"Did you have fun before you found out about the meta?" And every card game player cried

@xstreampunk7662

2 жыл бұрын

All games with build freedom cries.

@XVindicare

2 жыл бұрын

Hey, Warhammer player here... F.

@decilence6184

2 жыл бұрын

When i went against a meta 1 turn win deck in yugioh. Yeah i quit playing tournaments that day.

@harinarain09

2 жыл бұрын

@@decilence6184 yea that's mother yugioh for ya

@bleachwolfgaming2402

2 жыл бұрын

I used to play yu gi oh vs bots as a kid and I found out I could beat every opponent with a card that could attack an endless amount of times if I got the coin flip right. A coin flip. No skill involved. Just pure luck that determined the outcome of the game which in turn provided me absolutely 0 fun. The card was super cool tho.

I'm going to be honest. I watch josh because it's like watching a teacher, a villain and the critic of the movie at the same time I'm watching a livestream. I know that's the joke, he just does it so well

@stellviahohenheim

2 жыл бұрын

The education industry suffered a huge loss when Josh decided to become a youtuber

@doomoftheend

2 жыл бұрын

i watch him so my third monitor has something to display

@buildinasentry1046

2 жыл бұрын

@@doomoftheend Naw bro, cant leave that phone screen empty, Josh is the perfect fit

@kimrasmussen7188

2 жыл бұрын

my only complaint is the lack of hats. borsalino FTW

@balancebreaker1561

2 жыл бұрын

You got Josh to make you think and you got Asmongold to make you want to pull your hairs outta your skull

When I learnt that Josh was once a teacher, suddenly his way of speaking and explaining things made complete sense. I bet he was a good teacher.

@TheAntonio6579

2 жыл бұрын

But sometimes just because it sounds logically correct doesn't mean it's accurate or true.

@MetalCharlo

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheAntonio6579 When has Josh ever lied? lmfao

@jaysol1128

2 жыл бұрын

If he was a good teacher then his students would have said he was a good teacher. Word of mouth. Being articulate and sarcastic is not proof of being a good teacher quite the opposite

@AzzRushman

2 жыл бұрын

@@jaysol1128 I meant on how slow he tends to talk when trying to explain something. It gives time to the other party to imagine and find reasoning to what he's explaining without having to stop. Most times, when you are explaining something, you bring a ton of ideas and explanations to things we thought we knew but we didn't. Those learning then need half a second to lock the new knowledge into their own minds by finding reasoning behind it. Slow explanations like his ease this process and avoid having a bottleneck of information, which can make you get lost in the explanation.

@TheBeelzeboss

2 жыл бұрын

@@jaysol1128 I dont know if he was a good teacher but he is very, very good at explaining things.

Moral of the story: if you wanna have fun, be the one who makes the guides

@bleachwolfgaming2402

2 жыл бұрын

Being highly skilled at a game doesn't necessarily mean fun. Or does it?

@gamerdweebentertainment1616

2 жыл бұрын

why would I share my discoveries :)

@sokka4875

2 жыл бұрын

@@gamerdweebentertainment1616 just make the wrongest guides to ever wrong

@Septemberl4d

2 жыл бұрын

You guys act like the guide actually does all the work for you. You still need to not be a dim-wit and be able to pull off what is told. There are guides explaining how to do some of the hardest achievements for games and yet those achievements still have a 1% clear rate. A guide just gives you an idea, you still need to execute it.

@gamerdweebentertainment1616

2 жыл бұрын

@@Septemberl4d They sure sound like that, also you never know. Most cases still... Guide: do... Me: Well duh, wow I'm stupid... embarassing.

I love how Josh can literally pause every 2 seconds and then talk for 5 minutes about them. Other people would just abandon the joke after some time, but Josh will just do it for an hour straight, easy.

@TheFlyingslug

2 жыл бұрын

I like the part where one Josh says one thing and then the other Josh says the exact same thing.

Chat: "can we watch and react to it?" JSH: "... We can ..." Me, thinking at the 3 hours reactception: "... But should we?"

@SymbioteMullet

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. And dive into it harder. 6 hour reactceptionception.

@dakotashroom5401

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, if it's entertaining to you. If not than you don't have to watch.

@justinwhite2725

2 жыл бұрын

Now we need to react to the reaction...

I unironically like Josh Strife Hayes's reactions to things. He would overtake Asmongold if he decided to become one.

@xsnakeingrassx

2 жыл бұрын

I don't think he would though thank God because he sees how exploitive it is

@123Juniiorr

2 жыл бұрын

@@thefreshestdoug if you mean his lifestyle, i don't think he is pretending at all

@anthonysmith6413

2 жыл бұрын

@@thefreshestdoug This is the most "everything on the Internet is fake" answer I've ever seen. :D

@DedeJasindra

2 жыл бұрын

@@thefreshestdoug bad opinion, while his "reaction" contents are bad. the numbers say that he's far from not fun to watch

@miroslavzima8856

2 жыл бұрын

@@thefreshestdoug I don´t know why, but Asmon is plainly unwatchable for me. It´s weird, I don´t have any dislike towards him, watched him for a while - but probably it´s just not my type of style.

when i play a game i never look up guides unless i get actually stuck. i love exploring the game first. if i decide to do another run i can min max then

@kurosan0079

2 жыл бұрын

Same here. I try to avoid as much info as possible on the games I'm actually interested in. I wanna experience it with knowing as little about it as possible. Figuring stuff out is half the fun.

@lPsychoMax

2 жыл бұрын

this is exactly what I think guides should be: a last resort. Although one exception could be point and click games with stupid puzzles (you know the type) which you can try to solve, but eventually you'll need a guide because it's so crazy, they sometimes go against normal logical problem solving. Yeah the solution is obviously put a fork in the microwave so it would explode and you can go through a hole in the wall; totally a reasonable choice... >.>

@cr-nd8qh

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly

@zannynyx4297

2 жыл бұрын

@@lPsychoMax but you forgot to pick up the fork 4 hours ago in the progression didn't you ? Hence the game is blocking you from advancing

@TheAzureGhost

2 жыл бұрын

It kind of depends for me. I usually preffer to figure stuff out myself but there is stuff i look up in advance too. Mostly basic info that was not provided ingame. Like when a game does not tell you which stat affects what (Mhh i wanna be an Archer, gonna go for mainly for dexerty and some strengh to have a better pull on your bow, mhh why is my archery so bad? *checks wiki* Oh in this game your Ranged combat skill is based mainly on wisdom which was wrongly translated and was called perception in the original language) Or Ingame tooltips feel inaccurate/missleading/hard to understand. But looking up where to find specific stuff, beak certain bosses? only if i can't beat em after dozens of tries with breaks inbetween. I realized in the past that whenever i look up such stuff in a games Wiki or follow some guide/walkthrough , i get bored of that game pretty quickly.

The only reason I look up a guide is if I’m frustrated or stuck. Getting past a hurtle that makes the game not fun for me is relieving.

@Godzirra-San

2 жыл бұрын

The first time I came to a dragon claw door in skyrim I ran everywhere looking for some vague clue as to the order... When I guide on YT told me the answer was on the key itself I was both laughing and furious 😂😂

@notpointed

2 жыл бұрын

@@Godzirra-San It is a fundamental element of the human condition that sometimes we are absolute fudging morons and that's just a fact.

@Lectwar6

Жыл бұрын

@@Godzirra-San imagine how much time i spent on the first resident evil trying to find the key that all this time was on the back of that cursed book you find in the graveyard

One of the things I love about FFXIV Savage Raiding, there are some groups that specifically say "Blind Progression" as in "Let's figure this out together without guides." Those groups are fun!

