What I want on shmup: 1. Give me a reason to replay outside of score. 2. Crispy sound effects. 3. GRAPHICS and good visuals. 4. Weirdness.

@windup13ird60

Жыл бұрын

What are some good examples of replay hooks besides score? I'm new so I haven't gotten past playing games for the 1cc yet.

@soratheorangejuicemascot5809

Жыл бұрын

@@windup13ird60 something like unlockables and collections.

@Andres5045

Жыл бұрын

@@windup13ird60 funny ships

It's so funny as how you feel about graphics is how I feel about music in Shmups, which is probably an even more rare opinion. There's something visceral about great music that keeps you pumped while playing and all of my favorites have great tracks. Part of it is I grew up playing during an era where graphics weren't as impressive (well they were for the time I guess), but even basic chip tunes can sound beautiful when well composed like Life Force and Gradius were on the NES. To this day I have a harder time getting into some of the newer bullet hells as even with searing graphics and tight gameplay, bland or uninspired music just doesn't get me pumped to play. I often will play something else and turn down the actual game. Kind of like cranking offspring while driving fast 😅. One other fun point is that starting with 16bit games, they put a lot of effort into graphics on Shmups back then. That genre had some of the most impressive graphics on the consoles all the way through the Saturn. It's almost as if once Shmups became more niche, and larger developers like Konami and Cave stopped making them, the visuals and presentation went along with it as most Shmups became smaller Indie games with just the occasional blockbuster like Ikaruga and Gradius V from big developers.

@KugutsuYushiro

3 жыл бұрын

I think shmups having good music is way more often already in the games. Like it's already the norm. I definitely agree, but it seems that most people, devs included, already understand this. Where as graphics and art design is still a little more hit or miss from title to title for various reasons

@chadmolitor6691

3 жыл бұрын

Just gonna say the music suuuuuccckks on some of the modern bullet hell games. Between that and some of the cutesy designs I often can't get into them. It's like they skip out on the music, or maybe the best composers are all retired lol.

@KugutsuYushiro

3 жыл бұрын

@@chadmolitor6691 Like, western dev'd ones?

@SuperLlama42

Жыл бұрын

In both shmups and fighting games, good music is incredibly important.

Graphics shouldn't be confused with art style. I understand graphics more as the way how visuals are technically processed, while the art style is the individual manner of depicting certain things within the boundaries of the technical limitations. I value art style much higher than graphics. For example, BlazeBlue CF has absolutely outdated graphics but it's imo still one of the most beautiful games ever created due to it's absolutely gorgeous art style.

I think it's important to point out the difference between just saying graphics and something more specific like the art style or art design, the latter two of which is what I think possibly you're moreso talking about. Even for JRPGs many of them actually haven't had great graphics but DO have great art design(though FF7R has both)

Great piece. That part about the visuals (medals, explosions, score etc) acting as a reward in and of themselves was fascinating. Something I guess I've always kind of got on a fundamental level but maybe had never thought about consciously / been able to articulate until watching this.

Great points. I was in it for the visuals when it came to Cuphead, so it came as a very pleasant surprise to me how well designed its boss battles are. It really is a very good game (though maybe not an all-time great in its subgenre), which elevates it to something special. But you're right, if it would have looked super bland and basic, most people (including me) wouldn't have cared in the first place and even if I would have started playing it, it might not have been able to hold my attention. So visuals/aesthetics are part of a game's feedback and experience for me, going beyond just drawing my attention.

3 platforms historically sold systems on the quality of their shmups: PC Engine, Mega Drive, and the Amiga. (The Saturn was sold on Model 2 games before anyone gets cute). All three of those platforms used shmups as BENCHMARK games: BANSHEE, AGONY, THUNDER FORCE 3 AND 4, R TYPE, GATE OF THUNDER, LORDS OF THUNDER, GAIARES, SAPPHIRE etc. Gameplay will always be foremost for STGs but we need to be pushing for experiences that will grab people's attention and get them into the genre in the first place.

