Ryan, we did this during CAPT Tucker's time in the late 80's. I was one of the OOD's to do this, but we didn't do it to stop, but rather to build up steam at a stop, then accelerate. We had USS Lake Champlain as our cruiser, and the cruisers could accelerate very well due to the controllable pitch propellers. What we did was go to all stop, build up power, as the ship wouldn't move with the barn doors shut. Once power was up, we put rudders amidship, and she took off. While it wasn't as fast an acceleration as an AEGIS cruiser, we did surprise people with how fast we got moving. My JOOD was a former OS chief that just got commissioned (Earl Reid), and he soon left for MIDWAY. I joined him several months later, and after we returned from Desert Storm, he was the OOD on the carrier. We had regularly scheduled JO Shiphandling time daily, and one day he and CAPT Cebrowski were discussing shiphandling, and Earl told him about closing the barn doors. CAPT Cebrowski asked about it, and Earl told him I had done this on NEW JERSEY. At this time, I was one of the MIDWAY's TAO's. They passed the word for me to come to the bridge, and the captain wanted to try the same thing we did in NEW JERSEY. So we briefed it, and Earl's team did it with me there. We came to a stop, closed the barn doors, built up power, then put the rudders amidship to accelerate. The skeg arrangement wasn't the same on the carrier, so it didn't keep us in the same position, but it was close enough. The key was doing this from a stop, as this was much less stressful on the rudders than what you described on the video. We had a few OOD's in NEW JERSEY who had done this as well before me.

@jefferyharrison7543

Жыл бұрын

Ryan, I was an OOD on the New Jersey in the 80"s, and actually was an OOD U/I under Lt. Scott Robinson (at the time) who published the NI article. At the time he was considered one of the best OOD on the ship and trained many of us. The document he references was given to all of us ensigns as the "ship driving" manual of the ship, and featured predominately on our SWO board. When we came out of the yards prior to the 88 cruise we did this maneuver. I was the CIC watch officer at the time. We did not do it from flank speed but at normal speed. It was a unique experience and did stop the ship in a much more swift manner. The real issue to the maneuver was not the commands to after steering, but the that of the EOOW watch and all the jumping through hoops of the engine and fire room to go from all ahead flank to all head astern.

@leftyo9589

Жыл бұрын

there's not too many ships that will keep up with a tico from a dead stop. they can hit max speed in 1 mile.

@trioptimum9027

Жыл бұрын

Huh. That's very interesting. Why was this desirable, though? Seems like if you suddenly need to be going fast, you'd probably be better off just pouring on the coal rather than spending the time to get the rudders sideways first and standing still for a while. Was this just a training thing, a way to keep in practice with some of the elements of a barn door stop without wrecking your rudders?

@absalomdraconis

Жыл бұрын

@@trioptimum9027 : It was likely for preparedness- it takes quite a while to get a ship's boiler ready, and it may be that you genuinely want to maintain position until you're ready, perhaps to finish some resupply or boat operations, perhaps to conceal your actions from observers, perhaps for some other reason. Or perhaps because you're on guard duty, and want to maintain position in case someone else is dispatched.

@dukecraig2402

Жыл бұрын

@@absalomdraconis Was doing something like a barn door stop hard on the machinery for the rudders? Sounds like the kind of thing that as an automobile mechanic I'd recommend to my customers not to do, like power breaking or neutral slams, doable, but hard on things.

Our DDG's had variable pitch propellers, our stopping distance, from flank to moving backwards was so short it was firstly, classified, but secondly, stunningly short, also surprisingly smooth.

@jaysonlima7196

Жыл бұрын

Dito on our FFGs

@robertf3479

Жыл бұрын

Our Spru-cans would do the same, reversing the pitch of our screws while moving forward at Flank bell. From Flank Ahead to the ship coming to a full stop and then picking up sternway was LESS than a single ship length (563 feet) and yes, you can feel the deceleration PLUS she's going to SHAKE from prop cavitation, if you have loose fillings in your teeth you're going to feel it there. 😁😁

@BALOYBEACHBUM

Жыл бұрын

Gas Turbines do that, battle ships steam!

@wfoj21

Жыл бұрын

drop the past tense of "had"- it is current. they have a controllable pitch propellor. They could simply change the propellors pitch - and try to not change the engine/ power/ RPM (but I think then you have to override the normal throttle operational mode)

@derekrohan9619

Жыл бұрын

Is it no longer classified? I only say that because there is a KZread video of a DDG at flank and doing exactly that. They are announcing it over the One mc or whatever you guys call it and a guy is recording it on the fantail.

I am fascinated by how this video not only discusses the manner in which we should view various historical records and how they rely on one another, but how it is, by itself now an historical record, thanks to some of the comments.

Yes, I was on board in the late 80's, and the 1 MC puts out that if you wanted to see something, go to the fan tail during the barn door stop. I worked back there at turret 3. there was a wall of white bubbling, turbulence that was well over the deck of the fan tail. Crazy cool.

@ericdove1382

Жыл бұрын

How late in the 80s were you on board? My dad was on turret 2 in the 80s.

@michaelcraig4710

10 ай бұрын

rooster tail !

Closing the barn door was something that was practiced as the ship gets closer to shore for evading smaller vessels that run across a ships heading. I did 3 solid years of sea-duty on a DDG. I normally held the throttleman's watch during operations of all sorts. There were five emergency crash backs in those three years and both of the skippers that I served under. Both of the use to love to do that and they always waited for me to be on watch when they were performed. I was the throttleman for main engine control and nobody could answer those bells as fast as I did. They actually use to bet on which engine room reacted fastest and most efficiently. All the officers and chiefs would bet. Part of the winnings went into the ship's slush fund. Also the damage that has been linked to closing the barn door was the fact that the very large pillar bearings that they use often would become loose and cause damage to the journal bearings that support the drive shafts.

@davidschwartz5127

Жыл бұрын

It seems to me that closing the barn doors stops the flow of water thru the props, which will causes the props to cavitate as if there is no load on them (I guess this is called building up power) and the engine and shafts RPM would increase and then suddenly open the barn door would dump a massive load on the engines and machinery but however, the props will still be cavitating until the RPM slow down to around 200 shaft RPMs. I would say that's like a drag race starting off the line in a drag race. This is very interesting and needs more research as to what really going on!

@ricksadler797

Жыл бұрын

I was on a CG and a DG we never did it ,, but plenty of crashbacks. I think our skipper didn’t like the mess cook’s

I continue to be amazed at the sheer amount of infrastructure and technology built into these ships.

@manuelhausmann6422

Жыл бұрын

Hell yes 👍 Think about Montana class. Even more protected and more Redundancy. Go to Wikipedia. It is impressive.

@Electronzap

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I know. I think it's because most of the people that we knew from that generation, couldn't even figure out how to set their digital clocks again when the power went out.

@dukecraig2402

Жыл бұрын

@@Electronzap VCR's were entirely out of the question for them.