@LinhNguyen-rn7hl

2 жыл бұрын

I can't find those anywhere on Crystal. Literally everyone is "Progging at X" and strats on description

@AnimatronicBadgerlord

2 жыл бұрын

@@LinhNguyen-rn7hl it tends to be for the first month or two, however i have seen a couple just starting out. They may not be blind prog groups at this phase though, but I did join them when the raid first released. It was a lot of fun.

@xbon1

Жыл бұрын

More fun to do eso dungeons blind because even the trash mobs can have big mechanics in eso as well as mechanics while running from boss to boss like in bloodroot forge. Also just look at a guide for final boss of fang lair, nothing else like eso dungeons

@teeswaga

4 ай бұрын

I unfortunately had to drop out of the raiding scene because so many groups in PF just kicked me and my partner out for not watching a guide. We then go to make our own PF for blind progression and no one joins it. We end up waiting forever just to get a couple of people and never getting to engage in the fight. We got kids, we can’t wait all day. It results in us just logging off and playing Roblox with the little ones.

@AnimatronicBadgerlord

4 ай бұрын

@@teeswaga I'm so sorry to hear that. I've had to drop out of Savage Raiding as well because I just don't have the time to learn it anymore... plus as much as I love it, it's stressful and I need to not be as stressed atm! I am glad you seem to have found something else that's just as fun, spending time with your kids > Everything else!

This really reminded me of the early days of gaming. My father had a toy-store and was one of the first in our country to sell the early gaming consoles. At some point we got a company as main importer & representant of Nintendo that was officially offering support for the german-speaking market. I remember kids of my age - regular customers - coming into the store exchanging tips & tricks about games - and even using our telephone to call the Nintendo hotline to get certain tips for games... Impressive how ~25 years changed that stuff.

51 minutes to react to 5 minutes of an 18 minutes video. Josh's reactions are on the next level. Can't wait for part 2, 3, and 4 of this reaction.

@lukezeiolf6977

Жыл бұрын

And then he can react to that series

@eagletgriff

Жыл бұрын

@@lukezeiolf6977 And then react to that video of that series

"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." - Soren Johnson KZread, Wikis, Guides, etc. are helping this happen faster.

@pseudonym8791

2 жыл бұрын

...and it’s like suddenly every troll is on speed dial...

@obviouslykaleb7998

2 жыл бұрын

@@pseudonym8791 i'm having a genuinely difficult time discerning the meaning of your comment. is it: 1: that the internet makes trolling much easier in the same way that the internet makes optimizing the fun out of a game faster, 2: that you think Thibault is a troll for some reason, or 3: is your comment just a genuine, drunken non sequitur? if it's 2, i'd have to ask "why do you think he's a troll," if it's 3, i'd say "go to bed you're drunk."

@dakotashroom5401

2 жыл бұрын

@@pseudonym8791 I honestly can't agree more. There's nothing worse than the enjoyment of something being drained from entertainment. A person just wants to play the game they spend time and money on. But someone else desires to ruin that experience indirectly and directly for no reason! What's the point of associating with anyone when they can't learn to keep their mouth shut? If there's a "most efficient way to play" than it's the fault of the game designers. Players shouldn't be punished for wanting to play the game!

@iller3

2 жыл бұрын

such a strange game. ...the only way to win is not to play

@dakotashroom5401

2 жыл бұрын

@@iller3 The only way to win is to play by yourself. Then you don't have to worry about most of the nonsense the bad players are doing. Players just want to play the game. But, when they don't reinforce good behavior and punish bad behavior than players will just do bad things.

Here's a thought: Learning and Discovering is fun while you're making progress. Taking the shortcut ruins that. Mastering something takes lots of experimentation and collaboration. It's not a shortcut to supplement that with ... let's call it teamwork. I've more and more gotten to this way of playing: Never look anything up early game. Inform yourself when it comes to mastery.

@adam.maqavoy

2 жыл бұрын

Yuup same. I rarely look up Game trailers or Movie trailers. Why? Cause I dont wanna know everything before the Game or said Movie is Released.

@pete5516

2 жыл бұрын

I think lot of people see looking at guides as a kind of collaboration with other players, the perception of teamwork has been so skewed that it’s now no longer ‘figure it out together’ it’s more like ‘you better have done the prerequisite research or other members of your raid/dungeon etc. will flame you’

@Axetwin

2 жыл бұрын

Everyone learns differently. This idea that masters of a trade or craft are 100% self taught is total crap. They were taught by another person. They had someone else telling them what they're doing right and what they're doing wrong. They didn't figure it out by themselves.

@pete5516

2 жыл бұрын

@@Axetwin good point, but I don’t think that comparing video games with something that can take decades to master is really a good comparison. It only applies to super competitive games in which case yeah you should be looking up guides or you’re kind of trolling

@Axetwin

2 жыл бұрын

@@pete5516 Personally, i don't think so either. However, there are others that take video games way too seriously, and actually think "mastering" a video game takes the same amount of time and effort a real job does.

I used to play MMOs, but at one point I realised that it felt like what I assume assembly line factory work feels like. I was having fun talking with the people I played with.. but the process of actually playing it was depressing, as there was no room for failure and no room for something that wasn’t planned. That all happened towards the end on Wrath of the Lich King, and I haven’t touched a MMO since.

@bradreee7290

2 жыл бұрын

If that's the case and you still like the idea of bumbling about with your fellow morons final fantasy has been great I've tanked every dungeon blind and never once gotten criticized for it. I'm 850hrs in

As much as this is satirical, this makes me feel like I’m sitting in a classroom again. The teacher side of Josh really shows when he asks us “what do you think this means?”

Josh reactions are like getting DLC, and it turns out to be longer than the original game.

ALSO a Paradox. I will claim that some game-designers make boss encounters "harder" today because they assume that 90% of all raiders will have read/watched a guide about how to do that boss... And in making them harder, they make it so that some people feel they need to find info outside the game to have a chance

@GeorgeMonet

2 жыл бұрын

Not "feel they need to" but ACTUALLY DO NEED TO. Bosses are way too much bullshit cheating nonsense instead of being a real fight between equals. You never "fight" a boss, you just run around like a headless chicken avoiding the fire on the floor until the boss dies from exhaustion. Never once is the boss worried about what you can do it, never once do any of your attacks have any visible affect on the boss. Your sword swings never hit back the bosses attacks, your spells never CC the boss. You take 60% hp damage per hit from the boss but you only deal 0.01% per hit to the boss. It just doesn't work. The current paradigm for boss fights needs to be completely thrown out and rethought to be more like a PvP fight between equals and less like being tested on choreography.

@dakotashroom5401

2 жыл бұрын

I find the excessive artificial difficulty of bosses to be quite tiring. I thought it was supposed to be a challenge not a trial and error memory battle.

@justinwhite2725

2 жыл бұрын

@@dakotashroom5401one of the new bosses in path of exile is literally a memory battle. You basically play Simon a few times during the Maven fight. Certain portions light up in order and you have to go to them in that order to not die.

@Toliman.

