The number of discs you need can be expressed by the equation where N is the number you need and n is the number you currently have. The equation is N=n+1

@ethanhopfer1578

Жыл бұрын

Somebody gets it!

@paatrick90

Жыл бұрын

😁

@JTygerAU

Жыл бұрын

Gold

@evanbassett1122

Жыл бұрын

Can’t argue with math.

@markd1199

7 ай бұрын

Can you explain this to my wife? Cuz I get it!😂

This is unbelievably valuable advice. Great video. I was carrying a bunch of discs and just got super frustrated with my game. Of course I took the extreme route and started carrying three discs. As I played with so few discs I started to see holes I should fill. I would add one or two discs back until I played a round and didn't see any holes and I was happy with my shot selection. I now carry 17 discs but now I can tell you why I carry each one instead of just doing it cause I thought I had to.

I think having shots for everything is good the more advanced you get, but until you're throwing 300ft consistently the less options the better. I also feel like neutral flight disc's are more the way to go like the mako3, nova, pure, TL3, etc. because it teaches you how to manipulate flight paths to get what you want out of any disc put in your hands.

I've been playing DG for 2 years so I'm still a novice; I have just 5 discs with maybe a 6th on the way. I play most rounds with just 2 or 3 discs no problem. Simplicity is the way.

@vedmaburuxova68

8 күн бұрын

I see plenty of people with 10 and 20+ discs in my area, but I never see them throwing more than 3 or 4

Whatever you get of one disc, get a second one. Two putters. Two of each throwing putters, mids, and drivers. Serves two purposes. 1. You have a back up. So many times I've lost a disc and now the rest of the round is toast. 2. Practicing a shot twice on a hole is really helpful if you can spare the time and energy. Throwing a disc twice on one hole and learning what you did right and wrong with those two throws is way more effective than just going to the next hole and throwing the same disc on a different shot.

As a new-ish player in that 250 max range, I can see I have made improvements, so every couple months I hold tryouts for my bag. I’ll take every midrange I own and throw them on annie, flat, and hyper to see if their flights are changing and picking 3 that I can throw left, right, and straight the easiest. Repeat for each category. Thanks Robbie, this video, like so many others you’ve done, seem tailor made for making me better.

Gotta say, when I first started out, I used a Shark. It was my go to disc for everything. Eventually I grad a driver, but would still use the Shark as a putter. But I learned a lot jus throwing one disk and learning how to throw many shots with it.

One disc that i find a lot of use in as a beginner is a innova TL in Star plastic. 7/5/0/1 relatively forgiving for an over stable fairway driver. But I really love having it because it’s teaching me how to properly throw overstable/ stable discs long ranger. A putter can do the same but I can’t get a putter to fly nearly as far obviously and so when I get into situations where I want to do a big hyzer I pull out my tl, throw it flat, and let it naturally come back. And with a fade of only 1 it’s pretty stable and forgiving. I can also grow into the disc

14 is an insane number for a beginner. 5 or 6 is plenty. More important to learn how to throw and how each disc handles.

I use about 7 discs on rotation across my whole bag so I’m a firm believer of less is more!

I like setting the limit for a beginner bag at 8-9 since that is the number that fits in most small cooler or sling style bags. Straight putter, mid, fairway and driver is 4. I think if you have an overstable approach disc, that should cover the putter and mid overstable slots, so thats 5. I like a very flippy mid that needs to be powered down on, something like a Paradox, to cover the understable putter and mid slots, so thats 6. Then an overstable 9 speed covers the overstable fairway and driver slot, and a flippy fairway is 8, add a dedicated putter if you want one and you're done. Also, every disc golfer should have a Glitch.

Excellent video Robbie! I think a mako3 and a putter is about all you really need at first but buying too much plastic is just a fun part of disc golf. And of course everyone needs a couple zones!!

I'm with you on most of these. I think 2 driving putters is plenty (a bit US, a bit OS). But I'd add one you didn't exactly. I find a really OS utility disc in about 7-9 speed frequently useful, as a utility disc. Go around trees. Flare skip. Throw tight rollers around corners. Grenades and hammers. Hard turning forehand chip shots. Into intense headwind putts even. For a long time I used the now OOP XXX for this slot. I've recently switched to the Streamline Flare. Most folks probably use a Firebird here. But that slot, at least for a just beyond beginner, is super useful.

