Update: I have recieved a lot messages that people have been told the same "advice" from Bad Axe, had issues with their saws, and that they were also told to try and fix it themselves by stoning the teeth. Other messages have been saying that folded backs dont act like this. Only Bad Axe does because they don't put enough pressure folding the back over the plate

@siwood1981

6 ай бұрын

It’s a new expensive saw Mr. Bad Axe! shouldn’t have to do anything but take it out of the package. What are you not understanding…

@BatCaveCreations

4 ай бұрын

@cullywilliams397 that is what I am hearing also :( the ideal saws are the ones made prior to Mark selling the company to them. It is a shame too because I also help them on a pedestal and it was a goal to own one. Not any more, it was a let down in more than just 1 way. So trust me i understand. For personal messages too, if you go to the about on people's channels you will see their email listed. We'll most of them some of the big big time people don't have it listed haha mine is lol

@Seconds2midnight

4 ай бұрын

Great videos appreciate what you’re doing, it’s really nice having some references to look at before pulling the trigger on some of these tools. With so many out there the choices can be difficult. You’re doing gods work haha. Keep it up!

@Seconds2midnight

4 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations I hadn’t realized he had sold the company to them. I was very confused yesterday and today I’m kind of disappointed because I really held the company up there with some of the greats in my mind. Just for how much I had seen the company talked about. I agree, it was definitely a goal to own one. Now not so much. The older ones are in lots of books and videos and I’m sure are fantastic pieces of craftsmanship. I was flipping through a Micheal Pekovich book and notice one of their saws in the background and decided to pull the trigger haha. The newer ones the craftsmanship and appreciation for the tool might be a little off from what it used to be. If I was going to buy one of the saws it would be an older one. It’s unfortunately to see people having these experiences but I’m glad people are talking about it. I was hoping I was wrong about my assumptions and had missed something. Thank you for being honest with your reviews I’m sure I speak for everyone that has subscribed when I say that.

@BatCaveCreations

4 ай бұрын

@Otter.w thank you! I appreciate that! I feel better now about posting. Wasn't easy lol but now alot of people are sharing their experience and they also thought they were alone. It's a shame. I do hope Bad Axe shapes up tho, they can't treat people like this.

Always wanted a bad axe not anymore and not because it was a bad saw but because of the way they deal with an issue

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That's my issue too. If it would have been "crap our bad, we'll fix it" 100% different story. I've had companies do that and it means so much more and looks better.

@shaunkirby8506

6 ай бұрын

Absolutely we can accept a tool with a fault that’s slipped through the quality control but to try and make out like it’s you that’s the issue is not good I’ve always said good customer service isn’t getting it right all the time it’s how you deal with it when something goes wrong

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Spot on!!!! I've had a few mistakes with tool companies and they make it right. That what makes me go back. I've never gotten a mistake and said I'm never going back because of the mistake.

@victoryak86

3 ай бұрын

Companies should always beware of this kind of response to a problem, regardless of what it is. Their unwillingness to take responsibility for a defect in their product, instead blaming the customer, will bring harm mainly to themselves and their reputation! Based on this I would likely not consider their products not because they’re bad necessarily but because they treat customers poorly. That was a really bad move by them.

I work in IT. I know this isn't related, but in the IT field, I have seen companies that will consistently claim that their product ISN'T at fault, will over-explain why its not their fault and then will justify why they SHOULD charge you for their services but, out of good faith, will ultimately replace the part, free of charge. When you get the item back, it works within your expectations. This is a tactic that many companies use.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Your right and it's a shame.. why can we just be honest. That goes alot farther than acting like this

My take: the plate was bad and they knew it but didn’t want to admit it. Change the plate, fixed the problem. They clocked the nuts by not tightening down all the way which is bush league. Plate movement for folded backs is not inherent to that style. From what I can tell, they are not closing the slot enough to allow it to be under tension. I have 200 yr old vintage folded back saws that are under plenty of tension and plate is stiff when cutting. I was initially going to use folded backs for my saws but I’m not now simply because it was too expensive. I spent a lot of time with the guys who did it making sure enough pressure was applied during the folding process so that it’d grip the plate with enough force to keep it held in forever unless you really smacked it against something by accident. On the other hand, If the slot is closed too much, it will be difficult or impossible to fit the backs. It’s possible they are not closing the slot enough to make assembly easier but the saws are suffering greatly if that’s the case. There is some art and some science to folding backs and they seem to have lost both. Finally, the purpose of the back is to keep the plate straight and stiff and their argument is completely opposite and wrong.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! Now I want to try a diff folded back lol Side note: I got my saw order from you yesterday!! Beautiful work man, very impressed with everything!! I'll be posting about them!!

Wow. I'm rethinking some purchases I've been planning.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Ya I'm sorry man :(

@clintoncox3887

6 ай бұрын

@EricMeyerMaker Big fan of your channel, what purchases were you making?

@EricMeyerMaker

6 ай бұрын

@@clintoncox3887 thanks for watching! I've been considering the kerfing plane and frame saw.

@James_T_Kirk_1701

6 ай бұрын

@@EricMeyerMaker I reached out to Bad Axe and they wanted nearly a hundred bucks for just a the kerfing plane blade. I told them to pound sand.

@billbris

5 ай бұрын

I have the Bad Axe kerfing plane and their Roubo frame saw. I would suggest you look at Blackburn instead. I also own a large Bad Axe rip saw. The rip saw is fantastic, however, my customer support experience with Bad Axe is very similar to that described in the video. I am now thinking of a new cross cut panel saw. I am not considering Bad Axe for just this reason. This is just my own experience so take it for what it is worth.

