Claiming that capitalism creates ingenuity is like claiming that landlords provide housing.

@guybunchofnumbers123

20 күн бұрын

THIS

@Loneman_OG

20 күн бұрын

@@guybunchofnumbers123 ☝ *THIS!*

@naehalmulazim

20 күн бұрын

Yes, Aaron kept bringing up historical points on top of points.

Aaron Bastani on fire schooling Michael Walker 😅🔥🔥

@freedom4639

20 күн бұрын

Arrogance is Aaron's trate he would love to be a politician. Iranian in London why is he here .

@guybunchofnumbers123

20 күн бұрын

Aaron❤❤

@LookandReport

20 күн бұрын

@@freedom4639 wdufo

@sd-vx6bo

20 күн бұрын

@@freedom4639aaron is a bit arrogant but you can’t deny michael was also a bit arrogant too with his smug capitalist “oh it’s here now what changed” gotcha. its much more complicated than just capitalism

@duxnihilo

20 күн бұрын

@@freedom4639Who's Iranian?

"Graph go down, capitalism also happen, good capitalism make graph go down" - Michael, babes... you ok?

@riveranalyse

20 күн бұрын

Haha. Love this. Was a bit baffling watching him be so dense.

@SkywalkerFTP

14 күн бұрын

@@riveranalyse You watch Michael enough it becomes the norm really.

love that discussion on Capitalism at the end

Brilliant arguments from Aaron at the end

Michael Walker certainly got schooled tonight. But the simplest point against his weak argument is that correlation is not causation.

@habsom1406

20 күн бұрын

I agree with you @jimmyporter8941, that's a key response that many fall into with many other arguments. 👍

@ykm257

20 күн бұрын

Hypothetically even if there was causation, that doesn't mean we can ignore the very ugly other side of the capitalism coin.

@riveranalyse

20 күн бұрын

Came to say this after watching last night.

I’m so impressed by Aaron on this episode. Changed my understanding of him entirely.

@sheyhughes5222

20 күн бұрын

I had the same experience

Ths exchange makes me want them to do a series called 'Radicalizing Michael' or something 50:48

All the Novara contributors are ace: well informed, eloquent, principled. They are comfortable enough in their arguments to present the other side in a way right wing outlets don’t. It makes for intelligent, thought-provoking discussion. For me, Michael and Aaron are the premier partnership: forthright and challenging, with wry, self-deprecating humour.

I loved that discussion between Michael and Aaron towards the end of the show. I can’t imagine being able to listen to anything like this at any other programme.

You're telling me that I can go back to a NHS where I can actually get an appointment, properly staffed schools, clean water, bins collected and I get to say goodbye to the Tories.. and it'll only cost me £1000 a year? Take my money,,,

@SlowhandGreg

20 күн бұрын

The Tories p1ss away money like no tomorrow I'm surprised the media don't dig into it more often ex It's estimated that HMRC under collect by 42 billion in tax, just funding it properly might help collect billions extra.

@ReubsWalsh

20 күн бұрын

£1000 in 5 years is £200 a year🙂

@Loneman_OG

20 күн бұрын

@@ReubsWalsh An absolute _BARGAIN!_

@Redsleather

19 күн бұрын

Vote Labour ✅🌹

@Loneman_OG

19 күн бұрын

@@Redsleather I'd rather vote for an actual democratic socialist party than one that's already in the pockets of big business and the Israeli government.

Aron please may I bring you along to every argument/debate I have with a capitalist apologist

Our Green Party in NZ have had co-leaders for decades, works very well. They also operate a heavily consensus based approach to developing policy. It all works very well because we have a proportional system of government here. They've had quite a few ministerial posts in several government, and they're frequently heard in the mainstream press. Not that it stopped our current clusterfuk of a government, but it was close.

@josephde-haan1074

20 күн бұрын

That ACT party is nuts though aye?

THEIR SILENCE WAS SO LOUD

@snipelite94

20 күн бұрын

The students also have to be wary of new tory laws on "hate speech" and don't want to give free speech hypocrites justification to bring in police thugs

@Loneman_OG

20 күн бұрын

@@snipelite94 Or get expelled or even have their visa revoked. Free speech? My arse!

All that debate about capitalism but no mention of the multiple forms of exploiitation that drives it and have always driven it..... slavery, imperialism, colonialism, racism, sexism etc

@freedom4639

20 күн бұрын

Well said 👍

@naehalmulazim

20 күн бұрын

I mean Aaron did say "value in motion, money to make more money", and they are only covering the point about whether capitalism brought improvements or was capitalism just one of many factors that brought improvements?