2 жыл бұрын

Boss Mechanics are very much scaled based on the typical player mindset, but also on the concept of Performance versus Skill, Especially because training players is the conceptual focus of a Raid encounter, that's what makes it a social experience beyond the "Meta" of competition and success/dopamine enforcement and reinforcement. If it's an individual challenge, then you can introduce Skill or reinforcement/repetition ie dodging/timing. When you coach players to act as a cohort/team, then you have distinctive 'goals' for a Raid/Boss mechanic that are either individual, group, or challenge based variations. And when people say Skill, that's kind of an empty proposal. Boss encounters are designed to be challenges that groups of players attempt and succeed at. Skill should not be the variable to get that success and reward, because Skill on the individual level can't be benchmarked for. It opens up the possibility of exploitation rather than social cohesion, where the "best" or MVP player gets the best reward while the other 24 have to support that tyrant/MVP. Or the abilities of the group can exploit or expose a flawed dungeon challenge/mindset and now you have 18 Death Knights in a 25 person group, or 4 tanks and 4 priests to pull the tanks out of position instead, 25 druids with moonfire, chaining ranged interrupts to stop the 5 second "DOOM" explosion at the end so you can beat the baked-in DPS race, where you have to kill or destroy something in that 2 to 5 second window of time, or the encounter is reset or you all die and have to do it over again. If you set the encounter to win if you can dodge all kinds of damage, then you are going to run into exploitation, not skill. If your Challenge relies on an individual ability or expertise-based strategy that can be gained without information, i.e. Luck/Critical Damage can be referenced as "Skill", because you're putting the emphasis on unique ability rather than any particular replication. Then the encounter will likely be "Cheesed" or an exploit will be used to create a safe and replicatable method. Sometimes that's the intent of the encounter, and sometimes it is not intended, and the game "races" to find what the players will do, before erasing that unintended solution and punishing players for the infringement. Which is why Boss encounters rarely rely on Skill alone, i.e. One Player doing their best, and rely on half of the raid doing the right thing. Once you introduce a skill challenge for all players, then you introduce a different variable, Performance. Performance, can be rehearsed and gained across a social group encounter to train a cohort of players. This is why you have a sliding scale between "target dummy" fights where the boss only targets a Tank and hits harder, or phase fights where the Boss swaps targets or creates obstacles, and creates the need for learned performance and learned strategy. If you focus the fight on Skill, that becomes a fight that trains you to fail, unless you have a lucky encounter or a lucky strategy that defines success instead of a strategy. Your chance of success is not reliable if it's a Skill based encounter.

@gordo6908

2 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgeMonet sounds like an endgame problem

I was not prepared for this sequel/a new entry into "Josh reacts" series; time to gather my snacks & watch this on 0.25x

I like guides. I use them for the most frustrating or poorly explained parts of a game. I won't use it if the content is good and makes me want to explore on my own.

I like playing games like Path of Exile but I dont like that the devs skimp out on putting in details, or even correct language, because they believe that players will just look everything up. I think this is a cop out and its just flat out lazy on the part of the devs, the idea is supposed to be that you create something that I need to figure out but you as a dev provide me the player with the info or tools I need. for Path of Exile the game doesnt even calculate its own math correctly so you need to have a seperate app...this needs to stop.

@TuffMelon

2 жыл бұрын

Kinda like Tarkov, where they don't bother putting proper information about the different bullets because they just wont, but our character is meant to be a PMC that would be familiar with this ammo, and we can just look up the wiki to see the info anyway. Feels like them being deliberately obtuse more than 'not handholding' or some shit they'd probably say.

@bradenculver7457

2 жыл бұрын

It’s one of my biggest peeves about things like souls game. We have to put in a lot of time trying to figure out how obscure things work, every new game the community has to figure out how poise works in the game because from just won’t tell us. I get some vagueness in certain mechanics, but the esotericism on things like poise has always annoyed me.

@sindri1447

2 жыл бұрын

PoE is also just way too convoluted in it's progression. Most people are gonna take one look at the talent tree, instantly figure out that they need to either use spreadsheets OR religiously follow guides to be even close to optimal, and they're going to uninstall. That's what most gamers are gonna do because that does not sound like a good time.

@Ribyum

2 жыл бұрын

@@bradenculver7457 For me it's when it's about figuring out which stats I should put points in and how many is too little or too much depending on my playstyle. It just then generates the fear of potentially fucking up your build without knowing and get stuck in your progression because of that. Since you have 0 ways of resetting those stats other than just restarting a new character, then it just sucks up big time because it keeps you from experimenting and then forces you to look up metas to be even remotely strong enough to push through content without heading into a wall after a while.

@TuffMelon

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ribyum I mean, the answer is to not try to make a build the first time going through the game. That's entirely on you. You place stats based upon what you need, it's that simple. You can't fuck it up that way. The games can be completed no-hit without even levelling up so stats are entirely bonuses, not necessary to even remotely min/max them.

22:45 Oh damn yes. Going through my old stuff a couple years ago, I found a filled out ring binder, hundreds of pages with information and IVs on every pokemon in Ruby. I had completely forgotten about it, that once upon a time I went minmax ballistic in a single player game. Had me feeling kinda like that old guy in Amélie when he finds his ancient toys lol.

You know, I found the conversation about what part of life to be efficiant on to be incredibly enlightening and helpful to my current situation. Im in the middle of a "Mental Health Gaming and Streaming" break. I realized I wasnt enjoying gaming anymore and thus found it hard to motivate myself to play a game and to stream. But now after this conversation i look around the house and realize all my energy was put into figuring out how to play better how to stream better and things around the house have fallen by the wayside. I dont even eat half the time because im just to stuck in my head about how well im doing in the games that i forget or dont notice im hungry. Only thing not suffering in this house is the pets but their loud and get my attention lol. To clarify my break isnt just to get my motivation. I do also deal with depression and other issues that i need to get back under control as well. Also Its not only lack of motivation to stream games its lack of motivation and fun in the games i have and did enjoy.

josh, thank you for bringing back the mrbtongue style video with your short talk videos. Also i love your elden ring comparison , the souls games i specificly avoid all information before and during play, and only start searching for secret area info etc. when im at the end

I can't even imagine how sad I'd be if I played Elden Ring with guides. I'd pay millions to someone just to brainwash me and make me forget everything just so I can play It again normally.

@thorinhannahs4614

2 жыл бұрын

Hollow Knight is that game for me.

@CB-lw7ty

2 жыл бұрын

If you want a response from someone who used a text guide for where to go, point to point, to make getting the platinum easier and quicker...using a guide actually shows you how un-special the game is in reality, (still a very good game obviously) because you see the game with more of a functional mindset than just an emotional "im here for the ride one".

@jimjam9387

2 жыл бұрын

That’s how I feel about Dark Souls 1 can definitely relate.

@thechugg4372

2 жыл бұрын

@@CB-lw7ty Is this because the game is "un-special" or only the way you're playing it though.

@CB-lw7ty

2 жыл бұрын

@@thechugg4372 Both, the way I played leads it to be un-special because I removed alot of the elements people will consider fun "exploration" being a major component to most peoples argument, but ultimately its un-special in terms of design and gameplay as well (although most modern day open world RPGs are un-special in reality). If you look at what you ultimately have and do in Elden Ring...Lots of customization with your character build, open world on a huge scale, lots of variety in biomes, different methods of traversal, main quest, side quests with their own character arcs, mini dungeons, boss arena's, patrolling enemies in the world, castle areas to clear etc...Now take a game like Arkham City which is a PS3 game so we're 2 consoles decades ahead of Arkham City and yet...Open world on a big scale (for the time), variety in biomes, different methods of traversal, main quests, sides quests with own character arcs, mini dungeons that were fights or puzzles, boss arenas, patrolling enemies in the world, hideout area's to clear etc, 2 console generations removed and you're essentially still playing the exact same open world RPGs you were playing 15 years ago with a new shiny skin and bigger area to play in. Let alone if you go into what makes Elden Ring any more special than any other FromSoft game...well its open world, the rest? You've seen before in Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Demons Souls, Sekiro etc. As I said that doesn't change that its a very good game, a very good open world RPG and is in reality an amalgamation of everything people like, want and expect in an open world RPG put into 1 complete and polished experience...but you can't say its special when it has nothing different to any other open world RPG from the last 15 years and nothing different to any other FromSoft game except being open world.

