I would argue in certain situations it is important to remove card draw engines because for certain decks it’s not possible to interact with your opponents wincon

The best feeling is holding a counter spell, not having to use it and playing a draw spell at the last players end step.

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

The best feeling is actually not having to include counterspell hate on your deck because the rest of your play group is responsible with their permission.

I only run more removal to make sure I have it in hand when I need it. Don’t counter the Tutor, counter what they find. You counter the tutor they can still find what they need to win. Don’t remove their resources to get to their win con. Remove their win con. My mono white angels has 8 single target versatile set of removal and 2 versatile board wipes

@dustinjackson8270

5 ай бұрын

It depends if I have fierce guardianship in hand and they try to tutor for a creature say worldly tutor or anything that gets a creature I can not counter the piece they would get counter what you feel would be a hindrance to you and your game plan we don’t have answers for every card so sometimes countering the piece to go get it is okay too

@bohemianprince7944

27 күн бұрын

Sometimes I would counter the tutor. If my friend is going for his Dark Depths Thespian stage combo, it's one of the only ways outside a Journey to Nowhere.

I honestly think that “blood moon” might be an auto-include in mono-red decks not so much because of its power, but because it is a removal magnet that ensures that you will have less removal to work through when you will actually develop your board.

@scottricks1676

8 ай бұрын

I vibe with this ideal. I actually run some “lighting rode” cards that sole reason are to make ppl waste removal.

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

Scary how often you can substitute Blood Moon with "any creature with power 5 or greater".

@scottricks1676

7 ай бұрын

@@zbaschtian not sure I follow?

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

@@scottricks1676 bad threat assessment can take a lot of forms. One of the most basic is big, seemingly threatening stats, to the point I'd argue that it's better to see utility effects on 2/2 bodies than on 5/5s simply because the 5/5 is more likely to get randomly Doom Bladed. In practice the stat line matters very little unless a player is already low on life or the group is keen on running toughness-based sweepers, but it takes a while for some players to start recognizing the smaller creature as the actual threat. See Esper Sentinel, Bowmasters, Tymna, etc.

@scottricks1676

7 ай бұрын

@@zbaschtian ah yes, absolutely agree!

Idk man you might want to blowup the rhystic study if you can lol, sometimes card advantage is what really wins the game

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

no card advantage if you pay your taxes!

@Blacklodge_Willy

8 ай бұрын

​@@CommanderMechanicsurely there's an exception right. Endstep nature's claim on a Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe and other such cards are at least equal to paying for the tax at least once.

@NeverLuckyE7

8 ай бұрын

My friends never pay taxes so I have to remove the rhystic study :(

@seanedgar164

4 ай бұрын

​@@Blacklodge_Willy100% tithe goes, playing through study is possible if everyone is ok with taxes

Also, make sure your removal is synergistic with the rest of your deck. Four mana sorcery speed murder sounds really bad, but Ravenous Chupacabra is great in aristocrat decks. Sometimes "worse" cards are better.

so basically, don't necessarily play more removal, but have better threat assessment.

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

thats the jist of it! also, don't run more removal, run better removal and more ways to draw it.

@fidibus4290

8 ай бұрын

@@CommanderMechanic I think a lot of bad vibes comes from people having different views on what the threat is. I think it's really important to communicate with your opponents before using your removal. questions like "how do we handle this?" can help everyone at the table to get an idea what really is a threat. Also it's an experience you only get in commander. discussing which way the gameplay developes without revealing too much about your own position in the process.

Folks will say they need more removal so they can be sure to have it when they need it. But what they really need is more card draw! 9 times out of 10 I’d rather put in an extra piece of draw than an extra piece of ramp, removal, etc.

I think remove directly a value piece is not a bad play. I will have less threats to answer after and he is less likely to draw protection. I consider it as the same value as a board wipe. That why people remove rustic study. If you cast sire of stagnation as 6 drop hoping to refill your hand, i removed it for max 3 mana you are time warp and out of the game. The downside of doing that is the fellbad moment for the player

One good point in here was: Knowing when to use removal is more important having more removal. Also lower cost removal is better than higher cost removal, but I would also counter a 6 drop that will put my opponent 6 cards ahead by my turn. Lol the 'why would you counter a stax piece?' line was funny. Drawing cards wins games remove the things that draw cards. Overall a bad take on removal if you play at anything above a precon level.

