I always loved Furnace Fun. As a kid I thought "oh how cool, all that time I spent exploring the game is really paying off!" and as an adult I think "what an interesting and refreshing change of pace. Plus all that time I spent exploring the game OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS is really paying off!"

I got Banjo-Kazooie when I was 4. This was the last game I played with my mother before she stopped playing video games, and needless to say, I was bad at it. There was no individual challenge outside of getting a few easy Mumbo's Mountain Jiggies that I could accomplish. My original save file of Banjo-Kazooie, which I still have to this day, is over 90 hours, all of that active playtime. I could not do or overcome anything without help in this game. But I loved this game, I absorbed every inch of it, I obsessed over every little detail that Brentilda gave. So uh. I'm a little biased, because that experience of beating it for my mom and knowing the answers to the Gruntilda questions is something I can never forget. But I think it's really great! I do think that Furnace Fun is a very strong ending to the game. Banjo-Kazooie requires the player to have 765 notes in order to access it, meaning that at minimum, they've combed through at least eight out of nine worlds pretty thoroughly. Additionally, Banjo is kind of rough when it comes to combat or platforming - the Engine Room is a pretty fair challenge for a platformer, but in the context of Banjo it's an absolute nightmare of a zone. Having a final challenge that is tied to what Banjo does well - its atmosphere, its writing, and its exploration - speaks to me a lot more strongly than the final confrontation with Grunty (though I do like that the game rewards you mechanically with refills and the red honeycombs for being good at collection before the Grunty fight). To that end, I don't view Brentilda's questions differently than any other collectible - Grunty's Lair is all about celebrating Gruntilda, after all, with the witch constantly reinforcing her personality through her architecture and running commentary. Having another element to add onto all that makes a ton of sense and works as a compliment to the worldbuilding. Even something as simple as having the answers to the questions in italics and making them shake helps them stand out in the memory. I understand the frustration of the concept, ESPECIALLY in speedrunning where the RNG makes those Grunty questions stand out and take a life greater than the childhood anguish of them presented. But I love that there is a boss fight for the concept of collection, and that Grunty's ace in the hole is essentially the equivalent of asking "what color is my underwear?" and being shook that you managed to answer it right. Repeatedly. And I like that it becomes a fun flex on replays, but is a really strong endurance match as you seek out questions you know and try to save honeycombs on your first run.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

From what I've heard from other comments thus far, the value of having this type of sequence at the game's near-end comes from various places. The interpretation of how Brentilda functions as a mechanic, the exploratory mindset persisting through the tedium, it's all so fascinating. I'm loving the kinds of comments I've been reading on this video, so thank you again for watching and contributing to the conversation so deeply. I appreciate it a lot!

@GQtheGamer

Жыл бұрын

I recently did this for the first time, now I knew there was a quiz show, but this was not what I was expecting.

I always found Grunty's Furnace Fun to be hilarious and surprising.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

I would argue that it's both. It just comes with a lot of other qualities too, some good, some bad. It's fascinating for sure!

For me it was an incredible surprise for multiple reasons. For example. English isn't my first language (And I live in a non English speaking country) so it was an uphill battle of literal wits. Which words I remember from brentilda? What was that Crab's name? did I ever understood the question?... But I had something in my favor, being at school in the early 00's, my free time to play was quite limited, so beating any game could took even months, I think BK took me around a year (we had other games, a lot of homework and other activities to do). But I played it to absurd levels of completion, being the guide for my younger siblings (that at the time couldn't even read) and other friends at school. So the challenge was fun in a way that made compelled me to keep learning, not just another language but to pay attention to details, even if there is no quiz at the end of the day. Keep up the good work!

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

This is a great story you shared. I love hearing everyone's perspectives on what this type of challenge means to them, even if they interpret its lasting value differently. Thank you for watching and I'm happy you enjoyed the video!

