Thank you Joe! It blows my mind that people fall for the heavy arrow ju ju. I've been hunting over 30yrs and anybody else who has, remembers we all shot heavy arrows and cut on contact broadheads....and the struggles we had with deer jumping the string and none existent bloodtrails! My success rate went thru the roof with a 430gr arrow tip'd with a Rage and now a Mega Meat!

@JoeMilesMWT

4 ай бұрын

100%!!

The heavy arrow guys seem to be way more passionate defending their setup than the lighter or moderate weighted shooters, no matter what you use to test penetration they will argue it’s not a deer. Like there is something magical about hide and bone that will stop a light arrow in its tracks yet allow a heavy one to pass. Luckily it’s still somewhat of a free country and we can shoot whatever weight arrow that gives us that warm fuzzy feeling. To me the thought of shooting the heaviest arrow that has acceptable trajectory is probably best overall. Anyway, enjoyed the video and good luck to all the hunters out there.

@talisikid1618

2 ай бұрын

Actually that’s it. Hide and bone do indeed deflect light arrows. Heavier is better.

Two known principles of physics: A) momentum = mass * velocity. And the poundage (or force of acceleration) of the bow is what determines momentum, not the weight of an arrow; B) friction is also affected by velocity: as velocity increases, friction decreases. Therefore, everything else being equal, the same bow shooting a lighter arrow will result in greater penetration into any target. Of course, the ballistics are a function of velocity: the faster a projectile, the flatter the trajectory over a given distance. So the rule should be: the lightest arrow that can withstand a bow's power stroke will be best for hunting. Excellent video, by the way!

@Bartimusblue27

5 ай бұрын

Wow... you need to do some reading and delete this because your entire concept of how this works is entirely wrong. Please do educate yourself, Your comment is comically bad.

@paulkysar6207

4 ай бұрын

I think you're confused, the faster something goes the heavier it gets based on drag. This is precisely why physical objects cannot travel faster than the speed of light.

@talisikid1618

2 ай бұрын

Actually,no. Doesn’t pan out that way. Lighter arrows are too easily selected from their path.

I shot a buck last year with a 450 grain TAW setup, 13% FOC, tipped with a rage trypan, pulling 68# at 28.5" draw. The shot was at a steep downward angle. My arrow impact was high angling down into the chest cavity. At entry my broadhead cut the top right of the buck's scapula completely off and came out the bottom of his chest on the opposite side. He went 70 yards. That's all I needed to see.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Facts!!

Remember, the difference between what they are calling “heavy” and light , is less than one half of an ounce. Personally, ill take the faster arrow because it is going to be easier to pin gap when hunting. There may be situations where weight would be more important than speed, but not for most. This is just my opinion

A engineer can build you a million dollar light bulb and wouldn’t have a clue how to screw it in 😂. 450gr vap ss and vap Elite 298 fps is my happy place. Blew threw a oryx at 63 yards like nothing. Double lung. Went through a deer like a hot knife through butter

The Ranch Fairy fan boys will not like your results.

@PubliclandhunterBigCountry

2 жыл бұрын

Too many variables here. Just a heavy arrow doesn't mean better penetration. Arrow diameter Arrow wey without broadhead Obviously sharp broadheads And he's not at 19% FOC. He has heavy arrow shaft. Not a heavier arrowsetup with highfoc. Big difference.

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

@@PubliclandhunterBigCountry kzread.info/dash/bejne/eKiLx6qOk8vdlag.html check out what I found in what I think is a great test.

@bowhunter4893

Жыл бұрын

@@PubliclandhunterBigCountry Lol. Ok ! He just proved to you it doesn’t matter about the total weight of a arrow. If it shot through the same bow there isn’t going to be any difference. Its not rocket science. If you wanna shoot a fence post as a shaft go ahead no one is stopping you but your not going to penetrate farther….

@bigz5262

Жыл бұрын

@@bowhunter4893 actually there is a difference. The bow is not tuned to each arrow they are going to shoot differently even if he says they are. He didn’t shoot them through paper to check it. His tuned light arrow vs the heavy one that’s not tuned is not a fair test

@gsnicholas8522

Жыл бұрын

The results are irrelevant unless you plan on hunting a cardboard box.

Just found you channel, really good stuff. I shoot about 465 gr, and I'm on the heavy side for this area. Ranch Fairy is typically loved or hated, but I think he has done a service to the bow hunting world just by making people aware of things and getting people to tune their bows, and not count on a "2.5" cutting Monster Slayer" be magical. As you probably know, he shoots a lot of pigs and he says "thinks change once and animal starts moving." I enjoy most of his videos, but don't shoot super heavy arrows. I think we need more people shooting hogs and recording & sharing their findings. :-) Really liked this test! Keep it up and don't let the "interweb experts" bring you down to their level. My Best, Dozier

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Thank you!

I would like to see one these comparison tests done not only at a short distance like this but also extended out to 30m or 50m or even more.

@charleslefebvre5515

Жыл бұрын

That's a fair point.

@WhiteButSlow

11 ай бұрын

Too much weight up front….

After building 650gr arrows for an elk season I am back down to 425gr TAW @ 285fps out of my 72# prime CT5. They are so much more forgiving at unknown distances and fly great. It almost feels like we are being gaslighted by the heavy arrow crowd, but the have “science” on their side that is hard to argue with. It’s great to see a little backyard science to combat it.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

100%……we are doing another science test in 450 vs 650 next week on penetration and trajectory and speed that should be pretty interesting.

@CarolinaNocked

Жыл бұрын

I’m an archery newb but it makes total sense to me. Also, the longer the shot the flatter trajectory you will get with a faster arrow

I'm pretty new to archery, brilliant video lots of info and in the comments too. I see I've got lots to learn, thanks for taking the time and sharing...

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

When I first switched to carbon I killed a pile of deer with a 360-385 grain arrow, im currently running a 425 grain arrow with zero issues. At the end of the day shoot what you want to shoot but ive been hunting long enough to know it doesn't take a 600 grain arrow to kill a mature whitetail. Love the video

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Yes sir….425 is a great weight!

Mass X Velocity. Velocity is part of the equation. There’s a ton of great information in the Ashby report, arrow integrity, blade angle etc. There’s a lot to be said about weight FOC, but stacking up weight has a point of diminishing returns. I shoot 490 gr arrows, fixed blade, never had trouble on whitetail deer.

The last couple of years have shown us only one conclusive thing, that people will not take responsibility for where they put their arrow or the shots they choose to take! IF, you shoot a 450+ grain hunting arrow with any modern broadhead into the lungs and heart area of any whitetail deer, WITHOUT hitting the scapula, that deer will die. Thank you for this test! Good luck to you all this season!!

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you Allen.

@bigbreakfast1972

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT just curious if you have done any broadhead noise testing with different heads?

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

@@bigbreakfast1972 yes mechanicals Vs fixed blades but not a ton of it

What an awesome test! Very enlightening. What I always have suspected and have always gone for a blend between keeping velocity and arrow weight. Have seen no issues shotting though shoulder bones and spine with large animals. Thank you!

