Personally I think we need a "hidden" condition separate from "invisible". Hiding is more than just not being seen, it is about others not knowing where one is.

@fortunatus1

10 ай бұрын

It is also not being heard. In the current rules, a Rogue is not in stealth if they are behind total cover nor are they hidden if invisible. You still need to make a Hide check because people can hear you.

@RJWhitmore

10 ай бұрын

@@fortunatus1 Yep, except when they can't! Magical silence area, deafness, rushing river/waterfall, loud combat, music being played, and so on. There is rules elsewhere that state that if you are unseen and unheard then you are hidden (makes sense). So, the Hide action isn't necessary in this situation (makes sense). In fact, seeing or hearing someone is not automatic unless the situation is easy enough to not warrant a DC (bright sunshine, person on an empty road ahead of you 50ft away dancing? Yeah, you see em). So, presumably your DM is constantly monitoring the potential DC and the passive perception checks like its a video game - except there is so little advice on this and frankly thats kind of exhausting.

@MajorCinnamonBuns

10 ай бұрын

Honestly this is my biggest problem with 5E. I tried playing a gloomstalker and arguing about the invisible condition + hiding and how it all works was such a pain in the ass. I was happy when my character died.

@anomaloushumanoid

10 ай бұрын

Invisibility and hidden should have always been seperate and trying to conflate them is just making things extra complicated.

@chadcurtis7967

10 ай бұрын

I think you flip the condition, it’s not Invisible on me, it’s Unseen condition on you. Like how frightened works, I do stuff to be “Unseen”, you(s) make saves, some will succeed and some fail, those that fail, I’m unseen. Next the break condition, if I move into your field of vision and am not invisible or otherwise have some obscurement I break the unseen condition on you.

How I see hiding in 3/4 cover: your 5 ft square has 3/4 cover because of a low wall or corner, but you do not take up that entire square. By taking the hide action, you are hiding in the part of that square that is fully covered. For example, crouching behind the low wall or flattening yourself against the corner so they cannot see you. I'd even suggest a small-sized creature could perform this action in half cover. Hiding is definitely a mechanic that should rely on DM discretion as much as possible as the condition relies on a lot of context a rulebook simply can't take into account, while providing a few helpful examples. A DM can decide how much realism they really want. Most stealth missions in movies and video games are utter nonsense under even modest scrutiny anyways, so if they choose to be more permissive, they'd be keeping with a strong fictional tradition.

Adding something along the lines of "while hidden you can move through areas of heavy or light obscurity and remain unseen..." might help a ton without a total rework.

So many players treat hiding like crouching in Skyrim. Invisibility by another name.

@AtelierGod

10 ай бұрын

In OneD&D that’s exactly what it is

@xiongray

10 ай бұрын

I had this happen a 3 sessions ago. Ranger was like, "I'm going to steal that. Crouches." I was like, "Let's go! But this ain't Skyrim! He's in broad daylight and so are the targets, in the open, how are you going to go for it?" Party cooks up a plan for a distraction. Ranger succeeds both Stealth & Sleight of Hand.

@jamesm2577

10 ай бұрын

They are desperately trying to keep from having hide skill and move silent skill and running into trouble trying to force GM's into accepting Skyrim crouch

@AtelierGod

10 ай бұрын

@@jamesm2577 simplifications in order to keep bookkeeping down is causing functions to not work properly.

@nswmeeuwes89

10 ай бұрын

It's a pet peeve of mine when I hear a player say: "I stealth over there" Bruh, tell me in what way you're being stealthy?!

Chris, I think I have an interpretation for hiding that kind of makes sense of some of the inconsistencies of hiding and popping out and shooting. Hiding isn't so much that the enemy doesn't know where you are. They still do, they just have momentarily lost track of you. And, when you pop out, they're not sure when/where exactly you'll pop out of. So, even if they're staring exactly at where you are, they are gonna be "reacting" slower to your attack because they can't directly see it.

@ParaisoFlower

10 ай бұрын

This has always been my interpretation. Of course bob-goblin knows your behind the bush, but will you pop from the left or the right or above? Will you do it the moment bob-goblin glances at the bardbarian? Will you scurry in an shiv him as he reacts to a clang in the opposite direction? Of course, this helps me adjudicate stealth as i imagine it as opposed to following the RAW. Obviously, rewrites required.

@AtelierGod

10 ай бұрын

@@ParaisoFlowerfires the arrow through the bush.

@grantstratton2239

10 ай бұрын

@@ParaisoFlower Mine too. I basically rule that once an enemy has lost track of you you can hide. I rule broadly on what that means based on the totality of the circumstances (cover, lighting, distractions, buffs all play a role. If the cover isn't very convincing, I might allow the person to make the check at a penalty). You remain hidden until they are actively tracking you again. Creatures get their passive perception if you are hidden but in line of sight or doing something that would suggest they might hear you. If they've detected you prior to your last hide, they'll actively search for you (roll Perception) unless they are distracted (like, engaged in melee combat with someone else). The art of making it make sense is common sense and rewarding creativity (and sometimes punishing the lack thereof). The really tough part is arguably the way I do it you can be hidden from some enemies and not others.

@AnaseSkyrider

10 ай бұрын

Hiding is basically a feint. They can't clearly tell what your attack is, so you get advantage. But if you move away, then they're also losing where you are.

@AtelierGod

10 ай бұрын

@@grantstratton2239 action dash, bonus action dash, run around them so fast they get dizzy, run off somewhere as they are disoriented?

Adapting pathfinder stealth with dnd's obscured vision rules could work. you'd need to have cover /or be invisible /or in darkness vs non darkvision enemies /or in obscured terrain you make 3 levels of visibility: undetected, hidden, observed - undetected means enemy has no idea where you are - hidden means enemy knows your square but you still get hide benefits - observed means you are visible, or enemy moved into an angle you no longer have cover or obscurement

@condimentking3395

10 ай бұрын

Honestly, if no one made a character explicitly stealthy and suddenly I had to make a ruling on it, I'd probably do this. My instinct on rulings in 5e is generally to use pathfinder lmao

@RLKmedic0315

10 ай бұрын

Yet another thing that PF2E does better and more consistently than 5e

@justineberlein5916

2 ай бұрын

@@RLKmedic0315 Turns out, actually defining things can help streamline them. You'd think WotC would have learned that from MtG

I don't like Hiding applying the Invisible condition. While it makes some things work better it complicates others. with the new wording on the Invisible condition this means you can't hide from creatures with Blindsight, and Truesight, or who've cast See Invisibility

In terms of looking directly at an area with no distractions: to my mind, if you are behind a tree, there is a difference between any enemy knowing where you are literally (behind the tree) and being able to predict where you'll emerge from (left, right, any number of branches). Therefore it's not so much a case of, "oh they went behind a tree, they could be anywhere/I forgot they exist", but more of "I can't necessarily see exactly where they'll emerge from". So narratively if you successfully hide behind the tree, your stealth gives you to the upper hand when emerging, and if you fail, your movements to emerge were too slow/loud and you don't gain the upper hand. Again to my mind, this makes sense for popping out for an instant action, even if they are (narratively) looking in your direction. It doesn't make sense as soon as an action isn't instant, including any distance needing to be covered. I can't think of a way narratively that if you're looking at an area, someone could appear without cover or obscurement and be hidden. This applies mainly out of combat, but can also in combat if they are aware of no other threats and are solely looking at your hiding place. In combat where there are other threats to be wary of, I'd say there is sufficient distraction that there would be times when the seeker isn't directly looking at your hiding place, and your stealth roll represents your ability to seize that moment, and you are able to instantly shoot, or close the distance.

I totally agree 100% with everything you said. I'd rework stealth/hiding entirely to; "You are hidden if the enemy cannot see you, OR it doesn't know your location". I'd define "know your location" as a key word and play into how enemies can pass this qualifier. I'd make it that once you hide, you can move through heavy/light cover being unseen from those creature you hid from.

@AnaseSkyrider

10 ай бұрын

Alright but what about movement? In most games and such, you're not stealthy at a full sprint.

I'm glad you brought up the thing about hiding from friends too. It always bugs me when another player at the table will hide, and then either they or the DM seem to take delight in punishing every other player with "you can't see them". I think it's appropriate that a character MIGHT want to hide from their friends in some cases, but I wish it was more of a choice. If I'm hiding behind a wall from enemies on the other side, my friends on MY side of the wall shouldn't suddenly be unable to see me!

Some fixes that could potentially work: - Remove the "line of sight" part from the criteria for attempting to Hide. Obscurement and cover already apply to most situations and don't conflict with each other. I also just don't want this edition to bring back directional considerations in combat. - Add the suggested change for both the gain and loss of the condition, where it only applies to creatures that met the criteria for the check (with respect to obscurement and cover). - Partially add your suggestion regarding the DM's role, specifically to the part that ends the condition. Something along the lines of "The condition also ends if you move to a location or perform an action that would reasonably end it, as determined by the DM, unless you are able to make and succeed on a subsequent Hide check. That last part about a new roll is important because the Hide action is bound by the obscurement and cover criteria, so if you can't meet the criteria for the new check, you can't make a new roll, meaning the condition will end. It also covers those situations where players make a Stealth check at one part of an area but move to another part of the same area where that check, reasonably, should no longer apply. I don't think we need this part in the section for determining whether the initial check is possible, since the DM's role can be defined in the rules for obscurement and cover.

