id love to see you break down vulgar latin and how it developed into the various romance languages

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

That is coming! It’s a complicated but exciting topic.

@morphingindisguise

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke as someone who speaks spanish natively and having read books on the evolution of the language, it always is interesting to look at latin words and see how they progressed into their corresponding forms in the romance language. Something interesting is how there was a wave of latinization in the XIX century which ended up "readding" lots of latin words into spanish which was has ironically ended the usage of many latin-derived words.

@ironinquisitor3656

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke I really want to see that. I've been reconstructing the evolution of the Vulgar Latin case system.

@pkREX24

2 жыл бұрын

Honestly I'd like to know more about the pre latin languages of all the places of the empire before they were conquered. I know that theres little scholars know about them since they weren't written down but I at least hope someone could figure out something based on the phonology differences or they'd make predictions based on evolutions from PIE.

@xano2921

2 жыл бұрын

@@morphingindisguise yep, the same for Italian. Actually for what I know Spanish itself tried to make itself more similar to Italian in pronunciation and words, we had a lot of germanic words, but because of Renaissance and then Nationalism, we tried to make the language (that was pretty much and still is artificial) more latin

Hey: you have explained this lucidly, with great scholarship, and years of dedication, ergo you are a Philologist

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

How kind of you! Thanks!

@ulfricstormcloack4066

3 жыл бұрын

@Brantley Edwin Your bot accounts were created in the same day. You both have no profile pics and have a real name and last name. Dont click on them. They are bots using viruses.

There's actually a really robust history of Irish latin as well. It had a huge influence on monastic orders in northern Europe, but died out really quickly when more standard ecclesiastical latin became popular.

@MrGrentch

3 жыл бұрын

As you say Nic, Hiberno Latin had its moment in the sun alright. From what I recall from my Latin(and Irish) teacher in school it had an interesting vocabulary at times, likely because they mostly learned Latin from reading rather than hearing it and their own Irish language was unrelated, so they played about with it and dropped Greek, Irish, even Hebrew words into it. They played around with languages in general because of the bardic tradition and the fact that literacy was new and they were like love struck teens about it. 😁 Irish got a fair number of loan words from Latin too, in particular anything to do with literacy. So in modern Irish you find scríobh for scribere/write and leabhar for liber/book. Though the hard B(if that's the description?) of Latin becomes a soft B or V in Irish. So scriobh (kinda)sounds like screve, leabhar like laower. That B confusion went the other direction, so my home town Dublin was original Dubhlinn*, "Duvlin" phonetically, but early non Irish writers didn't know this distinction so dropped the H and made the B hard. Great channel and really interesting and informative. Even though sadly I'm barely lingual, never mind multilingual.. 😳 *Blackpool in English. Which can confuse an English person from Lancashire if you tell them you also hail from Blackpool. 😁

@ErosAnteros

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrGrentch I always thought that Dublin sounded like An linn dhubh, but I was always taught that it was related to the name of the Eblanii tribe.

At Warsaw University during the 2 semesters of Latin we were taught in the Medieval Polish pronunciation, which feels like half-way between the Classical and Ecclesiastical, but if someone wanted to speak in the Restored Classical version during the classes, they could. I quite like the Polish accent, you can hear it in the short film "Imperator" on KZread, people in the comments seem to like it too ;)

Can you make a video like this but for the ancient Greek pronunciation?

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

I will do so!

This is fascinating. I'm Romanian and I was taught a little bit of Latin in school and we sometimes use famous Latin expressions. Until today I didn't know we use a regional variation, I just thought it was "The" Latin. You said Spain mostly gave up on using their version, I wonder how many other countries still teach their own pronunciation in schools. Also this finally explains to me the mystery of "bona fide", which i originally heard in American movies. I couldn't tell it was Latin until I saw it written down. Before that i just thought it was some English word "bonafied". I was surprised when i found out how "distorted" it was, I guess that's what the English pronunciation of Latin sounds like.

@viperking6573

4 жыл бұрын

In Italy the italian pronunciation, aka the ecclesiastical, is still taught

@ogorangeduck

3 жыл бұрын

It's not really the English pronunciation of Latin, but rather an Anglicization of Latin words (pronouncing as if they were English words). A more "English" pronunciation would be something like /boʊnə.fide/, with the more 'English" o and some vowel reduction

@viperking6573

3 жыл бұрын

@@ogorangeduck Shouldn't it be like /bounė.faidi:/? ė is schwa here

@etepeteseat7424

3 жыл бұрын

@@viperking6573 As an American, if I'm being lax with my vowels while imitating a pronunciation I consider vaguely "Latinate", I say /fideɪ/. I only pronounce the 'i' in fide as "aɪ" if I'm using the conventional Anglicized pronunciation, and I never pronounce the final 'e' as /i:/. It's either /boʊnə faɪ:d/ if I'm using the conventional American English pronunciation, or /bonə fideɪ/ when I'm trying to use more "correct" pronunciation, but not being entirely rigorous, as I said previously.

@viperking6573

3 жыл бұрын

@@etepeteseat7424 oh ok :D

I forgot to mention Finland! How did I forget Finland?! 🤦🏼‍♂️

@ReidarWasenius

3 жыл бұрын

Hälsningar från Finland. Healthings from Finland. Tack så mycket för intressanta videon! Thanks so much for interesting videos!

@LukeRanieri

3 жыл бұрын

Reidar Wasenius tack to you as well!

@Lampchuanungang

Жыл бұрын

Finland is a baltic nation never Scandinavian nation, Estonia is baltic nation and the the country brother of Finland. Study more history to comment hard themes my detective luke ranieri 🥂🥂🥂🥂🥂💛💛💛💛 my deepest boy.

I like all pronunciations (provided they pronounce vowel length correctly), even the weird English one. Back in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period, people from all over Europe would communicate in Latin with so many different pronunciations and they would understand one another alright. Just like native English speakers today understand one another despite having different pronunciations -- from RP to Indian to General American. And, even more crucially, this is also true of non-native speakers: the Romance speakers omitting Hs, the Germans devoicing final consonants (saying 'bet' instead of 'bed'... and even instead of 'bad'), so many people saying 'ze' instead of 'the', many Asian speakers having trouble with l/r, and so on... You might have to adapt slightly and it makes oral comprehension a bit more challenging, but it's not that hard and it brings so much diversity!

Thx for sharing this knowledge...what a great explanation

Really great video, I was really interested in this and wanted to learn more. On the topic of regional pronounciations, I'm from Poland and had some experience with spoken Latin in high school and also in med school (though nowadays they also allow English if you don't want to learn in Latin), and like, Polish pronunciation is basically almost a mix of classical and ecclesiastical ways. It's shocking how close it is. We have almost every phoneme needed, and most of them match the letters. The main differences between classical Latin and Polish are that: -"c" is always /ʦ/, instead of /k/ in classical and /t͡ʃ/ before i and e in modern, and just like in modern when before other vowels -we don't have a "v" in native words, but ppl pronounce it as /v/, same as "w" which we do have, so it's the same as in modern Latin instead of classical /w/ And some subtler nitpickier ones: -we also don't have a "q" anymore in native words but people usually pronounce "qu" as /kf/ instead of /kʷ/, close though -I guess we would pronounce "z" as /z/ and not /dz/ but that's not really a Latin letter anyway -we have mostly /ɔ/ as "o", and /o/ only as a free variant when before /w/ -we have both /e/ and /ɛ/ as allophones, just like Latin, but for many Latin words Polish speakers will use the wrong one intuitively (e.g. in "credo") -we don't have /ʊ/, only /u/ -we have /i/ as "i" after palatal consonants, and /ɨ/ otherwise (usually written as "y" then)/ We don't have a /y/ phoneme. But unlike ecclesiastical: -g is always a hard /g/, t is always a hard /t/ -h is never silent -"ae" and "oe" are pronounced as diphtongs instinctively before people learn it's just e So to make a Pole read classical Latin mostly correctly, you just need to swap all the letters "v" for "ł" and "c" for "k". Maybe swap "qu" for "kł" (it's still gonna be /kw/ instead of /kʷ/, but that's a really pedantic difference at this point). I made a vowel chart for myself while searching for this info btw, got super sucked in lmao. Turns out almost all the vowels are real close, except our /ɛ/ is more central (but our /e/ has positional variants where it matches the Latin /ɛ/).

The Romans were extraordinarily able to accept other countries into their Empire and there must surely have been all sorts of accents and oddities in the Latin that was spoken. It surely would have been just as we see today with immigrants to the UK who speak English in some way there are all sorts of accents, mistakes of grammar and in some cases really quite difficult twists of wording. Do we know how this was accepted (or not) or how these issues helped change Latin overall?

There is also a Central European German Pronunciation, where ce, ci is read tse, tsi (most relevant feature). For instance Cicero is Tsitsero.

@niktonic5379

2 жыл бұрын

I guess we have the same in Czechia.

@igorjee

Жыл бұрын

@@niktonic5379 In traditional Hungarian pronunciation Latin - Hungarian equivalent - phonetical transcription (read as if it were Finnish) coelis - cőlisz - tsöölis caelis - célisz - tseelis ecce - ekce - ektse geminatio - gemináció - geminaatsioo scientia - szciencia - stsientsia vici - vici - vitsi Scylla - Szkülla - Skülla Charybdis - Karübdisz - Karübdis catholicus - katolikusz - katolikus philosophia - filozófia - filozoofia ischium - iszkium - iskium (these days isium - read as a German sch is more common, German influence I guess) pisces - piszcesz - pistses

This is a fantastic video. Thanks very much.