Thanks for the comparison! I shoot a arrow of 390gr total weight and have no problems with pass throughs . Wished you had tried a “super light” in the comparison just to see if it makes a difference but it probably won’t.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Thank you….yeah we will do a lighter arrow as well

@michaelgmcauliffe

Жыл бұрын

I am with you on your setup!! i shoot a 400 grain arrow with a 100 grain [muzzy mx3] broadhead equals dead deer !! the faster that arrow hits that deer the better period!!

“3. Arrow’s Forward of Center (FOC) balance point: With higher FOC percentages: Penetration is increased, accuracy is enhanced, flight is more consistent, and wind-drift is minimized. The first threshold for a substantial increase in penetration is 19% FOC. The higher the FOC the higher the increase of benefit in all these areas.” I’d love to see this test with a higher FOC and a scapula in front of the cardboard. Keep up the great work! Loving the content brother!

@blakebaxley7313

2 жыл бұрын

Check out why THP made the switch: kzread.info/dash/bejne/gWVlx5aQo9nJobQ.html&feature=share Great breakdown

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Appreciate it! So you are willing to give up 27% trajectory in the woods to gain 3% KE hunting jumpy whitetail deer? Man there is zero chance I would….the Ashby report is scientifically and practically dead wrong when it comes to modern compound bows and hunting. I think there is some real good info you can gain from Ashby if you are shooting a recurve….I would be much more inclined to test out his results if I shot a recurve.

@blakebaxley7313

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT For whitetail deer entered into the P&Y record book, average shot distance is about 19 yards. Less than five percent of record book whitetails are shot beyond 40 yards.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

@@blakebaxley7313 so you are willing to give up the trajectory? 6” trajectory difference at 20 yards is Huge when shooting over and under limbs in the woods…..no way I am willing to give that up….460 will blow through scapulas and shoot flatter…..tell you what…bring your heavy setups by the office and we will run the same test as 20, 40, and 60 yards…penetration, accuracy, and trajectory….I’ll change over tomorrow if I can see any benefits what’s so ever to extreme FOC and heavy.

@blakebaxley7313

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT Love it! I’m not seeing that significant of trajectory loss - tinkering with 25%+ FOC: 520, 570, 600 and 620. Believe the FOC plays a major roll. I’ll call you in a few. Can’t wait to see ya brother! Let’s get one of your crazy training sessions in post test 💪

The bottom line is the 10% of hunters that constantly kill 90% of the big game animals shoot 430 grains on the extreme light end too 510 grains on the heavy end. Shot placement is king and is truly what kills.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

I like that…good feedback

Aside from any possible lift imparted by the shaft and vanes, this is all easy to compute. Lighter arrow will travel faster. Therefore the trajectory will be flatter. Heavier arrow shot on the same line will take longer to reach the target, and therefore, falling at the gravitational rate of 9.8 meters per second every second, will hit lower. Depending on how much more efficiently it uses the energy of the bow, it might penetrate deeper due to higher momentum - which is simply mass times velocity.

Thanks man. Appreciate the work you have done. This whole issue has gotten so out of hand. I appreciate your attempt to make the comparison as fair as possible. I do think there is a lack of discussion on the trajectory issue, as well as deer movement at the sound of the string. Great work.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Thank you! Filming one tomorrow for this exact thing…speed at distance and trajectory

@wvgk2829

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT thanks man. trajectory, pin gap for misjudged distances, and time for the arrow to get to the animal are all factors that to me are very important. And if we assume even nearly equal penetration, then I am not sure why there would be an argument. If you were condoning shooting like a 350 grain arrow out of a 70 lb bow then I am guessing there may be some argument to not having enough mass, but anything around 450 - 460, I think has plenty of mass to penetrate as well as a heavier arrow shot out of the same bow. Anyway, I know you are going to catch hell for trying to be up front but I appreciate your efforts...

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

@@wvgk2829 thanks man…o yeah it is amazing the opinions out there and all good I am just trying to test and find the best all around arrow set up for hunting whitetail.

Them victory arrows penetrate awesome. Hands down the best arrow I've ever shot. They hit hard!!!

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

I do really like them

This debate aggravates the hell out of me. I heard someone say use a heavy arrow and don’t shoot past 30 yards! If that works for you don’t knock the guys using light arrows shooting farther!

Good test!

What are the specs on your lighter arrow? Looking to build an arrow for a 75# bow. 29” draw and will use 125 gr heads. Would like 12-14% FOC and stay around 475-485 in total arrow weight. Seems like RIP TKO’s in .250 spine may work for me?

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

That is this exact arrow but only 100 grain head up front (and 60 grain insert)….out of 74 pound bow 29” Draw…..TAW 460 flying at 297 FPS.

Your legit love the vids

No real harm done as I jumped on the heavy arrow bandwagon a couple years ago…but I’m going back to my more traditional setup regarding heavier arrow weight/higher FOC. I need my arrow fast…these SC deer are super jumpy. I had a high percentage of total pass throughs in years past without heavy FOC. Thanks for video.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Yes sir 100% agree with you the more and more I test this stuff the more and more I see heavy/high FOC has very little difference in penetration and you give up far to much in trajectory and speed

Good video. I shoot a light arrow at 315 fps with a moderate size broadhead and blow through whitetails with ease. It breaks ribs with ease and I broke both shoulders on a mature buck with it. I've been bow hunting for 50 years and I've shot slow bows, fast bows, heavy arrows and light arrows. The setup I have now is the best set-up I've ever had for whitetails.

@PBAdventures146

Жыл бұрын

What are you shooting for broadheads? Type and weight?

@brokenarrow6491

Жыл бұрын

@@PBAdventures146 I shoot 100 grain swhacker 1.75" broadheads. They have a thicker Ferrell then the 2" ones. These heads are not perfect like any broadhead but I have had great luck with them. Even if something happened and they didn't open you still get a 1" cut. They have opened every time for me but if for some reason they didn't they will still work. That's why I use them. I'm big on tuning my bow but they also fly really well. I shot a doe the other day and I broke her leg at the joint on the exit side and the arrow went all the way through. Good luck

The results from dr Ashby was done at a time when Longbow and recurves were tops. Fast forward decades compound tech is totally different. Speeds exceed 300 fps. You can not shoot a hunting bow trad gear past 200 fps 190 180 fps at best. The point is if you keep the fps at 180 shoot a 40 lb at 400 gr. Then shoot 550 gr at 180 fps. from 55 lb longbow or recurve. There is a big difference in penetration. The speed between both bows 40 and 50 lb is the same one of the reasons is because you can’t shoot very light arrows like compound through a trad bow they have limits due to limb longevity, they will crack. Also trad bow design has also increased bows ,now shoot as fast as older bow 5 to 10 lbs heavier. The beauty of compounds is they make up in speed more speed more power. Trad bow cannot go any faster only thing is build heavier arrows basically shoot at the same speed. I have some trad bows I have a recurve carbon limbs 42 lb shoots as fast a 50 lb old recurve I am talking about 500 grain arrow . Also compounds back then were no where what a compound is today the tech is leaps and bounds, the trad bows also increased in power due to carbon and foam core and CAD design. I think we will live in great time with a lot cool stuff in all archery disciplines.

