May 2023 Update! This used 3.0 ECM I put in 6 years ago is still working. It has outlived both previous brand new 2.5 ECMs. Is the 3.0 a better ECM than the 2.5? Is it lasting longer because I put one of those Zebra Instruments ECM surge protectors in ( amzn.to/3LCtZwl )? Or perhaps I've just been lucky with this one? Regardless, thanks to a commenter here, I was made aware of another product to convert one of these communicating ECM's (like the 2.5 or 3.0 used in my evolution system that talks to the main control board), to a standard robust 3 speed PSC motor through an independent logic board so no faults will be triggered. As far as the main board is concerned, there is still an ECM motor in the unit "talking" to it. I've been searching for such a product since my first 2.5 failed, and finally we have something. It's called a QwikSwap board made by Mainstream Engineering. The one for my 2.5/3.0 communicating system is their V3 QT6104 model: www.qwik.com/product/qwikswap-x1-x3-v3/ Here's an Amazon product link: amzn.to/2YdMLlj These things are around $330 USD, plus the cost of a new 3 speed PSC motor (about $125), bringing the final cost to around $450 USD, but that's less than a new ECM (a lot less up here in Canada), and you'll never have to worry about another expensive ECM motor failure. Just fire in an easy to source $125 PSC motor next time (if there is a next time). Another fairly recent budget option is to get one of the aftermarket Evergreen ECM & Motor units. These are less costly (about half the price) of the original Gentek motor/ECM combos and are said to be more robust. It's still an ECM motor however. If anyone has experience with the Evergreen ECM motors (good or bad), feel free to leave a comment below.

@charlescunningham3050

4 жыл бұрын

This is a good idea! Unfortunately, for me in the Colorado area, doesn't look like there are any distributors. Do you know how I could get my hands on one of these

@joeydelmarsjr.646

4 жыл бұрын

i saw it too on another video, good for DIY

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

On Line... I've seen them on eBay and at online hvac supply stores.

@scotthsmith8635

4 жыл бұрын

Jake Fournier The first thing you should do before going PSC is check the external static pressure on your duct system by taking a reading across the HVAC unit. If there is anything beyond 0.5 inches of static pressure then PSC may not be a solution There’s a reason why we use ECM motors and to overcome high external static pressure. You may also add return air grills and/or supply registers to reduce static pressure. Also undersized ductwork can be replaced

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

@Scott H Smith Sorry, but I have to chime in and no disrespect is meant since we are all learning here. I have checked ST on my system when the first & second ECM 2.5 failed and it was low both times & within spec. The best I can determine after further testing of my second failed 2.5 unit after digging it out of the potting compound (a 2 hour job) is one of the three back EMF circuits that tells the ECM where the motor is positioned for proper timing has failed. All 6 MOSFET's themselves were fine and working, but one of the three phases was not triggering. That's what causes that rumbling and jerky movement - only two of the 3 phases are powering. My best guess is not enough built in back EMF protection or simply not having enough component cooling. All anecdotal evidence to my one tested unit of course. Regardless, when it comes to PSC's retrofits for those that decide to go that route, no worries about restrictions with them. The higher the restriction (be it return or output), the less current a PSC will draw because it's not moving as much air and thus not working as hard. All standard motor driven impeller type pumps for fluid or air follow this principle of increased restriction = less current load. Now, such restrictions very well could cause higher loads and premature failure of ECM motors because they will presumably try to compensate for the reduction in air flow by spooling to higher RPM's to maintain their set flow rates, at least that's the reason I've been told by several HVAC engineers. I really would like to confirm this one way or the other on our residential Gentek ECM's by monitoring how much load is going across the MOSFETs while in operation as flow restriction is increased and decreased; but since they are sealed in silicone potting compound, there is no practical way for a homer owner to get to them for testing. Regardless if ECM motors do draw more current when flow is restricted and are being overworked and that is why they are pre-maturely failing, I still don't buy into this reasoning. Why? The beauty with all electronic 3 phase commutated motors is their ability to be "smart" and automatically speed up or slow down based on whatever algorithm is controlling them. If Gentek were honest, smart, and wanted to make a product that would last, they would have algorithmic safe guards programmed into the ECM to save both the motor and ECM control unit when high loads or ECM internal component over-temps are experienced, by throttling down the output, and on communicating system, flag a code if the condition persists. "System Malfunction - High Static Pressure Detected or High ECM Load/Temperature Detected." Most communicating systems as you point out already monitor static pressure as well so there is no reason the ECM's algorithm shouldn't be able to use that as well to throttle output to a safe level for the ECM. We are talking firmware, nothing special. Our little RC ESC's that are dirt cheap have a multitude of built in algorithmic protections such as over current, over temp, over speed, over/under voltage, high ripple, and if they were used in a model furnace that monitored static pressure, they would no doubt have over pressure protection as well. Some even have data logging/telemetry to help diagnose powering/load issues. So if a $60 RC ESC can have all that "smart" protection built into its control algorithm, why can't a $600+ consumer grade HVAC electronic controller have it? The only reason that I can come up with is Gentek & the furnace manufacturers are crooks, and their current line of brushless 3 phase electronic commutated controllers represent a false economy. Saving a few bucks a year on power doesn't offset a thousand dollar expense every five, or even ten years. Working families on modest or fixed incomes simply can't keep getting screwed over by these pirates. My god, there are people who have commented on here that have been quoted half the cost of a new furnace or higher for an ECM & Motor replacement. This has to end! No more excuses - time to hold these buggers accountable for their crap product.

