Asalamualaykum While most of the comments online have been positive there was some criticisms of the podcast I wanted to address. Firstly duaat should welcome criticisms and they have to make sure they address valid concerns raised by well meaning muslims. I have invited shoaib previously on my channel and we agree and disagree on some matters. Below are a few clear ones. My approach is to challenge Darwinism, his is to ask if it is true then what can a Ghazalian Sunni framework allow. He challenges ID, I am pro ID. I have always been open to subscribe human exceptionalism and creationism, he is open to adamic exceptionalism as well as these but we both reject no exceptions. To be clear I reject Adamic exceptionalism but I don't challenge him on the podcast, from the beginning I planned to challenge him on ID as that's my main area of interest. On adamic exceptionalism there was some criticism which I sent him and I also asked another Ghalazian Scholar of his opinion. True I didn't push back on that view but it doesn't automatically mean I subscribe to it either. Me and Shoaib can discuss this point in the future. I grant he is the expert on what a Ghalazian Sunni approach would entail and has support and criticism for that. I only stuck to the fact that we both reject Adam having any parents and reject no exceptions. That is a super important point of convergence. there is a variant of the Adamic exception view which doesn't allow interbreeding with Neanderthals but rather says Adamic line goes way back over 750k and therefore Neanderthals are not a different species but are of the same tree. As a side point Neanderthals were not brutes or animals but pretty sophisticated, this is a view we can discuss in the future insha'Allah. I do not think some of the points raised online are valid namely calling Shoaib a heretic and saying I shouldn't give him platform. This is absurd, i have known him for years he can change his opinion and has done in the past, I am sure he can change his opinion on Adamic exceptionalism if it can be shown to be a theoretical heresy. Lastly he never says what he believes, only what he is open to. He is open to creationism as well, doesn't mean he actually believes in it. Shoaib is a friend and someone i believe who sincere to the cause of Islam. If he is wrong he will change his opinion without hesitation insha'Allah As Muslims we can amicably disagree but we shouldn't create an environment to normalise heretical beliefs and I will be glad to take this video down if it does that. Atm I think this video is fine. One last thing I want to say and I believe this point is the most important point. Shoaib is not a modernist but a traditionalist. Here is the proof that is evident throughout his career, modernists have tried to make Islam compatible with Darwinism and have tried to show Adam AS has evolutionary ancestors. Shoaib has done more work than anyone else to absolutely debunk this idea! He has shown it is impossible for a Muslim to believe this. Additionally modernists have been unchallenged academically on their use of the argument that early Muslims accepted evolutionary ancestors, he proved that the early Muslims did not at all subscribe to this idea. He took away the main tool used by modernists to challenge the Quranic Adamic story. So he is definitely not a modernist. See paper below: philpapers.org/rec/AHMOTN If you disagree with what I said please comment below I could be wrong and Allah knows best