@guyatanosavia8487

7 ай бұрын

Idk, if your opponent is running something like Rhystic then removing it won't do as much as you might anticipate. They want card draw which means they will have card draw all throughout the deck. Wasting removal on one of many draw engines isn't going to put them back far enough to be worth the opportunity cost of removing an actual combo piece or something like a Craterhoof coming to smash your face in Now some combos aren't easy to interact with, but in my opinion you would probably know about those and have some specific tech in sideboards for when you go up against those decks at your LGS or in your pods. I personally can't stand running more than like 5 pieces of removal in decks that aren't control heavy because it's boring to build the same basic utility belt for every deck. I'll make an exception for things like Sunforger packages or some other cool interaction piece, but honestly it's not worth it in most cases. Why would I want to draw removal #8 when I could have slotted in a combo piece instead? Or a real threat that's proactive rather than reactive. Which brings me to my third thing: being proactive is almost always better than being reactive. This is true in 1v1 formats, but it's ESPECIALLY the case in a format where you get 1/4 of the turn order pie. Your stuff is going to get removed and dealt with, you have to anticipate that. In that instance building with redundancy/protective permanents is usually stronger than building with counters or removal because you always want to get in the lead and keep it. It's easier to boost one players gameplan (yourself) than it is to tear down 3 players gameplans (your opponents). Especially if you consider that they probably have ways to react to your reaction. If you suspect a Thoracle/LabMan then either try to kill that player asap or save your counters for the actual drops. Bonus points: it's so satisfying watching someone play thoracle just to have it answered

@xCobrazzzx

7 ай бұрын

@@guyatanosavia8487 Yes Rhystic study isn't a game finisher in terms of a combo piece, but if someone is using their resources for it especially on turn 1 or 2, it's a great target for removal. It also depends on your level of play. A rhystic study in a 5-6 power pod where it's value.deck may not get out of hand, but I don't take chances on that. Letting someone get 4-10 cards for 3 mana by their turn is too much value and their chances of comboing off or outvaluing is higher. You make some points for 1v1, but the video is specifically about commander where removal is a must unless you just want to lose craterhoof etc. Also removal is one part of interaction and the video could have been better about describing having a good amount of interaction is more important than only removal, but it doesn't. In the shop I play at, the skill level and deck powers are notoriously high and removal is a must. Also, wide generalizations for commander is bad practice in general and you should build towards your meta. This video does a really poor job at that. My competitive decks are control-themed where my casual decks are all over the place in terms of themes, but all of them run the best interactions in their colors.

@guyatanosavia8487

7 ай бұрын

@xCobrazzzx I made a single point about 1v1 and it was there to emphasize the point also applying to Commander but to an even greater degree. Interaction isn't necessarily emoval, and I think running more interaction in your deck is always a good idea. Straight removal though? You want to be really choosey with removal pieces. Again, why would I want to top deck *removal* #8 when it could have been a combo piece I put into my deck instead? Or something more proactive? Interaction can be proactive, removal is a specific kind of interaction that is only reactive (and this includes counterspells). Actually, a weird example of this is using Teferi's Protection to prevent end of turn triggers from going off on your board that you don't want (Persist, Unearth, etc) so even some fog-like effects can be proactive.

@xCobrazzzx

7 ай бұрын

@@guyatanosavia8487 Sorry for the specific dig at the difference of 1v1 to commander. I run around 10-16 pieces of interaction with like 50-70% being hard removal with some wipes for casual decks. The others are like counters, teferi's, protection, etc. and many of the permanents in the deck are some form of removal or protection depending on the theme. But I like to run a lot, and in a four person game, most removal isn't dead in hand unless you are playing low power level pods. It all depends on your meta. Most of the removal in my deck is built through weeks and weeks of games and learning what I lose to most frequently and evolving the deck to the meta. Also, most interaction is like "this keeps me from losing the game" where value pieces are like "this gets me one step closer" I don't need redundant pieces, I need to survive long enough to win with my grindy decks.

