The fact that you didn't call this Horizon Zero Shade is killing me Woolie. KILLING ME!

It's not an eastern or western thing. It's a studio thing. Anyone else remember how Dead Space had all the hud elements intergrated on the player character. Most modern games just do the bare minimum in terms of UX.

@cmoon2718

2 жыл бұрын

The Ui of dead space 1 is so good having the hp on the back is one my favorite things ever.

@RahkshiMaster

2 жыл бұрын

it's not an eastern or a western thing, but a lot of the western games industry has a bunch of thinly veiled racism towards Japanese games and developers, haven't you noticed how poorly japan gets represented in most game awards, and this new showing of western devs feeling entirely justified to dunk on a Japanese game just because they think they can get away with making fun of this stupid Japanese game.

@jbark678

2 жыл бұрын

If map marker mainia is minimum, I'm terrified to see what "too much" is.

@ghirahimlefabuleux8984

2 жыл бұрын

@@RahkshiMaster I would argue that it appears to be a western eastern thing because the western AAA industry is so incestuous that it degenerated to a point where every big western games follow a similar formula. If you go to western indies or even smaller European games you will notice that the way of doing things can fluctuate a lot. Oh but I totally agree on the thinly veiled racism of the big western studios towards anything that doesn't follow their standards. The only value I find in the game awards is the occasional interesting trailer for a new game. Everything else is a waste of time.

@Madman6884

2 жыл бұрын

​@@ghirahimlefabuleux8984 Lot of this yeah; pressure to perform and sell well means aping all the trends that are successful, be that UX, open world formulas, chasing the GAS dream, etc. Even back before those specific ones it was always a thing to chase trends (the fighting game boom, for instance), its just that the industry is so massive that its fallen into the same trappings as the movie industry: Pleasing investors by getting high sales and appealing to the widest possible audience (which means super clear UX that can be seen as borderline patronizing, just for the people who need their hand held more).

What blows my mind about the dark souls portion of Elden ring is the pathing through the areas. Sure there's shortcut porn, but there's also like eight different ways to go through the area and they all intersect at points.

@NormalLee67

2 жыл бұрын

I spent at least 10 hours scraping every inch of Stormveil Castle and it wasn’t until hour 6 or 7 that I felt like I had a decent mental map of the place- backtracking and seeing how many places the “stealthy” and “through the front gate” routes linked up and/or were basically the same place fucked me up

@iller3

2 жыл бұрын

that just sounds like "Funneling with extra steps" to me.. it doesn't make me think "Ultime OPEN world!" game

@pocketlint60

2 жыл бұрын

@@iller3 The game is a open world that contains enclosed areas with non-open world design. The non-open areas DO funnel you, because there's ultimately only one endpoint of them, unlike the open world.

@warmpancaxe

2 жыл бұрын

@@NormalLee67 I can completely relate. I laughed my ass off several times because I found a path through a dungeon while exploring that's easier to traverse than the path that I've been throwing myself at for an hour

@NormalLee67

2 жыл бұрын

@@iller3 maybe you should try funneling some bitches into your life

Pat screaming “THEY ARE NOTHING! NOTHING!!” about the Grafted Scion room made me actually cry from laughter. I feel it so hard. The only reason I beat them was because ,after multiple… and I mean MULTIPLE attempts of beating my head against the wall, I shot the one above the item with an arrow and it just… died. Like it straight up just fell like it got knocked off the ceiling instead of it’s normal animation for some reason and died from the fall damage

@OtherBross

2 жыл бұрын

Elden Ring: We take those!

@deeta000

2 жыл бұрын

Whatever, fuck it. You won!

@PaperFlare

2 жыл бұрын

A lot of enemies either spawn above the fall distance to instakill them, or have attacks that launch them high enough to do so. If you can knock them off the walls, or stagger them at the height of the jump, or even just position them so they hit a ceiling texture, you can cheese so many of these enemies. I think the best example is the wolf of radagon in Raya Lucaria. There are rafters, walkways, and the globe all hanging above the room, and if you can get it to do its jump attack into one of these things, it'll side off of them and die of fall damage.

For a while I think AAA western devs have been afraid of people not finishing their games. So they have all the quest markers, objectives and voice acting to make sure you know exactly what to do and when to do it. I don't think Miyazaki/Fromsoft really give a shit if you finish their games, they have no problem with you being stuck on a dungeon or boss for hours, like it or not.

@chrisdaughen5257

2 жыл бұрын

More importantly, they don’t care if you do everything the first time. I’m pretty sure you can go to the last level in Eldin Ring after beating two of the main bosses If your game is fun, players will spend more time to learn everything.

@vj7248

2 жыл бұрын

Yeh it's honestly wild, I understand that if your spending 10 million dollars on some pretty assets for an area you'll want to FORCE the player to LOOK AT THIS MONEY. But for something to feel special, you can't show it off. The player has to stumble across it to make them feel that point of discovery. Miyazaki gets that and I'm glad we can get this style of game despite the 'money showoff' temptation of beeg budget game.

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

Ash lake in Dark Souls 1 wasn’t discovered for a full 3 months until after the release.

@Zangelin

2 жыл бұрын

not all of this is for the better though. The game is amazing but we dont have to act like it foesnt have glaring flaws.

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

@@Zangelin It does have flaws(It crashed 3 times for me) it’s just nice playing something that feels different.

I find it so hilarious that not only did Horizon get overshadowed by a bigger game, but that this video has the main character from Horizon on the thumbnail but these guys overshadow Horizon AGAIN by talking about things that are loosely related to it It's like, "nah we got more interesting topics to go over right now"

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

Who ever was in charge of releasing Horizon should be fired. Legitimately that game should have been released a month before or 2 months after Elden Ring. I was seeing advertisements for that game and was thinking oh right Elden Ring comes out soon.

@ishmaelambrosine6458

2 жыл бұрын

Maybe we can all calm down a bit. Horizon 2 sold very very well. It's not a flop by any means

@Broomer52

2 жыл бұрын

@@ishmaelambrosine6458 it’s not but we all have to admit Horizon is a niche game that not very many played the first time and a sequel to a niche game released at the same time Elden Ring came out and it’s a From Soft game with everything people loved about Soulsborne games mixed into an open world. It’s steep competition and salty devs and Horizon fans aren’t making it look any better.

@darthskele

2 жыл бұрын

@@ishmaelambrosine6458 lol I have a lot of fun with Forbidden West. I hate that this game is the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to open world games. It's fun, the fights are cool and I think it looks gorgeous

@Maxim0M1

2 жыл бұрын

Basically it's so unimportant that even making fun of it feels unimportant.

Open world dialogue feels like the video game equivalent of Zack Snyder using a pop rock song to tell you how to feel

Western Game Devs: "Elden Ring has awful UI/UX!“ Western Games: "Use your joystick to slowly drag this cursor across the menu and hold the A button for 2 seconds to confirm every menu interaction."

@MetalGearRAY675

2 жыл бұрын

That has to be one of the most baffling changes I've seen in recent games. It reminds me of how certain games when ported to PC would have terrible menus because they'd only work with buttons, even though you've got a perfectly good mouse right there. And now we're getting the reverse, these feel like PC menus thrown onto the console version so that they didn't have to design two UIs.

@matrix3509

2 жыл бұрын

I'm willing to bet this "hold button to do every interaction" thing is some usability thing gone amok. I remember when games first started giving people the option of changing mashing inputs to hold inputs for the benefit of people with disabilities, and I thought it was awesome then. Then they started appearing on basically every possible interaction where a simple singular press would have sufficed. I bet you some designer went "What if we did this for EVERY interaction? Then our game will be double compatible for people with disabilities." And then nobody spoke up about how stupid that would be.

@MetalGearRAY675

2 жыл бұрын

@@matrix3509 That doesn't really make sense if you think about it. the benefit to people with disabilities is that mashing is hard, so you replace it with a hold. Changing a quick press to a hold benefits no one.

@matrix3509

2 жыл бұрын

@@MetalGearRAY675 That's why I said it was stupid. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if some UI designer was dumb enough to think it was actually genius. We've seen what passes for UI with most games, and yes its pure speculation, but its not outside the realm of possibility.