@RuralTowner

Жыл бұрын

@@dukecraig2402 🤣

@kevinm5177

Жыл бұрын

Can we see where the rudder packing areas are inside the stern? Are they accessible?

This reminds me of the story of when the heavy cruiser Oklahoma was being brought in for the last time to be decommissioned and scrapped. The ship was coming in perpendicular to the dock when the captain ordered full speed ahead. The sip rapidly got to about 27 knots and people on the docks who were paying attention started running shoreward. The precise moment, the captain turned hard to port and the ship turned parallel to the dock, still coming toward the dock at a good speed. She slowed and came up to just kiss the dock ever so gently. The most awesome job of ship handling ever seen.

@duanem.1567

Жыл бұрын

Sea story. No steam ship comes into port doing 27 knots, nor "drifts" into its mooring spot.

@rdallas81

Жыл бұрын

I believe it.

@blackhawks81H

Жыл бұрын

@@duanem.1567 You must be fun at parties... "Cool story, I see people are enjoying it, I think I'll shit all over it"... Lighten up Francis.

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

Reminds me of a classic story of a sailor named Devonte' Davidson catching another young sailor face down ass up in his bunk and for 45 mins, "blew his spokes out" as they say. I love that one.

Every time I see the Established Titles ad, I think of the Lord Clarence McTavish scene from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. 'If you are a Scottish Lord, zen I am Meekey Maus!'

@jonathanstrong4812

Жыл бұрын

heh-heh-heh

@randyogburn2498

Жыл бұрын

And they just wanted to see the tapestries.

@colhunt76

Жыл бұрын

Note, this isn't a dig at Established titles, I'd actually like to own a piece of Scottish forest and call myself a Lord, assuming that land was accessible and I would get all of the other perks associated with such. Established Titles could drop some coin on licensing and use that clip in their advertising, and deepfake Indy's response to the butler; have him whip out a certificate, and 'Well, actually...'

@rayvanlandingham7218

Ай бұрын

Established Titles isn't a scam... if you actually pay attention they make it pretty clear that they are not "legal" titles. People think it's a scam because they don't get that it's a novelty gift. Given that it's Scotland, if it was actually a scam related to "noble titles" they would have been sued to oblivion years ago. This is the country that wouldn't let Trump use his fake family arms on a golf course sign. They just run into the whole "imaginary legal technicalities" crowd that thinks gold fringe on a flag matters, who persuade themselves that it's real.

@StraussWyldeTT

Ай бұрын

I checked and it’s alleged to be a “scam”. I ^think^ you need to actually own an estate to get that title and be a national… among other things.

A helmsman is given a "hard rudder" command, which he executes by swinging the rudders to "full" then eases them to "hard." This mnimizes the risk of jamming the rudders against the stops. This is how it is done on modern destroyers and I assume that this is true for all classes of ships.

A friend of mine was a Lieut (sg) on an amphibious carrier in the 1990's. He told me that the inspectors were aboard doing their annual whole ship systems inspections. At one point they wanted the ship to demonstrate a barn door stop. The chief engineer just flat out refused to do it. He just said, "No" and walked away. He was something like a prior enlisted 55 year old commander who was never going to make captain. They knew it, he knew it and they just left him alone and the barn door exercise undone. I also figure that he thought that the ship would actually be able to do a barn door only once, maybe; and it was probably better to wait for an actual emergency to try it, as it was likely to really really mess up the rudders.

@leftyo9589

Жыл бұрын

there is/was no test of any kind in the 90's that required any such maneuver. likely your friend is telling a sea story.

@mudman6156

Жыл бұрын

I served on board the USS Essex for 5 years and am a Plankowner of that ship. I’m extremely familiar with the Wasp class amphibious carriers. And I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt, there’s NO SUCH TEST on today’s Navy ships. It’s just NOT DONE. It would most definitely mess up the rudders. We would do a crash back. On the Wasp class ships, It was a faster way to stop than just stopping the screws. However, the majority of our ships are powered by gas turbines that turn variable pitch screws. They don’t take a mile to stop. Not even close. These ships can stop very quickly. Water would come over the back deck of those ships during a crash back. Crash backs were done. Closing the barn doors most certainly wasn’t. We didn’t do items that would result in damaging the ship, as ships are very expensive to repair. Furthermore, not only can such a maneuver damage the rudders, it can cause serious damage to the ship’s hull as well. And if the ship’s hull gets torqued out of its initial shape, that ship is basically totaled, as the damage caused is more than the ship’s actual value. To do a crash back, the ship’s engines are set to Flank while the pitch to the rudders is reversed. This immediately places the ship in full reverse. These ships have absolutely enormous screws on them in relationship to the actual size of the ships themselves. Those huge screws that can suddenly push the water in the opposite direction can stop a ship in far less than a mile in today’s Navy. The screws on the Amphibs is much smaller than those typically found on combatants. Thus, they’re both slower and don’t have nearly the same handling characteristics that combatants have. Wasp class ships are driven by steam and were the last of her type built. The follow-on America class, which look nearly identical (minus the well deck), are powered by gas turbines.

@duanem.1567

Жыл бұрын

Doing a "barn door stop" was not part of any engineering inspection at that time, and the Chief Engineer doesn't have a veto over what the ship will or won't do to comply with an inspection.

@v.mwilliams1101

Жыл бұрын

@@duanem.1567 In theory

Thank you! Brilliant video! Well researched, accurately presented, carefully bracketed with what is known and what is alleged. Really solid work! Thanks for your professionalism and insightful analysis.❤

Hey Ryan, you've touched on waterproofing before and your comment on the packing of the rudders potentially getting compromised from vibration has me interested in more packing info. I remember from the video on the shafts of the propellers that there was packing material there too. It could be an interesting video to talk about the waterproofing technology used and how well it all worked against what sorts of pressures, maybe comparing to modern tech or older tech.

@ravenbarsrepairs5594

Жыл бұрын

No technology to speak of. A fiber was packed around the shaft, then a bung was screwed into a threads in the hole packed with the fiber. As the bung is tightened, the fibers are compressed tighter to the shaft, sealing out water. when the shaft is rotating, gravity doesn't pull the shaft down as badly as when idle. Museum, and mothball ships, have an issue with gravity pulling down on the shaft, compressing the packing below, resulting in leaks. Look up "stern gland packing". Nearly every inboard boat uses this system. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fYZ4utBvlMzLeag.html

@kainhall

Жыл бұрын

yup.... exactly as Ravenbar repair says...... its just a rope covered in thick grease (or something like that) . VERY VERY VERY old tech..... but it works.... and is easy to service

@pizzaivlife

Жыл бұрын

Older battleship but Tom Scott (the older one) addresses this on BB Texas: kzread.info/dash/bejne/hW2buZKee7zAqqw.html

@WaterMan416

Жыл бұрын

@@ravenbarsrepairs5594 I can't speak to every class of ship but my own, but modern ships use mechanical seals with a packing system as an emergency backup

@russellstyles5381

Жыл бұрын

Do they use wooden shaft bearings? Until very very recently, that's all they had, metal did not work. arbor vitae.