@stevenredpath9332

20 күн бұрын

And let us not forget that Liberals were the party of capitalism before the tories usurped it.

What a brave young woman, good on her.

I’m glad Aaron was there to correct Michael’s bizarre claims about capitalism and child mortality. Human ingenuity creates solutions… capitalism places constraints upon them. Child deaths before industrialisation were not needless because there was no other way to live. They only become needless once medical advances mean they could be avoided.

@freedom4639

20 күн бұрын

So capitalism doesn't cause greed and narcissistic behaviour.🤔

Looking at Britain from abroad... how can the Tories have had 14 years of austerity and crumbling public services and still be running massive deficits? To put it bluntly... where the f#%k has all the money gone??

@BENTWOONEZERO

20 күн бұрын

Debt payments and covid.

I had no idea Michael identified himself as a social democrat, but my own perspective as a libertarian socialist is that, just like feudalism, capitalism fits its historical period, but is outdated and is being dragged out through an era where it is becoming evident that a more modern political system is needed

@ince55ant

20 күн бұрын

i've always understood his perspective to be an ardent pragmatist. i dont think we'll see anything beyond basic social demotratic policy in our lifetime, but obviously also important to have an idea of a future beyond that so we dont end up in this capitalist quagmire when it comes to pragmatists though i always wonder what they would believe if there was some as yet unimaginable major disruption to status quo

@olb3587

20 күн бұрын

@@ince55ant maybe it's just my pessimism showing, but I think a major disruption to the status quo is completely imaginable within the next 20 years, whether it's provoked by climate catastrophe, subsequent mass migration, or by the ever more frequent economic crashes in the UK and globally

Suella, with the classic " I see you aren't too much of a socialist to wear shoes," attack line I heard Jeremy Hardy mock 30 years ago.

Good session this evening. Nice healthy discussion between Michael and Aaron - if this was Piers Morgan, there’d be so many interruptions and talking over each other. Well done gents 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

This is why i love Novara Media...a sensible debate from 2 different ideologies but with a smile and an understanding. Gotta love a mass debate!! 😁❤

How do we know that standards of living for humans would not have been better, and almost certainly more egalitarian, if we had had a different economic system, such as socialism or environmentalism, for the last 500 years?

@BENTWOONEZERO

20 күн бұрын

Socialism as failed Every time, every were.

@alkhemiegypt

20 күн бұрын

@@BENTWOONEZEROSocialist projects have been attacked and wiped out by the US pretty much every time they are attempted. Read The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins.

@seanhubbard6033

20 күн бұрын

Wrong. ​@@BENTWOONEZERO

@BENTWOONEZERO

20 күн бұрын

@@seanhubbard6033 Ok were as it worked ?

@DarrenBurgess1989

19 күн бұрын

@@BENTWOONEZERO every single place it was tried. Literacy rates, living standards and life expectancy all rised everywhere.

I like Denyer, she's genuine. I am 100% voting for her, she's righteous. I am so DONE with labour, I left after they got rid of Corbyn. But yea, I like the Green social and economic policy and Denyer is cool and inclusive.

Michael I love you mate but you’re such a lib

@SkywalkerFTP

14 күн бұрын

I don’t love him, he has zero redeeming qualities. Just a liberal PMC. He’s not to be taken seriously.

@jackgurney6961

14 күн бұрын

@@SkywalkerFTP Yeah but he’s so charming!

47:15 - Don't want to insult her intelligence but Suella Braverman doesn't seem to understand socialism.

@stevenredpath9332

20 күн бұрын

You are not. Her being in the Johnson government was the biggest insult of her intelligence. Just look at her co-minister Liz Truss.

Jonas Salk was asked if he would put a patent on the polio vaccine and he said 'patent? could you patent the sun?'. I worked in Labs for 10 years, trust me financial remuneration is not incentivising in basic biomedical research.

They’re probably still arguing on whatsapp 😂. Great discussion though.

@naehalmulazim

20 күн бұрын

Michael is repeating the same point for his argument, but he is sharp at picking out possible holes in Aaron's argument.

was fun listening to the discussion at the end ty ty

Michael Walker: Correlation with regards to Capitalism and time = causation. *disregards all the other major stuff that's happened that isn't capitalism in the last 250 years* I don't always agree with Aaron Bastani. Sometimes I disagree heavily with him. But goddamn he's saying everything I want to say and more.

