How does a REL subwoofer add dimensionality and depth to a sound system?
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Hey there, John Hunter with REL. Here, so a question arises, and it's how is it that subwoofers can produce so much dimensionality and spaciousness, particularly in high-quality two channel recordings, isn't space sort of conveyed by the main speakers.
0:30
Of course, it is in part. The simple answer is this, space the amount of time that year brain mechanism requires to decode larger distances happen as a function of bass and it's because the spaces themselves are tuned if you will to very, very long wavelengths. And that means very deep bass. So, for example, we were fortunate enough about six or seven years ago to tour Notre Dame in Paris.
1:00
And just walking into that space for first of all, it's just a little awe inspiring. It just is. If you haven't been there once it's opened back up to the public, you have to go. You walk in and with your eyes closed, you can tell you're walking into a vast physical space. Why? Because the ear brain is decoding. Just the sound of natural footsteps. You know, your boots on the ground send out a little mini concussion wave and it takes a certain amount of time to hit the ceiling, the walls, those beautiful stained glass windows, and return to your ears.
1:30
That time is your brain going, oh wow that was like 1.2 seconds. This is a really, really big space I'm in. Right? Deep bass produces extremely long wavelengths. I forget the exact number, but I believe a 32 Hertz note is somewhere in the 46-foot range. Alright, that's roughly 15 meters.
2:00
The amount of time it takes sound to travel 15 meters, 46 feet, and return to your ears is measurable. It's decodable. Your brain can tell the difference between that and something that happened very quickly. There's another part of it. So I'm going to get REL specific here. The way that we connect seamlessly with the main speakers is unique.
2:30
Not that other people aren't trying to do high level now, but we have all kinds of copycats trying to pile in, but the way that we do it is unique, and what it allows the ear to do and the brain to do is relax. When you get it right, and that requires crossing over significantly below the main speaker in order to have really a truly flat passover between main speakers and REL. When you do that right and you have a subwoofer going down, perhaps in the low twenties or in case of some of our big ones well below 20, it conveys a completely seamless, natural three-dimensional stage.
3:00
You're not aware of the location. So many theater-based subs it's two speakers and a sub there are 2 speakers during their business and occasionally there's a sound over there and your eye ear go, right there's the sub. If you, do it properly with a REL it's impossible to decode the location of it.
It just transforms your main speakers into truly full range devices. And again, it's that full range which we experience in everything we do naturally outside of listening to music.
3:30
On a recorded basis when you hear it done properly and you are able to get very close to 20 hertz, all of a sudden space is what opens up. And it's not just space because when you have that deep bass foundation underneath, you get complete restoration of all of the harmonics all the way up the next nine octaves. You just get these beautiful mathematically, correct. Because it's grounded, you get this beautiful set of rising harmonics that just restore it to the way your brain knows it happens in real life but can't when the speaker is truncated. Great question. Thank you.
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Love this content from such a knowledgeable and respected guru 👍🏻 keep up the great work John!
I agree John, I've loved 2 channel sound all my life. I've owned some respectable "blue-collar" speakers, (Advent, KLH, Cerwin-Vega) but when I went 2.1 (with subwoofer) I found another dimension of sound. Almost like adding texture and depth to my music. Well said sir.
When I take my two REL subs out of my stereo system, the soundstage literally collapses. Can't enjoy my music (vinyl records) without them and I am so happy with my RELs! 🙂
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
We are glad to hear that you are enjoying your RELs!
Loving my two-Rel t7x set-up. John is bang on when he talks about speed and added depth. It transformed my already-great speakers. Love these short videos by REL. Always thought provoking.
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying our videos, and that the T/7x are performing well in your system! Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.
Excellent video about an excellent subwoofer. Love these short tech talks!
Oh John, thanks for the explanation of how subs work w mains and why crossing over low is the way to set them. W my OPEN BAFFEL PAP QUINTETS I have the T9X’s are crossed over at around 35 Hz.
Having a REL for now two years, I couldn’t be happier with my choice. For music and theater (T7i).
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying the performance of your T/7i! If you have any questions about the subwoofer then feel free to reach out and we will be happy to assist.
@remic2902
2 жыл бұрын
@@RELAcoustics Thank you. I just bought the Sneakers CD to fine tune my REL a step further. I may have some question during the process. 😉
John is right about subwoofers adding space when "it is done properly", but that "properly" isn't proprietary or exclusive to REL products, other manufactures of quality subs can and do perform this same sense when set up properly.
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
This is true, though it does require a subwoofer that is exceptionally fast and responsive, and able to blend with the system's main loudspeakers in a truly seamless way. Some subwoofers from other manufacturers can achieve this, though every REL model is designed with this priority in mind.