@Ahglock

10 ай бұрын

I'm mixed on directional sight. It is a bit of a pain in the ass, but the idea someone is always looking behind them when they are getting threatened in the front is just ludicrous. Or that people, even people on guard are always swiveling around. Its like people haven't seen guards before. Or had someone sneak up behind them. The game isn't a reality simulator, but when reality lets people hit the class fantasy of being a sneak more than the rules it seems like the rules went wrong. The rules should be more lenient than reality on letting people hit their class fantasy, not more difficult.

@foldionepapyrus3441

10 ай бұрын

I like that better, though it is still going to need work. The shifting from cover to cover quietly as a concept requiring more roles I like as it lets you not have vision cones and excess complexity but continue to gain for having been hidden initially, presumably timing your movements to theirs you can sneak up on folks. Which then lets the stealth heavy class/subclass gain advantage on that I'm following you or moving about stealth check, or treat any roll under 10 as 10 or something similar. But really you shouldn't even need any cover to try and hide - you are wearing the ghillie suit, magic cloak of hiding, or happen to be say an earth elemental trying to look like a normal dirt and rock pile at the time - it should be possible if very difficult to hide in plain sight like that - in the same way a street performer painted to look like a statue gets away with it if sometimes. So really like ranged attacking being behind cover should modify your stealth roll against the folks to which that cover applies and as long as you don't move again and they don't come to investigate your hiding spot that should be that. As that lets you do stuff like plan an ambush where some of your party might be really really obviously in sight but hiding via more deception methods like their natural camouflage.

@RJWhitmore

10 ай бұрын

The thing is that line of sight is almost ubiquitously defined as something similar to "The line of sight, also known as visual axis or sightline (also sight line), is an imaginary line between a viewer/observer/spectator's eye(s) and a subject of interest, or their relative direction." - which means technically everything can be in your line of sight, as long as your eye is pointed in that direction. Some definitions do require that an object be 'looked at', which is more ambiguous, but still. Now usually, when people state 'out of something's line of sight' they mean that the line of sight is obstructed, so we could presume they mean this easily enough. However, that then means that being in the dark but with nothing obstructing the line of sight would mean that the D&D One rules will not let you take the Hide action. Which, actually isn't *that* problematic if we presume that being completely in the dark automatically grants hidden - but then why talk about heavily obscurred in the Hide action (or Total Cover, for that matter)? Then yeah, just closing your own eyes would mean that there are not any visible enemies, so you could take the Hide action as long as you meet the other requirements... So, agreed, remove the line of sight part. ---------- That said, I would make it clear how Hidden can be acquired outside of the Hide action. Hidden means unseen and unheard (which grants Advantage on attacks as per the Invisible condition, and your location not being known) - as long as those two circumstances are met then you are Hidden. I would then have it so that if the target then wants to *remain* Hidden in areas that they could potentially be seen or heard in otherwise, but not clearly - like lightly obscured areas or partial cover - THEN they could take the Hide action and have their result be contested by the opponent's passive Perception (or a Search action) in those areas. So, if you run behind the wall of a house you become hidden to people on the other side as long as you are also no longer heard - no action required. However, if you want to remain hidden after someone follows you then you have to take the Hide action and be in some bushes or something. Naturally, if you further go into some completely unlit area, or go behind another wall, then you are still hidden because you are not still not visible at all. Wood elves and the like could take the Hide action under their respective appropriate circumstances even if not Hidden first to gain and hold it. ---------- We have rules for not being visible based on Heavily Obscured, Total Cover, and magical Invisibility (as well as Blind opponents). We should have rules for being unheard too. Suggestion: Have the DM decide on an environmental DC (some guidance tables would be nice) and have the creature DC be based on distance (either a simple formala or tables). Require that both be passed by passive Perception (or a Search action) for the check to succeed. Clunky armor would lower the creature DC by 5 as it currently does. Example, lets say we have a simple creature DC be that every 5ft away adds one to the DC, starting at 0. So, a creature 30ft away will have a DC of 6. There is a raging river nearby for a DC of 15. If the passive Perception check beats 15 they will hear the creature. Likewise, a Search action result with 15 or higher would also hear the creature. Now instead, the creature is 70ft away, so DC 14. There is a low wind rustling the nearby trees for a DC of 8. A passive Perception check of 14 (or a Search action result) is required to hear the creature.

The obvious problem is that they're trying to make Hidden a condition. It's not. It doesn't affect you alone. It's an interaction with one or more creatures. So you probably keep either the ability check or saving throw, and treat it consistently with any other similar check like deception/grappling/persuasion etc

I like the explanation that Hiding means the target just got distracted and stopped thinking about how you are behind the tree, so the monster stops targeting you, while just running behind the tree (and not taking the Hide action) still draws attention to you. This usually works in my games because there is always multiple PCs, but it does break down if you're in a 1v1. I really wish they'd improve the rules somewhat at least...

@andrewshandle

10 ай бұрын

"That guy just shot me with an arrow and now I'm in a fight for my life here! He just ran behind a tree, I better follow...oh, look, a butterfly!" ;)

@grantstratton2239

10 ай бұрын

I always say that if a creature hasn't detected you, you can always try to sneak past them, even if you are in plain sight. The way I think of it, most people making stealth checks will be moving in and out of cover. A person on watch can't pay close attention to every place they need to be paying attention to at once. Stealth in plain sight takes advantage of a person's changing attention plus whatever's in the environment, moving from cover to cover at the appropriate times.

They need to go back to the drawing board with Hidden and Invisibility because even outside the conflicting rules, the problem with Hide (and Invisible) is it's a singular condition on the player/creature hiding and not on the individual players/creatures who may see them. The rules fall apart so quickly once you have multiple enemies on the battlefield who may see the person who is hiding. Take the example in Chris' video where a Rogue is hiding behind a tree from a guard. Now what if there was a second guard like 5 squares south/down from the Rogue on the battle map. That second guard can easily see the Rogue, so the Rogue can't hide from guard number 1 because all guards have telepathy apparently. That second guard might be gagged, effected by a silence spell or in combat, but somehow just by Guard 2 knowing the Rogue is behind the tree, the Rogue can't hide from Guard 1. So silly.

@anoretu1995

10 ай бұрын

When you come to their line of sight. They can do search action to find you or they can simply see you immediately by their passive perception anyway so you can hide and be invisible but you can't go with it if that guard "finds" you also guards still can TRY to attack you with disadvantage if they want. "Invisible" condition doesn't stop you from being attacked.

Poor Yoshimo has never been the same. 😪 He used to Hide In Shadows and sneak ahead! Now he's confused and doesn't know how to sneak anymore, so he waits to "gather his party before venturing forth"

They should stay away with hiding granting any kind of condition, especially invisible. It should be dependent on each other creature in the area, not just a flat status. If I hide from Joe behind the door, but Frank is in the room with me and can clearly see me, I am hidden.... from Joe only.

I would imagine that "stealth" roll would narratively encompass not just hiding or sneaking, but also an effort to remain unseen, so when you walk through someones field of vision and defeat his perception checks, that would imply that the Rogue employed some sort of distraction or took advantage of a blink or something to that effect to pass unseen right in front of someone.

@ungainlytitan1460

10 ай бұрын

Agreed make Invisibility a Someone else's problem effect.

I always imagined taking the hide action as starting to make contious effort to be "unnoticeable". Like if you are behind a tree you are not visible, but wearing armor and talking will still mean everybody knows you are there. But if you take the hide action youtry to be silent (dc 15) and are more carefull to stay out of sight/ when running towards them for sneak attack stay out of sightlines. Even if Mechanichally Sightlines dont exist, enemies still only look at one direction at a time.

I’ve done my own set of hiding rules before based on the earlier OneDnD playtests. They consist of three parts: General rules for Perception and Obscurement, The Hide Action and Hidden Condition and Movement rules for Sneaking. (I haven’t actually playtested these so take them with a grain of salt). Perception Rules Vision is divided in Sight and Senses, Sight is a creatures ability to see something and Senses are its ability to know where something is without relying on Sight. Sight includes Vision as well as special forms of Sight like Darkvision, Blindsight, and Truesight. Senses include Hearing (and at the DM’s discretion Smell, too) as well as special Senses like Tremorsense. When a creature can’t rely on its Sight to know where something or someone is, it relies on its Senses instead. Obscurement Obscurement affects Sight and is divided into No Obscurement (clear vision), Lightly Obscured (dim light, tall grass, heavy precipitation), and Heavily Obscured (darkness, invisibility, objects that completely hide your body). The DM’s has the final say on which types of Obscurement apply in any given situation. Obscurement and Special Sight and Senses Always determine Obscurement without considering special Sight or Senses (like Darkvision or Tremorsense). If a special Sight or Sense allows a creature to see or sense a Hidden creature as if it had No Obscurement or as if it was only Lightly Obscured, it can ignore that creature’s Hidden condition. However, remember that special Senses don’t allow a creature to see their target, they are only aware of it’s presence and position. Hide Action If you are Heavily Obscured from one or more creatures you can use your Action to Hide from them. Roll a Dexterity (Stealth) Check and if the result is higher than any of the creatures’ Passive Wisdom (Perception) you are Hidden from these creatures. Hidden Condition Concealed. Any creature you are Hidden from doesn’t know your current position. Such creatures cannot attack you or affect you with any effect that requires its target to be seen. Surprise. When you roll Initiative, and are Hidden from every enemy that rolls Initiative at the start of combat, you have Advantage on the roll. Attacks Affected. Your Attack Rolls have Advantage against any creature you are Hidden from. Ending the Condition. You stop being Hidden from any creature that can hear you immediately after any of the following occurrences: You make a sound louder than a whisper, another creature finds you and alarms others of your presence, you move without sneaking or use the Dash Action, you make an Attack Roll, or you cast a Spell with a verbal component. Additionally, if you end your turn while you aren’t Heavily Obscured from a creature you are Hidden from, you stop being hidden from that creature and it might alarm others as mentioned above. Sneaking While you are Hidden you can sneak without revealing your position. While sneaking each foot of Movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in Difficult Terrain). At your DM’s discretion, you might also be able to sneak through a creature’s field of view while remaining Hidden from it but if you end your Turn without being Obscured again, you stop being Hidden from that creature. Additionally, you can attempt to move normally while Hidden without spending extra Movement by rolling a Dexterity (Stealth) Check as part of your Move. On a success you can sneak without spending extra Movement until the end of your turn. On a failure you stop being Hidden.