@mainedulla_oblongata

2 жыл бұрын

I think it’s a hold in case you’re not sure you wanna do that thing but it did get old 5 years ago

You really gotta respect (?) Phil Fish for just openly saying "fuck these Japanese games I am BETTER than them" instead of trying to hide behind game design talk and stuff. Just say it with your whole chest, people. We already know what you mean.

@bargaintuesday812

2 жыл бұрын

He didn't say he was better than them. He just said they sucked. And during that time period they did and it was right before Japanese games made a huge resurgence in quality. It was still rude as hell though.

@pyropoyo

2 жыл бұрын

@@bargaintuesday812 Okay yeah I remembered it as him decrying Japanese games against his own. Still a prick though.

@Zangelin

2 жыл бұрын

@@bargaintuesday812 And now its western games that are terrible.

@bargaintuesday812

2 жыл бұрын

@@Zangelin No? Western games are still the best and are as good as they've ever been.

@pyropoyo

2 жыл бұрын

@@bargaintuesday812 I think trying to call one or the other better is just feeding into the issue as a whole.

"There's a boss near the end of the game where you can glitch into his arena and his AI doesn't turn on" What's worse is that he's one of the coolest boss fights in the game!

@chucheeness7817

2 жыл бұрын

I did that glitch on one character just to try it out, only to create an entirely new character just to actually fight him coz I regret having to miss out on an awesome boss battle lol (not to mention I can't get the white mask invaders equipment anymore)

That giant face in Stormveil is even wilder cause there's a bloodstain there from a NPC that triggers the path to ANOTHER ENDING

@Kango234

2 жыл бұрын

I can't tell if your fucking with me or not.

Keep in mind the first Horizon game released not only during the Switch's launch week but also Breath of The Wild's launch so it's almost like Sony loves launching this series along with the heavy hitters of the year.

@VileVamp

2 жыл бұрын

Still better than what EA did to Titanfall, which I'm like 90% convinced was intentional sabotage.

@pachychon

2 жыл бұрын

Only 90%?

@sonicboomers122

2 жыл бұрын

It more likely they are hoping it would blow Zelda and later Elden ring away. If they won on that comparison it would look amazing and be embbeded in peoples mind instead the opposite happened.

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

@@sonicboomers122 22:36 you make a similar point to woolie here. The problem is they thought they could beat out a Hugely successful legacy franchise that has both a rabid fan base, plus the casual crowd drawn in by GRRM. I’m not a marketing genius but just seeing GRRM on the box should have made Horizons team go maybe we should put some distance between us and them.

@sonicboomers122

2 жыл бұрын

@@23kurtzy Hubris is God's mightiest sword.

Elden Ring so good it's causing people to revert back to 7th gen levels of barely holding back slurs when talking about Japanese games.

@GoodlyPenguin

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's barely holding back slurs in general

@soliduswasright678

2 жыл бұрын

I've seen a few where they so badly want to say Japan but drop the letters A and N.

@kneeofjustice9619

2 жыл бұрын

Nothing makes racism come out more than incompetence.

@admiralpepper6933

2 жыл бұрын

@@soliduswasright678 It's fuckin' great, makes my day even better

@cyberninjazero5659

2 жыл бұрын

@@soliduswasright678 JP?

Hot Take: When your UX design philosophy talking points mirror Phil Fish's take on Japanese game development, maybe you should reevaluate your position.

@JaneDoe-my8xq

2 жыл бұрын

What did he say? I never really paid attention to the whole “west vs jp” design/development philosophy

@DrFaustisDead

2 жыл бұрын

@@JaneDoe-my8xq kzread.info/dash/bejne/q3-Jqdmldq2neNo.html

@iller3

2 жыл бұрын

haha, that's a *Quality* pull!

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

@@JaneDoe-my8xq it was pretty racist.

@TurboNemesis

2 жыл бұрын

@@JaneDoe-my8xq He said Japanese games suck. like, just blanket all games from Japan are bad.

Playing Dying Light 2 and Elden Ring at the same time makes me realize how much I really dislike how overwhelming UI designs are in a lot of open world games. Granted most of them I can turn off but I absolutely dislike having a bunch of icons fill my screen.

@111cvb111

2 жыл бұрын

The maps literally fill me with OCD dread, I must clean them up, they're distracting. Its nice to not know where everything is at or even hidden from you, even if Elden Ring is down right absurd with hiding some of them.

@SIMIFU

2 жыл бұрын

BOTW's pro mode is *Chef's kiss*

@vaan_

2 жыл бұрын

Pretty much the reason why most japanese games are unbearable to me. Many keep trying to hide how uninspired and boring they are with exploding UI elements that take up half the screen. Then the rest of japanese games are masterful at it.

@XShrike0

2 жыл бұрын

A problem with turning them off is, "Was the game designed so you don't need it?" Did the quest giver give you enough information that you can piece stuff together? Does the game let you ask NPCs about the quest you are on to gather more clues? Some of these games seem to completely rely on the UI to get the player to where they need to be.

@infernaldisdain8051

2 жыл бұрын

@@vaan_ P5?

I don’t even think characters talking vs. not talking in gameplay is necessarily an eastern vs western thing. I remember Marty O’Donnell talking about how Master Chief in Halo 1-3 barely talked because they didn’t want him to think or say things that the player might not be thinking or saying. Then 343 became the new devs and Halo 4 came out and Chief never shuts up, and I remember hearing on a podcast where Marty himself said he thought it was incredibly jarring to play. Hell it’s part of why Rookie is just straight up silent in ODST.

@patrickmcpartland1398

Жыл бұрын

Go play a tales game and tell me japanese games don't have characters talking in combat

As a literal first time playing a FS game... like, ever. I'm having a blast, been an amazing experience do far!

@AnarchicArachnid

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome maker, enjoy your time

@animaker9

2 жыл бұрын

@@AnarchicArachnid For sure. Already like 50 hours in and still finding fun stuff to do

@supremacistdawn

2 жыл бұрын

you mean you missed out on the hidden gem The Adventures of Cookie & Cream??

@derpydoggo8880

2 жыл бұрын

@@supremacistdawn The world was not ready for The Adventure of Cookies and Cream. Perhaps Elden Ring will ready us for a truly challenging game such as that.

@solomon9655

2 жыл бұрын

@@supremacistdawn now that’s a pull

I wonder if the reason why western game devs are so prone to saying that something is "bad game design" is because they went to college for game design, where they were told "oh, [feature]? that's bad game design. No icons on the world map? that's bad game design. The game not telling where to go every single second of playing it? That's bad game design." If you're an indie dev who started out as just a software dev, you ain't gonna have any idea what "bad game design" even fucking means and you're instead going to go off of the games that you enjoy (aka, like, actual player-approved "good game design")

@hatsunemikufanboy

2 жыл бұрын

i went to uni for games tech and yeah you fuckin nailed it

@dracomundo1498

2 жыл бұрын

Because it makes you feel valid, because obviously all of your choices are the right one

@iller3

2 жыл бұрын

More like, it was their Marketing sales monetization departments who told them that... Guarantee there was some focus group attached to that which found it would increase the likelyhood of certain _kinds_ of "playtime Retention" which lead to Micro purchases or gamepass renewals

@Hegataro

2 жыл бұрын

@@hatsunemikufanboy I assumed as much, since the same thing happens in software dev, too "Well, back in university, they told us that XYZ is bad design" This sentiment commonly comes from people who are bad at the thing they have a degree in (they went into software dev but only got a degree through memorization and theory, not through actually knowing how to code), so they just parrot what their professors told them without a second thought

@joebin3106

2 жыл бұрын

Good point

Following up on Pat talking about movie discourse on social media - there are so many unironic/dead serious tweets about how the new Batman movie was "too serious" and "didn't have enough jokes" and its legitimately flabbergasting.

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

I just watched it and it felt like a Joel Schumacher movie with a little more subtlety. THAT was serious?

Damn, I really agree with Pat’s “two games” argument with Red Dead 2. Luckily I enjoy both of them, but I can see how that wouldn’t gel with some people.

