Additional observations with the faulty motor. The motor bearings are completely free to move within the end caps, such that the bronze bearing can rotate in all directions very easily. While running initially freely (71mA) the motor will suddenly falter and slow down and the current draw goes high, more noise is observed at the same time. Flexing one of the shafts returns the motor to free running for a short time. I smoothed off all the score marks on the commutator and re-polished it. I also skimmed the top layer of the brushes noting the same black powdery deposit coming away. I then reassembled and ran the motor for two hours. On re-inspection the commutators was again scored although not as bad as originally and copper lines were noted in the brush faces. The motor ran warm even at 71mA and became hot at +100mA

@rogerking7258

2 жыл бұрын

If I understand correctly, the bearings are actually able to spin within their housings. With most bearing designs, the bearings should be firmly fitted in their housings and the only movement should be the shaft rotating inside the bearings. I would suggest using a Loctite retainer to hold the bearings firmly in their housings, but this will only work if the housing is metallic. If it's plastic, a small drop of Roket Max glue might do the job. It will be important to ensure that once secure, the bearings are aligned and the shaft is dead straight. I wonder if the varying current draw is due to changing levels of friction as the motor is running due to loose bearings allowing this alignment moving around. I strongly suspect that I'm just teaching you to suck eggs with this one, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@rogerking7258 hi Roger, no far from it a very useful observation. I need to check they can spin. What they can do is move within the housing which is plastics. You could well have a point because when the motor starts to fail there is vibration and wild speed changes. I'll try and look into this Sunday when I am off work and report back. Cheers

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@rogerking7258 I couldn't wait and opened it up, both bearings are super loose, easily able to spin. I need to do some testing

@GeneralPurposeVehicl

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited the bearing are supposedd to be a little loose to allow for missalignment. They are ball shaped, right?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@GeneralPurposeVehicl Hi, sorry for the delay I saw your comment but had a hard time tracking it down, yes they are ball shaped.

What an excellent analyses and educational video. This is invaluable knowledge on a subject that is not talked about enough within the model railway community. This is a real maintenance video!

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks so much David

That was absolutely fascinating, thoroughly enjoyable. If your not sure what is causing the issue then were screwed. Regards Chris

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Chris, lol I feel sure its the brushes just now

Thank you for an excellent update. I agree with your comments regarding manufacturers responsibility or the lack of it! You seem to be on the right track with your fault diagnosis. I look forward to seeing any further developments. It will be good to hear if you find a source of replacement motors. Kind regards. David.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers David, most kind, yes while mine is fixed the investigations continue!

Very good troubleshooting with this Mike!

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers Tim, yes getting used to it lol

I'm glad I found this video, as it confirms all my suspicions that I had about the motor I pulled out of my B12 that did the exact same thing! I replaced it with a motor from one of Hornby's O1 classes, it had the same dimensions but had a silver casing instead of the black one. Unfortunately being not very handy taking the fly-wheels off and on again was the hardest part but its running better now at least. Looking forward to seeing alternate suggestion for these motors, such a disgrace.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much, glad it's interesting. Excellent job replacing your one 👏 👍

Very interesting observations. I'm pleased you persevered with it. One thing from my experience, I often find small discrepancies in resistances in armature windings up to maybe .5 ohm. Not always a problem I've found. I think now it's back up and running a good test under working conditions back in a loco would be interesting. Good video. All the best to you

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks indeed, I was wondering if it was important, the B12 has been hard at it ever since and has carried on at 100mA even under load. I am aiming for 6+ hours. Thanks for checking in

Glad a fair few of my locomotives have the ring field motor some are decades old and going strong. It seems to me that the modern motors vary in quality. Great video very informative. Thanks for showing. Regards Paul.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Paul, agreed, I honestly looked at putting an xo4 in her but it's way to big lol

@MrShepardDog

2 жыл бұрын

When they were made in the UK....

@paulcherrytrains3339

2 жыл бұрын

If you mean Hornby they completely moved production to china in 1999 having started moving production in 1995. I believe the B12 at least appeared as a Triang version which was made in the UK.

Good video . I have no idea of the technicalities , but what I have deduced is that these motors are not fit for purpose . It’s absolutely deplorable that these have been offered for sale with what is probably known as a problematical motor . I’d send this to Hornby and tell them they are further flushing their once good name down the pan !

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Russell, yeah it's a very poor show for sure.

Fascinating investigation. I am Absolutely all at sea with 'Can motors..!' And with my 65yr old ( possibly Parkinsons) wobbles. Bits would be flying everywhere. But great to see and get a Great Description of a Dodgy motor. Very enlightening Video, even if it's beyond my Abilities..!! Cheers kim in Oz. 😎

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Kim, nice to meet you and thanks for watching, yes very fine stuff these days. Take care, Mike

Well done Mike, great Photography in a difficult circumstance, it’s a pity that Model-train Hero's like yourself have to invest so much time in finding faults in our now very expensive hobby when surely Hornby should have done what you are doing in their workshops as soon as the problem had arisen because this is not the first time that this problem as raised its head. And yes the retailer is not stupid they surely must have smelt a rat when they were offered a low price for this model and similar models or is that just me being paranoid this reminds me of Class 66 that I and lots of other modelers bought from Hatton's and all the problems that caused, and that was left up to the consumer to come up with a solution. Once again thank you for all your efforts I will be playing this Video at our next club meeting here in Perth Western Australia Best regards to all Bill Pickering

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Very many thanks Bill, yes you are spot on, we really should not have to do this. What happened with the 66?