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching! 😃

Traditional English pronunciation. (I kid, I kid.) Though reconstructing what Chaucer and contemporaries might have pronounced their Latin like, by taking traditional English pronunciation and reversing the English sound changes on it, does sound quite interesting. John 1:1 [in prinˈsɪpjɔ ˈɛːrat ˈvɛrbum ɛt ˈvɛrbum ˈɛːrat ˈaːpud ˈdɛːum ɛt ˈdɛːus ˈɛːrat ˈvɛrbum.], beginning of Bellum Gallicum [ˈgalja ɛst ˈɔmnis diˈviːza ɪn ˈpartɛːz ˈtrɛs]; "Te saluto, Luci!" [tɛː saˈliu̯tɔ liu̯siː]. Certainly not a good pronunciation of Latin by any means (the complete ignorance of Classical vowel length which is also present in its descendent the English pronunciation) but an interesting one. I usually try for a good Classical pronunciation, similar to your own.

At first, I saw your video about the macra and I was sceptical about long vowels in the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation. Watching this video and learning that the Italianate is artificial, I'd be more willing to distinguish long and short vowels when using this pronunciation, but I'm still sceptical about their pronunciation in Renaissance poetry. I tend to believe that it was merely encephalicaly, mathematically constructed at that time and that poets didn't distinguish vowel length. I'm open to conversation as I have no proofs. All in all, great video!

I would love you to do a video like this for Ancient Greek, namely one in which you compare the pronunciation of a text in both reconstructed and modern variants.

There is also a traditional Catalan pronunciation of Latin different from the Spanish, Italian, French and Portuguese. It is listed for example in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_regional_pronunciation

Salve Luci! Maybe Daniel or Johan could provide better answers on the recent history of Latin pronunciation in Sweden, but I might shed some light on the Middle Ages. Runic inscriptions in Latin from ca 1100-1400 often give an indication as to how Latin was actually pronounced, since the carvers were adapting what they had heard and memorized, rather than following scribal orthography. As can be expected, /ae/ and /oe/ is represented by an rune, /c/ before a front vowel is spelled with , but with in other cases. Likewise the /ti/, as in "temptatio", is represented by or . One odd trait is that final /t/ after an unaccented vowel is mostly written as , representing a voiced dental fricative sound [ð], like in "these". "Vocat" would therefore be spelled something like "vokaþ". This is confirmed in a 12th century Icelandic work, called the First Grammatical Treatise, where it is mentioned that the ligature & would be written in Old Norse. You might also find it interesting that the same anonymous grammarian writes that the Irish of his time always pronounced the Latin hard, even before a front vowel. Nowadays in Stockholm we are taught the restored pronunciation, but I have no strong feelings one way or the other. On the one hand, Ecclesiastical pronunciation comes from a living tradition, but on the other hand, the restored pronunciation is closer to how language was actually spoken when it was still someone's native tongue. Changing your pronunciation depending on whether you're reading classical or medieval Latin does have its charm, but then again, one shouldn't forget that there was a lot of variation during the Middle Ages!

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much for your response, Victor! I'm very grateful you took the time to enlighten us on this subject. Wow! þ ! That's absolutely amazing. Is that the verbal ending in Norse of that period? Could it be they heard Germans pronouncing a highly aspirated 't' and used þ to represent it? I am fascinated to know what was going on! :D

@victorfrans1374

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you for the great video! The use of for final is prevalent both in Norway, which had more missionaries coming from England, and in Denmark and Sweden, where most missionaries were German. It seems to be unique to the region, but it's possible that it reflects a common medieval pronunciation. Jellinek (1920, "Zur Aussprache des Lateinischen im Mittelalter") claims that final was generally pronunced as [d] in medieval Latin - perhaps not surprising since it's not far off from an unaspirated /t/. This sound could have been perceived as being closer to /ð/ in Old Norse, rather than /d/ or /t/. I've yet to see any explanation as to why! There's no similarity to the verb endings, but it does have a parallell in the development of final /t/ to /ð/ in some Icelandic noun and prononun endings (such as 'that', þat > það). This, however, is quite late and probably unrelated, since the change does not take place in Swedish, Danish or Norwegian (þat > þet > det). Hoping to solve this mystery sometime in the future!

@JohanWinge

5 жыл бұрын

Well, as far as I know, much of what you describe from the medieval sources were valid also in the traditional Swedish pronunciation in modern times (until ca. 1900 when the restored classical pronunciation gained traction in the schools), except of course for the strange thing with final , which, unsurprisingly, is a normal /t/. I think before vowels is mostly /ts/ rather than /s/. Before front vowels, is always /s/ (absolutely not /ts/ or /tʃ/!), and the combination is /ks/. I am confused with in this context; I would have expected /j/, but /g/ is perhaps more common. In general, this mode of pronunciation is fully according to normal Swedish phonology, which includes the characteristic "grave accent", and of course Swedish vowel qualities (notably in long /a:, o:, u:/ = [ɑ:, uː, ʉ̟]), as well as the fact that stressed syllables are always long (with long consonant if the syllable is long by position, and with long vowel otherwise), and unstressed syllables have short vowels. So "annus" is [an:ɵs] and "ănus" and "ānus" are homophonous = [ɑ:nɵs]. The traditional pronunciation can still occasionally be heard in e.g. academic ceremonies: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gKpqp81pg8m0l8Y.html (she does a very good, authentic pronunciation, though her long /a:/ and /u:/ is too Italian!). Listen also to kzread.info/dash/bejne/h6mWu5ubgcy6cbg.html. By the way, what goes as restored classical pronunciation in Swedish schools is classical mainly in respect to , , , and ; so is usually /v/, and everything about vowel qualities and lengths is still as in the traditional pronunciation, as described above.

@victorfrans1374

5 жыл бұрын

Found a possible explanation to for final in the main edition of The First Grammatical Treatise: ”The basis of the pronunciation of Latin 't' as þ must be sought in the phonological development of the Romance languages; thus, in Old French, word-final t early became a spirant, and was ultimately lost” (Hreinn Benediktsson (ed.). 1972. The First Grammatical Treatise. London: Longman. P. 98). Indeed, there were connections between Scandinavia and France at the time, both with churchmen studying there abroad and french monks founding monasteries here, so it’s possible that the French pronunciation of Latin had some influence during the Middle Ages.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

@@victorfrans1374 How fascinating!

my latin teacher in Brazil, taught me latin with the traditional portuguese pronunciation in 2003. I was confused the first time I heard about the reconstructed one.

@viictor1309

3 жыл бұрын

Woah, what does it sounds like???

@chicoti3

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly I prefer the local pronunciations, you don't see anyone imitating a shakespearean accent when reading shakespeare or someone imitating an irish accent when reading an English text written by an Irishman. I'm Brazilian as well and I'd like to speak Latin with the portuguese pronunciation but we don't have enough people speaking with that pronunciation for it to be a standard nowadays, unfortunately. So I'm using ecclesiastical since it's the next best thing. The so called "classical" pronunciation sounds too artificial to my ears.

@85ventura

3 жыл бұрын

I would like to say autumn in italian is autumno and un Spanish otoño. Moreover, when an English speaker says Laura you can hear "lora" o sth similar

@minhacontaize

3 жыл бұрын

@@viictor1309 Pretty much like ecclesiastical, with some differences: ce / ci = se / si. Sc = s. Ti- = si. Ge / gi / = zhe / zhi. J = zh. Z = z

@kabalder

2 жыл бұрын

@@chicoti3 "you don't see anyone imitating a shakespearean accent when reading shakespeare or someone imitating an irish accent when reading an English text written by an Irishman. " You do. And some of the jokes and the rhymes really only work with an older pronunciation system..

In German Ecclesiastical Latin, c before e, i, ae is pronounced as ts (from Old French?) and oe is pronounced as ö.

Amazing video, ill probably never learn latin but the history of the language is fascinating

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Muchísimas gracias!

In the XXth century in Belgium the prononciation taught on school , was the ecclesiastical until the years 70ties without stressing the lengths of vowels [for me] and after 1980 only the restored one.[ for my children and grandchildren] The metrics and scansion were only taught before WWII.[ for my grandfather in the late XIXth century and father]… the deep knowledge of Latin diminished regularly between the XIX and the XXI th centuries ( so did also the correlated knowledge of French alas !)

First off: congratulations on your channel and on your work in general. Allow me a question: are you by any chance familiar with Roger Wright's 1982 publication "Late Latin and Early Romance in Spain and Carolingian France"? If not, I highly recommend getting your hands on it. In it, he puts forth the theory that the various forms of medieval Latin actually go back to a first restoration attempt by Alcuin during the Carolingian Renaissance. He points out that the disglossia had been a continual issue since long before the Classical period and that the Romance world actually still considered itself to be Latin-speaking. Alcuin, as a non-native speaker who had learnt Latin in the isolated tradition of the Irish monks, was apparently appalled by the Latin pronunciation in Romance areas of the continent and undertook to "reform" it accordingly. Interestingly enough, both "c" and "g" are still classical in his system, but did not stand the test of time in Romance lands, whereas the rest of his system apparently did. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the book, should you get around to reading it.

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Fascinating! I have bought the book and will be reading it. Thanks!!

Interesting, although your Greek pronunciation is perhaps very absorbing(Guessing that you're looking at Classical more broadly than Koine / Erasmian)- you've pronounced the Eta's a bit like Epsilon's (and σκηνή accentuates the second Eta). Skay-NAY is closer to what I would be used to, but not wrong by any means. And the way that you wrote your σ was intriguing. It seems as though the permutations in pronunciation and writing are endless. Coming from a Koine Greek and Hebrew background, I'm finding Latin fascinating - especially how it was impacted by the aforementioned. Restored Classical Latin pronunciation is perhaps my leaning at this early stage. Thank you for your insights - I've subscribed!