@guyatanosavia8487

7 ай бұрын

@xCobrazzzx Fair enough, although some decks require redundancy like mill/reanimation decks. I totally agree about the meta stuff, though. And I personally like to carry a sideboard of deck tweaks/answers to certain things for my pet decks that I can swap out to match power level (or in some cases so I don't get hard countered by someone else). I tend to build things that are a little overly tuned compared to my pods, so it's nice to have redundant value pieces in the side to swap in over combos or certain cards that people just don't have answers to frequently. That and of course I can cut out some ramp if it won't outright kill me

“Go down to 33 lands for that 10th piece of removal” wow I feel personally attacked how did u know I did that yesterday…

"Versitility beats volume" is so true. You have to be able to deal with a variety of threats in commander. That being said, "run more removal" is still good advice for new players who will often run no removal, or maybe throw in 1 or 2. Being able to stop your opponents from winning the game or to just deal with the one person who is targetting you (or to just threaten removal in order to get them to target someone else) is important for you to be able to win the game yourself. The exact number varies from deck to deck of course, but I agree with the sentiment that it isn’t your responsibility to deal with every threat and that you need wincons & card draw just as much, if not more, than removal.

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

TBH I'd rather have some people play zero removal and focus entirely on their interactions, than having the option and disrupting the flow of the game through incorrect threat assessment. There is a bit of a learning curve to playing removal effectively, and hitting the wrong stuff will not only not help you win, but annoy the rest of the table and paint a target on your back.

@WarpsmithAdam

7 ай бұрын

@zbaschtian hitting the wrong stuff is part of the learning process, though. You've got to hit the wrong stuff a few times & realize that if you'd saved it, you'd be better off, in order to learn when the right time to use it is. "I won because I got to stick this value engine & accrue lots of value off by protecting it, while preventing you from getting to get value off of your value engine," is a pretty common thing that I hear after games when experienced players play against new players. If people aren't playing ways to disrupt each other, why not just hang out with friends and all goldfish decks next to each other while talking about the sweet decks that everyone made? Personally, I like games with a lot of back & forth between the players, and having people playing a decent number of removal spells & boardwipes achieves that goal.

I also think utility lands can go a long way for people. There are so many good ones out there. People often dismiss them. The modal lands that are also spells can add a nice dynamic without really having to cut something.

These points are some of the best lessons to learn about playing control decks in general. Even in 1v1 formats you sometimes don't need to answer everything immediately. Also. Putting Godsire in between Craterhoof and Moonshaker Cavalry is *Chef's Kiss*.

Another helpful tip for removal I have is find the niche cases your deck enjoys! An example is vandalblast. Many people default to it as one of the first options in a red deck because it's one mana for an artifact or five for all other artifacts. But, if you've got red in your aristocrats style deck, try Ingot Chewer! It's evoke is the same cost as vandalblast, and it gives you a thing to sac to something else real quick, or even just gives you another zulaport/artist/garna trigger :)

Thank you for this video! Even though I've started to gain a subtle grasp on some of these principles through trial and error, it's wonderful to see them all spelled out and explained logically. A definite recommend for any edh deckbuilder out there, new or old!

I fully agree, on average ill run around 5-8 removels in my commander decks. Bacause i found that they attend to be dead cards until they're needed. And in my play group, we normally play with mid to low power commander decks. So removal isn’t as needed as other things like draw, ramp, and fun janky cards.

@hanschristopherson8056

8 ай бұрын

In causal you really don’t want multiple removal cards in your opening hand

There are 3 points I think this video missed that are also important to remember: 1. One common time "Run more Removal" or "Just Play more Removal" comes from an assumption based on little info. If I make a post on reddit, discord, etc and it is like "My table ganged up on me by all going after me aggressively..." the response of "RmR" is them ASSUMING that I "didn't have enough to deal with that aggression..." Well, no. If I have 12 removal spells, I don't have all of them at once and if I get attacked 3 turns in a row by Phyrexian Hydra, followed by Putrefax, followed by Fynn and 3 deathtouch creatures to KO me... I can't remove all of that AND survive... unless my hand is nearly ALL removal spells. No deck can reliably hold off 3 other decks all the time. 2. The second is people who say that are assuming that everyone wants to play at a "more optimized" level of play... I once saw someone comment on a reddit post entitled something to the effect of "Why don't you run more removal" with "Because I don't want to, you can't make me, and I probably have more fun than you." And a person responded "Well, then prepare to get stomped..." Instead of making it about the GAME, they made the argument PERSONAL. (A personal attack based on a gameplay style preference) 3. And the biggest point is some commander spaces online (and I would argue the general commander sphere) have CULTIVATED a "run more removal" attitude. I know of one play space that has in their rules "If you think you have enough removal, think again and add like 5 or 6 more pieces..." Which doesn't actually make a deck better, it makes it more homogenized. Which goes back to point #2.