@median1111

Жыл бұрын

Asalaamu alaikum Subboor bhai The major problem I would hope you consider is the brother's comment regarding design arguments being weaker (main issue as I see it) according to his opinion and the contingency argument (secondary problem) being a stronger argument for the existence of God. The reason is that Allah highlights many different aspects of His creation (trees, plants, clouds, mountains, mankind, various animals and their features etc.) as proofs of His Oneness/Existence in the Quran. Allah does this far more often than using arguments of an abstract nature such as in Surah Toor. While Allah being necessary is known, Allah does not expand on the contingency argument in the Quran. Therefore it is out of sync with the Quranic narrative for anyone to say the contingency argument is the best argument for God's existence. How can the best argument for the existence of Allah not be expanded upon in the Quran ( to be more accurate, I mean not expanded upon openly such as the argument in Surah Toor, as one bro pointed out it can be extracted from Surah Ikhlaas) ?? And how can the aspects of creation which Allah calls attention to be weaker arguments than an abstract argument that Allah does not use (to be more accurate, at least not openly, whereas the features of the creation are not just used openly but used again and again)?? It does not matter if someone does not believe in the Quran in the absence of revelation scenario as he put it. These signs work extremely well on non-believers. If someone says that shared ground needs to be the starting point with atheists i.e. reason (contingency argument for him) then implicitly it could be taken from such a statement that the Quranic aayaat are not as powerful a tool as a non Quranic argument for changing peoples hearts (in the atheist scenario he mentioned specifically as he does say they have general value). Obviously this is clearly incorrect. And could influence those watching/duaat/potential duaat into simply following what he says as he is speaking on youtube, this blind swallowing and repeating does happen. Therefore we need to think about every word we say on a public platform such as KZread We need far more investment in Quranic dawah than non Quranic dawah and the last thing we should want is Muslims running away with the idea that Quranic dawah is not the best starting point with anyone, atheists included. Also as Shuayb said the design arguments (I have used the plural here as they are literally endless, another major plus point to them as you can chain related signs together and strengthen the dawah this way) are intuitive and strike chords with people, this also puts them over and above the contingency argument, rather than below it. They have worked extremely well in dawah for myself and other brothers I know and I have also had reports from people who have come closer to Islam via pondering on these signs by themselves. I get the strong impression that Shuayb does not give dawah to non Muslims directly (which he more or less admitted when he said his arena is the classroom to be fair )hence why he trumps the contingency argument over the signs in creation as arguments for Gods existence. What works in the classroom and what works in reality on the ground are often quite different. Which to be fair he alluded to himself. The design/signs arguments present people with things known through their lived experience in contrast to the contingency argument which is abstract and quite frankly boring. The contingency argument does not touch the heart either due to its bland nature. It has also been around for centuries and people may have copy and paste replies stored in their heads already (I am not saying the atheist replies are valid and that contingency does not make sense), hence the contingency argument does not flick any light bulbs for them. Hopefully you get my point here, I genuinely find it concerning that any Muslim can say the contingency argument is the best argument for Gods existence when it is not expanded upon in the Quran. And vice versa I find it concerning to hear any Muslim say the design/signs arguments are weaker (in the atheist dawah scenario he mentioned, I know he said he does not find them problemtic generally) when they are expanded upon throughout the Quran. I hope you can see the potential pitfalls here Barak Allahu feek

@akram6505

Жыл бұрын

@@median1111 I would argue that the contingency argument is perfectly portrayed in Surat Al-Ikhlaas, with additional essential descriptions of Allah subhanahu wa ta'alah. Him being, One and only. Necessary and independent (As-Samad). Didn't beget nor was He begotten & He is completely unique. Hadith stating that reciting this chapter is as if one has recited a third of the Quran also portrays the worth of this chapter. So I do think that the contingency argument is perfectly expanded upon in the Quran. Really interested in what everyone else thinks of this. I'd like to take this chance to thank Subboor, Shoaib and you brother for your amazing manners and intellectual sincerity. May Allah guide us all and protect us from anything that would distance us from Him. And Allah knows best.

@koroglurustem1722

Жыл бұрын

Br Subboor, jazak Allahu khairan for this great discussion. Alhamdulillah we have such discourses in our ummah with rigor and respect for the tradition and the truth. I think he is sticking with the theological red line of Adamic exceptionalism as in Quran has clear statements about creation of Adam directly from clay, but does not elaborate on the creation of other living things. One can argue that Adam is also example for other species, hence other species also have their 'adams' so to speak. However it may not clearly follow from the verses. Therefore Dr Shoaib sticks with what is a clear Quranic position and is open to accept other possibilities regarding other species. I also agree with the point raised by br above about the strength of design arguments. As you also mentioned during the podcast, it is in fact possible to construct a robust design argument. However it needs to be done in a rigorous manner. As a scientist I understand the caution practiced by Dr Shoaib when it comes to dealing with theologically inspired arguments. We have accumulated a lot of counter arguments from atheists that we need to be careful about how we formulate our arguments. I applaud the efforts of Dr Shoaib and his colleagues to come up with a series of books on Islam and Science. I always imagined an academic journal where Muslim scholars with scientific and theological backgrounds can hash out their ideas freely without the fear of being called heretical. Because we need to play with different ideas. Even the interpretation of the Quran is not fixed in stone (except for very fundamental principles of course). We need to be open as br Shoaib to different opinions that our theological principles allow. If we make the rules too rigid, then we will not be able to come up with different possibilities due to too many constraints.