I was an OOD on the 378' CG Cutters (the Chase), I never hear of the barn door maneuver, but with the controllable pitch props we could stop so fast that if you weren't holding on to something you'd fall. Acceleration was outstanding as well. I did not like using the gas turbines during docking maneuvers as there was way too much hp available (idle rpm on the props was much higher than on diesel power) and there is no exact setting for zero thrust. We could also turn around very quickly, of course using the bow thruster we could pivot or move sideways, it was not a tunnel thruster but was trainable and could go in any direction. I used it for aligning the ship along the dock so we could connect with our shore power point. Didn't have to start the mains to do that. Nice also that you could control the props, rudders, and thruster from the consoles on the bridge wings. We also had a feature not seen on naval vessels, Iron Mike, he could steer the vessel straight as an arrow even in a rough seaway. I never had any problem with Mike, he was very reliable unlike a lot of our other electronics. You might consider a video on the gyrocompass system that gives ships a highly reliable and responsive true north indication.

@jrsdiesel

3 ай бұрын

@henryostman5740 Small world! I served on Chase as well (2001-2004). From what I remember of the rudder setup on the 378's, the barn door stop was not possible. The rudders were linked together so that they always moved together. I don't recall though if it was possible at all to make them move independently.

Holy crap, was just going to send a question about Barn Door Stops and this pops up literally the next day.

This is especially fun to re-watch now we have seen modern (as opposed to old VHS tape) footage of the rudders and propellers in drydock!

Shortly after commissioning in 1976, my CO on the USS Hewitt DD966, ordered all back full from 15 knots. The ship stopped in less than hull length and many of us were almost thrown forwards. It was like slamming on the brakes on a car. The variable pitch screws made this possible.

Back in the good old days I was a BT on The FID CV 59 . We had accel-decel time tables at the main throttle. We did crash stops many times and would “double-up/double-down” cutting the times in half. It took forever to get the wheels stopped and eons to finally get them spinning in reverse.

I'm always struck at just how much engineering went into designing and building these behemoth ships! Was there any detail left out? I doubt it

I was a engineer on a tanker that had a single prop with twin rudders. The rudders were rotary vane type. The rudders were independent of each other. They were used for manurerving in port and could be used like a bowthruster and with the bow thruster made the ship very manuerable and didn't need tugs. The down side was that the sideways load on the steering gear caused considerable wear on the steering gear vanes, housing and rudder shift bearings. Requiring repairs ever 5 year drydocking at great expense. I am also sure the captain used them about the top speed limits as well.

Agree 100% with your oral history comment. I'm a historian in a different field and have many bite marks on my glutes from taking those histories as gospel. Trust but verify is my credo. I generally see a couple of flavors of oral history, those that come from someone seeking self aggrandizement and those from people whose memories have simply faded and/or drifted. The latter is far more common in my experience. I understand it. Now that I am old, I find my memory has drifted a lot and I do not remember clearly all the details, even of some military experiences where my well-being was at stake. But I also have bite marks from not taking someone more seriously. Every once in a while, I hear a story that turns out to be almost exactly correct and lines up with the documented facts. If you dismiss someone out of hand, you run the risk of losing that experience and information. I have lost a vital piece of a puzzle I am trying to assemble. Once a historian knows his topic very well, it gets easier to sort things out but he must have his ego reigned in so as not to fall into that trap of arrogance and dismissal. It's a fine line.

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

What gospel I gotta line up with to get a gaggle of sailor boys to get bites on my chocolate starfish like you did, cause that sounds orgasm inducing.

I bet that maneuver caused some "interesting" sounds for those aft & below the waterline 😱😄

I stood engineering and bridge watches on Missouri for almost 3 years. We never practiced or talked about "closing the barn doors" as a real option, for the reasons Ryan notes plus a couple more. Most of the time it would not even be possible, since After Steering was not manned during normal operations. I doubt it would stop 60,000 tons a great deal faster than 4 17'-18' diameter screws spinning in reverse.

At around the 6 minute mark during the engine room scene, there is a wheel that's sliding up and down.What is it, and why does it slide up and down? I've seen this particular scene multiple times and was just wondering what the wheel does.Thanks!

@NOOOOOOO0OOOOO

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I wanna know too.

@WaterMan416

Жыл бұрын

Looks like it might be a handwheel extension for an overhead valve. If the valve and associated piping is part of equipment that isn't rigidly mounted, it may be moving slightly as stuff flexes and moves. Just speculation, as I have no clue about this on an Iowa class.

@teddubois5645

Жыл бұрын

That valve handwheel is used to manipulate a valve in the overhead. The linkage that connects that handwheel extention to the actual valve broke during their maneuver and they're scrambling to fix it.

@MrRoadchaser

Жыл бұрын

To my understanding it was the valve to adjust the mixture and during this high speed run they began producing excess smoke and were scrambling to to correct the mixture.

@jimclark7125

Ай бұрын

That is not the engine room that is the fire room, those are BT's firing the boilers.

After Steering will be manned at all times that a US Navy ship is not securely tied to the pier. If you lose the electrical side of the rudder controls, the "trick wheels" are all that you have left to steer with. The trick wheels are mechanically tied to the spool valves which control the hydraulics on the steering gear. Your 1.5 - 2 degree difference is most likely the difference between "max rudder" and hitting the mechanical stops. Bad things can happen when you have a few thousand pounds of hydraulic pressure trying to move something that cannot be moved. If you are going to lose a hydraulic line and have a jet of high-pressure oil injuring men and setting up the space for a Bravo Fire, this is when it will happen. "Crash Back" results in the guys in the Engine Rooms shutting down the steam to all of the "Ahead" vanes in the two-stage turbines and providing steam to the single set of vanes in the High-pressure turbines. The real drama happens in the Fire Rooms, as steam production is still at the same level but demand just decreased very substantially. Now they have to adjust firing rate and dump steam, but still be prepared for an "Ahead" bell. Source: I was the poor guy that got rousted out of his rack to figure out why electrical control of the Steering Gear was lost. The Helm Console, the Synchro Receivers on the spool valves, and everything in between was my equipment.

@WaterMan416

Жыл бұрын

Is it a singular watch station where that's their sole watch station? On the sub, aft steering was part of the engine room upper level watch and him or the engine room supervisor were responsible for manning it for a steering casualty. There was a dedicated watch stander for the maneuvering watch.

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

On the ship that I was stationed on, After Steering was a dedicated Engineering Watch Station, I believe manned up by A-Gang. One transverse space. Two rudders. 2 hydraulic rams per rudder. I think one common Hydraulic pump with a backup. Memory dims. It's been over 30 years.

another great video from the battleship. thanks

I worked for a company that produced sonar equipment for SFF super fast frigates. When sea trials were done, one of the requirements was for the ship go from max forward speed to a full stop in two and one half ship lengths. That was enough force to throw dishes and other stuff off mess tables.

My Spruance class destroyer, DD-992 USS Fletcher, could reverse screws at top speed and be going backwards within the length of the ship. It was a great ship.

