Great video! The result was pretty much what I expected as I've done a similar test in my own rifles. What I've found is my very best groups with FL vs NO are never the same charge (all else being equal). FL might shoot the tightest group with xx.9 grns of a specific powder and NO shoots it's tightest groups with xx.3 grns of the same powder. However, both groups are crazy similar in size when I find the best charge for that sizing technique. Bottom line is: both methods can produce excellent results if you spend the time to tune the load. I tend to use FL in my hunting rifles (allowing for dirt and dust and crazy temp swings) and NO in rifles that I only shoot at the range. Not saying that's the right move, just my logic that makes sense to me.

@leeroyhuawei51

4 жыл бұрын

I would have liked to have seen how far the FL size die pushes back the shoulder in comparison to the neck sized (fire formed) shoulder. It's not really a question of whether to FL size or not. Instead, the question is how far to push back the shoulder. That is, for some folks, FL resize means pushing shoulder back 0.002 while for others FL size means pushing shoulder back 0.010 or 0.015. In other words, tests like this need to better define exactly what is happening to the brass by measuring the cartridge base to datum line.

@BoltActionReloading

4 жыл бұрын

FL sizing would have been .002 to .003. No more unless you are trying for a case head separation. Never a need for more than .003 unless you are trying to fit in everyone's rifle.

@fluxcapacitor05

3 жыл бұрын

Have some conviction and stop being a coward -- pick a side. The answer is, FL is the only advantage either way. Neck sizing is fuddlore, pure and simple, and all of our grandfathers were duped by it. And in turn, all of our dad's, who told us this nonsense, were also wrong. Stop neck sizing. It is an inferior and silly method to go about precision shooting and will only keep you chasing your tail all day.

@pearlrival3124

3 жыл бұрын

@@fluxcapacitor05 I neck size and I outshoot you every day (;

@daviddiebold7357

3 жыл бұрын

Since you fl size every time you cram the bolt home why not just fl to start. Iirc you can send a lee die in and $15 with a fired case and they make a custom from it. No was for the old days and belted cases with sloppy chambers. Head spacing on the belt was a bad deal. So fire forming and no or partial sized was the way to go. The accuracy gain from shoulder head spacing started a trend in non belted. As time progresses their was a die change and better factory chambers. Leading to cramming bolts and no sizing becoming a thing of the past. Naturally what your ruffle like is better then any advice.

I really appreciate your 'what works best for you' attitude, I started reloading at the age of 12 in 1961 with a Sako Forester Deluxe in .243 Winchester. Dad didn't have time so he put me in charge of all reloading, both shotgun and rifle after strictly pointing out what he wanted done and how. That will probably make most modern parents heads explode, but things were more laid back then. The Sako liked 45 grains of the old Hodgdon 4831 and an 80 grn Speer FB. Everything was FL. I didn't know you COULD neck size. That gun and its favorite load would cut a small, ragged hole @ 100yds. Years later I bought a neck die, and, using the same brass and load; guess what changed? Nothing. Same group out of the same gun. Well, one thing did change. My brass lasted longer. I had the same experience with a Pre-64 Win 70, which I still have and still shoot. The 70 had a lighter barrel and so the group opened up some, but not much. I still follow the same philosophy in my 75th year after tens of thousands of rounds in too many calibers to mention. Find the load the gun likes and stick with it. I don't neck size for autos since it can lead to feeding issues, but single shots and bolts seem to be fine, at least in the guns I use now, and the accuracy is perfectly fine either way. So again; thanks for not getting on the high horse of 'if you don't do it my way, you're stupid.' That gets old. Best to you!!

More accurate or not, neck sizing not only gives me 1/4" groups, but way more convenient than having to lube up all my bolt action cases to FL resize.

@drewrw21

5 жыл бұрын

Yep

I've been reloading 49 years with 32 different calibers. Some cartridges seem a great deal easier to find the happy spot than others and after loading for my 5 different Creedmoor rifles seems I've happened up on a true load that can actually be used for all 5 rifles with different MOA results for each after 14 different loads, powders, and bullet combos. Never have I had such great results with these loads than any other caliber I've loaded in the 6.5 calibers. Neck sizing only works great for two units as full length works best for the other three. COL range for accuracy being 2.810" and 2.815" and anything above those lengths do not increase accuracy but has caused feed issues out of the magazines with all being bolt action rifles. Reloader 15 and IMR4895 have given best results for me using Nosler 140 grain Ballistic tips and 1:8 twist. Best accuracy achieved with 2670 to 2700 fps chronograph loads. The most accurate powder load for me was IMR4895 @ 35.8 grains. This cartridge load achieved .226" to .585" in my 5 rifles. You might achieve better results than myself as I'm in my mid 60s and not as steady as my younger years. Good luck and hope this helps with your data. I have passed this same data to others at the range with lots of positive results.

@revolutionanarchy713

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing some of your extensive knowledge on reloading. Some people won’t share anything and it goes to the grave with them which I think is a waste. Thanks again!

Perfection is achieved on an individual basis. No two identical rifles preform the same. Simply enjoy the information that was placed before you. Thank you for your time, intelligent testing, and sharing. Happy reloading!

Dude this video is great, really like the analytical way you approach this!

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

+Emile A. Thanks!

I have been reloading my 270 for 20 years. I don’t weigh primers as some do, Just size, trim, weigh charges and seat carefully. In my Remington 700, my neck size groups are 1/4 inch at 100 yards, .643 at 200. Full length sizing 50 % larger. Neck sizing works for me. After 10 reloads, cases still look good, but I do replace them at that point. Good video.