You say that you are not an HVAC guy, yet you put together one of the greatest HVAC videos that I have ever seen. Great job!!!

you're better at trouble shooting, diagnosing, and finding parts than most of my service techs.

John, thank you so much for putting this video out there for us. I am halfway finished attending college for HVACR, and I'm researching countless resources, trying to learn as much as possible about this field. I can't wait to go back to class after Spring Break is over, remove a blower motor from one of our test/practice units, and show my instructor what I learned from watching your video! Again, thank you SO much!

@ParabellumX

Жыл бұрын

UPDATE: Wow! I really impressed my instructor! When I showed him, his eyes got wide! He smiled and said, "I can tell you're going to go far in this field. But don't get hung up in the details of things; just keep it simple. Remember; you're trying to make the most money in the shortest amount of time. If there's a problem with a motor, and you know for sure that the motor is bad, slap a new one in there for 'em, get your money, and go on to the next service call. In the end, their unit is back up and running again, you get rewarded handsomely for your knowledge and time well spent, and it's a win-win situation for everyone." 😏

Thank you John, it's wonderful to see DIY solutions. I have 3 x Bryant AC/Furnace systems all using HD44SE120 motors with 2.5 ECMs - installed, June 2008. One EMC just died yesterday Aug 2023 (15 years later). I will be following your good advice.

One of the better explanations than I have seen on line. That "Canuck" accent...... love it.

I have a similar carrier. My furnace guy tracked it down to the ECM control unit, and correctly predicted the capacitor would have a burn mark. I ordered one from mouser and soldered it in. The company quoted $1800 to purchase and install a new board. The capacitor was $8. Tomorrow I'll put it together and see it if works!

@nrjank

Ай бұрын

Did it work?

You make all us Canucks proud by doing this...keep your stick on the ice my friend!

Great video. How many of us are left who work on our own stuff and learned about electronics back in the day before microprocessors?

Thanks! @John Salt That Quick Swap V3 saved me $1300. I just did it after finding your video on 6/13/22. I can't thank you enough! I got my parts from supplyhouse which sold me everything. The V3, a motor and a capacitor. I was going to buy amazon but they had junk psc motors and they were costly. I found a variable speed 1/2-1/6HP for $90.00, the cap was $3 and the V3 was $350-380ish. I cant remember. But shipping was overnight and free. Thanks again! I'm the hero to my wife! The past two days have been the hottest days in 10 years here. I was quoted at $1850.00 for a new ECM motor.

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

That is great news Ben you got yours working with the QwikSwap, saved a good deal of coin, and you were able to get all the components from Supplyhouse (nice one stop shopping). Wish they would ship up to Canada - great selection of parts. Always a good thing to be a "hero" to the most powerful person in our lives - the wife 🙂Thanks so much for the Super Thanks. Will put it toward the V3 conversion when I have to get one when this used ECM puffs out its last electron. I have another used one here, but I know I would feel better with the QwikSwap. Stay cool mate...

Currently going through this hell. Ditching ECM's since they are designed to fail and the manufacturer made them unrepairable by potting the components that fail. Not unlike the garbage disposals designed to rust out after 8 years. Probably going three phase motor with variable VFD or split phase. Just need some air moving in the air handler and duct system, since I put three mini-splits in my house. Much better than a $13K single heat pump, which always fails in August and we're screwed with a $500 emergency call. Thanks for the vid.

Thank you very much! Loved the common sense comments. Pos is right. I didn’t even know this thing was on fan. After trying everything else, in Florida heat I called good local company. He obviously knew what it was when he walked in door. I already had covers off. He changed out & it works. I haven’t gotten bill yet, but wifey happy & quality of wife means A LOT 😀. I’ll know if there’s a next time. Carrier now made in Mexico! Lots of folks lost their jobs in Indiana because of this change.

Thank you very very much!!! Now understand how to troubleshoot this items, thanks for the RC comparative analysis!

Easy replacement on a heat pump air handler! I installed a relay off the control side to the fan! Had to make sure it worked for emergency heat too! I hate ECM motors too!😅

I believe that any money saved from lower fuel consumption are far outweighed by the maintenance of the furnace. I was a Bryant dealer. Loved the furnace and loved selling them . . . . .UNTIL . . . they started breaking down and costing $1K or more to repair. Always sold with a 10 year parts and labor. But $1,000+ repair expense after warranty expiration is still too much and exceeds any energy savings. Just my experienced opinion. Maybe they're better now.

@mattboorom9909

2 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t agree more!

@NoSuffix

2 жыл бұрын

You are absolutely right!

@OnePointLander

2 жыл бұрын

10 year labor ? Wow thats impressive.

@pipsqueak631

Жыл бұрын

Born to break.

Great video John, well done and very explicit. I will over my unit tomorrow and believe is the ECM.