Well Bad Axe Tools Works...y'all got some 'splainin to do.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

They will prob just dig their heels in and keep saying it was me lol

Because the blade was bent or curved in 2 different planes, no pun intended i wouldn't have paid return shipping but i know you wanted it back. It was defective out of the box. I understand. You gave good information and opinions on this especially sawing full depth to the back to test the cut. Good video with your honest opinion, thanks for sharing👍.

Thank you for your courage to produce this video and post it. I own several saws LN Caracas saw, LN dove tail saw, Bad Axe 16” Tenon Saw, and my near to my ❤️ Florip dove tail saw. My bad axe saw was purchased before the change of hands at bad axe saws.

@BatCaveCreations

5 ай бұрын

I wish I know about Florip saws when I got into hand tools. I hear they are amazing saws. His friend is selling some of his saws in the Can I Have It facebook group they get expensive tho, understandably

$450 dollars for a saw, they should be willing to eat $20 on shipping for a defective product. Shame on you bad axe, shame 🤨🧐

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

But the saw was "perfect" hahahah

@SaintFredrocks

6 ай бұрын

They sent him a $450 saw that never had a chance of cutting correctly. They should have given him a partial refund for all of his trouble and fired the guy that is supposed to do test-cuts after he finishes sharpening the saw. Instead, they do this. I don't see a long future for the new company. It is a shame too.

@MakeMistakeZ

6 ай бұрын

I had the same thought hahah

@cybertick2

6 ай бұрын

My first modern saw purchase was for 2 bad axe saws. I spent nearly $750 which included shipping. I was concerned about funds being taken from my account after the 2 month wait time (may have been like 6 weeks.....was like 5 or so years ago). Anyway I asked that they bill me for everything right then and there. 3 months and no saws. So I call asking for an update. The person on the phone said I have emailed you letting you know that you still owe $25 shipping. I had no such email. Was told to check spam folder. I worked in I.T. field and knew how to look in a spam or trash or junk folder for an email. I assume they had typed my email address incorrectly. They never attempted to call letting me know the order was ready, just waiting on me to pay for shipping. Terrible CS too, the lady yelled at me on the phone. Anyhow, I paid. Got the saws. Both were curved along the tooth line. both cut a curve. To this day they sit unused. But hey, I know a few saw makers and am more than happy with saws I have purchased from them.😉

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Oooh ouch :( they wouldn't take a return? Or you just didn't bother? I'm with you too, if we are in that price range I'd rather go with one of the Makers I know.

Don't deal with badaxe, got it

Excellent video Jamie thanks for the update. Up here in Canada there is not a lot of options to get premium saws without shipping and bad axe is one of them as lee valley carries them. This may have saved me from a purchase I would have regretted. On a different note try lowering your board in your vice when sawing that vibration you were seeing would likely be eliminated if you drop your board lower down in your vice.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! I deff do when I'm making "real" cuts like for a project it's as low as I can have it and still make the cut I need. I'm glad you pointed that out tho! I don't want people to repeat that in their work!!

Woodworking is a small niche, and hand tool woodworking is even smaller. While you be a "smaller" content creator, you're in a small sphere. I have no business or qualifications as a business owner, but If I were in Bad Axe's shoes, a video like this would worry me. This is a small community and in small communities people tend to know each other, and information tends to spread fast.......

@SaintFredrocks

6 ай бұрын

I'm looking elsewhere.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

It does, your right. And that's why I have had so much anxiety around making and posting this. Still do

@SaintFredrocks

6 ай бұрын

You are doing what all of the other influencers SHOULD be doing: giving us an honest review of the products you are testing. With most things being sold online now, there aren't too many other ways to determine what is worth a look. Don't feel bad or anxious about your video, as you have helped us to avoid making a potentially costly mistake. If Bad Axe had treated you properly, owned up to and corrected THEIR mistake, then I am sure you would have told us about their great customer service. This debacle is 100% on Bad Axe. Thanks for another GREAT review, feel really good about yourself as you are helping us, and go buy another expensive tool and tell us about it. @@BatCaveCreations

I have a Florip saw which is a folded back and a Veritas. Both cut straight and accurately.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!!!

Good on you man. They are wrong, in what they told you, as you stated, the saw makers said that as well. But, where they are ridiculously wrong is in now they handled it. As someone stated in the comments, hand tool woodworking is a small group and word Silk travel get fast. Mistakes happen in production and QA, but if if does, own it and fix it, it is really that simple, just ask Lee Valley and their top notch customer service team.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! I agree, deff would have saved alot of stress hahah

I just subbed to your channel because you have great content. Really too bad about Bad Axe. When I was shopping for a tenon saw, it was either Bad Axe, Pax, or Veritas. I settled on the Veritas because I liked the handle more than either the Pax or the Bad Axe. Prior to this I watched Wood By Wright's visit to Bad Axe. Hopefully your experience was the exception, but those were some tall tales that Bad Axe was trying to sell you on.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!! Unfortunately, I'm not alone I have had many people reaching out to me stating they had similar experiences with customer service and quality control :( I am still really bummed about it because a Bad Axe saw was on my bucket list to try and hopefully one day own

@jajmcg

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations LV's response to any complaint I've had: "I'm sorry to hear that your experience hasn't been up to our usual standards. Can we send you another one?" That is the reason my shop is filled with Veritas.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@jajmcg YES!!! Almost every tool I own is Veritas or Lee Valley and that is one of the reason. Plus they let me storm the factory and make a video. They have my heart hahahaha

I tried one of there saws at the big tool show in Iowa last summer and the 3 guys in front of me as well and I found had a similar issue with our test cuts. They all hung to the left and the response was technique… but all of my other saws cut straight and the 3 gentlemen in front of me said the same thing… evidence suggests that their product is at least in part hype. Really glad you did this video because honesty should come before profit. Thank you

@michaelmataczynski4346

6 ай бұрын

“Their” saws not “there”

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Dang that is a shame. It is sad to hear that it's not just my experience. I'm hearing more and more examples. I'll admit I fell into the hype, I always wanted one and always wanted to try one. They were like the "goal" to own you know? I also agree with you, honestly needs to be no 1. It's our job if we are going to be content creators. Thank you too btw!