@bpresolve

2 жыл бұрын

I bought a Hatton's Class 66 with sound, second hand but it rocked from side to side and the axle boxes kept flying off into the ether, it turned out that the bogie tolerances were out and the Axles were rubbing on the bogies so it was out with the drilling machine. This also was all over the internet and was fixed by another disgruntled purchaser and Hatton’s then started to discount the model. Pity really, other than that it was a great loco. Sadly no longer with me. Best regards Bill

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@bpresolve thanks Bill, I never picked up on this, out of my era lol. Very bad form, hope the 4 and 6 wheel coaches are ok

Huh very Interesting discovery you found Cheers Jasper & Willow

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks guys

My experience from old Triang open frame 3 pole motors is over lubrication softens the carbon brushes and the oil carbon mix shorts across the gaps in the comutator. I used to use a pin to remove the carbon fron the gaps and metho to remove the excess oil. The excessive clearances in bearings often is not easily corrected, and can cause unwanted noise from vibration. As for modern motors, I dont waste my time trying to repair them, because replacement motors are available at low prices.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Terry, that's true for sure. Some motors are not that cheap unless you know where to look

I had to do this to my MTH UP Big Boy and finally got it working as it should late last year.

Really interesting video. I too am a little suspicious of these box shifter flash sales offering massive discounts on just a handful of high-end locomotives. From memory these have been used before to offload stock of potentially troublesome locomotives on to unsuspecting buyers looking for a bargain. Very naughty! Just goes to prove how important it is to test a locomotive throughly as soon as you buy it rather than once round the track then return it to the box for 6 months.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Paul, it's a hard one to judge. My B12 just like the S15 before it, passed it's running in phase and went on to run well thereafter. The only indicator was the high current then all of a sudden, slow down, erratic running, massive current draw, smoke and fut.

Once again it's the wretched motors! The B12 can now join the hallowed ranks of the S15, the melting Class H, Adams Radial, 700 and the 'new' Terrier with its random speed and occasional full-stop features. Why is it that not one of my Bachmann motors, although sometimes noisy, give any trouble?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Andrew, yes it's a sad story for sure, very much depressing me

Really interesting. Clearly a motor design fault.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Don, some are fine, think it's a duff batch

This video is very informative and interesting, especially for a non-electrical engineer such as myself. I bought my B12 thinking that the were cheap because the first BR livery is not popular, it being so short-lived. Unfortunately, I seemd to have been wrong. At the risk of famous last words, my model is still okay but I have only run it for 5 minutes or so at a time.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jeffrey, might be worthwhile giving it a good run

@jeffreysmith156

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited True but, if it is going to go wrong on me, I would rather spread it out for as long as possible before it does.

I think you should one of the good motors just for curiousness and a definite comparison, anyways glad it’s sorted . Regards fred

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Oooo Fred I know you are right but I just can't bring myself to do it, if I get some viable spares in I will.

Dear Dr Mike. What a Brilliant Autopsy. I had a problem with a Chinese Orbital Sander. The bearing was the issue and it was Designed to Break. I really beleive that Chinese Manufactured Electrical Products all have these faults built into them to shorten the working life, thus increasing sales. Why the Brand Owners aren't on top of this Beggars Beleif. At the end of the day it's Short Term Gain Long Term Pain. As for Recalls, I think the costs involved are factored in and the " Seconds " are pushed out through Discount Retailers. How does Hornby Deal With It. Everything has to go through quality control. If it isn't right, the Contractor is Duty Bound to correct it whether its a New Motor, Bearings or Body, that way they don't enter the Market. It's Damage to the Brand in the future. It's not possible in this age to conceal poor quality, it can't be shipped off on the QT to someone unsuspecting. You've just Proved It. Excellent Video Hornby Be Warned ⚠️

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Tim, big lol on Dr. Mike, 😄 yes you do wonder such things I have to say, something false about Chinese products and that's just factual not at all racist it does seem Hornby has fixed the issue now, but no new motors are in stick anywhere. Hattons never said these B12s were anything other than brand new, I suppose we have to trust they were unaware, however they must be now. Thanks as ever for your thoughts