For better results just flatten the tip a bit on the light arrow it will make the arrow hit the animal harder and it will make more damage to the organs

My arrows are coming in at 443gr this year shooting 285 fps. I’m enjoying this change for me. Last year shot 560gr and had a set of 597gr. My sight tape maxed out at 60 yards

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

When can I get my hands on some of those new Exodus arrows?? Can’t wait to shoot them

I wished I hadn’t watch this just as the rut is beginning. I shoot a heavy arrow, and now my confidence is shaken.

@VitalyMack

7 ай бұрын

Terminal ballistics are quite different from cardboard or gel penetration. Corrugated cardboard is about the worst medium that could have been chosen. The test should have been at least done on gel...and gel isn't as nearly as good as a fresh cadaver with fluids that haven't settled. Also, the only point that was sort of proven is that a light arrow at a short distance shot will be better shooting through thickets...but then it doesn't account of if a light arrow happens to hit a tiny branch versus a heavy arrow. When it comes to penetration momentum is the only accurate indicator. Also, what this test didn't show is the consistency of the flight arch. We have all shot 556 rounds and know how amazingly flat they shoot, but we also know that past a certain distance a 556 just drops like a it hits a brick wall.

That 467 arrow is pretty heavy itself

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

I’m actually wondering what is the lightest now we can go….that will be for next year

I was told to use a heavy broadhead when I first started bowhunting (150gr fred bears) 35 years ago to get penetration. I always liked the flatter flying arrows and I like your test. I thought penetration today was because of better broad heads.

I may be late to the party, but here is my take. If it was true that speed equals more penetration, we would see greater numbers of pass thu’s on deer sized game than we did 10-20 years ago. The aluminum guys shooting 300 gps ibo bows and 600 grains would not have been passing thru and the 350 ibo shooting 400 grains would be blowing through. But that’s not the case. Watch modern hunting videos and compare them to videos as far back as you can get. Ask the aluminum guys. Penetration didn’t become an issue until we started shooting lighter, faster, and with mechanicals. Your target medium does matter. Cardboard, gel, plywood, etc are not game animals and tissue. Example is your cardboard. How many inches of penetration did you get? Would you expect to get the same or less on a game animal? Or more? If the medium does a better job at stopping it than game, the results are not accurate to what you’d expect in the field. Here is an idea. Next time you go deer hunting, take a heavy arrow. After harvesting a deer or elk, shoot a light and heavy arrow into its shoulder. Either the bone or just the denser meat. See which one does best

Is there a noticeable change in trajectory from a 513 grain arrow to a 488 grain arrow past 40 yards? I’m debating on 100 vs 125 grain broadhead 29” draw 65 lbs

@JoeMilesMWT

11 ай бұрын

There wouldn’t be much at 40 yards

Interesting...I'm new to the archery scene and was wondering what is the correlation between the weight of the arrow and spine of the arrow? Thanks

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Lot to unpack there….if you google a “spine chart” for arrows there will be several charts you can read about and define it for you….has more to do with draw weight of the bow than arrow weight and making sure the spine is stiff enough to handle that force and then you have to look at point weight as you put more weight on the front of the arrow it weakens the spine so you might have to go to a stiffer spine if you add point weight….again lots to unpack there.

You didn’t sprinkle the fairy dust on the heavy arrow.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Hahahhaha

Love me some fast arrows!

Sooo here is what I experienced with the lighter vs heavy, this is my 1st year with a compound bow in the woods ,so I’m still a new be , Tn archery season open this Saturday but from practicing all spring and summer I started out with a Standard blackout brand 28inch 340 spine arrow with 125 grain Field point because that’s what I had for tips laying around , bow is at 70 lbs, it was like shoot a wet noodle through the air, never got a consistent grouping with that arrow, stepped up to gold tip velocity valkyrie 300 spine 28in with 100gr inserts and 125gr Field tip and and 15.8% foc now I can get a consistent grouping , just my 2 cents from my experience as a new bow hunter

I used to shoot 440 grain arrow 60lb 29.5 inch draw with mechanical and I blew through every deer I shot at. Now I’m shooting 450 grain arrow 73lbs 31 inch draw I’m not worried about Ashby reports

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Agree man….450 is the sweet spot!!

Yeah, cardboard is about the worst medium that could have been chosen. I would rather seen the arrows get shot through coke jugs. Also, the overall trajectory arch wasn't taken into consideration at all. I don't understand this debate in archery. Us gun guys know full well that light and fast gives you a good trajectory, but only to a certain point, then the bullets just drop. Very fast bullets are amazing at short distances but the low mass and momentum makes them terrible at long range shots. Physics doesn't change. Newtonian laws are consistent with all objects in motion! I did enjoy the video, it game me some interesting information, so thank you for your effort.

@JoeMilesMWT

7 ай бұрын

Why is Cardboard the worst? Yeah we aren’t shooting arrows at 100’s of yards like bullets…there have been test done on the lost momentum at archery hunting yardages it is extremely minimal

I’m not a heavy arrow guy my only question is are the arrows the same diameter ? I noticed when I went from 5mm fmjs to 4mm vap tkos the penetration on the vaps was significantly more, both arrows in the 400-450 grain area

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Yes the arrows were same diameter…..that is a really good point…smaller diameter arrows do penetrate better in out testing.

@CormierTC

2 жыл бұрын

Insert system looks different which could have some impact in performance. Likely marginal but yet another variable to consider.

I've never seen any Ashby report saying anything about 460 not being enough for deer the Ashby study is for the biggest of the big not deer but if it works on elephant it will blow through anything a whitetail has to offer

What bow are you shooting - looks cool 🤙

@JoeMilesMWT

11 ай бұрын

Mathews V3X

First, I have been on both ends of the weight spectrum with my arrows over the last couple of years. I am currently somewhere in the middle. My sons and I have done this same test on layered foam targets in the past and found exactly the same thing you did. I think that the point you made in several parts is that you are shooting at a consistent median. If you know anything about targets you know that, regardless of speed or mass, they are all designed to stop an arrow equally as fast. That is the goal of every target manufacturer. Like others have stated, I would like to see this test at longer distances(not the trajectory test...that is self explanatory). As far as an arrow hit true to target...to me, perfect arrow flight is key. Regardless of whether or not you hit at a more level arrow flight or not(most wont because they hunt from an elevated stand), if you have a perfect flight and, regardless of whether or not you have a mechanical or fixed blade broadhead, your penetration will be better. As for performance on deer (which I believe what this is all targeted too) I have shot deer with everything from a 400 TAW to a 650 TAW and fixed or mechanical broadheads. What I found is that, for the times when I hit anything like rib or heavier, the heavy arrow tends to penetrate better in deer. Not that a lighter arrow wont pass through. Over the years I have hit a few in the shoulder and though a 400 TAW might get through and get some penetration, a heavier arrow will do it better if you have a more solid pointed broadhead. Not saying not mechanical, just something with a harder point. Regardless of where you fall in weight, some of the things that have been pushed over the last few years are helpful. The biggest being better arrow flight. That lone will help everyone. IMO....have an extra 50-75g on an arrow will never impact my hunting/shooting because I know what my bow and myself are capable of. I know that I am getting older and my confident range are less than they used to be. I am a 30 yards and in guy. I practice out to 50 but only to make the closer shots easier.