I know that you are fluent in Italian, but I will write in English for the sake of other users ;) I think that your "Italian Ecclesiastical pronunciation" is still too... correct :D I mean, we really don't pay attention to the lenght of vowels, and we tend to make them all sound the closest to the standard italian pronunciation :) this is, at least, what I've experienced at the high school or hearing priests and musicians reading something in latin. What about the Italian professors you have met? what's their position? (BTW I love your channel, Latin language has been fluctuating in my house for a few days recentely)

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Grazie, Giacomo! Latin, in order to be Latin, still regards phonemic vowel length, which determines stress placement and semantic meaning of words. If an Italian using Ecclesiastical Pronunciation doesn't observe them, then that is a characteristic of that Italian's native accent - if a Spaniard uses Classical Pronunciation without observing phonemic vowel length, that again is just part of his native accent. Latin, to be Latin, has phonemic vowel length. They are not separable.

@brendanlinnane5610

3 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't say that the pronunciation was too "correct". It does not reflect actual liturgical use. Catholic ecclesiastical pronunciation is essentially treating the text as Italian, using Italian vowels, and Italian-style stress, but unlike Italian, ignoring double consonnants. Traditional Catholic prayer books in Latin indicate a stressed vowel, and the stress is like Italian. There is no indication of vowel length, which is ignored. Introíbo al altáre Dei. elevátio mánum meárum sacrifícium vespertínum

@GiacomoBiagi

3 жыл бұрын

@@brendanlinnane5610 I think we are saying the same thing: his pronunciation of "Italian" ecclesiastical Latin still sounds to me too... restituta. Whenever you listen to latin speech read in Italy it always sounds just like italian (well, actually any language spoken by an avarage Italian guy sounds... Italian :D )

I first studied Latin in Catholic school, where we learned the ecclesiastical pronunciation (no surprise there!). I still use it, for a number of reasons: First, I don't speak Latin, I read it, so no one has to hear my pronunciation but me. Second, I feel no need to emulate Cicero's pronunciation. Third, it just sounds better to my ear - the classical pronunciation sounds guttural, with its hard "c" and "ti+vowel" sounds.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Sure, use whatever you like most.

@Giovis968

2 жыл бұрын

Me too , ecclesiastical is better , the sound is similar to italian ,yes is cute . Classic is for the army.

In France, my Latin lessons at school used roughly the restored classical pronunciation… without any vowel length distinction, except for the -ā, and no pitch accent either, and the French r, which is totally artifical and absurd. As for the method itself, it was only declensions, translations and boring stuff, no real speaking, never. That's why we French people are bad in learning languages. Many are those who know Hans Ørberg's method, but there is another "natural" method, published by Assimil and created by Clément Desessard. It also teaches restored pronunciation and the importance of pitch and vowel length, and the pitch is even highlighted in bold, but the quantity is only mentioned where it's absolutely necessary (again with -ā and some sparse words when the context can't distinguish paronyms). It's a pity because the method itself is great, with neologisms and everyday vocabulary and humour but it fails miserably with pronunciation. The method dates back from the 1960s and was re-edited a few years ago with colours and so on, but no improvement on vowels, it's a real shame. I contacted Assimil a few years ago about this problem, but they didn't seem to be worried about it, their argument being that the main goal is to allow people to read classicals. How can one publish a language method unable to teach someone how to properly speak it ? It's beyond me.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

I know it well! But Latin doesn't have pitch accent. If the audio is doing that, it's misleading people.

@Columbator

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Oops my mistake, I meant stress accent. Sorry about the confusion. Mihi ignosce!

If I remember well, you said that most of the time Latin speakers observed vowel length. Is that true about middle ages? I'd say in modern times it seems a kind of 'novum', so it probably wasn't something people used when speaking Latin and even nowadays most don't do or don't do correctly. I always thought that the vowel length in speaking disappeared with the Roman Empire and was rather a scholar interest than an actual utterance. I think a good point is also made by Tadeusz Gacia ("W kwestii restytucji klasycznej wymowy łacińskiej", Acta Universitatis Lodziensis. Folia Linguistica 45 (2010): 55-64) that medieval texts, e.g. "Stabat Mater" should be pronounced and read in restored Latin as they would lose rhyme, the very heart of medieval poetry. As an example, the author gives the following verses of 'Dies Irae': Preces meae non sunt dignae: / Sed tu bonus fac benigne, / Ne perenni cremer igne. These would loose their beaty if pronunced with classical pronunciation. I would compare it to using English Original Pronunciation of Shakespeare to read Chaucer and, let's say, Samuel Beckett. As you know, I personally chose the 'Latin RP' as my way of speaking, but as the language developed and was used in many different pronunciations which then were the foundation stones for many beautiful literary works, we must not forget them completely and still be able to use them when the need comes.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

Indeed, the best authors *did* understand and respect vowel length in the Middle Ages, preserving that tradition down to the present, unbroken. I am currently making a video about that subject. Vowel length, even hidden quantity, is strictly observed by educated Romans through the late Empire. Not all Mediaeval poetry takes care to observe vowel length, of course, and those poems should be read as intended by the author, as you suggest. But many others use proper Roman meters. In short, I believe it is much easier to go from a competent understanding of syllable quantity in Latin, as you have, my friend, to switching to a stress based pronunciation, than the other way around.

@hectortorres8188

3 жыл бұрын

Carmina burana, also sounds great in eclessiastical.

Thank you so much!

In Romanian, au stays au. Sometimes, it becomes "a" in some regions of Romania ("agust" for Standard Romanian "august", and if the next syllable is an open syllable, it has an allophone in a hiatus (a-u-ru -> a-ur). In Aromanian, it becomes "av" or "af", just like Greek αυ became "av" or "af" in Koine (Aromanian avdziri vs Romanian auzi(re)). Also, Romanian, unlike Western Romance, merged short u and lung u (cruce, vârtute) and also short o and long o (moale (metaphony created by the e in the final syllable, but plural moi), frumos).

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! Romanian doesn’t change the quality of back vowels. It’s a beautiful and fascinating language. Îmi place atât de mult! 🇷🇴 ♥️

I think I have a possible answer/explanation about the convertion (or lack there of) of ae and oe to e and au to o when it comes to the Ecclesiastical Italian pronounciation. I understand it may seem arbitrary but a very simple fact is that there are almost no words in modern Italian that include ae or oe (I can only think of a handful like aereo) and I think that's why those sounds were intuitively replaced with the much more common e. On the other hand au is present in many many more italian words today so it didn't "feel" obsolete or wrong and was therefore pronounced as written (in spite of the switch to o of other branches/evolutions of latin). I think this is the simple reason for that "illogical" choice, just simply what felt natural to a native italian speaker.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Right. I explain in more depth in this video what happened: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ipmltteJitmfkdY.html It's fascinating!

In many discussions of pronunciation, it seems like Classical Latin is pitted against Ecclesiastical Latin, but I can’t find any details about medieval pronunciation. Is that because it was so varied? It seems like the medieval plus renaissance periods were the longest. So how would, say, St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Bonaventure have spoken Latin? What differentiates classical from medieval and, in turn, medieval from ecclesiastical pronunciation?

Thank you for the video. You said that the English C17th pronunciation (as used by Newton) was very different. Am I right to assume that this difference is only in the spoken Latin and not in the written Latin? Also could you point me at any guide to the differences. Many thanks. PS I'll be at Newton's house tomorrow which is where my interest lies.

Hello Luke. I've seen a few of your videos and they're very informative. Firstly, thank you for your good work. I've noticed a few times you've mentioned the Sardinian dialect as proof of the characteristics of the restored pronunciation of Latin. I've heard some samples of the Sardinian language and I've noticed that whenever a word ends with a consonant, they seem to end it with a schwa. E.g. "Ita te naras?" (what is your name) sounds like "ita te naraze." Is it possible that this was a part of the Latin language all the way back to classical times as well or more likely a later innovation that developed in Sardinian itself? I've heard samples of a dialect from Maratea in Southern Italy where they also preserve the final consonants in the verbs (e.g. cantas, cantat, cantamus, cantatis) and they also seem to pronounce these consonants with a schwa. Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks to you as well for the compliment! 😃 Good question! I've wondered the same, but it seems the schwa thing is something inherited from Italian influence, or could have developed independently. Sardinian also adds a vowel sound to initial s+consonant, like Spanish. It could just be a natural development of Sardinian. But I don't it's a Classical Latin phenomenon, because it would ruin the meter of Latin poetry by adding syllables.

@francorubuano2820

2 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke But there's no schwa in Italian. Therefore the reason must be found elsewhere.

I remember in one of your videos you mentioned a website where people meet online for Latin conversations? Do you happen to remember the website?

