What did you think of this theory? What theory would you like to cover next?

@MyTwoCents2

8 ай бұрын

How drunk does he have to be to see LENNY in all the faces ... or was there something more to it

@chrismoore7365

2 ай бұрын

I think it is more of a question of the Ones who would've followed Arthur at Beaver Hallow if they were to live: Lenny, Sean, Hosea. Those who were "positive" connections to Arthur in the VD gang being withered away from the board that would've changed the outcome.

“You’ll damn us all.” A recurring thing in the story is that Hosea is literally always right.

@AliAlnamir

8 ай бұрын

Except for the Braithwaites and Grays

@titustavares335

8 ай бұрын

@@AliAlnamir yeah I was like shit wait I should’ve mentioned them. That was a true and blue fuck up. Like Trelawny said, “it’s a small town…people talk.”

@AliAlnamir

8 ай бұрын

@@titustavares335 Honestly their biggest issue with that was they were arrogant and careless. They should have stuck around longer and played the good guy schitck with disturbing as little as possible before gradually increasing their level of disturbance. By then, they would have been trusted enough by the locals to avoid suspicion, and they could place all the blame on the feuding families. Had they not done any crimes or made any noise in that time gaining trust, the Pinkerton’s leads would have all gone cold.

@titustavares335

8 ай бұрын

@@AliAlnamir exactly! Also, when Milton shows up at Clemens point, all Dutch had to do was turn himself in. All he had to do was accept his fate to save his “friends.” But no. Dutch is Dutch.

@TheWolfman112

7 ай бұрын

@@AliAlnamir That's Dutch's problem from the jump. Lack of patience. Hosea tries to instill that in him, but Dutch is too stubborn to listen. The very first train robbery at the end of the Colter chapter makes that clear. Hosea pleads for Dutch to lie low, but Dutch throws all caution and care to the wind, causing the Pinkertons to catch their trail after Blackwater, setting up the entire story. If they laid low, moving south and doing small jobs to keep afloat (like the small coach robberies/con jobs) then they would've made it out scot free. But no, Dutch had to go all gung ho and cause problems. Or better yet, wait for Arthur and Hosea to finish their business in Blackwater and get the money more discreetly. But no, Micah got Dutch all excited about the ferry job and fucked it all up. Because Dutch has no goddamn patience.

The main thing I always get hung up on in "What if Arthur never got sick?" is just the simple fact that he would've curbstomped Micah to death, considering they were only evenly matched in a fight when Arthur was on his death bed.

@AbysmalRandomn3ss

8 ай бұрын

If Arthur never got sick he never would have cared about doing the right thing in the end.

@keiremu

8 ай бұрын

I think he would have killed Dutch (if can not be reasoned with) and Micah and maybe be the leader of the rest. The reason why nobody respect or listen to Arthur was because he was dying. Before that everyone respected him. John would never have died the end.

@theoutsiderjess4869

7 ай бұрын

​@@AbysmalRandomn3ssI don't think so because Arthur showed signs of guilt for the life they lived long before he had tb. Tb just put things in perspective the Nun said he was always helping people and that was when he was his happiest. So even if he didn't have tb Arthur would have still helped the others members leave the gang

@tikkidaddy

7 ай бұрын

Some of the mods on the Red Dead Realism channel really get me thinking...Hey Bell, why don't you try flapping your trap at THIS version of Arthur and let me know how that works out for you. Ill wait. Arthur Morgan would've crushed him like a roach😂

@kevinb6973

6 ай бұрын

He literally gave that tommy guy Brain damage and he was like twice his size… Arthur would’ve murdered him so easily

I think Micah would have still convinced Dutch to kill Cornwall. Hosea would have had enough and left and everyone reasonable would have joined him.

@theblazingpegasus9151

7 ай бұрын

I cant see hosea leaving the gang, ge cares way to much about those in it to just leave them to their fate, i think hed be like arthur and begrudgingly go along with whats happening while actively fighting dutch to see reason

Something else we should bear in mind is that hosea is throughout the game mention to be on his last legs, whether that be through sickness or old age, we are not sure. Let's say that even without the pinkertons showing up to the bank robbery it is still a disaster for the gang due to increased police, and brontes men showing up to the robbery hosea is able to evade capture, either regrouping with the gang and ending up in guarma, or taking the role of leading the gang in dutch absence I think either way this would speed up his declining health in the same way guarma did for Arthur, and its very possible Dutch disregards his reason causing the gang to decline at the same speed it did. The difference is that I think a civil war would still break out in the gang with Charles, Sadie, John, Arthur, and hosea trying to protect the lesser able members of the gang from Dutch and Micah leading to a breaking point that causes a stand off like we see at the end of the game. In this is see two scenarios for hosea fate. I think it's either likely he dies along with Arthur helping John's family and lesser able members of the gang escape, or surviving (Arthur still dies but in the comfort of hosea John and the rest of the gang) and either assuming leadership of the gang for what little time he has left, or in the event, lesser able members of the gang leave before the split, goes with John, Jack and abigail to protect them for what time he has left.