It's more than just graphics. In Touhou, bullets are more than just the "shit you shoot" and "shit you dodge". They also tell you something about the characters shooting them. What does Reimu shoot? Homing talismans or needles or rainbow enery orbs (Spirit Sign "Fantasy Seal"). What does Marisa shoot? Stars, lasers, magic missiles, or a massive laser (Love Sign "Master Spark"). What does Flandre shoot? Various bullets and a laser that acts as a giant sword (Taboo "Laevateinn"). What does Koishi shoot? Heart-shaped bullets (Instinct "Release of the Id", Suppression "Superego", Rekindled "Embers of Love"), bullets that bloom as roses (Philosophy of the Despised, Subterranean Rose), and a polygraph (Response "Youkai Polygraph"). What does Mamizou shoot? Bullets shaped like frogs, birds, and mini humans (she's an ancient and powerful Bakedanuki who plays with transformations). What does Clownpiece shoot? Stars, stripes, and MOONS. What does Sanae shoot? Snakes, frogs, and lasers arranged in such a way you feel like you're walking through a dry path after a body of water was split (Sea Opening "Moses's Miracle). In contrast, the only thing I remember about Mushihimesama is a mess of purple. Raystorm was just a mess of bullets that tell me nothing about either side. Same with Strikers 1945 II. This is why I never went down that so-called Touhou-to-Shmup-pipeline, because what awaits me on the other end is just a tiresome mess of "shit to shoot" and "shit to dodge".

Thanks for making this video Mark, always good to hear your input in these kind of stuff. As I'm creating a shmup now, this really helps

Love your quality content ! Keep up the good job

Usually I listen to your podcast - style videos as audio only, but that game is so gorgeous I watched it the entire time. The creativity in the bullet design is mesmerizing!

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

I m glad to hear it! I also recently have stepped up my video equipment so I m really excited to experiment with it for more visuals and stuff

@100hundert

3 жыл бұрын

And I completely agree. Another style I really don't like is that "futuristic simulation wireframe" look some shmups have - Dodonpachi Maximum for example. Even in games that I enjoy gameplay wise, like rrootage or warning forever, the style just ruins it for me. It all looks so hollow and generic, like it's trying to simulate old vector screens. Battle Garegga is a perfect example of a game where everything looks like it has weight and impact. Bosses have large turrets, rusty surfaces and menacing arms that try to hit you. The whole world seems desolate and terrifying. Ibara was a perfect blend of Raizing - style mechanical monstrosities and colorful Cave aesthetics.

This may be the video you make that pushes me to make a video response-- not to argue with you, but there's just SO MANY points you're bringing up here that I want to continue and contribute to the discussion. 1. I think this video dove tails very nicely with your SHMUPS ARE NOT DISPOSABLE video because the essential appeal is the same: that the shmups community has lost sight of what the standards are after being thrown in a niche ghetto for 30 years. 2. It's funny how we understand the importance of MUSIC in drawing a player to a game and keeping them there, but we've been fed indie and doujin content for so long that we expect graphics to be overcome automatically. 3. I subject my friends to shmups often and only two have ever been re requested by name: EINHANDER and SINE MORA. Two 3D shmups with amazing presentations, great music, and graphics that are industry standard for their time. These things do more to create new STG fans than a thousand interchangeable doujin Raizing and CAVE tributes.

My take on it is that aesthetics are what truly matters, while graphics just help you get to the aesthetic you want. Good aesthetics can last for years past the shelf life of the graphics that make them up.

6:46 THEY SNUCK A SWASTIKA IN WITH THE BULLETS LMAO BRUH

@100hundert

3 жыл бұрын

Heated gamer moment

What is most important is you can see what you need to do without any compromise but graphical design is extremely important if you are going to pick a game you are going to really concentrate on and spend a lot of time with.

