Both of those caps are so close in value that you could basically say that they are matched. 21.8 UF and 22.2 UF is as identical as you can hope for. That is only a .38 difference and that is miniscule.

@gil_evans

2 жыл бұрын

nF

@boshi9

Жыл бұрын

Yep, the deviation from the nominal value is within 1%. That's a really great result considering that these types of capacitors are typically rated to have a tolerance of +-10%. In fact 10% tolerance is what Mojotone advertises on their website for the Vitamin T capacitor that Kris was using in this video.

@qua7771

6 ай бұрын

A 25% difference wouldn't be very noticeable in terms of roll off frequency. There's a lot more to caps than capacitance if you look at white papers. You have ramp speed, ESR, inductance etc... Many techs ignore, or dismiss the other characteristics, thinking they know better. That's all I'm going to say, because I've learned debate is a waste of time.

@mark5150ty

6 ай бұрын

@@qua7771 I was only talking about the value I didn't say that there weren't other differences, no debate here because I actually agree with you. The entire conversation was only about value and nothing else so I never mentioned anything else.

@whyis45stillalive

6 күн бұрын

@@boshi9 No reputable dealer would sell a capacitor that is over +/- 5%, for guitar applications. There are different grades. Those for guitar are 2%, & 5%. If you buy, in bulk, from eBay, Amazon. etc., all bets are off.

If I printed out two identical images and asked people to make out differences between them as a part of a specific scientific test, everyone would tell me a bunch of different little things they undoubtedly noticed comparing the two. Same goes for taste or smell. There's even the old production music trick: after numerous revisions, send them back the exact same file a few days later and they'll tell you it's much better now.

@starchild692

11 ай бұрын

It's crazy what the "Placebo" effect can do to us no matter how experienced ones might be. Happned to me many times while mixing music, I would be tweaking some plugins and hearing "differences" just to realize the plugin was off the whole time and nothing has changed 😂 I learned to always second guess my senses, try things then give it a break and come back and repeat the process at different times.

@honigdachs.

11 ай бұрын

@@starchild692 That reminds me of an anecdote from my mixing and mastering lecturer back when I was in university. He and his partner had just bought a Manley Massive Passive unit and were going all crazy about it, playing with it all night, making all kinds of tests and discovering all this awesome stuff about it ... until they realized the track with the Manley was muted, they were listening to the other one that had something else on it. 😂That story became etched in my mind forever right there and then.

Dude, that’s one of the reasons why your channel is so cool! Keep up the awesome work!! Cheers! 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot André 🙌🙌 Well, not everyone seems to agree. But that’s alright. I’m not here to preach or anything. I just test interesting things and turn on a camera to share the experience. 😅

Great video and great comments below. Spent all my schooling and career in electronics. So I really enjoyed this! I am so glad I am a subscriber.

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it James! Thanks for the sub, see you in the next videos. Cheers!

Always a pleasure to watch your tech vids, Kris! I like when you dig deep 😉 Nice that you made this follow-up to make things clearer. On the other hand I'm not sure if the subtle tonal difference is enough to start tinkering with the caps for me... But I really enjoyed your melodic playing very much! Cheers.

Awesome 2 videos serie Kris and I think a lot of Luthier, Tech and guitar builders would thank you (or hate you xD) for doing these. When I was trained to become a Guitar Tech, we used a small box with 2 crocodile clips that would allow us to swap the capacitor while playing the guitar. It then became evident that the type of capacitor affected the sound of the guitar (even with the tone knob open !). The PIO cap were the more open and clearest sounding. An interesting fact too is that the wiring affects that a lot. The 50s wiring highlights this the most while with a modern wiring (with the cap to ground) the cap will make practically no difference. If you read this and want to chat that would be a pleasure :) Cheers

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Not sure if they thank me for all of this since these results might make more people interested in all these details. 😅 50‘s wiring is definitely my choice for the kind of tones I prefer. That being said, if I was playing a high gain amp, I probably wouldn’t care about caps and such because the amp‘s character and EQ filtering would „erase“ most of the subtleties of a capacitor swap etc. cheers!

Found this article about capacitors. "The ceramic capacitor is a non-polarity device, which means they do no have polarities. So we can connect it in any direction on a circuit board. For this reason, they are generally much safer than electrolytic capacitors."

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Hey George, thanks for the comment! Take a look at this video, this explains what I was trying to say about polarity. kzread.info/dash/bejne/dKKGwaaFlJS2dKw.html I know it sounds misleading, I didn’t mean + and - in terms of voltage. What I meant was the direction it’s folded inside, under the enclosure. It’s quite a revealing video, I highly recommend checking it out. Cheers!

@gjm1971

2 жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi Very interesting video. Thanks Kris 👌

These types of videos are great. Putting hypothesis and myths to the test. Absolutely love it!

Really like this kind of video, bit more of a deep dive into geekiness, love it. Keep it up.

Ganz großes Kino, Kris, für jeden der gerne mit Bauteilen experimentiert! Mir hat übrigens danach besser gefallen. Habe das schon vor Jahren einmal begonnen aus zu checken. Kleine Anregung: du kannst eine Gesamtkapazität durch Parallelschaltung mehrer kleiner Kapazitäten realisieren... viel Freude damit. Die Möglichkeiten sind schier unbegrenzt, denn es gibt sehr viel verschiedene Typen. Auch verschiedene Größen für verschiedene Maximalspannungen klingen anders, trotz gleicher Toleranz, Hersteller, Typ etc. Have fun and keep up the good work, love it! ;)

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Vielen Dank! Schön zu hören, dass meine nerdy Experimente Spaß machen anzuschauen. 😅 Danke für die Tipps, ich merke sie mir. Ciao

As always, great content!