Just experienced the same problem with mine at home. Luckily its still under warranty. Didn't read through all the comments, only the first 100 +/-. Someone may have mentioned this already but they do sell a ECM motor surge protector. As the packaging states "The most common cause of ECM motor failure is damage to the electronics module as a result of poorly conditioned voltage." I'm looking at the VZPRO from zebra HVAC. It's a very simple harness that plugs in line with existing motor and wire harness. My local hvac supplier has them for just over 30 bucks. Considering the alternative, it's a very small price to pay if it works.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Zebra's VZPRO's ECM surge protector is mentioned somewhere in the comments, and I installed one on my unit shortly after I made this video from that recommendation. By all accounts, there is already adequate surge suppression & filtering within the ECM going by the number of MOV's and inrush current limiter on the input side of the circuit board; but as you say, for $30 beans, it's certainly worth trying and won't do any harm. There is no doubt these ECM's hate dirty voltage. My used 3.0 is till going strong and it's been over 3 years now, so who knows... Maybe the external surge protector is actually working 🙂

Wow...Brilliant...been looking for this exact description and trouble shooting...soo many identical videos that miss the other components......multiple capacitors within explains my intermittent no start on nearly new chinese goodman perfectly..Thank you and please continue .......just 1 rc guy to another......thx

Great Video. I understand that Trane has a universal choke kit for problematic ECM motors. Rather than repeatedly changing the ECM module. It protects the module from power surges

@chrisguillen1495

3 ай бұрын

That’s the number one killer of these motors.

Thank you for all the detail you covered here. Got me in my family back in the cool zone amongst this Texas heat. Appreciate you.

Great video sir; its still helping people like me. I have a Rheem 3.5 ton with the Gentaq X13 ECM installed in air handler. I observed the motor would jog back and forth for up to five minutes before running steady. There was my answer in the 14 of the ECM Service Guide. Saved me from plunking down up to $300 for a new motor. Thanks you so much.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Good to hear

The first thing you should do before going PSC is check the external static pressure on your duct system by taking a reading across the HVAC unit. If there is anything beyond 0.5 inches / 125 Pa of static pressure then PSC may not be a solution There’s a reason why we use ECM motors and manytimes to overcome high external static pressure. You may also add return air grills and/or supply registers to reduce static pressure. Also undersized ductwork can be replaced

@robertjackson7590

Жыл бұрын

Excellent info Scott, Thank You. I had an Inrush Thermistor fail after 20 years and if I had it failing at 5y I'd be checking supply voltage and your advice. John might have an underlying problem.

Thank you for the video. Technician came in and flat out told me everything in my system was crap and wanted me to pay thousands through their preferred loan company to replace it all. Sent him packing and went up myself and pulled out the blower. Found the 2.3 version installed and your video helped answer a lot of questions I had on replacing it and getting the right information.

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Glad it helped

@traumajock

3 жыл бұрын

same here. We contracted with a local company to do maintenance on the HVAC in my rental property. They said I needed a whole new system. I took apart and rebuilt the previous system in that small crawlspace by myself (20 years ago). I pulled the blower assembly and am changing out the ECM. Found one on ebay for 130 bucks. I hired them so I wouldn't have to crawl my old ass in that hot attic again. Lesson learned. I used to repair cameras with tiny little parts, so big sheet metal boxes with a fan and a small amount of electronics don't scare me.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of electronics as well as your experience with the repair.

Hi John ... I want to thank you for this video. My problem initially was furnace would need power reset and then finally it stopped altogether. It also was giving blower motor problem on LED light. Motor also pulsed like yours. I bought a used ecm on ebay. Luckily the guy was only 1 hour away so i picked it up. I plan on trying to take the conformal coating off of old ecm and try to trouble shoot original problem. Will update if i can fix it. Thank you for this great video. You saved lots of money for a lot of people.

@nrjank

Ай бұрын

Old comment, but did you have any luck playing around with the old one?

John, thanks for your video and assistance. I have an Amana unit which is similar to Goodman and other brands out there. So it’s not just Carrier and their other product line. It’s almost every HVAC manufacturer that utilizes ECM. Mine ran for about 9 years and then a capacitor went out in the ECM. Mainly due to your DIY video and a few other informative pieces I’m just going to replace the capacitor. While I’m waiting for the part to come in, I installed a 120V 3/4 HP PSC motor and capacitor. Plugged into the wall for constant run so that we could stay comfortable. Good luck to all.

Good job! I'm glad it was May and not January that you were waiting two weeks for this part. Otherwise I don't think your Hudson Bay blanket would've kept you warm.

John this is the most accurate and clear procedure for my exact situation... Thank you very much for sharing this!

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Glad it was helpful.

Thanks, that was great. I am having this issue right now. Odd that my AC failed last night and this shows up in my feed this morning. 🤔

Thanks for information 45 years of service first one I've ever seen

excellent video more information than a furnace manufacture thanks keep up the good work

Thank you Sir. You made troubleshooting my unit a breeze. Quick, easy, cheap repair

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Glad it helped.

Exercising caution by not 'lighting' ones self up; words to live by for sure. Good overall information regarding ECM's. Should help this DIY'er... thanks!

Saved my ass! I have the exact same old module as yours. Thank you!

You ROCK!!! Especially enjoyed/and share the sarcasm and utter contempt. Nice job, too, clearly showing each vital step on camera. AAA+++

Thank you! I learn something new to safe some money in my a/c unit air handle, I didn't known this fix, ecm fix. and bought the whole ecm motor about Two year ago I put it my self the a/c company want to charge me almost 1300 I save about 1,000 dollars, ecm cost about 300.00 dollars. Thanks a gain.