My biggest criticism to the criticisms is that BK game "goals" aren't just about platforming, they're clearly a mix of all kinds of challenges. Puzzle solving, speed challenges, platforming, exploring, combating, collecting, and uncovering secrets. I would hate if the game was 100% only one of those things and love that it's a variety show. Same thing with the theming, I'd hate if all the levels were 1 theme. That's why this quiz is brilliant. The criticisms seem like nitpicks and the idea of "it breaks the flow of the platforming" I just don't agree with cause for me it feels like a welcome break from all the platforming, plus we still have platforming challenges mixed into the puzzle. As for Brentilda, I found her funny and knew she gives health so it would be great to speak to her and get HP back while also having a laugh, especially as a kid. And I distinctly remember being so happy I talked to her at the end and trying my best to remember the things she said and mostly succeeding despite the time difference. Is her integration perfect? No, but it's a nitpick at best. She was so nice to run into in a hostile world and I liked her as flavor with payoff in the end. If she wasn't in the quiz then I'd say it's valid criticism to consider her useless cause where is the payoff of listening to her? If someone has an idea to make it better then by all means, but I'd ask would we rather it not be in the game? Cause I think tossing it would be tragic.

I like the idea that Grunty would ask about her habits. She’s the villian, and she would want you to feel anxious and confused. For me, I did not remember all of her sister’s info she gave, but for those I did remember, it was rewarding. Surely, I died a few times, and was surprised to be asked stuff I did not know, and that was when I discovered she gives you three secrets each time you find her.

As a kid I both looked forward to and dreaded Furnace Fun whenever I replayed the game. I enjoyed it for the same reason I found it frustrating, as it was a completely different part of the game that stuck out, making it both memorable and awkward for that very reason. Ultimately I think the reason why it doesn't work is because it largely disregards everything the player has learned up to that point. I'm generally of the opinion that a final boss should be a final test of sorts, which is why Vergil from Devil May Cry 3 is my favorite boss fight of all time. All that said, the goofy charm of Furnace Fun is something that can't be denied, it feels so in-character for Grunty and the idea of being on a game show that's also a board game is a really novel concept. Anyways, really enjoyed your breakdown of this dude, good stuff.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Aside from there being a real final boss in Banjo-Kazooie, nothing screams "final test" like a pop quiz. Kidding aside, what you said makes a lot of sense. I'm pretty impressed hearing everyone say how pleasant a surprise they found Grunty's Furnace Fun. Definitely shows that throwing a curveball that's as memorable as this can help a sequence rise above its faults. I like hearing everyone's interpretations and stories of when they first laid eyes on that giant game board. It's really cool to hear, and thank you, my friend!

I never had much of a problem with Furnace Fun. If anything, the thing that takes the wind out of my sails is the fact that after completing it you need to present even more Jiggies to fight Grunty. The amount of optional Jiggies is actually pretty low (iirc you can only miss about five or six) so telling players who are still a little short to go back and explore again after what should've been a fun diversion before the finale feels like a swift kick to the shins.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, the amount of collectibles you need to actually finish the game seems...off. The note doors AFTER the quiz show were the bane of my existence as a kid, I swear.

Is it abrupt? Sure. Can it somewhat derail your excitement for a final boss fight? For some, yeah. But if you're looking at it through a smaller lens, then that's all you're going to see. It does have a big pacing issue in that it's kind of stopping you from reaching the end in a way that the game has never really shown to be one of its focuses. But In the larger sense of Banjo Kazooie as a whole, and Rare's history of doing weird things like this; I think this is an extremely well thought out and fun surprise. I think the thing it does best is just giving you a chance to look back on everything you've done so that way you have a greater sense of the game as a whole when you go to finally finish it off. Not many games would do something like that and I'm real glad that Banjo did! Really excellent video!

I think a big problem with this is also that the game doesn’t tell you to memorize everything. If players got more hints, then maybe it would be more bearable

The biggest gripe i had with the quiz section was the gruntilda questions, the only way to know the answers was to find her sister throughout the lair and that was so tedious, i always banked the jokers for these squares especially.