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot Markus!

Very cool very educational and very honest thanks for the knowledge

Thanks for the explanation Kris! I can’t speak for others that commented on the last video, but I assure you mine was not a criticism. But more a question since I know nothing about different caps, how their values may or may not affect the tone etc. And you answered my inquiry perfectly! And you’re absolutely correct about that if you would have shown the readings, people will usually have a preconceived notion as to what the result should be and their conclusion will basically just be confirmation bias. Another awesome video, man!

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot man! Yeah this is (again) a subject, where everyone will have an own opinion. I wanted to focus on the tone in the first one and the results are really interesting. I think it’s best to try out a few caps and stick to the one that works best in that particular guitar. End of story. Haha 😅

I enjoyed this and the previous video on Capacitors and tone. Super Pup had some very interesting comments regarding capacitors that I hadn't heard before, and something to keep in mind when choosing Caps. I think you were right to keep the first video blind regarding the Cap values, even though I found it frustrating at the time. Thanks for testing the polarity of the Caps, as connecting them so the "outside foil end" to ground helps with noise, and probably bleeds some highs to ground. So, in that part of the tone test in this video, I would expect that when wired with the designed polarity going to ground, the tone would be darker/warmer. I did hear a difference in tone, and guess that when the "V" mark on the pot was pointed towards the Tone Pot, the Cap was wired with the outside foil end going to ground as intended. I think there's a benefit to wiring the Cap so the it is grounded properly, as that would help reduce noise on noisy pickups and loud volumes. As far as "tone" goes, I think the tone knob easily covers the range that the polarity of the Cap affects, so that wouldn't be a deciding factor for me. The Paper-In-Oil Cap seemed to improve all the aspects of tone that are important to me. Thanks for making such interesting videos. 👍 😎

Very interesting videos, and some great comments on both videos. I'd like to ask anyone reading this who has tried having a push pull with 2 different caps in it, What cap values would they reccomend? The guitar has 2 humbuckers, my first choice is 0.022, what value for a useable but darker tone for the second cap?

I just had an amazing experience with tone capacitors. The usual values, we know the differences in sound. Most of the time as soon as you set the potentiometer to zero the sound is muffled, unusable. With 0.015uf it is the least worst. I experimented with much lower values, between 0.0047uf and 0.0082uf. It sounds like a wahwah pedal stuck in the middle position, when the tone pot is at zero. With some mid/treble frequencies which are preserved. By choosing the right value I reached an extremely interesting and unique sound, and above all very usable. Not a dull, uninteresting sound. I tested these values ​​with a single p90 junior LP (50's wiring). The sound is amazing. I think that for stratocaster style pickups or humbuckers, other values ​​could be better, but not certain.

Based on the linked video re: cap polarity, the noise floor that comes from the cap being "backwards" is really small. In that vid he literally bridges the hot and ground at the amp's input with a cap, then CRANKS it to hear the noise. It was neat that you found the oil and paper smoother. The difference in the measured cap values was pretty minimal, and the slight difference in 'drained high frequencies' would be hard to hear, but people do say the oil and paper caps are 'smoother'. So it's nice to see a side-by-side confirm that! I had to laugh when the vid started. Before I noticed you had an autowah on, I thought that tone was coming from a tantalum cap and I thought "Man, that is super noticeable in a guitar"! Hugs, brother!

@picksalot1

2 жыл бұрын

Here is a link to a video called "Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards? Build this and find out" in which an oscilloscope was used to test the Capacitor's polarity. I didn't list it in my comments the other day, as the video is almost 50 minutes long. One can clearly see the effect of the wrong polarity. It is very interesting, so just in case you're interested, here's the link: kzread.info/dash/bejne/dKKGwaaFlJS2dKw.html

Beautiful guitar!!! And yes of course the character of different types of capacitors will have an influence. Just check their spec scheets. There is a reason that different types of capacitors are used in different parts of the circuits. It's hard to explain to someone who's not trained in engineering. Lots of small differences in charge and discharge time and so on,add to that different pots used. But STILL beautiful guitar!!! Please make a video about the guitar.

Aligator clips will help you change the caps right away and you will remember your tone. You could even add a toggle switch to change even faster. The differencies are always very subtle but after all why not choose the cap that affects your tone the way you like? Thanks for your video

Nothing passes thru a cap. for current to flow thru there has to be some resistance. Measure a caps resistance. The two leads NEVER touch each other, they are insulated from each other with a dielectric material. They charge and discharge with alternating current. Every time they do this current flows in a circuit, NOT thru the cap. The value determines how long they take to charge and discharge. Musical tones are sounds that alternate at different speeds (freq.). Anybody seeing the correlation between value and freq. So someone explain how different materials can affect tone. Guy's, expectation bias. I hesitate saying this with some of the stuff I read but your, our, brains have an amazing ability to make us hear what we want to hear, you are not immune, nor am I it happens to all of us, it's very real and seems we are really hearing a diff. when there can be none. Once I really studied and understood this many things I thought I heard in the past seemed to not really exsist.