Great video! I feel always like 3 mana is so much to hold up, but playing against a serras sanctum today maybe changed my mind :D

I've found more players seem to have problems with threat identification than they do with amount of removal. smart removal of win conditions/advantage engines is way better than removing someone's big creature that you could chump block for 5 turns

In CEDH, we play answers like removal and counterspells only to answer combos and win cons or break stax pieces to go off and win through stax. Decks of that power level can afford to run a bit more sloppily and loosely to be as resource and mana efficient as possible. That’s how you play at the highest level of power and even casual level play can learn a lot from that.

@InmAncalagon

8 ай бұрын

We definitely also use removal on value engines. A Rhystic Study will very often win the game if left unchecked.

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

@@InmAncalagon value engines tend to be higher priority targets on CEDH because they can get out of hand quicker and/or dig into a game-ending combo, and it's usually better to just play your own value engine and keep up than to waste a valuable removal piece on the wrong target. I'd argue against reflexively removing value engines at lower power levels, especially if they're attached to Commanders and/or are not part of an imminent combo. The removal economy is about the same, and you do not have to worry as much about them drawing into a game-ending spell they can cast right now. I'd most definitely not play removal against slower value engines such as Phyrexian Arena or Smothering Tithe 99% of the time. For a lot of engines, context matters a lot. A late Rhystic or Mystic Remora when players are low on cards and no one is relying on a noncreature value loop can often be left alone despite the cards' reputation. An Ad Nauseam or Necro can be allowed to resolve if they're low on life and cards. A Chulane, Jodah or Tatyova with cards in hand is likely a lot more threatening and needs either an immediate answer or keeping interaction up on the following turns despite them having command zone redundancy.

@InmAncalagon

7 ай бұрын

@@zbaschtian What are you even talking about? Phyrexian Arena? Who plays that in cEDH? And you bet I'll spend a counter or removal on an early Rhystic Study or One Ring in the vast majority of situations, possibly also on a Fish or Esper Sentinel depending on the pod and my hand. Anything else would be stupid.

@InmAncalagon

7 ай бұрын

@@zbaschtian Also Ad Naus is not a value engine. It's a wincon and should be treated as such.

I basically only use removal to protect my strategy OR if it's part of the strategy (ex: tergrid). Sometimes there are times where something on the board is obviously going to cause huge problems very quickly or soon, but those are relatively uncommon for me. I usually let other players burn their removal for those haha

@guyatanosavia8487

7 ай бұрын

Jared Carthalion, True Heir: the guy who eats literal fault lines and earthquakes for breakfast and spits them in your opponents face for lethal. Any reanimator: *laughs in damnation* Group Hug: Don't worry guys, I know I helped the Naya player get way ahead but it's cool. I'll just keep wiping his board until you guys can catch up! (This is mostly satire) Chaos: hehe, random go *brrrrr*

One thing people mention rarely, is that "playing more removal" is just an unwinnable arms race that leads to long, boring, drawn out games where nothing exciting ever happens. If everyone at your table is running 15 to 20 removal pieces, but each player has say, around 10 things in their deck that really make big plays, well, you can do the math.... Everything gets removed, 8 board wipes go off, and somebody ends up dying to chip damage on turn 27 and the games been going on for 3 hours. I'm a much bigger fan of seeing peoples decks actually play out. A few roadblock removals here and there, maybe a boardwipe or two, and someone wins on turn 10-12 still. Lower removal in a pod leads to quicker games, which leads to more games, and no one at the table is sweating on a 120% efficiency 45 piece interaction suite. Edit: also its just a low skill band aid.