@tonyr0928

Жыл бұрын

The Flare is money, awesome for forehand touch shots that need to flex around trees.

I've found my buzzz to be a key disc for me. I use it to lay up next to the basket (as opposed to a long putt.)

You're the man Robbie! I've been trying to update my Dad's few discs that he carries. He's more of a run and gun kinda player but doesn't have the arm he once did. Right now he has a driver, understable fairway, Roc, and a putter. It has been quite the journey.

I started off with the Aviar, shark, Tee Bird, and Orc. A valkyrie and a monster made their way in soon after. I did not use a throwing putter ever, as the shark delt with anything which wasn't a putt. then the Destroyer came out and I was like "Yeah, 12 speed here comes 400+ feet" to which I watched it tombstone every time. But messign with the Orc and teebird really got me into disc golf because their flights paths had so much potential.

As a beginner, I only carry a dozen discs because I remembered an earlier video of Robbie C's saying, "The fewer the choices, the easier decision is to make.". Surprisingly, the Glitch is a new addition to my bag because it is easy to throw and fun to warm up while playing catch with other disc golfers.

@jakemiller270

Жыл бұрын

That is all you will need for a while. I recommend as you improve recycle that OS driver until it becomes your US driver. I still have my first Wraith. It is now a great roller disc. I saved a lot of money early not buying new discs with this approach unless I needed more stable molds. Plus it is fun to look back and remember when it still was dark orange and shiny.

@dblevins343

Жыл бұрын

If your still loving the Glitch, have you tried the new Watt? It's very similar but it can be found in max weight.

YES, I super agree with keeping a disc that isn't quite throwable for you yet. I made the "mistake" of getting a 13 speed boss as one of my first discs, and after a few year break and a year of playing again I can now throw it and it is such a special disc to me now.

I kinda subscribe to this methodology! I bag 2 nomads (one putting one throwing) Beat Pilot (US throwing) A zone A meteor and a Reactor as mids A drift and a grackle as fairways and A Wave and Zenith as distance drivers. Nice vid, definitely great for beginners

I went from carrying 30 discs to just 6, life is alot better lol

As someone in the windy prairies I'd say having that overstable fairway is an important slot (I bag the Thunderbird) I rarely use it if it's not windy because my home course is quite open, but it is very windy here, so I end up using it a lot in the wind. Other than that, I agree with everything he said. Thanks for another great vid Robbie!

Super helpful, I'm slowly picking out discs to fill my bag as I progress. This video is a keeper. Smash.

just got a smaller travel bag that only fits 12 discs and wow it’s great! feels awesome to carry a lighter bag and reduce the options a bit. thanks for the content man!

As a recreational disc golfer, my minimalist bag has 10 discs. 1 putting putter, 2 throwing putters, 3 mids, 4 fairway drivers. I'll replace 1 midrange with an approach disc on some courses.

This is really solid advice, and mostly what I follow as a super-rec player (No fieldwork, no tourneys, just casual rounds with friends) but I have found that, I'd rather throw a putter than a mid, so I only carry one or two mids, and more putters. I live in North Texas where I can play year-round, but it's super-windy for like 3-4 months and so, I need an over-stable fairway, as the fairway slot is where 90% of my throws come from. Some people, of course, need mids, and less fairway choices, but I love carrying a minimal bag.

@tkunzy3707

Жыл бұрын

I went the other direction, I recently put more mids in my bag and took some putters out. Have 5 mids now in the bag. I was trying to muscle my putters up to the 275ish max I could throw them with inconsistent results. Started throwing easy mids instead for those shots. Anything around 260-300 is a mid most likely for me and that distance is quite common at the courses near me.

One of things that makes building my bag rather difficult is I throw bh/fh roughly 50/50. Discs that fly straight for me bh are always gonna fly more understable for fh. If I choose an us/stable/os set up for bh I will definitely need to add at least one disc that's more os for my fh

@tylerwa757

Жыл бұрын

Agree 100%

Super Interesting. I've been playing for a year and a half and am going into my second " competitive" MA2 / MA40+ Season. I think there is a natural expansion / contraction to the discs one throws as one's technique grows changes ... I started with a pretty mono manufacturer bag and it helped me focus on molds I liked and my technique developing hyzer flips and touchier turn over shots... My bag expanded with "meta" type discs like, like a glow Envy or Bergs and contracted around stable to understand discs of the same molds (Truths, Escapes, Getaways)... I bag a couple utility discs, a Mutant and a Criminal but that also seems like 1 too many... I think I could add a neutral to stable distance driver to grow into that would give me that underpowered fade. Thanks Robbie, love your stuff!