@thelegalsystem

2 жыл бұрын

The Red Dead video from NakeyJakey he mentioned covers this in better detail, check it out if you have the time.

@MrDalisclock

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I loved RDR2 but the missions are super restrictive. The quality is high enough for me not to mind but I get why people hate it

@Lakross101

2 жыл бұрын

Second on watching Nakey Jakey. Pat forgot to mention the video is fucking hilarious.

Probably one of my favorite examples of non-linearity in a GTA game is during the torture mission of GTA 5, you can skip all but the first torture sections by shooting the guy with a big beard, big belly, and a redshirt. Michael and Dave Norton don't know they shot the right person but they assume they did. You skip the next three or four torture sections. GTA IV had a lot of these similar non-linear choices that I kinda wish were in RDR2 and even RDR1.

@renaigh

2 жыл бұрын

I did exactly that and still failed the mission.

@Broomer52

2 жыл бұрын

I saw a few non linear moments. You can shoot a man to skip a scene where you question where to find a man. You shoot his pal as soon as they notice you and it goes to a new scene where he freaks out that you killed his friend and surrenders the information without questioning

@DrRyan82994

2 жыл бұрын

@@Broomer52 there’s one where the agency wants Michael to snipe some guy, you can just shoot whoever you want and Michael is like, “eh close enough”

@chillhour6155

2 жыл бұрын

Trevor hard carried those forgettable story missions

@seanlafferty6683

2 жыл бұрын

But doesn't the mission require you to do all the torture options in order to get the perfect mission rating? Because I took the shot based on memory and remember getting a bronze. Not that is important but I do feel like the game still forces you to play it a certain way if you go for completion.

I shot a guy in RDR2 during a story mission and failed. Restarted and literally 2 minutes later I was forced to shoot and killed him

@XShrike0

2 жыл бұрын

That is one of the worst gaming experiences. It makes me question why am I even given control here?

@darkpuppetlordful

2 жыл бұрын

@@XShrike0 exactly. Like I'd say the gunslinger missions are another perfect example from RDR2. You cant shoot Belle and you can't not shoot the others. And the 1 you can shoot the gun from his hand, he pulls a pistol laughs at you and suicides. The rest don't register their gun as a unique target.

@willywitchdoctor

2 жыл бұрын

"run arthur we're ambushed this is unwinnable" and you're gunning down guys with the semi-auto shotgun, and then you get mission failed....it was just so annoying that you have literally zero control in missions

The more I see people talking about this kinda stuff, the more I realize that "good game design" is kind of subjective. Like, I knew a guy in college who was upset that Shadow of the Colossus just had you wandering through the map with no obstacles or enemies in between the colossi fights... and while yeah, that might be considered "bad" level design, but that is also the reason why people enjoyed that game in the first place! Some people enjoy the sense of exploration and finding shit out by themselves! I also totally understand why someone might be put off by Elden Ring's lack of UI, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I went into it with very little knowledge of Souls games, missed the combat tutorial, and still managed to enjoy the game because it's not actually that hard to figure it out on your own...

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

It really is. I tend to like weird esoteric shit. Like, not everybody can get into Space Station 13, ya know? I don't get why people need to stick their dicks into something others love and cry about changing it.

Woolie bringing up "the Grafted" spider things right after the point where his last Playthrough video left of is perfect timing. That was peak Miyazaki "raising the stakes" and summoning a SECOND monster closet out of nowhere

I think the interesting thing about the "2 games" conversation is that Elden Ring's 2 games don't really get in the way of one another. They aren't dissonant. You have options to tackle things I'm your own way just as you can out in the open world. NPC quests are just as non hand holding as they are in the open world. The design philosophy carries over beautifully. In a game RDR2 that isn't the case. You can go anywhere do whatever you want out in the open world. But the moment you begin a bespoke quest you are suddenly in rails. The design has this grating sense of dissonance.

...it'll keep happening when a Japanese dev does an open world game. It happened with BOTW Its happening with ER AND its going to happen with BOTW 2.

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

Sony's treatment of Japanese devs these last few years is appalling.

Elden Ring is making all of the Sandbox Generator companies shook it seems.

Trying to release an open world game at the start of 2022 is like the Dark Souls of game development

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

Elden Ring is the Dark Souls of Video Games

@theotherjared9824

2 жыл бұрын

Bottom text

Pat isn't lying about the whole 'boss fights are outdated' thing during the late 2000s. Mass Effect 3 is a classic example of how detrimental that maxim is, some execs thought that a boss fight with the Illusive Man would be lame so at the end of the game the conflict with him is resolved purely through a dialogue wheel despite the game explicitly laying groundwork for a fight. One of the many reasons why the ending is so universally hated is the rug pull where instead of fighting the Illusive Man in his iconic empty office, you get an unwanted rematch with his right hand man instead.

@HellfireComms

2 жыл бұрын

I remember that vibe during the time too

@lanius6259

2 жыл бұрын

i remember reading that rocksteady didn't want to put bossfights in arkham asylum wich is crazy considering the potencial bosses that batman has with ist villains, then arkham knight came out and i saw how right that article was about rocksteady philosphy

@Kango234

2 жыл бұрын

@@lanius6259 The Joker in Arkham Asylum is biggest reason that not every game needs boss fights. Honestly I think the takeaway from these discussions is that not every game needs to be the same and creators should just do what they want.

@lanius6259

2 жыл бұрын

@@Kango234 i absolutely agree nevertheless arkham city had some great boss fights and origins had them as that game saving grace, i think in the end each developer should be allowed to stick to their strenght

@MetalGearRAY675

2 жыл бұрын

@@lanius6259 not every game needs boss fight, but rocksteady's problem has always been that they are pretty terrible at designing boss fights, outside of that one Mr freeze encounter. I went back to origins on PC recently and my god, outside of some annoying design issues like how you unlock certain upgrades with challenges that game is incredible and it's bosses are better than I would have thought possible given Batman's control scheme. I wish the aspects of the design that WB Montréal excelled at were carried forward into Knight.

It really makes you think regarding the overall philosophies and culture guiding western game design. Too many devs have been acting like entitled pricks for a long time now, it's clearly not an isolated issue.

@Canadish

2 жыл бұрын

You can tell the lash out is fear driven. "What if I'm out of touch? No, it's the gamers and Japanese who are wrong". Western devs tend to be a certain kind of person, certainly the ones in AAA studios. The kind of person that thinks the world is out to get them and will always double down on their BS and just ban criticism rather than reflect on it.

@LokimenDOGMA

2 жыл бұрын

Western devs always did want to be Hollywood

@aceflibble

2 жыл бұрын

Lots of Japanese devs are pricks, too. They're just generally less public about it/they're not doing it in English so you don't notice it. Game development and publishing is toxic and egotistical the whole world over, and at all budget/studio sizes. America's got the loudest pricks, but there are entitled pricks all throughout Europe and Asia.

@renaigh

2 жыл бұрын

Devs are Entitled!? Get your head out of your ass, moron.

@ghirahimlefabuleux8984

2 жыл бұрын

@@renaigh Yes they clearly are. They can't accept that they make trash games, they *neeeed* to drag down good games to feel better about themselves.

One open world game that should have had a silent protagonist (or at least mostly silent) was Avalanche's Mad Max. He barely speaks in the films! Yet whenever you collect mementos of the old world, Max has to point out the obvious of every single trinket he finds. Yes, Max, the old world was different. The player doesn't need you to explain how to feel.

@MoostachedSaiyanPrince

2 жыл бұрын

I never played that game, but that's pretty stupid. I mean, we (the players) have the same perspective on the old world that Max does because we currently LIVE in the old world. If anything, I feel like him saying nothing would actually give him more character because while we are shocked to see how things in his time compare to how we live, his silence would be his acknowledgement of it as an unremarkable everyday part of his reality. Like, imagine if Kenshiro had to monologue about how "life used to be different" after he exploded a bunch of dudes instead of just moving on.

@gdhuertas07

2 жыл бұрын

@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince Exactly. I really enjoyed Mad Max otherwise, but stuff like that kept me from fully immersing myself.