@josequiles7430

2 ай бұрын

Did you ever get to playtest these rules? Because they seem pretty good and I'm considering stealing them...

@Greenomb

2 ай бұрын

@@josequiles7430 No, I haven’t been able to playtest them but feel free to “steal” them for your own game!

I do think part of the problem is the focus on characters "Hiding," rather than characters "Perceiving." Since when you hide, you aren't hidden from the world, you are hidden from someone who is looking for you. I would reframe the rules to spell out how character vision works: you either 1) automatically perceive things; 2) perceive things through a passive perception vs. stealth challenge; or 3) perceive things through the Search Action. Perceiver States: 1. Distracted (Examples: Fast Travel; Help Action). You can perceive anything that is unobscured with a passive perception check. 2. Normal (Examples: Normal Travel; Standard Guard Duty). You automatically perceive anything that is unobscured. You can perceive things that are lightly obscured with a passive perception check, or automatically perceive them with a Search action. You can perceive things that are heavily obscured with a Search Action. 3. Alert (Examples: on watch; in combat). You automatically perceive anything that is unobscured or lightly obscured. You can perceive things that are heavily obscured with a passive perception check, or automatically perceive them with a Search Action. The Hide action just sets the DC for when using a Stealth vs. Passive Perception skill contest. Rogues can maybe get features that make them automatically lightly/heavily obscured when hiding.

I think one easy way to help (but not fully) streamline this is to make half cover "light obscurement" and three-quarters cover "heavy obscurement". Then it becomes much easier to write rules about line of sight not necessarily meaning they can literally see you.

Or perhaps we can use the DnD Next playtest rules from 2013: " *Conditions for Stealth* In order to avoid detection, you need some way to remain out of sight, either something to hide behind or an area of poor visibility to locate yourself in. *Stay out of sight.* You can’t just stand in the middle of an empty, lit room and hope to avoid notice. Something must conceal you, perhaps a large object, a piece of terrain, or an immobile creature of a sufficient size, such as a slumbering dragon. Regardless of what stands between you and a viewer, it must cover at least half your body for you to hide behind it. An environmental phenomenon that obscures you from view can also provide a means to hide. A *heavily obscured* area typically contains darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage. A creature in a heavily obscured area is out of sight, just as it if were hiding behind an obstruction, and thus can try to hide. A *lightly obscured* area typically contains dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage. Some monsters and characters have special abilities that enable them to try to hide even in areas that are only lightly obscured. *Stay quiet.* It’s assumed that you try to avoid making noise while hiding, and your Dexterity check also represents your ability to keep quiet. If you make a noise, such as yelling a warning to an ally or knocking over a vase, you give away your position and are thus no longer hidden." Thanks to @PackTactics for bringing this rule to my attention a year ago, I been using this instead of the official one and it's been great. P.S. For anyone that wants the full text, I found the full playtest packets in a reddit post by the user "D_Gibb"

4E had some good hiding rules with its three levels: partially concealed, totally concealed and invisible. Most of those rules could be ported to 5e without any tinkering, and I implore people to check them out.

@stordarth

10 ай бұрын

Even 4e bungled them at first, but the revised rules in PHB2 fixed the issues. It basically says the same as this One D&D blurb, but with more context and detail so that it's actually clear. Definitely check out the PHB2 updated version.

Since it says attack roll rather than just attack in the playtest rules, that means the hidden character can grapple or shove and still remain invisible.

My fix would be along the lines of: - You may take the hide action to hide from any creatures that are not directly observing you (typically this means creatures that do not have line-of-sight to you, but this may be different for creatures with special senses). Make a Stealth check and compare it with the passive perception of all such creatures. Creatures who's passive perception you beat are unaware of your position until something would alert them to it (typically entering their line-of-sight, making a loud noise or being pointed out by a creature you didn't hide from). - You may make a Stealth check as part of movement or an action that would reveal you to a creature (such as approaching a creature or moving between two areas of total cover). If this check exceeds the passive perception of the creature that would see you, you remain unseen and the creature remains unaware of your position. In this way you may stealthily approach a creature to attack it with advantage. This applies only during the movement or action, you cease to be hidden if you are not behind cover at the end of your turn. - In some instances, Stealth checks may have disadvantage (such as trying to sneak up on a creature in an echo-y cave or while dressed as a clown) or creatures' passive perception may have advantage (such as a guard watching a door). It is rarely impossible to sneak past somebody though, use of the Stealth skill includes using distractions and at higher levels, characters may possess above-human levels of stealth - let the non-magical characters do impressive things with their skills. So, with this: - Being hidden is distinct from being unseen. - Hiding behind the tree in the example makes sense because it's possible that you could have moved behind the rock without the enemy noticing. - Hiding affects creatures selectively - it's possible to hide from your enemies and not your allies. - You can do the classic sneaky backstab. - You can do the classic sneaky hops between cover. - You can even combine the two to backstab someone then dart behind cover before they can pinpoint your location. - You could sneak through the guarded door, but you may have disadvantage (there's not much cover, you're approaching from the front) and the guard would have advantage on their passive perception. This feels appropriate, I can imagine a stealth-expertise rogue slipping through but anyone else would really struggle.

Here's a definition which I tend to use. I don't often write rules formally so the language might be a tad off. What do you think? Hide [Action] You roll a stealth check to hide against any creature from which you are heavily obscured or behind three-quarters cover or full cover. If the value of the check is greater than the passive perception of one of those creatures then you are hidden from that creature. When hidden from a creature they do not know your precise location so your attack rolls against that creature have advantage and their attack rolls against you have disadvantage. The hidden condition ends if you make a noise louder than a whisper, make an attack, cast a spell with a verbal component or occupy a space without heavy obscurement, three quarters cover or full cover relative to that creature. After the condition ends, your sudden appearance gives your first attack advantage against any creature from whom you were hidden previously in the current turn. A creature can also attempt to find you by succeeding on a wisdom (perception) check against your stealth check value, at which point you are no longer hidden from that creature.

This video is a great summary of why 5e is way more of a hassle for a DM than it needs to be. The first page says "these rules are guidelines" but then when you really look at it you see that it is actually suggestions of a rules system while there is an awful lot of missing rules.

Awesome analysis! For hiding I think a solution would be “you are invisible to all creatures, except those you choose and can see” Alternatively, I’d be happy with a separate condition called “hidden” to distinguish the nuances between the two. Sure they might be the same except for 1 or 2 things but at least it’s clear. Paralyzed and Stunned are almost exactly the same, save for 1 bullet point. I’d also like to see Flanking as a condition, so monsters (or items) can be Immune to it and make thematic sense, such as in the case of beholders who for sure have 360 vision. This could also extend to tremorsense as well. I’m not too big a fan of the current flanking rules, so my proposal is that creatures can take the Help Action as a Bonus Action against Flanked creatures. Sure it’s a bit weaker (probably a good thing) but now allow ranged attacks to benefit from it for more tactical variety and role identity.

One rough idea that could fix some of the problems with the Hide[action] is timing. If you decide to Hide, which is an action, clearly there's an action economy going on, which implies rounds are happening. We could, therefore, ask for initiative rolls from the player, and when the player gains the Invisible condition from the Hide[action], simply have the player hiding lose the Invisible condition at the end of the round he or she is no longer heavily obscured, behind three-quarters cover, or behind full cover, in addition to the other ways to lose the Invisible condition from the Hide[action]. That still might require some discretion from the dm, but at least it defines clearly the time you have as the hider to act while "out in the open". You could also instead of rolling for initiative ask what the player is doing the moment they step out from Hiding, in order to arbitrate actions that would take up the single round they would have. Take the hallway example. Is the guard who is set next to the door constantly looking down the hallway? Never blinking, never distracted, never turning to the side? Well you can arbitrate likely through some debate with the players, but with this new rule you can *handwave* these opportunities as present by simply giving the Rogue a single round with which to do things before they are no longer Invisible. Now mechanically, this justifies the Rogue popping out from around the corner quietly approaching the door, and attempting to slip in under the guard's notice. I'd probably still want the guard to make an active search when you pass within view, but we can add a note about active searches and not being in obscurement/cover that the dm needs to adjudicate, as not every situation should have that chance to be found when moving out of heavy obscurement/three-quarters cover/total cover. However, if they walk up to the door and its locked, or perhaps there's something beyond the door that can clearly see them, the challenge hasn't ended. The Rogue now needs to quickly pick the lock, or use some spell to fool the guard, and become unseen again in the next room before the round is up! That sounds like a challenge that a lot of players would enjoy, and mechanically benefits spells like Greater and Regular Invisibility, since the time you have to act is far greater from these spells than the single round that the Hide[action] provides. I know this isn't all the problems with the Hide[action], but it at least addresses one of its main concerns, how to deal with moving out of obscurement/cover.