Your video looked like the BT's. As a MM standing throttle on the USS Sample DE 1048 (1200 # steam plant) off the coast of Vietnam got a full emergency back, running through fishing nets. You can't just close forward throttle and open back, it you do you will lift the safeties on the boilers you have to leave forward open and as you open reverse and throttle close the forward at the same time you start to open reverse. The ship bounced and vibrates like mad. Keep the great videos coming.

My Dad was in a fire room on the USS Boxer off Korea from 51-54. I don’t remember the exact details, but one time the orders came down during the launching of aircraft for full astern. When a plane when off the bow in a take off mishap. I don’t know about whether the closed the barn doors or not , but he said the whole ship shuddered violently when they did.

Great stuff team! 👍

Hey Ryan, First Wow, I learn so much every time I watch. What was the actual damage to the rudders you were talking about? Lastly, are you going to have another KZread night this year? I came last year and it was amazing. Thanks Again for everything, Adam B

I can imagine this conversation going down: Hey you wanna do something really funny? What if we did a full crash stop during meal time? I think that would be very funny. Sure.

Great info Sir. TY

Redundancy Redundancy. Impressive 👍 Thanks for the Information.

A Spruance class destroyer could go from flank 3 forward to all back full for an emergency crashback in 1 ship’s length, roughly 563 feet. We never did one while I was onboard due to the damage it would cause as everyone and everything would be thrown into the forward bulkhead.

I find it hard to believe that closing the barn doors can stop the ship in about 600ft since crash back is documented to take one mile. I read the ood manual and the barn door stories. If they had said the ship stopped in two lengths it would be more believable. There should be official documentation of Wisconsin's rudder repair somewhere. I guess you could also measure the height of the rudder stalks on each ship to see if Wisconsin really had them moved up. I hear you have contacts with the other Iowas. 😁

@mandowarrior123

Жыл бұрын

It will be in conjunction with a crash back.

@jth877

Жыл бұрын

@@mandowarrior123 Sorry, I meant to imply that.

@bentrod3405

Жыл бұрын

I mean you are basically opening up a giant parachute underwater. It’s gonna put a lot of force on that ship. Honestly surprised it wouldn’t just rip the rudders off entirely.

@beeber4516

Жыл бұрын

@@bentrod3405 Ever see the main shaft of a rudder on a big ship? More likely to rip the chute to shreds.

12:25 This is literally the only time I have seen Ryan have to check notes during a video

Speaking of primary sources, if this or any variant, was actually done it would have been recorded in the ship's Deck Log. The Deck Log is a record on a legal size form of all the navigational commands and major activities aboard a ship and is maintained 24/7/365(6) while underway and in port. It is the job of the Quartermaster of the Watch underway and the Petty Officer of the Watch in port to write out the log entries and is signed by the off-going Officer of the Deck when his watch is concluded. As part of the Navigation Dept on USS SPRUANCE (DD963) 1981-85, this was my job during Special Sea and Anchor Details and my GQ station until I was moved to Repair 3. There is a special short hand for recording all the orders to the helm and might be the subject of an interesting video in itself. All deck logs for decommissioned ships including NEW JERSEY should be available through the National Archives and Records Administration. According to the Naval History and Heritage Command, a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request must be sent specifying the name of the ship and date(s) that are to be covered. They might charge a fee depending on the number of deck log pages needed to cover the period requested. Deck logs can run to over 400 pages for a month and a simple sea detail might run three or four pages. A delay in processing might be experienced as the staff of the NARA review the logs for classified material. Still, this is THE source document about a ship's movements and activities. R. ROSE, PNC(SW), USN(Retired)

@BattleshipNewJersey

Жыл бұрын

Unfortunately not all of the deck logs are easily accessible. We only have most of WWII and Vietnam with very little other dates.

Understand that Iowa Class battleships are very old. The design is from the 1930s. My ship was commissioned in 1983. It had reversable pitch propellers. We could stop at flank 3 (top speed) by maintaining the same prop speed, but reversing the pitch of the propellers. Wen could do doughnuts in the water by reversing one prop while not reversing the other. My ship was a 536 foot Destroyer. I am pretty certain the big carriers had the same system.

I had a young man come to work for me after serving in Wisconsin off Iraq (Desert Shield / Storm.) He mentioned the "Slamming the Barn Doors" maneuver as if they had done it during his time aboard. He was probably trying to B.S. his LPO (me) judging by what I've learned here. That was something that I don't think the twin rudder Spruance class DD could do, I think the tiller heads of the rudders were linked through the same hydraulic systems. Besides, with CRPs (Controllable Reversable Propellers) we could stop the ship in a Crash Back maneuver at least as fast as 'Slamming the Barn Doors' could.

@tomasthomas8563

Жыл бұрын

Yes, the Sprew class could stop fast. About 620ft if I remember. The Kidd/Ayatolla class and all the Ticos were just as snappy in acceleration and stopping power. I don't know the start/stop distance of the Burke class DDG ships. I do know the Pegasus class PHM when doing a emerstop or crashback would throw a grown man across the compt along with everything else not tied in place. FFG 7 class was a snappy little sports car also.

@robertf3479

Жыл бұрын

@@tomasthomas8563 We could stop Caron in just under her own length from 32 knots, 563 feet long. The Kidd class and Tico class are all built on Spruance hulls, under the hood (from the main deck down they are Spruance hulls and machinery) although the Tico guys will try to B.S. you into believing that they can somehow coax an additional 5,000 HP out of each LM-2500 or that there is something "special" about their propellers ... there ain't. The last blade change Caron did while I was aboard was all 10 blades (chewed up by gravel at Roosevelt Roads.) The blades we got were brand new ones intended for the not yet completed Bunker Hill. The Kidd class' performance was exactly what ours was, the Tico class just a tad bit slower because they are between 1,000 and 1,200 tons heavier than a standard Spruance ... all that extra superstructure has a cost. Even though they seem smaller than a Tico, the Burke's displace about the same tonnage. They DO have that extra power the Tico and Spruance classes wish they had, their LM-2500s are rated at about 25,000 HP each vs 20,000 HP in the older ships. I believe the Burkes can also turn more quickly than the older ships as their length to beam ratio is less than ours, they are shorter and have a slightly wider beam and this DOES allow a tighter turning radius. I would LOVE to drive a Burke, just once at speed. Caron was a thoroughbred, loved to run.

I was a helmsman on a Gearing class destroyer and after steering on USS Samuel Gompers. Both were single rudder ships. I never was on a ship with more than the bridge and after steering so this is interesting.

“slow to accelerate” - I remember reading somewhere that it would take Hood around half an hour to get up to her full speed from a standing start. I suspect the need to raise more steam would be a factor in addition to power-to-weight ratio?

@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus

Жыл бұрын

Why would you not be able to bring the boilers up to full pressure at a stop?

