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I have 1 tiny addendum to Bob's Fudge Law, and it's that it can also be used when the DM is having a unlucky streak as well. The encounter I wanted to feel dramatic and dangerous is a bit underwhelming when the big scary monster can't roll above a 10 to hit over the 6-10 round combat.

@nerdlord27

2 жыл бұрын

As a DM, I wholeheartedly agree

@Caesarr7

2 жыл бұрын

If DM's should be fudging unlucky and lucky streaks, maybe that points to an underlying problem about the rolling distribution. I wonder how 5e would play if DM's rolled (for example) 2d10 instead?

@milesmatheson1142

2 жыл бұрын

@@Caesarr7 4d6, and drop the lowest. Think about it; lowest possible is 3, highest is 18.

@digitaljanus

2 жыл бұрын

@@Caesarr7 Apparently something like this was under consideration. In the DMG there's an alternate rule where instead of the proficiency bonus being +2, +3, +4, etc., it's +1d4, +1d6, +1d8, etc. I've heard this was originally going to be the actual rule but then they went back to the single d20+numerical bonus model instead. I guess it comes down to, do you want a more reliable bell curve, in which case tests should always use two or more dice, but then the very high and low rolls (i.e. criticals) become a lot rarer? Or do you want the randomness of one die roll, knowing you always have a 5% chance of scoring that nat 20?

@norandomnumbers

2 жыл бұрын

@@Caesarr7 2d10 means the DM is way less likely to roll a natural 20. The d20 system is fine, fudging one or two rolls in a three to four hour session to break an unlucky streak is a much more elegant solution than changing the core mechanic of the game.

There is a mechanic for the players to "fudge" their dice: inspiration. The player did something awesome earlier that is (most likely) completely unrelated to their current action, but they get advantage just because. I take the same approach to DM fudging, I give myself one +2 "DM inspiration" token once a game. Once its used, I have to wait to next session to give myself another fudge.

@ImJoegath

2 жыл бұрын

Oh, that's smart. I hadn't really ever thought of giving myself a budget like that. Hopefully it'll make me feel less bad about fudging (even though I do it fairly regularly and quickly get over it).

@bryansmith844

2 жыл бұрын

It’s so funny that WOTC includes Inspiration like it’s a formalized mechanic, but really it’s like “just give bonuses when you want for whatever you want”.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

What a great point about inspiration! I can't believe I didn't think of that. Also I love your take on "DM inspiration"

@cra2cra226

Жыл бұрын

Then put your DM inspiration chips/tokens right on the table and roll the dice out in the open. Fudge them with your chips til your chips run out. Suddenly your Players will be playing close attention to the dangers when they know there are no more "fudge" tokens around.

I've fudged a handful of rolls. On one memorable occasion there was a Nat 20 that would have one shot the bard in the 1st session; I made it a 19. He still went down, but he was able to be picked up and carry on through the dungeon. We were all just playing for fun and it was an introductory dungeon. No one in the group had played before and I had never DM'd before . After the game I asked the DM of my other game what he would have done in that scenario. He agreed that fudging in that instance was probably the right move and suggested he should lose some body part. The next session I, over time, described the rotting and decaying of his ring and pinky fingers on his left hand. He would have a story to tell and it was a pretty fun moment when everyone realized he was going to have a curious time playing some of his instruments. In this instance fudging actually encouraged role play instead of making a new player roll up a brand new character sheet an hour into their first time playing.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Very nice call! And a cool outcome!

"Randomness is overrated" THANK YOU, so many times I have seen players get so frustrated at their own dice, and i have seen many instances both as a player and a GM where a single dice roll has actively made a game unfun for EVERYONE involved. Yet, since the game rules specify that a dice needs to be rolled in that situation people expect it to happen, nah we are just here to have fun and sometimes the GM has to make a call for the benefit of everyone involved.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Totally, it's about whatever is more fun for your group!

@markfaulkner8191

2 жыл бұрын

So sure, when playing any dice game you should feel free to just change the dice. Know what is more fun for me? A winning roll every time I play craps on the corner. But there, a fudged dice roll might not end up that well.

@DShaw-lr3om

2 жыл бұрын

I have been a DM for nearly 40 yrs, and yes back in the day, it was very much no fudging, it was thrill of youth, then I evoled into a GM, in which the stories became more complex for the players, and I "fudged" rolls. Then finally I evolved into a story teller, and nearly always fudge rolls when it suits the story. If a character holds proverbial gun to a goblins head, and the pull the trigger, no to hit or dmg is rolled, it auto fatality, same goes the other way. The object if any playing session is to create a story, with the highs and lows, don't let randomness kill that moment of high adventure, flow with the story and make it epic

@markfaulkner8191

2 жыл бұрын

@@DShaw-lr3om I have been a DM for 39 years, and I have had the opposite experience. I played the stortelling games like Mage and Ars Magica, and I came back to D&D to get *away* from that and have fun playing a *game*. I stand in opposition to the concept that a DM is a storyteller. It is the *players* that *create* a story. There is no story to tell until after the session is over and you reminisce about what happened. Along with maturity came the confidence to just let the dice roll. What happens happens. Let the dice guide the play. I mean, it is a *game* after all.