@median1111

Жыл бұрын

Asalaamu alaikum I did say Allah being necessary is known, perhaps I should have added that His Names such as As-Samad also clearly denote necessity. So I agree you can take the argument from Surah Ikhlaas. However it is not openly expanded upon in the Quran as the argument for His existence that Allah uses in Surah Toor. Also my main point was not saying the contingency argument is baseless, it was claiming it to be a better starting point with an atheist than the amazing features of natural phenomena. Allah draws attention to these things He created as signs pointing to him over and over in the Quran. I maintain something which Allah mentions openly over and over as pointers to Him is a far better starting point than that which is implied and taken as the contingency argument. By the way Surah Ikhlaas should be the base of dawah and it works very well as a display of our clear tawheed, especially when used as a contrast to any false creed. I do also feel to say the atheist has a starting point of reason is incorrect, as their world view is the height of delusion. As I said before on the ground with myself and others, using the various signs in Quran with a little bit of explanation has worked extremely well and is an “alive” method of dawah. In contrast the contingency argument is boring and flat. If you look at the dawah of the Prophet (saws) , it was directed towards the hearts of the people. This is an essential aspect of dawah as well as making sure our dawah is intellectually robust. Atheists are no more than modern day mushrikoon (world view, life goals and habits are more or less the same, i.e. all dunyaa), despite what they would like to think. Therefore they do not deserve to be given reason as a common ground( generally speaking, obviously there are sincere atheists who have become Muslim after receiving the message). Hopefully I made my point more clear Jazak Allah khair for the tip about Surah Ikhlaas, I should have included that in my first post

@akram6505

Жыл бұрын

@@median1111 Wa iyyak thank you for your clarification, I completely agree with you! Especially on the part that da'wah should be directed to the mind as well as the heart, since especially the hearts are troubled. And what better way to speak to a persons heart than the Quran and Sunnah.

Fascinating!

@sanan11

Жыл бұрын

Can u have discussion with him paul sir.

@samkb6374

Жыл бұрын

@@sanan11 Paul already did.

@farazahmed8263

Жыл бұрын

Brother Paul, please do a show with Ali Ataie or with some other scholar on - What Orientalists generally believe who authored the Quran (is it the unchanged word of Muhammad according to Orientalists or what).

@AimeneZemmour

Жыл бұрын

salam brother paul plz can you have brother shoaib malik on your show and you are most welcom for that siiiiir

@Thomas_de_Regt

8 ай бұрын

​@@farazahmed8263Paul had an episode about that. Cant tell you which one exactly

Not a theologian or a scientist myself. But I too used to think Islamic tradition was worthless, now i know how wrong i was. May Allah show mercy on me.

@Call_Upon_YAH

Жыл бұрын

Be it known: Through the Holy Spirit, God has put it on me to preach to those lost in the devil's deceit! I tell ye, truly, Jesus of Nazareth is the propitiation for the whole world's sins. He is the anointed one, for he is, Jesus Christ. God the Father has raised him from the dead; who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God! Angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father, but by him. They who believe and are baptized with the Holy Spirit shall be saved; but they who believe not shall be damned. For they who believe not on him, shall die in their sins! I tell ye now to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon asking the Father! There are *NO* sub-divisions of Christianity. You're either a disciple of Christ or not. A Christian is someone who follows God's word, not a religion. Who obey the Father and follow his will; not man's nor their own heart's. Unless you keep Jesus' commandments, think not the Holy Spirit will dwell within you! They who heed this message and did what was stated with an open heart to God... Read the Holy Bible (KJV) daily and every time before you read, pray to the Father and ask: "Lord I ask that you give me understanding of your word, that I interpret it the way you want me to, and none of my own. I ask you in Jesus' name, amen." 1 John 2:2 KJV 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Acts 13:26-33 KJV 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, *and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.* 27 *For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.* 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 *And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.* 30 *But God raised him from the dead:* 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 *And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,* 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 1 Peter 3:22 KJV 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. John 14:6 KJV 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Mark 16:16 KJV 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. John 8:24 KJV 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Acts 2:38 KJV 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Luke 11:13 KJV 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? John 14:21-24 KJV 21 *He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.* 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, *If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.* 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and *the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.*

@mahasham4759

Жыл бұрын

​@@Call_Upon_YAHYou say God raised Jesus from the dead and then you call Jesus god. How can god DIE?

@aminaaden2921

Жыл бұрын

​@@Call_Upon_YAH Keep your preaching to yourself and leave us alone. No one in here asked for your help.

@mahasham4759

Жыл бұрын

@@Call_Upon_YAH Show me one verse from the Bible where Jesus says I am god or where he says worship me. Jesus said I have not come to destroy the Laws of Moses out to uphold the Laws of Moses. Paul declared set aside the Laws of Moses and said you live by the grace of God which no other Prophet has ever preached. All the Prophets before him preached following the Laws. Are you following the teachings of Jesus or are you following teachings of Paul? If you are following the teachings of Paul you are not a follower of Christ. You are a follower of Paul. You are following Pauline religion.