@glennrishton5679

Жыл бұрын

I dont think it is the engine power available in taking so long to accelerate but rather the mass of the ship overcoming inertia plus having to move all that water aside. The same with stopping once some 50,000 tons are in motion despite backing full the mass wants to keep moving. Power to weight ratio. I have read several articles about schools for modern merchant marine deck officers and Pilots on handling various classes of ships such as large and small tankers, container ships etc.... These schools have small scaled down versions of various ships that the student is in driving. These scalded down models are themselves some 20' to 40" in length with rudder power and engine power proportional to the actual vessel The horsepower for the models is in the 1/2 to 3 horsepower range replicating the power to weight ratio of the actual ship.

another great video !!

There is a book that talks about one of the Iowa's entering dry dock and "closing the barn doors". This resulted in many of the keel blocks being moved out of place. Needless to say, the dry dock supervisor was not very happy at having to send down divers to check and reset their placement. I've got this book in my personal library but do not remember which one I read it from.

@ernestbottomer8065

Жыл бұрын

I read about Missouri grounding in early 50's. An order was almost given to 'Twist Ship '. Can anyone comment on that ?

@duanem.1567

Жыл бұрын

@John Foster, I've read that as well, but the ship ordered a backing bell that moved some blocks with prop wash.

Interesting, thanks.

I’ve heard of this being done before, they kinda stopped its use because the pressure on the rudders was pretty extreme and if I’m not mistaken actually did damage and bent one. I honestly can’t remember if it was a battleship or a carrier that tried it

I used to chat with Dick Landgraff on the old Battleships1 forum and on IRC. Great guy, knew his BB's inside and out.

If this action was done it should appear in the ships' logs. These are legal documents and, I believe, are kept permanently by the Navy. It would be difficult to research the archived logs, but that could confirm that it was done. I believe at least one Iowa class did run aground on the east coast, and it took several weeks to get her refloated.

@mannys9130

Жыл бұрын

This sort of thing will be incredible for AI in a decade or so. Those handwritten or perhaps typewritten log documents can be fed into a mass volume scanner and digitized, all of them, the entire ship's daily event history. Then an AI bot can intelligently review them 1 by 1 in a matter of minutes. Years and years of data reviewed in minutes and the AI can say "The search terms 'close the barn doors' and 'barn doors' returned 0 results." It's not far off at all. We may already have this, idk. I bet the ATF would looooove to retrieve and scan every inked 4473 that every FFL has or had for many years and make a centralized comprehensive owner database. 😑 Something like that will push development and construction of this sort of AI utility into Warp 9 speed.

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

@@mannys9130 This is why your 4473's should all be from your local pawn shop where you purchased the cheap pieces of crap that you are almost afraid to fire, but that justify the itemized receipt entries on your ammo purchases...Which they will inevitably cross-reference with the 4473's to see if you are buying ammo for something that they don't know about...

@jth877

Жыл бұрын

@@kevincrosby1760 Eventually the .gov will find a way to track everything. They will knock on your door and demand you hand over your semi-automatic collectable M1 Garand to save democracy.

@CoachNealF

Жыл бұрын

Not a BB but a DD in July, 1971, near Cape Cod.

@garygreen7552

Жыл бұрын

@@CoachNealF USS Missouri ran aground in Chesapeake Bay on 17 January 1950 and was stuck for two weeks. The Captain and some other officers were disciplined for the accident. The ship was repaired and was able to return to action. I found this info in a Wikipedia article on the grounding.

If it is at all possible, a check of the maintenance logs could show if this was ever done. Severe damage to both upper and lower bearing\bushing surfaces and other similar repairs for stress fractures in the area could be possible clues. Yes there would be the usual damage that would occur, but you'd be looking for an unexpected increase in damage \wear over a fairly short time. Could even be mentioned off hand as unusual hammering of the rudder.

@Claymore790

Жыл бұрын

Also, if you could find the 'unofficial' records of a long serving machinists mate, that's where you could possibly find more proof one way or another.

Good question for any naval wargamer! A word about turning radii thrown in, maybe?

2nd he said - but he meant. he said Pensacola (FL) - he meant Pascagoula (MS)- at 12 minutes. Excellent video a lot of history and research presented. Oh - addition - many ships may have 2 rudder and may not be able to do this. The will have the rudders physically linked together - a big bar- and via this less hydraulics and controls (1 versus 2 ) pretty certain US destroyers and cruisers are like that (can some one confirm?) BIG difference between Pensacola & Pascagoula - I'm certain early in his career Captain P.Mitchell was at Pensacola - probably never visited Pascagoula.

@brentsawyer2006

Жыл бұрын

Pensacola used to have a naval shipyard back in the age of sail but since the early 1900s it’s become more aviation oriented. Pascagoula has the infrastructure, Pensacola doesn’t.

The "barn. door" stop brought to mind Manfred Curry's water brake for racing sailboats. t is now prohibited. But could be used too. slow your sailboat down without changing the trim of the sails. Useful to avoid being over early at a start, or to let a boat to weather to get ahead so you could tack to a better. course.

Men, drafting boards, pencils, slide rulers. It was the end of the 1930s. We see the finished product, but the sheer undertaking and resulting accomplishment is staggering. And they're still here.

@glennrishton5679

Жыл бұрын

Pretty much the same technology that designed the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo space craft.

dude, the unimaginable forces acting on those rudders if you just snapped them shut like that! Funny they didn't bend or break.

The Wisconsin hit a destroyer in 1956. I would assume before hitting they were in full reverse. It happened in fog so they probably were going slower. The destroyer DD-510 survived and the Wisconsin got the Kentucky's bow.

@robertthomas5906

Жыл бұрын

Legend has it that's how it became to be known as the USS Wiskey.

@dougm5697

Жыл бұрын

I read an article on the Wisconsin - Eaton Collision in 1956. The reaction time was very short between observing the destroyer Eaton cutting in front of the Battleship Wisconsin. Here is a link to the deck log: www.usswisconsin.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Deck-Log-6-May-1956.pdf

@dougm5697

Жыл бұрын

@@robertthomas5906 The WisKy. The damage to the Battleship Wisconsin was repaired by replacing the sections with the bow of the unfinished Iowa Class BB that would be been named the Kentucky. Hence WisKy as the nickname

@oceanmariner

Жыл бұрын

@@dougm5697Thanks, Looks like the log has some BS. States the Wisc, backed full until dead in the water, but they still hit the Eaton with enough force to crush enough of the Wisc. bow to require taking the Kentucky's for repair. And mount 51 on the Eaton was destroyed. Lotta damage for dead in the water and 90° hit.

@dougm5697

Жыл бұрын

@@oceanmariner Note that there were six seconds from spotting the Eaton till the collision. The WisKy may have eventually gone dead in the water, but it was after colliding with the Eaton.

FYI, the Landsgraff article claims the rudders were _loose_ rather than _leaky_

Awesome review, and obviously you know a little about Navy engineering; if I ruled the world, I would demand you get your own Discovery or History Channel documentary show.