@MoostachedSaiyanPrince

2 жыл бұрын

@@gdhuertas07 Yeah, speaking of which, how good is that game? It's on sale super-cheap on PSN right now and I'm not 100% sure on whether I should get it. It went kinda under my radar when it came out, and I don't remember how well received it was.

@gdhuertas07

2 жыл бұрын

@@MoostachedSaiyanPrince If it's cheap, I'd recommend it. The world itself is beautiful, and it nails the atmosphere of the Mad Max films brilliantly. I'd say it's flawed but fascinating.

It’s insane how horizon has been overshadowed twice by an arguably better game

@smiter57

Жыл бұрын

Arguably?

Really enjoyed HZD when I played it, being Ubi-free since ac3 probably helped a bit.

@Lakross101

2 жыл бұрын

You and I have been on the same train. I killed the dad in A3 and said fuck it, that amounted to nothing, I'm out.

@matrix3509

2 жыл бұрын

I played every AssCreed from 1 to Black Flag and I haven't touched one since. It really felt to me that Black Flag was the perfect feather in their cap as far as game design went, and as soon as I finished it I was like, "welp there is nowhere for them to go from here and I have no desire to ever play another one." Now I look at AssCreed like I look at Madden, or Call of Duty. "These games must be for SOMEONE, because they keep getting made, but they sure as shit aren't for me." What's insane to me is that they just took those amazing sailing mechanics and didn't give us some kind of age of sail sim. So much potential in those mechanics, just thrown into the trash.

A classic Pat, going to the other absolute extreme.

so good to hear the oys getting excited about souls at the end reminds me of the good old days

The best modern GTA levels are the assassination missions in 4 that give you free reign and access to the whole map to take down the target like going and finding a helicopter to land on his head is a valid strategy and it’s a breath of fresh air after the hyper scripted missions

Demon's Souls & Dark Souls 1 had bad UX with confusing list diving. Since they implemented grids in DS2 there really isn't any problem outside of figuring out what you recently got ... But now Elden Ring has 'sort by recently acquired' so that's now solved. Western UX philosophy is definitely to make everything a mobile game, showing as little information as possible due to 'Visual Noise'. So i assume the argument is that stats screens with a bunch of Scary numbers is 'objectively bad' to them.... But its an RPG bruh, hiding those numbers would actually make the game More confusing cus then you wouldn't be able to build your character... And Elden Ring has a less cluttered HUD than all western RPGs that fill it with quest markers (on minimap and ingame), quest objectives, quest notifications... So much for avoiding 'Visual Noise'.

@billyfig1

2 жыл бұрын

And there are even some cases where I think Elden Ring falls behind on revealing information. The big one is how physical defense values are broken up between Slash/Pierce/Strike, but offensive values aren't. At least, not in the main UI.

@vj7248

2 жыл бұрын

@@billyfig1 yeh that's been a series problem for sure. For the longest time i thought that meant if say, a weapon did standard/slash for example it did both... But datamining channels revealed that PER attack move you are doing that does that specific dmg type. Like maybe its all standard but your R2 is slash.... Def confusing. I'd honestly be down to collapse that general 'attack power' number to see each moves dmg, type, stamina use... Oh and I'll add too, Sekiro's posture system... That had a whole bar for it right? This game actually has that, its called Stance, and its completely invisible to the player... Less 'visual noise' but now ya gotta mentally keep track of that which is more confusing to me.

@DairunCates

2 жыл бұрын

To be 100% fair here. Yes. An RPG should absolutely have stat lists and the like, but having two stats called Robustness and Immunity that aren't explained at all really is kinda trashy. From has definitely improved, but there's still a lot of menu jank that people would not be forgiving so easily in a game by literally any other company. Like, why DOES the pouch have 2 extra slots you can't use without opening the menu, and yet it still removes those items from your regular item bar? Did we really need a fast selection method for the right side of the menu that's faster than menu searching but slower than cycling your regular item bar? And if I'm missing some method to use those items from the last two pouch slots... why isn't that explained anywhere?

@Ronin11111111

2 жыл бұрын

@@DairunCates Well I personally use those 2 extra pouch slots for items I use frequently BEFORE battle, so I don't have to dig for them, and I use the bottom bar for flasks and spirits only and the 4 directional slots of the pouch are for Torrent and throwables.

@vj7248

2 жыл бұрын

@@DairunCates Just to give a heads up to you or anyone else that doesnt know, all stats have a tool tip text attached to em. If you click select you can bring up the help menu and can scroll through what every stat does. But its def true they could explain the RPG stats even more. I think in general the RPG building is what is the most difficult about souls games. This goes beyond UX though, it's more of the concepts of the game itself. Oh the two pouches are a quick bar menu. Its actually a bit of a funny UX journey there. The Pouch comes from Bloodborne. It was a quick access menu so you could use items without menudiving and not filling up your 'use item' spot. This was also in Dark Souls 3. The pouch was in the center of the screen though. They updated this in multiple ways here. Now the pouch is accessed mostly by using Use button as a shift key for the dpad, which is actually amazing. The weird part is theres just 2 old-quick access slots ... Yeh i have no idea why its just two. Dpad has to be 4, but they coulda kept the 6 quick access like before. Also it was shifted to the right, placing it into a sidebar. This is so the menu doesnt obstruct where your going which is good but now the quick items arent apparent... And yeh only 2 slots makes it not as useful as it was. Which btw, yeh for multiplayer its much more useful. Resins or healing consumables the most likely candidates, but yeh now those can be on dpad shift.

Remember it's fine to like both games. A beef between two employees or corporations doesn't actually have anything to do with you.

@aceflibble

2 жыл бұрын

Yup. I'm playing and enjoying both Elden Ring and Horizon, alternating days with them. I'm having a great time. These petty clan wars don't help anything and don't make any games better, just like the console wars didn't help anything in the 90s. People have to learn getting in pissing matches over video games isn't a substitute for a personality. Play one, or both, or three or four games, or whatever. Just enjoy video games. It's what they're there for.

@joebin3106

2 жыл бұрын

You reap what you sow

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

It is, but remember it's also fine not to. It's totally okay to think horizon is trash, or elden ring is badly designed. Whatever. It's not a big deal.

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

I like western and Japanese games but I prefer Japanese games way more. Western devs are so far up their own asses these days it's ridiculous. And Sony treats Japanese devs like shit.

@zakugodofwar1005

2 жыл бұрын

It’s the arrogance that makes me dislike Horizon. And a dev ranting other games with different play styles is basically unprofessional. They are salty for the success of other devs.

Immortals Fenyx Rising was pretty inspired by breath of wild, I don’t think it left the impression Ubisoft had hoped because nobody seems to remember it lol.

@matrix3509

2 жыл бұрын

To be honest, this is the first time I'm hearing of it.

i’m one of those people who is playing elden ring as their first souls game and is loving every single second, and i also find it really interesting how upset some people are getting about the game’s open world/quest design. i can’t play most open world games (most western ones, that is) because of the map and the quest logs. the amount of information being shared quickly becomes overwhelming to my ADHD brain and i turn the game off. hell, i picked up the first HZD game on sale a couple years ago and haven’t finished it for this exact reason. so elden ring’s open world design is refreshing. i got one of those “go and find this thing” side quests pat talked about and the lack of specific directions actually felt amazing. instead of “here is the exact pathway to complete this quest and also we’re going to constantly remind you every 20 seconds what you have to do” it was “here’s a thing you can do if u wanna, just go play the game as you have been” and i LOVE that

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

Absolutely I feel this so hard

@ShadowGun625

2 жыл бұрын

You can at least give me a hint on were the npc is going so I can continue the quest line and not have to look at the entire map.

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

It's my first too but it's the first game i've played since Dragons Dogma that made me feel like I was on a real adventure.

I wish you kept the next ten seconds in where pat looks at chat and says everyone is saying "what?"

I literally just learned about the hanging pots RIGHT before they started talking about that zone in the elden ring tutorial

@XShrike0

2 жыл бұрын

It comes up again in like an ancient knight's tomb.