I was 9 when I first played Banjo-Kazooie, and as a kid I would take my time examining every detail with every game I played. So when I did Furnace Fun, I was actually surprised, thrilled and overjoyed that a game finally took all the little details you might’ve skipped over, and made you really pick your brain on trivia you subconsciously saved in your mind, or curiously know right off the bat. 😂

I loved Grunty's Furnace Fun. Makes me wish Banjo Kazooie had a game replay feature in the same was Banjo Tooie did.

Rare also had a history with in-game quizzes, Swanky in DKC2 was kind of a prototype of the idea that later became Grunty's Furnace Fun

Have always been kind of sad I missed the Banjo games during the original run. They seem like games I would have enjoyed back when they were new, but to be honest, I probably would've been put off by the quiz section back then.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

I think, as many other comments have mentioned, that the quiz show is all about gauging a reaction. Surprise, confusion, excitement...regardless of what kind, a reaction was set. Any game that can provoke such strong reactions has to be doing something inventive. After reading what many others have said, I think Grunty's Furnace Fun nailed that provocative bit to the letter. It's super fascinating.

Hey i think you should try talking about "your turn to die" it's a really good visual novel game with fun characters, minigames,mystery and you get to choose who dies in some chapters

I recall my brother getting to that part of Banjo, and not being able to beat it. Always struck me as a bit out of place watching him play it, thought it did fit with the tone.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

It's an imposing sequence and I'm sure your brother wasn't the only person who experienced a roadblock with it. I hope I was able to at least shed some light on its more appealing qualities, though!

@yankeegmen90

Жыл бұрын

@@PostMesmeric You definitely did. It is a pretty neat way to see how much you paid attention to the details along the way.

I like that it pull me and my brother together to get past it because we shared the same save.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Lots of memories with this game. Glad you enjoyed Grunty's quiz in your own way!

I've always thought Furnace Fun worked well simply because, as you put it, it's exceptionally fitting for Gruntilda to do something like this. From the questions solely about her personal life to the design of the board itself (that skull right before the end is fiendish), it feels like it belongs simply as one last trick up her sleeve before she almost begrudgingly takes you on directly. Honestly, I think some of the distaste for it has come from its successors. The Tower of Tragedy in Tooie doesn't have a board so it just feels like a relatively boring trivia game added solely because "oh, it's the second Banjo game, better do what we did before" (or, morbidly, to ensure Mingella and Blobbelda wouldn't return in a later title), and that format continued in the trivia sections of Grunty's Revenge and Nuts & Bolts. Most damning is how it's done in Yooka-Laylee, with it not only being done three times but asking questions that aren't about what is naturally observed, such as what enemy you first killed (assuming the game even tells you what they're called) or how many Quills you have in total at that point. It's there that its status as a roadblock rather than a fun "gotcha" moment is most apparent, and I'm incredibly grateful Impossible Lair didn't carry that over.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

That is a good point. All of the later attempts at capturing the same vibe as Furnace Fun didn't really land. Yooka-Laylee in particular really phoned it in, probably for the sake of nostalgia. Maybe it was lightning in a bottle with Kazooie, but even then, there was a lot of disapproval of the game's ending quality from what I heard. It's complicated, but it makes it fun to study.

Good points. I replayed the game recently, and even with finishing it it faster than normal (knowledge + some save states) and listening to Brentilda, I still made mistakes in Furnace Fun (didn’t use save states for that). Despite all that knowledge being fresh, whereas playing normally would’ve spread it out much thinner. I think those mistakes could be overlooked if the board was half as big. Especially when you can make some easy mistakes like mixing up Clanker’s Cavern for Rusty Bucket Bay or some of those mini-games having short timers than you realized.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

I think if the board was smaller, it'd suffer from some of the same issues Yooka-Laylee's quizzes had, though the latter was way too straight-forward as well (in some cases literally). Still, that's an interesting thing to consider.