Great explanation, and production.

I watched your video and it matched my case exactly. So I ordered the Module from EBay and was back up in 5 days. Thanks for making such a clear and easy to follow video.

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Glad it helped.

I did the same repair approx 3 years ago when my ECM motor controller failed. The 3.0 conversion I installed is still working and I hope it provides me with dependable service for a few more years to come. Thanks for a great video and your commentary is wonderful!

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Nice work.

@randyrivera1089

Жыл бұрын

do i need to program a new or used ecm?thanks

Nice! So my parents must have one of these motors. hVAC tech took the motor today and returned with a new motor and said it was bad, and he had to take it to the shop and program the motor. I think they got shafted and it was by another HVAC tech. He’s partying tonight!! Woohoo!! 1500$

Thank you for the excellent job posting and explaining the ECM module replacement. I just finished replacing my ECM Module on a American Standard furnace AUD080R9V3K4 with the help of your video. The new OEM part cost me 700 Canadian ordered online in Canada. I got in a local HVAC company and was quoted 2500 for part and replacement (wanted a professional diagnostic done before I ordered the part and confirmation of the part number). If anyone else is looking for the ECM module part number it is Trane ECM BLOWER MOTOR MODULE MOD02186 (This one is programmed from factory). The replacement of the ECM module was a little more intense with a removal of the blower motor and ECM module before I could get at the ECM Module. took 1.5 hours to complete and everything is working. The HVAC company would of made 2K off of me for 1.5 hours of work. Lawyers do not make that an hour. Shame on you HVAC company. I also have two zones and two furnaces so I was not in a hurry situation. Thanks again John and I am also a RC guy and am very, very grateful for your post.

Love the detailed video and the self-deprecating sense of humor. Just thought I would let you know that when you rectify 230VAC, you get ~320V DC because 230V is the RMS and the peak will be 325V. About 4-5V is dropped in the rectifier diodes.

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, thanks for pointing that out.

You have a fantastic teaching skill thank you so much 😊

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

Thanks & you're very welcome. 🙂

Thank you for the excellent video and explanation of how to diagnose ECM motors! You may have saved me from a large repair bill if it works!

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

Glad it may have helped - thanks for the visit.

Thanks for this video - not only informative, but entertaining too.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it

Thanks for your video. Like you, I did it myself for an older carrier unit and saved $973.00 over the cost of a HVAC tech. Frankly, I think this is ridiculous for a couple of hours work max. Also, I will be avoiding the newer Carrier units per your ownership experience. I replaced the entire unit (motor and ECM) from the Tampa outfit, who sells motors and ECMs sealed as a warranted unit together.

Great video I have just an AC blower and the ecm seams to be bad but was built in 1999.

Great video!! Ill love to learn more from you!! I have 10+ years of experience as a HVAC-R tech under my belt, you definitely impressed many of us !

I have a problem with my furnace not working and upon further investigation because of your video I found the problem, thanks for sharing the video

John, Thank you so much for your video. Most of AC guys in youtube doesn't explain in detail like you. It was very informative. I have an air handler with an ECM motor. When it breaks, I know what to do. Mine is Goodman. But I am sure it is from the same manufacturer.

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Glad it helped

Nicely done John. Great info

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks 👍

I had a customer with a Carrier system where the EMC motor only ran on high. It took replacing the module to solve the problem. I get feedback that the 2 stage gas system uses more gas to heat but it's still a Comfort System. And the 2 stage or more stage systems are great at dehumidification in Summer.

You definitely know more than I. As a tech, I have a tool for diagnostic and customers who pay to get their A/C running.

John thanks for the video and information!

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

🙂

Hi. You just saved me a lot of money. Many thanks to you for doing this video.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Glad I could help

Thanks.. I enjoyed the nerd level detail. Say Hi to all my Canadian relatives...

You are better than service tech, most service tech their main job is replacement parts only and charge money, they dont care to spend time and fix problems

Great video. I have the same exact furnace and my motor just cogs back and forth and wont spin up! Replaced the motor and ECM in September with a remanufactured one from United HVAC motors in FL and now that one has gone out! Ugh! Frustrating! It's cold here in Indiana now and need it replace ASAP! thanks again!

thank you for making this- awesome video!

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Glad you liked it

24yr tech here... don't take all four screws off the bar. The outer screws hold it in place, the inner screws hold the bar to the blower housing. It'll serve as a handle.

Can confirm this worked with a Bryant 355mav series h. Thanks so much!

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Sorry ,No idea, I'm not an HVAC tech.

@MSeanMcClellan

4 жыл бұрын

John Salt Sorry for the confusion! I’m saying it did work with that model. Thankfully it was listed in the service bulletin you showed :)

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Ah yes, sorry for my misunderstanding. Glad it worked with the 355mav series as well😀

GREAT VIDEO! I have the same problem and system

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Hope you can get yours working too. 👍

Hi, Many thanks for the great video...it seems I have the exact same controller configuration... could you please share the link to that helpful Ebay seller you purchased the 3.0 control unit from? Many thanks

I think it’s funny how he says I’m a do it yourselfer. I am the technician and I’ve had nothing but problems since the beginning. Lol

Good video. Educational and entertaining.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching 👍

Great video, ordering a hd46ar265 tomorrow for my carrier unit, this looks exactly like mine. Happy to have found you just in time.