@LUTFAR-ERP

Жыл бұрын

Ameen

For those wondering, the author mentioned at 50:06 might've been 'E.V.R Kojonen'

The podcast setup we didn't know we needed. Props. Mabrook on the setup and jzk to both of your efforts my dear brothers.

Great discussion! MashaAllah I loved Dr Shoaibs book as well!

@snakejuce

Жыл бұрын

barakAllahu feek.

Loved the convo, love to Dr Shoaib and subbor

What an amazing podcast and because of this discussion I'm interested in reading that book.

Mashallah looking forward to this

Love the studio setup ,,it's fantastic

AlahumaBarik Was looking forward to this ❤️👍

Very nice convo. May Allah bless you two

this brother is amazing, i would love to listen to him much much more, can you make more ep with him if he has time OR can somebody link some of his lectures if he has any and books that he has. jazakum Allah khair

@kaz4845

Жыл бұрын

Dr shoaib is very active, he has a book which he made available for free download and has academic podcasts

@nadia.2869

11 ай бұрын

& you can find him @bloggingtheology with dr. Paul Williams ❤🌹

I really was thinking about the scientifical arguments that the scholars use to prove quran because it's like using their work(atheist) to prove yours but their work is already on a probabilistic frame work so it's not a valid argument to build up from it I feel like it's more for muslims that have weak imaan not for atheist that know actually how science work But the contingency argument and the causality argument does hold their ground as the strongest Guys thanks for real this was an enjoyment to my ears بارك الله فيكم اخوتي في الاسلام❤

@rajababy2009

Жыл бұрын

only their one answer is enough for me Who initiated big bang , What is out side of Big bang , How Non Living Atom turn int o living Cell and their answer is We dont know , This is is enough for me to strengthen my faith in ALLAH SWT , they dont know about 99 percent of universe and straight goes towards the statement that GOD does not Exist

i just broadened my horizons a little, thank you جزاكما الله خيرا كثيرا

We need more Muslim high achievers like saboor and Dr shoaib

Love this new setup

Thank You for this episode Subboor. We need this brother on more episodes. I’m a layman who struggled to understand the conversation but I need to see more conversations with this brother please.

Happy to see this episode. It speaks to me volumes. I am grateful that someone actually followed into the rabbithole of evolution and our theology from Ghazzalian perspective and came up with a critical framework. I am also happy he criticizes Nidhal Gassoum's views. When I was reading his Islam's Quantum question I was rejecting some of his approaches right away. As a scientist myself, I am very much in line with "scientific approach". However some of the assertions of the materialist philosophy of science does not gel 100% with Islamic worldview. It's important for us to come up with our own philosophy of science starting from Islamic theology. Meanwhile I am aware that theology stated in the earlier generations may not be the final word on the Quranic worldview. For example, relativity has certainly shifted the paradigm when it comes to understanding the time and space. Relativity may not be the final word either. However it opened a door to the new possibility of interpretation.

May Allah preserve both of you.

Love the video quality.

Masha ALLAH

Love the new studio Subboor

Wonderful discussion. You should have discussions like this in a setting like this with Dr. Shoaib and other guests often. Even though I respectfully disagree with Dr. Shoaib on Design being weak philosophically but strong intuitively, there are underlying ontological and epistemological assumptions about intuition and its relationship to the external world, I believe there can be Philosophically valid and philosophically sound arguments from design with multiple propositions with premises that necessarily conclude design based on the validity of those premises, I respect Dr. Shoaib for the enormous work he has done and continues to do so. May Allah bless him and increase him in beneficial knowledge. Aameen

🧬 the duo I been looking for !

KEEP THESE VIDEOS COMING

Good work, thank you. May Allah bless you all

Asalaam alaykum br Shoaib, I read your paper on Occasionalism, great work 👍

Intelligent muslims , thank you for this great conversation. ...

Really inspiring podcast. Salam to both of you.

@malemokie4775

Жыл бұрын

Wa salama 3alayk akhoya 😊

You taught me in middle school at resalah school Dr Shoaib. Thank you for your dedication :)

Both of u have fulfilled my wish. Thanks. It means we will accept both sides. Please make this in Urdu language so that sub continents people may understand.

It's good to see brothers happy. I watched in separate videos that they have opposing views on how evolution is viewed in Islam and thought it would be interesting if these two talked with one another.