It's the Mystery Men superpower where you can turn invisible as long as no one is looking at you

Another thing is that you can't hide from a particular enemy, it has to be all visible enemies

“The code is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules.”- Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean.

Part of the issue is that we need to acknowledge a need for conditions that are relative to other things. You aren't just Invisible, but you're Invisible to some creatures and not others. The way I run hiding is that creatures have a 360 degree awareness on a per-round basis, but at any given moment, their attention is much more narrow. If a hidden creature can succeed in a Stealth roll, they can move within "line of sight" of a creature while remaining hidden. So a player could step out to fire an arrow, move between areas of total concealment, or even close the distance to attack with a melee weapon, assuming they have the movement. But if they end their movement out in the open, the creature they were attempting to hide from will automatically see them. However, if a creature has a reason to focus their attention in a specific direction, like they're standing watch, then it would be impossible to sneak pas their field of view. On the other hand, I would give players advantage on attempts to sneak behind these creatures (since these creatures are effectively blind). If these back-turned guards wouldn't have a chance to hear the sneaking player, I would have the stealth check automatically succeed. I wouldn't normally make a player roll to hide if they're completely obscured by some object. Exceptions might be if there was a reason they'd be particularly noisy, or the room is so dead-quiet that even breathing and slight shifts in the body are audible. I feel like being Lightly Obscured should generally be enough to allow attempts to hide "in the open", but I suppose I don't want to make features from Skulker and the Wood Elf pointless, so I think I'd run it this way. Everyone can hide if Lightly Obscured, but Wood Elves and Skulkers can move and remain undetected while moving through their Lightly Obscured areas, even if the observe is intently staring at that area.

- The hide action can only be used while you are behind total cover or heavily obscured. You make a stealth check and gain the "Hidden" condition. The result of that check becomes the DC in regards to searching for you. - While hidden, creatures who have no line of sight to you and have a passive perception lower than your stealth DC cannot pinpoint your exact location, cannot target you with attack rolls or spells that require sight and you have advantage on attack rolls against those creatures. Your speed is also halved. - The condition ends if: 1- A creature makes a search action to look for you, against your DC; 2- You make a sound louder than a whisper; 3- You make an attack roll or cast a spell with verbal components; 4- If you are no longer heavily obscured or behind total cover from a creature from which you were hiding at the end of your turn, or at any moment during other turns. I think that enables most common interactions and remains mostly logical. With this ruling, you can in fact be hiding in shadows, and then move up creatures to backstab them, but speed is halved, so most creatures must dash to be able to do this to creatures more than 15 ft away. It also works under the example given in the video, where there's a creature in bright light watching over a nearby door. You'd probably also have to dash in order to do this, and I would likely ask for an additional sleight of hand check (against the guard's passive perception, or whatever DC sees fit) to open the door without making a noise. It takes two ability checks and a dash action in order to do this, so I think it's fair. Yes, you just moved right in front of the guard, but you could describe that the hiding creature waits for the right moment when the guard looks away for a split second, or yawns. DMs have to make up reasonable excuses to other ridiculous situations in game anyway, so this fits right in.

@muddlewait8844

10 ай бұрын

That’s pretty solid work! Thanks!

At our table, we use a combination of the rules and common sense - at least we try to. 1) We have added a “Hidden” condition that is gained by succeeding a Hide action with check. 2) A PC can “sneak” up on another creature while having the Hidden condition and the DM informs the PC of any modifiers beforehand (such as presence of shadows, direction of the target, alertness disposition of the target etc.). The PC makes an additional stealth check. 3) Feats, abilities etc. will help or hurt the checks. 4) If a player wants their PC to try something, they explain to the DM first. If it does or does not “make sense” then the DM explains before the player rolls. 5) We try to record what we did for future examples and modifications.

I run my games with line of sight. Works for the most part, but I've had once or twice players get upset when a 16-20+ doesn't affect when guards are staring at the only exit to a tower from 5 feet away readying an attack.

I believe the three quarters cover thing is referring to the relationship between the tile that you are in and the tile that the enemy is in as layed out in the 2015 rules. It makes sense that the tile you are in could have three quarters cover and your character could squeeze themselves behind the cover to be totally out of line of sight. Also, they should have you choose the creatures you are trying to hide from in a similar way to choosing creatures not to affect with spirit guardians for example.

it's helpful to look at BG3 for inspiration for hiding. in bg3 you can hide if: > outside of creature's cone of view > inside cone of view if half-lit (stealth check) > inside cone of view if full dark > automatically spotted if in full-bright (no stealth check) >automatically spotted if within 15y of enemy view cone [the color of the innermost 15y is a darker red] would recommend playing or watching a bit of bg3 stealth gameplay to understand it a little better

@broomemike1

10 ай бұрын

except that 5e doesn't have this "cone of view" that BG3's stuff is all based on.

@Capt.Fail.

10 ай бұрын

The problem is that BG3 is a video game that has a computer running these cones of view. D&D doesn’t have the luxury of implementing a system like that because it would overcomplicate running the game.

@KaelinGoff

10 ай бұрын

Yes. Facing is the way to go, IF you have either a VTT or video game to handle it. Doing facing on a live table is a massive time sink with minor payoff.

A point of clarification that I think would help a lot is around what "try to conceal yourself" means. To your point, examples would be perhaps more valuable than clear rules. "You tuck your weapon in and arrange your body in a way that your surroundings better cover you." "You arrange the foliage to break up another creature's line of sight." "You hold your breath to avoid making noise." In this case the stealth check correlates with how successfully you are able to accomplish your method of hiding depending on the circumstances. That also helps inform the follow up situations of when the invisible condition ends, i.e. when your method of hiding from the creature no longer works. The set DC 15 makes no sense, and it should really depend on the type of cover you are working with. Something like passive perception +/- some modifier based on total cover, 3/4 cover, etc.

Things like this are what the playtest should have been about in my opinion. I think class reworks are cool, but to me only the martials, monk and sorcerer (arguably) needed much fundamental revision, but rules interactions should have been what were ironed out. Things like wild shape, hiding, problem spells, etc. But these hiding rules and stuff get buried in the 23 pages of class changes that are going to grab much more attention to most people.

This helps highlight the problems we have been struggling with for years. What about this? It needs some refinement, but seems like a better start than the current rules. - Invisible means you can't be targeted, and you benefit as an unseen attacker, but your location might be known. - Hidden means your location is not known, you can't be targeted, and you benefit as an unseen attacker. - Obscurement can apply to any sense (obstacles obscure vision, noise obscures hearing, wind/stench obscures smell, etc.). - The hider rolls a stealth check when hiding or moving to a new location while hiding. Result is the Hiding DC. - The DM rolls a perception check against the Hiding DC when conditions change (perceiver searches, perceiver moves, hider moves, obscurement changes, etc.). - Modifiers to the perception check: +10 if hider is easy to detect (in range of a sense with no obscurement) -10 if hider is hard to detect (out of range of senses or has heavy obscurement to senses) +5 if perceiver is actively searching or otherwise has advantage -5 if perceiver is distracted or hider otherwise has advantage - If a perceiver succeeds, the hider's location is known. This makes it possible to shoot a creature from hiding or to sneak around a guard, but success depends a lot on important factors. It allows a hider to sneak around a guard, or a guard to actively search for a stationary hider. It means the hider can be behind a tree but still in range of hearing, so their location can still be known. And it gives incentives for guards to stay focused and minimize obscurement and for hiders to create obscurement and distractions (which can simulate facing away from the hider).

Having stealth give you the invisible condition is just a bad way of doing things. Conditions should NEVER be utilized to define the relationship between two entities - they should reflect a state that is independent of the observer.

@broomemike1

10 ай бұрын

Well, I think that the rules are assuming constant chatter between NPCs, so it is an all of nothing state. Not that I think that's a good system, mind you.

I have thought for a while that hiding should be split into hiding and stealthily. Hiding is done in combat (or other chaotic situations) where can you cause an enemy to lose track of you, making it possible to quickly duck behind a tree while the enemy is occupied. Stealthing would be for quieter situations. As it is in my opinion, the hide action is trying to do too much, so splitting it (or just differentiating it's mechanics) would be helpful. I do not know what the differences might be, but I think it's a good place to start.

For me, the distinction with skulker is that you would still be lightly obscured from a creature with darkvision in darkness, as for them it counts as dim light, so you could hide in cases such as that

I think the "line of sight" stipulation was supposed to be for someone who was technically behind cover, but on the same side of the cover as the enemy they're hiding from. Probably could be phrased better though

Dim light qualifying for hiding has some interesting interactions. You know, if you have lets say the Skulker feat, have 2 lvls in rogue...and you're a twilight cleric for the rest...I know, I know, we don't play twilight clerics here, but just as an example. Seriously though, the only thing about Hide is this: do you take DND and play it as a video game primarily, or are you more 50/50 on the mechanics / rp part. In video games, you can just "vanish" in front of NPCs and they just move out, because they drop threat or aggro or whatever the mechanic of the game is labeled. In DND, if we implement RP elements, the NPCs are not brain dead, so they would know to check your last known location.

@SortKaffe

11 ай бұрын

Dim light should only qualify for hiding from creatures without any special senses (Darkvision, Blindsight, Tremorsense, or True Sight) just as your Stealth check should be against each creature's passive Perception. Players do not need to know whether they've successfully hidden or not, as their PC doesn't know either.