@ErikisOfficial

2 жыл бұрын

I was getting around .50 sometimes .35 grouping at 100. I saw a video by a pro shooter saying to stop doing neck only sizing. I listened to that and I've been wrestling with different loads ever since.

Love this site, he puts a lot of work into this for our benefit and does not tell you what to do, and all I can say is my brass lasts a lot longer when I can get away with neck sizing only, and every gun is different, every loader is different and what works for you should it what you should be doing. There are a lot of attention seeking know it all’s, who like to see their name in print and who think they know best, however there is a lot of real shooters too. And hats off to them.

I only FL size when I have new brass or want to resize once fired brass from elsewhere. Outside of that once brass has been fired I neck size and keep that brass to the specific firearm it was shot from. Rinse and repeat...

Thank you for sharing your data.Great work.Your time is appreciated.Your layout of info works for me.Really thanks.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

+marc james glad you enjoy it. Lots of content on the channel, and more every Saturday.

Glad someone is doing this and posting findings. I’m one who stopped neck sizing and switched to FL sizing. I don’t see any difference in terms of accuracy between the two methods but I like how easy it is to close the bolt when the brass is FL sized. I do both, but for match ammo, I now only FL size just for the extra ease to manipulate the bolt and reliability. I’m not the first one who made the switch so here is that.

My own testing indicated that neck only sizing provides slightly better accuracy. I shot 100 rounds of both neck only sized and full length resized and the neck only sized brass produced .13" better groups on average. It's wasn't a major difference, but it was a difference. I should add that I shot the same load throughout the test (Hornady brass, 40.6 gr Hybrid 100V, 140 gr SST, CCI 200). Fifty pieces of brass were used for each group. Each group of brass had been resized twice when I began, and each was resized one more time to get to 100. I did five shot groups each time over a period of about a month from late June to late July. Seven out of the twenty times the full length resized groups were better. Thirteen times the neck only sized groups were better. The full length never bettered the neck only by more than .2. There were five occasions in which the neck only bettered by full length by more than .2, with the largest gap being .46. The full length resized brass never broke the .4 barrier, whereas the neck sized brass turned in four groups less than .4 and one less than .3 (.276 to be exact). I used a Savage 10 FCP 24" barrel.

Sooner rather than later, neck sizing for me lead to using a shoulder bump die as chambering got a bit tougher. This can lead to bolt locking lug damage.

Another great video, thanks moparmadman. A couple of interesting points this test illustrates. 1) Velocities are consistently higher on the ns and might have something to do with concentricity. 2) velocities in 40.0 (2600) and 43.5 (2837) both appear to be in accuracy nodes, whereas the other velocities might be in scatter nodes, relative to your 24" barrel time. I think Quickload supports that. Good stuff, keep up the great work. Am liking your channel. Thanks again.

Yes! Thank you! I’ve been waiting for someone to do this.

I’m just an Old Phat Phart subscriber that’s been doing this Reloading Schmidt for something like 35 years, but I’m still learning new stuff all the time - Thanks for helping that process along with all your hard work and postings. It’s truly appreciated! I haven’t started reloading for my Savage Stealth 6.5C yet, even tho I’ve got all the stuff to do it with. Been concentrating on my 338LM development first. Though I’d share an idea or two I’ve learned doing that and see how you think it might apply here. I’m using Redding bushing dies (the neck sizing die set that comes with the competition seater and the body sizing die) with Lapua brass. One thing I tried and saw definite results from was setting the neck sizing die per Redding’s suggestion to only resize approximately 3/4ths of the way down the case neck. The idea for this being to let the case better center into the chamber’s neck area, hence reducing possible “run out” induced from the case laying in essence on the bottom of the chamber. Then I use the included body die to set the shoulder back approximately 0.0015”, thus making chambering easy and not overworking the brass. As an aside, if you’re only setting your shoulder back a thousandth or two with a full length sizing die you’re really NOT full length sizing your cases. It can sometimes be tricky to actually see on your brass, but because our cases all have a little body taper to them, you’re really only partially resizing the case body. Both the resized diameter of the case and the length of the resized portion of the case are sized less than a truly full length sized case when the die bottoms out on the shell holder. Just thought I’d point that out to everyone tho I’m sure most were already aware of that. I’m probably preaching to the choir on that one LOL. I’m really interested in your opinion on both this partially neck sizing as well as body length sizing in terms of making more precise and hence consistent ammo. I’m probably over obsessing on the entire process, but it seems to usually work out best for me in the end when I do (or at least I think it does LOL). I also figure the practice would apply across all long range calibers, both the 338LM and the 6.5C and everything in between. So, am I all wet with this?

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

Glad you are enjoying the channel. this is certainly not meant to be a end all to end all test, but it does reflect my results overall. With any bushing neck sizer I really don't think that you can fully size the neck. it might be the difference in 3/4 of the neck or 7/8 of the neck but you are going to have that affect as long as you aren't smashing your die into the shoulder. One thing I feel strongly on is that the more you work on tweaking one or the other you will find ways to improve it or find what works best for you. I find that using a Full length size die and a Sinclair expander mandrel I consistently get the lowest run out of all of the combinations that I have put work into development. I have NEVER been able to match the consistency with a NO die that I get with the FL die and expander mandrel. That is just me though. I desire the lowest run out and the ability to always chamber my rounds. I am not sure that there is really a huge advantage of one process over the other, at least to me, but many loose their mind over this argument. I am not shooting bench rest either. Best of Luck to all with your decision.