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

Glad I could help

Good job for self repair

The device you referred to as a fuse/current limiter is actually a NTC thermistor... it limits the inrush current on initial power up... part number SL22 IR020... about 5$ on amazon...

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

Guess that's why I referred to it as a current limiter _"it limits the inrush current on initial power up"._ 😉

@nsideguy1

5 ай бұрын

Over the years the NTC thermistor have not always been the same for all 3x versions motor modules. Removing/attaching the line voltage connection to module with power still on, can also cause an arcking which could fail the thermistor. The way you tugged on the connector can also deform the pins, thus causing a poor or lacking connection. In general the fail due to power surges (lighting, poor earth ground or electrocuted squirrels). I was extremely impressed with your video. I dealt with the GE designed motor and its evolution for 33-years before retiring in 2018. The 1st generation motor was installed in a 1984 Carrier furnace model 58SXB. The pulse width modulator was separate and mounted on the back of the blower housing. In 1986 it was coupled with a variable speed inverter driven compressor A/C (38EV) or heat pump (38QV). The thermostat (Parker Electronics) was a DDC control that communicated to both indoor and outdoor unit just like your Bryant Evolution or Carrier Infinity system. The ECM (a.k.a. ICM) motor itself hardly ever fails. Failures are usually in the electronics or connections. Fan coils like yours, encounters a higher failure rate than gas furnaces. The electronics are in the cold air discharge of the fan during cooling, thus in high humidity conditions would condense water on the electronics and connections. There are 3-different modules 1/2, 3/4 and 1- horse power which are used in both 230vac fan coils and 115 vac gas furnaces. The modules will operate on both voltages. There is a jumper wire in furnace harness at motor to tell motor which input voltage. High efficiency motors were mandated by our federal politicians in 2018 just like the implementation of seat belts in cars. FYI starting in 2025 all new cars will be mandated to have a device to ensure the driver is not under the control alcohol.

Good job sir!

Great job bro.

Thank you. This might save me a bunch of money. CAL

Great you saved a lot of pesos

Check and make double sure about good airflow ie: no closed or undersized ducts and vents, filter isn’t restrictive and to high of static pressure. Check total external static psi- most residential systems can’t run too far above .5 “ w.c manufacturers recommendation. If so the ecm motor will always be in a ramping mode running harder than it should burning it up frequently. I’ve been a technician for 22 years, most of the time when I see the ecm motor failing it’s because people are not changing their filter or their ductwork is undersized otherwise these motors are great and they can last 20+ years.

@Rchelicopterfun

3 жыл бұрын

Yes, the 3 phase brushless motors last a very long time as I stated in the video - no argument there; but we are not discussing a motor failure, we are discussing the high failure rate of the 3 phase brushless motor controllers (the ECM). As I've stated to point of ad nauseam in the comments, that is first thing I checked (our Evolution system already has that static pressure checking built-in) and the static pressure is always well within what is recommended in our manual and what has been confirmed in countless forum threads and by others commenting (under the 0.5" range as you too mentioned). Of course, that is not the same as performing a proper static test on both the return & supply run so I appreciate the Evolution static reading could be wrong or limited in accuracy. We never block/shut ducts. We run an electronic air filter that has little air flow restriction unlike media filters. I clean the cells every 3 months, and the evaporator coil is checked annually. Plenum design & installation was also done by one of the top HVAC contractors in our area so I would hope the duct & plenum restriction hypothesis can also be put to rest? My two (thus far) ECM failures are therefore unlikely caused by restriction. Even if they were however, any ECM unit on a communicating system that already monitors static pressure should automatically log a restriction/pressure fault if that be the case. Of course it never has. Moreover, our little brushless 3 phase controllers on our RC models will warn of excessive draw and automatically ramp down power to cool the mosfets and other components to prevent over-temp & overload. A $500USD ($700CND)+ HVAC residential ECM brushless controller should be able to do the same - no? Is that really too much to expect when paying this kind of money? The ECM's micro controller is already monitoring current load in relation to RPM - that is how they self adjust both RPM & torque is it not? How hard would it be to include several lines of firmware code to have them safeguard the electronics? Further, I went to the time & trouble and dug the components out of the potting compound in my one failed ECM 2.5's and it was not one or more of the 6 mosfets that pooped the bed - they were all still good. It was the EMF feedback circuit in one of the phases so the ECM didn't know the armature position and when to time the pulses. That is not indicative of an overload failure mechanism or is it? Have you or the industry in general done post failure analysis of the ECM's to determine exactly what component's on them fail most often? If not, then these "high static pressure excuses" are nothing more than hypothesis based on anecdotes are they not? From my anecdotal experiences and that of many others; residential HVAC ECM's are undersigned, under protected, and overpriced/over hyped in a market with little to no competition. Thus the high pricing and poor excuses made to justify their high failure rates; blaming the installation, the duct work design, the owner, the filter maintenance etc. without any real data to support these excuses; at least none that I can find after years of searching. Please provide post failure analysis data to support such excuses. Even if they are failing due to restrictions wherever they may occur in the system, there should be effective safeguards in place when the technology already exists within these ECM's to simply shut down, ramp down, or log a restriction or high static pressure fault if that is the real reason for their high failure rate. You see many of us informed homeowners have come to the conclusion that residential HVAC ECM's are simply under engineered and designed to fail within a given time frame to pad the industry's pockets. The HVAC industry won't provide proof of the failure mechanism, just the regurgitated "high static pressure" excuse, so that's why so many of us are coming to this assertion. In short, ECM failure mechanism notwithstanding, residential HVAC ECM technology sucks! Any technology that is responsible for heating & cooling our homes that is too fragile to cope (if your high static pressure excuse is the real reason behind these failures), is pathetically under designed/engineered and is nothing but a cash grab to empty homeowners pockets while at the same time blaming them &/or the HVAC system installer for the failure. Shameful.