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

yup! latinandgreekchats.weebly.com

Please if you can answer my question. If I am correct the letter V in classical latin was pronounced as U, but did the romans had any letter that would’ve been pronounced as we pronounce V today...by the way hats off for what you are doing it’s fascinating. Cheers

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Salvē! Thanks for the question. The Romans did not have a letter for the sound /v/ (this is the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) symbol), what we write as 'v' in English. Nor did they have one for the sound /w/. The pronunciation changes in nearly all dialects of Latin to become /β/ or /b/ or /v/ in modern Romance languages, and there are strong indications that this sound was present in at least some speakers in the 1cAD, and increasingly To my knowledge, the only dialect to preserve the /w/ is the dialect of Montella in Italy: soundcomparisons.com/?fbclid=IwAR2vMZsVi1IAl6H6lNjQKfk3pDa078mjKPDmZA7WjSTr8gWPSnepefiB0C0#/en/Romance/language/Rce_It_Sth_Cpn_Irp_Montella_Dl

Caro Scorpio, sono un gran ammiratore e fautore della lingua latina, specialmente quella degli antichi padri della Chiesa, e della Chiesa di Roma, come si esprime nella sua Liturgia. Sono cresciuto a Roma, lí ho imparato il latino. Mi sono laureato in filosofia e teologia alla Pontificia Universitá Lateranense. Diedi gli esami del primo anno di filosofia ancora in latino. Parlavo con i professori, e con un paio di studenti, in latino, usando, naturalmente, la pronuncia ecclesiastica, l’unica a noi conosciuta. E fino ad oggidí rimango attaccato al rito romano antico, celebrato in latino. Nonostante il fatto che fossi cresciuto a Roma, sono in fatti d’origine tedesca da parte paterna, inglese da parte materna, addottato da una famiglia lituana, ed attualmente residente d'Olanda. Ho pure vissuto in Lituania ed in Germania. Conosco bene dunque tutte ste lingue e le posso paragonare. Per quanto riguardo il lituano, vorrei dire che questa lingua - la piú arcaica di tutte le lingue indogermaniche viventi, distingue anch’essa, come le lingue germaniche, tra le vocali qualitativamente brevi e lunghe. In lituano la desinenza ‘’n’’ dell’accusativo singolare maschile e femminile - e nella preposizione e prefisso ‘’in’’ - diventó gia diversi secoli fa nasale, ed eventualmente le sillabe an, en, in, un diventarono uguali alle semplici vocali lunghe rispettive. Nella lingua letteraria contemporanea vengono tuttora scritte come nasali, con una cedilla. In certi dialetti la ‘’n’’ é rimasta! Un simile processo ha avuto luogo nella lingua latina. La pronuncia ecclesiastica, resa unica ufficiale della Chiesa Cattolica all’inizio del secolo XXesimo, ha una storia lunghissima dietro di sé. Assai piú di ‘’tre cento anni’’ come sostiene Lei. Non ho mai sentito alcun sacerdote, alcun coro cattolico, usare la pronuncia ‘’classica restaurata’’ nel cantare la Messa e l’Ufficio Divino, in nessun paese europeo dove abbia assistito alla celebrazione liturgica. La pronuncia ecclesiastica romana risale ai tempi di San Girolamo, di Sant’Anselmo, di Sant’Agostino. La parola per ‘’cielo’’ , per esempio, giá allora veniva scritta ‘’caeli’’, ‘’coeli’’, ‘’celi’’, perché l’antico dittongo non si distingueva piú dalla vocale ‘’e’’ lunga. Sarebbe ridicolo ed anacronistico voler pronunciare i testi dei Padri della Chiesa, dei scrittori medioevali, del Magistero della Chiesa di qualsiasi epoca, e della Liturgia del rito romano con la cosidetta pronuncia classica restaurata. La pronuncia ecclesiastica, la quale ha compagnato la Chiesa Romana durante tutto il Medioevo fino ad oggidí, deriva dal latino tardivo della cittá di Roma. Non solo la pronuncia, ma pure la grammatica ed il vocabolario si distinguono dalla lingua classica. La pronuncia ecclesiastica fu usata in Italia durante tutto il Mediovale anche dagli uomini di lettere non ecclesiastici. Tutti gli europei cattolici che sapevano scrivere, scrivevano fra di loro in latino: la pronuncia nazionale non c’entrava, perche si incontravano mai, o assai di rado. La norma di pronuncia, come di tutte le cose, comunque, era sempre quella di Roma, sede del Papa. Per cui, il Papa fece bene ad esigere, all’inizio del secolo XX, che in Chiesa tutti facessero uso della pronuncia ecclesiastica romana, per ché ormai si viaggiava di piú, piú student, pellegrini, sacerdoti, vescovi venivano sempre piú spesso da tutte le parte dell’Europa a Roma, per visitare, per soggionarci, per studiare, per occupare uffizi ecclesiastici. Unitá di pronuncia nel canto, nei testi sacri del rito romano, e nella formazione di seminaristi di tutt’Europa in un’epoca in cui ancor si insegnava IN LATINO, pareva una cosa logica e desiderabile. Io rimango fedele alla pronuncia ecclesiastica romana della lingua latina, come fedele sono al rito romano tradizionale. Nonostante la tragica decisione, presa ed eseguita in seguito al Concilio Vaticano II, di riformare drasticamente il rito romano, quasi ovunque abolendo il latino in favore delle lingue nazionali, nell’ultimo decennio sta diffondendosi sempre di piú il rito tradizionale romano, specie trai giovani. Questo mi rende assai felice. Questo vuol dire pure, che si sta diffondendo di nuovo la pronuncia latina tradizionale, quella ecclesiastica. Spero, che Lei ne tenga conto nelle Sue presentazioni future. Grazie. PS. Capisco abbastanza bene i vari accenti nazionali del latino ecclesiastico, peró non capisco affatto la pronuncia ''classica'' ''restaurata''. Chi, abituato alla pronuncia ecclesiastica, sa cosa significa ''Wiki kiwitatem''? Nessuno, Le lo giuro!

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Ciao! Grazie per il commento. 😊 Puoi usare il sistema che ti piace; a me piacciono tutt'e due! Mi spiego in più detaglio qui: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ipmltteJitmfkdY.html Scrivimi un commento sotto quel video dopo averlo visto. Ma la grammatica e vocabolario del latino è uguale sia nella chiesa che fuori da noi appassionati che parliamo il latino fra di noi. Le parole nuove e necessarie aggiunte nei secolo dopo-Romani sono parole nostre nel latino d'oggi. Leggi il libro Institutiones Stili Latin da Emiglio Springhetti, sacerdote e latinista della Chiesa circa 1950. Conosco almeno cinque sacerdoti che preferiscisono la pronuncia classica. Sono pochi, ma esistono. "Chi, abituato alla pronuncia ecclesiastica, sa cosa significa ''Wiki kiwitatem''? Nessuno, Le lo giuro!" Senti, parlo in latino con persone in tutto il mondo ogni giorno - italiani, americani, tedeschi, spagnoli, polacchi - e si capisce perfettamente fra di noi sia la pronuncia classica che la pronuncia ecclesiastica. Ci vuole un'ora solo ad abituarsi. Guarda il mio video sopra; poi parliamo.

@zmaja

3 жыл бұрын

Io sono abituata alla pronuncia tradizionale (non è la pronuncia ecclesiastica da dove sono io, Montenegro e Croazia, ma abbastanza simile, ecclesiastica e più "italiana", ma anche questa non è strana a me), e capisco perfettamente la pronuncia classica, nessun problema davvero. Mentre studiavo, ho preso un corso di latino (Università di Zagabria), un semestre abbiamo usato la pronuncia tradizionale (un po' differente da ecclesiastica) e l'altro pronuncia classica. Scusate il mio Italiano, non l'ho studiato formalmente, spero che si capisca. Io ho solo una base nella lingua Latina, non sono esperta, ma non trovo nessun problema ascoltando pronuncie varie. Ho cominciato usare i metodi raccomandati da Luke per imparare Latino così di poter usarlo attivamente, ed è più... facile usare la pronuncia classica, forse più interessante perché è più rara qui. Ma tutti i modi sono OK.

@zmaja

3 жыл бұрын

The point being... I, an almost complete begginer, understood "Wiki kiwitatem" ;)

@Lampchuanungang

Жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke luke going deep to restore classical, old, scientific latin, i ve seen many of your video. You are very true latinist when ya use classical and scientifc fonetics of latin. Fact bro, When ya use clerical, the latin souuuunnnddddssss fake like neapolitan, italian no good, faaakeeee. I like im your fan, i like the deepness of your videos. You have your limits , you have passion by you do teach and learn about latin, thanks for upur work to all word. I like you. 🥂🥂🥂🥂🍾🍾🍾🎉🎉🎉🎉

So, you think if you someone uses the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, he should still respect vowel length as in restored pronunciation? I'm only asking because I assumed one had to "buy the whole package", and that long vowels in Ecclesiastical were only those in stressed syllables (unless in a closed syllable, in which case all vowels in the word are short). I once read that the palatalization of C and G before front vowels had started in Late Latin; on another occasion I read that Tertullian apparently had difficulty distinguishing vowel length. I jumped to conclusions and thought, based on that, that Late Latin already sounded basically like the Ecclesiastical pronunciation. After that, I decided it was silly to use restored to read Late and Medieval (and Renaissance and so on) Latin, and to always use the Ecclesiastical pronunciation to read Late Latin and beyond. I was happy with that for a while, but then I read a quotation from Augustine saying that speakers from Africa couldn't discern vowel length; which clearly implies that (Late) Latin speakers from Augustine's time, at least those in Italy, still respected vowel length. Ever since then, I don't really know how I should read literature produced since the Late Latin period.

Dear ScorpioMartianus, Do we know today how the Ecclesiastical Latin was pronounced during the Carolingian Renaissance? This knowledge would be of great importance for the research we are trying to conduct at the University of Fribourg on the restoration of Gregorian chant in its original form; but unfortunately, musicologists are not experts in the history of language or phonology. Is there any source or manual that could help us?

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Absolutely! See my more recent video on “The Immortal Language”

I have written several blessings and healing songs. In my composition I used a more common pronunciation. Would songs and such formal blessings be more appropriate in ecceciastical proninciation? For me the verses I had written needed to be in a common form. Ideas, questions, and comments?

In traditional Hungarian pronunciation Latin - Hungarian equivalent - phonetical transcription (read as if it were Finnish) coelis - cőlisz - tsöölis caelis - célisz - tseelis ecce - ekce - ektse geminatio - gemináció - geminaatsioo scientia - szciencia - stsientsia vici - vici - vitsi Scylla - Szkülla - Skülla Charybdis - Karübdisz - Karübdis catholicus - katolikusz - katolikus philosophia - filozófia - filozoofia ischium - iszkium - iskium (these days isium - read as a German sch is more common, German influence I guess) pisces - piszcesz - pistses

Propia soni forma variatur in una familia. Uniformitas per scholam principium non prevalens in usu.