When I played Banjo-Kazooie for the first time a handful of years ago, I made a note of all of the things Brentilda said, since they seemed... conspicuous (being such a famous part of the game, I was probably at least vaguely aware that a trivia challenge loomed in the distance). I can only imagine how frustrating those questions must be if you don't do that. At the time, my biggest complaint was just that Brentilda's comments weren't particularly funny. "Wow, Gruntilda sure is gross and fat," repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat...

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

That's an interesting point. If the facts were more varied, then maybe they'd be easier to internalize and remember at the game's end. It's tough to remember so many facts if they're all just about how gross Gruntilda is. That being said, they also might make the quiz show less of a surprise. A player might figure out that the clues are actually pretty important. It all comes down to conspicuity, as you mentioned. Definitely worth thinking about!

I really appreciate the fact that you took the time to analyze this particular section of the game. I do agree that it is flawed to an extent. If the player has prior knowledge that there is in fact a quiz show at the end of the game, then the surprise is diminished entirely. But if someone plays it without knowing of it's existence, it's highly unlikely that they will be prepared, even less so for the Grunty related questions I do agree that utilizing Brentilda differently would definitely be a big improvement. One solution would be to locate her in each stage instead of Gruntilda's Lair, rewarding the player with a jiggy upon finding her. That would give players greater incentive and reason to seek her out, while giving purpose and justification to Grunty's questions in Furnace Fun. For me personally, I don't remember ever struggling with Furnace Fun as a kid. I tend to explore every nook and cranny of a game and have a really good memory. So for me, It was more or less a test of my knowledge of the game. The anxiety and stress that you speak of is more than likely intentional from the developers.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Part of me would like to experience Grunty's Furnace Fun again without knowing it's coming. I think that particular placement matters a lot to its appeal and disapproval alike. I'm happy I was able to offer some weird analysis to this segment. Thank you!

@xPXGx

Жыл бұрын

@@PostMesmeric It isn't a weird analysis at all. In fact, your argument is very sound and really well articulated. This is an excellent video. Furnace Fun is easily one of the most memorable parts of the game, so it makes sense to look at it through a modern, critical context.

I never got to play Banjo-Kazooie so I cant say it for certain, but Yooka-Laylee also had several quizzes in it and I assume that was the devs second attempt at this (considering Playtonic had numerous Rare devs).

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Rare had implemented quiz shows into games both before and after Banjo-Kazooie, but Yooka-Laylee had clear intentions that it was trying to do the same thing. If you ask me, Yooka-Laylee's quizzes were FAR less interesting and not nearly as polished as Grunty's Furnace Fun.

I loved it. I went out of my way a few years back to clear every space which was nerve wracking near the end. The Grunty spaces are my only gripe, just because of how much I’ve played the game and the way they change each run. Identifying sounds and music has always been something I liked so, never really minded that. I much prefer it over Tooie’s silly quiz. I would have rather fought Grunty’s sisters.

To me and my friend Furnace Fun was an absolute show stopper. As 10 year old kids (if even that) who had just started or were about to start learning English in school we simply couldn't do anything but guess the answers. Needless to say we never got to see the last boss back then which was frustrating. On my second playthrough many years later I actually liked this part quite a bit. A bit different ending which fit the vibe of the game well. Not sure if I'd be the biggest fan if I played the game through multiple times though. This strikes me as something which might fun the first time (if you understand what's going on so not like us as kids) but which gets old quickly.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Oddly enough, multiple playthroughs are where I believe most of the appeal would come from. The question pool is surprisingly deep, with plenty of facts to uncover, so I think being able to replay it would still provide enough fresh content to be interesting. Still, that's fascinating to hear!

Every time I play thru Kazooie I actually go out of my way to complete as many squares of Furnace Fun as I can, it's genuinely one of my favorite parts of the game lol

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

It's an interesting idea for sure, so faults aside, it's easy to appreciate what it tries to do. It's really cool hearing so many people talk about how much they actually enjoyed the quiz show.