Great video, I had the same problem with a York Diamond 80 only it looks like the themistor is burned with no current going through, I am just ordering a new one now, it looks like it is fairly easy to solder in.

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Hope it works 👍

@BarryWinner2075

2 жыл бұрын

Works great after soldering in the new thermister, and it only cost $6 for two of them, Fixed it just in time for the winter heating season , They wanted $1100 for a new ECM motor

nice thanks for the information

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Welcome

Good video. Yea you have the older 2.5 motor. Almost 99% of time the motor module is the problem. What sucks there are a lot of brands that wont sell the module by itself, so you end up buying the entire ECM motor / module.

Great video so far, but before you test for continuity, its always good to test your leads 1st

Thank you John for taking time and making this video and also following up with the questions/comments. I am also coming from an RC scene and am fairly familiar with Brushless motors/ESC system. It was fun to watch you explain all that. In my Carrier heat pump unit, there is one of those f...ing stupid ECM motors that is sold under the environmentally friendly/high efficiency scam. The one in my unit is called ECM X13. The original motor lasted for 3.5 years(Didn't know it was under 5-year part warranty at the time). Bought a replacement which lasted only one year. After the 2nd motored burned out, I was still under 5-year warranty and was able to get a replacement motor for free. That one lasted 5 years then said bye... Bought another one which lasted less than a year. So 4 blower motors in about 10 years. That is enough for me to call this technology a piece of $hit. I am highly considering doing a PSC induction motor conversion. It may not be as efficient in a short term but heck it will be more efficient in the long run because it will last for decades...

@Rchelicopterfun

5 жыл бұрын

Yep, a total POS is right! I maintain these stupid things are no good for home HVAC applications after hearing more and more comments just like yours. As I mentioned to another commenter, they represent a total false economy. I'm interested in these PSC conversions too. I've heard a little bit about them, but nothing more than that. Do you have any good links to something explaining the options/procedures (if any yet)? I can only imagine if someone came out with PSC conversion modules for all the various ECM's out there, so we could all convert to good & proven reliable induction motors, they would make a small fortune!

@iskoos

5 жыл бұрын

John, there are a few KZread videos showing how to do the ECM to PCS conversion but I found none of them shows it step by step for people that aren't in the field. Though it shouldn't be a big deal. PSC equivalent motor is easy to find and pretty much a direct replacement. Costs about 100 bucks brand new. A few wiring will need to be changed/rerouted and a capacitor will need to be added. (Maybe in some cases a relay or contactor). That's pretty much it. Probably one hour job for someone who knows what to do. Not sure if a module that converts the ECM to PSC would be practical or even possible since ECM motors are running on DC power. Someone though (if they ever) may come up with an aftermarket control module to fit on the current ECM motors and if their price is competitive and their units last, they will definitely make money off this. I have several ECM motors in my hand. All would need a working module and they would be good to go...

@Rchelicopterfun

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the info on the PSC conversion. I'm wondering however how that method wouldn't throw a code since the mother board is not seeing any communication from the ECM telling it the motor is in fact working? With this Carrier/Bryant Evolution system I have, any funrance/fancoil motor fault code shuts the entire system down. I'm sure other systems are different and don't do that however by quickly reading a few PSC conversion posts. My thought on the "PSC conversion module" would be a device that plugs into the communication 4 connector plug that communicates with the main board in its native protocol. The power plug would also plug into it to supply the motor power. That main power plug is by the way supplying VAC; it's the rectifying circuit in the ECM that changes it to DC. At any rate, the conversion module would communicate with the mother board and trigger the relay/s as instructed by the mother board to send 120vac to the PSC motor. Turning it on, off, and if it's a multi speed PSC motor, at what RPM stage to run at (low, medium, high for example with three different relays). All the time communicating back to the main board in the furnace or fancoil all is working well so the mother board won't know any different and throw codes. Doubt it would be easy, but if affordable & more robust aftermarket communicating ECM's are ever available, conversion ones to run a different type motor should be possible as well? I would love to see a lower cost aftermarket option to these things. Even if they are just as crappy, they would drive the cost of the OEM Genteq ones down. You hit on the biggest issue with these ECM motors (next to their disposable failure rate), zero competition! Genteq can charge whatever they want to, and they are doing just that as we all know.