Do you know if there is an orange capacitor in the latest Epiphone Les Paul standard 50’s ? Also would adding a gibson 498t pickup to the epi standard 50’s get close to that gibson sound or is there anything else i should do to it just for sound itself? Last but not least would this be worth doing to an epi standard 50’s or should i just get a Gibby standard 50’s ?

So at the end which one did you preferd the paper in oil or the orange drop?

Awesome experiments, man.

wow. hear a big difference in orientation with distortion. not as much when clean. useful! i prefer the first orientation. its brighter and more attack

Orientation of the capacitor definitely makes a diffience in the tone!! 😮 So many things to keep track of

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Haha, apparently yes, but don’t go too crazy on it. It’s fun to test out different ones for sure. That being said, I loved the guitar the same way with the orange drop (even though I think I’ll stick to the PIO for now). Cheers

I will say it could be possible for a cap to pick up hum depending on orientation, but to tell if it's more than what is normally picked up by the pickups and wiring, probably not even measurable. If it is measured too little human ears can't hear it, even if you have superhuman audiophile ears. Since we are dealing with alternating current, polarity mis-match is not possible.

What a beautiful guitar as played. It look so inviting and would love to play it!!! I'm a sucker for p90s and bet this plays great.

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Ah man, it’s such a good guitar. So inspiring and beautiful. 🙌

@nathancloud6344

2 жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi in happy for you to have it.

It did sound a bit duller with the arrow pointing at the tone pot, but only really on distortion?

Kris amazing as always my friend. To me it was a noticeable enough difference for me to make the upgrade when I was changing to a 4 way switch in my ‘51 relic telecaster. I went with the sprague vitamin Q .22 with the vipots 280k. If I’m going in my not just going to dip my toes but diving in all the way 😂

@KrisBarocsi

9 ай бұрын

Thanks man! Exactly, if you swap something in the guitar anyhow, why not going all in? 😜 Even small changes add up and can make you dig the guitar even more. Cheers buddy!

Hi Kris, thanks a lot for this follow-up. Definitely an interesting result. I did not hear any really noticeable difference between the caps swapped direction. Maybe in noise, as you noted too, but that can be something else as well and wasn't a huge difference either.

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks a lot for the comment! Cheers!

Hi Kris, das war ein toller Beitrag, der die Symptomatik eigentlich recht gut beschreibt und normalerweise hätte ich an dieser Stelle in englisch kommentiert, aber ich befürchte durch die doppelte Übersetzung geht dann doch relativ viel verloren, deshalb diesmal direkt in deutsch. Leider ist bzgl. Kondensatoren immer sehr viel Voodoo mit im Spiel, und diesmal auch in deinem Beitrag. Ich versuche einmal die Fakten knapp zusammenzufassen. 1) In der klassischen Gitarrenschaltung werden die Tone-Kondensatoren als Tiefpass-Filter genutzt, d.h., über den Schleifer des Potis wird definiert, wieviel des Gesamtsignals durch den Kondensator fließt (und dann die Höhen blockt). Eine offene Toneregelung (Stellung 10) bedeudet also, dass theoretisch der Signalweg zum KOndensator vollständig geblockt ist, aber ... 2) Die Schleiferwege des Potis erreichen in der Regel nicht 100% bzw. 0%, sondern z.B. nur 98% bzw. 2%, weil es dafür einen mechanischen Anschlag gibt, der genau dies verhindern soll. D.h., in der realen Schaltung ist also i.d.R. ein kleiner Anteil, der eben doch zum Kondensator fließt. Ob man dies wahrnehmen kann oder nicht, hängt dann von der Kennlinie des Kondensators ab ... 3) die Bauformen der Kondensatoren bewirken eben keine ideal linearen Kennlinien und sind insbesondere nicht deckungsgleich bei den unterschiedlichen Bauformen (z.B: Papier in Öl). Das bewirkt, dass die Filterwirkung bei der einen Bauform früher einsetzt als bei der anderen und u.U. sogar eine steilere oder flachere Regelkurve haben kann. Richtig hören kann man dies weder bei 100% noch bei 0%, sondern eher bei 60% bis 70% wo die eine Bauform eventuell bereits deutlich stärker filtert als die andere. (Kloppmann Pickups erklärt sehr schön, warum er die Kennlinien bestimmter Bauformen bevorzugt). 4) wie dem auch sei, ob man bei 100% Tonefilter (schleiferweg 100% durch Kondensator) Unterschiede hört, hängt dann auch sehr stark vom absoluten Nennwert ab und natürlich wie dicht der Poti wirklich an die 100% herankommt. In deinem Beispiel also deine Tonerwartung hell / dunkel. Ob man etwas bei 0% Tonfilter (Schleiferweg komplett am Kondensator vorbei = Toneregler voll offen) hört, hängt in erster Linie ab, ob der Schlupf des Potis bereits in die Kennlinie des KOndensators hineinreicht oder nicht also der Art der Kennlinie und damit auch der Bauform. D.h., wenn ich noch nicht im Filterbereich der Kennlinie bin, höre ich das bypass Signal. Wenn ich bereits in der Kennlinie bin, wird der Tone in den höhen gedämpft. ---> Meine persönlichen Schlussfolgerungen: 1) wenn mir das Regelverhalten nicht gefällt (bei mittleren Stellungen) macht es absolut Sinn, andere Bauformen zu probieren. Wenn mit die 100% und 0% Stellungen nicht gefallen, ist der Einfluss der individuellen Potis wahrscheinlich sehr viel relevanter. 20EUR+ für new-old-stock ausgeben, würde ich eher nicht, aber andere Bauformen testen (i.d.R. Last-but-least, deine Aussage zur Polarität war nicht ganz richtig. Es gibt bauartbedingt sowohl polare (z.B. ELKOs) als auch ungepolte Kondensatoren (Keramik, Polymerfolie). Bei letzteren ist die Fließrichtung egal. In Gitarrenschaltungen habe ich noch nie einen gepolten KOndensator verbaut gesehen. ... Sorry, für den langen Input. Wahrscheinlich können Ingenieure, insbesondere wenn Sie in der Elektroindustrie arbeiten bei dem Thema einfach nicht ihren Mund halten. Gruß Sven

