is. We realized it's a bit confusing in the video because we talk about "adding links". You're not actually adding links to the chain, you're adding links to the *length* of the chain before you cut it. For example, if you measured big to big and that measurement left you with 6 extra links on the new chain (that you would cut off), before cutting the chain you would add 2 links (assuming it's a 9-11 speed system) and would only end up cutting off 4 links.

So what's up with "don't reuse Shimano quicklinks"? I want to do a chain deep clean but what's stopping me is that I don't have spares and that one bit about them being single use. I'm with a 2x11 by the way.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We've never had any issues reusing them (honestly didn't realize they claim to be single use). They probably just say that so if something happens they can say "we told you not to reuse it".

@Senzeni

3 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes thought so

One small tip I haven't seen anywhere: Do not measure your chain over the quick link, it will grossly exaggerate the wear of your chain. Go ahead and try for yourself, it's noticeable on any mildly worn chain. So does that mean that the quicklink stretches faster?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Good question. Or maybe the quick link is just slightly bigger to begin with!

0:16 what name bike 🚴 I very like that bike so beautiful 😻😻😻

I’m a beginner at bike maintenance, maybe this is a dumb question, but how do you add links? You mention adding links several times but you don’t show how to do it..

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Ah, sorry, should have clarified. By adding links, we mean adding them to the chain length before cutting the chain. So it's really "including them in the chain length" not "adding them".

What will happen if I just ride the bike as it is as long as it is ridable and only change any parts if there is any issue?

@sydfixesbikes

7 ай бұрын

You can certainly do that, but your cassette and chainring will wear out more quickly than they would if you replaced the chain regularly and since those are more expensive than chains, most people choose to replace the chains more regularly.

@Techminat0r

7 ай бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes I never knew about this untill now. I remember I had a bicycle as a kid and never replaced anything unless it was broken. The issues we had were tyre punctures, maybe replacing chain when it was broken but never the cassette. I mean what if I simply keep on riding and only replace parts when they break or are about to break? Honestly I feel it's a waste of metal to be replacing chain just coz some tool says it's stretched even though the bicycle is ridable.

@sydfixesbikes

6 ай бұрын

Totally up to you. You'll just have to replace the cassette and chainrings sooner that you would if you replaced the chain when it was worn.

@Techminat0r

6 ай бұрын

Much thanks for your advice. @@sydfixesbikes

A full suspension gravel bike... You mean a mountain bike with weird bars?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Well, not really. The suspension is specifically tuned for gravel and you turns out is quite different from a mountain bike!

does it actually matter than the letters on the chain face outwards?

@sydfixesbikes

2 жыл бұрын

Shimano chains are directional, so for those chains, yes.

@Daniel-yg7wh

2 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes ahh I see. What about kmc 10speed?

@sydfixesbikes

2 жыл бұрын

If there is only text on one side, most likely it is directional.

are quicklinks single use once locked in?

@sydfixesbikes

10 ай бұрын

Officially, yes. We've reused them many times without any issues.

@smf1384

10 ай бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes I'm struggling to get my new chain working. the new chain is approx 2cm longer which i didn't believe would make much of a difference but the chains falls off constantly. i'm too chicken to break it with my limited skill/knowledge!

@sydfixesbikes

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, an overly long chain will be more likely to drop due to the extra chain slack.

If you could have more lines that could end in “that’s what she said” then that’d be great.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

😁

Hey what work stand you guys use?

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

It's the Feedback Sports Pro Elite (bit.ly/3mTXStc). We LOVE it!

@davidwiezalis3037

3 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes wait, that sounds like a sponsor plug.! Any benefits over Park Tool stands?

@airwilliam24

3 жыл бұрын

@@davidwiezalis3037 I have the Feedback Sports Elite stand. Can't tell you how it compares to the Park tool, but I bought it because it has a 85lb weight capacity, has a quick release feature, and is really stable. I've been using it for around 2 years now.

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We've never used the Park Tool either, but pretty much every pro team mechanic we know (like all the Shimano mechanics) use the Feedback Sports one...

Pros use like 3 sets of chains and rotate them every 1000 km.

What bike is that. Is it a full suspension rode/ gravel bike?! I have no earthly idea Edit: never mind. I watched that part. But what is the point?

@joeyc8546

3 жыл бұрын

Guessing it is to get a bit more control on bumpier trails than a conventional gravel bike. Gravel bikes otherwise are like a variation on a cyclocross bike so this mod makes them a bit more unique. Also might prevent as much damage to wheels and tyres if the suspension its taking some of the peak load away.

@EverythingMTB1

3 жыл бұрын

@@joeyc8546 ya. Ive never seen such a thing. Basically takes away the point of a gravel bike to o

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

We just talked about it in the most recent video on our other channel: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gKKbpbmqeseYlJs.html It's an awesome bike!

The added touch of a woman always adds something special.

"Tab"

1:45 wrong, a chain doesn’t stretch. The Rollors and pins just wear.

Hahaha...yes Syd...greasy hands suck. I prefer the math geek method. Distance of CL rear axle to CL bottom bracket x 2 (+) number of teeth, big cog / 4 (+) number of teeth, big chainring /4 (+) 1. And there ya have it. Cut your chain and handle it once...no pullin it together and eyeballin extra links, etc.