Great discussion. I learn some much jizakallah kher

Mashallah Barakallah 🤲 keep up with this good work 💟󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠󠁝‍󠁝󠀠☪☪

thank you so much Dr Shoaib and Subboor, may Allah SWT bless both of you for your effort amin

Great podcast Mashallah

Alhamdulillah

Amazing discussion. May Allah preserve you both and your families. aameen

Mashallah Shoaib Malik!

Very engaging deep conversation full of nuances

Superb.

Thanks a lot for this wealthy conversation

Really good and interesting podcast, MashaAllah TabrakAllah. Would love a podcast in which you challenge the naturalistic/scientism approach to evolution and refute it in detail.

Amazing podcast... Just finished..... Since both are urdu origin.... Plz can you have podcast in urdu too

May keep these gems of my Muhammad SAW Ummah♥️

We missed you subuur

Dear Brother Subboor, assalamu alaikom wa rahmatu'llahi wa barakatuh. I have a huge favour to ask of you that is at the same time an Islamic duty and obligation: Our brothers and sisters in Ethiopia are currently under attack from the government which has destroyed within a few weeks dozens of mosques in Addis Ababa alone, that's besides the desecration of the Qur'an and the anti-hijab policies. Please use your platform to raise awareness, sound the alarm and call for the violence and violations to stop immediately. Thank you very much in advance and may Allah bless you.

Assalamu Alaykum brother Subboor, Thank you for the podcast. I believe the crux of the matter with brother Sohaib is his theological paradigm regarding the Fitrah and rationality. He seems to be separating the two in a way that is not known from a traditional prophetic way. Unlike the western framework (which is essentially also affected by aristotelian philosophy), the islamic sunni way to prove the basics of the deen don't rely solely on a multitiple premise + conclusion type of reasoning. Carefully examination of the Quran and Sunnah and the way dawah was made in the first centuries, the intuitionist approach was the most dominant. The issue with the "design argument" seems therefore to be weak only to a specific paradigm of reasoning. Also the quranic arguments are not and were not exclusively made to persuade believers, but all humans and Jinn. Which necessarily entails it's arguments to be profound to any audience whatsoever. The quranic arguments should therefore persuade both the masses as well as the academics. And should it not do so then the issue lies not within the arguments but with the receiver of these arguments. Of course this does not mean muslims shouldn't try and convert some of the quranic arguments such as the design argument into aristotelian type arguments. But us not achieving that yet is by no means evidence that it is a weak argument. Wallahu A'lam.

Salam alaiqum

Very charming man

Great podcast

Salaam. Where’s Shoaib’s thoughts on ERV’s ?

This is good stuff

Next time he comes on, I would like to hear more about his vision for the future regarding AI and how muslims can develop themselves to make sure they stay ahead of the curve.

Whilst he feels the contingency argument can be explained in foolproof way, design arguments resonate with far more people because they themselves see beauty and intricacy in the creation, which resonates on a more visceral level, than philisophical arguments. Allah even points to aspects of the creation in hundreds of ayat. They do work in kindling and reinforcing belief in Allah. Perhaps he needs to be more careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. It is good to hold ID arguments to greater scrutiny, whilst still acknowledging the theme underlying of these arguments are signs pointing to a creator.

Ai is not bad necessary, there is a healthy and beneficial way for having AI in our lives: A decentralized approach to AI would involve running AI microservices on multiple devices and having them communicate with each other through a decentralized network, such as Holochain. This is different from a centralized approach, where AI is running on a single central server. A decentralized approach would be more resilient and secure, as it would not have a central point of failure and would be less vulnerable to attacks. It would also allow for the development of AI microservices that are specifically tailored to the needs of individual users or communities, rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. This would promote the development of AI technologies that better align with the needs of people and society as a whole. Additionally, a decentralized approach to AI would give people more control over how they use AI and what data they share, which would be a significant improvement over a centralized approach.

The brother should create his own KZread channel for sure.

If Adams body is created using clay matter. And clay matter can preserve and regenerate cells and DNA to form a protein, tissue, limbs, bones and a body. Therefore Prehistoric human (homo sapien sapien) genetic material was incorporated within clay matter to create Adams body rather than a continuous process of human evolution indicating a mixture of both evolution and creation called Evoation.

More debating more speakers corner please!

43:28 then what is it saying? "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47)

Maybe i missed this part, but can someone explain to me how accepting evolution would sllow adsm snd eve fit in thr picture snd hoe we evolving from apes fits?