Well here we are again Mike - same old problem - a bugger and a pain. I've bought 2 of these bargain b12s, yet to test either - so should be very interesting! Fantastic analysis on the failed motor - very interesting indeed! A few thoughts - the grease - clearly some sort of liquid substance all over the commutator. To my mind there should be no grease/liquid at all on a commutator - if it's non-conductive, surely that'd encourage a poor connection to the commutator, which would produce arcing and therefore brush damage. If it's conductive, then surely that'd encourage current flow between the plates of the commutator which should be isolated. My conclusion is the grease shouldn't be there... so have the bearings been over lubricated, and some has seeped in? The scoring is very interesting too - the big question is whether it originated from the brushes or from the commutator plates. By design, the commutator material should be much harder than the brush material, so I'd bet the scoring originates from the commutator... but I can't think why? I wonder how the commutators are manufactured and assembled? Wonder if part of that process is damaging them? If my B12s are faulty when I test them, I'll disassemble my motors and see if there are any similarities. Thanks for the great work - fascinating stuff! Sam :)

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers Sam, it's been suggested that the gunk could be copper oxide formed due to the heating. Can you test the current drawn by your two? If it's less than 150mA you might be OK. I'm going to dig out one of my S15 failed motors and see if it's the same, if it is I'll try and slice the brushes as I still think they have impurities it them causing the scoring. Interesting but so painful and unnecessary. Cheers for the kind comments

I had a Hornby Class 31, ordered in the Hatton's sale, arrive with gear slipping. So far the replacement has been running ok but any slightly different noise makes me have slight panic and I check the axles just in case it has the same defect (I could turn the problem axle by hand while the others were all locked on the first loco). I don't know what's going on for so many Hornby locos to be going wrong, I have not had a loco made by another manufacturer have issues only Hornby ones have either had motors fail, valve gear fall apart on first running or not be properly connected to drive wheels. If the models aren't fit for purpose they should be recalled as you said, with replacement parts so that these issues don't arise, or intercepted before heading to retailers. Better a slightly late but well running model than one that seemingly has corners cut and doesn't work right out of the box.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly, I agree with all you said. I know that panic feeling, spoils it for me.

@JamesSmith-mv9fp

2 жыл бұрын

It's called "Quality Control" or in this case a lack of it. I suspect Hornby have simply not paid PIKO (Ex East German RTR manufacturer), for "Quality Control", who now manufacturer Hornby's models in their new plant near Canton PRC. Indicated by the fact that the motor seen in the programme above is of the same type as ones found in PIKO models. PIKO incidentally were always regarded in Germany as a rather 2nd rate organisation !

@JamesSmith-mv9fp

2 жыл бұрын

It's called "Quality Control" or in this case a lack of it. I suspect Hornby have simply not paid PIKO (Ex East German RTR manufacturer), for "Quality Control", who now manufacturer Hornby's models in their new plant near Canton PRC. Indicated by the fact that the motor seen in the programme above is of the same type as ones found in PIKO models. PIKO incidentally were always regarded in Germany as a rather 2nd rate organisation !

Hi Mike. Small motors often have self aligning bearings. After reassembly give then a sharp rap on the bench. It may not be applicable in this case but worth checking before and after current to see if it helps. The bearings are often sintered bronze. These are oil loaded. If the motor has been in storage for extended time then it is possible some oil can migrate to the commutator as you said and mess with the brushes.

@johnd8892

2 жыл бұрын

One point of advantage of sintered bronze bearings is that they absorb oil like a sponge I could see excess oil being a big problem but have not heard of oil migrating from sintered bronze bearing over time. Have to search to see if this is possible.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, good point

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Let me know what you discover John!

@gs425

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnd8892 certainly when I worked for a company making similar miniature motors, if you laid sintered bearings on a piece of paper and left for a while the paper would show oil marks. Shouldn't really be enough to travel onto commutator though, and that's what the end thrust washer is for...to fling oil off from bearing before it reaches copper. That's why its often a close fit. Something else is going on here. I suspect the carbon had rogue material in it. Hence the grooves.

Yep got my B12's out of their boxes & guess what! Same old trouble. I was going to open one up but I haven't your skills. Probably will now under your guidance. They fail after a while of behaving themselves so some degradation is indicated and the obvious suspect has to be the brush commutator interface. The horrific close ups show the smoking gun? (Or should that be smokin' motor?). My guess is if you kept the motor running the hard inserts in the brushes would just carve deeper grooves in the commutator, and it would fail again, unless the gunk you removed was some amalgam of grease & brush material (effectively conductive grease). Really looking forward to your follow-up episodes. Thank you for all you are doing for us. An inspirational insight into logic fault finding & a damming comment on Hornby's "marketing". Hattons complicit? Jury's out on that one.......

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Chris, really sorry to hear that, does this affect all B12s ever made I wonder. Yes the way they fail is sneaky, all seems well then bang. There are some alternatives and I am working hard to find and test them.

@chrisvaughan159

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Guess so Mike, at least for all those using the X7083 motor. Of course Hornby know exactly what's afoot. Like you, I want the model not money back. My BR B12 came from Hattons, the LNER one from Willo's (actually because Hornby raked Willo's over & didn't supply them they sourced from Amazon for me - totally unexpected and welcome).I'll be 'phoning Hattons tomorrow to see how the land lies. If they are not culpable I guess they may well get their fingers burnt over this. Thanks for researching alternate motors. I will be very interested in your results, meanwhile, lets get cleaning that motor.......