I missed the fact Pat mentioned Nakey Jakey when I listened to the podcast before this clip, cool that he mentioned it, that Red Dead video is great.

There is something incredibly sad in that developers like these, who are supposed to make games for us don't get why these basic things that existed for decades now are appealing. Makes me want to say "Go play some video games before making one, because you clearly don't have enough exp" to them.

@ThatWolfArrow

2 жыл бұрын

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these people haven't touched a controller at a casual level since the ps2 days or earlier

@iller3

2 жыл бұрын

@@OfficerHotpants ...and that [Richard]-measure is usually the metrics of Boards of Directors like the ones who all fell in behind people like Bobby Kotick and Strauss Zelnick

@Tamaki742

2 жыл бұрын

@@OfficerHotpants I mean, I wouldn't say nothing good could come out of that contest, but at the same time, I don't know if there was ever good things out of it.

I think the issue is people aren't used to a game that doesn't hold your hand. Some people when they first experience soulsborne titles they have a very positive reaction, it feels very freeing to just figure things out yourself. Thats what happened to me with demons souls, and I fell in love with that style when dark souls 1 came out. Other people have really adverse reactions to the lack of structure, and they hate it. They get frustrated and confused, not because they are stupid, but because they are so conditioned to a particular style, that anything else is irritating to them. My girlfriend is like this, she likes mario games and other Nintendo platformers, she tried elden ring and was immediately overwhelmed by the amount of stuff to remember. Its important to remember that other people have different preferences and that's fine. Its also important to remember, Elden ring fucking rules...

@brothertobias

2 жыл бұрын

For me, it was Gothic in 2001 and the first Monster Hunter game for the PSP.

@TotalXPvideos

2 жыл бұрын

My gf asked if she should buy it as well, since she saw I was very hyped for it, i was hesitant and told her "it's really good...but I don't think you'll play more than 20 minutes since it's really hard and thus not your cup of tea... Guess who's now in front of me out of spite.

The UI designer for BF2042 had the audacity to bitch about Elden Ring's UI. The guy has no legs to stand on when it took him 4 months to actually put in a scoreboard into the game.

Shame they didn't talk about the mask-off xenophobia I'm seeing from these people on Twitter. It's always been around and was very prevalent in the 7th gen but it seems ER getting this attention has opened some old wounds.

@Kango234

2 жыл бұрын

That's always been the most infuriating thing when people discuss game anything about Japanese media. I'm not saying they don't have issues that should be brought up, but people do it in such a childish and disrespectful way. It's insane how hypocritical they.

@Gaz_3

2 жыл бұрын

mask off xenophobia? what do you mean

@cmoon2718

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaz_3 Some devs are talking like having ui/ux problems is a japanese game problem and that the "Japanese style"of games like Elden Ring instantly throw them off.

@soliduswasright678

2 жыл бұрын

@@cmoon2718 theres more extreme examples like this UI is an example of Japanese brain utility or some shit. No clue what I was reading.

@Gaz_3

2 жыл бұрын

@@cmoon2718 That's pretty close minded of them

Idk man MGSV suffered greatly from damn near no dialogue from Snake

@cybernurgle6413

2 жыл бұрын

That's the other extreme

@mortified0

2 жыл бұрын

People blow the amount of dialogue Snake had out of proportion. He talks a lot in the audio tapes and several missions. He's downright chatty in Ground Zeroes and Code Talker.

@jakubinet

2 жыл бұрын

Spoilers... I think that one is for a different discussion since that is intended because YOU are Snake, not because of gameplay reasons. I get that people don't like Kojima's meta shit but that is why there is no inner monologue and very little dialogue.

@Kango234

2 жыл бұрын

Snake not talking was the least of that games issues.

@bicksbernd1640

2 жыл бұрын

Snake talks, just not in cutscenes and those are the least of the problems with V.

There was no need for the Horizon devs to throw shade when there game is gonna do great regardless. Been enjoying my time with it.

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

Horizon has a neat world and some cool scifi concepts but I hate the characters, story and some of the gameplay. It reminds me of the time I downloaded Life is Strange. It seemed right up my alley. But almost as soon as I got into it in the school I could not enjoy anything because the characters were so horrifical obnoxious it ruined the whole thing for me. I still can't get over the whole "selfie artist" fucking shit. Made me want to puke.

@DavimonVtube

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaia_Gaistar I like the characters story and gameplay. Don't like Life is Strange though so don't really have an opinion on that

@Tamaki742

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaia_Gaistar "HELLA."

i like open world dialogue when it reveals more about our character, how they feel about their environment, things that remind them of little past events we may not have been privy to, etc. it connects the character to the world. But when the character is essentially dropping the same tutorial tips every time they pass a certain marker, or not trusting the player to do simple puzzle objectives without blurting out the answer 5 minutes in, it just feels like the game is backseating me with my own character and nagging me to play their way. Let me struggle! let me earn my experiences with the game!

Linear quests can be great. Like I love plenty of questlines in New Vegas or Witcher games, probably cus those try to have branching paths and different outcomes. But it can make NPCs and yourself feel like actors, and especially that NPCs are just machines meant to give you quests to add to your todo list. But the way FromSoftware does these abstract, obstructing info, NPC questlines make a lot more sense for an open world. It makes characters feel like they are on a journey too, adventuring along and you meet together by happenstance. Adds alot to making the world feel 'living'.

@RahkshiMaster

2 жыл бұрын

Witcher 3's quests are very linear and scripted, but they make up for them by being incredibly well written.

@vj7248

2 жыл бұрын

@@RahkshiMaster Witcher 3 is definitely the best way of doing heavily scripted questlines. I remember an interview describing their process was designing the quests to be 20-30 minute tv episodes. So the pacing is great, you get to see the start and end of a story, but like a tv show characters can become reoccuring and you get to see longer story arcs. Honestly alot of the side quests were better than the main quest. Plus, Witcher does the trick of not telling you what choices matter until 20 hours later. Hiding that info, to surprise you of the consequences.. it gives a lil taste of what fromsoft bases their entire questlines on.

@Valanway

2 жыл бұрын

Though at the same time they also make it feel like you're the only one doing anything in the world or mattering despite many of the games telling the contrary and that our character is just more tenacious and brave than most, but not important (even the chosen undead was an intentional misnomer), since you're the only one who moves their quests, and by extension, their lives, along. All of which are usually very easy to miss entirely, mess up, or lose out entirely just by playing the game in a way they don't want for the quests or going out of a set order. Though that's not exclusive to ER, but all of From's souls games. It's more the style and tradition of how the game operates than anything, so at least it's an expected way to do quests and can be worked with easily

@vj7248

2 жыл бұрын

@@Valanway Well few NPCs are going that 'main' path your taking. Solaire is trying to become the sun, Seigmeyer is trying to find his daughter, etc. They all have their own goals, which is what dictates the logic of their quest. Something you may not be told immediately since your just two strangers meeting each other. So while yeh, we are Protagonist causing event triggers to further quests behind the scenes (usually its just defeating a boss or entering an area) you still gotta go lookin' for that character. They could end up where ever they want, which is enough autonomy to not just be ducks waddling behind Da Main Guy. Like say, Pathologic takes this hidden info obtuse questing and cranks it to 11. Not only does player action move npc quests, but also the passage of time itself.... I would say, this works in Pathologics case for its theme, but the amount of moving pieces is a bit intense. People already claim souls quests are bullshit because 'me main character, why npc mad i killed their brother? doesnt make sense bro' if NPCs actually progressed via time intervals and beat the game before you (no joke, this type of concept was in the works for Oscar before they scrapped it) itd be too much to handle honestly.

@SaberRexZealot

2 жыл бұрын

@@RahkshiMaster I think Witcher 3 at least had better player autonomy than RDR2 when it comes to missions. If you’re doing a quest with Yennefer, at any point you can just leave her there and go play some Gwent on the other end of the map, and then come back days later - there moght even be some dialogue about abandoning her. It’s unrealistic but it respects the player’s choices better.