👍👍👍

وَعَلَيْكُم السَّلَام وَرَحْمَةُ اَللهِ وَبَرَكاتُهُ

Goof effort. I am researching for my own book on Evolution for last few years in the light of Quran. I can see there is much more to extract from Quran instead of following a particular sect.

1:07:48 big points

How would you know that the contingency argument is bulletproof? How are you sure that someone might have an other argument that would not show a gap in this reasoning like history shows with other philosophical idea's and as a consequence, jeopardising our belief. Maybe it is better to have an pragmatic approach since we can't know everything ever?

❤❤❤

One more point Allah says that we aren't able to create life and even create a fly so we definitely have to be steadfast on that point that its not possible to achieve as it would otherwise be directly at odds with the Quran

As fields of science, economy, politics, theology are all getting really complex and the expert in one field doesn't know much about the other it raises concerns about how will other fields go and hand in hand with right political belief because it can be pretty hard to believe in them as there can be alot of times today where huge sacrifices will be the need and right to do but it will be impossible for others fields expert to comprehend it and do it.

Could you please explain what you mean by ID?

@aimanamin3993

5 ай бұрын

Intelligent Design

Wallahi this guy should join the dawah team you really dont know how it Will help

I respect you highly for the amazing work you do, Subboor. However, with this podcast, I feel a bit troubled. Dr. Shoaib mentions "adamic exceptionalism" as a valid possibility "scriptually" - I do not think "adamic exceptionalism" is compatible with our islamic sources - and I am sure that most traditionalist scholars from all backgrounds would agree with that. That is because it is based upon the idea that the children of Adam (aleyhi salam) procreated with hominids - which is an idea that is - in my honest opinion - impossible to defend in light of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. Would really love for you to comment on that issue in another video.

@walisaib443

Жыл бұрын

I think u ve got it wrong exeptionalism is basically saying that human beings were created separately in a miraculous way ,other creatures could have been created via some sort of evolutionary mechanism and that is totally acceptable theologically. excuse my English 😅

I think the Design argument from the Quran entails a Merciful & Compassionate God. Matter of fact, design entails just that, even if it's inductive; as an argument from chaos/disorder (or the opposite of design) is also inductive but doesn't cancel out God neither, due to Contingency/Dependency. It results in a God who is indifferent & not compassionate towards His creatures. This is the reason Allah mentions it. Allah know best.

i'm not a schollar of this field so this is just my humble opinion A part of the problem are archeological finding that is constricted to a certain narative of evolution Have you seen Ancient Apocalypse ( a netflix documentary) when i saw that documentary i can see a parallel with islamic/abrahamic stories we heard as muslim and how it contradict evolution theory Wallahua'lam

@RunRocksYT

Жыл бұрын

Read Sohaibs book

Please subboor can you talk about iq and the fact that it supposedly predict success ?

Design argument will always have contentions which muslims should know about if they use the design argument.

41:14

Issues like AI and artificial pregnancy; I would say we don't have to go theological about it since secular data also give a lot of insight (e.g. children born out of sperm donation banks have different mental (?) issues than children born out of a traditional family or in case of artificial womb; does the mother feel a personal, biological and sacrificial connection with the child born out of an artificial womb?). The overal theological goal would be: does it harm or benefit the society since the sharia promotes well-being so that it creates an environment which makes it more easy to worship God.

Don't fall for auto generated captions

timestamps?

1:01:00 almost fitra 😁😆

May Allah reward people who try and defend Islam. And may Allah deal with people who use any Imams names like Al Ghazali ra and inject their modern trash.

But Qur'an is using the intelligent design argument against disbelievers and polytheists... It's not just for muslims... Don't you see how two different plants use the same water but it turns to something else for both? Don't you see that God could have made the water salty if he wanted to. These arguments can turn our attention to scientific or metaphysical design, but it's still intelligent design. The purpose of design is different though. There could have been a reality where we needed to drink salty water to survive but it's the mercy of Allah for him to make water desirable. And the design of the world as a non-perfect place with suffering, evil happening, and the design of humans as adaptable yet fallible creatures, just proves that this reality is for testing us and creating our stories. If everything was perfect there would be no test and there would be no story, everyone would have to be same so that everyone would be equal. If good and evil and imperfection didn't exist, nothing would exist other than God, if you really think about it. The scientism/naturalism paradigm assumes that if there was intelligent design there would be no errors and this place would be paradise, and we would live in paradise without deserving it. They don't even think that far though, they just point at the suffering children and say they are atheists lol.