Interesting. I don't know why reloaders seem to think that there are only two options, neck size or full length sizing brass. There is a third option of bump sizing. The reason why reloaders like to neck size is the concentricity of the neck tension that you get from a Lee Collett die or mandrel with a bushing die. increasing brass life is not the main advantage of neck sizing. For tactical shooters, reliability is important because in the field, dust, dirt or rain can cause a malfunction with neck sizing only. This is why most tactical shooters prefer to FL size their brass for reliability. Consider this, you can do both, you don’t have to choose between these two techniques for resizing brass as part of your precision reloading process. Neck tension can have a lot to do with the consistency of your ammunition. How much pressure is required to unseat the bullet can drastically affect the consistency of your ammunition and how tight your chronograph numbers will be. I use a Lee Collet neck sizing die for the good concentricity and then bump the shoulder back 2 thousands with a Redding Body die for the added reliability. Using this method, I have single digit SD with lower ES , and the reliability of FL sizing.

@drummachinejoe1451

4 жыл бұрын

Couldn’t a reloader use a FL bushing die? And do it all in one step?

@fluxcapacitor05

3 жыл бұрын

@@drummachinejoe1451 Exactly what I was thinking. That's what the FL bushing dies are for. I'm not sure why people think neck-only sizing is the only way to adjust neck tension since that's what full length dies do in addition to body.

Thank you, I learned something, which is a good thing. This was a Good effort, and the comments were also informative. As an engineer, I read far more into your results than you speculate, and the comments support my extrapolations. It appears that reloading is merely a dramatic but practical application of the laws of physics. In the pursuit of perfection, reloaders must create absolutely the same exact conditions every time they test their creation. This is apparently impossible in the world of mechanical physics. And yet we observe obvious continuous improvement in that direction.

My preference for neck sizing is based primarily on the excellent performance of the Lee collet dies. I have used them for years for .223 through 7mm Rem Mag. They have consistently demonstrated nearly perfect alignment, and much, much less case elongation than any other solution I've tried. Check your loaded cartridges on a run-out gauge, and you will see a noticable improvement in concentricity with the Lee Collet neck sizing option.

@chuckfinley3152

5 жыл бұрын

Greg Page definitely for belted cases do it headspaces on the shoulder

Very informative. Thanks for doing this work.

Good stuff. Respect your work. Thanks for all you do!

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment. I hope you find my content useful.

@johnblythe8229

5 жыл бұрын

Bolt Action Reloading I certainly do. Watch numerous of yours. Great job - I appreciate the in-depth content.

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoy it.

Thank you, you just put my mind at rest I am going to continue neck sizing. I having good luck with my groups so why change.

Good video sir, new subscriber here. Like the way you put the info across. Looks like I'll be watching the pockets on the LP Creedmoor set of brass for size more now. I'll still keep the neck sizing in mind for other calibers I load.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

+cerisecons welcome to the channel!

Great video! Short and sweet to the point

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Great video, I'm looking to get into reloading very soon.

Thanks. Great perspective. Appreciate the good attitude.

Good info , I was told neck size was the best accuracy. Nice to see an actual test.

Interesting stuff man, great Shooting all around, very good video making all the info neat and understandable. I recently picked up a neck sizing die and I will be testing it against full length as well. Should be fun I hope to see no real difference either way and just have it shoot good all the time

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Glad you find it interesting. I get tired of those who think that there is only one way of doing things and that you should never try anything else. Glad that so far it is being received well.

Another great video keep them coming

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jason

Another great video. Interesting that I have got back to FL sizing after 12 months of neck sizing only. I'm finding that I get better overall results by using a 'correcting setup' FL die. Thanks again..👍👍

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

One of the things that Zediker mentions is that often a Neck only die frequently adds to a problem if there is one and that the you need to occasionally use a Full length die anyway so why not just use the FL die. Seems like something a concentricity gauge would tell you assuming that you were checking it of course. Thanks for commenting.

@kljasla1961

6 жыл бұрын

Update: Well I went to the range last week and tried out your topic. FL verse neck sizing in my 223 I shot 3 x 5 shot groups first with my neck sized only loads and then followed up with the FL sized loads. Distance was100m Results: neck sized. 0.71, 0.81, 0.82. Not my best results with this load but it is what it is on the day. FL sized. 0.38, 0.35, 0.47. Same day, same conditions, same number of coffees. I was shocked by this result. My neck die is a Lee Collect and this maybe the problem. I found a fine line between getting good neck tension verse pushing the case should back with this die. I'm now going to purchase a Hornady headspace gauge to fine tune this FL sizing for my chamber. Thanks for the inspiration

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

+KennyA thanks for the update. Glad that someone else is interested to try these things out.

Your test data set is very interesting. I used to neck size and full length size my 300 WinMag. I had many stuck cases and difficult extraction with NS but no issues with FL. I had to reduce the powder charge to prevent stuck cases when I neck sized. I think the 6.5mm CM case has a slight taper, preventing stuck cases.

Daniel San, I ran that same test 10 years ago after reading zedikers book and realized he was right. He was also right when he said using Triple based high energy powders like N540 can creep up on you like an alligator ready to take down his prey upon load development. He was right! One second there was no primer radius loss then WHAM! Blown primers and 3050 FPS on an 80 grain berger VLD from a 20" National Match AR. Zediker kept me entertained on my journey though the HighPower ranks chasing the distinguished rifleman badge. Anyway, it was a great informative test. I had the same results 8-10 years ago when I ran it. The best luck I have had was sizing 1-2 thousands below headspace fit. Using Redding competition shell holders and keeping everything consistent. Keep em coming Mopar Madman and do a 143 ELDX test with RE-16. Don't forget H4831 SC behind a 147 ELDM. It's Da BOMB!