I think had Hosea survived, I honestly think Dutch would have tried to find a way to either kill Hosea or even Micah would have tried to kill Hosea in some fashion (whether directly or indirectly) in order to be the sole person in Dutch's ear.

@TheWolfman112

7 ай бұрын

It would've been another Grimshaw. Micah killing him in cold blood, but Dutch still not realizing Micah is the bad guy.

I think the reason certain characters had to die was because otherwise it would have been Micah, Dutch Bill and Javier against Arthur, John, Hosea, Shaun, Lenny and Miss Grimshaw.

@brandenantonino23

7 ай бұрын

Don't forget Sadie uncle tilly Mary Beth Abigail and Karen if she'd never gotten drunk

@downrtfierce

7 ай бұрын

and Charles, who would side with Arthur.

@wylirix0819

5 ай бұрын

If they were outnumbered like that, everyone would side on the majority, It'd be Micah alone because Dutch and Hosea would probably move to Arthur's side if John, Sean, Lenny, Grimshaw, Charles, and Sadie was there, Even if Micah was with Dutch, it's 2 very skilled gunslingers versus 2 very skilled gunslingers (Arthur and Hosea) with 3 skilled gunslingers (John, Sadie, Charles) and 3 mediocre gunslingers (Sean, Lenny, Grimshaw) Dutch and Micah would be dead or they'd surrender.

@kamageddynvideochannel3479

5 ай бұрын

And Saddie

@kindertak5396

4 ай бұрын

you forgot Joe and Cleet

I think Dutch was too far gone and Hosea's presence wouldn't have changed that. He would, however, focus on getting the surviving gang members to safety and ultimately side with Arthur and John. He probably would have told Cleet and Joe to piss off too.

if only arthur wouldve done that sick ass dead eye thing he did for john in valentine

Like Wile E Coyote, Dutch always has a plan, and it ends up blowing up in his face.

If Hosea was alive he would have killed Micah himself

@ljsgaming5943

8 ай бұрын

You didn’t play the game then no one even had a slight chance at killing Micah he was to OP up until Dutch shot him in the back on the mountain if Hosea was alive his opinion wouldn’t have mattered anyway it never did

@Hennybear600

8 ай бұрын

@@ljsgaming5943 I played the game and Hosea is n was a great conman if you listen to him when he speaks old man or not he was still a killer/crook. He would’ve killed Michah the moment he saw how he was playing with Dutch’s mind. It’s why Micah was so successful at doing it AFTER Guarma. There was no Hosea to be the voice of reason

@ljsgaming5943

8 ай бұрын

⁠​⁠​⁠@@Hennybear600Stop fantasizing no one could kill Micah or they would have done it already a long time ago if killing him is as easy as you make it sound💀

@Satir3dbastard

8 ай бұрын

​@@ljsgaming5943 news flash, Micah was shot in the chest not the back 💀

@newbtehpug9303

8 ай бұрын

I think micah only ever wanted the money from blackwater or some other plan he had if hosea was alive and kept dutch and the gang in check i dont see micah bothering to stay since all he sees is dying and living and the time inbetween plus he would know best that the pinkertons are getting close to ending them

Wasn’t there a camp interaction where even Hosea tells John to grab jack and Abigail and get lost? I think when the events of bever hallow erupted I think Hosea would have been trying to get people to leave and to safety quietly without Dutch noticing, and when Dutch would call them traitors kinda play along, he really liked Lenny as well so his death would have played a big part in that maybe as well, then after John I have a feeling that would have broke Hosea like it did Arthur, especially when everyone had their guns draw and John showed back up “you left me” that might have been when Hosea dropped his hands stopped being the voice of reason and actually aimed his gun tword Dutch and micha. And as much as Hosea didn’t really trust micha either thru the whole game, maybe he would have been the one to shoot micha then for tearing his “family” apart.