@veerhihi

Жыл бұрын

Atheists are united in defending each others even on wrong basis and science is totally against this behavior but they still use it as an explanation of their delusional ideology in addition with a little bit of philosophy, some quoting from famous writers and influencers and word playing but their ultimate failure is that their whole ideology is based on pick and choose. Few muslims are sadly opening gaps which makes other people attack Islam also some muslims refuse to unite with their muslim brothers and sisters to defeat certain ideologies due to their egos and personal matters.

@saivardhanannam1086

Жыл бұрын

As you said if the world is perfect, it would be a paradise and you said that we don't deserve it. But if the world is perfect that means we are perfect so that makes us deserving of paradise.

@oktayakbas4904

Жыл бұрын

@@saivardhanannam1086 but then the perfection would be given to you, so you didn't strive for it or suffered for it. In islam you are only rewarded for your efforts. Someone blessed with money can give half his money in donation, but it doesn't effect his wealth so it is easy for him, and another person might have very little money in comparison but he donates an amount that he can, much less compared to other person, but he might be rewarded more because his sacrifice is bigger. And if you think about it, if everyone was perfect, they need to be all equal, in essence we would all need to have the same destiny, the same life, otherwise it would be unjust. It would be impossible for different beings to exist actually. However you look at it, the perfect reality from the start sounds impossible, that's why only 1 can be perfect which is God. We only strive to perfect our attributes, without evil and deficiency, there is no journey or striving. Everything is given to you by God in your destiny anyway, the only thing we have is our efforts and suffering. That's why the best people have the hardest lives. You can listen to Jeffrey Lang's talks on this topic, he was an atheist mathematician and he became muslim, he is well studied too.

@saivardhanannam1086

Жыл бұрын

@@oktayakbas4904 answer this question. If a person doesn't believe in allah. What can be the most probable reason? He isn't born in an Islamic family right. Is that his mistake? Doesn't Allah decide where we take birth. So because of allah some people were born in conditions which resulted in them not believing in him. And also he said to punish the non believers.isnt it a little illogical. It is allah who is responsible for a person not believing in him yet he punishes them and also promotes violence against non believers. Read surah 9:5 , surah 2:191, surah 3:151

@maruf2050

Жыл бұрын

@@saivardhanannam1086 The answer is there if you really want to listen but I can feel you don't want to. You have closed your mind and heart. There are many Islamic streams, you can join for live q&a rather than being a troll.

I can't believe that argued that the design argument in the quraan is for someone who believes in the Quraan!!! But for non-Muslims, it is not a string argument. The quraan was revealed to non Muslims initially and Muslims. There was no pushback from Sabur

@kabhussain3113

Жыл бұрын

You misunderstood i think. However I would like to know how you would outline the design argument from the Quran.

@median1111

Жыл бұрын

Asalaamu alaikum. Which time of the video did he mention this??

@RunRocksYT

Жыл бұрын

Minute 55

@RunRocksYT

Жыл бұрын

Agreed I wish suboor pushed back because, respectfully, that was clearly wrong on sohaibs part

@median1111

Жыл бұрын

@@RunRocksYT Jazak Allah khair. I have left a reply on Subbors pinned comment

AssalamWaAlikum Saboor Bhai. My question is I can't figure out how neanderthals and homosapiens interbred and there 2-4% genome is found in modern human apart from Sub- Saharan people. As Muslims it would be problematic and it goes against the miraculous creation of Hazrat Adam AS. Also I've heard that Molana Madodi also said that Homosapiens interbreed with Nenderthal to continue the generation of Hazrat Adam, what's your regard on this. Also tell me why neanderthalian genome is found in only European people and absent in Sub-Saharan people. Can you please answer me in detail. And Saboor bhai I need your email because I have other questions which I want to ask you in personal message. JazakAllah Khair brother.

@muhammadabdullahi7200

Жыл бұрын

The idea in Islamic theology regarding Adam as, is that we all are decedents of him. Now, there is nothing in the Quran or Sunnah that contradicts the idea that some humans/decedents of Adam pbuh, may have had intercourse with Neanderthals, in the end we would still be decedents of Adam even though some humans had intercourse with Neanderthals. And brother, my advice is that you should go and seek knowledge about the Quran and why you believe it to be the word of god, and why you believe in god in the first place. As regards to evolution, watch shoib ahmeds lecture that he did, I think it was 4 hours long, and he covered many concerns. As for Quran and god, you can read the book called “The divine reality” as a pdf online, and it will give you arguments for gods existence and Quran being word of Allah, and when you are convinced of that, nothing else will trigger your faith.