The most important thing is having fun. Sometimes learning a new disc is fun. I just don't want to have to learn a disc when I am trying to score well. On a casual round, the person throwing their new super flippy Underworld on crazy lines is probably having more fun that the person who has chiseled their bag down to 9 discs.

9 for me. 3 stabilities in putter, mid, and driver respectively

You are the man, I wish I had this breakdown, 15 years ago when I was trying to figure it out, good stuff and makes a ton of sense!!!

Surprisingly but also intentionallyz this is nearly identical to my current bag. I’m a fairly new player and I have 9-10 discs I use regularly. I’m a bit made fun of bc I don’t have enough to fill out my bad but I don’t have a neeed for any more. I love what I have and I’m getting consistently from all of them. Amazing video❤

Maybe the best “in the bag” type videos you have ever done. Great job. Very valuable for beginners and a great reminder for us intermediates who like to buy and bag too many discs!

Great video. I basically arrived at this conclusion as I was playing rounds and playing with what I wanted discs to do. The only thing I would change from what you said would to add the Overstable mid you took out. Talking like 2 or 3 fade. Just for the fact that as your arm speed increases, you want a disc in that slot you know is not going to turn over. I use a beat in Mako as my under stable and a new mako as my neutral but I find every once in a while I throw the new mako perfectly and it turns over when I didn’t want it to and I just want something that finishes left for sure at 225 feet. But other than that I’m fully agree with everything else you said!

Really appreciate this video man you been killing it for me at least thank you for all the work and humor you put into these.

I think a lot of what you bag depends on your game and what you lean on the most for your preferred release angle.

Thanks for all of your effort to grow the game. This video has matched up well with my own journey as a beginner (20 months) and I have a similar strategy now when I maintain the composition of my bag. As one develops technique though, the practical definition of what is neutral, overstable or understable based on flight numbers will change somewhat (earlier comment spot-on). I find it really important now to evaluate how my ability in the game is developing and then carefully research "the next disc" that needs to be in the bag. I currently have 20 discs in the bag--3 putters, a series of midranges and fairway drivers as you describe, 4 9-speed disks that I use anytime I need "distance", and 2 10-speed (neutral and understable) and 2 12-speed (Tern/Thrasher) for situations and learning. But in a tournament round I may only use 8-10 of the total. My travel bag only holds 8 discs and it works out great for casual rounds when I am traveling by airplane.

Lots of great info in this video, and it describes a lot of how I built my bag over the first couple years. I had a 7 speed I couldn’t throw well at first, but grew into it. My approach (Pig & Harp) discs came later, but get used all the time in the woods. Slight understable mid range (Fuse) worked great when I started, and now it still works well, it just behaves more understable (vs neutral when I first started). I did get two putting putters at a local sporting good store in there as well. Only thing I’d say might be interesting for a future video (and Robbie’s insights that are better than mine) is: as a new player, I learned to throw standing still first. My flights standing still in round five with the same disc behaves a good bit different than a short run up after playing 40 rounds. If I run into that Fuse now, it turns over a lot. When I started, standing still, it was really straight/neutral flight. Anyhow, love the stuff!

Clear and well thought out Robbie! Well done.

I have 10 disc in my bag. Keystone Sensei Maestro Magician FD Rockstar Fuse River Diamond Beat in diamond. I use them all. Rockstar is weird so far. I can't get enough speed on that one yet. So i use it as very overstable and in strong headwind where i can get correct windspeed for the disc. I love my bag. I feel like i have 1 disc and only 1 for every shot i want to make. If i ever have problem choosing disc is because i can't make up my mind on what shot i want to make.

I have been hesitant at buying a Zone cuz I love my Pig. The "Pig is love Pig is life" comment made my day 😆😁🐷 This disc changed my game.

As a beginner I run... 3 drivers (2 so I can always throw 2 for practice + 1 utility) 2 mid (2 to throw every time) 3 putters (2 yo throw every time for approach shots and 1 putter)

Mako3, valkyrie, and an aviar is what I recommend to new players

just ordered a ridge roller so yeah i need all these discs!!!