@CharlieEarnest

6 ай бұрын

I was watching at HandWorks and the spines on the saws used for test cuts had to be adjusted way more frequently than should be necessary. It’s because the fold on the spines isn’t producing enough clamping pressure to do its job correctly on saws with a thin plate.

It is just their saw. Thank you for the video, You may have felt out of sorts and weird while making this, but you came across very clear and articulate in what you were experiencing. I can totally understand the frustration with that saw, but it is not because it is folded. It is because of their manufacturing process. I bought the modest 10 inch Spear and Jackson tenon saw as well as the 12 inch, with a folded back. and CROWN 187L 10-Inch 254-mm Gents with folded back, and have not experienced anything that you did with the Bad Axe saw. Their customer service did not exist, and I would never purchase a saw from them. I paid $30-$45 each for my saws and am incredibly happy with saws that are straight, well balanced and easy to to sharpen. Sure my handles could use a little work as Paul Sellers suggests, to make them more comfortable. but the point is that nothing that they said was true, and they didn't even try to stand behind their product putting the blame entirely on you when they know it wasn't. Shame on them. But give the modest saws a try as well. More realistic in the grand scheme to pay $35-$45 for a good saw than $400+ dollars to be told it's your fault. uggh. Be well and I have now subscribed!

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!! This was a tough one to make. And you are right! The video comparing 9 saws there was a Pax saw that basically wouldn't cut. I'm gonna do a video on how to sharpen it up and make it a good user. Or try too I'm not a sharpening pro haha

@SaintFredrocks

6 ай бұрын

Most companies that sell premium products don't treat their customers like this, or they won't stay in business long. $400+ is definitely on the high side for a saw, but you will find there is a marked difference going from the 35-40 dollar saws to something like the Veritas. Unless of course if you know what you are doing and can set the blade up the way you like with the perfect handle to create YOUR one-of-a-kind saw. But I don't know how to do that yet, so I have to pay someone to do it for me. Another aspect to the "expensive" tools thing is the joy you get from using premium tools. Yes you can get the job done with less expensive, but if nice tools make you happy, then buy the thing and enjoy them I say. Life is far too short.

@RDurantWorkshop

6 ай бұрын

​​@@BatCaveCreationssharpening is super easy, just tedious, and the sound is horrific. Lol Paul Sellers has several great videos on that and his you set them up. The only real difference that I have found between these so called premium saws is the insane amount of money they want for the same exact steel, and mostly the nicely carved handle and that they usually come sharpened. If you learn to set up your own saw, which is actually quite easy, after I had anxiety over it for about a week or so (I'm not kidding about that). Having done wood working for a while now, I have learned there is definitely a difference between premium layout tools like starrett and the store brands like irwin etc, but when it comes to saws, you just don't buy what's in the stores. Look for old brands that don't distribute in us/Canadian stores and that old timers like Sellers and other established wood workers that apprenticed back in the day used. Even they will tell you some of the old brands are crap now, but other old brands are assumed crap by new people because they still come unsharpened like they did back in the day. That was when everyone set up their own saws the way they wanted them and sharpened their own a particular way. So the companies never sharpened or set them up as the user would change it or complain. But now new users just assume they are crap because they don't cut well out of the box. It try think they themselves are doing something wrong because it won't cut cleanly. In reality the steel is the same or better than these premium saws, they just need set up, and sharpening. Both super easy. But I really did freak out in anxiety leading up to actually doing it. After I got over the idea of accidentally ruining the blade with the hammers that I was using to remove the set, and remembering it was only $35 if I did, I set up all 7 of my tenon and gent saws in one day. I love my saws now. They are not substandard, they are heirloom tools, and I use them for everything. I don't sharpen as often as Paul Sellers, and yet they stay sharp for an incredibly long time. And cut well and straight.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@RDurantWorkshop I have sharpened a few saws before but the Pax has teeth smaller than what I've sharpened before so I'm glad it's on a cheeper saw I can use it as practice too lol Your right too, after doing the big review video alot of people told me that the Pax saw is sold unsharpened, for cheeper saws I deff get that but they need to add a warning label haahah

@ericwhetstone5383

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreationsmaybe that’s something we can tackle this coming weekend!