@iskoos

5 жыл бұрын

Hmmm, You know? You do have a point there!.. I never thought about the smart thermostats that get feedback from the ECM motor. My thermostat is a simply relay device that sends a signal to the air handler's board so it can energize the 24 volt wire to start the ECM motor. It is a dumb device. It doesn't know what's going on at the motor end. All I have to do is to add a contactor that uses the 24volt to energize the 230volt-end which will be connected to the PSC motor. And all should be good to go. And this setup will have a one-speed setting obviously. The speed of the PSC motor could be manually adjusted I believe. But since you have a kind of smart thermostat, I do understand it won't be this easy. Yes, your thermostat may refuse to control the motor thinking that something is wrong since it won't get any feedback. You may go back to a simple thermostat:) Genteq has a few competitors as I see now. There is the Evergreen motors that replace ECM X13 (not the kind you have though). Then I found a X13 Rescue motor but really didn't hear good things about it. Then lately I found Azure Digi motors by Mars. This one might be promising. I will check them a bit more before going with PSC route. I also found an ECM motor rebuilt center in south Florida (They are in Tampa) and it seems they rebuild all types of ECM motors made by Genteq. They sell it either a complete motor or just the module. They have your motor in stock. They only give 60-day warranty though. It will work but not sure if it is smart to spend money on. Because I know they will quit in a few months. They are the same design motors made by Genteq and I have zero trust on this company (Genteq). There is a design flaw on these motor modules. Manufacturer doesn't want to recognize it. But all the HVAC guys know this issue. Something will eventually happen and this problem will come to an end. I don't know when. I would love to use a variable speed/torque motor than a PSC motor but only if a reliable design comes into market...

@tomtom1541

2 жыл бұрын

@@iskoos do you realise that if you have an issue like high static that will cause motors to fail over and over again?

ECM motors have become more robust since they first appeared but two main causes of failure are excessive duct static and electrical surges. That zebra surge protector is a great product. Duct design/new construction quality needs to improve instead of leaving it behind for the service industry to fix.

thanks for the info.. I just put in a electric variable speed motor..( plus a controller) so I'm back to under three hundred bucks for a ac motor.

Good for you man. Enjoyed your video.

@Rchelicopterfun

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching

PCS conversation best money option , these things are supposed to save you money on power , and they do for the short time they work . The more complex they make this stuff, the more the cost of staying cool or worm go’s up . Best longe term option go low efficiency and save money over all by not having problems for decades.

@Rchelicopterfun

8 ай бұрын

So true. As the engineering adage goes "complexity hampers both execution and reliability."

I offer the option to replace the ECM with a standard motor and use relays to call the speeds. It is the preferred option for most home owners that have already replaced one that died much too early. Cost is typically $450 (give or take based on the system). Most folks just get fed up with getting screwed and want something cheaper and more reliable.

@Rchelicopterfun

Жыл бұрын

How do you manage a relay mod with communicating systems like this Evolution system that requires communication with the ECM to function? The only 3 speed PSC motor mod I'm aware of that will work with communication systems is the QuickSwap board by Mainstream Engineering (about the same price as your relay mod). If there is a simple relay method that works with a communicating system mother board, we would all love to know about it. 🙂

You are awesome!

I have replaced a few of these thermistors now with good success. Since heat seems to be the problem with these devices failing, I decided to cool them off! With the circuit board removed from the bell housing, I drilled 4 half inch holes in the steel bell housing at the north, east, south, & west compass points. After a number of months later, no thermistor failures‼️The engineering on this GE motor was atrocious to begin with. From the lack of adequate ventilation to the underrated spec on the thermistor itself, (I selected a different thermistor that is more robust for the application) I would have to say, this motor was ENGINEERED to fail. When I first encountered this variable speed disaster, they were selling for $510 wholesale. For the poor customer, the installed cost was nearly $1000. The homeowner deserves much better than this.

@xiradio

4 жыл бұрын

I looked at one for a neighbor a few years back and the inrush thermistor was blown. $7 from Amazon and a couple solder joints and it was back up and running. I can't imagine the quote she would have gotten from an HVAC company. Also, it looks like the 3.0 now eliminates that DIY repair as it's all in one glue covered board. Amazing.

You could de-pot the lower board for testing and component replacement. But if theyll cover a different module best to go that route.

One thing to keep in mind. The direction you attached the ecm and routed the cables through the top didn't create a service loop. You'll want to either face the connector down or create a service loop with the wiring to prevent water (condensation from the evaporator cold Temps in the summer) from flowing down the cables into the ecm connector.

@Rchelicopterfun

6 жыл бұрын

Good catch there on the drip loop. Yes, important practice to follow and it even states it in the Genteq Service Guide I link to above. After catching that in the service guide, I did rotate the motor so the plug is now near the bottom (7 o-clock to be exact) with a proper wire drip loop. At that time, I also installed one of those Zebra VZPro ECM protectors. amzn.to/2Bwogph Not sure if they work or are just snake oil considering the ECM already has a MOV in it for voltage surges, but figured for $35 bucks, it was worth installing. Going on 8 months now with that used 3.0 in there and the fan has been running on low speed 24/7 and of course on higher speeds during cooling and heating cycles - so far, so good. Keeping fingers crossed :-)

@JackJensenTrader

Жыл бұрын

@@Rchelicopterfun Great stuff, with the video and now the update! Re: the Zebra, I'm looking at that, too (still troubleshooting my issue), but my thought would be it's easier to replace that than replacing a blown MOV, right? It would damage the MOV if it does its thing, correct? Re: troubleshooting, is the reason you didn't confirm you were getting correct voltage sent to the ECM because of the error code indicated that wasn't the issue?