Haven’t watched all the video yet but can already tell it’s an amazing video

Just before Hosea's shot, when he stares ahead I wanted him to say, "Dutch?" I think that would have had an even bigger impact of that moment.

Thank you for making a video on Hosea the best character btw why did Arthur supported Dutch here?

@CynicGTA

8 ай бұрын

Dutch’s reasoning was Bronte had to be taken out because if they hit the bank of Saint Denis Bronte would retaliate. Better to get him first. Arthur agreed with it

@NJRMendis

8 ай бұрын

Arthur trusted Dutch but realized later in the game he had to make his own choices, when it was too late to save Hosea and Lenny. he said “business is business” completely trusting Dutch was operating solely with the gang in mind. Which he wasn’t, he was already unhinged

@Superwogo01

8 ай бұрын

Hosea is better then Dutch and John in my opinion

@boesvig2258

8 ай бұрын

Arthur supported Dutch because that’s the relationship they had - Dutch was the leader, Arthur the follower. Every time Arthur has voiced a concern or has disagreed, Dutch has shut him down and Arthur has acquiesced. It’s not until after Hosea's death that Arthur finally stands up to Dutch.

@Nictona

8 ай бұрын

At this point in the gabg arthur still very much trusted Dutch's word. They were best friends at the time.

Bruh they should’ve gave the player the option to choose who to side with at shady bell that would’ve been crazy

Given that Dutch says he sees Hosea's influence in Arthur when he first starts challenging him, and things still end up the way they do, i imagine at some point hed just start seeing Hosea's earnings as more "lack of faith" and dissent. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he ended up believing that Hosea was spevigically turning both Arthur and John against him. The others probably would've dtill behaved the samr though. Javiet and Bill where clearly syubbornly ride or die with Dutch no matter what John, Arthur, or Charles said to them, and while i can see then respecting Hosea's opinion more i also feel like he'd be too passive to be trying to actually warn them against what Dutch is trying to sell them until it was too late.

Towards the halfway point of the story, Dutch started taking any 2nd guessing of his "plans" personally and not in the sense that they're being made out of caution by his most senior/experienced members. Arthur was also blindly loyal to Dutch when it came down to it and had he openly sided with Hosea that hitting Angelo was tenement to suicide, I believe Dutch would have backed down, or at least done something different. It wasn't until Arthur saw Dutch strangle the old Spanish woman, followed by leaving John in prison and finally when he was going to leave Abigail to the Pinkertons that finally snapped Arthur out of his blind loyalty. But by then it was far too late. Arthur was terminally ill and the gang was ripping itself apart

This was THE moment that it all imploded. The shootout in Valentine was not directly Dutch's fault and it can even be argued that disaster in Rhodes was also not entirely if Dutch's design. But going after Angelo and the Bank robbery WAS. As a result, Hosea and Lenny were killed. After Hosea's death, Micha had an open door into Dutch's ear. Hosea's line "you'll damn us ALL" couldn't be more poignantly accurate

@user-yt2gy1jl5z

Ай бұрын

Hosea planned most of the bank robbery tho and found out about the bank it was a good job it’s just the Micah was a rat

Difficult to speculate, but Micah would never have been able to fill and exploit the void the death off Hosea left behind to begin with. Micah is a survivor as he claims to be but he absolutely is a opportunist. Without the death off Hosea and the following opportunities Micah wouldnt have been that influential now i do think there would have been a escalation like we have in the original story (the you HAVE to pick sides between Arthur and Dutch) but i cannot see Dutch siding against both Arthur and Hosea. He would have killed Micah for being the rat, you have to remember in the main-story on this point Dutch is blinded by a bloodlust and this blinded Dutch fueled by Micah took both his "sons" not blindly following his current path but staying true and loyal to his and Hoseas old ways as a betrayal he walked away from John letting him die twice and he killed Arthur twice aswell once by walking away and not saving him knowing or assuming it would have killed him and by letting it happen upon the mountain. I cannot imagine Dutch loosing his way so badly by being blinded that he sacrificed his family and killing his sons with Hosea there.

please keep doing these types of vids.

