0:00 intro (justifications, prevelance of common recommendations, rehash, etc) 1:41 systems of lots of small trees that don't last long 2:20 3 common problems 2:56 narrow crotches 3:30 lot of branches in same spot 4:00 large cuts leads to rot 4:30 sapling into open center tree 5:50 **delayed open center** 7:57 central leader 9:20 modified central leader 10:15 apical dominance 12:05 usefulness of shade in the center 13:30 pruning center every year/balance 14:00 varieties and the two forms. 14:25 scaffold 15:30 structural wood and fruiting wood 17:00 if everything goes well, we don't have to make big cuts 18:49 weights on limbs, walking through details of the tree 21:10 what i look for in scaffolds 22:20 establish co-dominance early 22:45 other vids coming in the series, other methods, etc

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

Thank you, I will pin this comment to the top of the page!

Absolutely love the "Chalkboard in the Orchard" setting. Good stuff as always

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

That's real slate too. My brother remodeled some schools and scored a bunch of old slate chalk boards. I don't have any of the full sized ones, but I've been looking for an old pool table to get the slate for a big outdoor chalkboard. That would be so cool :)

Best explaination of Modified Central Leader that I have ever heard. The reason why you just wouldn't cut out the leader has finally been explained. Thank you.

Well I’ve been working with trees for almost 30 years, as a professional arborist. totally agree with everything about fruit trees. Great information.

You definitely have a lot of knowledge and also some deep insight in to these fruit trees. I've been wanting to speak with someone like you for years. So glad to have found you. Watching and listening intently from Northern Wisconsin. Thank you.

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

I want this to be one of my major projects. just need land and money...

I feel like I found the holy grail of fruit tree pruning guides! This is exactly what I have been seeking out! Thank you so much!!

@SkillCult

2 жыл бұрын

I hope to keep developing this information and training techniques to get them out into common use. Time to move on from recommendations dating back to the 1700's lol.

Hope you're reading comments on older videos... this video was a primary source for decisions about training our one remaining apple tree. Bought several whips the spring before last but couldn't put them in the ground because of a boundary dispute (which we are and have been totally correct about... surveyor's marks are clearly visible) with a neighbor (which is still not resolved!) prevented planting all of the whips... but with mistakes that I made on our one remaining tree, I see it may have been a blessing allowing me to learn a little before planting and ruining a bunch of trees. My question - It took me 3 years of growing our food to realize (this would have been immediately obvious to most rational people... but) that of all the challenges we face here in this environment, wind is our primary challenge. We're a mile high in the high desert, but have a 12,000 peak close to literally in our back yard, the face of the mountain is almost vertical. We even have a glacier on the north by northwest face of the mountain. So, those cool peaks with intensely hot low lands (at 5k feet), and a local geoformation - a low saddle in a ridge that is perpendicular to the tall mountain which acts as a venturi funnel and absolutely blasts our property. I've lost 20 foot long indeterminate tomato vines, whole trellises of peas... and so much more. This late spring, one of 4 that we had this year, whole area lost its apricot crop, we had plants bud 4 times, in succession, as each false spring came and went - really high temps, like into the 80's followed by a week or more of snow then back into the 80's... the cycle repeated 4 times! But in the actual late spring, we were training our one remaining whip into an open center form as a shade tree for our herb garden (the sun and air/soil temperature I thought was our biggest challenge... it rmains a huge challenge as everything bolts as soon as summer starts its so catastrophically hot, but I *forgot* to space the scaffolds by a foot or so up the trunk, we did like 3 or 4 inches, so did exactly what you said not to do in this vid... I wish I had a system of information recall! We were training by tying the scaffolds down to the ground about 4-6 inches from the trunk, as they all wanted to grow very vertical, and we didn't have enough small weights (somehow lost all my old scuba/free diving weights, and the rest are used in the leather shop). SO, we tied down. This worked fantastically, this is my first planted fruit tree, but we got excellent angles on the scaffolds, great weight distribution around the trunk... all good until a windstorm hit and snapped a scaffold clean off at the trunk. This has left a big open wound which I don't know what to do with? I've left it open and exposed to some pretty intense direct sun. The trunk is at about half width there, the scaffold took such a big chunk out of the trunk. I guess a sub question is what should I do about this wound? The tree is actually appearing to do fine, scaffolds are so leafy like a Crumb drawing of a hairy woman's legs, I believe the tree is a mid summer fruiter, but we got no blossoms, but otherwise, the tree seems to be doing well, growing well, even in the densest clay riverstone aggregate (basically concrete) soil I've ever seen - shovel is useless, jackhammer is the most appropriate digging tool (now I know our challenges are 1. Wind 2. Sun/heat 3. Soil 4. Limited Space)? But the larger question is regarding training forms, what form do you think would be the best for really high wind speeds? We can have a wind storm that goes for hours with constant 40mph winds , I've seen our vinyl fence sway 3 feet back and forth, looking like it might just rip out of its concrete feet, our vinyl fence door slammed shut and shattered into a million pieces (that was on a calm day, no wind at all, just a sudden gale out of nowhere, I was about 10 feet away when it happened... scared the crap out of me... the environment is crazy here, it is extreme, and extremely variable - they say you can have all four seasons in the same day here, and I've now learned this is for real, not just a saying). BUT, amidst sustained 40mph winds, we can have gusts that get to hurricane speeds, like 80mph. I routinely find roof shingles on our property, it's not from our roof... So, what form of trained apple tree would be best suited to withstand 40mph sustained winds, with gusts in the 60-80mph range? No form? 😂It's gonna be some form, people do maintain fruit trees here, a lot of apricots, peaches, and some apple... I just don't enjoy stone fruits... We're looking to grow maybe not full size, I don't fancy an 18foot ladder to pick these trees, but a step down in size. And I'd like to get the form sorted before I plant this row on the west by southwest edge of our property, which I hope will also act as shade for our chicken coup and run and that side of our house in general. Advice? 🌳🌳🌳🌳🌳