The line that "you must be out of any visible enemy's line of sight" is meaningful, but in a weird way. Let's say that you walk into a room with a friend, you want to have a conversation, but what if someone's watching you? Well, if you take the hide action, roll a 16, but there's someone else hiding in that room, or just hanging out invisible, then you would not be able hide, so you could use your inability to hide to determine if someone else was hiding.

I also imagine that the successful stealth roll isnt just a crouch. It also includes throwing a rock as a distraction and the lime. That's how you "convert" 3/4 cover to full cover - dont look at my shoulders because there is a noise nover there.

I think that a lot of the hiding rules should be up to dm discretion, it'd be impossible to come up with one procedure that makes sense in all cases. I also think that the 3/4 cover rule implies that you can break line of sight by crouching or ducking slightly. Certain actions also shouldn't break concealment until after they're performed.

The way I read it, that clause about out of any visible enemy's line of sight, is that it's to prevent the case where you have total cover against 1 enemy, but there are other enemies against whom that cover doesn't count. If they can still see you, then you can't hide. Given that enemies can communicate for free to each other, it makes some sense that you have to be able to hide from all of them to become actually hidden.

I presume the visible enemy line is there so you don't get the other dumb scenario where RAW when you try to hide and there's an invisible enemy that can see you, your DM has to go "Nope you can't hide"

Hidden and Invisible shouldn’t be conditions that affect you. They need to implement conditions that have multiple actors. You can be hidden from some creatures but not others. One person spotting you doesn’t mean you aren’t hidden from others (though the spotter can communicate your location, perhaps giving advantage to others seeking you).

In 5e, I interpreted it like this: Stealth isn't the ability to go unseen, it's the ability to go unheard. So like visible is stage 1 (can be targeted), invisible is stage 2 (cant useeffwcts requiring vision, but they know where you are based on context and can attack you at disadvantage), and Hidden is stage 3 (they don't know you're there)

I am the Lady of Pain. Over the last 3 years I have fixed most of TM's fixes and published it in a multiverse. The Seattle corporation is no longer required.

I feel like the OneDnD rules are a fairly good way of describing hiding as concisely as possible, giving you an all-purpose tool of a contested stealth/perception check. But it's indeed a barebones solution. More specifics would improve the system, especially about the hiding action itself. But a lot of that depends on circumstance, and you don't really stop to think about those circumstances until they come up. Who do you hide from (those would be your enemies in the stealth scenario), how do you hide and what does that mean for other people, like your party or bystanders? Moving quietly in the shadows doesn't work in brightly lit or crowded areas, and it's hard to camouflage yourself in urban areas. Darkvision helps to detect people in shadows, but not in crowds or under that pile of leaves. But if the rulebook has to account for those factors mechanically, then you can probably print a second handbook filled with stealth rules, methods by which you can hide, detection techniques, et cetera. So I think it might actually be best if DMs and players come up with suitable rules for the scenario, rather than trying to adapt their scenarios to fit the rules.

Ideal language: "With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. When concealed from someone, that person does not know your location. To hide from someone you must be Heavy Obscured, behind Three-Quarters Cover, or Total Cover from those you are hiding from and they must not be able to see you. If you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you. To succeed on hiding from someone your Dexterity (Stealth) check must be higher than their passive Perception. "On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition with respect to the people you are concealed from. Make note of your check's total, which becomes the DC for a creature to find you with a Search action using a Wisdom (Perception) check. "The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: you make a sound louder than a whisper, a person you're concealed from find you with a Search action, you make an attack roll, you cast a spell with a verbal component." A person that is invisible to you, you still know what square they are in as if they were visable, but you can't see them (you hear them, notice their footprints etc.), so being invisible allows you to not be seen, but you still need to hide if you don't want to be noticed. If they are getting rid of passive Perception, then just use the 15 DC. Ideally, you would be able to hide from "anyone except those in my party" assuming "my party" is clear to the DM. And just because you fail to hide from one person doesn't mean you fail to hide from everyone else (might need a "someone that can see you tells those you are hidden from where you are" end to the condition in that case).

I've always ran it a particular way, let's see if I can make it simple. When you make a stealth check, you designate who you are hiding from. Then, you must be in a location where you are able to hide, this is more of a check for "Are you standing in the middle of an empty well lit room?" So long as it is reasonable that you could hide (darkness, crates, barrels, anything your character could physically hide behind even if it means crawling on the ground) you may attempt to hide. The stealth check DC is equal to the passive perception of those you are hiding from, if there are more than 4 targets you are hiding from that could all see you when you move into an open area you have disadvantage on the stealth to account for so many people to keep track of that they can generally see at all times in most directions. If you are unaware of someone and thus are not hiding from them, and you move into an open area - that person can see you without making a roll or if you are well covered by obscurement of any kind to them they either used their passive -5 or roll with disadvantage for free to notice the hiding creature. If detected, that person can act to alert them, but must do so in a normal manner available to them, they dont just all suddenly see him. This could trigger an initiative roll to act if they notice each other. While hidden, you are unseen by those you are hiding from (not everyone), giving you the unseen attacker bonus, and you can maintain your stealth so long as you can move from cover/obscurement to another form of cover or obscurement within your movement. Otherwise, you lose your hidden status at the end of your movement when you end in an area with no cover or obscurement. So you could sneak up on anyone so long as you could leave your hiding spot, and get to your target within your movement. For things like "Your job is to sit here - and watch this door. If it opens, you sound the alarm!" your player or DM should describe how you found a clever way to detect the guard- if coming in through the other side, and distracted the guard (from either side) to get them to stop looking at the door long enough for you to make your move. Your stealth roll is not just your ability to hide, but your ability to create distractions allowing you to remain hidden and should be included unless you are magically vanishing from sight. Other things I use include, active search, where people generally use passive for everything but if they are especially vigilant they may make a roll, and replace their passive with the perception check they made, if they choose, they can use their passive if they roll under a 10, and that lasts for the duration of the watch. People can also make a perception check on their turn if they are aware of a hiding creature that has returned to hiding. This requirement prevents some spam but does allow people to inform others of a hiding creature, and they can make attempts to find it. Finally, a known hiding spot cannot be used repeatedly in combat against people who were present to see them use it already. So you cant hide behind a tree, and pop out over and over to shoot, the enemies will be watching for you to pop out from behind that tree. Your stealth can easily let you move to a new spot for cover, and you can pop out from there, surprising anyone who didn't see you move. The best way to handle this imo is if your stealthed character is appearing from locations they wouldn't obviously be at normally, you maintain your stealth with no disadvantages. This does allow you to repeatedly move from one hiding spot, to another- and back again, but at this point it is on them for not checking your hiding spot you keep popping in from. Im sure that can be condensed but I would love to know any holes that can be poked in it, and see it written like DnD rules so it follows the format and everyone can understand it.

I wonder if an easy to understand field of vision rule could work. In my home game, I often use old miniature war gaming figures, that have a vision range, which is simply marked with a white line on the edge of the pedestal. In vtt's, that would be very easy and even IRL, just making a round token with vision markers would be enough.

First change it to hiding from creatures of my choice. Next, I would make it so you must be obscured, behind total cover or behind three quarters cover at the moment you take the hide action and when it is not your turn. Then I'd add the stipulation that creatures who were aware of you know where you were located when you took the hide action, but not any changes to your location while concealed. This means I can hide in one spot and then run over to a different hiding spot. People know where I initially hid but not where my final hiding place is. They can still take search action to find me, but if they can guess where my hiding spot is and can position themself to see me that also works. This makes hiding from creature's of my choice unproblematic since someone can inform the person I'm hiding from to walk over and see where I'm at.

I think the point of the any enemy line of sight is to prevent the rules lawyer from stating I'm hiding from him so it doesn't matter who else can see me. As a non combat example: The rogue wants to steal some apples from a farmer so he hides behind the stone fence. He has total cover from the farmer, but the farmer's son is standing on your side of the fence. You can't hide from him so you can't hide at all. It can also go to combat with multiple enemies strung out along the road. Some won't see behind the tree and some will.

When _Solasta: Crown of the Magister_ had to implement this tangle of semi-rules into a videogame, they ended up with a homebrew interpretation that isn't half bad! To use the Hide action, you need to first break the line-of-effect between you and the enemy (i.e. you need full cover). Enemies also have a detection radius (which is pretty big, but not very _tall,_ so a flying or spider-climbing Rogue can often hide on the ceiling) beyond which you can hide as if you were in full cover. The lighting conditions and the armor weight of the hiding party affects this detection radius. If all the conditions are met, the Hide action gives you the Hidden condition (advantage on attack rolls, enemy pretends you don't exist). Thereafter, if you attack, cast a spell, or move outside full cover while within the enemy's detection radius, all enemies who could detect you roll Perception vs. your Stealth; if they all fail, you remain hidden. _Invisibility_ gives you advantage on attack rolls and disadvantage on attack rolls against you, but enemies still know exactly where you are and can attack you; however, it also makes it so you can ignore the conditions for Hiding.

@datonkallandor8687

10 ай бұрын

Yup, Solastas implementation is clean and works well. Arguably too well, since thanks to being able to break up movement with actions and bonus action hide on rogues, it's very easy for a stealthy ranged rogue to just be permanently hidden and get advantage every turn. But hey that's the system WotC made.