Helpful as always to any skill level!

This was extremely well done. Thank you!!!

Yes sir that is wonderful advice, great video. From someone who has wasted a lot of money on discs, I highly recommend the paradox, uplink, and hex by mvp/axiom. They are great mid-ranges, the paradox is super understable. Great for beginners. Also if you're a beginner, looking for a driver, I would recommend innova dx beast or dx wraith starting with lighter weight, I noticed it made them more understable.

Fantastic video, thank you!

Yes Robbie, Yes to all the discs.

Legit info. After a year of buying discs, I just did this. Have 100 discs +\~ . Bags got 2 putters and 18 discs. 2 of each discs and a few singles.

I know I carry too many because I'm guilty of bringing that one disc for that one particular hole. That's at least 4 discs I'm bringing for 4 holes on my home course that I'm only going to throw once. Definitely need to work on that.

Great vid. Especially about hte overstable approach. One thing many could do, depending on their hands and what's comfortable is just use a putter OR mid while not really using the other. Many tend to favor one type or the other then go from that to FW drivers. Saves space in the bag for other discs.

I didn't think I needed an overstable midrange until I tried an Axiom Pyro. I can put it out farther than a Zone-clone, and I enjoy rim shape quite a bit more. It's pretty much my dedicated upshot disc now. Maybe the distinction is that it isn't a SUPER overstable midrange, and it falls into the straight-stable category. Either way, I love it. Great content as always, Robbie!

After playing for only a year I agree with all of this. With that being said do I have more fun and feel more confident playing with my bag that’s full? Yes. Am i improving as quickly as I could if I focused more on just a few discs. Probably but im ok with that. I like my bag full haha.

I just started about 2 months ago, I have 11 discs and I plan to only use this for the next year, them see where I am at. 3 putters/approach, 3 mid under neutral over, 3 under fairway, 2 over fairway.

Please don't let my wife see this video. JK, for years, my family and I played casually. I carried three drivers, a mid and a putter in my hand. I could probably shoot well enough with that set up now if I'm being honest.

I'm gonna sit thru all the adds just to help your channel don't say I never did anything for you

This is spot on! I only carry 8 discs and love it.

@wzywgwzywg

Жыл бұрын

Also recommend getting a small bag. Carrying a few discs in a big bag feels really silly, unless you're going to fill the rest of the bag up with beers. 😝

I’m out here with 1 disk that I god from 5 below and I still love to play

My „go minimal“ list would look like this: Putt&Approach: Putting putter 2/3/-1/0 4/3/0/3 Midrange: 5/5/-1/0 5/5/-1/1 5/5/0/1 Fairway: 7/5/-2/1 7/5/0/1 8/5/0/2 Driver: 10/6/-2/1 (maybe light weight) Cheater Discs: 😏 1/1/0/2 5/5/-3/.5 9/5/-3/1

Great video! I’ve only been playing about a month but I’m starting to turn my US discs over too much. Was looking to grab a Buzzz OS but may check out the Zone or Pig as well!

@tinymadness22

Жыл бұрын

just use a bigger hyzer then

@johnmaher5887

Жыл бұрын

Learn the hyper flip (just throw the understable disc on a hyper angle) and you’ll give those understable discs a whole new life.

I get what you're saying about the over stable mid but sometimes you need that beef and it can be tough to manipulate other discs to hit those lines.

Love the topic. How about discs for into the wind and with the wind and all the other winds. This would be a great topic to talk about. Thanks and keep up the great job.

But Robbie...what if I have my favorite disc that is in 7 different types of plastic and 9 different types of wear? I got to carry 30 discs! Seriously the less discs you take the better. You get to learn the discs a lot more if you have fewer choices and use them in all sorts of situations.

In the throwing putters section, you recommended all three (understable, neutral, overstable). Then, at the end you added an overstable putt and approach for hyzers. Doesn’t the overstable throwing putter fill that slot already? Great video, great advice as usual!

Favorite discs in my bag are my overstable approach disc, and flippy fairway driver.

I use 16-18 mix of drivers, fairways, mids, and 4/5 putter/approach discs. Works for me.