@chrisvaughan159

2 жыл бұрын

I've contacted Hornby upon advice from Hattons. Hornby have agreed to repair the units so I'm sending the chassis' only back to them, to ensure my detailing isn't put "at risk". I'll let you know what happens, just hope I don't go through the amount of motor replacements you did with your S15.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@chrisvaughan159 Hi Chris that's good news, hope they have a new batch of motors to fit. Good luck

@chrisvaughan159

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Afternoon Mike, Hope everything is well with you. I've just had a reply from Hornby (who still have my 2 x B12 chassis). They are waiting for a new batch of motors to be delivered......The experiences you had with your '15 proves they can find motors that work, so I'm keeping everything crossed!

I got one from Hattons at the bargain price. I believe they were 2016 issue and Hattons may have picked them up from a model shop closing or bankrupt stock. I ran my first on DC to run it in and it was very slow. I have a slight incline on my layout and it couldn't get up it with only 2 MK1 coaches. I bit the bullet and fitted the Hatton 8 pin decoder I got at the same time. Once running in DCC the loco ran smoothly and coped with 5 MK1's up the incline. Bit of a mystery of why though. Thanks for your informative video's.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much Peter, interesting to hear.

@robertgates7686

2 жыл бұрын

Locos fitted with a decoder have a feature called back emf which compensates for the model going up and downhill and alters the voltage to keep the speed constant like a car cruise control. It is usually explained in the decoder instruction manual. Some more expensive DC controllers also have this feature. Sorry, but other than that materials of the brushes being of the wrong conductivity and causing overheating I cannot offer an explanation of the poor performance of the motor. The brush material does look rather crumbly compared to the old Hornby X03 motors which were very hard and dense.

Hope you send a copy of this investigation to Hornby. Would be very interested in their response and (b/s) explanation! I tend to go with cheap, inferior materials being used and no proper checks being done throughout the manufacturing process.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, I honestly doubt they'd be interested :(

@chipofftheoldblock1109

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited No harm in trying!

I completely agree with everything said in this video, same thing happened with my Hornby D16.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks but sorry to hear of your troubles. Is it the same motor type?

@timbervalleyproductions

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited I think so, yes

I know it's not the same kind of motor ( but its still springs & brushes on a copper commutator) but 00Bill opens and cleans 20/30 year old motors and they are in much better condition than your 'new' one .

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Adrian, yep I service my old Triang stuff and I've never seen such an issue before.

Great Video could you do one showing how to get the motor out of the frame &removing the flywheel

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, you need a worm puller, a vice and a hammer. It's a pain but can be done with care

I think what you will find is one of the brush angle's was bent in towards the commutator to far and may have initially jammed and caused the scoring I have also found myself a brush that was bent in half, so as you suspect just a case of poor assembly and often the cheaper motors are the exact same thing just rebranded.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

That's an interesting idea, certainly one was not even

Hi, That was a really interesting investigation into your motor problem. That's quite a long motor too, I assume the long armature it intended to smooth out that cogging even more. The brushes and commutator really were a mess and really not what you want to be seeing. I think as you say they have been lubricated and it has crept into the motor body. Also Is it possable the motor shaft could be bent slightly, would that cause some of your issues? Anyway whatever you shouldn't be finding issues like this in a model costing so much, it seems the price you are paying is not for the quality of the mechanism, only the eye candy of the bodywork and decoration, which is lovely, but not much good if it doesn't run properly. Is there any further update on this journey planned, as i'd like to hear the final outcome. Thanks for a great video, all the best Dave.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Dave, most kind. Well the new motor fitted to the B12 is going well, far better than the original. I smoothed off the commutator today in the bad one and skimmed the brushes, while it was better it started to fail later. My plan is to find a source of alternate motors that can be simply fitted.

Another hobby I have is slot car racing. The concensus we have reached is not to oil the brush end motor bearings. Too many smokey and inconsistent motors arising from oil migrating to the brushes and commutator. Even when being careful to be sparing with oil One higher end car maker agreed there was a design issue with a new motor type and replaced them free of charge with the improved design No problems with no oil on brush side bearing even after many multi hour endurance racing at high speed and using dynamic braking. Cars from 25 years ago still running fine. Can motors with different internal makeup but looking like the most common Scalextric motor of the past thirty years. When I get round to running my B12 from a few years back I will not be putting any oil near the brush end and report back. Does not help if the usual annual batch of factory workers used the more is better approach without the correct training and instructions.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Many thanks for the detailed comment. I've never seen such an issue as this before. Modern motors seem able to keep oil away from the commutator. Not oiling both bearings would result in noise and wear given the flywheels and stresses of worm drive.