this really demystified pruning for me and training. Now I feel so much more prepared to intelligently shape my trees!

@SkillCult

2 жыл бұрын

Awesome, That's the idea!

I love the delayed open center idea. It makes me want to grow the branches in a spiral lol

Best pruning video I’ve seen after a lot of searching. Thank you for bringing in the research and expected outcomes!

I m from himachal pradesh , india. now I want to take care of my apple orchards which my father does.i have no knowledge but the way you lectured was one of the best and will really help people like me. hope to get more knowledge from you.thankyou.

@SkillCult

2 жыл бұрын

thanks friend, glad to help.

Thank you VERY VERY much. You clarified a lot of unknowns for me. I will go with the delayed open center for my stone fruit trees that I have on order and will go with the modified central leader for my apple and peach trees. I really appreciate your info.

Thank you so much for this. As a visual learner I was having a hard time understanding what I was reading or even being shown....but your chalk boarding teaching method really clarified things for me. Also the diagram of the tree from above truly was the 'ah-haa!!' moment for me.

Nice b-roll moon shot at the end there. Very soothing.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. This is the best horticultural fruit tree pruning tutorial I have watched. You are an amazing teacher. Fantastic video.

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks :)

This is the best video I have seen on pruning and I have been watching a lot to understand how to take care of fruit trees. Thank you so much for doing this!!!

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

Thank you. There really are not very good videos or other content on training fruit trees that I've been able to find. I hope to do more experiment and content on it in the future.

Outstanding video! Great explanations and illustrations. Love that you used historical research and current observations. Thank you!

Great video. Finally someone who can synthesize all the information out there and present it in a way I can understand.

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

Right? I could have used this 15 years ago lol.

Absolutely fantastic series! It’s a very clear explanation of something that is quite hard to grasp in the beginning.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

It's very simple, but there are a few important fundamental points that are not always easy to derive from the information that is out there. Or it just takes time and experience for them to jell.

Thank you! I bought an apple tree a couple of years back and I have been stumped on how to prune it. I watched several different how to videos but I was left feeling more ignorant than before I started watching. 😑😕 I like the way you explained things plus showed us on the chalkboard. Many blessings to you!

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I know, most of them aren't very good. Thinking training as a way to guide a limited quantity of resources where you want them is really helpful. Then if you know what the form is, you just need a few simple techniques to do that and you're off.

@alphanumeric1529

Жыл бұрын

She said "stumped"! Lol, apple tree nerd humor! Apologies!

Finally something that makes sense

Good, informative, well produced. It's good to hear it from someone else to verify what one thinks one knows already! This year and last year I have planted 60 fruit trees in my new orchard. I look forward to learning (from mistakes) and experimenting with their structures as they grow.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Well, it's good to hear that we basically agree on that stuff. Hopefully I'll do another few videos this year and talk about some of the ideas I think would make good experiments. For instance, I've done some notching to encourage side breaks in current year shoots, but I'd need to do it a lot more to figure out how often it works and in what species. I also have very limited experience with some species using disbudding, though more with notching. One of the ones I've had most trouble with is Golden Russet. it grows sort of like a cherry tree and wants to be a lanky central leader with bare stem sections. Total pain in the butt.

@ProfKSE

6 жыл бұрын

I am familiar with Golden Russet; a tip bearer early but eventually produces spurs. It is such a vigorous grower it is hard to prune back to a modified central leader. I'm going to try summer pruning to see if I can minimize the re-growth of the water sprouts.

I wish I had seen this video years ago. One, because it's very informative in a way that my mind can accept the concepts (thank you!) and two, because I don't see footage correctly used for end screen boxes enough. Dank moonlapse.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

That was a cool piece of B-roll for sure. I never seem to run out of opportunities to shoot more.