I feel your frustration with hide rules. Here is how I do it. The player hides as per normal. I then require them to move at half movement to maintain stealth. This allows a normal player to be at a corner hidden and step out and move (half speed) towards an enemy and gain that juicy melee advantage attack. However, if they want to remain hidden by the end of their turn they would need to move to a new location that provides cover. So a rogue could move, dash, then hide again. for a total of 30 ft of movement and a new hide check representing the time they spent in line of sight. I make the assumption that they are trying to move at the right moment when the heads are turned and such. Still giving the bad guy a chance to hear, spot, feel them. of course attacking brings you out of stealth. This has made my games much more fun.

Brief reminder that some systems have whole chapters dedicated to explaining skill usage and WOTC can barely spare more than 5 pages on them

one thing that seems really stupid is that once you successfully hide and get the invisible condition, the condition doesn't break until either you take specific actions or a creature specifically looks for you. So you could drop into an alley, hide, and then walk out onto a crowded street, steal things right in front of the merchants nose, wave your arms in someone's face and you would still be treated as totally invisible. Their's no duration either. Furthermore, the whole condition ends if one person sees you. you could be hiding in a crowd, and then a keen eyed spy on the edge searches for you and finds you, and even if this spy is hidden and doesn't tell anyone, suddenly your no long invisible and the whole crowd can see you.

The 3/4ths… could read if you are bidding you can stay hidden as long as you remain in atleast 3/4ths cover from a creature. aka you need full cover but then can peak around, but if you walk it, it’s visible. Aka full cover to get hidden, then can do the peak around. Would solve the door and bush issue. As far as who can see you, it just comes relative, as it’s hidden from only creatures you have full or 3/4. Then the distraction makes sence to make people face the other way.

I think the purpose of hiding mentioning visible creatures is so that you can't discover that there's an invisible enemy by attempting to hide. But it does so in such a poor way in that youre still invisible to them, even if they could see you when you hid

The main thing with stealth in ttrpgs is allowing the dm to add on the fly modifiers to the stealth and search rolls. Ive yet to see any system cover it well, and the best always provide guidance then let the dm set dcs as needed. 1v1 around tree? +5 search bonus. Can decide whether its appropriate to modify the stealth roll or the search roll on the fly. Make sure its actually possible to sneak up and stab someone and youre mostly there. We already run similar to one dnd where after hiding youre invisible until you do something. Can still be detected, and also i run see invisible as a bonus to find stealthing creatures. Its worked and been intuitive for veteran and new players alike. I just assume at this point that any stealth rules will need modification, probably best for the design to assume that too. The friendly invis issue also is hilarious and needs to be fixed.

In DnD one hiding only gives you "invisible" condition and anyone can target you unless it is about sight. Also if you in darkness you can't hide if enemy monster has dark vision because you will be in their line of sight. Invisible enemies's sight doesn't count anymore but they can still see you if their passive perception is more than your stealth check or DM can make a search action immediately or he can make first attack to you with surprise and yes enemies can try to attack you even if you have invisible condition. It is just a condition which makes you undetectable by all eyes and gives you advantage on attack rolls. I am sure DM will use search action or passive perception 22 of Beholder with it's vision powers i am sure DM would see you as soon as you are in the line of the sight. Very easy think to do with Beholder.

Recently we had a train heist adventure broken up into several goals spread across different cars. In one passenger car we needed to look in each room and check out the passengers to identify spies. I came up with a simple explanation for us popping into each room - dinner had been served recently, we were asking for dessert orders. I laid this out and then one of our players immediately ignores it and starts knocking on the doors, shouting through the door to identify himself as train security and say he was checking that everyone inside was safe - a weird thing to ask, and also failing to accomplish the goal of seeing the people in the room. He starts going back and forth with the DM to try to justify why this wasn’t bizarre and suspicious, and I just interrupted to say “I’m sorry, I feel like I just proposed a completely workable plan and was roundly ignored. Was there a problem with my suggestion? Do we not want to do that for some reason?” Apparently the other player zoned out and didn’t hear my idea at all. He then went on to try to attack one of the patrolling guards for no reason whatsoever. Nice guy but sometimes he does my head in.

It should work like this: To hide, choose which creatures you want to hide from. You must be at least 3/4 concealed from all those creatures' senses. When you hide, roll a d20 and add your stealth proficiency modifier. This is the DC to find you for creatures that you hide from. If the DC is below the creature's passive perception, they automatically succeed. Creatures that you were only 3/4 concealed from have advantage on their roll. If another creature who you didn't successfully hide from communicates where you are to a creature, that creature can roll again with advantage. Creatures who fail this roll are completely unaware of your presence if they have not previously sensed you during this encounter. When you next enter that creature's senses, you have snuck up on the creature. Creatures that have previously sensed you during this encounter believe you are at the location you were when you hid and can't sense you until you move out of full cover (or move at all if you are in 3/4 cover). If you move from the location where the creature believes you are directly into the creature's senses, the creature automatically finds you. However, if you use full cover to move away from where you hid, and approach the creature from a different direction, you have snuck up on the creature. You have also snuck up on the creature if the creature first senses you in a location other than where the creature thought you were. For the round after you snuck up on a creature, you have advantage on attacks against that creature, and that creature has disadvantage on attacks against you.

i would hope for the official design team to offer a live video demonstration of a game in action, maybe 10 minutes, showing the rules for obscurement, cover, hiding, invisibility, and related issues

Here is how I handle hiding in 2014 dnd: - You can only hide from people who can't see you. - Unless you are hiding it is assumed that everyone knows where you are even if you aren't visible. Ao you can still be attacked, just at disadvantage. - When hidden, creatures you are hidden from don't know where you are, and can't attack you. However if you hid in an obvious place, they can jsut move somewhere where they are able to see you, and you're no logner hidden to them. So you don't need an active perception check to find someone who is hidden, unless they are using more than jsut cover you cn walk around to hide. Regarding attacking from hidden: - In orderfor you to seethe enemy, butthem not see you, you'd need to be using something other then full cover to hide. E.g. devil sight + darkness, invisibility, or a feature that lets you hide while lightly obscured, or to be in darkness (not the darkness spell, but just not in an area of light.. that's a while different debate but I treat darkness that isn't from the spell as transparent.) while the enemy is in light.. or you're both i ndarkness but one has darkvision and another doesnt.. okay there are loads of ways to achieve this. - However popping oufrom full cover and attacking I would allow the attack to be made at advantage only onthe condition that the attack is being made as a reaction th moment the attacker pops out. This ensuresthatthe attack is swift enough to catchthe enemy off guard.. hiding around a corner and attackign as soon asthe enemy coms into range for example, or poppingup and shooting immediately.. but coming out of hiding andrunnign up to the enemy and then attacking is a no go. These rules makethe most sense to me, and I don't really see contradictions to the 2014 RAW. The new one dnd rules seem utterly silly though. If you need to not be seen to hide, then you are already not visible.. so why wouldyou bother hiding to gain "invisibility"?

Fixing hide requires them to put a page in the book that makes the following points: - Determining line of sight - how to hide - how to Stalk - surprise attack (for non-rogues) This is pretty easy but here is the way it works (and I know this is a wall of text no one will read but what the hell - this was so important it is in almost very fantasy book !) Determining line of sight Line of sight is the place were creatures can see a possible target. There are two status where this happens - Standard and Alert. - Standard happen in normal behavior of creatures. This means you can be seen in the front 180 degrees of most humanoid and animal creature. If they are standing that is determined by the last step of travel. If seated then it is facing out from the back of the chair or seated character. Anyone crossing into this area is automatically seen. - Alert When a creature is alert then they can see anything but the area directly behind themselves. This happens whe a creature is fighting or on guard. (Note Guards are not always “on guard” often the are dozing or resting so usually they are put I post expecting to see what is in front of them) Hide. To hide you must choose to hide from a target(s) or in general. When hiding from a target(s) you must get 3/4 or better cover between. You and the target(s). If you have full cover you can’t be attacked or seen but if you have 3/4 then you can be attacked at disadvantage unless you hide using your Stealth skill. If you are seen by a targeting. Creature they can attack you with disadvantage or target you in general. Areas of dim count as 3/4 cover as standard. Areas of Darkness count as full cover. - if you are trying to generally hide then you must have as much cover as possible using a stealth roll to determine how good you did vs Perception or Investigation of a searcher. Stalking Once you have hidden from a target, you can move away or towards them. If you are not in the line of sight of the target or there is cover (3/4 or full) this is done at advantage. The DC is target’s Wisdom-Perception. Surprise If you are not seen by the target and you can attack them, you may get a surprise attack. Surprise attacks are at advantage and consist of one of these actions - Stalking to within 15’ of the target and still having movement enough to get to melee with the target - Attacking the target the first time from cover where the target can’t get line of sight from you using a silent attack - Grappling/attacking a target that has passed within 15’ of you as a reaction as long as you can cover that 15’. Elements of detection You may not be able stalk Or Stealth from a target based on the following: - target detects you if they can see a greater range of sight based on the artwork or type of creature (360degree for beholder or a Warlock seeing you in Shadow with Witchsight) - Tremor sense when you are walking on the ground. - enhanced hearing - Strong scents or smell ability - Any awake creature with Mythic or Legendary actions It is possible to bypass these abilities but it requires magic or additional means. This is a first pass but you can see what I am going for.

I think the "any visible creature" means if there are multiple creatures none can see you. So hiding from Bob while Ted can see you does nothing

I think. Wood elves have Camo clothes that let them hide in bushes and rocks, I think gloom stalkers wear dark clothing that lets them hide in shadows. I think that a regular person can hide behind stuff, and whenever you move out of cover is 'the best time' in the 6 second window of your turn to try to sneak past the person. Maybe they took a long yawn or something. I definitely think half movement should apply.