I would replace the motor in mine but quite unfortunately while mine was running in it decided to derail on a point then plumit of the edge of the baseboard onto the solid concrete floor completely bending the chassis so the wheels no longer touch the track. The tender pickups did not touch the wheels at all.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Oh my god that's a horrible story, so sorry for you

@Samstrains what do you make of this mate?

A good deep dive, so few folks do this type of level of repair. Have a look to see if there is brush carbon between the commutator plates (i.e. the slots in it) - this is a very common place for build up to occur which will gradually then semi-short the commutator. It may well be between the plates that measure 7 Ohms, there is more build up. The brushes may well be hard, albeit, the grooving in the comm could be down to arcing when it was drawing high current (which is why it should always be stopped immediately a problem starts to surface). This is not exclusive to hornby - comm cleaning of slots is necessary maintenance on any motor, though I've seen some N gauge models where a brush change has helped, as well as polishing the edges of the commutator plates so they act less like scouring blades and reduce carbon wear and slot build up.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi many thanks. That's a good tip for sure, but one I carried out with a scalpel between the segments. I am tempted to try and polish the groves out, then skim the brush faces and see what happens then???

@petert9749

2 жыл бұрын

Yes Dr...; but how do we obtain replacement brushes? I would like to say more, but I have no idea what the legal situation is with public comments. Peter T

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@petert9749 I think this goes deeper than the brushes now, we might be looking at wrong voltage motors, not confirmed but possible

@petert9749

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Yes, but still leaves the problem of spare part brushes in general. I was thinking over this motor (I don't know what that implies about my state of unmind?). It could be something as simple as the bent over clips clamping the bearings out of alignment and thus binding. The length of the motor seems to be an attempt to overcome the inefficiencies of skewing the armature; using a 5 slot armature would probably have been a better option. Am happy to make further comments; you have my email. Thanks for responding. Peter T

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@petert9749 cheers Peter, my latest finding is that the good motors have almost double the impedance coil to coil than the bad ones. It's been suggested that the bad ones could be a 6v type, what do you think?

Another great and very informative video! :) Could the composition of the graphite brushes be a consideration?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Peter thanks very much, yes I feel sure this is the problem

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@barnabyjoy well no, but what we can see very clearly tells us either the commutator was made with those deep scores or the brushes have caused it. 🤔 Hornby should be the ones to pay for any scientific investigation

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@barnabyjoy I don't think anyone has said anything libelous! A brand new product was purchased and failed and due to no possible replacement the end user has investigated and given an educated guess as to what might be happening. And this is far from the first time this has happened to me with the same brand. With an almighty saga around the S15 with same motor and the 4MT similar motor. Also just now my B12 is galloping around the track with its new motor drawing just 100mA and has a stall current less than the original motor was drawing from the get go. I do accept that the commutator could be at fault due to heat of course, but my 40+ years of modelling and servicing motors makes me think the brushes are the issue. Moreover this is not an isolated issue with nearly everyone having to return or repair themselves. I would very much take issue with your idea that I am being vindictive! Had the model been fit for purpose this video would never of happened and the reason it has happened is to inform others and offer tips on what they might choose to do if they suffer the same thing. I believe I can legitimately express my disappointment with the model and its manufacturers without my being vindictive or libelous in any way.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@barnabyjoy of course you can have your position. If someone wants a virgin failing motor to formally test I am happy to supply it. But I certainly can't stump up for the tests nor need the stress of trying to crowd fund it. Any outcome would still be invalid as questions would always be asked about how I treated the motor. I honest suspect that Hornby or their supplier already know the answer to this as their later motors of the same design do not fail. Best regards

Very interesting video. Had the same problem with my B12 (double shaft) and in the similarly motored B1 (same casing but single shaft). Didn't have the skill to diagnose the motor to the degree you have so bought a replacement with the same casing but only had the motor shaft on one side. Think this was used on earlier models (R2848 Castle according to the shop I used. Made in 2009 to 2011) so makes me wonder if this has been a manufacturing change gone wrong in newer batches of motors?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info! Yeah my feeling is the was a big batch of duff or wrong voltage motors used. Be nice if Hornby would come clean and offer good replacements for those that need them in line with what other companies have done in the past.

@br60066

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Think we can only dream about replacement motors......

Is there a good reason for putting an electric motor inside a sealed tin can? Looking at the black grease gunge, the overly tight brushes, the score marks on the commutator, and the possible over heating, it doesn’t make sense to seal it inside a tin can. But perhaps there is a genuine benefit. I’m no expert on these matters. It would be a shame if motors became un-serviceable, and we just have to cross our fingers and hope that they work.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi David, the only benefit I can see is it makes them un-serviceable! I'd much prefer something open to dissipate heat and allow inspection

That scoring absolutely shocked me. Ive only seen thag on really big things. I would replace the motor with one by kato.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

8 ай бұрын

Thanks, never seen a Kato motor are they good?

Only third in but looks to me like it’s catching, as you can see a clear rub mark on one of the side’s

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

new to the channel... very interesting.. new to the hobby, well new to being able to afford to buy locos... question.. what,s the ferrite bead do? am thinking it would short across legs but thats a guess... Have subscribed look forward to checking out your other vids.. Dave..