Companies, whether equipment/tools, supplies, or services need to drill this into their staff that the after purchase experience is the key to their longevity. People will pay a premium for a quality product, but more so the follow-up customer / technical support. And they’ll keep coming back. This reminds me of a few other companies which struggled with this in the last decade (Grizzly, Laguna), but figured it out and turned things around. I’ve been accumulating dovetail saws, including BA, Cosman, LN, Veritas, and a few Japanese saws, so your videos are incredibly timely. Keep up the great content Jamie…especially the tool reviews…very important.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I fully agree with you! Part of it too, like for me, if I were to buy my own bad axe I'd have to save up for it. It would be a big purchase for me so if this was my saw I'd be even more upset that I put work into buying the saw (by saving $ up) and then had to deal with service like this. It would hit even harder. I have a few more saw videos comming out! One I'm really excited about it's a kerf test. Make a cut, glue it together, see what it looks like! And thank you!!!

great video again. Been a subscriber for a while and first comment. As a hobby woodworker customer service is important to maintain and increase our enjoyment of the craft. The issue is not the shipping fees. While stupid it is what it is. The issue is their arrogance and obvious contempt for the customer. All these saws are luxury purchases. We don’t need to spend that much money to get the job done but we do for the luxury experience and customer service is critical part of the luxury experience. When i get regular service for my wife’s Lexus they have fancy coffee and fresh pastries while when I get regular service for my ford there is crappy coffee and sometimes Costco breakfast bars. They are both cars that get me from point A to point B but I the Lexus is definitely a more “enjoyable” experience. I was about to buy Frame Saw and Kerfing Plane from them and now will not. I am a PhD engineer and don’t need to be told I am incompetent which is basically what they did to you. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you and I fully agree. They kept saying "not to insult anyone's intelligence but..." draw a line to follow. Not to insult your intelligence but make sure your elbow is in line.... 100% I was insulted. And also 100% not how I expected this to go down. I thought it would crap out bad send it back let's get it fixed uo for your video (even if my channel is small haha) thank you again!

@davidsinger4018

6 ай бұрын

The size of your channel does not justify their behavior. For every product that we really really love we tell an average of 3 people. For every product we slightly dislike we tell 15. Just looking at the comments they have lost 5-10K of business easy. All this just to be right and not willing to give you another saw. They could have video called you to teach you their “correct” use. You have 4k subscribers. If only 1% decide not to purchase something from them at an average of $300 purchase that is a $12,000 loss sales. Easy math.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@davidsinger4018 that is very true and that makes me feel bad. That's one of the reason I didn't want to post. Ultimately as you can see I feel I needed to. They did offer to video call me to teach me how to use a saw but that was also insulting seeing as I have no issues with other saws haha

@davidsinger4018

6 ай бұрын

Don’t feel bad at all! You handled this with integrity and honesty. This is exactly why I watch your channel and use it before I make a purchase. I recently had my 50th and really wanted a “plow” plane. Combination possibly. Money was not an issue because I was turning 50! I went with veritas small plow based on all your videos and could not be happier.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@davidsinger4018 thank you so much!!!! That means alot to hear!!!

Good, fair info. Thanks for sharing this!

You could hear it binding on the way out!

Oh man this is disappointing. I have been toying with the idea of purchasing a Bad Axe, but the price was a major barrier. That combined with the issues you have been receiving has now put them in the back of the queue for me. Thank you for sharing, it is a shame to have to do it, but stuff like this needs to be called out.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I was disappointed too, I always looked up to bad axe and wanted to try one. I didn't get a chance at handworks so when I did the live unboxing of all these saws I was jazzed to see he sent a bad axe. As you can see that dwindled rather quickly haha I am feeling better about posting this because I am learning they are giving others the same "advice" and asking them to fix it themselves... :(

just a rando that found this vid (now subscriber) but i can 100% tell you the saw in the video is NOT straight. you can see the bend in it as your sawing towards the camera @ around the 6:53 ish mark. look at the reflection on the blade close to the teeth. you can see the warp.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! I tried to capture the bow/cup in pictures and it wouldn't show that's the tough part about this but I see it in video now that you mention it!

I am not normally a hand tool type person, but you never know. One day I might decide to make a dovetail box by hand, but thanks to your video I know it will not be with a bad axe product.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Why not hand tools!? I need to know haha

Thank you for the video, be interesting to see how Bad Axe responds. The Blue Spruce and Cosman sliced some sweet lines! I’ve loved doing business with Cosman. First class service and top quality tools. I’ll be checking/testing my Bad Axe tenon saw after watching this video

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I'm nervous to see how they respond. 99% chance they will just dig their heels in and keep saying it was me.

Thank you for this thorough review and the updates! I've been in the market for one or two staple saws for the shop, and I would rather pay more for a better customer experience and clearly 8 saws that are superior to this one. I currently use a super vintage folded back saw that I put in an e-tank to clean up. It's sharp enough to get the job done, but it's big and cumbersome for smaller tasks. That being said, it cuts straighter than the bad axe saw did, and I've never had to mess with the tensioning of it. You rock, and I cannot stand when companies won't own up to their mistakes. They could've had a good experience and created a life-long client, but they chose to be too prideful.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I am with you on custom maker made. If you're spending that much you may as well go with a small shop maker. Thank you for the note on the folded back too!! Dennis was over last weekend and we tensioned the CRAP outta the saw, so much so that it is now a canted/tapered saw lol it works better now. also 100%, if it was an oops sorry, completely different story. Thank you!!

Thank you Jamie for this honest review. Badaxe needs to get their act together. As for the company, they don't call them "BAD" -Axe for nothing.

Thanks for posting this. I believe shoddy quality and business practices need to be called out. Especially when a company is trying to charge a premium for its goods. Bad Axe won’t be getting any of my money.

@BatCaveCreations

4 ай бұрын

I agree, even tho it was tough it needed to be said

This was a bummer, but also appreciated as so many are afraid to do anything but praise. I've actually been considering a Bad Axe saw and this changed my mind completely. I get every now and again things get through quality control. But to get that in addition to poor customer service is a no go for me. Cheers my friend.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you and don't get me wrong posting this is still terrifying haha But you are right, mistake ok no problem they are hand made, it happens I'm good with that but I'm not good with how this situation went down lol

@SawForgeGarage

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations Keep up the good work my friend.

Bad bad Axe. thanks for the test.