@CaitofFate

2 жыл бұрын

@@markfaulkner8191 apples to oranges Mr tryhard.

The ‘F’ word of D&D, you’re the best Bob!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! And well, after "fireball" I guess haha

"CRITS" I only fudge in favor of the players to avoid things like early or random TPKs and other possible game-breaking outcomes. I try to avoid game-breaking decisions coming down to a die roll, but sometimes, when you realize a ruling you made five minutes ago led to this, fudging is easier (and less noticeable) that ret-conning.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly!

@skycrafter2042

2 жыл бұрын

no if you roll a nat 20 i wanna be killed. if i roll a nat 20 my player gose down.

@TheBabylane2

2 жыл бұрын

@@skycrafter2042 Of course it all depends on the players at your table. If you're playing with a bunch of new players it might be better to fudge that nat 20 that would kill off a new players first character in their first 20 minutes of play rather than risk turning them off to the game before even having a chance to really play it.

@skycrafter2042

2 жыл бұрын

@@TheBabylane2 hmm thats fair

@jayspeidell

2 жыл бұрын

There are alternatives to perma-death TPKs at the beginning of a campaign. In the first two "missions" of my current campaign I planned it out with deadly encounters where if the players all died, they would have been stabilized by the enemy and found themselves locked up. I wouldn't improvise it, but I have a plan that makes narrative sense.

3:40 when leveling up, RAW players can either gain a set number of HP or roll for it which on average yields half a hit point less per level. To avoid punishing (or discouraging) the players who want to choose the exciting option of rolling HP, it's the least odd house rule to reroll 1s such that rolling on average is expected to return the exact same value as the boring option of picking a fixed number of hp.

@jayspeidell

2 жыл бұрын

I'm running a shortish campaign and want to escalate the difficulty pretty quickly, so I said they can choose the average or rolled HP after seeing the result of their roll.

Wow! Absolutely loved the editing in this video! all the inclusions of other KZreadr's content really showcased how much of a community we all are, when watching these videos its easy to get lost in "I'm listening to this one person's advice." Love how this was presented, and really makes me think about whether I want to roll openly on the table as DM for my next campaign xD

I gradually learn to avoid rolls that I might "want" to fudge. Or when something is really easy, the roll will not define the success or failure, but some details of the scene I want to leave at random. As for the "1" re-roll at HP, if said in advance, it is not fudging. It is altering the dice and removing a result or a side at first place. 1d8 has only 7 possible results for example. If I decide to roll a die, I stick to the result, especially in battle. I don't want my players to feel that I pull punches. If you fear that an encounter is overwhelming, break it into waves and skip a wave or add a wave. If a custom monster (usually a boss) is overpowered you can "forget" to use a big spell or ability but go for flavor - use something else more cinematic. Go with the rule of cool or let the players fail spectacularly (Mathew Mercer). Last thing. If the party is defeated, they can always get captured (the ones that survived or all). Then the story takes a whole new turn. A big villain (or it seems to be, but he was one of the good guys after all) gives another objective to the players.

Fun full circle: You quoting Adam Savage's "I reject your reality and substitute my own." is super meta, because he's actually quoting the awful original D&D film. Lmaooo

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Lol I just learned that from someone else in these comments! xD

@CoffeeStained

11 ай бұрын

Adam Savage is quoting The Dungeonmaster, a sci-fi/fantasy movie that drew inspiration from D&D games, but wasn’t D&D itself.

I actually have an interesting story related to this: I was DMing an adventure, and two of the PCs found a booby trapped note, reading which caused a nearby Glyph of Warding to Fireball the two of them. The Cleric managed his DEX save, but I realized the Rogue's failed save meant he would take exactly enough damage to hit -10: an instant kill. Instead of fudging the roll, I "fudged" the math by saying he got knocked to -9; still tense and exciting, since the party was in an old, abandoned warehouse and now surrounded by burning furniture, with the town guard surely on their way soon. We ended the session on that cliffhanger. I intended for the Cleric to carry the Rogue, make a narrow escape with the other two in the party, and reach before nursing him to health and completing the job they were there for. However, I had an even better idea: I had some plot hooks which the players opted to ignore, but what if I had the faction leader NPC the players were helping gave them a job that happened to run the party into those hooks, in exchange for resurrecting their friend? So, when we came back together, I did the same thing in reverse: I told the players that I "realized" I'd done the math wrong last session, and that the Rogue was dead, charbroiled by a trap laid by the BBEG's minion. The party *now* had to deal with a party fatality, unsure if or how they'd be able to bring him back, and carry his corpse out. Then, when they reached the leader, they had to agree to do more work (read: be sent on more adventures) in order to pay for their friend's resurrection. tl;dr Not really dice fudging, explicitly, but you don't have to fudge dice in order to make a tense, exciting situation, but you also shouldn't be afraid to.