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hey Dave welcome. The ferrite bead helps to stop radio interference as does the capacitor, combined like this is really good. A good guess but no it can't short out.

Hi there, I also bought a B12 in the sale, and I really appreciate these informative videos, so thanks for making them. I’m not sure if mine is faulty, since I haven’t had a chance to run it in, test its current draw, or take it apart. I’m 16 so I don’t really want this to become too big of a project for me. Since replacement motors from Hornby are so expensive, I’ve been thinking of buying a different type (such as Taff Vale or Mashima) and 3D-printing a new motor-mount to fit it. Could you please answer a few questions I had in order to help? 1. What are the dimensions of the original Hornby motor (in particular: the widths across flat sides and across round sides; the length excluding the shaft; the length and diameter of the shaft; the length over flywheels)? 2. Do you know what rpm (and even power output?) are expected from the Hornby motor (when they don’t fail)? 3. Does the mechanism drive off the motor by attaching to its shaft or by sitting in a socket in the flywheel? It’s difficult to tell from images. 4. Did you find there were any problems when you replaced your S15 motor with a Taff Vale one, and are there any problems you can foresee occurring for me? I would really appreciate this information since otherwise I won’t know whether or not I am best off returning it all-together. I’m not sure how much time I have in which I can return it if it’s not worth the effort. Thank you very much in advance

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi, the dimensions are in the info box of the video before this one. I did try the Taff's Vale motor but it to struggled but did not burn out. I checked pickups pressure on loco wheels and found it too hard, I found the worm drive to be dry. Once sorted the loco added 55mA load to the new motor which runs at 100mA now. The old motor that failed ran at 140mA initially quickly rising to 200mA after run in. The motor does indeed drive via a short shift that clips in the flywheel. I don't know the expected output. I am seeking alternative motors and will report back. If your loco is defective I'd recommend sending it back, you should have many months to do this but failure occurs after around 6 hours total running hope this helps

@user-oc7jh3hw6e

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited That’s really useful info, thank you. I’ll try running it for that time and send it back if it fails.

Its possible that the lower resistance coil could have been a manufacturing fault which then caused the overheating and damage to the commutator, instead of being a short caused by overheating. I.E. Cause and effect maybe the reverse of what you suspect. Also, squashing the gunk from the commutator onto a clean tissue would have made a clear mark if oil or grease were present.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Good points

I see another Railway KZreadr has had both his recent Hatton's purchased B12s fail. He is not happy of course. He is running a poll. Several thousand responses. 91% had not bought the model. 4% each for problems and no problem. However some of the comments saying the motor run warm. As you allude to this is another indicator of a problem developing. Other comments that they have only run the model for a minute or so . So maybe the no problem models have had minimal running. Given the acquisitive collector nature of a large part of the hobby perhaps many have had minimal running. A few comments refer to your more rigorous analysis. Hatton's and Hornby were approached but stated they were unaware of the motor issues before they had attention drawn to it. Thanks for your good work with this.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi John, thanks very much, do you have a link to the other channel?

@johnd8892

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Sams Trains recent community posts. Not easy to link to. Although not to happy with Sam over his depiction of those with disabilities in his April's fools vid. For a laugh apparently. KZread demonitising many channels lately.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnd8892 Thanks John, oh yes, I could not watch.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@johnd8892 Thanks again John, how does he get so many views and comments compared to me lol

@johnd8892

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited looks like Sam eventually saw how offensive and not funny at all it was and has now taken it down to minimise the damage.

well i have a few motors coming from china hopefully one might fit and work so fingers crossed

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent, let me know how you get on

Wow, I have been using motors like this and othes for many many years in slot cars, R/C model boats and lately model trains in the past 5 yrs.. I have Never seen an armature with that kind of scoring in all my years.. I would be very interested to see if you followed this up and what you found was the culprit.. I have read all of the comments below and there are some great minds out there... The only thing I can think of is that there was some impurity in the brush material and added with the excess pressure of the unaligned brush arms scored the armature plates thus causing the issue and possibly some grease in the assembly process to align things or (like in vehicle motors they put a small amount of build oil on things to aid when it first starts until the engine oil gets everywhere)... may have been added. I would very much love to know what the outcome was as my post is 2 years after the publishing of this video.... Thanks for the great informative video and investigation ... surely Hornby would see this kind of video of use and use it for future motor issue investigations.. It would be very interesting to see if Hornby did at least do anything about investigating this issue or just replaced that motor with another type or a different one completely. I will keep my eye out for these motors when I am repairing locos for others. Cheers from Melbourne Australia. Tim.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

17 күн бұрын

Hey Tim. Nice to meet you ☺️ this motor type has given more issues than any other. I can only imagine it is the result of a bad batch as when I replaced with an exact same type that I purchased from China for around £1.50 there is no further issue. I had a Dapol motor fail, immediately replaced by Dapol. They are more open. Basically it's pointless sending back to China as they just don't care. They make 50k motors and 1000 fail does not bother them, they only cost a few pence to make, why you making a fuss. What they don't get is the huge costs of the models they are fitted in. Maybe we just need a better motor?