Did the same thing years ago.. with neck sizing I closed up the group by half inch using identical charges

Thank you, you just put my mind at rest. I going to continue neck sizing.

I agree that full length resizing is the way to go, especially for good function. The one thing that i do use however is the Redding Competition shell holder set to set my headspace where I desire, rather than setting the shoulder too far back and overworking the brass.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

I am starting to use my forester press. No Shell holder! :o)

good info and a good start for testing.

Always heard that neck only sizing on ammunition used for a specific bolt/lever action was a time saving action more than anything. Obviously full sizing stresses the brass that can SOMETIMES cause early failure, but I think with 4 to 5 5 gallon buckets of 5.56, .308, 30-06, 9mm, 45lc and 45acp. What I have 4 sons and two adopted daughters?? Yeah I don't worry too much about cartridge failures.

Thank you for an interesting video. I am curious to know if you measured neck or bullet runout between the two re-sizing techniques? A comparative resizing test followed by a same load shooting test of ammo sorted by runout would be fascinating. Keep up the good work and thank you.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment. I have been chasing a "perceived by me" run out issue and am working on it. Most everything comes out

L.E Wilson was a Competition Shooter. Neck Sizing improves accuracy and so does crimping, at times. Bump sizing may be better. There are so many variables. Got to find what works in the rifle, and shooting skills have to remain consistent. With Wilson neck sizing dies and seating dies, I get 3/8" groups @100 yards, with 308 Remington700 SPS. Rifle will probably shoot 1 hole groups. 3/8" group is shooter error. Christ Bless!

what I like about neck sizing is the fact that you do not have to lube the entire case.

Very good comparison. I do know the best reason to neck size as much as possible on belted cases such as the .300 win mag and 7mm rem mag is case life. If full length sized too much the case life is greatly shortened with splitting at the belt at the bottom of the case. Of course that is just for information for those who load belted cases. The weakest point on those cases is at the belt. I have a couple of magnums that never see full length sizing unless they are hard to feed. I have had similar results in reloading cartridges full length sized and neck sized and agree that there is not much to show for accuracy improvements because of neck sizing. I only do neck sizing to increase case life.

Interesting test, fl size seems to work better in your setup. Great vid as always :)

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks, Yes I think I will be sticking to it primarily. You never can tell when I test something like this again though.

Once again great info. Both of my 6.5's shoot better with FL sizing and I agree brass is not overworked that much. Test was worth being done. As always thanks for your efforts.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks and great to see you in the comments as always.

I got similar results from testing n/s vs f/l dies. Some of my n/s loads had smaller groups but not all. Like you, I need more data and will keep testing.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

I was most surprised about the statistics favoring the full length setup. (group size could easily be me on any given day) Zediker alludes to this in the book but its still hard for me to understand that the "chamber sized" rounds would not be core consistent. Thanks for commenting.

It all depends on the RIFLE! I have rifles that like Full size better. I have rifles that like neck sized better. neck sizing is great if your rifle will shoot it! sometimes when a lee collect die is not working well you can get an undersized mandrel for $4 and try it with a tighter grip. and I also have bought dies suck as the Hornady 6.5 NS (neck size) for odd rifles like my 6.5 Arisaka. I have one Arisaka that shoots neck sized best. and one that wont shoot neck sized worth a damn!

I only FL size and agree the primer pockets get loose before any other damage to the brass.

You are very much the diplomat and I appreciate that. IMHO we should work up our best load then try each method to see what works best, end of story.

@BoltActionReloading

3 жыл бұрын

I agree 100% and am about to start on a new project where I try all kinds of ways to size and compare them.

It a good video I think you had good data thanks for doing the video

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you

Thank you I will be hitting that subscription button keep up the good work

@BoltActionReloading

3 жыл бұрын

Awesome thank you!

I am quite new to hand loading which means I do have to keep it open mind yet I'm sure that I'm impressionable also. I go down to my gun range and I talk with folks and make friends and some of these guys have been loading for 60 years most of them either full length size with custom dies. I think I will learn from these match class accuracy types and gravitate to full length sizing.

People go crazy over this. I’ve tried full length, neck, neck and shoulder bump, I’m of the group that thinks neck tension and concentricity has more to do with accuracy than anything. If your a tactical shooter I could highly understand why you would lean to the side of function and reliability.

Nice effort!

Interesting! Ive not fullsized my 6.5 brass ever,but planning on doing soon before annealing.Will be interesting to see the results.I normally see es in single digits or teens.I use lee die,which supposedly (ive not tested) produce the least amount of run-out,maybe this video is worth a re-visit with Lee for neck sizing.

Yes it was worth watching I ve never neck sized only thanks

Full length resizing will work the best. (hornady competition dies w/bushings and hornady brass is what I use) It keeps the center-line perpendicular to the head plane. The shoulder is evenly set to form the gasket. The case run-out will be no more than .001. A 26in. sendero cut, 4 groove McGowen will shoot 130gr. hybirds well inside of a .2 moa at 100 yds. and 2850 fps +/- 1fps(H4350). This represents how critical the reloading procedure is.

This is another interesting video. You would think there would be less internal case volume and more velocity generated by the FL sized cases, but the opposite held true. In terms of velocity, maybe it's more important for the bullet to be centered by virtue of the fire formed cases so that the bullet doesn't lose speed after hitting the throat off center? As for the better SD associated with the FL sized cases, we know ignition becomes more uniform and SDs improve as the case becomes more full.

I use my full length die and bump shoulder back .002 for bolt guns and .004 for gas guns.