@andrewcrossley2448
2 жыл бұрын
That was my though when I demoed a MA AV system based on their Radius 90 speakers and the big matching MA 390 sub. To me the sub did not sound integrated into the soundstage in stereo. It was good in AV. I returned to compare the MA sub to a REL and could instantly tell the soundstage was more refined and 3D with the REL T Zero. It was better value for money as well as being smaller. I have since bought a second REL T Zero (Mk 3) and tuned both RELs as a stereo set up with the special cables and with help from the REL after sales team in the U.K. The step up in sound quality was about 50% again over a single sub. I then needed to add a very good stereo amp with direct in from the AV preamp to drive my front set up to its optimum potential. The sound with classical music of the MA Radius 90s on their stands with a T Zero wired to each is superb. The new amp is a Marantz 8006 so the stereo system is now 170w per channel into 8 ohms. Very deep music such as a cathedral organ is amazing. Shut your eyes and you can imagine you are in that huge space. My only constraint is my medium sized lounge. I think it would be even more impressive in a larger room. Of course, I don’t crank up the volume or I’d be deaf. The immense power reserve of this set up ensures the true dynamics of top end vinyl and MQA hiRes are shown off to their full potential. The amp doesn’t need to go above about 11 o’clock. The AV amp was often at 2 o’clock as the little MAs are inefficient to drive. My good Marantz AV amp couldn’t achieve this dynamic alone. Using the 8006 in either front drive mode and especially in stereo makes a real difference. The downside was the extra £1500 for the amp and second sub. The phono preamp stage of the 8006 is so good that I have disconnected my iFi phono preamp which is also very good but an unnecessary extra music stage. For HiRes I use an iFi signature DAC.
I’m sure this was mentioned by someone, but the space blooms also simply because you crossed over to the sub, and the AMP works a lot less effortlessly to drive the main speakers - which are now working a lot more effortlessly because it doesn’t have to produce the low end. Accordingly, REL has many “sub” woofers, that aren’t actually “sub” woofers…. And they “sound” great because the amps in the woofer are doing a specific part of the range, leaving the AMP or / and in the processor/pre - and main speakers to manage the other part. This alone is a reason worth putting a sub in the system. Now, the question one should ask, is how does it sound when the mains are driven full range and a real “sub”woofer (below 20Hz) is in the system. That’s where the rubber meets the road.
@tested211
Жыл бұрын
Why does the amp have to work less? Because the overall volume can be set lower now that you have additional volume added by the sub? (so the amp was on 10 before but now the sub is adding some volume, the amp can now run on 7 yet still give the impression of the same overall volume in the room?)
@mikewinburn
Жыл бұрын
@@tested211 - great question... not exactly on your summation. remember, if you've level matched all speakers to, say, 75db, your amp has to drive all channels at once (when necessary) to hit that level. (No one listens continually at that level though...that more peak level.) if you take the sub out of equation (since it has its own amp), the Amp has less work to do. The main speakers still need to be driven at the same volume to reach 75 db, though. (Or in your illustration, the AMP still needs to be on 10, its just doing it more effortlessly / efficiently.) So, it's more like, there's more reserve power for the mains when the AMP doesn't have to drive sub 80 hz, let alone sub 20 hz frequencies. here's a great way to describe it. Imagine running a 100 yard dash in 10 seconds... with a 20 lb weigh vest on. Take off the weight vest . . . you still run the 100 yrs in 10 secs (just takes less effort). :) hope that helps.
love our John
@luke.boxall
2 жыл бұрын
so much❤️
Can’t wait to get a Rel sub…but I’ve first got to get my room modes under (better) control.
Can't listen to my B&W's without them now. Looking forward to adding a Predator 1508 to pair with my two S3's Sho subs.
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
We are glad to hear that you are enjoying the performance of the S/3s in your system!
That was a very interesting explanation. I'm off to demo a T9x tomorrow. Not sure how much of an improvement a sub will make as my main speakers go down pretty low anyway.
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for your interest in REL, and we hope that you like the performance of the T/9x during your demo! If you have any questions about it then feel free to let us know and we will be happy to assist.
Hi John, would the 212/SX be appropriate for a 400 square foot room?
@Steveh817
2 жыл бұрын
You can email REL and give them your room dimensions and speakers and they will give you recommendations. They were quick to respond to me. Good luck
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
The 212/SX can perform well in a 400 square foot room, though the ideal subwoofer for your system will depend on a few additional variables. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to discuss the ideal subwoofer pairing for your system.
Q: The sense of space by reflected back sound shall not be unique by low frequency sound wave only? Q: Most musical materials lack of
@RELAcoustics
Жыл бұрын
Thank you for reaching out. Many musical instruments have fundamental frequencies below 60Hz, such as a piano, bass (upright double bass and bass guitar), organ, and many percussion instruments to name a few. By adding a subwoofer, your home audio system will be enabled to produce output closer to the full range of human hearing, which will more accurately produce the fundamental frequencies of many instruments while also accurately reproducing the reverberations and resonances that occur when these instruments are played in a room. We hope that this helps, but if you have any additional questions about subwoofers or how to incorporate a REL subwoofer into your system then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.
I love my no 25 ;)
So does this only works in very large rooms
@rshearn
2 жыл бұрын
I don't think so because I have two s812's paired with the Tanoy Ardens which have 15" drivers in what I would say a small 15 x 30 foot room and they still sound amazing. Looking forward to moving into a place with a bigger listening space but for now I couldn't be happier. Macintosh c2600, mono block mc275, 2 rel s812's and the Tannoy Ardens and they sound amazing together. Happy Listening
@RELAcoustics
2 жыл бұрын
This same effect can be achieved in small listening rooms, as long as you are using the right sized sub for your room and speakers. If you would like assistance with determining the ideal subwoofer match for your system, then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.