It was awesome to be able to run into you was awesome to actually very awesome to be able to see you and meet you in person keep up the great work by friend

I think this is a good bag to step up to after you've played with only a couple neutral discs and become comfortable with them. Now you can add the rest as "specialty" discs but still lean on the favorites, until eventually, you have all of them "unlocked". The only thing I would add is that I think some real beef like a justice or a firebird is a good thing to have, even for a beginner. Without it, it's difficult to throw overhands, skip shots, cut some corners with little touch forehands, etc. Maybe these aren't beginner shots, but again, I'm thinking of most of these discs as "specialty" shots and you still should lean on your few favorites for a while while you get comfy with all that plastic. Good video though, as always!

Golf, I carry...4 wood, 4 Hybrid, 5,7,9, PW, putter. My bag: 2 identical putters, 3 mid, 3 FW. Less discs = less decisions.

Them glory’s are my go to lol I carry 3 of them just incase I lose one. Greta forehand discs and you can put a lot of power behind them an u don’t have to worry about them turning an burning. They hold a great straight flight with a nice fade to the right at the end

I think that 5 to 6 is minimum that is just fine! Beginner (can be reduced to 3 actually two putters one mid range) 1 putter putter 2 (3) putters , straigh, understable (stable throving putter fo those hyzer shots) 1 neural midd range 1 fairway (neutral or neutral understable) Advanced (small shoulderback for travelling usage) 6 disk 1 neutral putter for putting, forehands, and semi power throws (for me mvp atom) 1 middrange (neutral, stable) (mvp reactor or something other that works backhand and forehand) for 80% power shots 2 fairways (neutral understable (for me insanity), other stable (firebird for me) 2 drivers neutral stable (wraith for me) for full power bckhand, forehand, one overstable (destroyer for me) for windy days. I can pack to my travel back with those 6 discs and not needing anything more fore casual round whike travelling.

The short answer is that I need all of them. The long answer is the same as the short answer but with more reaching to justify my addiction to purchasing plastic circles.

I run 2 polecat, 2 zone, a paradox, crave, piwakawaka, saint, insanity, tumbleweed, grace (more overstable than it seems), tenacity, and a Rive

I throw both a Pig and a Zone, using the Zone on shots where i need just a touch more glide. I think they compliment eachother really well!

The one disk I absolutely, positvely, must have (and the most versitle) is my 'dead left' Champion Firebird (9-3-0-4). Not even the apocolypse is going to stop it from going left, or right with a forehand,,. Especially when you'd rather play wooded courses any day of the week, as I do. Big skips/flares are always super handy. Soft and high lobs with a tomahawk/thumber it flips upside down and lands soft. A little straighter overhead throw gives a super sweet rock solid and consistant left-to-right curve, and if you need to throw someone out at home plate it do a pretty tight corkscrew way down the fairway. Maybe even land on it's edge and roll a little, to boot. Put all the annie you can muster on it to weave in, out, around any obstacle you need to avoid cause evententually, no matter what... it is going to dive back. It cruelly laughs and mocks while pointing it'd talon at the headwinds, no matter what they try to throw at it. A Firebird, Teebird, Roc, and a putter in the proper weights and plastics will put just about anyone, well on their way to disc golf bliss

You might need some minor adjustments for forehand dominant. I still don’t think you want the super overstable stuff, but something like a Pyro, Volt, and Thunderbird are great for learning flat and slight hyzer forehands.

Just had my best round ever, and it was only carrying 3 discs instead of my whole bag. A lot of times less is more. Unfortunately, that probably means I have to go rethink my bag again :C

I like those different overstable discs for my forehand flicks. Minimalist bag for me? I could probably do just as good with 12 or so discs but I always like having more options available. My main bag is around 22 discs.

I am new to the game started with 3 but then had fun to buy nice looking discs😂. I tried going always a stable overstable and understable disc for the distances. Actually everything going over 6 or 7 is still too fast but I just added 2 drivers for forehand and I use them safely which surprises me. Some discs I added are just a challenge since they just don’t work at the first uses. What I really need is my aviar pro putter,roc 3, buzzss, fuse, diamond, river and my lightweight musket and maybe the berg. Sure there is Innova similars😂

I use 1 putter, 1 mid, and 1 driver. I own a lot though! 😂

I like how Robbie knows the degrees of a pitching wedge. Cheeky.