I would have like to have seen a standard same brand full length sizing die and standard neck sizing die. As in no bushings, or mandrels. With a moderate load in both for new brass first firing, i can't see the case needing the shoulders bumped. Always appreciate the time you put into making the videos though, so thanks.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Hi Jamie, There really aren't a ton of option available for what you are discussing at lest in 6.5 creedmoor. Maybe RCBS? anyway everyone is entitled to their own opinion but will all the options I have tried out the least run out is the FL die and a mandrel. If you haven't seen it: kzread.info/dash/bejne/a31m0tmLdNuqf7Q.html Thanks for taking the time to comment!

Every cartridge - new or old has its "bugga BOO' . Chamber pressure Riding on the primers flatness, in comparison- in my time was just part of the plan, but loose primers meant to me the test was done. I used Mech Eng - and years ago calculated both head forces. A couple of them - I pushed to destruction. We had a pretty good idea with rear lock bolt rifles. Consider SMLE 303br as one that played nice. The Rear locked Rem 788 - in 308 Win was a destroyer of brass - IF you did not know about the 1.5 thou length stretch AND the 3 thou - diameter increase. Primers would drop out of the ammo. We also found the brass flowed in a circle around the Case head. It was a spot where you measured the case movement - from shot to shot. Once the brass flowed that 3 thou - [ and I crushed the cases] I normally had loose primers. Toss them. Iit also gave false positives in the pressure - all because the mechanics - of fluid flow of metals follows a pattern. Tests - for me as PO Ackley, O'Conner and Wooter's said - pristine once fired 200 cases per test. If a case is tossed - it gets the same load data - as the case it replaces - AND Then I continued shooting. 400 rds, to work up a load was not uncommon. I will never use a 6.5. 7mm Mauser was a great cartridge. Just old grey haired thoughts. Keep your stick on the ice! PS - Yes - I loaded on the shooting line, or a little behind it. I have 4 rifles - Same Caliber - different Manufactures all - and yet I have custom data - resize cases to set them correct and bullet cases with the loaded bullets I use. PPS - Energy at distance - sometimes a bullet needs to perform. Some do not. They had a great C7 - but does it kill game. Finally - I have used CCI Mag primers all along.

In life do what you think works for you. You have to pay your own bills anyway.

Thank you and nice work. I neck size because I'm lazy. Neck only saves me time with lube and then cleaning the lube off the sized brass. I have not noticed an accuracy benefit with neck only vs full size using my 6.5 or Garand.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

We all have our reasons., There is less trimming with Neck sizing, but I find that if you don't trim your ES / SD become worse. Thanks for watching.

I agree that you should do whatever blows your skirt up...whichever you like as this appears to me to be the old Ford vs. Chevy argument that will go on forever with NO clear cut evidence in either direction and NO winner. What I DO KNOW for sure is that there are some VERY high level shooters that full length resize and some that neck size only with maybe a full length resize every fourth to maybe sixth reloading.. MY opinion is that the differences (IF ANY) are NOT due to the kind of resizing, but are due to (1) the shooter and whether he/she is having a good day or not and (2) metallurgical (chemical) makeup of the cases...and you ought to KNOW that if there was any advantage of one method over the other(s), most ALL competition shooters would be doing it the way that was PROVABLY and UNQUESTIONABLY better. So go ahead and argue on..matter of fact, HAVE FUN with it!!. When there appears a CLEAR CONSENSUS, call me and tell me all about the supporting data and the test methodologies, as I'd be quite interested to hear all that..

If you use a bushing die that minimizes how much the necks are worked, you'll loose primer pockets or have case head separation long before you split a neck in most instances.

That's crazy. I know I've been able to get much better results by neck sizing vs full length. However, this may not apply to all rifles and rounds.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

I plan on doing some more work but I was not expecting the results to be earth shattering.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Yeah I am a over tester, I am trying to build my knowledge from the ground up. I frustrate some of my viewers by testing things that people think are "silly" but I challenge the notion that neck sizing is the only way to reload a bolt action. I really think that far to often we paint ourselves into a corner by assuming that one thing applies to all applications. I was actually very surprised by my primer testing. Do you use magnum primers for no magnum loads or do you test by caliber / powder?

@vaughnprecision

6 жыл бұрын

moparmadman typically I use CCI-250 magnum primers, I seem to get good performance out of them across the board. However, I'll be building a 6.5x47 Lapua soon, so small primers will be on my list

@FlyRiverFly

4 жыл бұрын

To me, the most glaring issue was the fliers. He seemed to group 4 shots fairly well but would have a 5th shot over an inch out. These fliers skewed the data. I would like to understand if the fliers were shooter or the round itself. Then I would like to see the data removing the the furthest outlier. 4 rounds should still be sufficient in this scenario to draw the same comparison if we eliminate the shooter issues.

@jcarry5214

3 жыл бұрын

@@FlyRiverFly I didn't catch if he was using the hornady brass straight out of the box but that's how they've shot for me. Maybe he has deburred, neck turned, etc.. Either way I do agree. My rifle with somewhat processed hornady brass and the same bullets tends to do really similarly. Much better overall than this, but similarly. So is it the gun the cartridge or the shooter? It is worth mentioning.

Hey man nice video very interesting and If u don't mind what video editing software u use thanks

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

+SBV Outdoors thank you. Currently I am using hitfilm express as it is free. It's got a little learning curve, but you get used to it. Best of luck.