Even on a first playthrough I didn't have much of a problem answering the random trivia besides the dreaded Grunty spaces. Those are the only questions I have an issue with, because talking to Brentilda isn't fun or rewarding in of itself, while exploring the levels and platforming for collectibles is. Overall, I quite liked the shakeup, and wish Tooie's quiz had as much going on in it.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Tooie's quiz made me feel like Rare just hadn't yet figured out what made Grunty's Furnace Fun work to its fullest. Questions are one thing, but presentation and depth go one step further.

IMO there is only one major key aspect that kind of taints the quiz a tad. It's Grunty spaces... and obviously death spaces too as they can be Grunty spaces as well. The real issue with these however isn't that you can memorize them... nonono the issue goes way deeper. The part you kind of didn't mention... The fact that Grunty has no definitiv character traits nothing you know about her matters memorizing all the fact might even be worse than not. Grunty has 15 different questions she can ask with 3 different variants and each question can have a different answer every time you start a new save file. If you aren't using tools you'll have a bad time cause if you replay the game you might answer incorrect because you falsely remember from your last playthrough. It's often the best idea to skip death spaces with jokers and mash through the grunty ones you got a 1/3 chance to answer correct at random. On death squares you die for 1 wrong answer.

i love the Furnace Fun! having a save file on my switch, to play it, whenever i want

I loved how the platforming suddenly changed into a theatrical game show. It's hard to get surprised like this in games anymore.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Surprises are harder to come by in the internet age, so yeah, it definitely was an unexpected sight.

@KajiCarson

Жыл бұрын

@@PostMesmeric A comparable situation in another game to this is, I guess, the first "boss fight" against Mettatton in Undertale. Not many others spring to mind.

I'm actually very surprised to hear people didn't like this aspect, especially since every Banjo-Kazooie platformer to follow including ukulele had it. I love furnace fun and found it disappointing you couldn't replay the mini game, it's a big reason why I liked the replay functionality of Banjo-Tooie so much because I like going back to the quiz

If the Gruntilda Spaces didn’t exist I think Furnace Fun woulda had a better rep.

Heh at the start I was thinking "Oh yeah I remember that, that was fun" but the further I got in to the video the more I'm thinking "Hmmm, maybe it wasn't all that great actually..." Maybe it wasn't a total success but I always appreciate a dev who's willing to try something a bit out there and different.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Rare were all about trying out weird ideas like this, especially back in the 90's. I still think it's interesting enough to discuss, even if it has its issues.

At first i wasn’t really getting your point about what furnace fun was bad, but then i heard brentilda’s name

I don't ever remember having trouble with Furnace Fun. Then again, Ad a kid, I was one of those nerds that studied the strategy guide before I played the game.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Nah, I know lots of folks who used strategy guides on this part, but I personally think that makes it a bit TOO straightforward. No worries, though.

YEAH YEAH YEAHHHHHH! Screw this pop quiz bs. I really appreciate you trying to take a look at this aspect of one of the best n64 3d platformers, but yeah I think it's almost impossible to experience Furnace Fun again for the first time. My very first playthrough of BK this quiz dead ass stopped me from progressing to the end cuz I barely paid attention to anything. But after beating it, it's not the worst or the most difficult thing ever just an annoying surprise. Great job, dude!

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

I'm happy you enjoyed the video, sir, especially since you made your sentiments toward the quiz show very clear in the past! Thank you for the kind words!

Furnace Fun was always a bit of a family challenge that was hilarious when I was a kid but I do find it can throw off new players who walked in suddenly wondering why they're being quized on stuff they weren't paying attention to.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

It comes together more fluidly if you've gone through the levels a lot, which might make the game more appealing as a whole. It's Rare own way of getting you to play the game more and more, perhaps?

@hatwearinggamer

Жыл бұрын

@@PostMesmeric Possibly. I better thing to do might have been to play a higher note door before it forcing more exploration before trying?