Thank you for your efforts. I know this was an exhaustive exercise and very frustrating. Your findings are clear to me, but what bothered me most was the brutal customer service Bad Axe provided. Blame the customer, Really??? I have been looking at a few saws to purchase in the near future, Bad Axe was just eliminated from consideration. Too many great saw makers out there to waste your time with a company like Bad Axe, customer service matters. Thanks Again for your great video

@BatCaveCreations

5 ай бұрын

Thank you! And I agree mistakes happen but how you handle them says alot :(

If you’re gonna spend that kind of money on a saw, might as well get a Cosman, far far superior. Good to know thanks for sharing your honest experience!

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

almost 1/2 the price too! Did you hear he is coming out with wooden handles now?!

Thank you for the review. And all the videos you make. I am not a saw guy either. Actually, I'm only using Dovetail saws at the moment. But learning, and probably expanding on that in the future. With all the makers out there. Having honest comparisons like you have done here really helps me out. And I have plenty of options. I guess Bad Axe won't be one of them 🤔

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!!! Don't you have like 4 dovetail saws now?! Hahah

@johnframe6393

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations 1 Charlie Earnest's, and 2 Erik Florip, I sold the Battle Born last week because I just didn't feel I needed 4. And thendaybafter I shipped it. I feel terrible about it. 🤔

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@johnframe6393 I get you I'm the same way about maker made stuff. I have a chisel roll I dont use cus I have the cleat wall now but I can't bring myself to sell it cus it was made for me haha

Thanks for saving me from more lousy customer service. I was going to get one on Monday, but I will be getting the Blue Spruce instead. Claiming there was nothing wrong with the saw and then charging return shipping is ridiculous. Just what kind of technique is going to make that "nice" curve at the bottom of the cut? I had an Ernie Ball Music Man JP6 guitar that had a grounding problem. I called the manufacturer, and they said send it in. They charged me $150 to tell me there was nothing wrong and I had to pay shipping both ways from Florida to California and back. The tech scratched the front of my guitar and put some dents in it by leaving the whammy bar loose in the case. That was my only Music Man guitar.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Exactly!!!! Diagonal cuts it get that's tenique but a curve? Lol I'm sorry to hear about the guitar thats horrible!

Thank you, Jamie. It really hurts to hear about your experience. I have a Stiletto too, and I'm very happy with it, but I get very angry to learn about how they treat you. Shame on them. Keep ut the good work, and best wishes from Norway. Perhaps one day in the future we will see a video with you interviewing a saw maker?

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!! I am glad your saw works tho! That is good!!! I have 2 planned with 2 different saw makers, there just isn't enough time in the day but this year for sure!!

@finniunker860

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations Great! I'm looking forward to it!

They're trying to gaslight you. I had a tech try to tell me that they built the entire town of Lancaster, CA out of level so that the water would run off and that is why his remote head looked out of level. Lol.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Hahaha I was born and raised in Palmdale, CA! And I can say for a fact the water didn't run ANYWHERE when it rained lol it just pooled on the roads and everyone stayed indoors 😅 🤣

Integrity takes a heavy toll. Thanks for delivering the bad story. The bad story isn’t of a defective product, but bad customer service combined with ignorance. Sorry you had to go through all this trouble in the interest of truth.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!!!!

Bad Axe is a good name for this company. They could also call themselves Gas Light or Bull Shit.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Am I allowed to heart this comment? Haha

Wow. I definitely wouldn't purchase a saw from Bad Axe if this is the way they act when there's an issue. It's pretty telling when every other saw you're using cuts straight as an arrow and that one hooks to the right.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That's why I was so shocked they reacted this way. They knew I was testing all these and it was only theirs. And they watched the big comparison video too so.... like why? Hahah

Dang, Jamie, this sucks. I have the Bad Axe Stiletto saw and really like it. I got it last fall, but now that I think about it, I haven't cut full depth with it. Just dovetails. I'm unlikely to purchase from them in the future based on you having troubles twice. The info they gave you on saws sounds crazy and like really reaching for excuses. The saws are just too expensive to mess with that. I also had no idea about tensioning being something I would need to address (unless I dropped it or something) and I don't want to mess with that either. :( Of the hundreds of individual products I've purchased for woodworking, I've had a similar problem with a PEC combination square brought from Taytools - when the ruler is taken out it was nearly impossible to get back in. Several people tried it. All had the same results. This wasn't just a learning curve on a what should be a very simple process, it would take minutes each time to put it back in. I have another brand of combo square, no similar issues. When sent back to Taytools (and they were exceptionally nice to deal with and seem like great folks), they insisted it was fine, etc. It was disappointing. Also, I have two Katz Moses products, one is great, one isn't and JKM would not stand behind the product. It was a bummer. Luckily, those experiences were the exception and not the rule. There are great companies out there with excellent service. Veritas comes to mind.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I agree with all of this lol I've only had issues with 2 companies (this video being 1 lol) I haven't bought from JKM but I've heard that about him too unfortunately. Veritas customer service is awesome and I've been becoming more and more obsessed with Blue Spruce too haha I'm trying to think of other companies I've worked with oh armor tool. Not a fan and won't buy from again had a clamp break and they tried to accuse me of trying to get 2 free clamps for 1 broken even tho i said many time i just wanted one haha. It was comical but that was prob back in 2019

@blayne2029

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations I was torn between Blue Spruce and LN mortise chisels and I'm curious to hear more about how they compare. Blue Spruce does seem cool.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@blayne2029 I JUST bought the veritas as the last seconds sale. I don't even want to compare cus I don't want to have to sell and buy again if I like a diff brand better hahahha

And jist like that i wont be forking out on bad axe. I was going to buy rip and cross cut saws. Thinking ill be having precise cuts. But due to price £450+ per saw so nearly 1k purchase I was on the edge. Now with custommer service like that i wont even go there. Thanks for the video.