Crits! Also, I’d say anyone who doesn’t think fudging is a normal part of running a game has probably never run a game before. Dice are bad decision makers, and don’t know the most exciting outcome of a combat round. Also, on most random tables it will specifically tell the DM to roll or choose a result. Rolling, in this instance, is the default option if you don’t care enough to choose, but you can always veto a nonsensical roll.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha well believe it or not, there are many folks out there who do run games but who say they never fudge! Is it true? Who knows :P

@syzygyeolith

2 жыл бұрын

@@BobWorldBuilder To only mildly contradict what I said above, I do think it is true.. but I’d question how much I would enjoy playing in those games. I think it would require a certain type of player to actually want the DM to run things that way. Of course, -all- players want to be told their DMs don’t fudge dice.. but I don’t think people are necessarily aware of what they want. 😅

@joaoburlamaqui

2 жыл бұрын

Fudging dice is something that is part of the GM path. Keep fudging shows that you have not thought enough about the game. When you fudge dice you remove the impact of players choice in the game, you loose the game experience towards storytelling. The RPG turns into RP

CRITS I'm in no way against fudging dice to account for DM error/luck. But it's not for me personally. I have fudged in the past, when me and my players were all new to the game, and I didn't really like doing it, I was just worried my players would lose interest if their characters died. However, the more I DM games the less I feel I need to, I've become much better at balancing encounters, and I know my players will be ok with character deaths. And when it comes to making adjustments to monsters 'on the fly'. This I don't do either, Any adjustments I make to monsters (upgraded armour/ alt. weapons/ items carried) happen when I'm planning sessions. Always good to hear other DMs opinions though, so thanks!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

whatever is more fun for your group!

That's an interesting take. I never even thought about ignoring rolls on random table as fudging. It always seemed natural to reroll a random table result if it makes little sense in current situation.

Thank you for all of your videos. I was a first time DM this year and ran my party through the Dragon of Icespire Peak and your videos heavily enhanced my players experience so much so they want me to DM the next campaign and we are considering doing Icewindale because you have a guide for that adventure aswell. Would love to see you do more adventure guides if you are interested. :) particularly, ToA. Thanks again!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Nice! ToA is the next book I want to run, but it'll probably be a while. Hope you enjoy Icewind Dale!!

Bob, you're the type of person I love playing with. Even if I disagree with you, it's obvious that we could have a logical conversation. You're a feel-good creator to watch. Always a pleasure.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

That's super kind of you!

Going forward when I fudge rolls I'll announce to my players, "I now formally enact Bob's Fudge Law" , so we're all in agreement.

@agustingarcia6448

2 жыл бұрын

Please don't! Letting your players know that you are helping them with the dice is a huge mistake. It kinda takes away the players feeling of achievement. "yeah, we killed a freaking tarrasque but only cause our dm fudges rolls". If they are experienced players who already know that fudging is a thing, let them forget that while they play.

@milesmatheson1142

2 жыл бұрын

@@agustingarcia6448 This. I dont want to see the man behind the curtain. I want the GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha, well it's really important that you ASK them beforehand if they would want to know when you're going to fudge. Most players (myself included) probably wouldn't want to know it's happening

@bryansmith844

2 жыл бұрын

Oh don’t worry guys, it will be said with no context. I just want to establish Bob’s Fudge Law amongst other laws like Newton’s and Einstein’s.

Great video, Bob! And just four hours earlier than my own on fudging hit points! Great minds!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Lol yes I just saw that when I got home from work today and wasn't sure if it was a response at first! xD

Crits! This is such a nuanced topic. Thanks for Al the detail and thoughtfulness you’ve brought to this topic!

Crits!!! As always another great video from the most wholesome person in D&D.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thank you kindly!

I like the ideas that you put out here. I always roll in the open, so it doesn't necessarily apply to me, but there are some related things I've done. I've skipped an entire enemy squads turn once for example. (It was a dream in a session .5 though.) I've fudged guessed numbers for a group of kids I DM'd once. That was was fun. (I told them to guess the number I was thinking lol, didn't have dice with us). Also crits

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha a good DM always finds a way!!

@benjaminholcomb9478

2 жыл бұрын

I only ended up "running" the game because they kept arguing while trying to play pretend. They were all three under 10 and very imaginative lol. There was some narration and cause and effect that I ran for them for a while. When combat started they got excited and had a blast unleashing all their imaginary super powers. A few minutes later of them saying "I do this", and not having any real resistance I saw them start to get tired of it. That's when I knew I had to make them know there was a chance of failure. I ended up having them guessing numbers between 1 and 6 and while I thought 1 or more that they could guess (based on the chances I wanted them to have 1/6, 1/3, 1/2 etc.).