1300 hours of factorio. The enjoyment for me was figuring out the optimum solutions for all the manufacturing processes. Along the way I wrote one steam guide about compact designs and now the game is 'solved' for me, so I moved on. I'm left with couple notepads filled with design calculations and fond memories. Other games such as WoW I read guides just enough to know what stats are best for my character according to the maths so guildmates don't make fun of me. We do heroic level raids and +15 to +20 dungeons and have fun completing the group challenges. For games like gta or far cry it's all about the fun.

There’s a video essay I’ve seen on KZread called “Why it’s rude to suck at Warcraft” that basically hits the same topic you were going over, about how the meta knowledge enforced by the community has made inefficient gameplay a social faux-pa. It’s a good watch

Getting older and having less time does not change the fact that knowing everything without trying isnt fun.

This is the new meta of react and it was brilliant 👏. Not only did he react he broke it all down and made me understand the subject 10x more than i would have had i only watched the original video. Well done josh 👏

25:25 I would say it's because games are designed for us to win and succeed, so it takes the risk out of the equation. In life nothing is as certain as that and if we put in the same effort the same level of great results are not guaranteed, so for fear of failing we just don't risk it. Those who don't fear it tends to be ostracised for not settling and for trying a bunch of things and failing and because of that they are named as a failed person with a bad life or something to that effect.

What i love the most about people's reaction to other's people videos, is when the original creator reacts to the person reacting to him or her.... So i can't wait for Josh Strife Hayes, reacting to Josh Strife Hayes reacting to him...

The factorio chat noise is my text tone. I'm glad you muted in the background, it got me already lmao

This is the exact reason I refuse to look things up unless I'm truly stuck, I've always noticed I get more enjoyment out of it. My best friend is a person that loves idle games and looks up their META before even playing them sometimes. And while he enjoys that efficiency, I don't, I love figuring things out. Can be a bit frustrating sometimes.

I prefer going in blind until I have exhausted all other options, then I might look something up so I can continue playing instead of getting stuck and putting the game down. Applies mainly to single player games. Also sadly likely to look up meta builds when it comes to MMOs, but will only play meta stuff if they are fun. Perfectly fine with being suboptimal if the gameplay is more engaging, WoW covenant abilities being a good example. If you're bored but doing sick dps, your party will love you but you'll eventually want to log off prematurely

@anname7373

2 жыл бұрын

yeah I don't look up guides unless I'm confused and getting frustrated. If I can get it the first time without a guide, good, I won't use one. I do most things myself

@tharobiiceii

2 жыл бұрын

As far as meta builds go for MMOs and such. I usually use them as a starting point, and then make adjustments to things I find more fun. Suboptimal? Sure, but honestly not by that much. You don't need 100% of your class's potential to be successful. Often times I learn about combos and interactions from meta guides that I would have never found otherwise. So I feel like mixing that with some changes that I find more enjoyable makes for a good balance of fun and effectiveness.

This reminded me of an episode from the Pure Pwnage TV series, not the web series. Where they want to play Rock Band and perform at a Lan party and everyone is having fun and playing not efficiently for the high score. It makes Jeremy mad and he makes everyone play their instrument in a way to achieve the highest score and no one has fun playing his way.

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

That is a certified vintage internet reference and I tip my headscarf to you.

I'm sad I missed this stream, but I'm so glad I got to see it!

I stopped with one of my closest friends cause all he ever did was look up guides. Even if it was a brand new game that had suspense and tension around the corner, he would just spew out "blah blah is coming up, i just saw a guide", literally watching guides as we're playing for the first time

the ironic thing is that i just heard the statement he said about if we were having more fun before we knew the meta and I can confidently say absolutely. I've been playing ESO since Beta and i played it way more excitedly before I learned about endgame meta builds and started trying to cater to those builds. As of last year I came to the realization that I was no longer having fun or enjoying the content being added because I was too focused on the numbers and I decided to change. I kept a build saved for those hard endgame dungeons that mostly require meta builds but my general play I use a build that I just call my fun time. I play with gear and skills that I didnt use before and try out new things just because I want to instead of catering to the numbers game. I use a stamina based pet on my sorcerer when my primary stat is magic, why? because I like how the pet looks, it tanks for me, and heals me. I even worked this pet into the personal story I created for my sorcerer. ESO is now far more fun for me to return to when I realize Im playing for me, not other people.

Holocrons in Star Wars: Galaxies... That was the game literally telling you "hey, This class you're currently playing for the love of it, is wrong. You need to play THIS OTHER class in order to unlock Jedi." All the best armor- and weaponsmiths, and other artisans just disappeared the moment Holocrons were introduced.

I still remember being stuck in DK Country 3 with my friend with no access to internet to check a guide after checking everything thrice and not being able to advance for many weekends, I started going circles around some rocks out of frustration, which made a volcano burst out from the seas, finally, revealing the last series of levels my buddy and I screamed and celebrated for 2 minutes straight :D now, I'm not saying that I would be willing to give up the convenience of being able to look stuff up online, but me feels there's a reason why both of us still able to recall that one moment so vividly and not any other :P

I can't wait to see Josh's reaction to this video. The reaction cycle must never end.

@hummingbirdcity

10 ай бұрын

With like 8 PIPs in a few years.

I have a confession. I bought the Quarry on x box and I just couldn't help but check out the guide how to keep all the characters alive. Whilst I was doing this I actually did spare a moment and think to myself about how its kinda low key cheating. I felt kinda bad for doing it but i could not resist the temptation to know. please forgive me for being a weak and lazy person.

@Plainsburner

2 жыл бұрын

For games like that I usually play through it once, then I go back with a guide to try to optimize it if I think it would be worth trying.

Interesting conversation. I think the abundance of video walk throughs and meta analysis does take away some fun for me but at the same time I sometimes straight up need a guide to figure out parts of games.

I love the list of supporter names. Im so glad we convinced you to keep doing it XD

The short answer is, no. Guides for every game have always existed, this isn't a new thing, nor is it something that only came about with the age of the internet. Secondly, noone is forcing you to use a guide. If you enjoy the discovery, and enjoy figuring things out for yourself, that still exists. It hasn't been taken away from you. There is no one right way to play a game, and I'm getting tired of people trying to assert otherwise. Literally just last night I was in a stream where someone said "back in my day you couldn't just look anything up so you either had to figure it out on your own or you stopped playing". I had to point out that this was never the case because before the internet, we had magazines to read. Guides that held your hand through every part of the game, that came with cheat codes and boss strategies. Even if you didn't have a subscription yourself, even if you didn't have a friend who had a subscription you could stand in the magazine section in any grocery store and read the magazines there. You could go to your local library and find back issues of gaming magazines there. The information has ALWAYS been there, it just wasn't at readily available at your fingertips like it is now. Again, no. This is people feeling a certain way, then trying to tell people they're wrong for feeling differently. If you had more fun back in the day when you didn't know what you were doing, great. But don't stand there and try to tell me I had more fun too. I'm 42 years old and I have more fun playing video games today than I did when I was 16. Why? Because I actually know what I'm doing now. This in itself cannot be ignored. People grow up, and the level of knowledge they accumulate on a topic increases the longer they stick with it. I read a lot, I watch a lot of movies/tv shows, I play a lot of story heavy video games. Narratively it is very difficult to surprise me not because "everything to day is dumbed down (which, it kind of is, but that's besides the point)" but because there's only so many unique narrative beats you can hit before you start doing things that have been done before. Does this mean I've stopped reading? Of course not, because it's something I enjoy doing. Video games are no different. You grow up and video games surprise you less because they all tend to hit the same beats.