@williamn01

Ай бұрын

Save up the money and just get one of Shane Skeltons saws if in the UK , I guess you are as you used the £sign .

I could hear the apprehension in your voice the moment you started your welcome 😂😂😂😂

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Haha 100% anxiety was through the roof lol

@darodes

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations couldn’t have been an easy video to make. I’ve heard nothing but good things about bad axe but this is absolutely a consideration!

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@darodes deff wasn't easy lol I use to hear good things but I'd say within the last year that is starting to shift. People are saying it's since Mark sold the company and since this video posted I've gotten multiple messages that people had a similar experience as mine :(

@darodes

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations that makes a LOT of sense if there was a change in ownership. That’s disappointing

Thanks for the video - you did a great job of not saying "fuck you" when you read their shitty emailed response blaming your technique, even though that's clearly what you (understandably) were thinking

@BatCaveCreations

Ай бұрын

thank you! I patted myself on the back for that hahahahahah

I once ordered a rip filed large tenon saw from Bad-Axe. It was back when Mark was in charge. They sent (to me in Australia) a hybrid - i called them up, and they basically came up with every excuse from “nobody orders rip, our hybrids are better” to “its a custom configured saw, and it would be too expensive to remake it and organise return shipping”. At the time I had saved up for a couple of years for it. I decided I wouldnt be ordering anything else based on that. Note: the saw has performed wonderfully as an all around rip and x-cut, as I know Mark had high standards, it just simply wasn’t what i ordered, so I simply will get my next saw from someone else who will give me what i order.

@BatCaveCreations

18 күн бұрын

Dang :( I am sorry to hear that but I am happy it performs well!!

I don't think it's a folded back thing. I've got a number of backed saws and have had for 40 years. I would say it's in the set and the sharpening. When I sharpen a saw myself I check how it cuts and hone where necessary.

They told you the tool was going to be a game changer and when it was you took issue. Why you can't adjust your technique to better suit the tool is beyond me. I mean embrace the curve already! All those other saws just cut boring straight lines. But the Bad Axe adds a new creative dimension to your work. That's the beauty of handmade man.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Hahaha this is halarious!!! Thank you! I needed that!

Thanks for the video, Jamie. Bummer about the customer service.

I have a couple of folded-back saws I restored - they all cut really well. Think you got a lemon. if it goes to the right the set is out.

@BatCaveCreations

Ай бұрын

Thank you!

Hey man. Love that you started plane wellness to help people. Let me know what type of tools you need for the participants in your charity. I have some that I'm not using I got to restore. That would be a good video for you to do. Plane restoral

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Hey! Thank you so much! Right now it is mostly carving chisels. But keep an eye here cus eventually we will need other tools! planewellness.org/tool-need/ Thank you again! I have it on the list to do a restoration video with electrolysis but haven't had the time yet :( lol

I have a friend that basically had the same issue and experience with them as you did. She threw the saw in the trash and bought a Lie Nielson and has never looked back. I just sent her the link to this video. We've been a small family business since 1946 and one of the main reasons we've survived this many years is...customer service. Thanks for sharing your video with us, and I'll stick to my Lie Nielson's. I have all of their saws and most of their hand planes and never had an issue. if I ever do, I'm sure LN would handle it with professionalism and help me.

@BatCaveCreations

3 ай бұрын

Dang I am sorry to hear that! I am still getting stories that this occurs way more than it should and you are 100% correct, customer service is HUGE. Mistakes happen but how you handle it is way more important! The LN saws are impressive esp for their price range!

Good video. Could tell you were struggling with calling out a company vs feeling responsible to your audience. Apart from your issue with the tool maker, this video also imparted some great saw general knowledge. Lastly...the idea that a backsaw should have some bending in the blade during use defies the whole idea of a backsaw vs a panel saw. Made me laugh out loud when you said they told you that.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!! Ya the struggle was real, still is tbh. That made me laugh too, I wish I could have shared the responses from the saw makers. exact quotes, would have been halarious! lol

It would be interesting to send it to one of the saw makers you contacted and see if they can retune it.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That is a great idea! I'll have to ask my friend he let me borrow it so I gotta leave that call up to him

@ericwhetstone5383

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreationsyou know at least 3 people who could easily do that, but it’s sad that’s what it has come to. They really needed to do better.

I have folded back saws and I don't have that problem. Bad Axe was bought out by he employees a while ago. It'd be a pity to see it not go well.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! How offten do you have to retension it? I'm hearing this is just a Bad Axe issue with the back being too lose

@1deerndingo

6 ай бұрын

I've never had to retension a saw. Folded back - Slotted back - doesn't matter. I think Bad Axe's problem is two fold (no pun intended) and I think you are uniquely positioned to help them out of it. They just bought the business and they are a bunch of people who worked there. They might have carried out functions to make saws, but they aren't knowledgeable saw makers. I think they have been given the wrong plate steel and they haven't got the knowledge to recognise it. They keep thinking that because they haven't changed their manufacturing process that the saw must be perfect and that's why they keep saying it's You. @@BatCaveCreations Maybe you could get one of the real saw makers to have a talk to them. It's be a pitty to see Bad Axe go under because of this.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That's also why this was so difficult for me. I love small employee run companies and we need more of those. From what I have been hearing is I'm not the only one that has had issues like this. I hope they turn it around, I really do. I also feel like they won't listen even if a saw maker talks to them, at least per my interaction with them but again I hope that isn't the case