Wow... 2:58 You nailed that talk with Exa Arcadia CEO with the Touhou viability by backing with visual polish form some fan games compared to the official ones. Also, I kind of felt that during that time period years ago with that talk about Touhou, that stemmed more from visual art style perception and preferences, which is different from visual quality and functionality. 2 years since, we have games like Aka & Blue Type R, Strania EX, Chaos Code Exact Xeno Attack, and Shikondo Red Purgatory for Exa Arcadia that can be appealing to diverse audiences.

One thing I'd like to see is more thematic variety in aesthetics. So many games are either militaristic or moe that exceptions like Guwange and The Void Rains Upon Her Heart really stand out for their theme alone. I totally disagree on the rewards part though. Part of what draws me to shmups is the relative lack of reward, compared to roguelites or RPGs. There's no temptation to play in un-fun ways just to get some trinket, my focus is entirely on enjoying the present moment. Reading a complex pattern and placing myself correctly feels better than a thousand explosions.

Totally agree with your point about competant but bland art being much worse than incompetant but characterful. This point stands across many mediums especially with music production (electronic genres aside) where too many bands think polished=good.

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Yes exactly, I see this a lot with indie games too that try to do a sort of generic polished 3d look

To say that visuals don't matter is actually not intelectual, all artwork, in this case game artwork is an expression of the intellect, good visual representation can tell much more than words, it can go directly to our unconscious or subconscious leaving us with feelings or messages that can be very powerful, the best example of that is Silent Hill 2, everything represented in that game has meaning, and is striking, the visuals are extremely important in the message that game is trying to convey. If you ever want to check an extremely good explanation of the meaning of silent hill 2 check out the channel "Reinstall Paul", he did an excellent job explaining it. So yeah, visuals matter and i would say perhaps much more in a shmup because since there isn't so much exposition in story you need to tell the tale with visuals, make the game compelling and exciting with the visuals of the levels, boss design, enemy design, ship design, unlike in a rpg like wizardry or the old D&D where the details are expressed in text and status.

I'm always gameplay over graphics, but presentation really does matter a lot with first impressions. TBH I almost didn't get Rolling Gunner due to its visuals. But after playing it I learned to like it since the visuals don't get in the way of the killer gameplay! Insane amounts of medals is so rewarding. And yes as much as I adore official Touhou visuals with their charm, it's time to move on. Just hire the Danmaku Fest artists lol

11.53 man that was spooky . I was sat here thinking about a slot machine aspect in a Shmup for fun exactly as you said that. Say .. pick up 3 of the same power up in a random slot spin and then the game goes mad into hyper annihilation death laser mode!. I always thought that would be cool. A lucky spin to save a run / last life could be soo hype! A jackpot could set off a dark matter universe bomb for an instant 1cc! Lol.

Graphics DO matter. As well as the art style.

Music is the kicker for me. Visuals matter a lot, but after a while for me that's just how the game looks, unless it's sublimely beautiful, butt ugly, or just fails to communicate what's going on. What's far more important for me is tunes that never get old over the course of many runs. I never would have discovered the genre if not for accidentally finding the music of Thunder Force 4, and I never would have stuck with Imperishable Night as long as I have if not for the insanely good music. Whenever I try out a batch of shmups, one of the biggest factors in which ones I stick with is how much I like the stage 1 theme.

All very true. Don‘t forget sound, though. If you look at the number of ‚silver lining‘ covers on youtube, you know a good part of the reason why Eschatos has so many fans.

I think you are onto something, the game shown in the video has ALOT of sales compared to shmups based on the review count. If you think about it shmups are pure action and in the action genre therefore game feedback is more important than the systems,

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

Absolutely!!

I swear you did this topic before. Hmm. I’m not complaining though!