I have a question about the suppression capacitor (at 4:06). What pins did you solder the leads to? The NMRA/NEM standard for 8-pin decoder plugs says pin 1 is for motor right and pin 5 is for motor left. I can't fully see it but it looks like one of the cap leads is soldiered to pin 1 and the other to pin 4 (left rail). My B12 runs OK, but I am concerned about the motor failing, since I am in the US and can't find an equivalent motor. The factory suppression cap failed so I want to add a new one for arc suppression until I chip the loco.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi, I can't recall now but I tested the connections to find the ones direct to the motor and used them. Of course the blanking plug commons up the connections.

@sharkymcsharknose2979

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the advice. I tested with my multimeter to be sure. The new cap is in place, one lead soldered to pin 1 and one lead soldered to pin 5. Everything seems to work OK.

My B12 has just gone the same way, 500mA.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Oh no! Get onto Hornby apparently they have a new batch of motors coming and are finally aware

Both my Hornby B12s are running smooth and are a delight to watch. But then again, they've only run about 4 or 5 hours total each.... Does this problem manifest itself after a great deal of usage?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi, well mine came after around 6 hours total running, so maybe yours will be fine, I really hope so

@MrShepardDog

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Maybe it was a new person at the Shine Dew Industrial Company in Shenzhen or whomever the Chinese manufacturer is. Maybe she wound a few coils too loosely or the wire didnt have enough insulation or whatever, and she had already assembled 20 or 30 motors before the problem was noticed. So those 20 or 30 bad quality motors got assembled into finished locos and shipped, and ..... here we are...

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrShepardDog I suspect something like that, but I'd say it was a good few hundred that are wrong given the numbers of issues seen.

gosh those brushes are delicate little things. i'm what's known as an elderly person so my model train experience is with older products, i started with trix and then tri-ang but then found lima and mainline to be surprisingly nice runners. have you any views on the best of the older stuff please?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Ian, many thanks. Mainline stock is great and can easily be upgraded by replacing the wheels with metal ones from Hornby. If you check back through my videos I feature older stuff often.

@iandouglas451

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited thank you, could i ask what you reckon to the mainline locos please?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@iandouglas451 Hi Ian, I still run several, they are of an age now where things are starting to fail, my class 45 for example and Warship are both unhappy awaiting me to sort them out. My Std class 4 runs fine still. Maybe I'll have a Mainline day video soon

@iandouglas451

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited i have a class 45, one of my favourites but devil of a job getting all the wheels sitting happily on the track, not sure why that it is a problem. there was a comment made by sam of sam's trains that he was relieved to pass his mainline locos on implying he considered them troublesome. thanks for the reply.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@iandouglas451 they are ok but suffer from split gears etc. Beautiful models

See this sort of comm damage on much bigger motors which use four brushes, and one or more of the brushes are not making proper contact.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Paul, I thin k it's impurities in the brush heads on this one, they were rammed hard against the comm

I guess the Laisdcc ones on Aliexpress are a suitable replacement, though not as cheap as the £1.00 ones of old

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Ah yes, lots of options

Copper is added into the brushes so they can be soldered to the arms but should not be harder than the commutator

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Ah that's interesting David, I wonder if they used the wrong type or too much?

@fenman1954

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited not sure, triang brushes have copper coated where soldered only , modern Hornby just seem to buy generic motors as cheap as possible

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@fenman1954 Will need to do some checking I think, cheers

Do you have the motor dimensions? Shaft diameter length width over curve width over flats?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Alan, yes 2mm shaft 35.8mm body 6mm dual shaft 16.6mm biggest width. 12.6mm narrowest width. 12V-24V-High-Speed-Micro-NdFeB-Strong-Magnetic-Mini-130-Motor-DIY-RC-Car-Boat e&oe lol

looking back on your video about your s15 ordered a motor from taff vale it will be here a lot sooner than the ones from china even if its more expensive

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, good luck with it

@ukbluntrazor

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited well got the motor from taf vale 1.50 on shaft of the motor. one fitted in the b12 the shaft is 1.9 or is it 2 so wont fit feel well and truly shafted

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@ukbluntrazor hi, that's very odd indeed, my taff Vale motor is 2mm shaft. Might be worth dropping them a line, very helpful

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

@@ukbluntrazor Did you ask for the 2mm sleeve? At 27mm long and 12mm across flats long it will fit in smaller locos and has potential for use in motor bogies too. 1.5 mm drive shaft. We can supply a sleeve to increase diameter to 2.0mm

@ukbluntrazor

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited yep just read the info properly will give them a call tomorrow yes they do a sleeve to increase the diameter to 2 mm fingers crossed

I got fed up with Hornby. It was the reason why I got out of model railways, even though I still like the hobby. I'm content to watch videos rather than have my own layout.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Well I understand, Bachmann have always been good

@channelsixtysix066

2 жыл бұрын

@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited I'd keep the B12, since you got it at a reduced price. You have replacement motors at a cost of 99p each, so it's not costing anything to fix. It's crap like this that put me off. I did model railways in the 1970s and nearly 50 years on, the same frigging problems abound. Ridiculous.