Crits! You're content keeps getting better, this one seemed particularly well produced. Awesome job!

Love the videos Bob! Quickly becoming my fav DnD channel.

CRITS ! I often fudge because as a relatively inexperienced DM it's sometime hard to perfectly balance encounters so I try to make sure to give a challenge but not kill them. Sometime I even tell them after the session things like "well, more creatures should have came out (according to what I rolled) of the ground but that encounter had been going on for too long so they just didn't for the sake of fun". I try to be open to my players to let them know my goal is not to TPK, it's to make a fun a challenging encounter (and I want them to win)

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yep! As long as your players are having fun, it's all good!

You make some solid and fair points here Bob and I resonate with your reality. No need to substitute my own.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Lol thank you

For not the first time, I've clicked on a Bob video ready to be grumpy and his manner quelled my ire. No fudging for me, I retcon or pause and revise to fix my mistakes, but this is a very reasonable line of thinking and conclusion for how (especially new) gms can fudge openly. And I don't mind that.

Good video as always, thanks Bob!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for checking it out! Glad you liked it

I roll in the open, so I never fudge. However, I hardly ever roll dice (even when playing 5e) and often just use common sense. I only roll dice if I am ok with any result that might come up, also in combat. That does mean that I prefer games that are made with that idea in mind (like Electric Bastionland, a game without attack rolls, or the 5e hack I play with my students at the school I work at, where magic always has an effect). That said, I do tend to play games that seem very different from those described here, or those described by Matt Colville. I don't care for drama, as in at all. RPGs make, in my experience, for very bad traditional story telling, so aiming for the kind of drama that you find in movies or other more scripted media doesn't work for me. I instead focus on the emergent plot that arises based on player decisions and random generation by dice, which often doesn't follow a nice predetermined structure, but instead grows in weird unexpected ways. Because of that preference, fudging just isn't fun to me as it seems to me like trying to fit RPGs into a movie mold, but that is just because of my own personal preference. As long as everyone at the table is having fun, there is no incorrect way to play.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting take! Thanks for commenting!

@panicpillow6097

2 жыл бұрын

@@BobWorldBuilder Thanks for continuing to make these interesting video's. I don't think our playstyles align very much, but your enthusiasm and general vibe always make me want to continue to watch your content :)

I think you're making a good point about fudging honestly for the sake of compelling gameplay, but it still requires giving the DM even more authorial control over what's meant to be a collaborative story-telling experience. Maybe the best of both worlds is possible if fudging is mechanized in a transparent way to the players. For example, maybe the DM starts each session with "Inspiration", allowing them to reroll one of their results that would have failed. To recharge their Inspiration, they can reroll a result that would have succeeded.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! There was another great comment about DM inspiration that is similar to fudging but more equitable with the players

@sprocket2cog

2 жыл бұрын

i see it like the director and cast of a play, they all are involved in the collaborative story telling experience just in different roles.

Thanks for talking about this in an objective and truthful way. I think that there's not a universal answer about this topic because every table has it's own preferences. That definition was interesting.

You have such a calming way of talking. Paired with your content makes it 10/10 😍

I think I’d be lynched by my party if I fudged my rolls. Our table does not allow DM screens either so we roll in the open. To be honest I’d love to be able to fudge things on occasion. It would make some things easier and would take away much of the goofiness that random rolls can create.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

That's hard core! Yes, the goofiness can be great, but it can also spoil the tension. It's a fine line!

@doms.6701

2 жыл бұрын

No DM screen allowed, I could never

I think the DM should fudge, but only sparingly (UNLESS you are playing a hardcore OSR-style game and everyone is aware that death lurks behind every kobold with a pointy stick). Fudging should really be called "managing" because context is king. I really only "fudge" to spare a character's death during a random encounter with "throwaway" enemies (against a Boss-monster, though, the kid gloves are off). I might also fudge a roll if I think the party SHOULD find that secret compartment that has a healing potion in it just to help them recover a bit before the next encounter, but if they are doing great and miss it, then them's the breaks. The decision to fudge very much depends on the context of keeping everyone's enjoyment of the game up. A character dying in an epic Boss fight is dramatic and can still be an enjoyable part of the game... a 5th level fighter being killed by a lucky kobold with a stick sucks the air out of a room like nothing else. One of the best ways to avoid having to change die rolls is to not require skill checks for everything. Simple, mundane, or common sense situations should not require a die roll. I've played in games where players had to roll for (almost) EVERYTHING. And it became ridiculous. A well-educated wizard shouldn't have to roll to see if he can tell the difference between a vowel and a consonant. A barbarian shouldn't have to roll to see if he can eat a bowl of soup. If someone wants to pick up a shoe and rolls a 1, do they take damage? Do they drop the shoe? Do they miss the shoe completely? And why? Everything then reaches a point where you don't your character to do ANYTHING, because you might fail and take damage from missing your head while donning a helmet. Sorry for the rant. Also: CRITS!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Excellent points!!