I had mentioned to multiple people that the rules regarding invisible creatures and stealth use and situations were odd in many contexts. Glad to hear some agreement.

As another person said, hiding is more about someone losing track of exactly where you are and their attempt to perceive you. That means I allow players to be "effectively hidden" depending on the scenario. For example, I have being invisible as a sort of pseudo-hidden condition. While you're invisible enemies can't detect you by sight unless they see you when you attack- but even then they know where the attack came from but they still can't see the person who shot it (if the invisibility doesn't instantly end I mean). Normally to make stealth rolls you need to take the Hide action, but because Hiding requires you to use half your movement because moving too quickly will reveal your location I allow players who are invisible to make stealth rolls if they move at half their movement speed because they are already unable to be sensed by being seen. Using the same reasoning, if they move more than half their movespeed then they're still invisible, but enemies don't "guess" their swings and automatically miss- they can hear you and make attack rolls as normal, they're just at disadvantage because being unable to see the target even if you know they're there means they have the advantage in defending themselves . . .when you rely on sight to hit (and visa versa is also true for players attacking enemies). I had to clamp down on my one of my players who likes to rule lawyer and made these kind of rules in part because things like the Invisible condition said specifically attacks have disadvantage against the creature as opposed to "a creature that is relying on eyesight to hit you". I tried to make the argument that you cannot gain the benefits from invisibility from a creature that has tremorsense or blindsight because they explicitly are not eyesight- they are other senses. Invisibility clearly should only effect enemies you are trying to hit using eyesight. Speaking of badly dictated features and rules in 5E and D&D in general, what in the heck is blindsight? I realized watching this video that I THINK its supposed to be echolocation or in other words extremely acute hearing, but its funny because they created a generalized "sense" that is even ambiguous to what it is, and yet they have specific types of vision and even tremor sense. A lot of the issues with the way Hide and Hidden and Stealth and Surprise work is that all the different knobs and levers that apply to the system are just not detailed correctly, coherently or consistently. You touched on this as well- but I respectfully disagree that the DM needs to even intervene with custom rulings although mentioning it isn't a minus- the problem is that how Hiding works should all be listed on the same page with several tables that gives a DM at least a framework for how different aspects of stealth can affect one's ability to be perceived and by what. 99%+ of hiding interactions could be rendered a super simple flow chart if they just had a cohesive table for things like possible senses and what effects generally do and don't affect them. Some possible ideas for tables: - Table for lighting conditions - Table for obscurement conditions - Table for perciever's awareness condition - Table for which senses can bypass different effects - Tables for similiar modifiers to lighting that are sense dependent (e.g. ambient sound conditions for checks based on hearing) - Tables for degrees of senses (e.g. Humans can hear, smell, taste and touch, but we rely mostly on eyesight to get into a fight with another creature, so while humans can perceive something with their hearing that doesn't amount to blindsight) The best part being that the design doesn't require that all these factors need to actually come into play at the same time as a requirement- instead they could serve as that flowchart I spoke of where a DM can decide for themselves what they think does and doesn't factor into a specific stealth check and, if they have access to the characters sheet as they should, they don't even need to ask of anything of the player themselves. They can have a nice tidy copy of said stealth modifier tables attached on your DM screen or notes or what have you and take a peek at the characters senses and listen to how they intend to stealth and make the determination without needing to take the player out of the experience at all.

The rules I use in my campaign: Player must first break line of sight from enemies they intend to strike/hide from. Player must then roll a contested stealth vs perception roll. Player is unaware of result. Player must then move at least 10ft away from there current position, while remaining unseen/detected (IE they can't make noise, make attacks etc). Player is then "hidden" to their intended target(s) until the start of their next turn (or are discovered). Player makes their first attack with advantage, they are then revealed (but mine has skulker so a miss doesn't reveal them). This way a player can "hide" from enemy A but not enemy B. If the enemies are smart, I let both enemy B and A spend their reactions to give a callout ("duck!" or "he's firing at you") provided enemy B beat the players contested stealth roll. This allows smart enemies to warn each other, but at the rather heavy cost of 2 reactions, negating the hidden condition. This hasn't come up due to the campaign setting I am running (lots of mindless beasts), but this feels the most suitable in my brain. It might not work for all groups, but it gives me to least amount of cognitive dissonance so I use it.

I think this is part of why I'm so warry of being a player in 5e... I have all these understandings and house-rules for how to make the nonsensical 5e rules *function*... and don't necessarily trust that every other DM will too...

Tree, one aspect you missed. Being Hidden does not just extend to being Unseen, it extends to not being heard. In 5E, you are not Hidden just because you're behind Total Cover or Invisible. If you don't take the Hide action in tandem with total cover, you don't gain the effects. Hide includes muffling your sound. Leathers creak, boots stomp, etc. Total Cover and Invisibility does nothing regarding sound you create.

@SageGenesis

10 ай бұрын

By the new UA version of Hide though, it just renders you Invisible. Nothing about it reduces your noise. In fact, it's the opposite: making noise louder than a whisper or verbal components breaks the benefits of Hide. So... are your footsteps louder than a whisper? Who knows! The Hide check sure as hell doesn't make you silent, so maybe? Depending on what the DM says it might be impossible to sustain Hiding while taking any form of movement.

@fortunatus1

10 ай бұрын

@@SageGenesis I agree with Tree on this. It needs a rework. Hide in 5.5 makes no sense.

If a druid can wear metal armor then you can attempt to hide when lightly obscured.

the rules definitely need to address range of vision and who sees who first. for example in a casual situation the creature with the higher passive perception becomes aware of the other creature first etc. clearly defining a distinction between awareness or having an unaware condition would be helpful.

This video is so satisfying. You articulate *all* the problems with stealth so well. I can't tell you how many players or DMs have said stealth mechanics are fine and I'm being pedantic. It's such a mess I don't play rogues or stealth characters anymore because I simply don't want the headache.

Going to give this a shot. Condition: Unobtrusive A character or object that has been hidden is unobtrusive. An unobtrusive object or character can technically be perceived as normal, but is not noticed and cannot be acknowledged, specifically targeted or interacted with by a character unless it draws attention to itself. If an unobtrusive being does anything other than moving, it loses the Unobtrusive condition. Hiding an object or character is an Action. The result of the Deceive or Stealth check used to hide the target becomes the DC of any skill check to perceive the object or character, such as Investigation or Perception. A creature that can see something at the moment it becomes unobtrusive automatically succeeds at any attempt to perceive that thing.

There are 3 issues, obscurment, hiding and surprise. Here's my solution. Obscurment should be entirely replaced by cover. Cover needs to say when you can't see a creature behind it not just whether you can target them. This could mean total and three quarters cover can't be seen, or maybe three quarters cover you can choose whether you can or can't see, or maybe dm decides. Basically I think cover makes more sense than obscurment does, and half cover is light obscurment and either total or three quarters cover is heavy obscurment. Hiding should be a two part thing, the hiding and the finding. For hiding, you take the action and make the stealth check vs each creatures passive perception and to be used as the finding dc. You can do so in total and three quarters cover, half cover with a feature that allows it (like skulker). Cover is already directional, so I feel like that works. If your stealth check is lower than a creatures passive perception you have been found. You can also signal to any creatures you can see who automatically find you. You become invisible, but you don't gain those benefits of this condition to creatures who have found you. When a creatures perception check beats your stealth dc they can choose to reveal you to any other creatures that can hear them, or possibly see them. There should be a rule that specifies how far creatures can see and hear normally too btw, like 5 times your wisdom score in feet or something for hearing range. You can use the action again to refresh the check for all creatures, this probably needs to be said so people know they can try to repeat the hide attempt from people that found them. To find a hidden creature other than winning the initial contest a creature can obviously the search action should let them try to discover you, maybe by seeing your boot round a corner or something. Other than that though there should be circumstances in which reaction perception check a creature can take vs the hide dc when you end a turn in an area that isn't behind any form of cover to a creature or If you make an attack against the creature or cast a spell that affects that creature or make an audible noise that creature can hear that allows that creature to find you. You could argue this is mechanically too strong, in which case making attacks or spells that affect a creature automatically lets that creature find you, though to me that doesn't fully make sense. I feel like if you get attacked out of nowhere you don't automatically see your attacker, even in the case of a melee attack you could still stay behind them or dodge behind some nearby cover. For surprise I think the easiest solution there is to make a group stealth check contested by passive perceptions, entirely separate from the hiding rules. You then determine whether creatures get the surprised condition by if you get more passes that fails versus each creatures passive perception, and each creature that didn't win on passive perception is surprised. I do think for some of this you have to come up with a narrative reasoning for why it does or doesn't work, but I think these mechanics are generally how people want it to work. There are other ways to go about this, but in any case it's clear what steps we want to be embodied by the mechanics. We attempt to hide, making a stealth check while we are in an area were we could feasibly break line of sight with other creatures. We want to be able to reveal ourselves to allies, but also want enemies to be able to reveal us to their allies if we are found. We want there to be some test that removes our hidden status, a perception check when we would reasonably be seen. To elaborate on when we are reasonably seen, it has to be when we attack or cast a spell since those are the mechanical advantage of the hide action, or if we do something that makes us obviously detectable such as making a loud sound or moving to a place we can't reasonably be out of sight in. Let me know if there's anything I missed, but I feel like with my proposed mechanics you clear up obscurment, get the ability to hide and gain the invisible conditions benefits, allow your allies to be excluded, allow multiple opportunities for multiple enemies to see you but keep an action economy cost so it doesn't cause a check every time you move 5ft, allows enemies to inform their allies and makes surprise separate while making sense.