I remember you guys had the exact same conversation about eastern vs western developers on the old channel while you were playing Sam's dlc in Revengance. You guys should take a look at Sol Cresta since it's solely published and developed by Platinum, it might be a palette cleanser for Babylon's Fall. I plan on getting the Limited Run Version of it.

Say “Thank you Elden Ring” for pushing Horizon out of the narrative in less than a week of its release.

@Maxim0M1

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Elden Ring!

@Adjudicus

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Elden Ring

@pike1294

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Elden Ring

@GoodlyPenguin

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you..Elden Souls

@prier

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Elden Ring! , but, Hole. *Ring Gesture*

As I get older I prefer more linear games. Just dont have the time anymore. However, very rarely, if the open world is engaging and fun to explore, like spiderman, then I'm down for it.

@FlameHidden

2 жыл бұрын

Western open world design is super linear though. It doesnt feel like that because the map is big, but its still a do one-then two-then three to poggress sort of thing. You can do sidequests... but it so rarely doesnt drag by the eigth time you have fought that same mini boss

@xsoultillerx

2 жыл бұрын

@@FlameHidden eh i'd argue that i had more fun playing something like fallout 4 than i did with a japanese open world game. i can't comment on something like elden ring, breath of the wild or arceus as i haven't played them yet but the ones that i did play seem to have a bad habit of being rather empty and having really nothing to do in the overworld or structured like an MMO. i feel like the dead rising or shenmue, yakuza & MGS5 were the only ones i played not like that.

@MortalWombatI

2 жыл бұрын

@@xsoultillerx This is the part of the reason I don’t play many open world games. I don’t like feeling like I have to wander aimlessly for an hour to find a single unique encounter or decent reward. Luckily, Elden Ring is essentially a massive open area FILLED with nearly nothing but unique encounters with the rewards often being a handful of consumables to help you upgrade your weapons or craft more items to help you fight, but also decidedly brand new items that can help you change your arsenal/playstyle wildly if you wanted to. Players can find a surprisingly good early game weapon simply by exploring some ruins right nearby the starting area, and that sort of design incentivizes exploring everywhere throughout the entire game, because you actually get excited about the encounters AND the rewards. No obnoxious UI needed. “I SHOULD INVESTIGATE THAT CAVE OVER THERE…”

Oh god Monster Hunter quest descriptions, maybe my favorite one is a Rajang quest where the description is that a shitty princess wants a Rajang rug and that opens a quest for Kirin where she got bored of the Rajang so now go get a Kirin one.

Days Gone is really a godsend to this concept, it’s almost a parody of this where deacon is explicitly crazy for talking to himself all the time

Elden Ring feels like a game that doesn't want to be 100%'d. If you miss something oh well, that's fine, you probably didn't need it.

Say what you will about Last of Us Part 2 but the open world section near the start of that game is the first time i've seen a western developer design exploration in a way that allows you to stumble upon discovery. Letting players just run around and find shit as opposed to holding their hand is a net good

My first Jrpg was Yakuza like a dragon. Now I'm not saying fallout, my personal favorite series all time, isnt good. Yakuza was next level story telling, I felt for the characters every moment and loved the cliches. Definitely stands on its own level in terms of design to me, kinda like MH.

@Kango234

2 жыл бұрын

I haven't played Like a Dragon yet, but it makes me so happy to hear a western RPG fan played and enjoyed it. It's so funny since most people who avoid Japanese games cite an anime art style or that you're playing as a bunch of teenagers. So you would think that a game where you play as a bunch of realistic, middle aged men would blow up. But nope, actually playing the game is not as fun as complaining on the internet it seems.

The only thing I dislike about Elder ring is finding cool bait enemies, they are tough normal enemies in a remote special looking area, but there is nothing special about them. Not even the satisfaction is enough reward for the pain they induce.

@23kurtzy

2 жыл бұрын

My only problem is I can’t scrape the walls. I keep finding new areas, help I found a flaming church I haven’t even found the first boss.

@ViperJoe

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, the fact that many of them respawn and only yield a pitiful amount of runes makes fighting them more trouble than its worth. I wish they took more cues from Sekiro in this area because the minibosses were actually a blast to go out of your way and fight in that one.

@nackskott12

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah, leveling in the early game was painful for me personally because you just need to bash your head against dungeons and bosses or else you won't be leveling up. I'd also extend that criticism to the lack of upgrade materials outside of mine areas. Killing normal enemies in the overworld, minibosses or evergoal fights gives an absolute pittance of runes and almost never drop smithing stones because they usually give you other things like weapons or spells instead. The problem is that early game, leveling up and upgrading your weapon are the most important part of progression because you probably don't have the stats yet to use the things minibosses and evergoal fights give you. It's probably the weakest part of the game in my perspective other than how often you can be stunned and killed before you can roll or react.

@DrRyan82994

2 жыл бұрын

there are a a lot of enemies in this game that are playing a different game, like their just so fast and have so much health, and yeah, 400 souls for the knights in stormveil? the little vulgar militia guys outside the beast sanctum are like 1000 and i can kill them with a backstab and a couple slashes, they’re attacks are slow too, plus you don’t lose a third of your souls when you die in the overworld. oh and i never found a good source for smithing stone 1, i had to get the item to unlock it in the twin husks shop

@isaacbruner65

2 жыл бұрын

@@ViperJoe shoutout to the like 4 or 5 respawning Erdtree burial watchdogs in that catacomb in the mountains because it totally makes sense to make a scaled-down version of a boss a respawning enemy. I eventually ran past them.

I think it gets overlooked alot but I really loved Arkham Knight's mechanic of 'following the bat symbol to you waypoint.' A very Batman way around maps

I found a NPC in Elden Ring that spoke to me and asked me to take a castle south of a point I hadn’t found yet. 1 I like that I didn’t get a pop up with an exact distance count to that point

a big factor of what i enjoy from an open world is whether or not there's stuff to do after i finish the game like side quest, events & random encounters. like pat brought up AC: brotherhood as a "gold standard" but i felt like there's almost nothing to do in that game's overworld once you finish the main game & DLCs.

Elden Ring is so good it's managed to make talking about it on the internet with people actually feel like being back in grade school and talking with the other kids in your class.

Kinda love how Red Dead Revolver just doesn't exist in Pat's brain as a part of that franchise

@joebin3106

2 жыл бұрын

The fuck is Revolver

@Valanway

2 жыл бұрын

@@joebin3106 the first game. Red Dead Redemption is an almost spiritual sequel, not the first game in the series.

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

They're basically different games entirely in different genres. Revolver is the Max Payne to redemptions gta

I feel like this Eastern vs Western is only going to get worst going foward now since China and Korea are now known parts of the game industry like Chinese games are often mobile so theyve been invisible until Genshin blew up (granted they're seen as the best mobile games) but its there

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

Like comics and manga, the west cannot keep up. They won't learn.

@Dante45p

2 жыл бұрын

@@Gaia_Gaistar they could but they're too racist to bother

Now I might get lambasted for saying this, but as much as I love elden rings open ended, figure it out yourself nature, I do ever so slightly wish we got just a little bit more when it comes to where we should go with quests. I’m not saying it should be marked on the map for every single one, but there are so many npc’s that just give you nothing in terms of where to go or what to do to trigger the next part. Some are great, I met a guy once that said, “hey there’s a castle to the south can you go kill the big guy there” but then there’s the big wolf man with the badass sword who says, “I hate this guy, you should kill him.” And I have no idea where to even start looking for that person, even though I REALLY want to continue his quest and I don’t want to resort to looking stuff up online. Like, I’m not asking for a marker on a map or for the game to just railroad me towards the exact location, but just gimme a starting point.

@Terithian

2 жыл бұрын

Definitely agree on that. I did a quest today where the only direction I was given was to go "up the way" while in the middle of a foggy swamp with no roads around. I appreciate having to figure it out for myself, but I wish I could have at least gotten a cardinal direction to go off of instead of wandering around in the swamp in all directions for half an hour before I found what I was looking for. Fromsoft's vague quest design worked well in their other games since their worlds were far more constrained, but it doesn't work quite so well in a massive open world.

@derpydoggo8880

2 жыл бұрын

I also agree. Another thing i don't like is that if you forgot what they said, or didn't understand them first time, sometimes you can't talk to them again.