Just like coating bullets, works for one rifle not the next, you will find out there will be better gains in reducing ES by testing primers and using the best you can, and from experience and hours of testing in a world class ballistics lab and the out come was a big surprise to me, however not to the lab team as the primer that came out on top was the ones they used every day for their testing, The primer with the lowest ES was Remington standard with a ES 3.783 m/s or 12.41 fps almost half the ES of the closes BR Primer which was 6.326 m/s or 20.75 fps and I had just got 2000 BR primers the week before we tested. This will probably change batch by batch just like powders do.

Did you sort the brass by volume, or conduct any other brass segregation/turn necks/case trim? I really dont know if or how these variables would have affected the test, I just really want to know what exactly was done.

So it would seem that according to this author, Neck-Sizing-Only could be relegated to more of an additional element in the overall work up of our reloaded rounds. I mean, after our ladder tests or OCW tests we then do our OAL testing to look for more accuracy. Upon finding our most accurate load using these methods we might then carry it a little farther by testing our most accurate recipe by putting it through a Neck-Sizing test using our most accurate loads to see if it further helps or hinders the outcome. I also have to add that there is an unprovable element to this type of testing that's in the form of subconscious favoritism. If we prefer the way we're doing things now there's a possibility that on a subconscious level we're trying harder to get the outcome of all your testing to come out with your preferred method coming out on top. I know this sounds stupid but we human beings do stuff like this all the time without realizing it. I'm in complete agreement that if you like reloading they way you're doing it now, keep doing it that way. To each his own.

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the comment Tim. I think the authors point is that too often people look to other disciplines of shooting to "borrow" concepts that just may not apply. Again, I feel much of reloading is figure out what works for the individual and refining that. Largely his point is that benchrest only neck size cause they feel they have to. They have tighter chambers than the rest of us so the brass can't expand, they have to neck turn because of this as well (tight chambers), and that the brass takes so long to prepare / sort neck only sizing is the solution to get the most out of the brass, not necessarily because it yields any additional accuracy. (And some do full length resize) While I understand the bias comment and what your trying to get across, I don't see how I could have modified the velocity data. The groups subconscious bias maybe, but the velocity data is what I recorded. Largely the point I am trying to get across is I am not sure that it makes a difference at all, I personally would guess I could rerun this test 5 times and flip the answer 3 times depending on your luck of the day (and maybe even tolerance on the dies you are using, etc) Either way happy reloading and thanks for commenting.

@fentonpainter7907

6 жыл бұрын

TIM MONTANO. To avoid said subconscious bias, you could hand off your rifle to a proficient marksman that you trust. Don’t tell him what he’s getting and just feed him magazines with five rounds in each, on a windless day(few and far between, I know) with a suitable cool down period in between strings. But I like your methodology. Would be worthwhile trying.

Current Fedral rifle brass is soft. Ongoing discussions about it. I put all Federal Rifle brass in the recycle bucket.

Those Sinclair mandrels appeal to me. How often are you annealing BA Reloader?

Perhaps the flash hole in the cases should be the smaller hole like that seen in the smallest of benchrest cartridges. I would like to see a controlled study of the differences in the number of loads typical case will accept before the case splits. Of course case OAL will have to be trimmed after so many loadings.

Here is my one thing, im cool with either, but how do you constantly put the same amount of pressure on the collet die, do i need to rig a torque wrench on the lever? Get a good cam over? Seems like i can get my 308 down to .306, but for some reason my 30-06 sizes to .308 no matter how hard i press on the lever, surely the necks aren’t that hard after two firings. My full length dies go to .305 on both, a little too tight but its what i have right now

Good info. Thanks! I was debating getting a 2 die set with a FL die or the 3 Die set with a FL die and NO die. I'll probably save the money and just go FL.

Hey guys and gals maybe someone can help me out. I'm trying to get Into the shoulder bump method but I can't seem to set up my die correctly. 6.5 CM with Hornady FL dies. The problem I always end up with is once I get my shoulder bumped to the proper size my neck only gets half way sized. If I size the entire neck I bump shoulder way too far. I feel like I'd have to play with the expander ball and decapping pin depth but it doesn't seem to change it at all. Dies are outta the box stock no add on at all. Thanks in advance guys

The only rationale that I ever heard for neck sizing is to extend brass life by reducing the amount of 'working' and stretch that it gets. Really even that is only an issue with rifles that have 'loose' chambers. For rifles with chambers on the tight side (like my RPR), it may be impractical to bump size because the shoulder is already at the short side of SAMMI spec after firing. In that circumstance, even FL sizing does little to the brass. I've check COL of the brass with/without the expander ball in my 6.5 CM; without the expander ball, the brass does not stretch and remains at the length to which it was trimmed before being shot and before the FL resize without the expander. Using the expander spindle is where the 'stretch' occurs, and it varies depending on how well I did on slightly lubing the inside of the neck - it is also evident in the feel/effort on the press. That might change if my RPR had a loose chamber on the large side of the SAAMI spec, rather than on the small side. I just purchased a set of Redding dies with a tc expander ball, so it will be interesting to recheck my earlier test with it. Anyway, never heard of neck sizing as an accuracy tool until recent years; but never could see the logic behind that belief. Good to have some test data.

Well done Video.!

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

I would like to see what results could be achieved if you went down on the powder charge. It seemed to me that going up the ladder gave looser groups. Why not go down the ladder to see where best accuracy lies. I would hazard a guess that somewhere around 37.5 gr you might get maximum accuracy with this loading.

I experinced similar results in my savage. No real improvement, except brass life and faster reloading. I use my results from factory load accuracy- when I first got my rifle, after signing in, and less than 20 shots down the barrel. I shot Winchester 140 match at .414" and Hornady 120 match at .525", both full length sized from the factory.