I played the entire game thinking this was the actual end of the game. I was not prepared for gruntilda 😭😭

@PostMesmeric

6 ай бұрын

I know at least one other person who found Grunty's Furnace Fun to be the "true ending" of the game, so you're not alone!

i played the game three times on my phone until the world 9. now I want to complete it on Xbox and thought 1 know much about the game.this quiz is just from hell but i like the idea. the biggest problems are the Minigames. i even hated them wennsee where in the levels

This whole thing felt like they realized the game was too short, and as a result needed to tack on something to make it go longer. But I'm hardly someone with nostalgia for 3d platformers, so there's that too.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

If they removed the board game entirely, I still feel there would be enough content in Banjo-Kazooie to be a complete package. This seemed like an experiment on their part, because their old games like Donkey Kong Country 2 had quiz shows too (though not nearly at the scope shown in Banjo-Kazooie). If this was in fact a way to add more content beyond another level or two, I do believe this was a creative way to do it.

You try time travelling to your favorite childhood memory of beating banjo kazooie but this quiz is waiting there to catch your impostor ass.

The song is an absolute banger though...

Wasn't this like a parody of The Weakest Link?

I loved it and was always excited to get to it whenever I replayed

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

I'm a trivia buff myself, so I definitely find it fun. It was kind of bittersweet digging deep into this part of the game and uncovering the faults, I'd say, but it's still creative enough to appreciate.

i love the idea but hell the questions are way to hard. hiw the hell should i remember pictures where i can barely see anything

It fits the game thematically, and honestly I found it fun, but it does obliterate the pacing. Especially for being right before the final boss fight.

@PostMesmeric

Жыл бұрын

Aside from Brentilda, the pacing seems to be the most common issue with the game.

4:22 is this a neurotypical thing? I internalised stuff like this really easily, and I guess it's neurotypicals that couldn't internalise this sort of thing on their first playthrough.

@Venomous9

Жыл бұрын

(completely agreed on the Grunty spaces tho, they suck if you're not writing down all the facts and suchlike)

more fuel for the considerashun pile, let's go. and, edit here, I paused the video RIGHT before you said your comment on obzervant players, so. wuups. one theory I have iz rooted in the hate uv backtracking, az, if you listen to most uv the complaints about banjo tooie, a mekanikally superior game with the ability to *grab ledges,* the highest complaint iz about the aforemenshund backtracking. which iz a silly komplaint, az you don't, *reelly* need to track back if you don't want to, unless you have a bad need to, wut's the wurd, repleet it. I think these people dont like metroid games. and my theory az to WHY they don't like metroid games will relate to the furnace fun. IN metroid, and tooie, samus and banjo are, wimps. skinee twigz uv creatures hoo couldn't harm a fly. hunting around the landscape however, they find tools, climbing huuks, compreshun kits tu shrink down, fight modules, life extenshunz, and a montananz best frend, *gun.* HOWEVER, the ammunishun and medpaks are in short supply, and bullet packs are scarce, BUT- during Their travels, they keep finding ammunishun packs, buried in wallz, placed in florz, across canyons, on cliffs, and jenerally placed in inconvenient placez, but, again, they have been collecting traversal toolz, so that they can go back and get these thingz. IF they remember. and NAOW we get to the problem. remember. 3 sillablez that lie at the heart uv metroid. you NEED guud recall to play these games, or a camera, or a notepad, and that iz what tooie iz, memorizashun, THE GAME. exept, it's not that bad, az most uv the stuff needed to beat the game iz not mandatory. furnace fun IZ mandatory haow-evur, it iz, memorizashun, THE REQUIRED GAME. if this waz too long, and you didn't read it, stupid people don't like furnace fun (and tooie) kuz it makes them think.

I hate it. You basically learnt the questions by repeatedly failing at them. The minigames are frustrating with the terrible camera mechanics

It's all fun and games, unless you got the gam in latin america. Nobody spoke english back then, so it comes down to luck.

*_skill issue_*

its trash,having to remember or write stuff,play again the challenges,and music stuff.... what if u didnt pay atention? i want to plataform and search stuff not play mario party...this level its totally out of place,and make the game go from a 9 to a 5,making it anyoing