I think the rules could be altered for the hide condition to make sense. You choose all you are hiding from or are not hiding from. (You can choose to stop hiding from someone on your turn and your invisibility condition doesnt apply to them) The condition ends immediately after you call attention to yourself, such as with any of the following occurances: making an attack roll... So, opening the door they are focused on is pretty obviously calling attention to yourself, or if you knock over a vase or something.

The condition bit is clunky, you could make the condition "hidden from ". If you include "line of sight", facing is also going to have to be a thing. How I think it should work? You can take the hide action. You make a stealth check DC 1 (you can fail only on a 1 basically). This becomes the DC for any search checks against you. (I like this, it reduces rolls and eliminates the need for passive perception). You get the hidden condition for every creature you're heavily obscured from or if can draw a line between you and that creature over total or 3/4 cover (I assume the latter is intended to be something that wouldn't cover you standing but could easily crouch and thus hide behind). You lose all hidden conditions for all the same reasons as in One DnD except "if an enemy sees you", and if a creature that you aren't hidden from alerts others of your location (maybe make this require an action of some sort). You lose the hidden condition for a particular creature if it uses a search action and successfully passes the check. A creature can use a search action as a reaction if you are hidden from it and end a move within X (I'm thinking 30 with maybe with advantage if it's even closer) feet of a it without meeting the conditions of becoming hidden from it, or if you move more than half your speed in a turn. Then the skulker feet can let you hide in light obscurement and half cover, and maybe ignore the half speed trigger (or give disadvantage on those, or all, triggered checks).

Always I thought, Stealth vs Passive or Actiion:Perception of a Target(s) of choice. Similar to the Help Action. There are two different targets for different effects. For an Attack, the target is an enemy within 5ft of you for a teammate's next attack. The other is an ability check, the target is the teammate within 5ft of you.

I think a "hide action" is a weird way to go about hiding // stealth. For me, it's more intuitive that stealth is an action modifier, if that makes sense - it's not that I'm hiding and then I'm hidden and do stuff stealthily, it's "just" that I want to do stuff stealthily. For example, if I'm a rogue and want to sneak up to a target to backstab it, the primary thing I need to do is to approach the target stealthily. The difficulty of that would depend on the details of where I start and where the target stands etc. In that way, it does make sense to require me to be heavily obscured or behind full cover, but only in regards to my target, everyone else is secondary (unless I also want to stay unnoticed by others to mitigate others alerting the target or something, then it of course makes sense to also require me do be heavily obscured or behind full cover in regards to them. The friendly mage Johnny that wont rat me out does not matter.) So, ruling-wise, I'd suggest something like "In order to do something stealthily, you need relevant creatures to be sufficiently unaware of your current doings, at the DMs discretion. Roll a Dexterity (Stealth) check and do whatever you want to do. You remain hidden to a creature until they succeed on a Wisdom (Perception) check against your previous Stealth check to find you, until whatever you are doing is sufficiently noticeable considering the creatures Passive Perception, at the DMs discretion, or until they are alerted of your doings through other sufficient means, at the DMs discretion." Also, fun fact: the playtest ruling states "With the Hide Action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so stealthily (...)", implying that there is a way to hide non-stealthily.

The language about avoiding line of sight for all _visible_ enemies is tricky. Without that wording, the presence of an invisible creature would prevent the hide check and the players would know something was there.

For the guard watching, stealth roll is simulating all possible trickery and circumstances that might let you go undetected. Flavor wise it can be a distraction, the guard falling asleep, or in the case of 30 stealth, the god like abilities of the rogue. However in case like you describe, you would simply say the guard is actively searching, (so not passive) and give him situational bonuses to perception or advantage. Thats already a reccomended rule for any skill check. And if the rogue beats that, its because he is lucky, or a master of misdirectiom/speed. This is not different than a monk dodging a fireball while staying in place. many rolls in dnd determine the outcome, and the how is up to the GM or player to flavor, explain or hand wave the reason they say visible enemies, is so that you don't have weird interactions where stealth inexplicably fails for all monsters, because things the player can't see that might be enemies prevent it. friends can't see you, its could go either way, but they could say you can make any number of creatures you can see aware of you as a free action. Or they can decide that when you start trying to be unseen, even friends lose track of you. Remember in dnd, your position is like an atom's position. Its kind of there usually, but sometimes its not. It represents, in this 6 second time frame, he was mostly around there. But if the dice say they avoided a fireball, they dodge at the last second and returned. So the wizard was right behind him.... and then he lost track of him. The 30 stealth rogue dashes during eye blinks and when the guard looks at his nails.

Wizards please just hire this man.

"If you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you." I am guessing that this line is trying to say something like "If you are in 3/4 cover ask your DM if the creatures is looking in your direction to determine the 'Line of Site' part" even though there aren't any other rules about looking in a direction.

Yeah, I was incredibly confused by the PHB. As someone who comes to DnD from tabletop games, I can confirm that the rules are absolute mess. Eventually I pieced together this interpretation of the 5E rules: 1. Hiding means that the creatures you are hiding from do not know where you are. 2. You can hide when you are highly obscured or covered (3/4 cover or 1/2 cover may work, if you duck or lie down, obtaining full cover). 3. To hide in a non-combat situation, you just say you are hiding (becouse rolling against specific number is really dumb, especially when there are no enemies - what is stopping me to roll again?). When you encounter the enemies, then you roll on stealth against their passive perception (or active if they are looking for you). Alternatively you can roll before and keep the number. Neither is ideal since when they roll first they can act accordingly. When players roll when encountering enemies, this will tell them that there is someone there against whom they are rolling. The solution might be that the DM will secretly roll for the players at the start of the hiding. 4. Not using line of sight in combat, creatures are in general awear of their suroundings. If the combat did not start yet and the creatures are not actively looking, then we can roleplay the line of sight. 5. When hidden in combat you can pop out of your cover (to partial cover) and shoot without losing the hidden condition (and losing it after the attack). You can also move (e.g. to do melee sneak attack) while staying hidden if you are lightly obscured or the enemy is somehow distracted. If the situation is like you described with the tree (does the creature know when you clearly can't be anywhere else?) then they can actively look for you.

I genuinely don’t think you can make hiding rules that are simple, in the way 5e likes to be, that don’t require handing a lot off to the DM. So yeah, I think the solution would be to clean up those new rules a touch, hand what needs to be handed over to the DM and give examples for the DM to use, as you said.

I find it funny that most people run stealth and hiding rules like “I know it when I see it”

I really think that’s the Beauty, of Baldurs Gate III. The Hide action more or less allows you to determine where you CAN go based on the line of sight that the enemy has. Also, the example being give is based on tokens and I think that is why using a miniature is helpful. You can see which way the miniature is facing and based on that you can ask your DM what line of sight they have and if sneaking around behind them is possible. I do agree that the RAW is just bad and needs clarified because it’s sloppy.

Hide: make a Stealth check. Anyone who was looking at you when you took the Hide action treats your Stealth check as a 0. If your hide check is above a creature's passive perception, that creature cannot see you or pinpoint your location unless you reveal it to them. Refer to Unseen Attackers section. As an action, a creature can take the Search action to find you. If their Search check beats your Stealth check and you're within 30 feet of them then you are revealed to that creature. Enemies with Blindsight, Tremorsense, or similar automatically know your location if their special sense would detect you. As a free action, a creature who discovers you and is able to speak or otherwise alert others to your presence can do so, at which point you are no longer hidden from those creatures. You are no longer hidden if you cast a spell with a verbal component, make a noise louder than a whisper, make an attack, enter an area of bright light, or otherwise do something that would give away your location as determined by the DM.

Only way to solve it: magic item. Box of Hiding (medium sized common magic item) As an action, you can get into the Box of Hiding. While in the box, you are hidden. You can move while in the Box of Hiding, but cannot Dash or take any attack actions, otherwise you are no longer hidden. You remain hidden as long as no one sees you move while in the Box, or they come within 10’ of the Box. Any contact with water destroys the Box of Hiding.

I think that simply should be defined better what "Hiding" means: Does it mean that enemies are unaware of your precise location or that are unaware of your presence? I think that both RAW and RAI what "hiding" means is making enemies not aware of your location, because the "Surprise" turn already covers the second case. In fact the enemy can be aware of your presence but you could still find the way to sneak at his back and stab him. The controversy about someone who knows you are behind the tree, but still you are successfully hided by him I think is easy to resolve and here is why: We are playing dnd, so we have a set of rules that permise us to "role play" and simulate in theory every occurrence might present; in this particular case I think that simply the creature will act accordingly to what is happened, so if you stabbed it and then you went behind a tree and hide, the creature will take attention to that location where you hided and could do multiple things like taking the "Dodge" action, moving behind the tree trying to follow you, prepare an attack action for the moment you come outside the tree, run away or could try to hide itself. Really simple. For what concern the "melee sneak attack" from hided I think the RAW is that you must be hided in the moment you attack, so ranged attacks are favorable, otherwise you must move at half your speed maintaining the prerequisites for hiding and stab the enemy melee (and here is where features like the Wood elf's one take place, because this permise you to go sneak melee not only while you are on an heavily obscured area/behind cover but even in an lightly obscured area).