It was not so long ago (today to be exact) when I had been watching a stream from strategy game Crusader Kings 3 and I asked my bf "does Latin distinguish 'l' and 'll' in speech?" (we are Poles and we do) So here is the answer😀 [The stream was in English and their British pronunciation of 'casus belli' made me 👀😬]

I've just discovered this fragment by Papirius, I admit I didn't know it and now I'm pretty puzzled by this text: «IUSTITIA cum scribitur, tertia syllaba sic sonat, quasi constet ex tribus litteris T, Z et I.» (Papirio, ap. Leil, Gramm. Lat., VII, 216[28]) Which means, in my opinion, that the Latin word IUSTIZIA was pronunced as IUSTIZIA as in modern Italian. Is it possible?

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

This is absolutely right, but for Late Latin after this change became standard in the 4cAD. Classical Latin was hundreds of years prior. It’s a good quote though.

@elisabettamacghille4623

2 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks for the answer. If I may abuse of your patience and of your kindess, may I ask if this Papirius author of the frgament I quoted, is actually Gaius Papirius, Pontifex Maximus in 509 Before Christ, belonging to the famous Gens Papiria? I ask because I find interesting that the quoted pronouciation of '-TIA' as '-ZIA' was already present during the age of the First Res Publica Romana and not only in the Late Roman age! This is actually what troubles my nights!

I'll be gentle to you. Fantastic video! I've learnt so many new things. Extremely artificial is definitely not something I would ever think about your Latin.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks very kindly, Brendie! :)

Would the trap-bath split not be considered an example of phonemic vowel length in southern British English?

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Yes! But it doesn't occur in non stressed syllables like Latin.

35:42 I'm happy that you mentioned India as one of the native English speaking countries but currently India is not a native English speaking country.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Hi! You don't think there's a large population of first-language English speakers in India? I would have guessed at least a few hundred thousand, no? The 2011 census says there are more than 200,000: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers_in_India#List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

@Aditya-te7oo

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Ohh, I didn't know it. 😄😄 BTW, how to pronounce ae, oe, au and so on diphthongs in Latin ?

What about nasal vowels? Some claim that in classical latin final -m was not pronounced and indicated that the previous vowel was long and nasalized.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

It's not a claim, it's a fact: kzread.info/dash/bejne/h3qbu7eGkbLQnaQ.html

@frenchimp

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks a lot. In fact after asking the question, I found that very video of yours which explains it perfectly. I like the analogy with the japanese nasalization phoneme. By the way, I was wondering... since the resulting nasalized vowel is long, might it not be possible that it's a dipthong, the first more retaining the oral quality, and the last more being nasalised? In that case, you could consider that m is pure nasality, it assimilates to a following consonant in terms of place of articulation, if not followed by a consonant it becomes vocalic and assimilates with the previous vowel in terms of timber?

Yes. There's a Priest in Sydney who is originally from England. His latin is very 'british' and perhaps to some people seems somewhat lazy. 'Domee-newws vobis-kewwm', 'Day-oh gratz-ee-yass'.

@Eyes_On_America

3 жыл бұрын

It must be so painful to listen to 😅

@marcokite

2 жыл бұрын

@Multorum Unum - yes, he's referring of course to the Mass

Have you ever looked into the Latin used during the medieval period in Ireland? I remember reading in Ernst Robert Curtius’ book Europäische Literatur und Lateinisches Mittelalter, that he mentions how frustratingly unique the monks’ Latin was for other Europeans when they gained access to the texts composed in Ireland.

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Fascinating! I don't know anything about that period. Tell us more.

@pkornmeyer

4 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke I also read about this phenomenon recently. Essentially, as the Romans were never able to conquer Ireland and thereby import their legal structures, administrative methods, or language, when the Celts encountered Latin culture, it was entirely through the mediation of the Romano-British ecclesiastics, including St. Patrick, who were trained in the old system. (Also, to a large degree, Anglo-Latin culture was similar, though to a lesser extent, due to the Anglo-Saxon conquest of Britain.) Hence, the Hiberno-Britons did not have an organic/native Latin culture, but rather it was received almost entirely through their relations with the continent (I hesitate to say "artificially" due to the negative connotations of the word). As a result, whereas the inhabitants of Roman provinces speaking late/vulgar Latin would have an intuitive inclination toward more common words when expressing themselves in literary Latin. Even in English: if we want to say "creator," we can simply use the Latin "creator," and would be inclined to do so, due to the similarity of the words. "Plasmator," however, would not be as intuitive to a vulgar Latin speaker. The Hiberno-Britons, however, had no such inclination, and were known for poring through ancient grammars and obscure glossaries in order to mine for more "creative" (no pun intended) modes of expression than were conventional on the continent. I am having a hard time thinking of specific examples, but that is the general trend. Regarding pronunciation, as the Hiberno-Britons learned a more educated form of Latin and were subsequently isolated from the vulgar developments into the Romance languages, they maintained some features of the older pronunciation, including the hard C. Hence when Alcuin of York went to Charlemagne's court and used the hard C instead of the "ts" sound, people thought he was using an exceptionally barbaric pronunciation. Sorry for the soapbox moment--I just find this really interesting.

@dominicoceallaigh7374

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke If you google Hiberno-Latin or Hisperic Latin you will find more about it. I think that Ireland must also have a way of pronouncing Latin that is distinct from that used in the UK as I recall someone in the UK 'correcting' my pronunciation of a Latin word once (For 'ae' I may have said 'ay' to rhyme with hay and they said 'Aye' to rhyme with high - or v.v. ! ) As it is many decades since I did Latin at secondary level I am no longer certain of what would have been my teachers' pronunciation and what would have been just me getting it wrong! As most Irish schools were Catholic it was presumably close to the traditional Italian pronunciation. Latin (and Greek) were taught in hedge-schools so there would have been a continuous tradition of pronunciation quite distinct from that taught to the sons of the landlord class in Trinity (Dublin) etc.

AU = UO/O (it) = O (alb) = AF (gr) Nautica… Nuotare (it. to swim)… Notar (alb. Swimmer)… Nauplion (gr. read as Nafplion) Laudare… Lodere (it. Praise)… Lëvdón (alb. u became v, au became ë… as in thË) All these are not mistakes… they’re dialects, adaptations, or the original root word which Romans had borrowed from. Rotacisms as such are quite alive in standard Albanian today… from one region to another. Greeks say Spiti… Southen Albanians say Shtëpi… area of Durrachium says Shpi… northern most Albanians say Shpaj (as in the English i). Again… not mistakes. They’re dialects. Latin came from somewhere too… and it’s the distorted version of a cocktail of influences.

It seems odd to prefer “Italian” over “Ecclesiastical” since the latter seems more accurate insofar as the Church was essential in the continued use of Latin. Both Church and Classical Latin sound very similar to Italian and using the term is easily confused with the nation rather than the more accurate association with the ecclesia.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Hm, the Church as a separate entity really wasn't more influential than the academic usage of fluent Latin speakers through the Middle Ages and Renaissance. If you lump them together with the Church as Europeans Christians, then sure.

@graterdeddly9527

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke I suppose it depends on what time period you mean -- academic usage was, and is, essential, but it grew out of Church usage, very likely because academies (universities) themselves grew out of monastic schools of the Church.The monasteries and cathedrals as centers for learning and Latin preservation began the unbroken line of usage to the modern day.

Fantastic! Thank you, Scorpio Martianus.

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Thanks for subscribing to my other channel! 😊

This presentation is very interesting. I was not aware of the former perpetuation of multiple regional traditions, although I remember Sir Richard Burton taking issue with the way Latin was pronounced at Oxford around mid 19th c. --he favored something more Italiate.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

Yes indeed! You'll hear in a new recording I will publish in some days of Einhard's biography of Charlemagne from 800s AD that I chose to use the traditional Italian pronunciation, but only after much deliberation and sūdor! The traditional Italian pronunciation is actually inappropriate for any Latin text after 1300 AD (after which point we have the same phonology for Italian as the language has today, and therefore we can safely apply the Italian Latin sound to such works). But for 800 AD? The traditional German or French pronunciations are also inappropriate since they don't get standardized till much later, about 1500 AD. And making assumptions about the phonology of the 9th century in the Frankish kingdom, and then applying that to a fluent recitation style, were too much to make coherent. So I did choose the Italian Latin sound for that recording, but I think it's just as inappropriate as using the Classical pronunciation. I did respect most long vowels at least. I hope you enjoy it when you hear it! For other future videos you'll hear traditional French and German pronunciations.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

And those will be on ScorpioMartianus, naturally.

Do you have or recommend a video on pronouncing the entire alphabet?

Unde igitur prōnūntiātus hodiernus italicus ortus est? Certē aliquantum tendunt rūrsus in aeva media rādīcēs.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

Scīlicet! Nīmīrum Italī aliquātenus similiter prōnūntiābant Mediō Aevō aque hodiē. Sed haec nesciuntur prō certō, crēdō.

This video confuses me somewhat, because here in Germany both the Restored Classical and the Italian pronunciation are virtually unknown except among a few specialists. The traditional German pronunciation is still standard, e.g. in the church. At school we used a version of it which was influenced by the Classical pronunciation (c always = k).

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

That’s not true at all. Most German schools use Classical, but the teachers often have a very strong accent influenced by German phonology

@daisybrain9423

Жыл бұрын

​@@polyMATHY_Luke That's what he means by "At school we used a version of it which was influenced by the Classical pronunciation." It is ideally the Classical pronunciation we are taught, but in practice it only resembles it, to be frank. C is indeed always /k/, but my teachers always pronounced ae as /ɛ:/. And of course, no attention is given to teaching vowel-length properly. As for church, I often sing Latin in church and we use almost exclusively the traditional German pronunciation; though this might be different in other places.