It seemed to me that the V to tone sounded a bit darker, but not by much. The guitar sounds excellent BTW, and that's my preferred pickup combo!

i did not expect to hear a difference from the way the cap was wired but the v pointing the wrong way seem to me brighter and more clear and i closed my eyes for the first go round. thats going to make me check mine. although i probably won't change a thing as i love the way my lp sounds. after of course gutting it and replacing everything. haha

Hi Kris, Great stuff, interesting topic. I did not really hear the difference, but it might be my ears ruined by loud rock music. :-) The corner freq difference between the two values are at 1K (you might moved the pot a tiny bit) 7281 and 7156 Hz so above it rolls off 6db /octave. But normally at 10 it wouldn't read that high and at 100ohms it is 72810Hz and 71566Hz which is inaudible. In my opinion you need extremly good and precise ears to spot the characteristic difference between two types of caps, I guess you rather hear the difference between values, that usually way more apart as those caps have 10 or sometimes 20% tolerance. I would love to see (and hear, but clearly I am not the perfect judge with my out of order ears) a blind test with you and a couple of other players to see if you can hear or feel the difference. I guess you could feel the difference when you change the cap in your beloved axe that you know extremely well, though I think it is rather a what I am used to and like, than a good or bad cap thing. And one more thing. Usually I hear people say, you can hear the difference as the signal goes through the cap, and as it has a different characteristics, it alters somehow the tone and the response of the guitar. But the part of the signal that goes through this cap, is the part that goes to ground, therefore you don't here it. (but I am no engineer, so correct me) Once I heard a good reference that a very fancy expensive cap is like having a very expensive and nice looking bin. :-) Cheers

my asian vas Les Paul is very quiet compared to my ltd ec 100 ( this one have Orange drops in it ). Would you guys say its the Wiring or the Compassitor ?

I like throwing a .22 orange drop in my telecaster I find the taper is much more gradual and useable throughout the full 10-0

Can you make a video on how to put a telecaster in phase if out of phase? Thank you

its' strange. In your capacitor direction test the "After" position seemed slightly brighter on the humbucker, and the opposite on the P90.

Could the inductance of capacitors play a role?

Kris, thanks for your video. I have a question: Can a failing/damaged capacitor cause humming of guitar?? I’m lost in trying to get rid of hum on my les paul studio 2004. Just rewired it this morning and improved grounding but still it hums like crazy. When I touch capacitor guitar goes silent as it should be. Thanks . Köszönöm

@ranius7388

3 ай бұрын

If hum stops when you touch the strings , your bridge probably not grounded

That envelope filter totally reminded me of late 70's early 80's Dead.

Love the axe!

Also, even when you edit and listen you know which is which so again this is where bias comes in. even if we don't want to be biased or tell ourselves I'm not going to consider which is which it happens. And really unless something jumps out at you it's probably nothing there. Even if it were to have to go back and forth it's time better spent on something tangible.

It sounds a bit treble when it points to vol pot, and less treble on the tone. That's what I heard. I can't tell the noise diffrence though

Hi, when we're installing Orange drop 22nF 200V capacitor do we have to put it in one particular side so that we avoid noise? Thanks

@tonisalic6300

5 ай бұрын

There is polarity. I plug in my guitar cable into my amp, then I hand connect one wire of the cap to positive and one to gound. Then I reverse them. Whichever makes more noise, is your answer .

Would you try Bumblebee and Mustard caps too?

With most things if you think it’s going to work out better it does. I have an old Capacitor attitude and it’s ok!

I think my gibson sg leaks dc. Causing some sensitivity in a few of my pedals potentiometers causing some scratchimg sounds and crackling sounds. My amp was tested and the amp was fine by a technician. If I buy a gibson les paul woth orange drop capacitors will that help alleviate weird sounds?

@Jediroller

Жыл бұрын

Guitar signal is AC not DC, so not sure what you on about here. A capacitor in a circuit will block dc if present like in an amp. Normally scratchy pots can be DC present on a circuit but not a guitar or most pedals really (unless it controls a bias). They probably just dirty and you should get some electrical spray to spray in the pots and clean them out.

Funny a recent post got me thinking about this again. It made me realize that people who emphatically insist that material type affects tone and it's not placebo are the ones even more influenced by placebo, That attitude is the foundation for the placebo effect. Kinda ironic.