I believe Dutch would be got affected by Micha anyway no matter Hosea was alive or wasn't , If he was , Dutch or Micha would created a different situation that could killed Hosea exactly like the one Arthur had in the oil company when Dutch lived him alone BUT if Hosea was alive at the end of Chapter 6 , we probably had one of cold and coolest duel and shooting between Hosean and Dutch and maybe one of them got shot and killed by the other . In my opinion Dutch could got shot by Hosea and run like there was no option for him and it would another good ending for dear Arthur and another epic American venom between Hosea and Dutch much sooner than 1907 . ( Sorry about my mistakes in writing )

I think Hosea would be able to real in Dutch around the end of the gang while possibly even start pushing for Micah to leave and I can see good amount of the gang following Hosea over Dutch if a civil war did breakout seeing through many talks with gang members Hosea was most certainly very respected and loved by many, possibly even more than Dutch

Their interaction reminds me lf the Manhunt Development where Dutch was Rockstar while Hosea the Staff that mutinied which brought forward Jack Thompson who would be the Pinkertons

i like the idea of arthur not getting sick and hosea not dying so towards the end arthur john hosea sadie and possibly others rob dutch and his chest full of cash which they then use to slip away on a boat leaving dutch and all the people that stayed loyal to him to go down there road of self destruction

Going against Angelo Bronte was one of Dutch's worst ideas. The gang have robbed plenty of stage coaches, banks and even trains belonging to powerful men Cornwall but Bronte's home base wasn't some train from which the gang can run but a house in the middle of the city. He was incredibly connected man. Dutch fought against the system but Bronte used the system. So trying to rob a bank in a city from which the gang couldn't easily run and getting away with it would always be a challenge even if Micah haven't outed them. The gang should've run away from San Denis right after they've gotten Jack so that they could live and operate in the wilderness like they always did.

For me, Hosea was like a Dale to Shane towards Dutch

Hosea honestly should have been the leader of the gang and his impact is felt after his death because when things were at its worst it was Hosea that Arthur took after and not Dutch. Arthur was the voice of reason Dutch in his paranoia no longer wanted to listen too

@CameronClark-sk7mg

7 ай бұрын

Hosea was much wiser which would make him a much better lead.

If hosea survived to the end of the vanderline gang in chapter 6 i think he would've died how miss grimshaw died shot by micah beacuse he sided with authur and is trying to get dutch to realize micah is the rat

i remember dutch not really wanting to do the bank job..and hosea and arthur convnced him it was fine

kinda wished that they gave us a choice with dutch or hosea

Ngl, I knew how instrumental the whole St Dennis chapter was already. The most important thing I learned here today is that red, gold and black is a sick combination 7:53

They were doomed no matter what. Maybe their last chance was at the start of Chapter 3, before robbing another Cornwall asset. That probably tipped everyone they were hiding down South. But even at that it was a slim chance bounty hunters and Pinkertons weren't already going to be sniffing around.

Dutch's gang Needed AK Assult Rifles Infinite ammo and Infinite GunOil ♾

2:19 "… would have put many law enforcement officers on high alert, least of all the Pinkertons." Least of all? Surely you mean the exact opposite, "most of all"?

@CynicGTA

8 ай бұрын

My English ain't that good sometimes

ever since I first played the game, I always had a question. What would of happened if at any point someone had asked what the plan was. Like maybe* he really did have a plan for John, but it truly was thrown out of whack. Maybe if he truly had a plan (I believe he always has a plan at the very least) and someone asked and he told them, they would probably go smoother, or at least given him other angles to consider. I might be missing the point of dutch in this mini rant, but no one ever asked what his plan was as far as I know

Pretty sure Hosea was gonna die anyway if you notice his coughs and camp conversations about him not gonna live for much longer

With Dutch being the king, it always depends on what he does or does not do. It's a question of which game is being played.

❤yes the real true leaders are Hosea and Arthur. They are logical people they do have the best interest for the game. Dutch has been messing up from the get-go just like in black water Hosea and Arthur had a better plan.

You can tell a lot about a person by the way they say "Saint Denis"

That would be a nice Outcome for Hosea, Arthur, John, maybe even Lenny (T_T), & maybe curb a "Civil War" between the Vin Der Linde Gang & maybe prevent Minimal Blood lost however, We may never know that for sure now.. Also the Pinkertons were always looking for cracks in the Gang, even Milton managed to Poison Arthur's Thoughts of Dutch & Micah in the end & the Family fell apart. Was Micah even the True Rat, The Gang could have done without Him though... But later on Ross found the crack when the Family/Gang fell apart after John left with Abigail, Little Jack, & Uncle. Also if the Main Characters had managed to survive the Ordeal, would John be forced to kill Them all too just so He could get His Family back from the Pinkertons? Also I tested My Theory if I had tried to "Captured" Bill Williamson instead of shooting Him would I get different Unique Dialogue & Cutscene. Maybe I should have thought to try Roping Bill instead of just shooting the Mexican Tyrannical Leader at the Time but I didn't think to reset the Game & try a Different Mythid, I don't know... But I did notice if You get John to shoot & kill the Tyrannical Leader, Reyes would just shoot & kill Bill Williamson in turn..