Great video, and yes a lot of us like that moe style lol (as do a lot hate it) If you're thinking of doing more FDF2 (what we call the game being played) then I'll just say that you need to move up on the "take back your soul" portion, if you don't grab the blue soul you die Another thing that you may not know is that pretty much all Touhou games and fangames have a skip button (usually ctrl in official and a lot of fangames, or if not, then it's usually x or s) so after you've read dialogue that may help you a notable amount for playing again!

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Aha yeah that section has always confused me! Thanks for the info, I do plan to get a hard clear of the game :-) I am aware of the beautiful skip button ha, but forgot to bind it with antimicro ha :-) thanks for the advice on that section!

@Lily-white

3 жыл бұрын

@@TheElectricUnderground No problem! I just saw the game and had a feeling something dumb would happen at that part when I realised it went to the end

I personally agree, but I honestly don't like how FDF or it's sequel look. It's more of a personal preference, but I think of Touhou aesthetically to be similar to Kirby early on - especially with the LLS Stage 6 boss background and all, where-as FDF seems to steer in a direction I can only call "shiny anime game" - there's nothing wrong with it, but I'd actually prefer if Touhou characters looked less human and more like caricatures, which is how I thought they looked in the earlier games. Not to say ZUN is much better nowadays, though - I hate how most of his recent games and even character portraits look, and the fact that even FDF at least doesn't have visibility issues, but I personally just don't like this game's aesthetic. I am sort of weird in this regard though, as I also really like stuff like prerendered visuals in games, so my aesthetical tastes are questionable, but ah well. Great video! As for Rolling Gunner, I've not played it, but I really like the font used.

@technicolormischief-maker5683

Жыл бұрын

I think the point made at 12:24 very much applies to the earlier Touhou artstyles- there’s a sense of coziness and approachability to it, and I quite miss the emphasis on seasonal aesthetics in the older Windows games. I don’t outright dislike the modern portraits though, at least not most of them. Zun’s art has improved pretty much objectively after all- it’s just that it happened to move in the direction of more manga-esque flat shading as it did so.

@marx4538

Жыл бұрын

@@technicolormischief-maker5683 I don't think ZUN's art has improved. He could do usual anime art pretty well with the PC-98 games and their box arts, so I assume some of the issues that happened after that came from development issues or something like that, or maybe attempts at experimentation, as for one, EoSD Meiling's hand isn't even finished on her portrait. A lot of the modern faces reuse faces or at least use really similar ones which I think is the biggest problem with them, as while there were some questionable results, earlier art had each character have unique expressions.

Try StarSceptre on iOS as a unique shmup. It’s a bit of a hot mess and the gameplay needs tuning and modern features but it’s got an impressive story and art. It’s pre-Danmaku in terms of bullets but it has a good amount of variety; difficult as heck. The cut scenes are extensive and mesh with the stage art and designs very well.

Touhou has always primarily served as a function for Zun to put out his music. He even makes the soundtrack first, then designs the character personalities and bullet patters on the song he's made. So to put it frankly; Zun Simply doesn't care, and has faith in the fans to make their own liberties and inspiration. The fact that the in-game art is so bare-bones lended a lot to fan works to take their own liberties and have different takes, which promoted lots of discussion and creativity. There are excpetions, like touhou 12.8 which has art done by the illustrator who drew the manga print that leads up to the game itself. Also the fighting games, which require professional sprite work as to be understandable while playing, compared to his shmups which lean far more into the pragmatic art style. Touhou as a whole is just such a massive and influential "open source brand" that zun doesn't feel a strong need to start worrying now when he didn't need to to get popular in the first place. However that doesn't mean more effort on that front wouldn't be appreciated. If I'm gonna be honest, I'm impressed his art skills havent improved for so long, it's like he never draws outside of the work he does for the games, which might even be true. In the end, I appreciate the music far more than the art in these games, because lackluster art, with the right groundwork is great material for fans to take the lead, but lackluster music is just shitty music. people dont remix shitty music. While the Fantastic Danmaku Festival games are gorgious, I still respect that zun feels no need for hiring help, it's a charming stubborness I guess.