Caps aside, I just really love your guitar..

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

That makes the two of us, haha! This guitar just keeps on screaming my name. KRIS! PLAY ME!! NOW!!! 😂

like the paper cap for sure

POLARIZED capacitors have a polarity. Those are the electrolytic capacitors that are big cans with a stripe down the label. They are only polarized to indicate which plates are intended to build up electrons vs holes (if electrons are negative charge carriers, then an 'empty space' for an electron to fit into, or positive charge carrier, is called a hole). If you put a polarized capacitor in backwards in a normal DC circuit (especially one anywhere near its voltage rating) it will breakdown the electrolyte, which will boil off, or out gas, causing the cap to bulge and eventually rupture spewing nice sticky electrolyte all over your circuit board. That being said, voltage rating does matter. There is no point in putting a 400v capacitor in your guitar....unless its active electronics are powered by mains or something....well i mean, who knows, maybe there is some interesting tonal characteristics in using vastly over rated caps, but Ive never heard of any....generally speaking, on a normal passive guitar its not making a whole helluva lot of power from the string flying over the pickup magnetic fields in the first place. Maybe its fine? [shrug] IDK. I do know they make caps with a one and some change voltage rating, even lower for SMD circuits, that could possibly be an issue with polarized caps. The take away here is UNLESS THE CAP STATES IT IS POLARIZED IT IS NOT POLARIZED!!! And the polarization only matters so far as the damaged caused by building up opposing charge on plates not designed for it. No, not all caps are polarized, especially blue ceramics and 'orange drop' polypropylene caps (which, by the way, dont get taken by marketing, are normal ceramic and poly caps, there are no 'music capacitors specially engineered to make you a better guitarist by offsetting your lack of skill and decent hardware' out there. No, there isnt. Stop typing. There is not).

This will be interesting

I think you need to consider how a tone control on a guitar works. The capacitor in this circuit is not actually on the signal path. Ok, let me explain, the tone control circuit works by "bleeding off" the higher frequencies to ground , how much is bled off to ground depends on the value of the potentiometer and what frequencies are bled off depends on the value of the capacitor. The crucial point here is that these frequencies go to ground they do not appear at the output. What you hear after the tone circuit, has not been "through" the capacitor, the capacitor has no effect on this signal other than bleeding off the higher frequencies as previously stated. Different types of capacitor do not "sound" different if the values are exactly the same (they actually don't have a sound at all), what does make a difference to the audio signal is the tolerance rating and this is only because the value of the capacitance may not be what you think it is.

Vindication at last! 👍

I preferred the "after" , flipped around, tone. To me it sounded a little warmer. Personal preference, of course.

The polarity again is very important. You should always test the caps before soldering them in. You need to use 2 alligator clips and flip the caps around a few times while listening closely. Instead of playing chords you just want to play single lines. I found that with paper in oil cap I test them with the tone rolled all the way down (woman tone). One way will sound more dark and midrangey. Then flipping it the other way it will sound dark with some clarity and bite up top but not midrangey. Better for the woman tone that way. Not sure if other types of caps have the same effect.

@KrisBarocsi

Жыл бұрын

Hey, I’ve learned that some caps have polarities, some others don’t. As far as I can tell paper-oil has polarities so it’s a good idea to test it. 👍

Hello Kris, I am also an electrical engineer and sadly the "tonal" differences of capacitors do not exist on a usable level. There are differences between capacitor types but none of which change the frequency response in a noticeable way. The difference between the frequency response on a bode plot of capacitor types are nearly the same and identical to the human ear. The "tone knob" of an electrical guitar is usually a simple first order low pass filter using a resistor (potentiometer) and a capacitor. The cut off frequency is calculated with the equation 1/2piRC and that is the frequency where the the loudness is at 1/2 or -3dB. The small difference in the capacitors value also wont change the tone noticeably, it only would if its really different, but not like a 2%. Another point about the tone knob at 10 affecting tone. By technical standpoint it does change the tone using the same equation as before but a pot at 10 has a resistance usually between 0 and 2ohms so the frequencies being cut are well in the MHz range which is way beyond the 20KHz of human hearing. I love the video though. I love combining the worlds of physics and sick tones.

@shredgd5

2 жыл бұрын

If you think that a tone pot at 10 is 0-2 ohms, I’m struggling believing you’re an electrical engineer... or at least that you know how an electric guitar is wired.

@DrKevGuitar

2 жыл бұрын

I'm a physicist by training (PhD). Anthony is 100% correct. Everything he said is spot on. In addition, if different capacitors of the same value had tonal differences manufacturers would have used frequency response curves in their marketing many many decades ago.

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you for this comment thread! I love reading it and since I'm definitely not an electrical engineer, nor a physicist, I will simply accept and agree with all that Anthony and DrKev wrote. I do have a very important question though and I hope someone can answer it: if that's all true, why did they sound different in my comparison video? It wasn't a huge difference, but everyone seemed to notice the same thing: the PIO sounded a little smoother in all tone pot settings, including tone at 10. Which makes even less sense now that I measured them. According to the values they should "sound" the same (the PIO had an even lower resistance so it should leave the sound at least as open as the orange drop, if not even a little more). I'm struggling to understand this, since it seems to go against the rules of electronics / physics. I'd very much appreciate a logical explanation for this, because I'm a little bit confused. 😆 Cheers guys!