I like the idea of making this a conversation at the table.

Crits! I like your redefinition of fudging. I’ve done similar things when I had to modify CoS for a smaller group and perhaps had not detuned it enough that encounter.

3:55 the reason for the "re-roll ones" house rule is that it corrects the disadvantage you have when rolling vs. taking the average. Since the average value of a normal d6 roll is 3.5 you would gain less hit points in the long run when rolling vs. taking the average since the average is rounded up to 4. Similar for d8 etc. of course. When you take away the 1, you can only roll 2-6 and the actual average roll is now really 4 instead of 3.5 so you gain the same number of hit points on average.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

I really appreciate that breakdown!

You make a fair point. But I think the DM shouldn't roll if they want something to happen. Otherwise, just respect the dice and let them take you where they may. I fudge less and less, and my games have improved quite a bit.

@dabeerdsgamer7763

2 жыл бұрын

For years when I DM, I have always rolled in the open, therefore it is exceptionally difficult to fudge. That said, I have "conveniently forgotten" damage dice or to add a bonus (to hit or damage) now and then or did not do math correctly. Like Bob said, I am adjusting on the fly to accommodate for the fact that *I* screwed up and made the encounter too difficult. The last thing I want is a TPK because *I* overestimated the power of the party.

@Groovebot3k

2 жыл бұрын

I would argue that a DM not rolling when they want something to happen can have terrible ramifications, potentially making players feel as if they have no way to change the outcome of the game beyond perhaps their own survival.

@metashadow3924

2 жыл бұрын

@@Groovebot3k What Groovebot 3000 said is exactly why the DM should roll even if they don't like the outcome and fudge the dice. The players believing their lives are at the whim of the dice adds tension that is necessary for a lot of fun moments in the game. Of course, the DM should abide by their dice rolls, save for those rare occasions as stated in this video.

@inakiiribarrenlineros8594

2 жыл бұрын

@@Groovebot3k Of course, it should be used within reason, it is a game, not the DM's story, after all. Lying to your players behind a die roll can be just as bad, though.

@inakiiribarrenlineros8594

2 жыл бұрын

To me, the die should guide the game and the DM shouldn't have a plot planned out, just an outline of the adventure. Honesty makes the game fair, with the exception of an accidental and not telegraphed danger, such as extremely deadly stats on a creature that players would have no way of expecting.

CRITS love this well-thought-out video on an important function of the DM behind the screen--curating fun, not laying down on the train tracks of chance.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha I have to use "laying down on the train tracks of chance" more often when talking about dice xD

the DMs i learned from usually waited until the end of the session to tell us about the dice rolls they fudged, and I think that's a better compromise. let the story play out, let the players enjoy the fun and drama, then at the end when you're awarding XP and such just say "well gang, great job! bob, you actually would have failed that opposed dice roll but I thought the tension was so high and the payoff would be so good i let you succeed, i basically only made you roll to heighten the moment and decide just how narrowly you'd succeed" i like gm honest dm and i tend to play with lots of rules lawyers but this approach seems to make everyone happy. do it in service of having a fun game, do it sparingly, and tell me afterwards when it happens

First time someone told me that I should fudge, it also said that I should NEVER tell my players when I fudge, what do you guys think about this advice? Should I follow it?

@xogdo5260

2 жыл бұрын

Sometime I tell my players I fudged a dice roll after the session (only if the roll was in their favor), like "well, according to what I rolled, 3 more creatures should have came out of the ground but this combat had been going on for some time so they didn't". Your players should know that you're not there to kill them, you're there to challenge them and have fun

@nicholascarter9158

2 жыл бұрын

It is my personal opinion that inter-personal advice of *any* kind that comes with the caveat "It'll be fine as long as they never find out." is bad advice.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

I think you should ask your players if they would like to know whether or not you're going to fudge! It's their opinion that affects the fun of your game!

@ImJoegath

2 жыл бұрын

I'm pretty sure Matt Colville has a video (or at least a segment) about this exact thing in his "running the game" series. IIRC, he says to avoid it, but im sure there's exceptions. I tend to agree that players should generally not know when you've made something easier- it cheapens a victory. But if you made something harder maybe its ok to let them know they took down a super-monster.