@seanedgar164

4 ай бұрын

Calling it a "low skill bandaid" is unfair. I'm a well experienced player who has chosen to play low power. We have "that one player" who pretty exclusively runs bombs that win games, think 'everyone is on single digits by turn 5 or 6'. Literally. Myself and the rest of our pod doesn't want to do the same or try race him, so the answer is to keep him in check

I run about 12 pieces of interaction, by interaction I also include evasion to interaction like Heroic Intervention.

Thank you for this video! Much needed and very well explained.

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

I'm a big fan of tax or sac effects. The Rishiden pirates are a good example. I always ask "what else can this card do?" Remove the big threats create other problems to deal with the board. Sure i can't remove everything, but i can make it hard to keep certian things Do you wanna sac a permanent or pay the 2? Then remove the things that are a problem. Be that itch that you cannot get!

Normally the people being told to run more removal aren’t running enough that they might have an answer when needed.

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

then they don't need to run more removal, they need to run more card draw.

@Isheian

8 ай бұрын

@@CommanderMechanic That’s an option. I’ve sat in many games where people have lost due to not having or being able to draw into an answer/ removal spell. I have some decks that are removal light and others that are running a lot more removal. In general my removal light decks end up being lower powered or super focused on player removal. The decks with more removal tend to be more flexible, more able to control the flow of the game. You are 100% correct on poor threat assessment being rampant. Removing an annoying piece rather than a game ending threat happens far too often. I’d say modal cards that can provide a removal option or a advantage option would help, more card draw to be sure, and running a few more removal pieces overall would improve most decks.

I feel like for mana efficiency, tempo, and card advantage talking about mana sinks in this discussion is very important. Sometimes you have 3 mana open, it’s late game and you don’t know if someone is about to plop down a finisher. If you can sink that mana into something, then keeping up removal and not using a card is much more plausible due to the flexibility you have if you realize you don’t need that removal. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve waited to either activate Jade Mage in my tokens deck or play a Beast Within, and the apprehension of the possibility of said Beast Within makes me joyous playing Jade Mage. Gods help you if you find a Scholar of Athreos in an Orzhov deck.

Great video, edhrecast also recently made a video discussing why just play more removal isn’t a helpful argument

My Kykar deck has 9 pieces of instant speed removal because playing those also gets me a 1/1 spirit lol my other decks usually run 3-5

5:40 is rhystic not worth removing tho? if nobody pays (like happens in some playgroups) rhystic "wins the game"?

@CommanderMechanic

5 ай бұрын

it's almost like if everyone pays then it does nothing and isn't worth removing, right?

@seanedgar164

4 ай бұрын

​@@CommanderMechanic there's always that one player. Had an ob nix kingpin deck try storm off into an urza deck 2 turns in a row. He was shocked urza had so many good plays after 🤦🏼‍♂️

All that said, some people should run more removal. I used to play with this guy who would always whine about folks powerful cards, but literally ran no removal. He was the only person I've ever non-jokingly told "you need to run more removal" 😅 Personally I think people should run more fog effects, and mass protection spells. Usually pretty easy to keep mana up for, and can easily blow someone out of the game.

Only play removal on things that directly impact your board state or game plan or is a piece of wincon for an opponent. Rarely you can politic into something by removing a problem and making a deal with another player.

You don't need answers when your deck is full of problems :D

"Let them have that rhystic study" I am sorry, what, in a Cedh pod, one of the best cards to be playing is rhystic study, since everyone will be vomiting fast mana, draw spells and free interaction. Even more so since in cedh, drawing 20 cards means you are very likely to straight up win next turn, sure, it is not a wincondition on its won, but it does provide the fast mana, tutors and counterspell backup to win, so better remove it.

@CommanderMechanic

Ай бұрын

cedh is not what is being discussed here thanks, that's made clear in the video.

@jaceg810

Ай бұрын

@@CommanderMechanic "lets look at high powered commander" 5:05 Showing examples of najeela (presumably combo) and mana crypt. Thus I assume it is very optimized / cedh. When decks are high power, and casting a lot of free spells, letting them get away with near unlimited card advantage is something that helps them win.

What do you think the sweet spot is for number of targeted removal spells? Some decks may inherently want more because of a niche strategy, but if you had to put a pin on it - what's your number?