@BaconheartStuff

2 жыл бұрын

The most absurd one I've encountered so far is a quest guy said "Hey meet me in [This Zone]" and I went there and they were nowhere to be seen. Turns out they were just in a completely different area and I was supposed to talk to another NPC entirely to learn that.

@TrixTrix228

2 жыл бұрын

The anxiety factor is up cause they added in Illusory Floors

Two of the most popular and renowned AAA games of all time are GTA V and Skyrim which both have really minimalistic HUDs in game. You get a radar, the health bars, the objective flashes a couple times, and the other elements pop out as needed. They don't crowd the fucking screen with bullshit.

Man, I've tried playing genshin, and exploration in that game is actually pretty fun sometimes. There's some really cool locations you can find and dungeons to explore, however I absolutely hate the amount of unskippable dialogue that you have to go through to do ANY sort of quest in that game. It's not even interesting dialogue, it's just overly detailed explanations about what you have to do to finish whatever quest. Reminds me of the ssethtzeentach quote; "it was at that point I realized the saddest job you can have is not being a games journalist, it's being an RPG dialogue writer."

character talks in a video game 'REEE STOP I DONT CARE!' Then why are you even playing it

good to see Pat acknowledging the NakeyJakey

"Why are you gonna go in that swamp shithole?" "I dunno, maybe there's something cool in it." Patches: "Hey! Lookit that down there! I think I see something shiny!... how about you go check it out?"

Seems like Woolie will eventually have to play a modern Rockstar game to at least get a better understanding of these grievances. Pat isn't the best person when it comes to explaining these grievances clearly, which I'm elated to hear him recommend NakeyJake's video on RDR2. That video beautifully sums up the major flaws that game unfortunately suffers from.

@LessDevoid

Жыл бұрын

The way Pat explained it, and the way Woolie seemed to interpret it, makes RDR2 sound like literally everything was gated off/restricted unless you did it one way. In reality it was just Pat being salty that he can't sequence break main story missions.

I like how the segment about other games just comes back to Elden Ring

That lunchroom dev got Arcana Heart'd

@ISayEssays

2 жыл бұрын

I love that I understood the reference.

having smashed my head against Mohg for as long as I did I can say that the arena fog gate work around needs to stay. and I beat Milania without coop or npc ashes so it's not even about the boss hitting hard, he just never stops attacking.

@isaacbruner65

2 жыл бұрын

You can find an item called Mohg's shackle in Leyndell sewers that trivializes his first phase.

Im going through my first plythrough of a souls game and its dark souls prepare to die edition. And I adore the game. That being said it reminds me of a more elaborate Maximo ps2 which gave me almost the same sense of adventuring and figure things out on your own and be careful with every step you take kind of wonder.

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

Maximo was amazing, but a very divisive game at the time. Journalists HATED it except for a handful of people who "got it"

Me, personally. I feel that Alloy does the "Open world protagonist" dialogue the best (of games I've played anyway). Its better than constant text popups reminding you to do shit over and over again. Like every game ever will constantly pop up with shit like "Hey you still have skill points to spend" and I keep screaming "I KNOW! IM SAVING UP FOR A SKILL!" Also, in Horizon Zero Dawn in particular (haven't played Forbidden West yet) subqests are done particularly well in that like, 80% of the time after you go do what the quest giver told you to do, you can just move on to the next thing without having to break up the gameplay by returning to town. You get your quest reward and XP without having to go back and talk to anyone. Alloy is just like "Whelp, that's done. Moving on." I can't tell you how much better the game is for not having to go back to the quest giver for every gat dang quest you finish.

@Madman6884

2 жыл бұрын

I don't even know what that guy was talking about when he said she chimes in about quests a lot that Pat somehow turned into a negative after praising it last week. I think early on there was some of that but I've gotten way further into the game and barely hear any of the commentary like that anymore. Heck they even patched it to lower the amount of ambient dialogue she has about items you gather getting put into storage (it was annoying, and is way better now).

@OtioseFanatic

2 жыл бұрын

@@Madman6884 haven’t played the new one yet so I wouldn’t know but I didn’t mind her being a bit chatty in the first one. Not just because it makes sense seeing as how she’s literally a nutter mountain woman with zero social skills who makes sense to talk to themselves, but because I like having the feedback.

I didn't think that watching this particular thing would tip me off to two areas i was still thinking about in Elden Ring and the fact there is more there. for the brigde I beat the bois and didn't htink to roll off the bridge it's brutal lol... now i need to go back x.x for the record barricade shield and guard counters work very well 1v1 for them imo.

So hearing Pat talk about the scions is similar to how I got fed up with all those dragons on that one part of the map, so I said fuck it and systematically exterminated them, only for them to give like 1000 runes each, even though the big sleepy one in the same area that everybody cheeses using bleed will drop at least 70000. That shit boils my blood into sludge.

To be fair, Both Sony and FromSoft fucked Guerilla. If Elden wasn't getting pushed Guerilla should've backed out and forced a delay no matter what Sony says. You're losing more money having your sales taken by Elden than not selling at all.

The funniest part is that they are shitting on designs that western games have done in the past and was praised. But for some reason they just dont want to do it

@jeangreffsbp

2 жыл бұрын

Its easy to copy the ubisoft UI and call it a day

@joebin3106

2 жыл бұрын

DOOM is way too hard, just copy&paste COD lmao

@mattb6616

2 жыл бұрын

@@joebin3106 CoD is too hard, let's make Literally Every Enemy a QTE

5:06 I remember when I was on Twitter and I came across a guy who was getting dunked on because, basically, "tactical turned based games are a lost cause and irrelevant", ie. Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, XCOM. The guy had also put out a pissed off tweet saying "I won't respond to anyone who isn't asking a genuine question". And I remember thinking (naively) to myself, "Gee, Twitter only has so many characters. Maybe there's some important context missing here? Perhaps I WILL ask this guy genuinely to explain himself." So I tweeted back at the guy and asked "What's the context behind this? I enjoy this genre, but I want to understand. What flaws do you see and why do you not think it can't ever be improved upon, ever, unlike literally every other genre?" and he was just like "Read my article" with a link. And I paused. And I thought to myself "This guy is advertising at me instead of explaining himself genuinely like he promised. His opinion that an entire genre can't evolve and should be scrapped because of that literally makes no sense-- Wait a minute, an opinion!? That doesn't matter to me or how I enjoy things!" And then I simply LEFT.

regarding the spiel at the start - golly, it's almost like the games are aimed at two separate and distinct audiences or something! what a concept!

Wools .. i’m 34 And you and Pat are my favorite people to listen to talk I can listen to you guys for days talk about our culture

Looking back on it, I've found myself kind of soured to the little side stories that a lot of games, open world ones especially, give their side quests. I like Pat's example of how monster hunter gives you a text crawl of stuff to justify it, some of which are actually pretty entertaining, but most people don't pay attention to because they only care about what monster(s) are on it. I appreciate a game having stories to tell, i appreciate games wanting a more natural means of pushing players into cool side areas, but I rarely care about the games' "why?" Edit because i just thought of an addendum: Games that are better at encouraging exploration via gameplay actually get hit by this worse. If the story is taking time away from me doing the fun part then the less it's presence matters, regardless of the actual quality.

Pat should play Book of Travels. It's a tiny MORPG that consists entirely of wandering around and finding things

If Pat would explain his opinions on things as well and from both sides as he did with RDR2, he would have a lot less crazy people write him on twitter, but it also wouldn´t be as much fun.

Hello Woolie and Pat! 👋

An important thing to note is the actual completion rate, sure being told what to do each second sucks but people are very very very very dumb and will forget what they’re doing or what to even do. So moving to make things more relaxed only decreases completion rate

@FrozenOver0

2 жыл бұрын

It doesn't even have to be people being dumb. If you only have a handful of hours to sit down and play on weekends, with five day periods between each session it can be easy to forget what you were doing the last time.