@andrewtomlinson5237

2 жыл бұрын

Sweet baby Jesus... NEVER tell them you did it to THEM. I've been at it for over 40 years, and none of my players think I've ever fudged in the games they were in, but know I have fudged in "other games". The skill is doing it without them realising, and not just when it's most important. Try it out when it doesn't matter, so you learn the skill of blagging the fudge. That way when the last player standing is facing down the End level Boss who swings his Mega Axe of Doom, and you roll a Nat 20, you have practise enough that you can convince them all that the villain missed. Here's a trick... have a d20 already set up behind the screen with a 1 showing face up, so you can show them the "Fumble"...

first, but I feel like I should fudge it and say 20th

Interesting take, Bob! I personally as a player do not like any fudging (including changing monster HP during the session - during prep is fine, but not during the session). DMs feel the need to make the game fun or dramatic. But being handed a win when I didn't actually win is the opposite of fun or dramatic for me. In a 5e game I rolled a 1 for HP and the DM was ready to retroactively implement a house rule to "help" me. I told him if this roll doesn't stand, then it takes away the magic from the times when I've rolled max HP on other characters. Of course I said he could implement a house rule, but that he shouldn't do it as a favor to me because I'd rather not have this "help". Without the tension of possibly losing, success is really cheapened - I just need to "sit at the table long enough to win" in those games. 5e already does a lot to "help" the players and IMO takes out a lot of the tension that makes D&D so awesome. Just my 2 cents there :)

CRITS thanks Bob! I do fudge occasionally when DMing for my 4 sons, always for story or continuity

I agree with you that fudging has a negative connotation, and people when hearing it gets the idea that it is the same as cheating. However I do not agree that you should tell your players when you are fudging the dice. I myself am a pretty unlucky guy when it comes to rolling the dice which has previous lead to pretty boring combat encounters were the barbarian only took 1 hp of damage against boss. This was pretty anticlimactic, and I could feel how my players became bored with the encounter because he continuously missed or did no damage to the enraged barbarian. This works both ways, making sure the wizard doesn't get instantly killed and that the barbarian take some damage doing combat. But I only use fudging when it comes to damage die and hit die. You can call it a semi-scripted encounter. Good video, hope it helps newer DM's use a bit of fudging and have better games.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I didn't mean to say that people should say when they're going to fudge. I meant that you should discuss during session zero whether or not the players would like that policy. As a player, I definitely would not!

@paladinpariah325

2 жыл бұрын

Totally agree that telling players you're altering die rolls is not a good idea. It dispels the illusion of randomness which is far more important than actual randomness.

@SortKaffe

2 жыл бұрын

Only discuss it during session zero if you can't hold a poker face when you need to fudge a crit or they have seen this video and demand to know whether you fudge or not. If so, better just give your party a Guardian Emblem and let them be responsible for fudging crits by the rules. IMO it can only make the game less fun that you ask the players to decide for or against the use of fudging. It would either lead to them rejecting fudging (risking unheroic or excessive character death due to bad luck) or them becoming disengaged due to knowing that they have plot armor which ruins the suspense.

Sometimes rules are there to be broken in the right way. A good DM probably knows better than the dice what outcome is best for the players and story, so why not let the dice only be decision helpers. If you found out what decision would be best after roll, then be it. PS: CRITS You can never have enough dice, i'd appreciate it :3

Damn that clip of Jacob's house rules was from a rant recent video. Good job on staying up to date.

Crit! Good video, Bob. I really enjoy your style. You are a great teacher. I imagine that your students would agree.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much! As an outdoor educator who basically gets to give students a break from regular classroom learning, they often agree :P

"Outcomes that are fun and dramatic for the players." This is key - if the monsters (that is, me the DM) are rolling horribly, there isn't much drama and a fudged roll might be necessary to showcase that this monster is actually a threat. The flip side is important too - if I am rolling really well, a fudged damage roll to lessen the threat and let the party regroup might be necessary. On top of all that, it is important to remember that the DM is a player too. If none of the challenges I put in front of my players creates any drama, then that lessens the fun for me (and likely my players too).

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yep! Everyone should be having fun!

I disagree. As you mentioned, fact is if you want a specific outcome you shouldn't call for a roll. The only exception here is when the rules demand the roll not you, as is the case with death saving throws. In this case you could argue to have the roll and correct it, or just overrule as dm and say you succeed the last roll. Alternative methods like capturing the players, bringing in a friend to resurrect them or something similar also work. In general though I don't agree with bothering to roll if you can't accept every possible result. Honestly it's sad, cause rolling dice is fun, but I think mechanically it is correct to just not roll if there is only one acceptable outcome. For me it's part of why combat seems the most interesting, because tbh rp and exploration feels like a narrative you and your players choose together, not something that should be random. Randomness is good for the ebb and flow of the game, but as a narrative tool it is detrimental. Alternatively if you insist on dice rolls, make your players aware the roll is regarding how well they succeed or how badly they fail. That way you keep the high highs or low lows, within acceptable margins.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Great points!

CRITS Awesome Video, I’m a newer DM and I haven’t had many occasions where I had to fudge but one I had consistent bad luck and fudged to get a few hits on the players to at least get some sort of tension.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Do what makes it fun!