@TheElectricUnderground

Жыл бұрын

With the touhou series zun is leaving so much on the table. Even if it is just a vehicle for his tunes, the tunes could get even larger reach if he expanded the quality of the game series :-)

@technicolormischief-maker5683

Жыл бұрын

The Touhou games are not just a vehicle for Zun’s music, that’s an old myth. If that were the case, he likely wouldn’t be making the games in the first place- he’s released several music albums with original music and arranges of game tracks as is. He wouldn’t fill those albums with stories and musings based on his own personal philosophy. He wouldn’t have studied the history of the shrines around his home, of japanese religious and mythological lore, in order to lend nuance of that kind to the characters and world of the series. He wouldn’t put so much thought and effort into making that nuance consistently comment on matters of the real world. He wouldn’t have written multiple official books and mangas, or an entire short story for a fanmade album. He wouldn’t have loved this series as deeply as he has for all this time. If you want Touhou’s production value to increase? Focus on the gameplay. It seems to be commonly accepted that the recent Touhou games are weaker in terms of patterns and polish, and I’d love to see Zun return to some of the smaller details that he’s let fall to the wayside. But please, let the aesthetic be; let the fangames push the boat out on crazy visuals if that’s what you want. Or maybe bring on artists willing to try and replicate a similar artstyle with greater skill and polish, if you absolutely must. I would not have fallen in love with this series if it had looked like every other “moe” series of its current scale, rather than the cozier look and feel born of the obscure developer Zun used to be. The man’s personal touch matters greatly to this series, and the negotiation between his perspective and that of the fans serves as its lifeblood. There’s a reason why many of us are hostile to any suggestions of Zun taking the main series in a more commercial direction. There *are* plenty such fans who dislike Zun’s artstyle, and that dislike is understandable, but I personally would be quite sad to see it vanish completely. I don’t think it’d solve any of the series’ recent issues either. (Also, his artstyle has absolutely improved with time- have you not seen the art from the more recent games?)

Very Nice 🏆🏆🏆

I agree, video games are a visual art so visuals are part of the book and not just the cover. Obviously reasonable minds can disagree on what is aesthetically pleasing. I kind of dislike the over the top casino aesthetic. I kind of hate the giant chips in Ketsui. Garegga nails it for me. Life Force on the NES looks and sounds great to me. The port you were harping on is R-Type Dimensions EX I believe. Thankfully you can switch to the original graphics on the fly with that one. I’d still love to see a review from you on that. We don’t have to talk about the 3D graphics, just accuracy, lag and features :)

This video arrived in good timing for me. I just got done taking down the Halo games on Legendary, and I cannot stand for the life of me just how difficult it is to identify enemies, landmarks and just look at the general scenery as the series moves forward. Halo 4 and 5 are the most egregious if just because of the stupid amount of visual flair there is on the screen that serves no purpose. There is no reason to overbloat the size of your game in GB if most of the GB has no purpose anyway. Yes. Halo CE looks aged, even moreso with the innaccurate modern day ports but at least it has an appealing art style and nothing is killing your eyes. Now. For shmups. The Touhou series is a perfect example and i'm glad you decided to use FDF II as the footage. Touhou's 2-5 are still great looking pixel art games with satisfying explosions, abstract dream-like backgrounds and a "feeling you only find at home" Then Touhou 6 falls flat on its face with an art style similar to the PC98 games before it but with poor execution out of attempting to make it look realistic with Photoshop oil brushes, overdetailed pieces of clothing/hair as well as too little background elements. While typing this i just rememebered CHO REN SHA 68K, a game that is less than an MB large and only has one background yet it looks leagues ahead of so many games today since the graphics services both the player's gaming and eyes. Back to Halo. It pisses me off that people hate how Infinite looks. Yes, Craig's face is stupid and some textures do need more detail along with things like the Phantom being less drunk. But if Infinite comes out with 20 billion fucking lights on my face i'm not buying it. I can't stand these eye melting games anymore that favor awesome appearance over actual practicality and unique art styles. I came to play a game not interact with a movie.