@anthonym8296

2 жыл бұрын

@@shredgd5 Hey buddy, I have used multiple multimeters on the potentiometers in all of my guitars and they have a value of 0-2ohms. If you don't believe me, get yourself an ohmmeter and try it out yourself.

@anthonym8296

2 жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi Hi Kris, I currently do not know why they sounded a little different, I will have to run an analysis on your video and make my own detailed experiment eventually in my laboratory. I will try to get back to you when I have it finished. It might have been an experimental error of the guitar playing itself or something minor if not done in a perfectly controlled system.

How i wish .022uf vs .047uf..nice vid❤

Wait, so where did you get that meter?

@KrisBarocsi

2 ай бұрын

Hey, I just ordered it from an electric supply shop. Just look for one that measures capacitance. Cheers!

You already said it, " I prefer it this way" and is'nt that what it's ultimately about? I would remove the cap and record a min or so and then put one in with tone at 10 just for a test.I found that some caps change value depending on temperature of the room . Good job, keep on searching.

Would have been more helpful if you had told us which end of the capacitor ( +or-) you marked

So as an engineer, I heard a statement on That Pedal Show that’s very much rung true for me: “Just because YOU can’t hear the difference, doesn’t mean there isn’t one”.

Another great vid. Thanks! I'm becoming more and more convinced that, unless your sound is completely digitally created, everything makes a difference. Pots, caps, woods, metals used in the bridge, etc. And I know that two different copies of the same guitar model can sound (and feel) very different. But I do feel we tend to pay way more attention to subtle things than some obvious ones. Like choice of pick (or not using a pick) for example. Or even without changing a pick, where you pick on the string, angle of attack, etc ... all of that can make much more impact on overall sound than some of these other subtle things. Cables too. And, oh yeah, amps. Bottom line ... if you like it, and it inspires you to play, it is good!

@gregorwalton

2 жыл бұрын

Also we should maybe remember that nobody in the average audience cares about subtle differences in tone

to be fair, the values seem to be very close to each other. there is like 2% difference between them. so I suppose that should not change a whole lot. so i guess the conclusion is that the material changes the tone? i don't know. but it seems like it. thank you for doing the followup.

@musikus7092

2 жыл бұрын

the material doesn't matter

@drdfx159

2 жыл бұрын

Agree, they were both pretty close to the nominal value and well within the advertised 10% error margin (actually almost 1%, which is very good for caps). I don't believe it is the material, I'd rather think it is because of the parasitic inductance and resistance caused by the physical properties. I don't know how the orange drops are constructed, but the pio caps can act very much as a coil having some inductance too. The tone control in the guitar doesn't just act anyways as a simple low-pass filter, it interacts with the pickup's coil and the pots and thus the whole system creates a more complicated LRC circuit having a resonant frequency. Now with the tone pot you move around this resonant frequency, a bit like a wah pedal. I think it is not the question which cap is "better" or "worse", but to find the one with which you are happy with your guitar's sound.

Well, you forgot the biggest variable: the player. If you want do this in a really reproducible way the pickup needs to be magnetically excited (by a coil or alike) and always play the same notes. Then you record the results and subtract them from each other. The difference will be the influence of the cap. This will be realistic and not being influenced by the listener or his/her expectations. But - honestly - I believe this to be an esoteric discussion without any real practical value.

I can't believe an electrical engineer said what passes thru the cap??? Current never passes thru a cap. The two leads are insulated from each other by a dielectric. Electrons cannot cross it. It charges and it dis-charges, when that happens current flows in the rest of the circuit. I would like him to explain how material affects tone. .022mf is .022mf, it is a time based measurement, which is what effects it's freq. range. In a .022 cap you will hear as little as 10pf diff in value, much smaller than it's spec'd tolerance and less than most multi meters will average their measurement. Tho the dielectric becomes polorised and is diff in diff caps .022mf is still how long it takes to charge whether ceramic or mylar. one has to consider placebo possibilities. Also this is a guitar cap which is in series with a pretty hi value pot (500k w/ humbuckers). In addition to that the cap is not even in series with the signal it just bleeds off freq. So even if signal did (pass thru) a cap, it wouldn't in a guitar.

@qua7771

Ай бұрын

That might be true if capacitors were purely capacitive. You have to take into consideration other factors such as ESR, inductance ramp speed etc... No two compositions are alike.

@bradt.3555

Ай бұрын

@@qua7771 How much diff. in inductance is there between say a .022 ceramic and a .022 mylar cap? I'd be interested in the measurements you've gotten. And ramp speed? Farads are a time based measurement. How long it takes to charge is what gives it it's value. .022mf of any type takes the same amount of time to charge. That's why they work at diff. freq. Freq. is also time . The resistance of a cap is for all puposes infinity. The actual resistance of the metals that are used in a cap negligable between caps. not enough that would ever affect sound and also would be part of what makes up it's time measurement, farads, micro, pico, etc. These things are so infinite that it could not be detected by human hearing. The only diff. heard other than placebo is it's value.