Crits! Another great video with an excellent perspective and point Bob!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much, Brendan!

It really depends on what the groups wants and expects from their D&D game. I can see wargamers hating fudging for lessening their actual "earned" victories, while more narrative focused groups need it to have more control over the tension and drama in the game. Myself leaning more towards the latter than the former, I definitely support fudging, though just like with cheating, if the players can influence the GM into fudging, the stakes immediately fall flat. Since the GM cannot help being influenced by the players into fudging, because their reactions to the game is the point in narrative games, it's vitally important to me that a GM who fudges keeps it a secret when they do it. That way I don't have enough information to act in such a way that would influence the outcome. If I do have that information I'd insist to the GM to ignore _my_ reactions when deciding to fudge dice. Otherwise the stakes go poof for me. It's a delicate balance.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah while I mentioned the option of transparent fudging, I as a player would always choose for the DM to NOT reveal when they want to fudge

Rerolling 1's on hit dice when levelling up makes total sense to me because it makes the average roll equal to the fixed HP you would take otherwise. For example, average roll of a d8 is 4.5, but average when ignoring 1's is 5, which is equal to the fixed amount you get if you decide not to roll.

I like your take on this touchy subject.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks very much!

Yours is the only video on the topic I've seen that mentions getting consent from your players. Good job, at least someone gets it!^^

Good video I roll in the open but I will change things on the fly to keep it fun and fair.

Bingo! That's exactly what I wanted to say during all of the videos you posted clips from. I fudge to correct my own errors. If I drastically underestimated the deadliness of an encounter, the game should be insulated from my poor judgement. To my mind there's no difference between "correcting" a monster's hit points, or statblock, and turning an ill-timed crit into a hit. I will occasionally fudge in the opposite direction, but unless the conflict is in danger of becoming tedious and boring, I will let the players have their cakewalk and feel awesome. As you noted, the key point is to use this very sparingly and judiciously. Good video.

@keithcurtis

2 жыл бұрын

Liked and subscribed.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for subscribing! I think Jim Davis did get to that by the end of his video on WebDM, but it definitely came after a lot of talk about fudging being bad haha

Sometimes it can be a lot of fun to fudge rolls. My players were fighting a horde of hobgoblins, one of then made a thick fog, and I rolled two out of three nat 1s in a row. I treated it as three and the hobgoblins ripped each other to shreds because of the chaos of battle and the thick fog the players placed down. To this day, the players still reminisce about that session and battle (ongoing campaign). Yeah, I fudged a dice roll but it made the story more interesting, the game more fun, and it made the players feel clever. They are a bunch of first timers so giving them a great foundational experience, something they want to play more in the future, is my goal and i hope they share it with their friends in the years to come.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Very nice call! :)

Great video Bob! I personally agree 100% with your views on player fudging rolls. As for the GM/DM, not so much, but that's just a personal thing for me. But I do like how you describe fudging as something that should be rare. Amazing video and I look forward to next week's one!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Glad we can respectfully disagree haha

That last advice is so important. I can't tell you how freeing it is to just go "hey people, I rolled this way, but I think it would not be interesting to have it happen. So I'm gonna ignore it.". It allows me to roll openly on the table for everyone to see, because if I really need to fudge, I can just talk about it with everyone.

Crits! I appreciate your new definition of "fudging"... I will occasionally fudge one of my creatures into missing an attack on a player, usually early in the combat to give players a chance to balance things out if they miss their first few attacks.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

That's a solid time to fudge!

'crits'! I dig the idea of discussing fudging during session zero. Something I'll have to do at the start of my next campaign.

Love the take on it!

Thank you for not hating on fudging. I like the idea that fudging is meant to make the game more fun for your players. Excellent video!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Totally! Everything should be meant to make the game more fun

Crits! I tend to fall in the camp of not fudging dice and letting them fall where they may, but my friend who does fudge occasionally likes to use them as a narrative suggestion when he rolls. I think that's a cool way to look at it

Interesting vids as always, bob. I am gonna use these tips if I ever decide to DM

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Wonderful!

CRITS! Honestly your videos are very helpful for a new DM. They're very informative for relatively short videos.

I have also fudged during streaks of bad luck (as well as good luck or to correct an oversight) for the narrative drama. The stand out example being the fight with a mini boss that the party had fought before and in what was planed to be their last fight was rolling bad enough that it would not have been a fight, so i fudged to give my players the fight that was expected and have them work for the victory.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Nice! Whatever is more fun for your group :)

This is surprisingly agreeable.

hey im new here and just wanted to say love your content dude and you earned a new subscriber :). Keep up the good work!

I like your refined definition very much. CRITS

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

Who doesn't love giveaways!? I find it hard when fudging rolls - I've also made the mistake of telling my players that I did at one point. It seems they want the chaos of the dice and I don't plan on doing it very often anymore unless (like you suggested) that it's because of an oversight on my part. I had a 2/3 PK because of this once, and I won't do THAT again :D

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I don't think most players would want to know so it's best to figure that out in session zero!