@prankster101

3 жыл бұрын

What would you say is the art-style for SDOJ? It looks more cell-shaded than pixel art imho...

@lunaria_stg

3 жыл бұрын

My Pastebin reply as YT keeps silencing me: 8eL9G9cd

@prankster101

3 жыл бұрын

@@lunaria_stg i can't see the comment.

@lunaria_stg

3 жыл бұрын

@@prankster101 Put that string after pastebin dot com slash. I can't put URLs as YT will hide the comment.

@prankster101

3 жыл бұрын

@@lunaria_stg just write your reply here...

I used to believe graphics didnt matter Because when people say graphics they talk about how high def something is And completely ignore aestetics And I dont care at all about how high def graphics are But i now hold the opinion that the visual quality of the game is extremely important, no more or less than any other part

I was just thinking about how much I hate doing backgrounds and how I need to figure something out and then I stumbled across this video 🤣. I like the SNES style era of graphics personally. The 3d style often causes problems with foreground and background confusion most of the time. It is pretty much hard wired into us to judge these games by looking at them. However, there's been so many games I've played that have been awesome experiences but didn't have the best looking graphics but then also games that went too 'artsy' and you could tell the gameplay was a secondary consideration. Aesthetics wise I feel it's all a matter of what you're drawn to. Personally I head toward things like Zero ranger, devil engine etc. Anything pixel with a more nitty gritty tone to it. Although I will literally play everything shmup related though... Although between gameplay and graphics I choose gameplay every time - it's just unfortunate that you can miss out on amazing games because they didn't look right. I've had games that I put off playing for ages because they didn't look appealing and when I finally got round to playing them I was kicking myself because of how great they were. When the opposite happens I'm just annoyed 🤣.

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah graphics are so important to the genre, it s obvious and yet not as focused on as you d think ha

but arent shmups simple games?? jk, i dont knownwhat it is with cave games, but most times everything just works. visuals, sound even story..

Based take.

K what do you think about the Cotton Rock 'n" Roll: Superlative Night Dreams? Bland as heck right? I mean, maybe its kinda cute, I'm still gonna give it a chance, maybe it'll improve a bit before release, but after Reboot, what a disappointment... (Why!? Just different studios I guess.) And I assume its the same engine as Umihara Kawase Refresh! which also looks less appealing than older games in the series...

@TheElectricUnderground

2 жыл бұрын

Oh snap I need to check it out, I haven't seen it yet.

@mrhobs

2 жыл бұрын

​@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah check it out if ya wanna barf! (Ha, jk, maybe it'll be decent.) To cleanse the palate, check out the extensively remastered Pocky & Rocky Reshrined! That's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen! True to the original pixel art, but mostly, if not completely redrawn! Can't wait! EDIT: Arguably one of the games LEAST in need of a remaster... life's not fair, heh.

Not a SHMUP but Marvel vs Capcom Infinite is patient zero for decent gameplay with god awful presentation. I agree with the user below. The retro aesthetic is cool but I'm sick of so many low effort ones visually and musically. I want more Devil Engine, Blazing Chrome, Dead Cells, Bloodstained, etc. looking and sounding games. Less Broforce and Ratalaika Games

It seems like most shmups that use 3d graphics just look bad. I'd much rather play a game from 2002 with good sprite artwork and great design. And on the other hand, seems like too many modern 2d shmups go for a crappy "retro" style without knowing how to make a good looking game. Just take me back to 1997 and I'll be fine.

Absolutely agree... Most early to mid 80's arcade games look garish by today's standards.