Thank you! This is what I have been looking for but not finding. P.S. - thanks for your guidance on grafting in other videos, I did my first grafting this spring and all four varieties took thanks to your guidance.

@SkillCult

2 жыл бұрын

Pretty much what I needed to know when I started, but no one then or since has delivered it. except me :)

Best fruit tree training video I have seen ( and I have watched many). Wish I had learned these concepts a couple years ago when my trees were first whips. Thank you for explaining the concepts so thoroughly.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

You can do a lot remedially. Just remember, you don't need perfect forms, so don't butcher the tree chasing after some ideal. Some closely spaced branches not quite pointing in the same direction are fine.

Thanks especially to plan wider distance separation of main branches.! I have been looking ar old apple tree branching... and yes the ones that haven't broken down are often quite widely spaced with their main limbs! Also I see too much sunburn or scorching of the topmost limbs when all srouts are cleaned off repeatedly.😢😮 So that middle leader is a bright idea.!❤

Really well put! Thank you for boiling this down. Great job!

Very Informative video! Thanks for taking the time to explain all these topics . This helped so much !

Thank you for clearing up so many misconceptions for me! Great instructions.

YES. Thank you so much, this is what I need to get started. I'm going to wait until I get home to finish watching but I was hoping you'd do something like this.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Between this and the last two vids, you should do pretty well. In the following years, you can use notching to force secondary scaffolds where you want them as well to avoid long bare stems that some trees are prone to.

Excellent, looking forward to more in this series. Received my pollen today, totally excited for the possibilities.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Yay!

I think this is my favorite video you've done so far. Really clears up my confusion over what is the difference between delayed open center and modified central leader. Thanks Stephen.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Glad you like it.

Many thanks for your easy to understand explanations of the structuring! I really do appreciate them.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

You're welcome :)

this presentation is beautiful. thank you

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this video!!

Explained nicely. Well done. Thanks.

Really good stuff, been looking for a really concise video on this subject for a while now.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Glad it helped.

Fantastic explanation. Thank you.

Great video! I liked the cool time lapse moon at the end

Thank you bro, this is exactly the video I have been searching for a while.

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

You're welcome :)

Another great one! 👍

Thank you soooooo much for this video!! Just getting started on my fruit trees, the info out there is confusing. I really appreciate the specifics and drawings and examples!

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

glad I could help!

Very nice and very helpful information

Thanks for the video!! Made sense and will definitely help ❤

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

:)

Thanks for this series, it's very informative. I tried the notching technique on my Antonovka apple whip a few days ago.

@scootin123

6 жыл бұрын

enshrined tried it on a pear tree last year I cut a Cresent shape chunk out the resulting branch was very thick a quarter inch thick and in second season it's 7 inches long growing straight up . Not a desirable branch they break off very easy when I try to train it away from the trumk. This year, now I will take a hint from a YT demonstration showing no notch removal but a razor slice one third around the trunk

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

You can train the branch outward in the first month or so of growth when it's very soft still. I've been meaning to try just cutting into the bark and not cutting out a notch. I hope it works. It seems much easier and the tree would heal faster. Was it claimed to make better branch angles? Please post a link if you have one. Thanks.

@nineallday000

6 жыл бұрын

kzread.info/dash/bejne/q217la-TpaWahZs.html this is a cool looking tool that this guy uses on a walnut tree to make a cut into the bark and from his demonstration he doesnt seem to cut very deep on it.

@scootin123

6 жыл бұрын

SkillCult " How to notch dormant pear tree buds:" @ toolsresource YT channel . Looks like he is using a trapezoid razor blade knife

This was very helpful. I wasn't sure how to proceed with trimming my newly planted bare root apricot. Now I will use the delayed open center method since the sun in our area isn't super intense

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

You might watch this one too. kzread.info/dash/bejne/fXV8sMSjn7e9qcY.html

Best video available ❤

Great video. Thank you. Maybe explain the strong apical dominance of apples and how it effects the structure.

Another good video.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Jerry

Thanks Steven! I really needed this video.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

modified central leader is probably good for where you live. I"ll bet sunburn is a major problem. It's no guarantee, but it's safer than any open center form. a good tree paint is 100% prevention though.

@mesimamasa6327

6 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure - I'm quite new to growing fruit trees, but though it's extremely hot here in the summertime, at 40 meters below sea level I don't know if sunburn happens that often. or maybe it does and I just don't recognize it for what it is (Bell peppers do get the fruit sort of blemished if not shaded in july-august). Anyway your methodical approach to training and pruning, primary and secondary scaffold etc. makes me feel now I know where to start from.

@freemankwok6891

4 жыл бұрын

SkillCult could I have your emAIL?

Generous teacher, thank you

@SkillCult

5 жыл бұрын

You're welcome :)

Spot on.