"CRITS" found your channel a couple of days ago and I'm really enjoying the content!

CRITS ! 100% agree. Fudging is sometimes needed.

CRIT! While I don’t fudge all that often, I find that I also don’t do as much rolling as the DM anymore. I have my save DC effects that I use and I roll to hit PCs in combat, but oftentimes I have a “football” of something the group needs and my enemies are simply trying to get and keep that thing. If I need my enemies to contest the PCs directly, I usually have already discounted them from the job of doing whatever goes after the football behind the scenes. I’ll oftentimes even have my big bad dismiss the players by sending enemies after them, no goal except to slow down the party.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Whatever is more fun for your group!

I understood the need to fudge dice as a dm in my second session a ever dmed. It was 2015, lost mines of phandavler, the party stumbles on the hobgoblin in the first ever cave they explore… and a roll 3 nat 20 in a row

Crits! Great video Bob! I appreciate the clarification and totally agree :)

I thought this was about the F.U.D.G.E system and I got REALLY excited for a minute.

CRITs. I use fudging occasionally simply because my luck is absolutely awful(for multiple sessions in a row i haven't rolled above a 10 no matter what dice set i use but in that case i just adjust the modifier enough to makeit hit in the moment for drama and the like) and for the hp rant we do it simply because we tend to run more grimdark games where dying can happen quite a bit and sometimes that one extra point is saving you(for damage rolled in the open). Great video.

"Crits" Good video I like the emphasis on using fudging to _correct_ something in game

Great video. I totally agree! Sometimes dice rolls can ruin otherwise great narrative moments. Also, CRITS

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! Yeah, the dice do not know how your game is going!

CRITS! Bob, you’re doing great work here!

Totally agree with the ideas you presented here. Also, I like how you quoted some other dnd youtuber's on the subject. Having those clips and quotes made your argument seem a lot more sound. Also, CRITS!

Very nice, and very much in line with my own thinking. I loved your references to other KZread channels. One of my absolute favorites on this subject was Seth Skorkowsky's. He does a really good dramatization of the benefit of fudging dice. (For those viewers who haven't seen this, go look it up. It's well worth it.)

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Yes! I freaking love that clip haha

I like that you pointed out that dm's most likely fudge plenty of time when it comes to random encounter, loot etc. I have no problems with fudging personally. I also do the re-roll hit points thing, that is the way I was taught, heck most of my Ad&d/2e and 3e the rule was if you had d8 hd or more re-roll 1 and 2 over, and in some campaigns we combined re-rolling 1 and 2, and doing it as what is now called advantage... you roll two dice and take the best result of the two after re-rolling. Considering that the older rules didn't really give the players much as they level up, it sucks to level and basically all you got was an extra hit point. (old D&D had some barren level advantages)

Crit! I like that redefinition, it doesn't make it look as taboo. I had that "TPK because of DM's mistake" moment happen to me rolling visible dice on a VTT, and having it covered being able to fudge would have been a useful tool.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Ooof that's rough! Maybe start rolling with actual dice even if you're using a VTT!

CRITS No need to lie, these dice are fudging beautiful. Thanks for introducing me to another dice company to feed my addiction Bob!

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha I support this

In my first time beign a DM i rolled two crits in a row against the party's cleric, from a redbrand bandit in Mines of Phandelver.

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

oh no!

Bob World Builder resembles Bob Ross at the smooth way of speaking

Crits! I fully agree with this definition of fudging

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

I appreciate that!

CRITS!!! I agree completely *fudge responsibly!*

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

Haha you got it!

CRITS SUCH a nuanced area!

Great. Now I want fudge.

CRITS! Bob is on fire with these videos lately

@BobWorldBuilder

2 жыл бұрын

I really appreciate that!

CRITS! Thanks for all of the great videos from a new DM!

two quotes come to mind, one I'm told is by Gary Gygax "DMs only roll dice because they like the sound it makes" and from a source that I can't remember "If you're not willing to accept any result don't ask for a roll" both of which are paraphrased. As a DM I'm more likely to simply announce success or failure without rolling instead of faking the result, but I do fudge damage sometimes, like last session when I reduced the damage done to the barbarian by 2 so he finished the fight at 1 instead of -1 for the second combat out of two for the campaign

CRITS, love all your videos they're all awesome keep up the work please :)

While I do see the case against allowing players to re-roll 1s, I would argue that it is *not* in fact players fudging their rolls: it is a clear rule with explicit conditions that re-balances the roll to a modified set of possible random outcomes. It effectively simply turns the d6 into a d5 that has the numbers 2-6 on it.

CRITS! I'm in the "Minimize fudging but make it believeable when you do" camp honestly