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

4-7 in most of my decks. of those, 4 will be able to hit just about everything. 2 will be board wipes and 1-2 will be narrow removal.

@farwatergg2428

8 ай бұрын

@CommanderMechanic Hell yeah, thanks for the breakdown

One sided board wipes are my removal

Running the right removal not more removal.

Lost count of how many times I've seen someone spend removal on a long-term value piece or something without immediate board impact, then have no play when the game-winning cards start hitting the board. Nine times out of ten, that mana rock or Endless Horizons is really not worth burning your only Disenchant effect. Unless they're going to draw a very large number of cards, you do not want to counter their card draw spell; save it for the one relevant piece they drew. Learn to threat assess correctly, and the rest of the table will like you better, regardless of the game's outcome. Don't be the guy who could've stopped the infinite combo but didn't because that irrelevant piece of Stax REALLY rubbed you the wrong way two games ago.

@zbaschtian

7 ай бұрын

Gave up on a play group recently because of piss-poor threat assessment. They always had an answer for the first resolved Sol Ring, but never for the game-ending combo piece that hit two turns later. It led to two things: power creep (people dropped slower utility for faster payoffs and more reliable combos), and toxic social interactions (grudges between games, unwarranted archenemy relationships, spite moves). None of them are bad people; they just didn't realize how disruptive their play patterns were and did not care to improve, so I decided to cut my losses and look for a more balanced group.

Idk about letting them have that rhystic study

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

its a joke. but you can let them have that rhystic study as long as people will pay for it!

Commander Mechanic basically said "'Run more removal' is wrong b/c 'skill issue.'"

i play tons of red removal is my wincon

JUND EM OUT

Clone Zone

Idk about kind of a lot of these takes. Now, I only play and really only have ever played cedh but I think you should state “I’m not talking about when you are trying to build the strongest deck or trying to win as often as you can” then you should just consider that statement and that you were about to give strategic advice about how to play when not truly trying very hard and then let your mind really marinate in the cognitive dissonance and just play edh. And I think most people would call Edh cedh. So, “when in Rome”, just play cedh. Or at least leave discussions about strategy and attempting to win to the “cedh” arena. Summary; if you mean cedh then a lot of this is incorrect. If you mean “a version of edh where people intentionally don’t build powerful decks and aren’t actually trying to win” then I don’t think it makes sense to give strategic advice on it.

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

I specifically make reference in the video that this is about casual edh, and refer to cedh separately for strategic inclusions and learnings. Hopefully that's clear in the video but it seems it may have been missed.

well if i run 3 removal cards ill see them once every 4 games so whats even the fucking point

Playing a board wipe every turn is a lot of fun. It’s basically taking a turn. If I play a land and slow everyone else I’m up. Removal is good and you should be running upward of 10 pieces if you want to win. Commander is a social format and you should play in the way that is the most fun but it is strategy advantages to run a lot of removal

That lovely lady in the thumbnail has such a manly voice.

Good video but one note re: decimate. You can't pick and choose with it which is why it's actually kind of a bad card. If you don't have an artifact, creature, enchantment, AND land you want to target, then you cannot cast the spell at all. Board states where there's something of all of those to bonk without having to zap your own stuff aren't as common as you'd think .

I do not think you need to remove everything, only something that hinders you way more than all other opponent's (early game), something that kills you or something that makes your opponent win. However to consistently be able to deal with this I think you need 11-15 interaction cards (removal and protection and in-between at instant speed) at the power level I play at slightly above Pre con.

I feel like the sire of stagnation point if not very solid, draw engines are a lot more important to remove because if they stay on board their controller can draw not only more threats but also protection for hte threats already in play, so yeah, kill the sire

I usually run between 10 and 20 pieces of removal, I think there is no real formula for the right amount. The decks with 10 pieces of removal run as smooth as the ones with 20. Some guys in my playgroup run like 2 or 3 removal cards in their deck and also do fine.. they just put out more threats.

Get Creative!

Naw, just play more removal.

Get creative!

Wait, Commander players actually want to win the game?

@CommanderMechanic

8 ай бұрын

believe it or not 😂

Get Creative!

Get Creative!