@shamaliya987

6 ай бұрын

@@muhammadabdullahi7200do you recommend any other books?

Science is so much more rewarding when using Islam as the yard stick.

@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey

Жыл бұрын

So please name great scientists from Pakistan where Islam is the yardstick for almost everything..I know of one -Abdus Salam-who was however not really recognized in his own country !

@WonderfulWorldview-pg3ey

Жыл бұрын

@@farooqbinadam appreciate your approach Farook bro..indeed psychology and science are two great fields that we humans should be more exposed to so that we understand our quest and our purpose and relationship with other humans…Ideologies have but divided humans …thank you

@jj-yi1ne

Жыл бұрын

science is not a monolith

According to darwinism were just an animal among many. According to the big bang were just a planet among many. Arent these two "theories" 2 sides of the same coin?

And also he always claims that Islam is a peaceful religion. If it is true Can you please explain the meanings of surah 9:5 , surah 3:151, Surah 2:191.

I don't think contingency argument that strong either... you have to add the argument from hierarchy... then it'll straightforward leads to god. Although it may still go to polytheism, that's when monotheistic God will reign supreme.

Sorry, very tempted to say email ID.. What is ID?

@----f

Жыл бұрын

Hmm, did they say that? ID usually means intelligent design in these conversations

Evolution is NOT a surprise finding in a theistic world. It might have surprised at one point, but only because of a lack of knowledge about biology. Now we have more knowledge, no one should find it interesting that evolution occurs within a theistic world, as its the normal behaviour or DNA.

Science, Islam and the pool of liquid dirt where the Sun sets every day.

🌹🌹🌹❤️❤️❤️

I think it's more of not being aware of our tradition rather than this "colonised mind" thing.

it seems that mr ahmad and mr malik agree that there is design in nature, i find this opinion very problematic, 1) even though i’m not an expert as far as i can see nature and particularly biological systems are far from been perfect, as you would expect if these were the work of an all-knowing, all-perfect being 2) i think the concepts of design and/or purpose are applicable to human affairs (social and political sciences) nature functions according to physical laws that are indifferent to human wishes, likings or opinions

Saboor kindly respond to druv rathee

I'm ok with different theories mentioned about evolution and Adam (a.s), but my theory which I haven't seen anywhere is that Adam a.s could have had a mother in a form other than the human form which we know today. Because Adam and Jesus a.s are compared in the Qur'an they both were miraculous in their creation but maybe Adam had a single parent like Isa a.s too. Apparently both of them are mentioned 25 times in the Quran too, but I didn't count myself. "Be and it is" phrase is mentioned for both if I remember correctly. So these could be signs for us to reflect on an extra possible explanation. I am perfectly fine with the understanding that Adam was created in paradise with no parent present, but I just shared my reflection on it. I'm definitely not a scientism guy who doesn't believe in miracles.

@Thugnificent99

Жыл бұрын

No

@oktayakbas4904

Жыл бұрын

@@Thugnificent99 an intellectual response.

@veerhihi

Жыл бұрын

There could be many explanations but none of it can be close to the reality, Allah also states that humans were created in stages and from soil like plants but the thing I will try to suggest you is to leave this matter of creation which is unreachable to us to the creator and focus on the laws and the things Allah commanded.

@TPO_onYT

Жыл бұрын

I think it would be helpful if you actually read the book mentioned in the video! Dr Shoaib lays out the islamic position really well

@Osama-Anwar

Жыл бұрын

@@TPO_onYT Are you referring to me? Because Dr. Shoaib is very clear on the fact that Adam A.S. didn't have parents.

While I can understand his good faith in trying to prove how sunni muslim belief is not problematic with a well defined contingency theory, it does not appear to be an achievable goal. A partially educated evolutionist will continue to force a well-informed Muslim confront cherry-picked ayats [e.g. Bakara 65-66 - we haven't yet figured out what is meant by it - is it evolution taking place in a fraction of a second, or Allah cc's divine choice to override contingency in the process). Besided all, how should we attribute, as Muslims, contingency to Allah's work.

Who wants to hear this guys life story ? NO ONE. 15 mins in, i switched off. Lol

@kaz4845

Жыл бұрын

Who wants to hear what you like or don't like? No one.. Lol

@abdulrahmanabouarkoub7792

Жыл бұрын

I did and enjoyed it. don't let the door hit you on the way out :)