0.525 group not good for a precision rifle ... maybe work up a new load. I neck turn, neck size, and bump the shoulder if need be, getting 0.173 moa at 100 yds 5 shot group. I like a snug fit in the chamber, it minimizes the proximal gas leak, and brass comes out cleaner. Good shooting.

I once asked Bruce Baer (builder of Bat actions, rifles, and 1000yd benchrest competitor extraordinaire) what he thought about this. He said unequivocally that full length sizing decreases vertical spread at long distances. He believes that consistent cartridge headspace promoted more consistent ignition. For those that don't know Bruce...He competes with 60 pound benchrest rifles. Very precise to say the least! On the flip side I know that quite a few short range benchrest guys neck size. I phoned all over America talking to the top benchrest rifle builders asking the same question, and not one said that definitively that they could see a difference neck sizing, but all said that neck sizing was much more convenient....So that is what they preferred. Some thoughts for your consideration

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

I try to convey that everyone has to decide for themselves. For custom chambers (BR guys) I think that Neck sizing is really their preferred option to preserve brass life. I have received so many comments that I am an idiot for FL sizing with a .002" bump rather than NO sizing so that is one of the reasons why I made this video. I largely thing that it may not matter. I think it is truly person / process / rifle dependent. Thanks for keeping a level head, so many don't.

@jamiecoburn1231

5 жыл бұрын

@@BoltActionReloading I think most of the confusion comes from the fact that the top short range benchrest shooters do it one way and the top long range shooters do it another. Each group vehemently opposing the other leaving us confused neophytes in between. Most people dont understand that the best method for shooting 1's and 2's at 100 yards may be woefully inadequate at 500 or 1000yds. All that said, one way is so slightly different from another that few can tall the difference at range....So...No method is correct here really. I side with the full length sizing crew.....because it best suites what I feel are my long range needs. My moderate pressure brass reloads will go 40-50 rounds or more , but then again I use Fl dies custom cut to my fired brass.... Neil Jones and the exemplary Warner tools dies....Not everybody wants to spend that kind of money, but there are none better IMHO. Max runout I see on the Warner dies in 4 different chambers is 0.001 ...On the bullet! I was thinking these tests might show up better results with your best load and bullet. 4-5 shot groups of the same load for instance...This might point to a better statistical probability? My thinking is that an inaccurate load will be inaccurate load no matter what type of neck turning/case resize/primer seating depth or whatever. Accuracy changes on an inaccurate load are much more difficult to quantify....In my opinion. FWIW I shoot 10 shot groups. This gives me a good "pattern" of the load's accuracy and fliers or shooting errors are easier to pick out. My thoughts of course! :) Anyway...I enjoy your channel! Keep up the good work!

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

Thank you sir. Guys like you are the reason I have my channel. If you ever have any good video ideas I am always interested. Getting better loads is the real reason most any of us do this anyway. Lord knows I dont save any money like so many claim. I like to tease the guys that ask me how much money I save that if they save anything reloading, the must not be doing it right. 😁😁😁

I havent noticed any difference in my Ruger American Predator with 6.5 CM

Question is about neck lengh. Grew up shooting longer neck cartriges. In the market for a 338 Win Mag and will use 250 grns bullets seated out as far as gun/magazine will allow. Is it worth to ream the chamber for a longer neck using 300 Win Mag cases?

Thank you, good video!

Thanks for this nice video... What is your usual case life?

@BoltActionReloading

4 жыл бұрын

Depends on the brand and how hot you load. Lapua goes a lot longer with the small primer pockets, Peterson is probably just as good, and they have both large and small primer pocket brass for 6.5 CM.

Another variable in favor of neck sizing may, may, be lower relative chamber pressures per comparable powder load. If a case is chamber matched -v- resized, could that case not contribute to pressure as it is already expanded? -260AI is my choice.

If it was me, I would be more concerned about the extreme spreads in your velocities more than I would the sizing of the brass. In 6.5, you should be able to get extremes in single digits to teens which will help your group size more. Loose the magnum primers and or switch powders and your groups will reduce. Then worry about the cases.

Don’t you think if neck only sizing yielded the best accuracy, reloading die manufactures would include them in every standard set?

The reason why I've always been neck sizing for the last two decades is because I'm not over working the neck by underdizing it, then expanding it with the expander ball like in a full length resizing die. Plus the neck thickness is rarely perfectly consistent and the expander ball will create an eccentric neck expanding more in the direction where the wall is the thinnest. Besides neck sizing die sets come with a body die as well as a neck die anyway for when the body has grown too big for it's britches. People just simply miss understand what the purpose and use of the neck sizing die sets are for. Like all the miss information you see about moly coated bullets. But of course you only use neck sizing die on brass with a chosen single constant neck wall thickness. Meaning you either buy top quality brass with consistent wall thickness, or turn your necks to make them consistent. If you use brass with inconsistent neck wall thickness in a neck die you're going to get a wide variation in neck tensions on your bullets! If you're going to use mixed range pickup brass or low quality brass, you'll have to use a full length resizing die because you'll need the expander ball to create consistent neck tension on the bullets. Or turn the brass necks so it's neck wall is consistent for a neck sizing die.

@gogogo1064

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks, this is helpful.

@alejopelaezdavis0301

10 ай бұрын

I was looking this answer, I just start loading 223 and I bought the full length and the collect neck sizer . I didn't know how to use the collect neck sizer. Thanks

Have you noticed a difference with your 300 Win belted magnum? I've been neck sizing mine because I've been told that it allows you to headspace off the shoulder rather than the belt. I understand the advantages with FL sizing for regular cartridges...just not sure if it applies to belted magnums...thanks.