@frankmerlino336

19 күн бұрын

Not to mention Michael completely ignores the absolute and non debatable importance of the labor movement in fighting abd winning concessions for workers. Does he suppose thr 40 hour work week, social security and public health care just came out of the blue or, worse yet originated from the essential goodness and decency of bourgeoisie? Maybe Michael should take another gander at his history texts and read accounts of life for the early proletariat living during the age of industrialization, tampabtalcoholism, child labor in toxic textile mills, 80+ hour work weeks as standard fare. These conditions are still rampant in the global south.

A few things regarding the claim that people are better of under capitalism because of things like child mortality. Aaron was correct when talking about vaccines but that is only one small part of it. Wild animal populations will have lower infant mortality because humans had such high population density. This was mainly due to most of the people living as serfs, workers and farmers kept in poor conditions by feudal lords, and kings. After the plague and the printing press there were fewer people to work and thus people had more bargaining power and people were disceminating information at an unprecedented rate. Many other things than vaccines also helped lower this dramatically after the industrial revolution such as pasturisation, railways, anasthetics, medical techniques, sanitisation, child labour laws, welfare and pensions. Almost all of which were anti capitalist or are versatile and useful to humanity without producing wealth while simultaniously lifting living standards for everyone. So yeah, Michael. Don't wanna sound too patronising here but you're correct. Capitalism is better than feudalism 😼

Love the debates between Michael and Aaron. I'm glad Novara isn't too ideological and that there's room for that type of discussion.

Very dumb perspective from Michael on capitalism's role in progress. Slightly worrying considering he is the largest talking head on this platform... Aaron hand holding him through the nonsense of his argument is very embarrassing.

@naehalmulazim

20 күн бұрын

I mean Aaron has been for socialism and communist views for a long time, I was surprised to see they differ on such a core part of sociology.

@SkywalkerFTP

14 күн бұрын

@@naehalmulazim It’s why I struggle to watch this. Michael is a liberal. The gulf between Michael and Barnaby for example is to much for this channel to feel like a cohesive left wing outlet. I think Barnaby would have smoked Michael worse then Aaron did there, Aaron was clearly being kind.

One thing for certain, you can be sure that the Tories will lie about everything.

Really great show tonight! A round table of you guys discussing capitalism would be amazing I think

@naehalmulazim

20 күн бұрын

Get Ash Sarkar in here. :D

I wash myself with a rag on a stick

Interesting debate on Capitalism. For me the issue we have today - in the west particularly - is unproductive forms of capitalism that are encouraged through a lack of industrial and economic policy - or what we would call neo liberalism and austerity economics. Both are unproductive and neither are about developing productivity or improving things as much as they are about giving us bullshit jobs and making a quick and easy buck for some.

@freedom4639

20 күн бұрын

Well said yes it works primarily for the rich . No one seems to ask why they need Billions.

I'm not voting Starmer (or Sunak obvs), but the Tories have comprehensively failed on creating & spreading prosperity so their vaunted economic credibility is shot. It just hasn't registered that no-one's listening anymore.

Fascinating conversation in the end! Thank you both!!

Michael I think all those GB News appearances have got under your skin

Another problem of the London to Birmingham route for HS2; it replaced a service that wasn’t particularly poor, so it was a just a colossal waste of money if that’s all that gets built

I love it when Michael and Aaron disagree!

That Green politician might be a good person (don't know anything about her) but as a communicator, Jesus wept. She tied herself in knots trying to answer these soft ball questions.

Like anyone would trust the competence of Tories!

Adam wiping the floor with Michael on capitalism and it's benefits. Hands down.

I usually go for 2mm, but now I know 1/2mm is the secret to getting the Michael Walker look!

Least unhinged social democrat devil's advocacy. I love Michael, this isn't about dunking on him.

The amount of money corporations extorted from people 50 bil is on the small side

Zaddy walker

Micheal is one of the best looking broadcasters 👌🏾🤩🤩

Green party co leaders talk on antisemitism doesn't sound right-wing media ready.

Great that the students blanked Sueella and GBNews

Im.a pensioner. Im.not any better off. The triple lock is a catch up exercise on a pension that is pretty low.. It had already been swallowed up by the rise in bills and food before it arrived this month.

Penicillin

Another great Friday show!

They should have arrested Braverman for loitering on the streets with intent to provoke, borderline 'hate march'? Bravo to the students for their restraint and for demonstrating their silent contempt for Cruella (aka the s/stirrer), The senior gentleman sat with his placard was very powerful, he was able to relay his succinct message without having to engage with her. I have to agree with Arran on the capitalism issue, but still love the way Michael steers the Novara ship, I like the fact that these discussions and differences can take place in a healthy way. Carla presented very well too, logical and straight talking, she's one to watch in the future.