@neontetra1000

3 жыл бұрын

?!... garish /ˈɡɛːrɪʃ/ Learn to pronounce adjective obtrusively bright and showy; lurid. "garish shirts in all sorts of colours" Maybe galaga. I’d say the rest were far from that adjective. I’d say bland would be a more Appropriate term.

I had to pause the vid at the SF5 comment . I totally agree .Gameplay wise it's alright ,as for the look of it i think its easily one of the worst looking .From most of the characters having huge feet and completely disproportionate ,Kens bananas for hair ,and Akuma looking like a flower or the cowedly lion and completely not menacing at all . A few characters they got right. Raiden up to aces for me has always nailed the right look ,just the way the ships dive and explode .They street fighter fived Raiden 5 with the whole generic look of alomost everything and then shoved a story in there for no reason that gets really annoying .

@ahmedcastro9866

3 жыл бұрын

You really dislike huge feet and hands? Man I love how disproportionate they are, they look more aggressive and cool. Just look at Makoto from sf3. So cool steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=552809526

@TheElectricUnderground

3 жыл бұрын

Oh that s a great point. Yeah I think raiden five is bland and generic. But raiden fighters aces on 360 looks a lot better (and is much better gameplay wise). I think with 3d models it s really important to give them texture and that sort of thing. Also yes, the character models in sf4 are awful and silly, sf4 has the better 3d models.

I kinda like the way deathsmiles 2 looks, cause it feels like everything is made of cheap Christmas crap

Video games are not book! They're graphic novels!

I don't call this type of game any of the things you said, I call them space shooters (yes, even the flying loli ones).

See... I find this game quite aesthetically unappealing, especially compared to late Cave, Taito, Treasure, or Irem games. Why on earth are little girls shooting lasers and bullets? What's the justification? Where are we? What's happening? It seems polished, sure, but aesthetically I find this uninspired and random. Like someone just slapped random anime girls into a shmup. Doesn't have the presentation polish of Dan 3 or Zero Ranger.

@ARGHWUT

3 жыл бұрын

Sounds like you don't want the fantasy setting full of anime girls in your shmups. That makes you a different demographic and that's fine but not really an argument against the game itself. All the questions in your first paragraph are answered rather thoroughly in the series, for what it's worth.

@alexrushdy2751

3 жыл бұрын

@@ARGHWUT It's more an argument about its commercial viability and aesthetic appeal as well as its visual congruence/coherence. Esprade has floating humans shooting lasers but it justifies it on the box (hey! this is basically Akira with a twist!). Wings of Wor has a flying human in a fantasy setting but its justified because he has wings and biomechanical armour. Kid Icarus justifies itself through greek mythology. It's coherent. Touhou, at a glance, doesn't make sense. Your average person would see a touhou box and have no idea it's a shmup. That's all I'm saying.

@ARGHWUT

3 жыл бұрын

And I think it's a shame that personal requirement for a surface-visible justification for fantasy elements has put you off in an era where Touhou has decided it's not doing that anymore. They're very good games and their setting and aesthetic is so beloved to so many for a reason.

@alexrushdy2751

3 жыл бұрын

@@ARGHWUT I'd argue it's not beloved by many, it's beloved by a niche few. I'm also not hating on touhou, but I think if shmups want to grow as a genre I think aesthetics need to be considered holistically. Like, there's nothing wrong with liking touhou, I just think it's an example of why shmups have become such a small niche genre.

@ARGHWUT

3 жыл бұрын

It is niche but the series as a whole has had a bigger cultural impact than any other shmup (EDIT: excepting like Space Invaders, Galaga and other first-wave stuff that was huge because shmups were an actually modern genre at the time) unless you're talking about the shmup community exclusively. It's a huge basis for doujin media and most of it isn't games. IIRC it's the second biggest tag on pixiv with 2.18 million pieces of derivative art, only behind original work. And I think there's room in the genre for something unique and home-grown like Touhou. I doubt you're interested though, so I won't give you any more of the spiel. I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind, so have a nice day.