I usually get about 3 to 4 neck sizing before I need to full length size and I would rather neck size the case as it places less work hardening on the brass extending it's life.

Good video. Most competition shooters in F-Class and BR don’t neck size their brass. We F/L size with 0.002” shoulder bump.

@rustybutler2804

6 жыл бұрын

Erik, are you bumping .002'' back from SAAMI specs on a case or based on the rifles chamber? For instance I like to take all new virgin brass and "fire form" it once in the rifle it will be used for then make all corrections, assumptions, and measurements off of that assuming that it is formed to that particular chamber once it has been fired in that chamber.

@ricklander5030

6 жыл бұрын

Erik Cortina bumping the shoulder is not full length sizing, only reduces the headspace. If your headspace is ok, just neck size.

@donjohnson8627

6 жыл бұрын

I, personally agree with Eric and am in the process of switching from the long touted and what most of us have been ERRONEOUSLY taught was more accurate neck sizing to do full length resizing, to include a shoulder bump to get the brass .0015 to .002 back from where it is a "tight bolt fit" bunt NOT IMPOSSIBLE to close..I believe that will give me a reasonable chance of NOT having rounds that will not allow bolt closing and having too much headspace. This is important if you shoot in timed matches because one would HATE to DNF a match or even a section of a match because the bolt would operate...maybe due to even a small accumulation of "crud" of any kind. The reality is that, SAAMI spec is NOT what most match shooters use and the cases have to be prepped according to the actual chamber in the rifle in which they are to be used.

@acustom6613

5 жыл бұрын

Not Sammi, but one time shot case, out of your rifle

This test produced some interesting data. If you average the 5 neck sized groups vs. the 5 full length sized groups, you get average groups of .9218” vs .9662” respectively. Average extreme spreads are 10.96 vs. 13.62. Averaging the standard deviations yields a similar result; however, I am not at all confident that an average of standard deviations is meaningful. A 25 shot sample has much stronger statistical significance than a 5 shot sample. Just based on this analysis, neck sizing looks more accurate. Hearing Erik Cortina tell you “just stop it!” is pretty convincing for me initially, but I am not Erik. I do not use Lapau or Alpha brass, so my cases are not as consistent. I want the brass I do use to last as long as possible before throwing it out (or annealing), while Erik couldn’t care less about brass life. If I can get similar results with neck sizing while extending the life of my brass and avoiding case lube 4 out of 5 times, that looks like the way to go for a bolt action rifle. Most of my handloading has been for semiauto, and those always require full length resizing.

One thing I did notice, is that bullet speeds tend to be higher and next size dies. This is due to the fact that energy is not wasted expanding the case size as a deserve a chamber formed. So, this can take one variable out when trying to develop an accurate load. In my opinion full-length sizing should be used only when you have multiple rifles in the same caliber. Unless of course you were going to segregate your brass buy rifle.

@craigbenz4835

5 жыл бұрын

I neck size cases to be used in bolt actions at slow fire range targets. I do this for increased case life. Some of my rifles get better accuracy from full-length resizing. What I am using full-length resizing for is hunting rounds, rapid fire target rounds, and anything for a non-bolt action.

I'm new to reloading for a bolt action .. is it correct that it's better to full length resize until yiu have fired it in the particular bolt gun...then you won't have to full length resize...???

@BoltActionReloading

5 жыл бұрын

For a new gun you should be sure the brass would chamber in the rifle before its loaded. Or just FL size it.

Neck sizing is fine if you're gonna use in same gun all time but if you shoot it in different firearms it doesn't hurt to resize case

Nice job.and I think you covered most of the possibilities. I don’t know if you cleaned primer pockets,debured the flash hole,or reamed the primer pockets inside and out. I also don’t know if you know what your head space measurement is after you bumped the shoulder back. I also don’t know what your bullet run out is. Keeping good records of all information on this particular bullet and load makes life easier the next time you decide to load the same load. Do not pay any attention to the folks that leave you bad notes because they probably don’t know what you do. These forms are for learning and helping other people learn. This is extremely important in keeping our sport safe. We get enough bad mouthing al ready. Hang in there and don’t forget to tell your audiences To Join The NRA, as if it wasn’t for them we wouldn’t be having this conversation. I think your presentations are very good, but you may want to consider slowing down just a little as some of the folks may be beginners. I have been reloading shotguns, rifles and nine revolver and pistol cartridges for about 47 seven years and I learn something every time I reload. Good luck to you my friend.

Not a fan with that powder. I use the H 4350 only and like it. I really like your vids.

@horstb29

4 жыл бұрын

I got my best results with H 4350. Increased velocity and accuracy

My CCI's don't have any issue.

I was curious about the dies that you display in this video. The Hornady MG dies are FL bushing dies, and the Redding type s dies aren't those also FL bushing dies?

@BoltActionReloading

6 жыл бұрын

yle8708 The Redding die here is a neck only die. They do make FL bushing dies, this isn't it.

@yle8708

6 жыл бұрын

Bolt Action Reloading thank you for answering my question. I'm still a relatively new reloader with only about two years under my belt.

Does the brass last longer with neck only and not full length sizing on my 6.5 cm bolt RPR thanks I so enjoyed your video

@BoltActionReloading

4 жыл бұрын

Hi Ruben, I am glad you enjoy the content. SO far in 6.5 Creedmoor the majority of the case failures are due to primer pockets becoming loose. I have not yet had a neck split. This is somewhat cartridge dependent though.

@BoltActionReloading

3 жыл бұрын

Not as much for small rifle primer brass. LR Primer pockets seem to loosen faster depending how high the pressure of the reloads.