I just replaced one of these 650 us bucks for the full Assembly. It looked like I was starting to have bearing wear so I replaced both. But I want o have one ECM controller on hand "just in case" for the cold day and no heat issue. I think you can get them new for 180 bucks at some online stores. Hard to say tho that if the ECM fails it will not take out the motor too. I almost swapped the blower motor assembly for a split y cap AC motor. Way cheaper. But was worried about messing up the air flow.

👏👏👏 good video

Pretty good video....a lot better than many "pro" HVAC channels. Thanks.

Hey thanks for sharing😊😊😊😊😊😊

@Rchelicopterfun

3 ай бұрын

Thanks for watching

Looking at your parts, its apparent it was re-engineered due to a high failure rate. The Heat Sink has the biggest advantage with the semiconductors which are known to fail due to poor heat dissipation on the tin cover. Kudos on saving money.

I found bad return airflow will kill these motors. Change filters often and have someone check static pressure for bad duct flow

Cleanest furnace I've ever seen. Is it new?

DC doesn't have Phase, that is a function of AC cyclical power. Maybe '3 wire DC motor' is more accurate. Nice and helpful video.

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

You are 100% correct. Many of us "RC'ers" call these things brushless DC motors, since that is what they are called and marketed as in our world. So yes, in actuality these HVAC ECM motors are a 3 phase AC motor. The voltage regulation side of ECM first converts the single phase 60 HZ AC input to your furnace/fancoil into DC and then the electronics within take over and convert it into a 3 phase AC waveform which can be altered in amplitude, wavelength, and even shape by some controllers to vary the output speed and torque of the motor. Back EMF from the motor is used to correctly time the phases with the motor rotation speed.

@apostolakisl

3 жыл бұрын

I think it all sort of depends on your definition of "phase". Instead of three wires that "pulse" voltage in sine wave at 120 degrees offset with a freq set by the utility, it is a 3 phase motor with variably controlled "pulse" frequency and duration that rises and falls more or less as a square wave. My understanding is that the windings on the motor are essentially the same as the standard 3 phase configuration, however the ECM only powers two of them at once and uses the 3rd to sense the position of the rotor via hall effect. Since it has fixed magnets instead of induction magnets, you have to have some way of keeping your stator magnetic field in the right place, hence a computer that knows where the rotor is. Well, at least this is how I understand it. I too have a Carrier Infinity and have had to replace one of my condensor fans. It kills me that the ECM board goes bad and you end up throwing away perfectly good windings. I also had the GE motor, not sure which model number, but I could clearly see where the ECM fried itself. The board was fully potted so it was pretty much impossible to fix it. But this whole thing is a bunch of crap. Fortunately I have 3 units in my house so things are still tolerable with one unit out provided you leave doors open and use some fans to move air around. But if you only had one unit and lived in the great white north, what the heck would you do if the thing went out in Feb and the parts were 5 days out.

VERRY informative....my blower quit 2 days ago and I let the Ruud service folks find the blower motor and module "failed" and the replacement motor and module would cost $1200 USD. I've been trying to educate myself on the module - you've given me the most info. My motor is 3/4 hp and has a ECM 2.3 module. The new motor with module was installed so now I have the old motor and module on the bench. I removed the module and found some arcing on the circuit and the motor checked out fine, equal resistance between coils and no coil to ground found. My ECM 2.3 lasted 10 years - now hearing your experience, I am concerned whether to just put a ECM 2.3 from Ebay as a spare. I wonder if I can also find a converter plug to upgrade to a ECM 3.0? Thanks for a great video!!

@jasonostler9221

4 жыл бұрын

A lot of times if the capacitor or the thermistor are blown on the ECM module, you can de-solder them and solder on new components for cheap. Not sure if your unit had visible damage like mine did. I just had to replace two capacitors and the thermistor for $37 and few hours of work.

Hearing too many horror stories about the high efficiency units. I'm keeping my 80% furnace running as long as I can. Last year I re capped the mainboard, changed out the gas valve, oiled the motor, and replaced the inducer fan. Hope to get another 20 years.

@Freon1969

3 жыл бұрын

I have a Rheem 95% Gas furnace with a PSC motor and it is fantastic! 12+ and no issues. I think the problem comes with the ECM stuff.

I wish I'd watched this 5 hours ago!!

Nice video with lots of good info, thank you for the links! What sort of RC are you running these days? I have done lots of fixed wing in the past but lately me a several buddies have been racing Dromida SCT on my small dirt oval track, and more recently we switched to 1/10 scale Slash 2WD. Thanks again for the video!

@Rchelicopterfun

4 жыл бұрын

I'm 100% helicopters :-)

Say John, i have the same motor just replaced w a new mtr/cntrl. I figured it was the contoller but the factory parts guy said the whole unit was all they listed. Under the circuit board theres a connection between red and negative on the nearest capacitor. Looks like a fuse. Any way to replace that? That looks like the only spot but " dammit jim! I'm a plumber not an electrician!