I have two Badaxe saws. They cut like a dream. They cut more grabby than what I was used to but once I used them a few times I figured out I was putting too much pressure into the cut. Both my saws cut straight. I have other saws that cut crooked like what you showed and I stoned the side and that helped alot. I have a little gent's that has a bent plate and it still cuts a straight line. I bought an antique backsaw that the plate was bowed and with a few taps of the back plate that bow came right out. It was kinda amazing really seeing how easily that bow went away. I didn't even know about stoning the side of the teeth to fix a saw cutting off in one direction till I saw a tutorial on Bad Axes' site. So the advice they offered totally worked for me.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! How old are your bad axe saws? I'm hearing that the saws prior to Mark selling the company were way better than they are now :/

Interesting stuff.

My $0.02. Sounds like the saw was out of proper tension when you sent it back. I have had wonky cutting saws where the plate looked all weird. A couple of taps to reset the tension and things straightened right out. 🤔

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

It could have been the tension too but we deff noticed the plate issues (maybe tension related? idk lol) and the set was deff off.

I have a roberts and lee folded back that i bought as an apprentice 50 years ago and no problem. I also have a vintage diston folded back my wife bought me over 30 years ago again no problem. I have lie nielson and no problem. I dont think its the back necessarily, either should be fine if theyve been fitted correctly

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! That is what I am hearing, that it is like they arent adding enough clamping pressure. They shouldn't need re-tensioned as often as the Bad Axe ones do :(

If you have to tension the folded back once or twice over several years, all good. You should not have to do it more than once or after a drop or bind. Rare event and should stay in tension. I have drank some of that folden back cool-aid but am not on one side or another. Neutral.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That's what I'm hearing, it should not have to be tensioned that often and that it's a bad axe issue.

Wow, that absolutely stinks! I have three of their saws - they cut straight, work great, love them. Very confused that they would have told you the saw was fine after you shipped it back - my assumption was that something was off with the packaging and it got mishandled in transit somewhere.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I asked that too! I was like are we sure it's the same saw lol I'm glad you have 3 thay work well! How old are they? Are they from before the company sold to the new owners? That's what I'm hearing is that the old Bad Axe saws were good

@evanvandyke9819

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations I have one that's about a year old, and two are new. However - I got the 2 new ones when I went to one of Mark's (Founder of Bad Axe) Sharpening Seminars, where I built my 2 new saws under his eyes, and he verified everything. I will note, that as part of the seminar, he took us to the Bad Axe factory floor, where he personally went through about 2 dozen new saws tuning them up. So he's still involved with things, just stepping back from ownership. One thing I'm surprised they didn't mention was retentioning the saw - put it flat on the workbench, pinch the toe of the saw where the back meets the plate, and tap the back hard enough to just move it a bit. If the plate got pinched/etc in the back (which can happen if the saw binds in the cut, gets dropped, etc.) this will straighten it out fast. One of the reasons I love folded back saws is that tehy are easy to repair & tune up.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@evanvandyke9819 dang I wish I this one was one he tuned up. I was super excited to try the bad axe always wanted too. Tensioning is easy but it seems like with this one and the ones at handworks they needed retensioned WAY to often that would be my issue with it. :(

@evanvandyke9819

6 ай бұрын

If it falls out of tension that fast there definitely something wrong. Should only happen if you do something to it. Sorry for your bad experience- i remain confused that they would tell you all is well given your findings. Don’t know what to say!

Hey Jamie I need to regrind the bevel on my custom number 4 chipbreaker. All my after market hocks come at 35…. You think that’s right good bc the hock feels like a way better fit..Also would a micro bevel work or re grind the whole thing?

@BatCaveCreations

2 ай бұрын

This will help!! kzread.info/dash/bejne/fZeJxNmlhdKeeqQ.html

0 issues with my older Florip folding back I’ve had for years

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you!!

Man you could hear it binding in the cut. Such a shame. I personally use have and like the Veritas saws mostly because I can get the somewhat locally and they aren't over the top exspnsive.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

The veritas saws are impressive! In the 9 saw review I would say the fine tooth veritas was 3rd. And really it should have been lower being fine tooth but it's fast, smooth, and easy to start!

@90FormulaE8

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations I feel like many hand tool purist shun them a bit because of their composite construction. I dig mine alot, but then again I am no one and my opinion is irrelevant and generally unimportant most time.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

@@90FormulaE8 matters to me! And I agree with you people don't like how they look but I do. Remind me of batman lol and they are super comfortable!

I have had a similar issue with a Lie-Nielsen. Modern backsaws seem to have a blade that is very thin and the backs are glued not clamped . so they are hard to correct. Anyway, not a big fan of backsaaws anyway, certainly not a these prices. A japanese saw will do better.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I have been testing out some japaneese saws and they are impressive! Better than I thought they would be, even some of the cheeper ones!

Well this is disappointing. I’m sorry you had to do this, I know you’re a good guy and this wasn’t fun.