@benvictim

2 жыл бұрын

" I had to point out that this was never the case because before the internet, we had magazines to read. " You might have messed the part where he talks about how it was about the ease of access of said information. He literally said your last line of "The information has ALWAYS been there, it just wasn't at readily available at your fingertips like it is now. ". Majority of those growing up in the 90s and 00s didn't have access to that information. One reason why so many urban legends of gaming comes from those eras. He also literally said that you're valid if you like reading guides and having access to information. "It hasn't been taken away from you. " Again if you watched the video, you realize he's talking mainly about MMOs and online games. Where there is a pressure that exists to play "meta" to play the best builds, to look at guides. The pressure varies from game to game. In a very toxic community like WoW, the pressure is great. In others, it is nearly non-existent.

@Axetwin

2 жыл бұрын

@@benvictim True, however some of this stuff cannot be overstated because of how often the opposite gets parroted by the community. Plus, Josh DOES lean towards 'yes, internet guides have ruined gaming.

@gytux0258

2 жыл бұрын

Guides now are far more complete and easier to access. And while no one is forcing you to follow a guide in a single player game. You will often not have such a luxury in any game that requires you to cooperate with other players.

@GeorgeMonet

2 жыл бұрын

@@gytux0258 That is because those games are competitive and competition is toxic. The problem isn't the existence of guides but the game being competitive. Social pressure makes social settings suck ass. That is true in real life too.

@gytux0258

2 жыл бұрын

@@GeorgeMonet competition is toxic? Maybe you have never competed in good faith then

I played WoW a few years back after my mom got me into it. I played a Dwarf Hunter after noticing the Human Warrior style wasnt for me And I just casually played it and had lots of fun. I literally went into low tier dungeons, horde or alliance, didnt matter which. I just collected random gear from instances that I was too high a level of and I had fun.

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

"No you're playing wrong you're supposed to speedrun/boost to max level then raid/boost to best gear to then quit the game faster"

23:52 my absolute favorite thing is to play suboptimally. Its not fun in every game. But a lot of the time "optimal" has a lot of assumptions to it that restrict what you and your allies can do. Also because of the widespread knowledge on what is "best" i often find it fun to play off meta because players dont know what to do with it and it feels new. Especially in PvP games. Playing on a mid-high level it can sometimes even be an advantage to play something unusual. When i tried vanilla wow i specifically played a paladin tank, because warrior tanks were the "best". The most memorable moment, was running an early dungeon, and having my warlock tell me, hes having fun because he never gets to use his AoE spell in dungeons. And the reason for that, if i remember right, was that as a paladin i had access to tools that allowed me to pull a lot of enemies in a wide area. The game was more fun, because my choice of play allowed for a new way of playing for another player.

@gytux0258

2 жыл бұрын

Basicly dont be afraid of trying something that you "aren't supposed to"

This is an interesting topic. It's reminds me of a company that hires for a position, someone with the appropriate skill set applies for the job but the employer says 'sorry you dont have enough experience' to someone just out of school looking to work. I think it's just about winning as fast as possible so they can be 'done'. Everyone wants to be the guy who's admired for being good at the game and having the best gear sitting in town all day like a statue and getting inspected.

As i grew older, i became more and more a gamer that yearned to play in the most optimal way to the point of prefering games that have achievements, so i have a "check list" i can fill out. As i realized that i didnt really play games for the enjoyment anymore, i decided to try to approach games more the way i did when i was younger, but it's kinda hard.

Yeah, this has been on my mind recently... I've been playing Elden Ring, which, while clearly a good game, is really designed with the idea that the player will always have a guide available in mind. The structure of most of the quests is that you find an NPC, they say something vague about an object or person they are looking for, and then you are supposed to find said item or person and then you will encounter the NPC again at some unknown site of grace, presumably. There is usually no way whatsoever to know when and where to meet this NPC again, and in my attempt to play through the game with no guide, as I prefer to do on my first playthrough of any game, I ended up missing several questlines and botching several others by progressing too far (the quests are very finicky and buggy like this). For example, even if you find the tree where Boc is in Limgrave, how will you know that he then moves to lake facing cliffs, then to East raya lucaria gate, etc.? All of the quest lines operate this way. So I've ended up playing it with the wiki open in a second screen, and it sucked much of the fun away. I feel like i am just going through the motions reading walkthroughs, but this is what the game actively encourages. It's not just the quests, either. The game lacks the (pretty standard) spell that reveals enemy info and weaknesses, meaning that the only ways to find out a given enemy's weaknesses are trial and error, and looking it up on the wiki. I find this trend to be absolutely insufferable personally. You should be able give the player enough info to figure things out on their own, without making it overly easy, like a Ubisoft checkpoint-walking simulator. Older games nailed this, for example I played Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 last year for the first time, with no guide, and was able to find almost all quests and NPCs despite the lack of checkpoints and general handholding. Unfortunately, it seems like a forgotten skill these days, even in the best of games.

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

Really get the impression a ton of games made in the 2010s are designed around having a Wiki open non stop referencing. Majority of Dark Souls players likely used them, then claimed they didn't, you'd waste or miss so much. Minecraft was entirely unplayable without a wiki on craft lists before they added that to the game. Loads of simple survival indie games with 0 explanation or guidance of anything, completely unplayable without wiki. It's pretty blatant but nobody admits it.

It's fun to joke about you reacting to yourself, because who else other than Josh Strife Hayes....but I seriously love them. Taking your older videos and expanding on them like this adds a lot to already very informative videos. You can say everything you couldn't fit into the videos. Definitely keep these up!

22:55 I remember having a sheet of codes, we looked them up though, never tried to brute force them though. Instead we just tried to learn the codes we used often

I'd say no, or at least "it depends". Most recent game I used guides on was Monster Rancher 1&2DX. Boy howdy did that increase my enjoyment of the game. I'd've had no idea that monsters could live so long without them. Plus guides helped me pinpoint how to unlock monster species, and show me which "CD" allowed me to generate a specific monster I wanted from the shrine, without constantly rerolling. Though the opposite holds true in different situations. I played FF XII and there were postgame areas that had a sort of disruption effect on your in-game map. I ended up drawing my own map, making marks and notes on paper for it. That's because I enjoyed the experience of figuring that out myself. But even then, my notes couldn't have been perfect without massive repetition. This was due to RNG treasure placement and treasure content. It compounded to create a situation of "why do this manually? 99% of the time the 'treasure' was rust and 50% of the time the treasure might not have spawned anyways." So I did both, I explored manually, but still consulted a guide after that experience stopped being satisfying. I got to experience more of the game I wanted to, without getting worn down with the stuff I didn't want to deal with.

Im so glad i never got sucked into the efficiency trap. Sure things take me a little longer than efficient players but I enjoy every moment of my gameplay

Reacting to old videos is pretty ingenious and I hope he reacts to his old most popular videos to get that double dip, and for the commentary track.

a 50 minute clip on the John Strife Says channel?? oooh, what a treat!