Bro the audio at the beginning of this scared me because it sounded like a person in my room

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Lol

34:00 : Well, when I was tought latin in school (in Germany) we definitely had a distinction in vowel length; espacially because we also have it in german. I think the pronunciation rules that I've learned would irritate you; and these were taught to us as "classical" (and that's the irrittating thing about it ;-). 36:00 Pronunciation of american english: well, point is that one day in Germany I was overhearing a conversation of some teenage girls which I pretty fast seem to recognize as english ... BUT ... I couldn't understand a single word. It took me more than ten minutes to get at least one phrase, that was you're; I've never heart that this strangely pronounced: a short "y", followed by a long "rrrrrrrrrrre". And the rest of the word must have been something like that. No idea which local variation that was, but it certainly did neither sound britain nor australian nor irish or scottish.

Question: When saying words in Ecclesiastical Latin, for words like ecclesia, peccatis, &c do we say it as "PE - KA - TIS" or "PEK - KA - TIS" like saying "luck cost"?

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

The second, as in Italian, and all forms of Latin.

@tylerchua929

2 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thanks! Are both letters plosive (eck-cklesiam) or is the first consonant sort of "cut short" as in (ec- cklesiam)?

Saint Jerome learned latin in Rome, his native tongue was Dalmatian Vulgar latin, which on the other hand made an influence on slavic croatian later. Modern Croats are genetically mostly descendants of Jerome's Dalmatians who mixed with slavic speaking Croats in early middle ages, but many preserved their language up till 19th century. So it's not surprising how many cases in croatian (there are 7) have the same endings and understanding as latin with many borrowed words. Until Ottoman conquest whole old regnum of Croatia was under strong latin influence.

@josippavelic6390

3 жыл бұрын

Croatian latin was probably more similar to italian than polish due to influence

@Lobo1888

3 жыл бұрын

@@josippavelic6390 traditionally ecclesiastical latin in Croatia is german/polish middle european variant (eg. Caelis = celis). Dalmatian romance speech never influenced ecclesiastical latin in Croatia because croatian coastline had privilege of using croatian version of churchslavonic in liturgy. Nowdays on local/diocesian traditional latin mass you can hear middle-european pronounciation and on SSPX mass it's italian pronounciation.

After talking 2 years of Italian in high school, I have to say, first time I heard you speaking Latin I was disappointed.... Perhaps disillusioned is a better word. I expected Latin to sound a lot more like Italian and the difference was stark, I was surprised. Now I heard the "traditional Italian pronunciation" and it sounded a little closer in terms of like the hard C going soft (ce, ci) that I'm used to, also do the V's still get pronounced as English W's in italiano tradizionale pronunciation or they go to a pure English V sound as in _vanilla_ ? That also threw me off. As well as the English H sound in "hoc" I thought that in romance languages the H always does something funky and I didn't expect to pronounce it as English H as in "Harry." I'm flabbergasted. I'm going to have to learn latin for myself now. Challenge accepted. 👊🏻

@Kevin-zv6ds

3 жыл бұрын

Jajjaja I was surprised too when I discovered the V, H, and C pronunciations! A lot of people in the US also have the Italian Latin version in their minds rather than the reconstructed pronunciation. To a lot of people Italian Latin IS Latin

24:43 Galician/Portuguese and (western) Leonese still retain this dipthong as ou or oi.

Vulgus meaning folk, which one was first. Oh Folk... Hooray for Northwest Germanic.

The English pronunciation of Latin words (UK and especially US), thanks to the Great Vowel Shift, seems the most unnatural; I remember hearing, in movies and TV shows, upper class British characters address their parents as “May-turr” and “Pay-turr”. The borrowed Latin words for male and female graduates of a school are not too bad in their singular forms (if you don’t mind the second syllable rhyming with “plum” instead of “room”), but the PLURALS! The masculine plural is pronounced in English the way the feminine plural is pronounced in Latin! It’s confusing to someone who knows the “proper” Latin vowels when communicating with people without that knowledge. But one of the worst examples is the phrase “vice versa:” the “v” sounds in English versus the “w” sounds in Latin; the “eye” rather than “we;” the “s” and silent “e” rather than “keh;” so that “weekeh wairsah” becomes “vise vursa.” Oh, and “wehrsoos” becomes “verses” in English!

@timothyfreeman97

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. There's a Priest in Sydney who is originally from England. His latin is very 'british' . 'Pah-tehh No-stehh, qui es in chey-lease, sang-tee-fee-chetuuh nomen too'um'.

Call me lazy, but as an Italian speaker, I use sort of a hybrid pronunciation of Latin. I use the classical pronunciation in general, but I prefer the Italian "v", "ci" and "ce". The hard C just grates on my ears horribly and interrupts the musicality of the language. Just my personal preference.

Amazing! I am not sure if I have to tell you I will use it right away or ignore it completely!! Sorry, it is my duty as a choir teacher to say that we have been directed in a biased (!?) path by the political influence of the Holy Catholic Church into usign one way of pronunciation. Being a native spanish speaker from Panama I shouldn't object accents as they won't be the cause of speaking badly a language as would be the breaking of grammatic rules. Modern spanish is widely influenced by modern english (and pronounced very hilariously!) and we should take care. Anyway... we will keep singing in the Ecclesiastical way since most of our music in latin is made for sacred pieces, yet I'd be ignoring Beethoven's, Händel's or Tallis' Latin. Gratias tibo ago!!!!

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Of course! 😊 And you should, because you like it that way. That's reason enough, as you may have seen here: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ipmltteJitmfkdY.html It's worth mentioning, though, that Beethoven and Händel didn't write their pieces for the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation, as we call it today - they used the traditional German pronunciation of Latin, naturally. But in the 20th century we associate their works in choir with the traditional Italian pronunciation only by recent convention, so we like that. It's purely subjective. It's not wrong at all; but it's a new phenomenon of the past 100 years. Nothing wrong with that! As long as we enjoy it. 😊

@marodrey

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you sooo much! I am overwhelmed now. Knowing that there is a proper and proven latin pronunciation, of which I have spoken to to my choir mates, I find it difficult now to keep pronouncing it as the Ecc norm approves of. Thanks a million!!!

Like with Czech, Italian and Latin, my vowel length radar does not come naturally to me. Perhaps because they are not as predictable to me.

There are a few point to make about Roman church pronunciation, where it come from, and why. Having to chose a way of speaking became a priority, because of the ever increasing number of high prelates coming from all over the world in the early 20 centuries, much more then previously leading to a difficulty in understanding each other and because the "standard" classical pronunciation has not been widespread at the time. They could have chose whatever pronunciation they wanted because Latin spanned for more then 1000 years becoming a "lingua franca", so they probably went for Christian classical pronunciation, used by Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose and the early important figures of the church. It was also probably easier to pronounce for the Italian born speakers which were still the majority in Vatican. This brought the pronunciation of the "Italian" "C" instead of the latin "K" and the sweating diphthongs like AE and OE into Ee while keeping the old AU to not vulgarize the Latin pronunciation too much and because, I think, they were well aware of Cicero making fun of the way the rural areas were spelling Latin. Today the way the Roman Church speaks is less of a problem and the fact that many are learning Latin with classical spelling is not a big deal. What makes the Roman Latin important is that they kept revising their Latin dictionary with modern words, so that Latin speakers are able to refer to modern objects and concepts in a mutually understandable way.

As a musician/conductor, I have spent 40 years listening to the debate of how to pronounce the Latin Mass. Is there a definitive consensus on this? Is it E-ch-ay Homo, or, E-kay? Verum, or Werum? Is it the same for Chant as for Mozart? Help.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Definitive in what way? They’re just conventions and thus subjective: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ipmltteJitmfkdY.html

I'm studying sacred music in Germany and, as part of my studies, we work a lot with choir repertoire in latin. Up till now I really didn't understand why the pronunciation used here is widely different than what I learned in my previous degree in Brazil and nobody could really explain it a part from "you use the Italian pronunciation while we use the German one". Your video fully clarified the topic! How is it possible that you have only 4500 subscribers with such high quality content? So thank you very much for the lesson and please keep up the good work!

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Vinicius Passos That’s very nice of your! 😃 Haha I don’t know! Please help me by sharing the video.

@Vinicius.Passos.

4 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke sorry for bothering. I was editing my comment so I could elucidate why your video is so important and interesting to me, besides your great work!

Why would you pick RP for the standard pronunciation of English, even though it's spoken by a rather small percentage of people? Very comprehensive exposition by the way.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Tradition, I suppose

Hey, Luke. When are you going to explain the etymology of "ci" as the equivalent object pronoun of "us"? In Spanish is "nos" from "nosotros." How did "cic" end up as the object pronoun of "noi," when both "nosotros" and "noi" come from the common "nos"?

@michaelm-bs2er

2 жыл бұрын

The Italians started using the pronouns "ci" and "vi" (and to a lesser extent "ne") to substitute the pronouns "nobis" and "vobis." "Ci" came from "hicce" which means "here/in this place" and they started to use it in the sense of "where we are/from us/by us". "Ibi" meant originally "over there" and started to be used more in the sense of "there where you (plural) are/from you/by you". Kinda like in English if I was to say "gimme that there book" (of yours). In some places "ne" from "inde" was used in place of "nobis." The original meaning was "from there/thence" and it shifted to mean "from where we are/ from us" as well as "of it", "some of it/some of them". I don't know exactly when the shift happened, but I think all Italian dialects do this so we can assume it goes back to around the time Italo-Romance split off from the other romance languages (circa 800 AD?). I think there were also older Italian forms that did come from nobis and vobis. Can't remember what they were but I think they were mainly known by writers and scholars and never part of common speech.

@anthonypalomo9472

2 жыл бұрын

@@michaelm-bs2er Grateful and relieved to understand something that absolutely made no sense to me. Can't help it!! Gratia tibi ago!!