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

Yeah, I love his unboxing and review videos too

Would be really cool to see a video about the various pumps and pipes on the ship

@Vile-Flesh

Жыл бұрын

Agreed. I would love to see the pumps and tanks/reservoirs for the water/fuel/hydraulic oil. How many hydraulic fluid reservoirs are there for each turret and can number 1 turret access number 3 turret's reservoir if the one for number one is compromised? I really want to see and learn more of the hydraulic pumps and electric motors for the turrets.

@kevynthompson1391

Жыл бұрын

It would take a year or two to cover all the pumps we had onboard.

I was told about closing the barn doors by my dad my uncle and grandfather all three said it was only to be used in extreme emergencies like collisions all 3 were navy vets starting from WW2 thru the first gulf war

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

Yes, my entire family are always telling me to close my barn doors cause if I didn't, they'd eventually stay open and all the light footed fellows would be chasing me around town.

been watching this channel for years i suspect he been everywhere but more episodes come out so I guess not for any visitor they are in good hands if they get him

Cavitation vibration must have been intense .

My dad told me a story from when he was on the USS Missouri. They were coming into a port Anchorage, and the navigator was counting down the distance to the Anchorage. 10,000 feet, 9,000 ft, 8,000 ft, 7,000ft.... oh wait we are at the Anchorage!!!!!. They went into full reverse and dropped one anchor to stop the ship. Well the anchor played out to the end and then broke. So I can say the stopping distance is greater than one anchor chain. Fortunately they did stop before hitting anything.

After steering was a 24x7 manned station on my ship (DDG-21). If we were underway, it was manned. It was my first watch standing station outside of my work center when I reported aboard as an E-4 (FTG3). Three years later I was Work Center Supervisor (Gun Plot) and in charge of the watch bill for After Steering and the Nuclear Surety patrol (ASROC Roving Patrol). It still amazes me that I was only 22 at the time. I don't think I have ever had that much responsibility that quickly in any job since.

@mudducke8

Жыл бұрын

Spent many hours in after steering on the USS BIGELOW DD 942 in the mid to late 70's. Reported aboard as an FTG3, left and joined the Coast Guard as an FT2. retired in 96 as an FTCS.

@wilsonle61

Жыл бұрын

@@mudducke8 I always wished I had done the USCG transfer. Best kept secret. As it was I got out and went Army National Guard and finished up as a Major / 04.

i think now that you are in Dry Dock it would make a nice topic to revisit, because you can currently show it properly. just a thought.

Absolutely Positively!!! Is it recorder in the log book

Cool!

Can you upload the engine room video during the crash stop exercise? That looks like it would be really cool to watch with audio.

While I do not remember bringing CVA to a halt, as an MM, there were a number of casualty controls, and underway navigation procedures that involved using astern steam to control shaft speed. Throttleman, and typically GQ, sea detail, phones manned, etc. The machinery room activity during these operations was similar to flight ops, in terms of entire Steam propulsion plant going from zero to balls-out, Fast as you could, then do it some more, sometimes for hours at a time. Throttles was my GQ station, YankeeStation 1970

What was the procedure for synchronizing the rudders after this maneuver is done?

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

Center the rudders manually per the Rudder Angle Indicators, then shift back to electrical control. The Synchro Receivers on the Steering Gear will automatically synchronize with the Synchro Transmitters in the Helm Console. Assuming that the PMS (Planned Maintenance) on the Helm was done properly, if the Helm is at 0 Degrees, then the rudders will be at 0 degrees. Basically, if the helm is at Zero, then the Receivers on the hydraulic spool valves will also be at Zero. If the Rudder Angle is not at Zero, then the Synchro Receivers on the steering gear will be loosened and rotated until the rudders ARE at Zero, then tightened down....Much like setting Ignition Timing on a car by rotating the distributor. If the Synchro Receivers are not exactly following the Synchro Transmitters in the Helm, then you have other problems...The only purpose of a Synchro Pair is to have the shaft on the Receiver move in correspondence with the shaft on the Transmitter. If this is not the case, then you have either a wiring issue or a failed Synchro. Synchros are also used in the Engine Order, Prop Order, Gyro Repeaters, Wind Speed/Direction Indicators, etc. Synchros, limit switches, and Sound-Powered phones....The bane of my existence for 2-1/2 years shipboard.

@RustyorBroken

Жыл бұрын

@@kevincrosby1760 wow! I never imagined that I would get anywhere near this detailed of an answer. Thanks mister! Happy Veteran's Day. Thank you for serving so we can enjoy freedoms in this great country..

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

@@RustyorBroken I do tend to be a bit detail-oriented, sometimes to a fault. Thankfully, I work in an industry (Telecommunications) where being such is considered an asset. My service in the US Navy had its high points and low points, but overall I would do it again in a heartbeat.

@RustyorBroken

Жыл бұрын

@@kevincrosby1760 I just had a conversation with a shop guy and he said almost the same thing. He would do it again in a heartbeat. Only change he would make is to not get out. He jumped out of airplanes so you have to factor that into the equation. He might not be entirely right in the head. Ha!

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

​@@RustyorBroken I wouldn't trust that @kevincrosby1760, he's been known to hover over peoples faces while they sleep. He'd then position his donut right above your nose, rip' a " _full glute spread_ " , then wake you up with a loud noise. He's had 12 different men's noses up his ass in just the last 3 days, it's a jungle out there kiddo.

Crazy to think that the rudders alone weigh about as much as a modern MBT.

Just watched your video on the USS California and noted that the California and Tennessee's had turbo electric drive. After watching this video, it occurred to me that perhaps part of why reversing the engines ("crash stop" I think was the term used here) didn't make as big a difference in stopping distance as I would have expected (as opposed to modern ships with variable pitch propellers) would be due to the delay in actually reversing the shafts and winding down the turbines.... Would the turbo electric drive systems on the Tennessee's have been more responsive, since you wouldn't have to 'unwind' turbines and gearboxes before putting reverse torque on the propeller shafts? Given that the Tennessee's were 33% slower than the Iowas, maybe crash stopping performance could be compared in terms relative to normal stopping distance?

out at sea, i cant imagine it would be seen as a good idea very often. better to remain at speed and dodge. also seems like a terrible strain on the rudders, cant even imagine the forces involved. probably one of those things for saved for a dire last ditch effort, especially as you talked about, more seen as something for during sea and anchor detail along the lines of dropping an anchor for the drag. but it would still need to be on the books and covered in training to be available. if you could narrow the date ranges, would wisconson's logs have the info?

on the mine sweep i was the rudders were locked to one stearing gear we did have variable pitch propellers and from full ahead to full back the fantail would buck hard and you could feel it throughout the ship. we had just two double throw toggle switches in the pilot house that controlled the pitch, and you could go full ahead to full back in about 30 sec. we had one senior chief petty officer that was qualified as a OOD. He had been on navy mine sweep boats as boat captain and was very good at running the smaller mine sweeps so they made him a OOD so they had a extra OOD. plus in a emergency because we only had 5 officers and 6 in port watches he was in charge of one of the in port watches and we trained in a emergency the duty watch could get the ship underway and out to sea.. These emergencies were tsunamis or a attack on the US.