Are they the same diameter shaft? I shoot those rip tko elites and find that they pass through some targets easier because of the small diameter and they have a slip coating. Unless they were both rip tkos its not a good side by side comparison.

People aint ready for this discussion

I think that FOC is more important than the total arrow weight. It'd be nice if we could build a 350 grain arrow with the 19% FOC to get the best of both worlds but I don't think they make durable enough arrows to make that happen

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

That would be interesting…..might try and see how light I can go with the highest FOC and shoot that against a 470-500 with 10-12 FOC and see the difference

@danielbutler8292

Жыл бұрын

I just built a 395 gr with 16% Foc.

@bradyhoglund5630

Жыл бұрын

@@danielbutler8292what arrow and components did you use?

@danielbutler8292

Жыл бұрын

@@bradyhoglund5630 victory v force 27" long with a 50gr brass insert and 100 gr broad head. victory nock and blazer vanes

Ballistics gel would be interesting test and i think would show a difference(maybe). Thing i always ask with the 500+ grain stuff, what are you hunting and what lb bow? Whitetail size animals are not that hard to go thru, pigs, moose buffalo, much different story. I do feel like the lower lbs bows get better penetration with heavier arrows though, but everything in moderation.

Kinetic energy increases on the square of the velocity. What matters is the kinetic energy of the arrow at the moment it hits the target. Over the short distances that bow hunters typically shoot, I would expect the lighter arrow to carry more kinetic energy all the way to target [under 50 metres] for most hunting shots.

450 gr all you need for any animal speed and pass through

As someone who believes that accuracy is king, and the rest is less important, I think that a hunter should use the setup he or she is confident in using and enjoys using, as long as it gets the job done. For the penetration test, I would consider using something that more mimics live tissue, with bones/muscle on the outsides and squishy stuff on the inside, and I might also consider using a few additional arrow weights. (maybe a high 300-400 grain total arrow weight arrow, a 400-500 arrow, 500-600, etc. arrow) I think it would also be interesting to see different total weights but more Similar FOC %'s for a test.

@bigz5262

Жыл бұрын

I’ve seen John Dudley get 5 inches of penetration on a mule deer at 12 yards. No offense but you are not John Dudley, you are going to miss

@coffeeoperatorx

Жыл бұрын

@@bigz5262 What exactly are you talking about? As far as the context goes I'm not sure if you meant to reply to my comment.

@bigz5262

Жыл бұрын

@@coffeeoperatorx sorry, I guess that was confusing, my bad. My point was that you said accuracy is king but even the best archers in the world miss, what do you do when you miss and hit a shoulder bone?

@coffeeoperatorx

Жыл бұрын

@@bigz5262 I used to run a lighter arrow, sub 400 grains. Now I shoot 530 grain arrows with 19% FOC. I am pretty picky with my shots and have harvested a bunch of wild pigs, plenty of deer, and one elk. I know I'm definitely not near the level of the professional bow hunters though, and I won't make (or take) the same shots as dudley, but I take it seriously and practice. I'm thinking about filming some hunts this year though. Does KZread even allow us to post the shots anymore?

@bigz5262

Жыл бұрын

@@coffeeoperatorx I think that’s perfect! Still decent enough trajectory. Mine are 549. It’s been a while since I’ve got anything with a bow, I lost a couple deer in a row so I took a few years off. I used to shoot whatever the bow shop gave me, never even heard of tuning. I was seriously unprepared. I think they do let you post but you might have to age restrict it or something. If you can get a pig you’ll have no issues with whitetail

Simple physics can explain why the lighter arrow has better penetration, assuming all else is equal besides their weight. You have two basic physical properties going on when you shoot an arrow and then hit a target: conservation of energy during travel and conservation of momentum at impact. Both arrows are expected to leave the bow with exactly the same momentum because each is propelled by the same force (the bowstring) and momentum is equally weighted between mass and velocity (P=mv). However, the lighter arrow has much more energy upon leaving the bowstring due to kinetic energy being more heavily weighted by velocity (k=1/2mv^2). So let's just say that the heavier arrow has an initial energy of 100 Joules (J) and the lighter arrow has an initial energy of 200 J (these are arbitrary values. I have no idea if they're anywhere close to the actual energy of a flying arrow). Conservation of energy (think Newton's first law) states that all of the kinetic energy of the arrow will either be maintained or lost to friction/air resistance. However, if the arrows each have the same ballistic coefficient, they will lose an equal amount of energy (due to having an equal drag force). Let's say 10 J (another arbitrary number) is how much energy is lost during flight over some equal distance. Now, upon reaching the target, each of the arrows have lost 10 J of energy leaving 90 J for the heavy arrow and 190 J for the light arrow. This means that the heavy arrow has lost 10% of its initial kinetic energy (10/100=0.1 or 10%) while the light arrow has only lost 5% of its initial kinetic energy (10/200=0.05 or 5%). The mass of each arrow does not change while it's traveling to the target, so the loss of energy can only be attributed to a loss of velocity. A loss of 10% in kinetic energy equates to approximately 5% less velocity of the heavier arrow, and a 5% loss in energy about 2.5% less velocity for the lighter arrow. So now, at the target, the heavy arrow is traveling at 95% of its initial velocity and the light arrow at 97.5% of its initial velocity. Once again, the mass of each arrow has not changed so the heavy arrow has lost 5% of its momentum due to air resistance while the lighter arrow has lost only 2.5%. Remember that the arrows started with an equal momentum immediately after leaving the bowstring. If the initial momentum of each arrow was 'M', the final momentum for the heavy arrow is 0.95M and for the lighter arrow is 0.975M. Upon impact, all of the arrow's momentum is transferred to the target in order to stop it (conservation of momentum occurs). At this point, the lighter arrow has more momentum to transfer to the target (0.025M more), thus resulting in greater penetration. This combined with the flatter trajectory makes lighter arrows the obvious choice, assuming all else remains equal. By the way, I graduated Summa Cum Laude from mechanical engineering school. I'm also very new to shooting bows so if there are any other factors that need to be considered (balance, stiffness, broadhead shape, etc.), please tell me!