Living standards rose despite capitalism, not because of it.

no Michael capitalism hasn't reduced child mortality and poverty. Technology, medicine and science did that. capitalism simply allowed a small number of people to gain the lions share of the benefits of those things.

Correlation is not caucasian

Increasing quality of life following industrialization is primarily in spite of capitalism Michael, people have had to fight for every damn concession we've been granted. Also Marx says capitalism is progressive in comparison to feudalism but is only a means to an end on the road to socialism.

@philipscott4456

19 күн бұрын

I think Marx is also attributed as saying and unjust means results in an unjust outcome...

Another brilliant Friday show starting become the highlight of my week 😂😂

that was an 11 out of 10 episode! I love when they get historical and macro economic

Man things have changed when I first started watching this channel a few years ago I agreed with Michael but not so much these days 🤧 especially on Gaza but I so disagree with capitalism I find myself more left wing than him on many a thing.

Where is the evidence that Labour will raise taxes?

Defo an episode of the office! Lmaoooooooooooooo

If the UK tax allowance had kept pace with inflation since 2021 it would be £14900.

Great discussion about capitalism.

Mr Liberal Micheal Walker, clearly spending far too much time on GBNews. Quite depressing to watch his comments tonight.

@ScandalUK

20 күн бұрын

Without those comments we would never have had such an interesting debate to watch

@Alex-pk1iy

20 күн бұрын

This isn’t an echo chamber, one of the reasons I love this channel

@JohnJohnson-mq5ve

20 күн бұрын

I don't agree with Michael Walker often either, but he's an essential counterpoint to the more radical thinkers on the channel. He forces them to make their analysis more accessible. Without him you wouldn't have that wonderful "rant" from Aaron tonight.

W/r the capitalism debate: Marx said that Capitalism was an improvement on feudalism, but it's still an awful system. Most of the problem is that Feudalism was an even worse system, which capitalists/social dems often don't realize that socialists acknowledge. I'm happy to say capitalism is better than what came before it, no problem. But that doesn't make it a good system, anymore than a constitutional monarchy (eg. Tyrant Louis XIV of France) being better than an absolute monarchy makes it constitutional monarchy the best system. Does that kind of make sense?

Michael coming across so naive that I’m in shock at what I’m seeing. I actually can’t believe he thinks his position is sensible

I wonder what haircut he'd have gotten if he'd have asked for a Murray Walker...

In my opinion Michael came off surprisingly arrogant and stand-offish in the interview with Carla. Sad as it's so rare that Greens are given any sort of platform, even on the left. I would love if Novara could bring in some regular hosts with more environmental credentials. I normally love the analysis here but found myself pausing for a rant regularly tonight. P.S. the activist from Revolutionary Communist Party was totally right.

@PeterBattpsychoeconomics

20 күн бұрын

Actually, I thought Michael was doing the job of a journalist and asking the sort of pertinent questions many on the left want to ask the Greens. And I say this as a Green Party member.

@tomsavage8217

20 күн бұрын

Its not the duty of a left leaning journalist to be completely uncritical of the Green politicians just because we're the nicest mainstream party. If Carla's good at her job she'll have to face far harsher interviews than that.

@dglukesluthier

20 күн бұрын

@@PeterBattpsychoeconomics they weren't pertinent though, they were just incurious. Trying to set up this false dichotomy between young urban leftists and rural ninbys, flattening the HS2 objections down to 'some nice fields' despite years of very dedicated organising and protesting by mostly young activists which novara took zero interest in. We all know Michael's stances on these things, this was a great opportunity for the audience to hear a more nuanced take, maybe learn something. Instead it felt like he was just trying to score points.

@kilokahn_x3850

20 күн бұрын

I think MW was right to ask the questions he did. It’s not showing Bias, you get that on GB News.

@olb3587

20 күн бұрын

I think she did an excellent job responding to each of the challenging questions posed (maybe with a harsher tone than necessary) by Michael, and hinted at potential changes to HS2 policy after he pushed her on the topic. I do wish we could've heard a justification for their perspectives on nuclear power, especially since Aaron has cited it recently as his main issue with the Greens.

Michael seems to confuse the benefits of capitalism with the benefits of industrialization more generally. I'm not a tankie but even I acknowledge that the USSR vastly improved living standards for milions upon millions of people through a process of rapid industrialization, the pace of which could not be matched by most free market capitalist economies. This is basic dude.

Horrified by Michael's comments on capitalism.

I also got the Michael Walker cut.

Wow I love Carla Denyar ....I was chatting with my friends on Brighton and I was bragging about how much I knew about brittish politics because I watch navaro 36:08 but I was a little chuffed when I didn't knew know the green leader. I'm glad to know her now.