Thanks! So much better than the "two whorl" system. I wish we could archive those old methods rather than perpetuate them.

excellent thank you

There’s a chapter in a book called “Guns Germs and Steel” that is about the historical development of apples that is very interesting. Available as an audio recording. It’s very interesting.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I read that a long while back, but I don't even remember that part. It might still be around, so I'll check it out.

thanks again

Thank you!

@SkillCult

5 жыл бұрын

you're welcome. I have another fruit tree training video coming out in 2 minutes :). Make that one minute now...

I've noticed that the longer you want a tree to live the closer it needs to be to a natural wild tree shape, right from its early years. (Wild tree whips are not headed back every year, nor forced into a constrained size umbrella) Most tree training seems to lead to some degree of problems in the long term once the original form starts to become outgrown; much like you pointed out with one extreme end being intensive-production orchards. People need to consciously choose between short term and long term intent.

thanks for the great video - best explanation of forms i've seen to date. One suggestion... I had my laptops audio at max, and it is still pretty quiet, so you may want to remaster the audio on your videos in the future.

@SkillCult

5 жыл бұрын

Thanks. the production on that video is just pretty bad. I'd like to redo it sometime. I have a better mic now.

@kalsprite

5 жыл бұрын

Its great content - like i said, the best explanation i've seen to date. much appreciated. sounds like you've got the mic issue sorted from other videos.

This is great. Do you talk about ideal branch/scaffold length? There is a balance between knowing the branch will thicken and become strong, or bend, break, or tip the tree over eventually. That right branch in your video looks so long and arching, but you do not seem concerned. I sometimes see old fruit trees with support beams added. Does that mean they were badly trained, or just necessary with age?

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

No, I don't. There are so many variables. They can continue to grow out, but at some point enough is too much. It is easy to control spread though. props can be used to keep the branches up until they are bigger, but almost any tree can bend or break from fruit overload anyway if it's extreme enough. Thinning is good practice anyway. It prevents that problem and it prevents the tree from skipping years between fruiting. There is also a high variability in how the trees grow. All my King David trees want to come out more horizontal. A trick some use is if the branch bends down too much, they'll head it back to an upward facing bud to send it back upward. The reason these come out so far is because I have seedlings grafted onto the ends and I've let them grow pretty wild. If I didn't, they would be up to 18 inches, or maybe even more shorter than they are. Co-dominance isn't all about height either. It seems like if the branch is well established and forms a sort of highway for resources, it will continue to siphon off a lot of them as the come up the tree. If the branch grows more, it continues to grow a lot, because it's making more leaves and shoots. But, I think height seems to be a factor and probably more-so uprightness, in drawing growth to the area. All of which is to say that I think you could take a somewhat slower approach toward establishing and cultivating that co-dominance of the branches and top. It still seems important to set the stage early though and strike some balance, or you may have a scaffold run way ahead of the others, or the top want to keep being dominant.

(Another great book/audiobook I recommend is “Norwegian Wood” by Lars Mytting. It’s newly written. It applies more to your cord wood challenge. Much waxing poetic about chopping wood! It’s a sometimes laughable but passionate overview about wood cutting, heating and culture.)

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I actually read that and did a review on it a few years ago. I was hoping for a little bit more practical stuff, but it was a good read.

Thanks so much for talking about the smaller branches and how to think about shaping them. I find this part of pruning confusing and have ended up with some very strangle looking trees. Can I use the same general instructions for shaping my semi-dwarf apples?

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

You can if you want to. I have used the Modified Central Leader quite a bit for trees around 8 feet tall. When they are healthy and well shaped, there is plenty of fruiting wood and they are strong, attractive an easy to manage. My semi dwarf do you mean M111 rootstock?

I was just about to cut back some whips we put in this year and (thankfully) decided to do a little research first, and came across your channel. Totally changed what I'm going to do now! Thanks for putting your knowledge out there! I had never heard of notching or the modified leader. I have 10 whips of a type of heirloom apple called "LimberTwig" (native to the Appalachian region). Have you had any experience with this type of Apple and any additional tips to bear in mind? They apparently get the name as their branches are more limber and have a different growth habit to regular apple trees. I also have several regular peach, pear and plum that are 2 years old from a nursery that I'm going to try train using your methods. Great channel. Happy Thanksgiving!

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

Hi Alison. I have grown some of those apples, but I have not trained any from whips that I can think of. It will be interesting to see how the main scaffolds grow and if you have any issue with stiffening them. If they tend to droop and grow week right away, you could try tying them up with strings until the set and thicken in the position you want them. Props might work too. Feel free to report back :) Good luck!

@alisonkirton8377

Жыл бұрын

@@SkillCult thanks for the tips! I'll report back on their progress after notching. Right now they are not branching at all. Is it best to wait till early spring to notch or can it be done now? (Late November) we are in Southern Virginia, Blue Ridge plateau.

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

@@alisonkirton8377 I'd wait til about february to train. You ideally want to do it before they start pushing, but no reason to do it extra early.