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Awesome Brian! I appreciate this….what you are stating and what I am finding in testing is completely against what we have been told for the last 30 years….check out the Ashby Report and the Ranch Fairy on KZread (the argue the opposite-that the heavy arrow will penetrate better because of momentum but that is just not the case with what I am seeing)

@jango_bmx11

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT this discussion has been eating at me for the past couple of days so I’ve been doing more research. As I further understand the physics at play, I think my initial assumption of equal momentum immediately after leaving the bowstring is not true. It’s more appropriate to examine the bow as a stretched spring which has stored potential energy that is then transferred to the arrow as kinetic energy. So instead of considering equal momentum of the two arrows initially, it is more appropriate to consider equal kinetic energy. Doing this completely flips the script, and yields the same conclusion that the majority of the community is pushing. A heavier arrow has more momentum. Assuming conservation of energy at the time of release, which as I said seems much more appropriate, the heavier arrow actually has more momentum by a factor equal to the square root of the mass ratio. So if one arrow weighs 4 times more than the other (extreme example), the heavier arrow has double the initial momentum. Although, this doesn’t explain the results of your test, which I do not discount. I have another theory for that. Shooting cardboard is much different than shooting a live animal. The forces stopping the arrow in cardboard are cutting resistance as well as frictional drag on the shaft of the arrow. A faster arrow has a lower friction coefficient, meaning less frictional drag to stop the arrow. Even though they have the same broadheads, the heavier, slower arrow stops sooner due to experiencing more drag force due to friction. Conversely, when shooting an animal there is minimal friction after punching through the initial resistance of hide and sometimes bone. The bodily fluids and organs reduce the frictional coefficient enough that the greater momentum of the heavier arrow can overcome the difference in friction, thus creating better penetration from a heavier arrow through a live target. That’s just my theory. An interesting test would be to find a target which accurately simulates a live target and once again compare penetration. I’m thinking a 1/4” or 3/8” sheet of OSB board followed up by a soft pouch full of some kind of fruit maybe. Interested to hear your thoughts.

What kinda target is that between the containers?

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

It’s a bulldog target

First of all great stuff here, I wonder if this holds true at 50 yards, I think the light arrow and speed wins at shorter distance but kinetic energy might win at distance

Just tried this myself (again) between a 436gr arrow and 532gr arrow and my lighter arrow easily out penetrated the heavier arrow. The lighter arrow has 15.5% FOC and the heavier arrow has 12.7% FOC. The lighter arrow is 4MM and the heavier arrow is 6MM. I agree with most comments that there are a lot of variables but I’ve been testing this for years since I have such a short draw length (27”) so it matters to me. The lighter arrow has consistently had deeper penetration in all the arrows I’ve tested trying to find the best combo for my bow/draw length setup. Dr. Ashby, Ranch Fairy, and all the rest can take their heavy arrow BS somewhere else. I’ve literally NEVER not had complete pass through on an animal since 2006 and I’ve shot at least one deer each year since then. Some were at 10 yards and out to 50 yards. I’ve used mechanical and fixed broadheads both with the same results. Shot placement is EVERYTHING. Don’t shoot it if you can’t kill it. You’ll always get a better trajectory with a lighter, faster arrow with more penetration.

@RMC2021

11 ай бұрын

I’ll also add that on an animal standing broadside offers 90% soft tissue and 10% heavy bone. I’m not going to build an arrow to the possibility of hitting the 10% heavy bone, I’m going to hone my skills and practice to hit the vitals that are part of 90% soft tissue. I think all of this heavy arrow talk has turned into marketing and making people rich, not really that useful. Animals have been harvested with arrows for centuries long before the compound bow was invented. I’m sure nobody was worried about light vs heavy arrows as it pertained to penetration but maybe for trajectory as it would stand to be an easier harvest when expanding your harvesting distance. To each their own but in my opinion a heavier arrow is not always the better choice and more often than not, the worse choice.

I believe there’s an optimal weight per the individual bow specs. Kinetic energy calculators aren’t perfect but they’ll get you where you need to be for maximum penetration. For me that’s a 450 grain arrow out my bow(my draw length, weight, and velocity). Any heavier and it’s a waste of speed.

Try doing the same test with same diameter shafts. But I think every bow has the grain arrow it will perform to its max. Like the videos.

the main differences i look at are bow sound vs distance traveled. if a deer doesnt hear a bow with the heavy arrow it might not jump the arrow. if it hears the bow with the faster arrow, will the arrow get there before they jump? if theres not a major sound difference at 30 yards the faster arrow would be preferred. in a half second the faster arrow could be 10 to 15 feet ahead of the slower arrow.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

In this test at 50 yards the lighter arrow would be there 20 feet faster (1/2 second)

Joe you're not wrong

So this test is gonna make some people UPSET!!! I’m having trouble with this HEAVY arrow trend. I shot some just to see the difference with what I’m shooting now. I believe there is something to shooting heavy setups cuz there’s video proof there’s something to it. Is it as big a difference as they’d like to tell you I’m not sure. I’m used to shooting 310fps and when I fired close to a 700gr arrow it was flying 225fps. I felt like a caveman throwing a spear. In my mind there’s gotta be a compromise in there. I wanna be able to have the ability to make a mistake judging yardage and not get totally penalized for it. I also wanna be able to make a less then perfect shot and not worry about getting into the kill zone. From what I can tell if you can get to 475-525 you can have a bit heavier arrow but still maintain some speed. Then I think it’s more important to choose the right Broadheads that fly the best, hold up to impacts and are razor sharp. I’ve seen the Ranch Fairy videos and see what those arrows do to pigs and see the validity of them in that use. However if you put all the variables into how you hunt it can’t be that black and white. Your gonna stick to 20-25 yd shots in open woods fine but if your gonna shoot possibly 35-40 in thicker woods ahh not so sure. Ultra light fast stuff like I shot in past was great for threading needles but you had to be picky about your shots. No borderline stuff broadside or quartering away. Super heavy arrows have their limitations other then super close range I don’t see any way around it. I watched a Mikes Archery video the other day with the new THP Addition Bear bow and they shot 3 different arrow weights and it started at a light weight around 400gr I believe and that was around 280fps but the heaviest was 550gr bottom end of HEAVY scale and it flew at 212fps. That’s a recurve speed and you aren’t gonna find to many recurve hunters shooting past 30yds and most 25yds. There’s a reason for that so there gotta be a compromise in the middle to me. Stiffer spline, higher FOC, slightly faster bow with super sharp fixed broadhead and don’t see how you can lose.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome feedback man….appreciate it!

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/eKiLx6qOk8vdlag.html check out a better test, here.

Short answer: it's all based on the size of animal and whitetail should be considered small. Shoot the heaviest arrow that keeps a reliable speed. Tougher targets, heavier arrows. Long answer: different media have different coefficients of friction, and Poncellets equations aren't fun. Statics and dynamics aren't fun, either. Soft media will give advantage to lighter, faster arrows. Hard media, such as bone, will benefit heavier arrows. Similary, soft media is ambivalent to FOC. The shock of impact on hard media gives an advantage to higher FOC and stiffer spines. Speed is always better, but not always at the cost of weight. At lower draw weights or lengths you might not be able to use a heavy arrow. Heavy for a 60# bow is light for 80# and vice versa. Choose the speed that you can't tolerate, and just stay above that. Long ranges with occasional branches, then you'll need a lighter arrow. Short ranges with clear sight lines and go as heavy as you want to break every bone in your way. Cardboard and bag targets are mostly homogenous. Throw in a few planks of wood between layers and you'll see a benefit for heavier arrows. It'll also show the effects of KE and Momentum with different types of friction coefficients--not all are linear. Bags of water behave different than bone, go figure, but that's why you can't rely on one density of test media. The one thing the Ashby and RF fans forget is that it's not helpful on the good shots. The heavy arrows are helpful on the bad shots and weird angles. Most deer are small enough that it doesn't matter. Elk is where that changes a bit and moose are monsters. A bad shot is a bad shot. Don't aim for bad shots, but when they happen the guys with heavy arrows will take the game home more often.