What if Dutch or Javier sided with Arthur & John in chapter 6?

@alexm.h.8270

8 ай бұрын

You only need Dutch for that, because Javier would be side with Dutch. You can find that out in a side mission and to answer the question Micah would be most probably dead because the hole gang siding against him and his two friends.

@RyanTheDark

8 ай бұрын

@@alexm.h.8270 I kinda want to see one where Dutch, Javier, and (probably) Bill sides with Arthur; and then Javier alone.

@theflyingdutchman1301

8 ай бұрын

Javier actually never sided against Arthur, hes pissed and angry with him as he sees it as a lack off absolute loyalty towards Dutch but hes the only one who doesnt aim his guns nor fire upon his former brothers in the absolute escalating moments.

@Samsonig

7 ай бұрын

​@@theflyingdutchman1301that's not cannon the.actor was late to the set if you look again during the ending of the cutscene you can see Javier aiming at Arthur and john

hosea wouldve taken arthurs side but thats in too much of a perfect world

Yes

Definitely need more likes

Even I don't like Bronte. He rules a corrupt city with children as thieves. But I agree with Hosea. Afterall he didn't even hurt Jack he even gave him a luxiorious life that even any of them can't give. I mean when they retrieve Jack it's obvious that he is happy.

Lore of How Dutch Caused Hosea’s Death | Red Dead Redemption 2 momentum 100

I like to see a reboot in a more comic accurate version

They should have disbanded and scattered in chapter 2.

Dutch is to blame for the whole storyline man ....

All in all, Hosea had a longer life than everyone else in the gang.

The whole gang was full of rotten people. They had what was coming to them. The only decent lot was the ladies. Mary Beth, Tilly & Karen.

I feel like te question What happened if Hosea survived?" May be even more important of a question then "What if Arthur survived?" I agree that Hosea was the one keeping Dutch in check and I am certain the loss of Hosea was so devestating to Dutch and the entire gang, that what happened at Beaver Hollow was inevitable at that point. It sounds resonable to me: If you lose someone who's as close to you as Hosea was to Dutch, you will be broken by it (I knew, I certainly would be) and the fact that the gang lost what can only be described as" the brain of their operations"

@Manixx.

6 ай бұрын

I died?

Shows 50 "x" marks on the map to indicate dead body counts, still claims Bronte had minimum security. lol

Hosea would've lived and so would've Lenny

@Manixx.

6 ай бұрын

I'm dead!?

Hosea was the best character, outside of Arthur, imo

I’m gonna be real with y’all. I never liked Dutch. When i first played this game, I just knew that he was gonna end up screwing everyone over because of his pride, his god complex. Lets be honest we all know he had a god complex when all of the gang idolized him and looked up to him when he was just a bat shit crazy maniac that didn’t like the idea of civilization moving forward

Just subscribe

I’d love to see you covering “Abigail was the real rat” theory. Although me personally doesn’t think it was just a theory but a likely true.

@CynicGTA

8 ай бұрын

Thats actually a really interesting perspective

@kaydens6964

8 ай бұрын

There is no one else in the gang that can be a rat besides Abigail She has the motivation of keeping her family away from gang life, She was never in shootouts when shit hits the fan ( Jack was never there during any of the sudden camp busts) She has detailed information about the robbery to actually sell out the gang (She was directly involved in the Saint Denis bank job) She has an end game plan upon gang destruction to run away with Dutch's money ( She has not only located the chest but also has a key) No one else meets all the criteria

@kaydens6964

7 ай бұрын

@@sunnyisabunny1479 Not necessarily, John said he was “heading to town for Abigail anyway” during the oil wagon mission, implying that Abigail does leave the camp for various reasons like shopping etc. Also, Abigail was being sent to scout the bank at Saint Denis before the heist. The main difference between John and Abigail is mostly motive, I think John is very close to Arthur at this stage, he is content with the outlaw life and gang code/brotherhood means a lot to him than Abigail. Also, John is a gun, he needs to be in shootouts himself.

Dutch definitely contributed towards Hosea death but ofcource it was agent Milton who shot and killed him.