@alisonkirton8377

Жыл бұрын

Gotcha...thanks! I will hold off till Feb (although after watching your technique I was eager to go out and try it right away! Lol)

You’re a savior bro. Tree philosopher 🫶🤙

Thank you for this useful video. Which training form do you recommend for almond trees? Modified Central Leader or Delayed Open Center?

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

I"m not sure. Mine are trained to modified central, but I'm not sure it's the best or not. Since almonds are not usually picked by hand, but beaten or shaken down, they can be taller. I think they are commonly trained to open center in California, but I'm really not sure. sorry I can't help more.

@AlmondFarming

4 жыл бұрын

@@SkillCult kzread.info/dash/bejne/kXaJ19ikmqy0ZZs.html This is my almond orchard in Turkey.

Would you do this the same way for bench grafted trees where the upper growth is the scion variety (obviously next year or the following)? Or, would it be better to grow up a rootstock seedling and train that to a Modified Central leader, and then graft the scions that you want to grow onto the secondary scaffolds? I bench grafted 50 or so pears, apples, and some wild crabs I found. I have a few more yet to do, as not all have taken. So I still have the opportunity to hold back rootstock to grow out. ps- is there a way you can check to make sure my Amazon purchases are going toward your affiliate account? I have your link bookmarked and click it each time to go to the site.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

In the past I typically have grafted the stock, then if I want to add extra varieties, I'll graft them onto the top later. I'm actually planning to do a frankenpear this year where I grow the stock up first and graft the main scaffold limbs and the top to different pear varieties. In some cases you would not want to do that though. If the stock produces a lot of burr knots, like some of the EMLA rootstocks, like M111, you should graft near the soil line or you'll have burr knot all up and down the trunk later. If you click through any link on my amazon store page www.skillcult.com/amazon-store or any other amazon link, and then click on the address bar to highlight it, somewhere in that long string of address junk it should say skillcult You shouldn't have to check it though. That is also supposed to start a session where anything you buy for the next 12 or 24 hours I forget which, will be tracked through my account as a click through. I don't know how to check that, but we shouldn't have to. Thanks :)

This is an amazing explanation! I have a bunch of 1- and 2-year old apple trees, they're on wild rootstocks so I expect them to become pretty large... I've been wanting to do modified central leaders on them to prevent them becoming super tall. Do you reckon it will work with such vigorous rootstocks?

@SkillCult

4 ай бұрын

I can't really say. I think you can pull it off, but they might really want to overgrow too. My trees are subject to drought conditions all summer, so they don't grow like crazy. I would probably try it though. if it doesn't work out, I think you can probably grow it up and create another tier or more of a central leader type. Or try several different things and see what works. You'd be better off talking to someone in your growing conditions, or similar on what forms are best. I only can speak to what works here for sure. the training methods can be applied to many different forms.

@jakobbrun6535

4 ай бұрын

@@SkillCult Thanks for the reply! I also considered a "double modified central leader", so 2 tiers of branches before topping the tree. 6-8 codominant branches might succesfully stop the top. Guess I'll have to see!

@SkillCult

4 ай бұрын

@@jakobbrun6535 You can still keep it in check, but you might be pruning off long, large diameter shoots every year.

@ SkillCult at @ 12:27 you say the sun is intense during the summer. Whats your latitude? how do I identify sunburn?

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

39 degrees. It will always be where the fruit is directly facing the sun. Sometimes discoloration and different growth under the skin, or sometimes, it turns brown and dies. it should be pretty obvious.

Thank you for your great work in looking behind common recommendations! I have some questions, if you find the time. 1. How old is the oldest tree that you trained exactly like this and can we see it in one of your videos? I am very curious how it will look later on when all this energy only goes into these co-dominate scaffolds/leaders. But also... 2. ...I imagine that a successfull secondary scaffold structure with so much fruiting could lead to loads that would push the primaries down horizontally or beyond over time. What is your experience/estamation regarding my “theory“? 3. Would you consider your preferred tree structure to be especially suited for grafting and multi-grafting? I thought about this when you listed the other advantages. Very inspired by your approach and the way you research and arrange common knowledge in a new and more effective way! Best from Berlin, Alex

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

It's not always about age, but whether it is feathered out or not. If it already has branches, sometimes they will dominate so much that it's hard to get other stuff to grow out. I think th older those branches are, the harder it is. but a slow growing tree could be 3 years old and still be essentially like a whip. You can always get fruit pulling branches down if the branches are not thickened and stiff enough to resist it. I have trained quite a few trees this way, or similar that are early bearing dwarfs and for the most part it has worked out fine. The 1920 apple tree study recommended to let the branches grow upward if they want. It may be because of that effect, I can't remember, or a combination of that and so they attain codominance. I will head main leaders back if they are growing way out and I think they could stand to be slowed down a bit. but for the most part, I let them go pretty fast and get the secondaries out as soon as possible. All of that stuff will be more informed if I can get some land and get experiments in the ground. I'll be starting all my new trees on these methods and watching them develop over as many years as it takes to get an idea of how that all plays out over time. I never actually really thought of that, but I think it may be. Central leaders are a little more challenging probably. DOC and MCL do have a really nice organized framework for working off of.