The benefit of heavy arrows is all about heavy bones in heavy bones animals. Ashby spent all his time shooting Cape buffalo and water buffalo. I’d like to see you do the same test with soup bones. He also said “use the heaviest arrow that has a trajectory you can live with.” You said the “heavy arrow stuff” needs to be looked into more thoroughly, so I’d ask you to do that!

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

I have and will continue to do so….what is “you can live with” I would argue the opposite “penetration you “can live with”? Also how do you get any quantifiable data from shooting dead Cape buffalo? Your arrow literally hits something different every shot there is nothing that can be repeated so how can you draw conclusions there? I would agree 100% that a heavy arrow flying at the same SPEED as a lighter arrow will get better penetration science proves that….the issue is the slower heavy arrow has far too many disadvantages on whitetail deer…..and this conclusion is not from watching youtube videos it’s real world personal experience of shooting lots and lots of whitetail and whitetail size animals over many years and just like shooting Cape buffalo each shot is different so we need to do test like the one here so we can see consistent repeatable results…..that is really the issue we have as bow hunters, what we are trying to “prove” is done on live animals and it’s impossible so you have to look at all factors: what animal are you hunting, time it takes to get arrow to said animal, trajectory, sound, accuracy, and yes Penetration.

I have always thought the heavy arrows was just sales gimmick, these TV hunters promote it because they dont buy it, they shoot and promote whatever they are getting for free. I never was much for jumping on the gimmick train. I use what has worked best for me. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Now I know what to use if I ever get a tag for a cardboard box. Until then I’ll use what has been proven after 27 years of data collection.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Hahahahaha….what a great comment!! Love it man 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

It looked like the light arrow was a smaller diameter than the heavy arrow. I wonder if that was a factor

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

It wasn’t…all same diameter….but yes sir a smaller diameter will for sure penetrate better

What about shooting down from a tree stand or saddle?

I am finding the exact same thing that a little bit faster Arrow penetrates better than the all-out slow heavy Arrow there's a happy medium in there somewhere and you need to find it for your setup you just can't assume that the heavier arrow is going to penetrate more especially with a lighter weight poundage bow you need to find that middle of the road

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

100%!!

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/eKiLx6qOk8vdlag.html

bUt mUh 10,000 grain aRrOw wiLl gO tHrU a tReE aNd oUt tHe oThErSiDe 😅

If you can pull 80+ lbs why not go heavier. Most people can’t and do t want to sacrifice speed for a half inch penetration

So the question is, where does the extra stored kinetic energy go in the heavier arrow?

I like my arrows around 440 total weight victory vap tko , my bow is bear LS-6 shooting 287fps kill everything from deer to elk with a good old ramcat and I all ways have gotten a pass though with this set up

All I can say is, oh boy! Kool Aid is delicious, but just just flavored sugar water!

Heavier arrows shoot better in high winds as well

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

The longer an arrow is in flight the more human error and environmental conditions effect it’s accuracy

@WyoElkHntr77

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT throw a ping pong ball and a golf ball both at 40mph in the wind and tell me which ball the wind affected the most

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

@@WyoElkHntr77 heavy arrow doesn’t fly as fast as lighter arrow….you got to come up with a better example….

Yes!!!! Exactly what I told everyone!!!! That’s why I shoot really light arrows!!!!

its all bullshit pushed by bow manufactures to make bows seem quieter and broadhead companies to make more shit -i knew and everyone i know all that shit like 30 years ago . only thing heavy arrows ate good for is for slow ass bows to make them more lethal and to make fast bows quiet. heavy arrow will carry energy on long distance better but it has to be somewhat fast to be noticable

I dont know why people have to try to disprove science and real world results. Never did lighter ever do better than heavier. In real world. Penetration was never a problem until stupid fast light arrows and mechanical heads. 460 is also a lighter arrow not a light arrow light is 300s 400s is a Light medium 500 is medium -medium heavy and 600s are heavy. 350s and 400s with mechanical bounces off of deer and only do so much penetration. 500s with foc of almost 18% pass through always Especially with aluminum shafts.

Why 650 gr ?

The only thing I can say is is that the cardboard is loose, and it looks like the heavier are went first. My brain says there's a chance that the stability from the first arrow allow the other more energy to go in the cardboard for the second arrow. I only watched it twice through it looks like heavier it went first could be wrong.

@aarontaylor6000

Жыл бұрын

I also think it's a difference of broadhead to make some big difference for splitting bone.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

We switched them back and forth and have since shot through all kinds of different targets and consistent mediums and the results are the same….there is very very marginal different in penetration but a significant amount of difference in Trajectory and speed getting to the animal….I will say a good cut on contact broadhead does penetrate better than a mechanical but I see no quantifiable data that shows a heavy arrow gives you any advantage out of a modern compound bow

Try 40, 60 and 80 yards. And you only tried 2 weights. To be fare, 460, 500, 540, 580 and so on would be a better test.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

What’s holding you back from doing it? Film, edit, and post the test….can’t wait to see it!

I shot a 25 inch arrow that weighs 345 gr. That's with the broadhead. It went 276 fps. When that arrow hit a deer at 28 yds perfect broadside behind the shoulder. The broadhead didn't make it to the ribs on the other side. I shoot the rage no collar. they are the smaller cutting diameter ones. I shot 4 deer last season. 2 with the light arrow and 2 with a heavy victory arrow with a 50 gr outsert with a total weight of 516 gr. All the same broadhead. New head each time. The first 2 at 28 yds with light arrow. Thr broadhead barely hit the second lung. The last 2 shot at 31 and 33 yds. Complete pass through. All broadside shots eating out of a corn pile. Calm easy shots. The point of this comment is that everyone that I see in these videos looks like they shoot a 30 or 31 inch arrow. Can we see some testing of shorter arrows and see what the results are. I shoot at a block target and the heavier arrows go 3.5 to 4 inches deeper into the target at 30 yds than the lighter arrows do. So I think I'm going to stick to the heavier ones. Please let me know what yall think. Thanks

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

What was your speed on the 516 with the same arrow length, weight, and draw length?

@jordanpowell228

Жыл бұрын

345 grains is light, like really light. A super light arrow with an expandable isnt going to have the best results regardless of shaft length. Having the shorter shaft doesn't really mean anything except youll have a real easy time building a high foc arrow build. To be honest though, that 516 grain arrow isnt that heavy, especially if your shooting 70lbs. I shoot 26.5 in shafts with a total arrow at 455 grains and 13 percent foc which would be in-between the two you have and solid option for yourself

Have you not noticed in each of these penetration vids that the target media grips the arrow shaft after the broadhead has passed thru. Think about how much an animals body grips that same shaft.........just about zero. Razor sharp, & i mean shaving sharp, not just packet sharp works much better on flesh as well. Still surprised at your result though.