@austininatx

6 ай бұрын

Also, for what it’s worth, I have two bad axe saws and they’re great. Don’t know that I’ll get more though

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you I appreciate that! Not fun at all and not what I expected. Honestly, really didn't even want to make the video but I knew I needed to

I'm a cheap used tool kind of guy. I bought a hundred plus year old saw for $2 that had a slightly twisted plate. Using the advice from bad axe, I was able to fix it. So I think the advice they share is good. However, needing to retension the spine makes me wonder if they aren't folding the back enough or that they have some other manufacturing issue... A comment on technique: once the kerf is started why don't you drop the heel off the saw? Seems to me like you are sawing "uphill" or against the grain. You do it with all the saws, so it isn't what's causing the axeperience issues, but you might actually saw even quicker to your line.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! I was trying to keep the cuts consistent by staying flat and not rocking the saw either way

I wonder what the cut will be for a left handed person? Would cut to the left? Maybe a left handed person could tell us

@DennisWayneWoodshop

6 ай бұрын

It’ll cut to whichever direction the plate is bent. Kind of like a spoon going into ice cream (best analogy I could come up with)

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Lol I actually did try switching hands and sawing with my left hand. (When my wrist acts up I saw left handed lol) it had the same issue and curved the same way :(

If the only part of this whole thing was them saying “it doesn’t matter if the blade is straight.” That would be enough! Such an on its face ludicrous claim made by supposedly high end saw makers?! Just embarrassing.

@BatCaveCreations

3 ай бұрын

100% agree and what makes it worse, I'm not the only one they have said this too :(

I use both modern slotted-back saws and vintage folded-back saws. Vintage folded-back saws do not require tinkering. I've only ever re-tensioned mine when I do a full sharpening. Beyond that, I don't think I'd go with that company just because of the gaslighting the customer service put you through. These tools are too expensive to have anything like the interaction you describe.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! It is sounding like the general consensus is that Bad Axe doesn't clamp the back enough to give the support/tension a saw needs :(

If the handle comes loose all the time maybe locktite would keep it tight

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I thing they just didn't tighten it all the way during assembly :/

@ToddChilton

6 ай бұрын

​@@BatCaveCreations Handles coming loose can be due to humidity changes in shipping. While not ideal, that's the least of the issues you described, and at least has an explanation out of their (or your) control.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

That's a good point! Thank you!

I honeslty didnt know saw plates were epoxied into the backs now. I thought they were left free so they had less chance of kinking the plate (?). Regardless, customer experience is a big deal and IMHO this community is small enough that word travels to fast to deal with customers in this manner. I hope they resolve this because i have to admit, I've been thinking about their frame saws...

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I think the difference (and again not a saw person lol) folded backs needed to be free because they can't get the same kind of tension that a sloted back could. So folded needed to be able to be fixed? Hopefully a saw guy jumps in this comment haha 😄

As consumers, we vote with our dollars. Seeing you use the three other quality saws, let us see that it's not your technique that is at fault. I will not purchase anything from Bad Axe. Their response shows that they neither care for the customer nor the product they produce.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I never heard it out that way and I love it "we vote with out dollars"! I may have to quote that in a video haha

@leroy5007

6 ай бұрын

Lol, I did enjoy the video.

I bet they weren’t cutting to full depth like you were.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

I thought that too, I asked and they said they were.... lol

For the sake people in the future searching reviews on KZread of saws, I’d suggest you update the name of the video to something actually searchable. For example “Gotta stay true to my channel. Bad axe dovetail saw review” Most people won’t be able to read the whole title but when they search for bad axe saw reviews it’ll be much more easily found and have a significantly longer lifespan of the video getting views, and help people looking at bad axe saws steer clear. That’s awful customer service and they should be ashamed as a company.

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! KZread changed this a while back to also include the first part of the description so it will show up. I appreciate you checking!!!

Sorry for your experience. My takeaway is regardless of getting the situation fixed, the cosman saw had the cleanest cut.

Not sure how close Mark is to the business these days. Unfortunately CRM is not an acronym know by the entitled generation. I do hope they can figure out working on the business and or in the business.

That's pretty insulting to say your technique is at fault, I mean it's a saw, not rocket science. Gaslighting at its best !

It’s obvious that you got zero satisfaction giving a crappy review of your experience. Huge shame on bad axe, it sucks when a company you admired appears to have zero integrity. The return shipping thing blows my mind. I hope you update us if you hear back from bad axe!

@BatCaveCreations

6 ай бұрын

Thank you! I will but I am really hoping they don't even reach out. I don't wanna deal with them just digging their heals in and chances are they won't say sorry. You know? Lol

@jborsvold

6 ай бұрын

@@BatCaveCreations For sure.. At this point there would be more dignity in them brushing it off and moving on, so hopefully that’s how it goes haha

I'll throw my $.02 worth - when the tooth set isn't even, the plate tends to pull to the heavy set side, resulting in the curved cut. The saw set should be even on both sides, with minimal set for dovetail saws so the plate doesn't rattle in the kerf. I can't really talk to the folded-back, but it should hold the plate securely so it doesn't 'squirm' in the kerf. That all said, if your technique is to 'lean' into the cut with a stiff hand grip, that can also cause curved or inconsistent cuts. Rob Cosman has a number of videos on proper cutting technique. In my experience, cutting dovetails consistently is a perishable skill that needs to be refreshed often for consistent results.

The goofy company name alone turns me off . Something tells me if this tool manufacturing thing doesn’t work out we’ll see some lame beard care products or leather vape pen pouches out of the same people .

It is your technique. Try to rest as many teeth on the wood while you're cutting. I can see the saw tipped forward and it's puting to much stress on one tooth. Maybe that's why the folded back doesn't cutting straight. But it's still a default. It's must be the back not pinching the plate hard enough. And therefore not tensionning the plate enough. I'm french so i tried to explain it as best as i could. If it's not clear send a msg and i will rephrase.

@SaintFredrocks

6 ай бұрын

Please tell me how technique will cause a cut to curve in the lower part of the cut. If you can do that, you aren't a woodworker you are a magician: it is not physically possible with a straight and true blade: that is physics.