@michaelm-bs2er

2 жыл бұрын

@@anthonypalomo9472 No problem, happy to help. And definitely not an easy concept to wrap your head around.

I'm am still hesitant to accept that Ecclestical pronunciation (I will refer to it as EP) has long vowels. I will list some objections that perhaps someone can clear up for me. 1. Just because authors who used TI (Traditional Italian pronunciation) wrote poetry with long vowels, does not mean TI has long vowels. Their poetry was based on poetry found during the Classical period. Thus, they were only adopting vowel length based on how those words fit the old meter. In non-metrical writings they could have made no vowel length distinctions. 2. Italian does not have long vowels. I'm not sure if EP is based on TI or the pronunciation of standard Italian (like I had always heard) but if the latter is true, why would there be long vowels when Italian does not have any? 3. Proper EP punctuation dictates using an apex to mark stress (e.g. princípium). There is no marking of vowel length. This is a weaker argument because if there are long vowels they are mostly ignored. Furthermore, the argument could be made that long vowels are necessary for knowing where the stress goes (which I have not seen be the case. All that is necessary is to know where the long vowels are in Classical pronunciation, and then words can be pronounced without long vowels. I appreciate any feedback and correction. I hope what I wrote is understandable and representative of the position. If anyone can persuade me against these arguments (which I am completely open to) I would be very thankful. I am just interested in pronouncing everything correctly.

Interesting about the pronounciations ! I thought only the Traditional English Pronouncation was completely phased about and the rest are at different levels of being phased out ? Like I know Germans still use theirs quite a bit. I thought that was the case ?

In Romanian "au" remained "au": taurus > taur; aurum > aur.

@thomasruhm1677

3 жыл бұрын

This also occures in some dialects of Romansh. The speakers of these two languages must be quite educated.

An addendum, having heard to the end of the video: Remember, with language comes culture. There is no cultural neutrality in choosing pronuntiations. The Italian pronuntiation is attached to the Traditional Latin Mass. Pope Pious V, in the bula Quo Primum Tempore, stated that this mass could not be revoked for ever (ammendments obviously allowed, by future popes). This became debatable after the imposition, in dec 1969, of Novus Ordo Missae, written from scratch by a committee, but it was clarified by JPII, that confirmed the older Missal was never abrogated, and Benedict XVI, that decreed that the use of the old Missal did not need any kind of special permission. The American version of the English translation of the Roman Missal is in its 4th iteration. The Brazilian version is on its 3rd. Every new edition is an opportunity for changes in wording, and with it, world views, ideology, etc. I strongly disagree that Italian Latin will disappear in a hundred years. The reasons traditional catholics have for maitining it are far deeper than the arguments exposed in this video. It´s often said that, intentionally or not, the liturgical reformers threw out the baby with the bath water. Legally, it was just "allowed" for translations of the Missal. In practice, there was cultural revolution, and every aspect of catholic life was changed. Traditional catholics are very aware that the maintenance of the Latin Language is crucial for maitaining all these other aspects of catholic tradition, and even Tradition, the Faith itself passed down by Christ to the Apostles. St. Pious X condemned the "desire for novelties" as a caracteristic trait of modernism, in his encyclical Pascendi. No traditionalist will start "experimenting" with alternative pronountiations of Latin, just for the fun of it. Moreover, its liturgical use is illegal, as those that say Mass according to the 1962 Missal, are bound by all other liturgical laws surrounding it. As for a possible change in legislation by a future Pope, all traditionalists only hear the Latin Mass because some openly disobeyed Paul VI and the other revolutionaires, most notably Mons. M. Lefebvre. All rules coming from Rome in the direction of undermining traditional practices will surely be desobeyed. Recently, under Francis, there have been talks on adding some saints to the 1962 Calendar, for example, but everyone knows that these are just attempts to undermine and ultimately eliminate the TLM. Most traditionalists will not accept any change unless "Rome returns to Tradition", and the New Mass is abrogated.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Catuí Côrte-Real Suarez sure, but as I have demonstrated elsewhere on this channel - see my Immortal Language video - the Italian pronunciation of Latin has only been Ecclesiastical for a mere century. That’s nothing in the history of the Church, as you well know - sūs Minervam docet! 😅 ignōscās. There is nothing inherently more Catholic than the Italian pronunciation; indeed, the opposite may easily be argued, that between Ecclesiastical and Classical standards, one was heard during the time of Christ and the first Christians, and the other was not. I don’t dismiss the beauty of Ecclesiastical pronunciation, and I hope you see on this channel that I support people who wish to enjoy it. But when it comes to people who actually *speak Latin fluently* like myself and the 10,000 others worldwide, users of Ecclesiastical pronunciation make up less than 5%. You can expect their number to drop in the coming decades. That’s just my prediction as a Latin speaker, having met numerous clergy and hundreds of Italians who have chosen Classical over Ecclesiastical as their way of speaking. Why that is, surely differs from case to case. But I renew that observation weekly, and it still seems to be true.

@Catuireal

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Just whatched it. It cleared a lot of confusion, thanks. But for the first centuries, actually classical pronuntiation would be the one of those killings catholics, as the vast majority of catholics spoke Greek at that time! lol And is very well documented that the lower urban classes converted first, so it was vulgar Latin or rude Latin, at best. As for clergy using classical pronuntiation, it´s political. It´s the way wars are waged inside the Church! Like Luther introducing German.

@enriquetaborda8521

3 жыл бұрын

@@Catuireal Even though the classical pronuntiation would have had to do with those killing Christians, it is also true that it would have been spoken by many of those that came from the nobility, even saints like Saint Helena mother of Constantine. Also, do you think clergy that opts for conversations in Restitute Classical Pronuntiation are the ones waging war against Tradition? (It is an honest question, no irony) Because I would think the ones that wage war against Tradition from within the Church are at war with Latin itself and undermine any reference to the language. I really do not think they would be interested at all in any debates on its different modes of pronuntiation... In my opinion Classical Latin could in any way be compared to Luther's German. All the best!

How did you not mention the Italian pronunciation of "c"? No other tradition has this and Italian think that it's the only one that is acceptable. can we hear more about it?

Hearing you speak English is so weird. I'm so used to hearing your Latin, even though I have heard you speak English before.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

lol it's weird for me too 😂

The map that appears at roughly 5.00 is very outdated - Serbia and Montenegro is now 3 states: Serbia, Kosovo, and Montenegro.

Quite likely the ecclesiastical pronunciation is on its way out pedagogically (was it ever in much use in teaching Latin?), but liturgically it will likely remain the standard in the Roman church. Certainly, any priest I hear using another pronunciation is likely to have a maniple thrown at him.

In Sardinian, au developed into 'a', although in 'oricra' (ear) there's an 'o'

@wordart_guian

4 жыл бұрын

and in occitan it is still pronounced aw to this day

@viperking6573

4 жыл бұрын

@@wordart_guian That's cooool

@wordart_guian

4 жыл бұрын

@@viperking6573 also, in parts of gascon (pretty near my home in the case of v), j and v are still semivowels, and we have j/i and v/u alternation in gascon, which I think is uncommon (roi/roja and blau/blava are red and blue)

@viperking6573

4 жыл бұрын

@@wordart_guian That's very cool! xD i/j exists also in Sardinian, for example 'game' is still jocu /joku/ like latin iocu(m)

@alexandruianu8432

3 жыл бұрын

In Romanian it never diverged - ex.: aur.

The sardinian words "paberile", "paperos" (PAUPERILE, PAUPEROS), "travu" (TAURUS) prove that the AU diptongue was pronounced /aw/ still in classic latin.

I would say, as a complete non-expert, that there are three “tracks” of Latin, each with its place. The first is the Vulgar Latin, which exists today as Romance languages. The second is the Ciceronian, classical pronunciation of Classical Latin, which was retained by the very educated until the Middle Ages or so. But competing with this was not just the vulgar tongue, but a sort of imitative and originally non-educated or minimally educated pronunciation of Classical Latin but with phonological elements of the Vulgar tongue slipping in and going uncorrected. This “middle class,” I imagine, was the rural clergy and the uneducated monkry who recited and sang an abundance of Latin in their daily work. That’s not to say that the clergy were entirely uneducated, but most were not. While the clergy of Rome retained, fur a while probably, the classical pronunciation, on the outskirts where the people spoke no classical Latin and the priests spoke it only in recitation, not conversation, the language absorbed some aspects of the local phonemes. Like you said, all language is artifice (a very useful and beautiful one, albeit). This localized vulgarized pronunciation of Classical Latin (but still separate from the vulgar tongues) crowded out the properly artificed Ciceronian pronunciation, even in Rome. Giving us the local traditional pronunciations. As an English speaking Catholic, and one who’s intending to enter a seminary that trains priests to say the old Latin mass, teaching with LLPSI but with ecclesiastical pronunciation, I both appreciate and resent Pius X’s standardization of the Italian ecclesiastical pronunciation. I think that, as someone who is not studying Latin primarily for the Classics, but to conform myself to a long tradition of simple clerics, I have no interest in saying mass or reciting offices with the classical pronunciation, since, for the great majority of clergy in church history, a vulgarized pronunciation was used. I appreciate Pius X’s standardization of Church Latin, because the the traditional English “vulgarized” pronunciation was, as you said, in a state of utter disrepair. I don’t mind having to get an Italian transplant, since unfortunately the vowel shifts of English had mangled their Latin. (After all, with the English Reformation, the amount of Latin being spoken in a Christian context, along with Romish priests, was reduced to almost nothing, so the lately vowel-shifted English traditional Latin pronunciation has just about nothing to do with the Catholic Church. Perhaps a pre-vowel shift (thus pre-Reformation) traditional English pronunciation could be reconstructed and revived...) But I would resent the pope if I were from any other country, since they do NOT need Italian transplants, and their local vulgarized pronunciations are all fine. As far as I can tell though, the Germans and French continued to use their traditional pronunciations in Latin liturgies, and the pope never pushed back against this. You can hear it in recordings of French monasteries of that era: not “che,” but “se,” etc. All that is to say that I think both pronunciations have their place, even if I can’t quite define it. I would read Cicero, Augustine, and Jerome with a classical pronunciation, but Jerome’s vulgate, the Latin liturgy, and medieval Church documents with the vulgarized one, which in my case would be the transplanted Italian one, since the English one is a monster. That is, if I could read Latin at all, but I’m working on it!