@qua7771

Ай бұрын

@@bradt.3555 A Mylar cap can be folded or wound. If you want to know the other specs, you have to look at white papers. I can tell you now from my amp building experience that there is a substantial difference in the tone of caps with different composition. It's not placebo effect by any means. Secondly, price doesn't always correlate to quality. There are various factors that effect price. I don't have time to debate just for the sake of it. If you are playing high gain most of your tone is lost anyway. Don't assume all players use a ton of gain, effects or processing. Don't assume everyone can hear the difference either.

@bradt.3555

Ай бұрын

@@qua7771 I assume by gain you mean distortion cause you can have lots of one without the other. I use almost no distortion and also mod and build amps, guitars, stereo equip., so on. But you are correct with lots of distortion much is hidden. I never mentioned price. Placebo is real. Look at how little of a value diff affects tone then look at the % that is. 1% of a .022mf is 22pf, that will make a noticable diff. What do you use to determine it's not placebo, hopefully not your ears. Cause that's why placebo is so debated. Even the best ears can be fooled. Mine are quite good so let's not even go there. Half of my 50 yrs working on this stuff has been researching placebo.

@qua7771

Ай бұрын

@@bradt.3555 Your implying that your ears are gold, and mine are shit in a back handed sort of way. As I previously mentioned, we strongly disagree, and I'm not going to waste my time or yours debating just for the sake of it. These discussions never come to a head.

I am not an electrician. I heard a slightly darker tone after you turned the capacitor around. It had a bit more clarity to my ears before it was flipped. As for me I prefer darker tones because my hands already put out a lot of mids. I usually have my amp and guitar tone set pretty dark. If I don't do that, my tone gets way to bright. Thanks for the video

@Dldmny

2 жыл бұрын

It's the tone that is ''too bright' that starts everyone on the quest to modify their tone circuits. All guitars are capable of bright tones, and many of us have adjusted the amp to sound darker. You can also play in the first position rather than up on the neck, and stay off the first and second strings to avoid the higher frequencies. I strongly believe that a guitar should sound like a guitar rather than something else by using it's full range of frequencies.

So u had an electrical engineer say "the freq that pass thru it" ? That's kinda weird as NOTHING ever passes thru a cap. Again it charges and dis charges allowing current to flow in the circuit. Measure the resistance of a cap, see what u get. That's why it blocks DC but it also blocks AC. Why do you think it affects diff freq. according to value? It's value tells u how long it holds a charge, also how long to charge. That is only affected by value, not what it's made out of.

I like the video but by measuring the capacitance you get very little information. Some people say "capacitance is capacitance, the same number will give the same sound regardless of material". What they don't consider is capacitance is only one attribute of the capacitor and there are other attributes that are influenced by the material and construction such as ESR, ESL or leakage.

Values are values. It's all in your head, your smile wins you nothing.

Why am I watching this?! I'm 56 & have listened to my music on 10 since I got my first cassette Walkman Christmas 1979. I can't hear crap anymore unless it's on 10. Two full stacks and my closest neighbor is 2 miles away. Akka-Dakka baby!!! 🎸

I always find hard to catch tonal differences on KZread without a graphical spectrum analyzer as reference, I guess it would provide useful insight

Hey, hey, hey. You play great!!!

@KrisBarocsi

8 ай бұрын

Thank you so much!

For every video or electrical engineer that says the cap materials matters, there's a video / electrical engineer that says it doesn't. :D

Kris, can you PLEASE tell me what that guitar is behind you with the white pickgaurd 2 humbucker semi hollow rosewood neck. I see it and am fascinated by it. Pretty Please, I’ll mail you 5 whole dollars. Thank You!

@KrisBarocsi

Жыл бұрын

Hey, sure! It’s a PJD Guitars Carey Elite. And it’s amazing. 🙌

@stevebuffington6534

Жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi Thank you VERY MUCH!

A more proper test would be to take examples of various different TYPES of capacitors that have exactly the same MEASURED value. Now see if they "sound different". The answer will be....no. Don't forget to run a Bode plot with each one inserted in the test circuit.

Hmm. In a full band setting though, nobody will really notice. 🤷‍♂️

@genri.a9128

2 жыл бұрын

Like most things that guitar players swear by them.

@rebelmastermind2350

2 жыл бұрын

In such a weird setting like full band 🤷‍♂️ especially loud Rock, nobody will really notice... Guitar brand, model, neck joint, bridge, wood, pickups (beyond differences like single coil/humbucker), overdrive model, valves (or lack thereof) even amp model (beyond something as broad of Plexi, Recto, modern hi gain). And just for the more stubborn: No. No one can notice the color of the guitar, the nitrocellulose lacquer, the size of the pick, the material of the knobs and truss rod cover...

@Burnt_Gerbil

2 жыл бұрын

@@rebelmastermind2350 - Brilliant. None of it really matters. I agree. 😄👍

Electronic components are just that; components. They have a value, not a "tone'". Capacitors don't _change_ your tone, they _filter_ the signal coming out of the potentiometer (variable resistor). The resulting signal is changed in accordance to the _value_ of the capacitor, nothing more. Any perceived difference is certainly not down to the type of the capacitor.

How many we like the "after" less noise and clearer tone 👍

Excellent video of a controversial subject. Hopefully musicians and the science guys will come to the conclusion that the type of cap 100% effects the sound. We guitar players no this from listening and the science guys tell us the only difference is the value. But you show that those 2 caps are in range and very close on the meter. But sound very different.

Keep shoveling!