@JoeMilesMWT

3 ай бұрын

No I would totally disagree with the “grip” statement …an animals body is made to prevent penetration to its vitals and although the “grip” is different there is certainly “grip” when an arrow is going through an animal……if an animal has “zero grip” what would be the point of a razor sharp broadheads…we could just simply blow right through them with anything….skin has “grip” muscle has “grip” bone has “grip” organs have “grip” I agree with you on one point we should have razor sharp broadheads for the greatest amount of penetration.

@TheBillybushcook

3 ай бұрын

​@@JoeMilesMWT I think you completely missed my point on "grip" I was not refering to the resistance exerted against the head. I was refering to the "grip" on the shaft. Next you shoot an animal, take the broad head off, or take a target arrow & poke it through the hole made by the broadhead. There is almost zero "grip" on the shaft. Total opposite if you do that on plywood, cardboard or foam etc.

you would have to do that test atleast 5 shots....one or two shot means NOTHING

All the penetration tests on non real world materials (cardboard, Ballistic gel, etc.) Materials that create heavy friction on the arrow shaft. All are trying to disprove science and prove their choice, yeah they get the same results, because friction in those are going to cause the same results. Where as, others are shooting the comparison penetration test thru actual Animal carcasses (real world materials) using different weights, FOC and shot angles and showing much different results. Heavy and high FOC are more efficient and penetrate much better. 1 plus I have found when I switched to heavy, is my bow is now deadly quiet. Using professional Decibel Meter showing nearly 20db quieter! Not worried about trajectory, I don't try to squeeze my arrows thru tight spot thru trees. I've only lost (or increased) about 5"-7" in trajectory. The woods I hunt aren't thick. Trajectory is a non-factor. Still hit target just .10 second later but way way quieter.

The science doesn't change because its applied to bows. Trajectory is a trade off for momentum or penetration, and penetration or momentum is a trade off for trajectory. Have someone throw a baseball at your gut, then a medicine ball. Whats MOST LIKELY to push you back? Medicine ball. Your in a 1/2 ton pickup in an intersection, and get hit by a motorcycle doing 120mph, then hit by an 18 wheeler doing 65mph, its MOST LIKELY that the 18 wheeler pushes your pickup. That same basic principle applies to ashby reports. They are not looking at the between the rib perfect broadside shots. They were deliberately looking at worst case scenario for heavy bone, something that's encountered when facing the animals the reports were designed around, buffalo being the most used medium. We constantly have this debate because people have adapted to the easier archery part of the equation, and left behind the easy shot choice side. When using light arrows, and encountering a hard stopping force is MORE LIKELY to slow the arrow. When encountering a heavy bone, a heavy, high FOC arrow is MORE LIKELY to push through it. The best way I can explain it as a heavy arrow user myself; 670 grains/210 fps, Diamond Deploy SB IBO 330fps hunting at 50-60 yards in Montana; i am not afraid of any shot angle, on any animal. These tests with "consistent mediums" all they prove is if there is no resistance met, any arrow will kill exactly the same. Animals are the least consistent targets we shoot, and move the most, Id rather know my arrow will do the job if something happens, then hope that the speed of my setup gets me there easier or faster.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

So just a couple point here and not interested in a long drawn out debate here…..how do you get any quantifiable true data from shooting a Buffalo (or any animal for that matter)…ever single shot hits him slightly different So it is impossible to get reliable data from a test like that…..secondly can you point me towards any test in the last 30 years that shows momentum as a driving force of penetration. My point is I have no dog in the fight and I want the best arrow combo for hunting whitetail deer….from my testing I want a flat shooting fast arrow with plenty of penetration capability….It always goes back to the same argument with the heavy arrow crowd….hitting bone….why is that, because there is no test that is consistent with bone so it’s an unknown and that is why that argument works….if I created a 20” Thick piece of bone and shot both these arrows in to it the same thing would happen and I would get the same results as the cardboard…..we are actually doing another really detailed test coming up to try and put this to bed once and for all….thanks for the comment man and best of luck to you.

@TheCommunistBear

Жыл бұрын

​@@JoeMilesMWT the quantifiable data from buffalo, especially to address your whitetails. is if you can reliably prove that you can go through a bone on a buffalo, and that it happens at a specific weight, all else being equal, then that theory can and is, easily applied to smaller animals. You can get away with a 223 on deer, but couldnt easily do so on an elk, or buffalo. but a 375 h&h will work on a buffalo, elk, and deer without hesitation. just because the numbers change, doesn't mean the laws of physics does. Before we used speed to kill with rifles, we used muskets, and they did not have shock like our firearms have now, they used bleedout and damage. they weren't using the lightest weight they could, they were using big, heavy calibers to ensure game was retrieved.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

@@TheCommunistBear thanks for the comments man…appreciate it…best of luck to you this season.

ARROW PENETRATION TEST | PART 1 | FOC TESTING | WHERE TO ADD WEIGHT | ASHBY REPORT 6 OVERVIEW | - KZread So what do you think caused the very different results between your test and the test in the video above?

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

I will absolutely take a look at this video I am not familiar with it but will check it out.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

I watched the video…didn’t see what bow or speeds each arrow was shot from so that is important to know and the the FMJ is a smaller diameter shaft than the Maxima hunter….shaft size will play a big difference in penetration….but stay tuned we are about to do a very very detailed test on trajectory and penetration….can’t wait to get it put together! Thanks for your feedback and commenting on our video…we really appreciate it!

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT What's really interesting here is, a friend of mine was at a bow shop that was pushing lightweight arrows. He supposedly had a "heavy" arrow and a super lightweight. In the photo I received of the comparison the lightweight arrow was like 8" deeper into the target than the heavy. For one, an 8" difference tells me something else is going on, but the bowshop owner swore that other variables were accounted for. This concerned me, so yesterday I went straight home and shot 3 arrows at a block target, a bag target, and a 3d hog. I probably shot this set of 3 arrows 7 times total. Every single time the light weight arrow penetrated the LEAST. arrows were as follows: All had the same style field tip. 420gr standard diameter, 520gr standard diameter, and 520gr .204 diameter. And the penetrated exactly how physics says they should. Distances varied from 20 yards to 35 yards. So, while obviously you didn't see the same thing.....It's clear that there is something making a difference in the different testing methods.

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, meant to also ask what distance you were testing at? It seems that up close the fast arrows are fairly equal to slower and heavier, which the math supports.

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT Sorry to bombard you with comments, and questions, but they are coming real time as I do some research. Here's another good video at 40 yards. It's funny, I found some very test data from a "very respected" archery source. He showed lightweight being nearly equal to heavy weight. However, the only data he posted was at 5ft (really??) and 15 yards. I don't know what their motive it, or if it was a limitation of their testing facility, but it kind of like saying that I can run faster than a race car, because I get 3 feet from the starting line first. (race car is still spinning tires). I think it misses the point. kzread.info/dash/bejne/f4aZqKSHg9u5XZc.html

not the same shafts???????

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Yes but they are the same length and diameter…..one weights 450 and one weights 650…..are you asking a question or making a statement?

Ashby report was for recurve and long bows. Not bows of today. Ashby report and Ranch Homo is a joke.