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

TheZestanor right! I the most important thing to do is to pronounce all long vowels distinct from short vowels. Otherwise you remove nearly half of the vowels from the Latin language. Maintains syllable quantity and elide through final -m, like all other final vowels. But keep the Ecclesiastical consonant phonemes. They are a minor difference. Did you see my video on Roman macrons and hidden quantity?

am not an expert, but I grew up in Italy and only had 6 years of Latin in school and I would like to express my view on Restored vs Ecclesiastical pronunciation. 1. When I hear Latin pronounced with the Restored pronunciation, I literally understand nothing. So it’s false to say that there is absolute mutual intelligibility between the two pronunciations. 2. The Vatican is the only country in the world in which Latin is official and daily in use. One could say that the Vatican and by extension the Catholic church are the only two institutions that are keeping the language alive outside of the academia. Hence, the accusation of anti-historicity of the Ecclesiastical pronunciation is unjustified. No one in the Vatican is claiming to be able to speak Latin like at the times of Jesus Christ. And yet, if most of us have heard any Latin insider or outside of the academic world, it’s most likely due to the preserving efforts of the Catholic church over the centuries. So Ecclesiastical speakers are entitled to speak Latin in the way they want it, because this is the way that the only country whose official language is Latin does nowadays. The same church has created a pronunciation which is far simpler than the Restored one and this has made Latin easier to teach, to read, to speak and to sing. 3. I also wonder. If we say „dolce“ and not „dolke“ in Italian, as we say „cielo“ and not „kelo“ and we say „annunziare“ and not „annuntiare“ (I could continue with many more example…) and if it’s true that Italian is, maybe with the exception of the Sardinian language, the closest one to Latin, its „filia dilecta“, could it be that our ancestors pronounced „dulCis“ and not „dulKis“, „Caelo“ and not „Kaelo“ and so on? And are we really sure that everyone used the same „Classical“ pronunciation across the entire Republic or later, Empire? Whilst I respect everyone‘s choice, it makes me sad to see Italian experts and teachers of Latin give up on the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, maybe to please a more international audience of Anglo-Saxon KZreadrs, I wonder?

03:06 ....Restored Classical pronunciation, ...03:45 the Italianate pronunciation of Sallust.

Germany does not use restored classical. At worst, many teachers teach with German pronunciation, and at best, they use a hybrid pronunciation halfway between modern German and classical.

@polyMATHY_Luke

2 жыл бұрын

Stimmt

Eya! Polish also distinct geminates hahae.

-tia pronounced like -tsia is probably the reason why we say Dalmacija instead of Dalmatija

I am Italian myself and I honestly never liked the Italian pronunciation. To me, it feels like a watered down Latin or an incomprehensible Italian. I self studied Latin for a year, with the kind help of my High School Italian teacher, but damn, she always insisted with the ecclesiastical pronunciation that I very much despised😂 so I ended up pronouncing a mix of the two (ex: I pronunced "scire"* as shire** and not skire**, but most other words I pronunced them in classical, except for Vs and I didn't care of the quality of vowels, sadly). I want to thank you tho, because after 3 years of zero Latin, I kinda want to start all over again, in the right way this time! By the way, I have a random question: when speaking Latin, how do I know modern words? Do I just assume and make declinations up? Like computer, do I make it a third declination? Computer, -is? Reading it as the English computer or modifying it as compiūter, -is???? I'm so confused lol, and there is plenty of other words. Take phone, video, photo, idk bicycle???? Lol, please help. *Sorry idk the quality of scire. Is it maybe scīre? **I don't know IPA either, sorry lol

@polyMATHY_Luke

4 жыл бұрын

Sì! "scīre" è corretto. Great questions! neolatinlexicon.org has pretty much every modern word you could need. And we have other resources too. Keep in mind that Latin has been continuously used alongside the modern languages, so we have words and expressions for everything in Italian and English. 😊

@Fabio-dn3fx

4 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Oh, grazie mille! Continua con il tuo meraviglioso lavoro qui su KZread, sei una fonte preziosa di conoscenza!💪

@sard-anonimus2818

3 жыл бұрын

I'm Sardinian, and in our language we still pronounce C=K - Latin vs Sardinian - scire -> ischíre (iskíre) - facere -> fàchere / fàghere - centum -> chentu - caelum -> chelu - cera -> chera - cervus -> chervu - cimicem -> chìmiche / chìmighe - filecem -> fìliche / fìlighe - pulicem -> pùliche / pùlighe Same for the G, pronounced hard, like the G of Game - mulgere -> mùlghere - tingere -> tìnghere - pungere -> pùnghere - angelus -> ànghelu - marginem -> màrghine etc.etc.

@Fabio-dn3fx

3 жыл бұрын

@@sard-anonimus2818 Che figo, aiuto. Se non erro il vostro dialetto è praticamente la lingua più vicina al latino, giusto? Troppo interessante! Ho visto qualche video di comparazione tra il Sardo ed il Latino e le parole simili, come ne hai scritte tue, sono tante!

@sard-anonimus2818

3 жыл бұрын

@@Fabio-dn3fx è una lingua a parte, forma un ramo tutto suo all'interno della famiglia Romanza, grazie all'isolamento geografico ha mantenuto un vocabolario molto più arcaico delle altre lingue della famiglia.

Calila et Dimna habet orthographiam quae ipsa montrat phonologiam iam disimilam classicae--e.g. "femine" (=feminae).

@peterbrown7688

5 жыл бұрын

Polymathy ita plures locis in hoc libro

I pronounce it based on the era.

@polyMATHY_Luke

5 жыл бұрын

That is a reasonable choice! However, it's also geographical, right? Many would pronounce Erasmus or Descartes or Newton or Copernicus in the traditional Italian pronunciation of Latin, but that's definitely not what Erasmus or the others would have been using in northern Europe. In fact, I would contend it is equally inappropriate to force the words of Mediaeval or Renaissance Germans, Frenchman, Englishmen, and Poles into the Italian/Ecclesiastical pronunciation as it would be to do them in Classical. Do you go to the effort to use each country's traditional pronunciation system?

@ironinquisitor3656

5 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke I don't know each countries pronunciation systems. I'd like to learn them though. Since I mostly focus on Latin after the Classical Latin era and but before the common people could no longer understand it I actually pronounce Latin according to the people's various reconstructed local pronunciations of Vulgar Latin/Late Spoken Latin/Proto-Romance. If there was a text from somebody who was Gallo-Roman I would use the reconstructed Gallo Roman pronunciation.

I'm English but was taught ecclesiastical pronunciation

Im now determined to learn Classical Latin, i do agree that Italian latin will disappear, its like using the wrong answer to a question for which we already found the correct answer

Sanctus stercore!

You probably already know, but another example of hypercorrection was probably Plautus which in fact would have been Plōtus. (I’ll write just in case you haven’t heard of it) As he came to Rome his name (according to this theory) would have been changed by the urban elite that found it to bee too rural

english accent is a geographical choice? well i now decide to choose my english accent from the past and there aint a damn thing you can do to stop me

I'm Polish. For many years, when I was a child, my father and I attended a small community Church where the Tridentine Mass was celebrated. The community was very traditional and forced every one of its members to use the same pronunciation - the Polish ecclesiastical. Because of that, even now when I have lost my faith, started learning the classical pronunciation and hold no feeling of superiority because of that, the ITALIAN ECCLESIASTICAL STILL ANNOYS THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF ME.

@polyMATHY_Luke

3 жыл бұрын

Haha, I know many Poles who feel that way, including my friend the great Ian Oko, whose KZread channel Ioannes Oculus is fantantic and you should subscribe too. He also likes the traditional Polish and is excellent at the Classical pronunciation too. But he hates Italian Ecclesiastical. I really don't know why lol since it's virtually the same as the Italian Ecclesiastical. It's just ce ci and ge gi that are different. Actually the traditional Slavic pronunciation of Latin is the same as the traditional German pronunciation of Latin, which is where you got it from. As I mention in my Immoral Language video on this channel, I think it's important to be tolerant, and appreciate the various standards as pleasing variety. That's how I see it, anyway.

@szymonharbuz9052

3 жыл бұрын

@@polyMATHY_Luke Jk, I am generally really tolerant when it comes to Latin pronunciation. But the hatred of italian ecclesiastical somehow prevails. It is especially weird since I speak Italian at an upper-intermediate level while only being a beginner in Latin. Idk, I feel like it is more the ti+vowel, sce/sci and gn sounds that annoy me. And maybe the silent H, too.

@zmaja

3 жыл бұрын

Hahaha, I hear you. Those slight differences, Luke, sometimes make a world of difference. And thanks for explaining from what tradition came traditional pronunciation to us, Slavs..

@zmaja

3 жыл бұрын

@@szymonharbuz9052 it's probably silent h for me, but it's a tight race...

The least convincing moment in the video is where you read the same excerpt (Sallustius, Bellum Catilinae) using either pronunciation. In the Italian pronunciation it sounds like a carefully pronounced yet natural prosody. In the classic pronunciation it is a long-carried dead drone though. That can't be right, can it? Whatever the language, speakers always try to grip the attention of the audience.

SANCTUS Pius X ora pro nobis