I'd think with all that momentum the rudders would be bent or damaged.

@robertf3479

Жыл бұрын

I think that's the damage Wisconsin probably suffered.

@larchman4327

Жыл бұрын

@@robertf3479 I made comment before watching. No I mean like really damaged

@ZGryphon

Жыл бұрын

Well, as the example of _Wisconsin_ demonstrates, it wasn't something you wanted to do very _often,_ for sure. I imagine it helped that WWII battleships were overbuilt to a significant degree. In a modern ship, where everything is designed to be exactly as strong as it needs to be and no more in order to manage costs... well, best of luck. (Then again, modern ships probably have more sophisticated tricks.)

@mandowarrior123

Жыл бұрын

As opposed to a hard turn of any kind? That's exactly what rudders are designed for. I'd expect any issues to be due to the rudders housing trying to separate from each other but- it is a battleship, it should be able to take it, even if half of whatever it is is missing.

@thedyingtitan1247

Жыл бұрын

@@ZGryphon its called variable pitch propellers, you don’t need to go reverse when you can at the flip of a switch go from full ahead to full astern in 2 seconds without needing to drop power output or anything.

Retired Coastie with four assignments to the 378 foot cutters, underway EOW (Engineer Officer of the Watch) on all. Two two-stroke diesels, which make maximum horsepower at highest rpm, two gas turbines, and CPP (Controllable Pitch Propellers). Crash stop procedure, assuming it came from EOTs (Engine Order Telegraphs): Pull pitch handles full astern. Pitch wrong-direction interlock will ramp the online engines to idle. Turn on servo “B” hydraulic pumps to make the pitch change faster. As the pitch servo hydraulic pumps on the reduction gears, called attached pumps, are always turning when an engine is clutched in a solenoid-controlled valve usually dumps those pump outputs back to the reduction gear sumps. Turn those solenoids off so the attached pumps help speed up the pitch change. Answer the EOTs. Shift engine controls from Checkout, where pitch handles control both pitch and engine speed, to Command, where pitch handles control pitch and separate rheostats control engine speed. Run engine speeds to maximum. They will speed up when the pitch wrong-direction interlock allows the engines to speed up. You should stop in two ship’s lengths. If on Main Gas Turbines at flank bell you have about 37,000 hp propulsion being balanced by 37,000 hp of hull resistance. Even with the reaction times of Throttleman and machinery you likely still have 20,000 hp hull resistance remaining when the turbines are providing 37,000 hp astern. Diesels have less hp but you’re also starting with less speed. CWO4 Main Propulsion Assistant, retired. As are those ships.

The DDG I was on (USS Robison DDG 12) had 2 rudders that were mechanically linked by a single, double ended hydraulic ram. At 4500 tons we could stop fast with the right MM on throttles. A crash back on my ship was a violent event, a lot of shuddering and anything not secured would go flying. Our power to weight ratio was pretty high with 70,000 shaft horse power.

i would also think closing the barn doors would also generate a lot of vibration. i would think a great volume of water would be forced downward skipping under the rudder blades generating a lot of upward force on the stern. even if you didnt get a lot of centripetal force pushing the dishes forward, im sure thered be a lot of shaking. if it was done, im pretty sure theyd want to capture it on video.

@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus

Жыл бұрын

" centripetal force "? no one is going in a circle here.

@thurin84

Жыл бұрын

@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus i meant inertial force and had a brainfart. i supposed its never happened to you?

@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935

Жыл бұрын

Dynamic pressure on the rudders would be about 123,000 Pa, about 1.2 times atmospheric pressure.

@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus

Жыл бұрын

@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 Did you work that pressure out statically or dynamically? Did you consider uneven vortex shedding? Did you account for the reversed props lowering the pressure in front of the rudders? 35 knots is about 18m/s giving a dynamic pressure in water of ~160 kPa. How did you come up with 123 kPa? If I had to calculate the pressure on the rudders in this situation, I would want a fast computer and some good simulation software. Even then I wouldn't trust the answer more than plus or minus 50%.

@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935

Жыл бұрын

@@fantabuloussnuffaluffagus 30

Seems like 'barn door full open' both rudders full out opposite would give similar drag with lower potential over stress, and quicker return to steering position

Could the barn door stop been tested on either the North Carolina or South Dakota class ?

Yes we closed the barn doors in 1990 before went up the Columbia River

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

Ah, the Portland Rose Festival when sailors were still welcomed to Portland. I was there in '88 and '89. Every time I went to pay for a meal or a bar tab, I was told that some total stranger had already covered it. The ONLY time you would see sailors willingly hit the beach in Dress Blues. Fast forward to 2022. Now I'm almost afraid to exit off the freeway in Portland. The homeless and druggies have pretty much taken over.

4 screws at back emergency should add far more drag than the rudders at 35deg. The turbulence from inboard screws in back full or back emergency would hamper the amount of added drag from the rudders. If it wasn’t done during commissioning sea trials on any of them it’s doubtful it was ever done. Surely would be a “hold my beer” event

@russellhltn1396

Жыл бұрын

It seems the problem is reversing the props takes time (and time is distance).

@The7humpwump

Жыл бұрын

@@russellhltn1396 back when I was a throttleman we could go from ahead flank to back emergency in a matter of seconds. All it takes is spinning the ahead wheel closed and then opening the astern throttle. For man overboard you slam the ahead closed as fast as you can then open the astern to stop the shaft applying sufficient steam to hold the shaft from spinning. Did that in less than 10 seconds from ahead flank and I wasn’t very good. I was training one guy and he did it in about 5 seconds. Stopped the shaft before the engine room supervisor got back to look.

@mandowarrior123

Жыл бұрын

Incorrect assumption- rudders would increase the relative performance of the screws by the same token- it will direct the intake and result in higher velocity thrust. All you're saying by drag reduction is it would be pretty safe to do in reverse compared to regular rudder use under power, as rudder drag is essentially strain on the rudder.

@seafodder6129

Жыл бұрын

@@The7humpwump Sounds like you're talking about stop and lock casualty control training rather than answering a BEM bell...

Should probably pull the established titles ad from this one too

Those rudders are around 7/10 the footage of my _house_

"Close the barn doors" The sea cow between them: **squish**

Oh, no! Established Titles got you, too.

Not all twin-rudder ships can operate the rudders separately. I was on two LSDs in the 70s and 80s, both twin screw, twin rudder. The rudders are both linked to a double-ended ram in After Steering. One ram, both rudders. I believe a similar system was used on destroyers.

@sukhoifockewulf9371

11 ай бұрын

I was also on LSD in the 80s and those sailor boys were always on the lookout for their next *_double-ended ram in_* and if you weren't real careful, 10-20 of them would swarm ya and DO DAMAGE on that turd cutter, I tell ya what.

From the Naval Institute Press article "The ship is powerful, graceful, and fun to drive."

Fascinating......