I believe when one is more of an objective oriented player like I am, it's only fair to desire achieving those objectives efficiently, I believe. It's only frustrating being inefficent when you actually care about getting shit done. Otherwise, if you don't care so much about it, then it's simply not. Both sides are fun in their right contexts, depending on what the game is about. Although, one exception regarding pure frustration is when games punishes the player for messing up their build, by locking them into it and disabling stats/talent tree resets to keep them from experimenting and learn their mistakes along the way, but instead force them to restart their journey over and over when they do things wrong.

@Iamwhoiamifiammyself

2 жыл бұрын

But what do the objectives really mean if you're only following a guide? Who are they for? Your own ego? If so than why can't you do them yourself but you need a guide? To appear capable but not be? It's like chasing all As in school by cheating... while the point of school is obviously not to score but to learn. Or in famous DJ Khalid words : "Congratulations, you played yourself"

@Ribyum

2 жыл бұрын

@@Iamwhoiamifiammyself You missed my point. Some people want to avoid unecessary struggle. It's not about necessarily "cheating" with a walkthrough, but rather with an instruction manuel to at least know how to go about things the right way, and then let themselves play freely with that knowledge. I like getting to know and understand a game's system beforehand before I fully dive into it. Look at Path of Exile. You sure aren't going to get far if you don't *at least* understand how the build system works, since it's a very complex and in-depth one. Very easy to fuck up a couple first characters.

@Iamwhoiamifiammyself

2 жыл бұрын

@@Ribyum PoE is a bad example because it's literally a Player vs Developers game (they said so themselves), so it relies on people following guides (which is also the part I dislike but whatever). Most games aren't tho (wow, DS etc...) and people still use guides and then complain how easy the games are, while the intended experience is a blind run.

Second monitor: "you're playing wrong, go get agility and graceful set" First monitor: "Grinding agility Canifis Course"

@cancerino666

2 жыл бұрын

I refuse to use graceful. Its such a boring look.

I remember in Asheron's Call you could write in actual books that took up a slot in your inventory. I carried one around that had all my instructions, portal routes, where to find certain things, and it was glorious.

There are situations where thanks to more info about the making of a show or film my enjoyment has increased -- say, Captain Disillusion's look at Flight of the Navigator. Many of the arguments you bring up seem to come down to a difference in preferences; you seem to really enjoy a lot of the "process" stuff that I don't find nearly as fun. I enjoy researching outside the game to learn the steps needed to (for example) run a particular raid, and I enjoy doing my best to execute those steps, and I like practicing and improving on my implementation of those steps. But I do often go into new games (not necessarily mmos) without looking up info and give things a go on my own before seeking out guides and tips and whatnot. But there almost inevitably comes a point when my frustration at a given aspect of the game sends me toward a guide, and I have no problem with following the same general outline I mentioned before -- find out the info externally, and the fun for me comes from implementing and practicing that implementation.

i'll add that knowing and/or using the meta in a game doesn't always make it less fun, but the only times this is true is when the meta is not a requirement to succeed. i play a lot of Borderlands 2, but i don't play the OverPowered levels at the end of the game because by the final OP level the game boils down to only using meta or best in slot equipment. the OP levels require meta, but they're also pretty much optional so i instead play at the maximum standard level which still restricts some of your gear choices, but you don't have to resort to only using the definitive meta weapons either. this flips on its head in more competitive titles where if you want to do well in, say, a hero shooter, you gotta know how to make good team comps, what parts of your build to take and not to take yadda yadda. or more topically in MMOs when teammates in whatever raid get mad at you for not bringing Zelorth's Staff of Chaos+3 and a full set of Avatorn's Lost Armor +3 with all the correct skill allocations or whatever, despite the fact that the group will be fine with the equipment and build you brought. point is, good game balance somewhat counters the meta, though the more factors to balance and the more mechanics that interact the harder it is to balance and the more likely some sort of meta interaction will be discovered and utilized to optimize the fun out of the game, and poor game balance (like the OP levels in Borderlands 2) can actually force using the meta to even play which is awful. and this is, well, not really a counterpoint to anything said in the video, just more my take on the discussion than anything.

@hayato1886

2 жыл бұрын

Op8 was fine, you could still use jank and really fun builds. Op10 destroyed that and is completely miserable to play, even on Sal or Krieg who are pretty much the only viable characters for op10 if you want to take down any of the raid bosses

As a lost ark player, whenever Josh mentions what the persuit of effincency and the availability of guides takes away from the experience, I think to myself "yeah, that's lost ark". And I can't break out of this circle since i am quite behind the curve of most players. My main character plays with the forth, fifth or sixth alt character of everybody else, or so it looks to me. By the time I reach a new stage of content, everybody else has done it a hundret times already and expects me to have that same knowledge in the raid. Most times you get instantly kicked from raids when you answer the question "have you at least watched guide?" with "no". There are blind runs when new endgame content is released. But by the time i get there later there is no more blind runs.

"I made a video about that, it's about 20 minutes" 51 minute clip. Genius.

The loss of time discussion is interesting, and particularly when talking about Dark Souls. It is probably why FromSoftware created such a brilliant system, as it actually creates a tension system between attempts that fail and attempts that succeed. If you are running from the bonfire to the boss, killing things along the way, you are getting souls, but you can't USE those souls if you want to attempt the boss. This creates the situation where you stack an increasing amount of souls in a boss room. You lose the time it took to get there, yes, but you technically haven't lost the exp progress *yet*. You might, if for whatever reason you can't reclaim your souls, but if you finally beat the boss, you are rewarded for the time spent making those attempts, stacking up souls on each of your seperate runs to the boss room. I'm pretty convinced this is part of why FromSoftware became so popular as a game developer, because it fixed a gameplay loop issue that most games have, but cannot fix in a satisfying manner. Bayonetta has a quick resume checkpoint system to waste less of your time, but it ends up feeling cheap, some games just throw you back to the nearest checkpoint and tells you to try again or grind up. FromSoftware found a way to encourage repeated attempts, because it means your reward just increases if you manage to repeatedly get to the boss and reclaim your souls. High risk, high reward, compared to most games with low risk (nothing but time lost on an attempt) no reward, because there is no carrot at the end encouraging you to keep trying despite failing, other than simply progressing.

@SponTen

2 жыл бұрын

That's a really good point about Dark Souls, and probably the best solution I've seen so far. Death has a penalty: It costs you time, and you still have to actually think when getting back to where you were up to. However, it also provides you with a bit of training, and you also accumulate souls for re-doing the "lost time" part, and then can also regain your souls if you make it back to the original point you died. I wonder how this could work in an MMO though. Personally, I don't like it when death has no cost because people end up just throwing themselves at content over and over til they succeed. At least in GW2, mobs will recover back to full health pretty quickly after not being in combat (eg. when they kill everyone), so you still have to fully complete the content instead of just doing like 1% of the mob's health and dying over and over til you win. I quite liked how in Diablo 1, you dropped all your items when you died. Super harsh penalty. However, that would never fly in modern games because it's possible to just outright brick your character and have to start all over again. I 100% understand that. But it was rewarding (imo) getting back to your corpse and reclaiming your gear. Perhaps more games should look into the Souls solution; time as punishment, but with a small stacking reward for finally defeating that difficult enemy.

Good to see you respected the original creator by linking the original video in the description.

Speaking of notes and such. I remember having an entire compendium of all the Diablo 2 runewords so I could note down which runes I would keep an eye out for on a given character I was playing. I probably still have it around in a binder somewhere. Anyway, I enjoy the discovery aspect. I felt it most recently in the End of Dragons expansion for Guild Wars 2. One of the maps has this mini dungeon with different puzzles. The first one is this weird sequence puzzle with levers. A couple of people in my guild just went "I'm just gonna wait for a guide to come out so I can do it" and I was devastated. I had so much sitting with my physical notepad and a pen trying to find out the correct sequence, and then later writing down all the information on the way that might be relevant to solving the puzzles. That was fun. I like early stages of online games, or even their expansions, because the new stuff hasn't been found out yet. I also don't mind the efficiency aspect of guides, but I try to avoid them until I'm actually stuck with no clue of what to do.