This HS2 had not been so macho about having the fastest train in Europe it could have easily been designed to leave the ancient woodlands alone.

Aaron sporting an Italy football shirt

i appreciate that nm shouldn't be a mouth-piece for a party but......Michael's questions were pretty tepid, conservative & didn't delve into real policy, similar to previous interviews with Green candidates. Carla Denyer held their own really well and gave very clear + concise response for every BBC News esque question he asked. also, just end of interview and no convo with Aaron or assessment of Greens at the current time when they're the only viable left wing party in the UK right now? pretty dang lib of you, Michael. and yr opinions on how great capitalism has been for humanity is pretty astounding, my bf and me had to pause the video every few minutes to discuss how ridiculous it was lmao

Carla won me over. I will be voting green 💚

@Dominatrix97

20 күн бұрын

Watch Downstream with Aaron and Zack Polanski before you do that.

wait did, mike just say suella was right???????!!!!! WHAT?

Omg stop your killing me Bastani! And Michael your as cute as button with/without hair cut. That's what I say to my adult son when he's looking a bit unkempt 😉

Dear dear Michael 👎

What were the infant mortality rates for chattel slavery, please?

I don't think there are people from Sudan going to UK. Maybe from other part of Africa, but not "Sudenn ". "Oh Sudan, Central Africa Republic, OH Congo. Oh etc." It's stupid.

Redistributive taxation and regulation lowered poverty not the 'free market'. Gilded Era capitalism increased poverty and it was reversed by progressive policies like breaking up the 'trusts' and regulating industrial extractive activities

The Tories have not been good to pensioners Aaron. If you were poorer in your youth/middle age you will be a very poor pensioner. Tories have halted the triple lock when it suits them. Older people just fear change and are very open to fearmongering electoral tactics.

michael really put on the clown makeup right in the middle

Given how much editing can change someone message silence is the best way to make a point.

Juicy! :}

We live in a capitalist world and that won't change but we need to make it fairer. We can't turn the clock back but we can shape the future for the better for all of us.

@jimmyporter8941

20 күн бұрын

It's not turning the clock back. The progression is tribalism, feudalism, mercantilism, capitalism, socialism, communism. Capitalism is not the end point. Its a transitional state.

I'm not a big fan of Suella Braverman

and another thing, the improvement of material conditions of people under capitalism is the result of class struggle, not a concession of the ruling classes. Working people took what they needed through class struggle in various arenas, including that of the institutions and the state.

I spend over a grand a year making up for lack of local services. When people on benefits have to take out loans of thousands pounds to lay for their kids healthcare and you tell me that only costs £1,000 a year extra to fix?! TAKE MY MONEY Hell, they can have £3,000 a year extra if it fixes the NHS and social services.

You could say things like goods are cheaper because of capitalism, but you can't say something like art is better because of capitalism. Not everything in a capitalist society is capitalistic or you may as well say humans are capitalist. Basically there has always been contradictions in capitalism.

The problem with Michael's argument is that he is associating markets with capitalism. Socialism is about ownership of the means of production. It is not a limitation on how goods and services are provided. Marxism does not rule out artisans selling their goods in a market. What matters is their ownership of the means of production, which prevents extraction/alienation of the value their labour adds by a capitalist. Since Michael has a strong interest in housing, let's call the capitalist a rentier. Whenever a workers' coop sells goods in a market, this is socialism, not capitalism. What is key to understanding the past 200 years is the explosion in surplus created by fossil fuels. The saying goes that "one barrel of oil has the same amount of energy of up to 25,000 hours of hard human labour". All metrics of standard of living, the one used here is child mortality, will go up when society is starts producing a vast surplus, and by far the biggest surplus in human history comes from fossil fuel. Going further back into history, once one farmer could feed 10 or however many, other people in society were able to start creating art, working on philosopy, working on tech, and other things higher on the pyramid of needs that drive society forward. I've not read Aaron's book but presumably the "luxury" in "luxury communism" refers to another jump in surplus from AI driven automation and a move to renewable energy, and the "communism" is an attempt to distribute this to more people than just Musk, Zuckerberg, Bezos, etc.

@37:23 onwards.. the lady in the red coat, totally looks suella up & down & stays silent.. says it all really.. no one wants to talk to her.. except, back at the studio, Fioana, actually calks her a war criminal to her face, brilliant.. totally out-classed.. 😂😂

Lol maybe they are going to tax the shit out of the rich

❤❤❤😊

Come on Michael, the statistics are boring