Look Iowa class i understand that for a big Momma they were pretty swift for there size 😮 once up to speed .

Could you imagine being the captain of an Iowa class Battleship and running it aground…. Ugh man. When I was in Iraq we played a prank on some 88M (truck drivers) and move the truck and we rolled it. I was about to be in a lot of trouble but got out of it because our battalion messed up and I just got tower duty for 30 days. But running a battleship aground… damn man.

I find the quoted distance of 200yds hard to believe… there is a maneuver called the “S-stop” where you cycle the rudder from hard over to hard over back and forth while backing down full. This maneuver is know to reduce straight line stopping distance by about 1/3 from the just crash astern distance. So, I would estimate that this maneuver would be about the same, to slightly better, so that would be 1000-1300 yards. Still impressive.

@ColonelSandersLite

Жыл бұрын

My natural inclination is to think that, if turning was an option, you would just want to just go hard rudder in whichever direction you can and take advantage of all the drag from the water hitting the side of the ship. Thinking about it more though, the force that the rudder imparts is the limiting factor on rate of turn and thus drag so the rudder has to be able to provide an equivalent force right? Equal and opposite forces and all that. If I'm correct about that, then closing the barn doors *should* be pretty substantially better than an s-stop but how much better depends on how quickly the rudder can physically alternate from stop to stop. With the barn door maneuver, the rudder stays at maximum drag the whole time. With an s-stop, the rudder spends time repeatedly cycling between full drag and (nearly) no drag. Also thinking about it, I suspect that the story about the rudders leaking from the forces involved in trying the maneuver is BS. The rudder shouldn't be sustaining more force during this maneuver than it does during any other maximum rudder maneuver.

@stephenbritton9297

Жыл бұрын

@@ColonelSandersLite You are correct, if you can turn away, that is always the BEST option and has the least downrange distance. In an S-turn, the cycling happens so fast (relatively speaking given how fast larger rudders turn) that your actually heading may only change 10deg or so each side of your base course, so your actual width taken up by the ship may only be 2-3 ship widths. if that makes sense. Finally, as for damage to the rudder seals, I'm inclined to believe it was possible, but likely fixable in the next drydocking. In the 1980's (if memory serves) the 73k deadweight tanker (900ft long) ARCO TEXAS was performing a MOB drill while fully laden and at full sea speed. The helm was placed hard over to 35deg, and the hydrodynamic forces SNAPPED the rudder off!

@Thomasnmi

Жыл бұрын

Is that what is called twisting?

@stephenbritton9297

Жыл бұрын

@@Thomasnmi I’ve never heard it called that, but can’t say it’s never been called that…

@Thomasnmi

Жыл бұрын

@@stephenbritton9297 I would definitely rely on your experience then. :)

Can you have each screw go opposite each other and turn the ship? One forward and the other backwards? Like turning the ship within it's length?

@kainhall

Жыл бұрын

it would probably help...... but the ship is SO long VS the distance between the props.... i dont think it would help MUCH! . a measurable difference? sure..... but only a few feet..... not 100s of feet

@Jimorian

Жыл бұрын

This will help with turning radius while moving, but if the ship is stopped, the screws being at one end are really at a mechanical disadvantage of having an effect to turn the entire ship. I could imagine it taking an entire day to work if it's even possible.

@kevincrosby1760

Жыл бұрын

@@Jimorian You'd be surprised. That's exactly how a ship leaves the pier without tugs to assist.

@WaterMan416

Жыл бұрын

It's absolutely a way to steer a multi screw ship if there's a complete loss of steering, but it's not quite as nimble.

Great video. Just wondering, at 4:35 , what are those things welded to the hull? They look almost like lengths of chain but I assume that's not it.

@danielharman130

Жыл бұрын

Zinc anodes, used to protect the hull from rust. You can find more information if you search cathodic protection. Also, Practical Engineering has a good video on this if you're interested.

@peterhoulihan9766

Жыл бұрын

@@danielharman130 Ah! Those are anodes? I'm used to boats just having two or three of them, then again I never worked on a boat with a giant steel hull.

@danielharman130

Жыл бұрын

@@peterhoulihan9766 yeah, large ships usually have a lot by the stern to protect the propellors

@peterhoulihan9766

Жыл бұрын

@@danielharman130 Gotcha. Lotsa tasty brass for the electrons to munch.

excellent discussion of a special case..stop the ship!

Does anyone have a link to the Officer of the Deck Driver’s Manual?

@BattleshipNewJersey

Жыл бұрын

Its in the video description as the Naval Insitute Press article

I would imagine that its extremely hard on the steering gear to put the rudders in the position when underway.

@mytmousemalibu

Жыл бұрын

The load against the rudders, rudder posts/bearings, steering gear, and hull structure in that area must be staggering! It would be very cool to have had strain guages on things to see what kind of load was on parts in various configurations. Same for the turrets & guns!

Was this Barndoor Stop in 200yrds, from what speed supposedly? Full Ahead?

I know some ship types with twin rudders couldn't pull off the barn doors maneuver. This would be due to them being sistered to a single steering gear and thereby are unable to move separately. But assuming a twin rudder setup has individual gear and controls for each rudder there is no real reason they couldn't move in separate directions which is of course required for such a maneuver.

With all of these systems that have redundancy, how is priority determined? For example, if steering is happening at multiple locations, what does the ship do?

@lordsherifftakari4127

Жыл бұрын

if memory serves Rudder Control is primary from the ship's Bridge during most operation. all other positions for Steering Control are backups in the event the Bridge is taken out or otherwise disabled. under Battle conditions, control is likely moved into the Armored Conning Tower and the upper Bridge cleared since it's really not well protected from incoming Shellfire. the Aft Steering Control Stations shown in the video are the "last Resort" means to control the ship if power is lost since the aft station has a direct mechanical connection to operate the Rudders. who is driving the ship is determined by Command order indicating which position "Has Control" by the order Steering to only the location so indicated has control to turn the ship, all other positions, while manned are "Hand's Off" until the order is given changing who has steering control. Aft Steering in particular has the locking lug on the Wheel Hub which unless ordered is in the "Disengaged" position meaning that even if the wheel is turned, nothing will happen as the linkage is not connected. the wheel will just spin freely. all Sailors are trained from the start to obey the lawful orders given by their superiors. for Steering the ship. only the person at the station ordered has operational authorization to act on maneuver orders and turn the ship. the others just stand ready to assume control upon command. each Steering Station has an Officer in charge to oversee that location. anyone other than the authorized person attempting to change the ship's course outside of a direct command will be swiftly removed to the Brig and a rather uncomfortable talk with the Captain!

@JoshuaTootell

Жыл бұрын

The selector wheel will determine which remote location takes control. But the controls can be over ridden from after steering, it just wouldn't happen unless ordered though.

I don’t _trust_ oral history either, but I _enjoy_ the local scuttlebutt… sometime it’s good gouge, sometimes it’s a spun yarn. Regardless, it supports the 4th rule of tankers: You’re responsible for your own entertainment! 😂