Heavy arrow that quiets your bow could be an advantage for tree stand hunting where you have a limited shooting area. If you are shooting downwards and close anyway, maybe that trajectory loss isn't such a big deal? 🤷 Sure shooting flat ground you want the flatter trajectory. I guess there is no one size fits all arrow and you have to build to your own situation. Maybe the debate is moot because both setups will kill animals in the right situation. 🤷

550 grains going 292 fps blows through every part of the deer and has great trajectory 78# 29 inch draw iron will S100 heads. shoot what ya want Ive had way better luck with the heavy arrow and cut on contact heads... thx for the video

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

292 FPS is a great speed for hunting whitetail .

@mikepoindexter7908

2 жыл бұрын

Well, 550 grains at 292 fps is pushing 104 Ft-Lbs of kinetic energy. That is about what I was shooting when I got a pass though on my Cape Buffalo (844 grain arrow). Hell, I buried an arrow 29" into a giraffe with that same set up. I don't think you are going to find many animals in North America that you won't blow right through with that much energy, regardless of the arrow weight.

@Killada3pt

2 жыл бұрын

550 at 78/29 is not what most would consider heavy. That’s somewhat heavy for my specs(66/27). 515 gr arrow from my setup on a bow with an IBO around 335 comes in around 235 FPS. The heavy arrow cult recommends 500 minimum for whitetail. Like this video shows, my trajectory loss is significant with an arrow over 500 gr. Your 550 is essentially shooting as fast as Joe’s 460 or whatever it was.

@rattlingjunkie

2 жыл бұрын

With those specs heavy arrows don't count. Try shooting that same arrow out with a 27" draw. You won't like the trajectory at all. Maybe shoot a 650 grain arrow and report back to us.

@bcompton53

2 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/eKiLx6qOk8vdlag.html same as what my testing shows. In a much more realistic, yet consistent, test

I wonder how they would end up if shot through say 3/8 plywood then the cardboard. To imitate a bone hit.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Man you won’t believe it but we just did a test with exactly that…….if you purely look at the science the heavier arrow should penetrate better but it is very marginal and mean just a slight advantage and you are giving up a ton in trajectory and speed getting to the animal and any forgiveness in misjudged distance that a fast arrow gives you. Give and take for sure but I feel like you have to weight all the factors not just penetration

@dustinquinn3343

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT rite on. There's a lot of things to weigh out. For me its how quiet your shot is and that the arrow doesnt deflect much after hitting a bone. Ive had it happen and got lucky but wasnt impressed. That was a stock insert and 100grain fixed helix. The happy medium is where you have to be if you take far shots.

The arrows could be stabilizing at different distances - more arrow paradox? You never told us actual spines. Are shafts the same thickness? Are ferrule thickness relative to shaft diam the same? You and a lot of commentators are assuming it is simply attributed to the speed x weight factor - without considering that the carboard is a constant medium exerting friction of the shafts. It's not what you've been told - its simple physics - laws of nature. Congrats on proving you need to adjust pins for different arrow weights - how revealing. You are simply proving your lack of training in physics. Castings doubt on physics is either very brave or stupid - take your pick.

Why not a happy medium? I shoot 500g @ 283 fps - best of both worlds.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

So that is what I initially thought as well but the science says that is the worst of both worlds…you only gain 1.5% KE and lose 13.5% speed/trajectory….I really think the sweet spot is 450-480

@DIYSportsman

2 жыл бұрын

One other factor would be that around 280 is the region where many shooting fixed would start to have trouble maintaining perfect arrow flight, needing to add more vane subsequently causing that extra speed to decay faster and added noise. I'm in that same 500gr 280-285 range but testing faster to see what happens. With the mechanical it doesn't seem to matter as much.

@blakebaxley7313

2 жыл бұрын

@@DIYSportsman looking forward to seeing your results brother!

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

@@DIYSportsman 100%….I see far far greater advantages to mechanical heads when hunting whitetail

@DIYSportsman

2 жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT My plan most likely for this season is sevr heads (the forgivenss is unreal) unless I'm set up on the ground with grass, briers, ferns, etc and higher likelihood of a non-broadside shot. So I can probably push a little faster like you're showing and still be ok. I likely just wouldn't take the full gamut of shot angles with the mech compared to the fixed without additional experience and confidence with deflection.

There are measurable differences in energy and energy retention with any projectile. I have no idea why your cardboard test turned out the way it did but there are plenty of videos that show just the opposite. There is no denying the math and science. A heavier arrow has and retains more energy. Whether or not that energy is necessary, now that is open for discussion. Whether or not the extra energy is a worthwhile tradeoff for the loss in trajectory is definitely up for debate. Most any modern equipment is capable of killing....but you must first hit what youre aiming at.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Yeah I guess that is really the point….I have tested the 450 Vs the 650 in lots of different mediums and seeing very little difference in penetration but the math does show it should….how fast the arrow gets to the animal is important, how flat the arrow shoots is important, how much penetration you get is important, and how accurate you are is the most important…..we can’t just look at one of these and make a decision on arrow selection we have to look at all of them….the trend nowadays seems to be penetrating over every thing else and to me that is a big mistake.

@robm5100

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT well....thats probably due to the 1000s of videos of deer being shot and guys getting poor penetration Chasing speed was the thing and is just as bad Mechanical broadheads are also to blame. The combination of light arrows and mechanical heads is even worse Not to mention mechanical heads disguise tuning issues

Now step back to 60 yards and try again

Lets hunt to boars. you will feel the different,at moment i guaranted.

I shoot hoggs wt my Mathews v3x 29. Wt Easton axis 5mm arrows 340 spine 420 grains wt a Rage hypodermic and get pass throughs all the time 29inch draw wt the 65# mod. Cool video

Penetration really is negatively affected when heavy bone is encountered. And with all else equal, a heavier arrow with a single bevel broadhead will do better on bone. Which this test certainly did not take into account. Next time I'm hunting cardboard I'll keep this in mind and run light arrows. Because of the nature of the test medium, all shots are going to have similar penetration. Animals are a lot different.

@JoeMilesMWT

Жыл бұрын

Well Big Al D….I made very very clear reference to this before the test even started but there is always one good troll out there that just can’t help but pop off…..good for you, thanks for taking the precious time out of your day to be that guy……Best of luck to you this season….I’m going to keep hunting my cardboard, think I found some that is pushing Boone and Crocket!

@bigald9560

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT sounds good. Good luck with that. I've heard a nice cardboard buck tastes great!

@bowhunter4893

Жыл бұрын

Lmao… Ive cleaned a deer which had big bevel broad head stuck in the shoulder bone. Heavy weight shafters make me laugh.

Testing trajectory the way you did is very flawed. Nobody would take a heavy arrow out to shoot an animal with a bow that's sighted in for a light arrow. If you sight each arrow in at 20 yards, then look at the differences in actual flight path, it's very minimal. Also, hitting the animal square and true, is not listed as one of the 12 factors to penetration. Straight arrow flight is, but that's talking about a tuned bow and arrow. An arrow coming into an oval shaped target from the minor angle that a long distance shot produces isn't relevant.

@JoeMilesMWT

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much for the information and feedback….really really appreciate it!

@gregsido9235

Жыл бұрын

@@JoeMilesMWT 😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣

🙄