This feels like watching a movie with directors commentary

I remember the days when you had to pay money to get those fancy Prima’s Official Strategy Guides for games you had trouble solving. Encouraged a lot of problem solving in the players part by not wanting to purchase them. Since everyone and their mom can now profit on the needs of others - there’s guides for everything everywhere. Today? Internet makes people impatient with all the free and available information; and inevitably makes them obsessed with instant gratification. Guides ruin games as a whole, but developers also play a hand in not being more transparent about how they intend a game to be played.

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

Games magazines used to have guides and tip books in them, so much that people even bought back issues to get older magazine with the guide they wanted. Cheat devices like Game Shark/Genie were huge sellers as most players didn't want to seek guides for every game. Some of the biggest websites on the internet when it began were cheats and guides websites, GAMEFAQs being one of the biggest that survives to this day. Don't forget the Nintendo hotline and other similar premium scams. Basically guides have been around forever in one form or another, but internet just turbo charged it and now people can earn a payday creating them.

@Section.9

2 жыл бұрын

@@cattysplat 💯 %

What would you say if "failure" opens up another route of progression? Make "loss" a possible fact in your game and create paths to overcome the fact instead of undoing it

@SponTen

2 жыл бұрын

How would this work though? Could you give an example of a game that does (or somewhat-does) this?

Knowing I'm playing inefficiently, instantly ruins whatever fun I was having before I knew that. Trying to min-max everything after that is usually so unfun that I stop playing. Happens every time

You know this sounds absurd but I actually like this conceptually, watching and commenting on old content so that people get both the original information as well as any additional commentary/expansion/alterations that have happened since it came out. Good stuff.

Exploring and Efficiency are both acceptable play-styles. It's fine that people like to play how ever they want. Also, guides are great for learning how to deal with a situation you may be stuck on, teaching techniques you never thought of, and can be good for understanding the balance of a game.

The guides itself aren't a problem themselves since they've been around from he beginning. The accessibility makes it a lot bigger though

@exodore2000

2 жыл бұрын

Right I use to read Pac-man and Zork guides at book stores back in the 70's.

Back in times, when games came in boxes, and in the box was a manual with added blank pages for notes, or in some cases with a separate notebook in the style of the game ...

Your videos are great Josh, good job!

For me Final Fantasy 9 was pre information and Finfal Fantasy 10 is after, because with FFX my friend group discoverd strategy guides. I don't know if it is a result of people creating guides, but I think that "modern" games are being designed without the information about the mechanics present in the game. An example of this would be Path of Exile: The way resistances, penetration, gem tags (and many other things) work is nowhere in the game, but outside in wikis and videos. Pokemon's IVs and EVs are intentionally hidden from players. A lot of the time it's not even a question about playing efficiently. If you want to solve the puzzle, but games do not provide all the pieces necessary to solve it, you eventually have to look up a guide.

@justinwhite2725

2 жыл бұрын

That and the prima guide for FFIX was such a cop out and directed you to the website on every page. .. Why the hell did I buy this just to tell me to look online. And then after that everyone just started doing this and I imagine prima went out of business

eh, it takes a really really really well made game to make guides a bad thing because i don't have patience when something in a game doesn't make sense and is not intuitive and it costs me days of frustration and getting stuck or if a small decision leads to something that can't be undone and has massive ingame consequences so ya... most games have these issues and a guide allows me to get around that garbage and still enjoy the game experience mass effect was really well made, but definitely used guides and imho the guides made my experience better

you're reminding me of the actual king of the world, one time one of the healers in a Copied Factory I was in was a conjuror and like that person was living the dream of just not giving a damn. I don't know what their alliance was saying to them but over in ours we were just in awe

Kenshi is a game that is really interesting to explore. A lot of the places is empty or uninteresting. Some places seem really amazing at a distance... and when you come up to it, it actually is. Discovering things is fun. The fact that some places are just empty makes it more fun. You always know that it might be something over there, there might be nothing, but you go over there to discover it yourself. It makes for a good exploration experience, that was one of the best things with the game.

online guides and min-maxing just destroy the sense of discovery and make the world feel so much smaller back in 2005-2006 when I used to play World of Warcraft and it was my first MMO I used to see it as a real and massive world because I didn't know how big it really is and what you can do, as soon as you know all this it breaks the immersion, it's not an interesting culture where players are more obsessed with the destination and not the journey.

Tbh I think that not only have the mainstreaming of guides for games kinda ruined the exploration stage of stuff, but also taken away a lot of the social aspect of games. I still remember trying to figure out melzars maze in runescape back when i was like 12 or 13 (I'm 30 now) and meeting this guy, we figured it out together and became friends, I went to his wedding 2 years back. If i went through the exploration phase of runescape today, I'd be following a guide, maybe see a few other people that would be unlikely to reply because they also are following guides. I guess a lot of MMO players nowadays are still trying to chase that "glow"

I remember buying guides in the store along with the game in the 90s, lol. I also used guides in Nintendo power and gamefaqs. I am too young to have used them, but I do remember hearing about tips and tricks hotlines that existed in the 80s.

The moment he recited the jetpack cheat code from GTA: San Andrea's, some of the most nostalgic moment's I remember. truest gamer, the gamer we need, but don't deserve.

God, back in the day, I wish I had a guide for broken sword and that f***ing goat 'puzzle'. 2 weeks of my life I'll never get back. And 'solving' it did not feel like a good achievement. Personal preference here. I believe some Japanese games have a. 'story' mode difficulty. No real challenge, just enjoy the story, so there is a market for 'don't make me use my mind to play this'.

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

Those 90s adventure games were torture without a guide. Some of the lesser remembered ones were insanely illogical.

I do not appreciate when people literally tell me everything in a game, because they started earlier than me, nor only that but the fact of some who like to "speedrun" your experience to the endgame or to unlock stuff, just for the sake of it, because where they are is "better". In all of games I have played, meta ruined it, and mostly of the times if happened, people ruined my experience trying to apply these things I pointed out above. I really enjoy playing the game in a hardcore manner, I have fun being good and learning what I am playing, but in any way I want someone to give me all the answers and tell me what to do, unless the game is so bad that I need the community to teach me how to even walk. Example, Final Fantasy XIV became easier with the Raids, but people who complain about it, usually is waiting for day one guides, that people provide of course because it is indeed easier, for the hardcores, not for the people who get ALL the mechanics of the raid beforehand and know exactly what to do in the first run, no ones goes blind since day one nowadays, no one care to learn, they care to repeat what they see and replicate, not even trying to improve the strategy because "it is how it works".

@cattysplat

2 жыл бұрын

The saddest fact to this is, people finish the raid, get their loot, then they log off until next week/content patch because game is done. It's all selfish, nobody helping each other out, wanting to teach, willing to learn through failure. All so they can quit the game faster. Yet you are paying monthly subscription to do this? Just wild.

Hi Josh. I haven't watched your videos before, but I really like games and philosophy, so looks like you sir have earned my subscription.