I don't get how you can measure chain wear with a tape since the chain actually can't stretch. I think this 'trick' isn't right because the links don't get longer as the chain wears out. Neither the distance between the pins doesn't get bigger. What you are checking out with that wear indicator tool, or vernier caliper, is called 'pitch'. You are measuring the distance between the rollers of the chain. "A chain is made out of 4 components: outer plates, inner plates, pins and rollers" - Bike Bible The only components of a bike chain that wear out under normal use are the rollers. The bore on these is getting larger and these rollers become 'wobbly' and that distance (pitch) is getting bigger. The more wobble in the rollers = the more the chain is worn out

@timp2751

3 жыл бұрын

No, a ruler works fine, pins wear as well as rollers and if anything it's the pin wear that is the most significant when it comes to wearing the sprockets and chainrings down. Roller wear doesn't actually matter that much if it's even as the teeth are pulling in the same direction so the pitch doesn't change. As such a ruler is in some respects the most accurate way as it ignores the roller wear and any roller tolerance issues which can vary a fair bit on new chains, particularly for the cheaper lower speeds and a chain wear checking tool will not account for that.

@razvanbenca1345

3 жыл бұрын

I need to test this next month when my new chain arrives.

Love that you don't wear rubber gloves. They're so useless when working on a bike and get in the way. Unless using nasty chemicals of course...

I have no idea what you two are doing in this video. You install the chain on the derailleur, around big big and measure using the stretch on the derailleur cage. Simple.

@skullsroad3642

3 жыл бұрын

That's the way I do it. No counting links. Big to big, install chain through the derailleur, pull until the cage moves a little bit, break the chain, add quick link.

@peterjv8748

3 жыл бұрын

@@skullsroad3642 I like to do small to small, pull until rear derailleur has a little tension, break, add quick link or pin.

If, after replacing your chain, you hear a constant "click, click, click, click, click" sound, chances are you haven't routed the chain through the derailleur properly. I'd rather not go into detail how I know this.......

@sydfixesbikes

3 жыл бұрын

Around the hill, over the fence, down the waterfall 😉

@richardhaselwood9478

3 жыл бұрын

@@sydfixesbikes Well I know this now..... :(

Why aren't you using paraffin wax for your chain?

@sydfixesbikes

11 ай бұрын

Because we get similar good performance from Squirt Lube and it's way easier to apply.

Can’t you just count the number of links on the old chain and cut to match? 🤔

@sydfixesbikes

Жыл бұрын

Yup

Fact: It's a tab, not a pin or a wall

The "measure the chain with a tape measure or ruler" is totally wrong. The chain doesn't really "stretch". The plates are very, VERY consistent in length. What actually comes in contact with our cassette and chainrings are the rollers. The rest of the chain is just carrying the rollers around. The rollers' that are like bushings, wear as the chain is used. Both the outside wears as those come in contact with the sprockets, but even more, the inside diameter gets widened as it comes in contact with the pins, i.e. the chain's rollers have a play in them, so the effective pitch - which is not the distance from pin to pin, rather roller to roller - gets wider, as with incremental wearing the rollers can now push away from each other. Think of it: the chain's rollers and pins are typically made out of very high strength steel. The sprockets, especially in higher-end cassettes, are often aluminum alloy. If the chain was not designed prioritizing wearing itself more than the sprockets, we would be going through alloy cassettes or alloy sprockets far more often than chains. Again, don't flatter yourself thinking you have the strength to stretch a bike chain...not with .66 or .50 low gearing ratio even. Bike chains have 1000s of KGs of tensile strength, and it will NEVER break at the plate, or stretch a plate before braking at a pin connection. It is the grit / sand etc (really hard elements, harder than steel, and ofc aluminum and its alloys) that screws up the rollers after thousands and thousands of rotations, not you stretching the plates. And the weird angles wide range cassettes force the rollers to operate at (different offset planes between rear sprocket and chainring) is adding to that a lot. You can keep your chain on for "ages", and the pin-to-pin measurement - be it two or twenty - will be super consistent (given you had a good chain to begin with), and this way you will go way past its allowable wear without ever knowing. Sure, the pins will move apart as the inner plates wear too, but for 10-12 speed chains, this is WAY to late before it becomes noticeable. Use a chain wear gauge. There is a reason all of those measure the play / pitch between rollers, and not the plates or pins.

@OjStudios

3 жыл бұрын

Have you ever put new and worn chain side by side and trying to match every link? They don't match because the chain gets longer because of the pin and roller wear.

@bengt_axle

3 жыл бұрын

Both the roller and the inner chain plates wear. Even if the outer plates are fixed to the pin, the inner plates wear because they float on the pin in order to allow the chain to articulate and flex laterally. Wear of the holes on the inner plates will contribute to elongation of the chain by increasing the distance between the pins. However, as you explain, it will be different from the wear on the inner surface of the rollers, which won't increase the distance between the pins. It is nonetheless more significant for cassette wear and a good reason to use a measurement tool instead of pin measurement.

@dtolios

3 жыл бұрын

@@bengt_axle true, wear is holistic, but by the time elongation at the pins is noticeable with a ruler, the roller measurement would be past the replacement recommendation, at least for 10-12 speed drivetrains.

Good video but you failed to mention one thing which is what if the new chain is too short like it is on 9 cog bikes or 27 speeds. You need to buy 2 chains and put them together with pins or quick links to make one chain. All chains sold are too short to go around most if not all 27 speed bikes. You get one chain for the price of two since the new chain is about 6 inches too short.

@sydfixesbikes

11 ай бұрын

Wow, we've never run into that. Even back when we had 3x9 drivetrains.