@ayzie804

Жыл бұрын

@@SkillCult ​ Also, regarding graftibility, MCL scaffolds could present just more really suitable spots for grafts and overall providing better/more reliable for them because of the advantages you mentioned like co-dominance, them effectively being alternate trunks and the relatively few main limbs the tree has. I wonder if your impressive grafting percentages could also have to do with your tree design... Anyway, I find myself liking your approach so much that I am trying to find even more reasons for it. The most important advantage that comes to mind, of course, being that older MCL trees could become great trees for kids to climb on!!! 🤩 I am looking forward to your future observations and experiments and wish you the best of luck with finding more land to expand them! If I get that kind of luck myself, I would like to do my own MCL trials, maybe with other species than apples and pears. Until then, do you know if some of your apples have made it to Europe yet? You mentioned that you sell scions but I assume shipping to overseas doesn't make sense. Yet I am very interested in some of the varieties you so delicately described in other videos. Would love to be part of your expansion to Europe if it hasn't happened yet (in which case, I would be very thankful for a link or address). Really appreciate the conversation in any case. Cheers, Alex

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

@@ayzie804 I know that some of them are over there. I don't think my grafting success rate has anything to do with tree form. But they are pretty convenient regarding choosing good spots. \

When you hang weights or tie off a limb to change it’s direction how do you avoid the lines to avoid biting into the bark?

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Don't wrap them, just hang it loose. These have heavy wire hooks that just hang over the top, but wide twine is okay if you don't tie or wrap it tight.

I think the delayed open centre is probably the best back yard apple tree for people that want apples, and pruning and controlling the form is lower on their list of priorities. This season I grafted around 20 three foot pieces of scion wood (water shoots) onto mm106 rootstocks all are growing away well. I mention this as I know you have the same opinion that the size of the scion wood is unimportant.when it comes to its survival.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I don't like it too much because of the sunburn issue. It can be managed for more growth inside, but the MCL seems to be better. Even so, I still get some sunburning.

@ajones8699

6 жыл бұрын

I wonder if hedging might help with the right height and placing To much sun has not been an issue for me but too much rain doesn't help.

" pruning Bartlett pear to optimize fruit quality": by YT channel WSU CHANRS demonstrates and narrates girdling and notching @ the 13 minute mark . He shows a top branch about two feet long. He notches the buds w/a hand lopper. Not a notch ,just a slice, starting from the bottom of the branch to midway. @ the midpoint he girdles the branch using the hand loppers, again just slicing as he circles the circumference. Then he clips off the terminal end and removes the leaves just bunched under the branch's tip He offers an explanation Cutting the tip and removing the leaves will bud from the top to the midway point . The girdling and notched buds will bud from the middle to the bottom then he discusses chemical Bud breaker , which I didn't hang around for figuring a minimum order could be 303 dollars for a small Barrel. Or carboy I think they call it L

Great video. Thanks. Six years ago, I planted apple, peach, and apricot trees and made them all open center based on something I read at the time. I've already lost two peach trees because of the weakness of that kind of structure. My question is: is it feasible to somehow reform an open center as a modified or delayed central leader? THx

@alphanumeric1529

Жыл бұрын

I did the same thing, except I watched this video first. There is no helping stupid. My scaffolds are spaced about 3 - 4 inches apart up the trunk, and while training the scaffolds to a more open angle this spring, I lost one scaffold in a wind storm. It took a big bite out of the trunk... the trunk is about at half width there, in about 2 - 3 inches in height. So, I don't know what will happen to this tree, but I'd like to know how to train it back so there is a little shade in the center of the tree as we are too close to the sun! Absent SC response and revelation, I'm just going to try to train secondary scaffolds off the primary to grow back into the center. But I'd like to know, in your case, if you lopped your central leader, and now have a crown of scaffolds, if one of them can become a central leader by training it vertical, and letting it gain dominance for a few years?

@jimmunger257

Жыл бұрын

@@alphanumeric1529 I've been working on just that. I have identified a new central leader and have been pruning to favor that leader. Will I be successful? Will I be able to avoid lopsidedness? Not sure. It will take a few years to know.

Can you train a tree with this method with the intergrafting method of the M11 and M8 video that you've done?

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah for sure. I have a bunch of them.

@stephenluna7932

3 жыл бұрын

@@SkillCult if I understand correctly you do this shaping with the rootstock and then graft on the varieties you want with the 2ndary scaffolds? As in the buds that grow from the 2ndary scaffolds you graft the varieties you want for the fruiting wood

Will this structure still work with dwarf trees? I planted 7 fruit trees last year and will be doing my first pruning in the next couple day. I’m excited and nervous to start forming strong productive trees.