I find that the problem is not so much in the creation of guides, but rather the lack of INTERESTING exploration in games. A lot of exploration aspects are simply not fun or not made in a way you can use your own logic to solve it. Other times the 'riddles' of exploration are made SO INSANELY EASY that it doesn't feel like you're exploring either, BUT RATHER READING AN IN-GAME GUIDE. For example, Lost ark has lots of collectibles to 'promote exploration'. One of them contains Mokoko seeds. I loved them at the start because I felt I could go over the map and find them. Most of them are in plain sight, some of them behind hidden passages that you can actually see if you look for them. Then I got stuck on a good bunch and found out that some seeds are locked behind un-fun tedious little tasks that you would never figure out by using your eyes or head to sniff out the collectibles. Example: Run into a regular wall at a random point and clip through it, walk beyond the map in a black void until you find the seed. Theres' no exploration fun in that. It's just 'running into the wall' at a specific point that you have to know beforehand because it's illogical. Another one, kill specific mob at specific place to temporarily be able to hit 'G' in a predetermined spot to jump over a log. ??????? Then there's the dungeon ones, I'd love if they put clues. There's a dungeon where you have to kill all enemies to get a seed, and not kill any of the prisoners to get another seed. Fine, great, I like that! But I'd like for you to be able to figure that out in the game. There's a gate that will open if you do NOT kill any prisoners. Otherwise it's locked. Make a sign/paper on the ground you can read or something that says 'prisoner belongings, secure tightly, theft is common with the prisoners' whatever, but something to indicate you have to most likely do something with the prisoners. Any hint at all. Exploration these days isn't made fun, it doesn't actually make you explore. Often you cant actually go in and solve something with the knowledge the game has given you. Often theres no room for trial and error. Often exploration aspects these days are locked behind tedious steps you could only know when you read a guide.

I spoiled locations in elden ring bit by bit using guides because the capital confused me af and thought it was really poorly designed and I spent 3 hours trying to get it done without a guide. I probably would have never finished the game without a guide. Does that mean that I ruined the fun and wonder? No, I just the guide to the extent that I wanted and enjoyed the rest of the discovery myself. Like, this isn't that complicated of a problem imo

I played a rapier wielding fighter in 3.5 taking all the dex mobility related feats, and it was a useless character that couldn't do anything. Making permanent character build choices that render you combat ineffective are not very fun at all.

Okay I'm hooked to the react video of your own video... Oh maybe a react video of your react video while reacting to your video that was reacted to.

Unfortunately the problem nowadays is, we have the guide before the game or content updates are released. Had a lot of fun in GW2, dungeons where chalenging etc. but after a few month everyone was doing the dungeons with 1 mesmer, rest warrior all in berserker armor and all standing in corners in boss fights. Finding players to do those dungeons "normally" and with different classes than the "meta" was unfortunatly really challanging at some point.

The answer to all those questions is a no from me. I don't think I enjoyed stuff more when I knew less about them. In fact in many cases the feeling is the opposite, mostly due to frustration of not knowing how to remedy something I'm doing wrong. I've long been of the opinion that if a movie/book/game is not enjoyable if you know everything about it. It isn't really enjoyable in the first place. What you enjoy in that case is the feeling of exploration itself, which you can just get from exploring any unknown. Sometimes fully knowing a game means you've solved it which means there is no point to playing it anymore since you know the optimal strategy already. In that case though, a game that can be fully solved isn't really interesting to begin with is it? Is tic tac toe interesting? If you know the optimal strategy I would argue that it is pointless, and I extend that same argument to any video game that also has that property. I guess you can think of it as a puzzle and solving that puzzle is the interesting part, but good puzzles can be re-played by most people since humans are imperfect beings. Games like tic tac toe just cease being interesting once you know the solution, and to me that just means they weren't interesting to begin with.

Every game now is a KZread binge watching and wiki surfing simulator lol

"I think the punishment for failure should be equal to the amount of time put in to the failure" 46:17 Okay, back to character creation every time you die.

Not even watching the video in 1080p, truly an amazing react

not really,you can always go blind without a guide,if people complaint about it then theyre ruining it themself,not the guide

@The_Yukki

2 жыл бұрын

That is true for single player games, or multiplayer games where your performance doesn't matter. If your perfomance impacts other players you're expected to perform or be replaced with someone who does perform, thus if you don't want to be replaced and don't figure out stuff on your own as fast as others do, you're more or less strongarmed into using a guide from people who did figure out stuff faster than you and are sharing the results. It is easy to say 'just don't use guides'. Just like it is easy to tell someone who's fat 'just eat less' (ofc they likely should but it's not easy, that's the point).

@RK-252

2 жыл бұрын

@@The_Yukki if guides didn't exist, teams would still drop the bad players. you would just be pressured into grinding random trial and error to improve, which is less efficient than reading it.

@TheRibbonRed

2 жыл бұрын

@@RK-252 except that high skill barrier in itself leads to less online teams dropping players. If incompetent team leads continuously drop players, they'd quickly be called on. With easy access to guides, any team can be tryhard wannabes & slap any "underperfoming" members with "look up guide". And this is all assuming it's a team problem. Not mentioning how non-meta players will often be killstolen in PvE or pwned in PvP by meta players.

@danang5

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheRibbonRed these kind of people will exist regardless of the existence of guide,if theres no guide they will blindly follow how the high ranking player play,and flame other people that doesnt play like them,and if theres no easy way to look for high ranking player stat,they will just blame you for everything if you seems to underperform

@TheRibbonRed

2 жыл бұрын

@@danang5 already addressed that. "If incompetent players drop others often, you can call them out on it." The problem is when you _clearly_ not playing the meta & costing the team's performance, with guides abound. They will block you for not following guides & playing the meta, which sounds a bit more reasonable than asking players to "play like top players". *Again, this is just the team aspect.* "Just don't read guides if you don't like them hurrdurr" fixes nothing; you're actively gimping out your own experience to explore minor aspect of the game that will inevitably lead to inefficient paths or even dead ends that are not the meta. *Meta plays themselves are the problem, and guides accelerate it.*

Y'know what? Guides don't ruin video games, *meta* ruins video games. I would probably still have fun if I saw a video which explained how things work. The problem is that most videos don't explain how things work, they explain what you do. And that takes all the fun of experimentation out of the game. Y'know what I'd like in card games? Anyone who obviously looked up a meta deck and just recreated gets put in a seperate pool together with everyone else who takes all the fun out of video games.

13:48 this. I almost avoid getting eso+ because I know without it, I won't be thrown into dlc dungeons, and that fear doesn't come from the dungeons themselves, but from the people you're grouped with randomly. So many people expect everyone to know how every mechanic works and how do too this and that, and what this means and that. I need to experience it first, man. I can't possibly expect anything that's coming up. I wish people would understand this when queuing for a completely random group

I think it does a little bit. Back when I was a kid, at least here where I live, was kinda hard to get the game that you wanted to play. I had a lot of fun with my friends going from store to store (sometimes places where you could rent games, just like blockbuster) in search for a game, and it was the same process when we wanted to look for tricks/guides. We had to look for a specific magazine or website (which was way harder to do than nowadays). I think the process to discover those things, to put your hands on a game, etc. was part of the fun. The last game I played completely blind was BotW, and it was an amazing experience. It really reminded me of those old days, where I walked through the Super Metroid, ALttP, and SNES Final Fantasy Games looking for secret walls, passages, special items... and then talk about it with your friends, teach them what you discovered, brag about it. For a few years I tought that what happened was just that I got older and kinda lost interest in some of those aspects of the games, but after my experience with BotW I really think that the easy access to guides ruined a little bit THAT ASPECT of gaming.

No they didn't. What they did is smoothing out developers fuck ups. I love exploring. Exploration phase can be fun. But if bad experience, I love the fact I can reach for guide to help me.