You should be a college electrical tutor (if you’re not already)

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Lol that's very kind of you. I'm a train driver but did go to college for electronics

205th Like!

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Congratulations

They never learn .....maybe if they done bring back to U K we would see a difference ???..then again ?

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Cheers Dave, yeah that would be good

I liked your careful investigation of the motor. I didn't like the poor quality of the motor and its component parts. Doomed to failure. Rubbish design of the motor. End of story? Another Hornby disaster, another disappointed customer and more Client money down the drain. The Chinese manufacturer will Bank the money, the model railway enthusiast will bin the locomotive and will then buy from another producer in the future.

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Very sad when you put it like that but justified.

Hi Mike....i don't know how you contain any swearing, lets face it Hornby are a disgrace. This problem should have been dealt with a long time ago and there is no excuse for poor motors in this day and age. Are these locos still for sale at a discount?...it may be economical just to fit a different manufacturers in and bingo a good model!

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Andy, thanks. I was more calm this time as at least I have a working model now. It's clear these were old stock, why is the big question to be honest.

The suppressor will NOT protect the motor from HF track cleaners. Indeed HF track cleaners are a major known cause of motor damage, and the first sign is often increased electrical draw. i.e more milliamps. Indeed the better the quality of the motor the quicker damage occurs. HF track cleaners have been around 40+ years, so back in the 1980's when British outline used crude cheap motors they were less of an issue. Indeed the word Frequency should be an alarm bell, as the motor can't be getting pure DC if there is "frequency" in the system. Which means you effectively now have "Half Wave" (half AC half DC) getting to the motor, which causes higher temperatures in the motor. Modern CAN type motors have more trouble dissipating the extra heat because they are fully enclosed. So damage occurs more rapidly, and despite increased power consumption the motor gets steadily weaker, and will pull less & less until it burns out completely, & grinds to a halt !!! A similar issue occurs if you use DCC, as the chip in the loco has to convert AC to DC for the motors benefit. As a proper Rectifier is too large to fit on a chip, the manufacturers have resorted to a tiny electronics solution, using what is known as "Four Diodes in a quadrant". 16vAC goes into the quadrant at two corners and gives out "Half Wave" DC at the other two corners, as it has literally only cut the AC supply in half. This problem means DCC fitted locos suffer more quickly and more frequently from motor burn outs. Which is why there are so many DCC fitted locos (often quite new) with motor issues, on the 2nd hand market !!! If manufacturers were "Honest", they would tell you, that due to the Laws of Physics, you will damage your larger locos from Day 1 by running them on clip together track systems. That in reality a tram would have trouble negotiating. The relevant Physical Law states that "With every degree of curvature you have to increase the power available in the locomotive by the SQUARE ROOT". Which means that a model locomotive the size of "Flying Scotsman" will pull no more than 5 or 6 coaches around a minimum radius 2 curve, but will happily haul at least 12 coaches on 5ft radius curves !!! Of course Hornby & Co would go bankrupt if these facts became common knowledge, and people realised the sharper the curve, results in more and more of the locos power being used just to negotiate the curve. Leaving little power to haul a train. Railway vehicles real & model, do NOT have a Differential in their axles like road vehicles. Which is why real life trains simply can't go around sharp corners, & models break down/burn out more quickly when you try breaking the Laws of Physics !! In other words you need an Industrial Unit, like me, to build your OO scale layout with MINIMUM 5ft radius curves in. If you want to avoid all sorts of derailment problems, unsightly gaps between vehicles and lots of burnt out locos !!!!!! Happy Modelling 😝

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Lol, well James there are lots of things there, respectfully I don't agree with a lot of it. The cap does block hf AC, very efficiently. Your comment about bridge rectification puzzles me, each set of diodes passes the negative or positive cycle of the AC resulting in pure DC with 100hz sinewave. Perfect for DC motors. Dcc uses high frequency pwm resulting in less heating than low frequency pwm we used to find. 90% of model wheels just like the real thing are cones allowing for differing speeds of each wheel as it transitions curves. Thanks for the interesting thoughts

Hi Mike, The design and engineering of the stuff in China is ok but the assembling lacks finesse & knowledge and results in bad end products. Add to that the non existence of Quality Control and you end up with 'junk'. Hornby knows that but the shareholders don't give a 'shit' - there's just no other word for it. Compare the story with the Red Army. Anyway thanks for analyzing. keep our fingers crossed. Success ! Cheers, Filip

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 жыл бұрын

Very good analogy Filip thanks

To me the can motor looks poorly made using poor components . All this work on a new loco is not on !!

@ModelRailwaysUnlimited

2 ай бұрын

Fully agree 💯