I definitely think a lot of newer players are going to appreciate the understable side of things, as I was learning I threw basically every disc on a hyzer angle naturally and I've seen plenty of others do it as well. You can really still get a spike hyzer shot with an understable disc is you put enough hyzer on it, and I'm sure lower arm speeds will be able to as well.

Thank you Robbie! Right now I’ve got a bag full of about 12 putters to practice with, plus four drivers and four 4/5 speed mid ranges. Everything either stable or under stable except for putters. This video is gonna help big time once I stop learning how to throw and start actually working on improving. And I have a ten speed in there that I’m hoping to throw properly by the end of the year. Thanks again!

As many as possible for throwing practices to lessen the time spent on retrieving discs, one of each distance class (distance, fairway, midrange, putter) for playing.

Beginner here. I bag 19 discs, but only 12 molds (neutral & different OS approach / throwing putters / putting putters / understable & neutral and a weeee bit stable mids). For me, the best way to get better is to carry two of the same mold or flight type in my bag.

The discmania mermiad as overstable fairway, it floats so you got that govered as well. Water is so scary and intimidating. Might as well take the dragan as understable fairway. It was my first disc to pas the 90mtr mark. Now it always turns as I trow harder but it still floats🤣

Played a one disc (Buzzz) round at my local and shot the same score as my previous full bag round. Of course there are certain shots that were harder and some I couldn't reach but overall not a big difference.

I wish I had a plan when I started buying the disk in my bag I have 20-22 disc's and pretty much all are understaffed to stable fairways

wore the same C1 Polo today! #TeamCircle1

And sometimes I play with people that don't have their own discs yet so I have enough were they can use mine as well so I can grow the disc golf community

I played with 2 putters, 1 midrange (x2, new and beat in), 2 fairways and 2 drivers for a long time. I found this worked fine until I started playing in wind and bigger courses and then I would quickly run into limitations. Now I'm at 3 putters (2 putt, 1 throw) 2 approach/mid (1 overstable, 1 neutral), 2 fairway (1 overstable, 1 neutral) and 3 drivers (1 over, 1 stable, 1 under). Plus I have backups for a couple of the drivers and have a mid and a fairway that I'm trying to break in. I'm up to 14-15 now, and find it's more than enough.

I have beginner friends who will sometimes throw a 14 speed driver and it drives me crazy...that it works on some lines. Yes, they have noodle arms and can't hit 250 in a field with anything, but if they want a hard fade, well, they get it. One of them even aced on a skip a few weeks ago on a shot that I feel has no pure air line.

Great video, as a new player I have no real idea how to throw putters, if I use my power grip I use on my mids and fairways I almost always griplock it so I disc up alot of the time when I know the putter is probably the better option

@timeandspacevintage3380

Жыл бұрын

Also oddly my bag is almost your exact number except I don't have the overstable putt approach I'll have to look into that! But glad I was on the right track!

I carry a small bag in the winter, just 9 discs. The rest of the year, I have 14-16 in my backpack. But honestly, some of those are filler to keep the rest of the discs from falling over. If I played more varied courses, I would probably take more discs along.

When I first started I mostly just played with a Mako3 and an Aviar which taught me a ton of great foundations. Now I have been playing for about 10 months and can throw about 300 feet. I have pretty solid backhand and forehand shots so I keep 8 discs total. 3 fairways, 3 mids, 2 putters, and a throwing putter. My fairways and mids I have one of each overstable, straight, and understable. I feel like with this setup I have every shot I can think of with either my forehand or backhand. Someday I'll add 3 more for distance drivers but I'm just not there yet haha

I've always tried to keep my discs limited to 14 playing discs and 2 putting putters for 16 total. I don't know why I do that other than to keep smaller, lighter bags to carry and less questioning myself on shot choice.

All of them

I tend to play better when I have fewer discs. Too many options for me means I can't get into any kind of flow with a disc.

I've been playing for 5+ years and only recently expanded my disc selection to actually need a backpack. I played with 10-12 discs and never found myself in a tough spot that I couldn't get out of.

Personally I think most slots can be minimized to two discs- one stable to understable and one stable to overstable instead of one understable, one straight and one overstable. Most slightly understable discs can be great tools for both anhyzer shots and straight shots and anything that has a reliable fade will also be workable enough for flex lines or big hyzers. Plus having discs that you do have to work slightly are great for teaching new players how to shape lines