Pointing v to volume is fat...pointing v to tone is bright...good job bro

Yeah that was PROOF that it 'kinda' matters.

Ehhh, any difference may well have been from the player. Sure glad I saw this comparison.

Also, the type of capacitor do not affect the transient. Only its value and the equivalent resistance of the circuit that sees the capacitor. What happend is normally tantalum capacitors are in the range of 1 to 10 microfarad while film capacitors are in the range of 1 to 680nf normally, so the difference is in the value. From my perspective of electronic engineer, electrical engineers are all crazy hahaha ( engineers joke )

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

😂👏 Love the attitude and thanks a lot for the insights! Cheers!

4:29 that’s why I test and match all my components when building circuits.

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

You're a wise man Poo!

I love this type of video, it brings out just how few people know what they are talking about. I have many years postgraduate experience as an avionics and test equipment designer. Very little of that (none of it) involved guitar electrics. As a hobby I have designed and built synthesisers and effects units. Little of that involved guitar electrics. Recently I also mod and play guitars. I believe these videos do show some differences in tone. I suspect most of this comes from what are known as "parasitics" - effectively small components in addition to the pure capacitance you thought you were buying. For instance a capacitor is made of parallel plates of conductive material with a dielectric between them. The plates will have resistive and inductive elements, as will the leads. The dielectric won't have a constant value at all frequencies and will also have a leakage resistance. Once installed there will be resistance and inductance in the wiring, as well as capacitance between conductors. When you consider all of these elements, particularly the imperfect nature of paper and oil capacitors, it is hardly surprising that there are subtle tonal differences. I have neither the equipment not the inclination to try to quantify these things but it would be interesting to see an experiment where you keep the circuit and the components exactly the same but change the layout inside your guitar radically, to see if that affects tone. Anyway, I may be wrong - I know a bit about electronics but not particularly about this. I just wanted to offer up a possibility based on science rather than black magic

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, I really appreciate your input! 👍

interesting version of little wing :D

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I don't know what was going on there. Haha! I wasn't planning on playing that song. It just happened.

@sch2412

2 жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi you played it well. what was that? auto-wah? :D

Here's a cool setup from StewMac to let you try different capacitors back to back with a flip of a switch kzread.info/dash/bejne/lqakrpKpkca-cto.html

I’ve always said the difference to me is feel, not exactly tone.

21.87 is closer to 22 than 22.25

Of course they matter

Had less gain after you swapped it round :)

I recommend to watch a video from Joe Gore (kzread.info/dash/bejne/lnmmj5hvdLWegLA.html&ab_channel=tonefiendbyjoegore) on this very topic. Many (not 2) caps of different type and value are compared, on a very sound and controlled protocol. No differences beyond the cap values. The "engineer" testimony is very misleading. The "spring" behaviour (let's say.. they can catch and release electrical charges...) of capacitor acts with a time parameter directly dependent of it's value and other parameters of the circuit they are in. That's explain the frequency filtering they are used for. THat springyness IS the value. There is no other mojo spring/squish/boing action. I redid the circuit of a 79 MIJ LP copy some years ago . I got 'mustard' (said to be russian vintage...) p.i.o. in it. They look cool... But cost me 15 € (for 2) when regular ones would be 1 or less.

It wasn't easy to explain to my girlfriend why Jimi Hendrix was such a great guitar player, but how on earth can I explain her what exactly this video is about? We are getting a bit freaky, I am afraid😅 (By the way: PIO's for me)

LESS THAN HALF A NF BETWEEN THE TWO CAPS WOULD BE DIFFICULT TO HEAR BUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE MAKEUP OF PIO & POLY CAPS I BELIEVE, IS THE REASON THAT THE COMMENT YOU READ OUT WAS CORRECT & IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ATTACK! I FOUND THIS VERY INTERESTING & SOMETHING I HAD NEVER CONSIDERED BEFORE...kzread.info/dash/bejne/qGucl82CaMrSp6Q.html

May be the differance is all in your head? Or I use to tell my band members to go to DR,.a d get thier ears cleaned .WE never know what we wanna hear till we hear it.Then you know it 22 fenders are fine.

Tudtam, nem hagytam magam átverni a többi videótól 🤗 // knew it // 1% eltérés a névleges értéktől az prémium

@szrnkabela

2 жыл бұрын

How about a video discussing cleaner punchier top end when using a high-ohm volume pot opened instead of a low-ohm VP. 🤔

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

Köszi! :) Gondolom te is azt hallottad az elso videóban, mint amit én is. (bocs, nincs hosszú ö-m a laptopomon 😅)

@szrnkabela

2 жыл бұрын

@@KrisBarocsi szerintem ugyanazt és nekem sem vudu a PiO kondenzátor. Csak az AmPro Fenderemet nem voltam hajlandó megbontani, amúgy a többi hangszeremen kicseréltem PiOra a kondit. A polaritásról nem tudtam, de most azt is kihallottam. Hosszú ő már az én laptopomon sincs, csak a handyn, úgyhogy megértelek. 🤭 azt meg sose jegyzem meg, hogy a ß vagy az Ä mögött van az ő, amikor bill. kiosztást váltok. 🙃

@KrisBarocsi

2 жыл бұрын

@@szrnkabela Drága jó német billentyuzet. Haha! Üdv!

I got a question... HUH !?