@patrickmcpartland1398

Жыл бұрын

​@FrozenOver0 so write a note? You literally have a phone, if you have the memory of a gold fish that's a you problem and sounds kinda like you're dumb

I don't think pat is in the wrong for not liking and dropping rdr2, but it is a massive game and if you make it as far into it as he did in his streams without figuring out that when you're in a mission you need to be completely focused on the mission, then some of you running into a wall with the game is on you too, not just the restrictive design.

You work in a western game studio and perfect your craft in order to achieve the perfect answer to every issue, and you win awards for it from mainstream outlets. Then some random Japanese game gets critical success for doing the complete opposite and you have to fight with yourself that there's now two answers to your perfect game design world. It's childish.

To be fair on horizon I've seen to a lot people take this UX discourse discussion and just turn it into a Horizon VS Elden Ring thing or like it was all Horizon devs being salty in that tweet which is wrong.

The last time I had this much fun exploring was Morrowind. I haven't played BotW, I don't even own a Switch.

@Gaia_Gaistar

2 жыл бұрын

I like BotW okay, i'm not a super Nintendo fan but i've played almost every main console Zelda. But I dunno, never finished it. Elden Ring is giving me high fantasy mysterious adventure vibes I haven't had since Dragons Dogma.

@blackvial

2 жыл бұрын

At least Morrowind npcs gave decent directions to where to go on a quest they give you without having to mark it on your map

I tried the DS1 games a couple times and it didn't clique for me but Elden ring was just perfectly designed for me personally and contextualized everything plus getting into that side of Woolie's content and after putting 180 hours into my first playthrough I went back and have now beaten bloodborne and gotten to sen's castle in ds1. Once you find the rythem the game wants you to play its very similar to playing music

Pats take on Red Dead is so interesting for me because I have experiences the opposite of everything he’s describing about the game.

Rdr2s missions are linear. The open world is what woolie is hearing about and it is very free. Once u choose to start a mission it becomes linear. Pat explained this poorly.

@VileVamp

2 жыл бұрын

It's kind of annoying tbh. I miss being able to pursue creative ways to end a mission in rockstar games. Hell, in the game's bloody last act you can still run into hand holding tutorials.

@kricku

2 жыл бұрын

That's exactly what Pat said, though

@Zeronigel332

2 жыл бұрын

I heard that it isn’t an it punishes you forces you to do the same thing over and over again for little money

@VileVamp

2 жыл бұрын

@@Zeronigel332 You're thinking of gta online and RDO, two entirely different cans of worms there.

@Zeronigel332

2 жыл бұрын

@@VileVamp isn’t that suppose to be the most open world part of the game though

Man... these kinds of conversations make me want to bring up games like MegaMan 2, 3 and X and one of EgoRaptor's first big videos "Sequilitis: MegaMan X". Those games are all mechanics and design and shit loads of fun. The story is there, it's not particularly deep, most of the exposition is in the manual, but if you search for it in-game, it's there. Fucking flawless games, in terms of design, that people continue playing to this day. Then you look at what it's become, where the level designs are no where near as tight, and they stop gameplay every minute to flood you with more exposition than you need or could ever want, when you just want to run and shoot and jump and use cool abilities. But the sales of those newer games are up and seem more successful, because the market has grown so much, and all the good-will garnered from the first 10-ish years of MegaMan making the franchise a mainstream title, everyone is hoping the next one is as good as the early ones.

@Samael1113

2 жыл бұрын

@@OfficerHotpants Further than me.. kind of. I fell off around X3, though I did try out Battle Network 1, 2 and 3, and they are pretty solid games (but not traditional). Decided to get back in with Command Mission, which was alright but a little disappointing, X7 which was enough to drive me away from the mainline MM and X series forever, and Megaman Zero which was amazing and had me picking up the next 5 games in that series. Megaman Zero is like a Megaman game for old fans who love a challenge like the Quick Man stage from MM2 (without using the flash stopper) and a little bit of mostly optional story.

@DairunCates

2 жыл бұрын

To be honest, I hate that video. He's not wrong in conveyence being the ideal, but his LP entire career is proof of exactly why game devs NEED to spell things out sometimes. The number of times he has gotten stuck on something for AN HOUR because he refused to read the tutorial bubble next to the door and kept trying the same obtuse solution over and over is infuriating. The problem with using Megaman X as an example is because the vast majority of people that played X at the time weren't going into it blind. They had the context of other games like it to inform them on how to play. You actually never know when someone nowadays is gonna try a genre for the first time and how they will react to it. This is why every single new Fromsoft game will still have written tutorials. Because their engine is so alien to anything else.

@Samael1113

2 жыл бұрын

@@DairunCates He does most of that on purpose, and because he's lazy. Like, Sonic Adventure, he was purposefully breaking the game on the auto scenes/tracks and jumping off them, but playing it up like the game was broken and worse designed than it was, and like he didn't know what he was doing (which was not the case). People tend to be smart enough to figure basic mechanics out eventually. Few people are that cuphead guy who couldn't figure out how to jump. More complex mechanics deserve tutorial pop-ups, sure. But bad design in that video goes beyond the mechanics. It's also the expository dumps, where you have to spend time mashing through prompts to get back to the actual gameply you were in the middle of, and the constant interruption of game flow for those expository dumps. A 2 second pop-up or optional info bubble before the gameplay really starts is one thing, but when you are mid platforming, or boss fight or whatever and you are getting interrupted, that is terrible design. Especially when it is chained where you get the prompt, get through it, get control of your character for 5seconds then get another dump (and you're not in the tutorial anymore), get through it, get control back for another 5 seconds then get another prompt etc.

@DairunCates

2 жыл бұрын

@@Samael1113 Have you actually run playtests of a game before? Because as someone that has, Egoraptor frequently doesn't look like he's faking. He acts EXACTLY like a clueless person beta-testing a level and getting stuck. He might be doing some of it for entertainment, but he clearly has some actual issues with understanding mechanics, especially as games get more modern than his specific era of expertise. Also, if you haven't seen a person with no game experience try to play a modern game without tutorials before, you should. It is amazing what kind of skillsets people with even minimal gaming experience take for granite. I've seen an adult woman that took an hour to leave the first room in Ocarina of Time, because she couldn't even figure out immediately how a 2-D control stick translates to a 3-D motion. People that have even beaten a single game take for granted how much games actually teach in terms of how to play them. You need to see someone actually try a game for the first time to realize what you looked like as a 5 year-old picking up a control stick for the first time. It's not pretty.

I fucking remember watching a 2012 Rooster Teeth video on dark souls where they wouldnt shut the fuck up about how bad and drab and grey, brown and boring the game looked and how stupid it felt to play. Some of those people I see livestreaming Elden Ring today

@IndoorSitup

2 жыл бұрын

i would like to see that, if you happen to have a link

@FlameHidden

2 жыл бұрын

@@IndoorSitup I could not, for the life of me, find it, but I remember it was way back, when I got the game myself after pewdiepie played it in 2013. All the main boys were there and happily shitting on its graphics, UI, art direction and gameplay

@DrRyan82994

2 жыл бұрын

complaining about brown and gray was huge around then. but we’re not playing sunset overdrive 5 today

I find it funny that the most consistent complaints for protagonists that I have seen come up is "This character is too silent and boring" and "This character will not fucking shut up I hate them"

@ISayEssays

2 жыл бұрын

It's a hard balance to strike and it has peaks and valleys the more fantastical/unrelatable the prognostic gets. Joel from the Last of Us was a normal dude who quipped a lot and had Ellie as a good soundboard. Aloy from Horizon is some wierd clone with advanced tech who talks a lot and explains almost nothing to the other characters because she's the chosen one. In Final Fantasy 14 the chosen one (Warrior of Light / WoL) doesn't talk untill the expansions and for the most part is treated as the muscle. The WoL ends wars, kills gods, time travels, and visits other dimensions while giving a curt nod and fist bump to anyone in trouble. By the time you get to put words in the WoL's mouth despite how extreme and alien they are as a character you know the character so well you don't feel any dissonance between dialogue and action. In this respect FF14 achieved the best of both worlds by simultaneously having a silent protag you can ascribe your own thoughts and motivations to while also dishing out solid one liners as the situation warranted.