@SkillCult

5 жыл бұрын

for sure it will, but it many not be the best choice depending on what you want out of them. it's strength is in offering a durable, long lived structure and most dwarfs don't live as long and don't carry the same type of loads. But it will work. I have used it on some 8 foot dwarfs and like it well enough. There are probably more productive systems if that is your main goal, look into dwarf training systems like tall spindle.

My apple trees need several other species for proper pollination. Just a thought... If I graft a flowering crab apple into my apple tree, will the crab branch pollinate the rest of the tree?

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Definitely. I would just use other high quality apples though. If you put on a number of them, you probably don't need to worry about which ones, but if only one or two, you could look into using ones that are known to be good pollinators or bloom at the same time.

which form do you recommand for nut tree:central leader or modified central leader?

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

I have done walnuts as modified central. If they are very vigorous, they might want to grow a second tier and end up more like a central leader. I don't grow a lot of nuts, so i can't comment too much. Since they don't require at much maintenance and picking as fruit trees, i would think central leader for the most part, but there ar ea lot of kinds of nuts. Almonds, I would do modified central.

Simple question ......does it matter what direction each scaffold points? NSE or W? Is it a good idea to let a N scaffold grow higher than the others? (N hemisphere growers)

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, it is best to put the lowest branch either south or west, or southwest, for protection from sunburn. It doesn't always matter though. Depending on climate and maybe sometimes trunk height. Otherwise, I don't think so, or at least I can't think of any other resally good reasons. The N branch should get enough light if the tree isn't totally overgrown. You could put the N. branch as the highest, but I doubt it's really going to pay any dividends. It's an interesting thought though and some observation re: fruit quality and light exposure through the day and through the seasons might tell you something. it seems unnecessary though and I'd just go with balancing the growth out on either one of these tree forms.

Some farmers suppress the central leader by pruning after the first branching layer and allow a secondary leader to develop in modified central leader system. Have you heard of it? Do you know any special reason for that? What does the term "modified" refer?

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure I understand, but it sounds like you might mean than there are two leaders after the first tier of branches? Modfied central is not really a central leader at all. But it does have a central leader. The suppression comes from competition from the large branches and also becuse the leader is cu and allowed to form a top of several small leaders, which are further kept down by yearly pruning.

@AlmondFarming

4 жыл бұрын

@@SkillCult After the first tier of branches the top of central leader is being cut. One year later, the tree creates new shoots at the top and all of them are pruned but the most vertical one is left to grow verticaly to become the new leader. If possible, it is better to choose this leader from the opposite side of grafting point of the tree to its rootstock.The second tier of branches will be formed on the second leader. One year later the same process will be repeated and the third leader will be created. As far as I know, this is the way of "modifiying" the central leader. That's why it called as "modified leader". This is what I have learned from some applications in our country Turkey but I am not sure if they rely on academic researches.

@SkillCult

4 жыл бұрын

@@AlmondFarming That is exactly the type of process that I am trying to get away from, because it is so slow. The logic is that in order to get the trunk to make laterals, it is cut to stimulate branching just below that point. But then you have to remove all the leader growth and start over so it is years before the tree attains it's structure. Modified central leader is not a very good term for the tree form, because it is quite different than a regular central leader, which will have more and smaller branches that compete less with the tree top or leader. I don't train central leader trees, so I haven't used these methods to try to get the best central leader forms. If your English is good enough, read the apple tree framework study skillcult.com/freestuff . They talk about how the method of heading as you describe was often leading to more open forms with various problems. I only have a few almonds and only one that is doing very well and I train them to modified central as I described it here. But almonds branch a lot as they grow so you may have many opportunities to select what you want from the branches that grow, without heading back, using summer pinching. With other tree types, they will often grow very long sections of trunk with no side branching and have to be cut back or some buds removed, or notched or a combination in order to create side branches. Using notching and disbudding you can get the branches just where they are wanted and the tree form is set in place much faster. My friend Eliza Greenman is playing with these methods for training Central Leader trees to get forms quicker and strategize branch placement. I haven't talked to her for a while, so I don't know what her results are yet.

👍

Could you run goats underneath the apple trees and have them eat the smaller growth on the bottom and keep the grass and weeds low?

@nonyobussiness3440

6 жыл бұрын

Cory Snyder they’ll bit the tree

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Typically they are going to trash the trees because they are browsers more than grazers. They can stand on their back legs and reach branches too. Sheep and cows are better, but not sure about how likely sheep are to damage the trees when well fed. I know they will eat bark if hungry.

@mynameisnotcory

6 жыл бұрын

True...

@Jay-tk7ib

6 жыл бұрын

I've heard that people use to want their cattle to graze underneath their fruit trees, so they would train the trees so the lowest branched started high on the tree. Of course that was when trees were full sized.

@mynameisnotcory

6 жыл бұрын

Jerry Bee with hops they developed a breed of sheep thats extremely short and can’t stand up like a goat on its hind legs so they wouldnt eat the higher cones up the bines but theyd eat the bottom leaves where airflow is key and kept the grass trimmed

I know you arent so concerned with yield but i am a little bit due to only having a couple acres and not wanting to plant so many apple trees, just enough for our yearly juice and applesauce supply, would training a modified central leader like this with very few primary scaffolds lead to a higher yield compared to more of a central leader with more scaffolding branches, having the plan of shaking the fruit down or collecting windfall? Everyone in Sweden plants apple trees in their yards (its like a first home purchase must do, to plant a few apple trees and never actually eat the apples from the trees)and we go around collecting the fruit so we get a lot of opportunity to observe different trees, and it always seems to me like the ones that were clearly unpruned and grew to be massive central leaders just produce bucketloads of fruit compared to any other trees. Any studies about yield related to number of scaffolding branches left in a modified leader form? I have been leaving more scaffold branches on my apples than this with the thought to allow them to get taller and approach more of the central leader form, not really caring if I can reach the top of the tree or not, with the thought that it would produce like these massive unpruned central leader trees while still having good crotch angles, good air flow, avoid fungal disease that would shorten the life of the tree etc. Definitely going to train my full size pears and cherries like this though as it really seems optimal for being able to reach all the fruit while still keeping a natural form for the tree!

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I don't know of any studies, but I think it is an efficient form. It used to be very common and it still used sometimes. The most efficient per acre systems are probably the intensive row systems, but you'd have to look it up to be sure. People have put up with central leaders for some good reason and it is probably a combination of productivity and fruit quality, but it's definitely not convenience.

@nineallday000

6 жыл бұрын

Yea i have read a lot of studies comparing yields relating to the intensive row systems, specifically for cherries, and the intensive row thing is the most efficient for years 5 to 10 years or so i believe it was but what is significant is that by year 17 or 18 or so the total lifetime yield from standard trees over the life of the planting is higher than the total lifetime yield from the more dwarfing style of training even though the trees didnt even produce a fruit until year 10, and by year 20 it was just outyielding it a tremendous amount which is when they stopped giving statistics. The university study i read about this still of course recommended dwarfing rootstocks to people because of the quicker payback on borrowed money. For those of us growing trees from seed, grafting, generally being as cheap as possible, this isnt as much of a concern though :-). I at one time read a similar one related to pears that came to basically the same conclusions. Was just more curious based on your experience with trees and how you decided on 3 primary scaffolding branches being better than say a lower layer of scaffolding branches followed by a layer higher up, sort of the training the holistic orchard guy recommends which is what I have been going with so far? Is it just that it is easier to manage with the fewer scaffolding branches? It just seems to me that eventually 50 years down the road, the fruiting wood would move quite far out from the tree and those primary scaffolds would get pretty huge while not bearing as much fruit.

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

That's interesting information. Mature trees can actually drop in yield pretty fast too after their peak. If I remember right, the framework study might have talked about that with apple trees. I've always tended toward the modified central leader. I've not spent much time with tiered central leaders though. I Like the look of MCL, and I like that I can get in and work. When more mature, they are usually very climbable. Actually, even when pretty young like this, you can step on the scaffolds if you step close to the trunk. Also, due to co-dominance, I imagine it should be less of a struggle to size control trees on these systems than on a central leader tree. Robert Kourik has a picture in his book of a more than 100 year old pear tree trained to delayed open center, which he says has borne up to 500 lb of fruit in a year. Unfortunately, I never get to see trees like that in person, although I know where that tree is and I know the people that live there now, so I could go check it out.

If a tree has a lot of branches, wouldn't that stress the tree and cause it to create more routes?

@SkillCult

Жыл бұрын

I don't follow

Looked up a link for the study, www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/99057#page/7/mode/1up

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks. I also put it on my page of free downloads. www.skillcult.com/freestuff but I forgot to put the link up.

Would this be good in finland?

@SkillCult

2 жыл бұрын

I don't see why not.

Is this a seedling tree?

@SkillCult

3 жыл бұрын

The tree on the side is grafted to M111. The top was edwards fine winter, but I reworked it to Pink Parfait and grafted on three seedlings, one of which is a new variety I let out this year called Black Strawberry.

What is the name of your website

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

skillcult.com

@scootin123

6 жыл бұрын

SkillCult I see your best skill is website design. There a whole day of browsing on your site, the first category in my going to click on is paleo something What the heck is that all about

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

That's for primitive type skills, popularly referred to as primitive technology. I've yet to really even get started on those subjects yet.

I had to establish a new leader this past weekend - kzread.info/dash/bejne/p2l1l7KReNLMctY.html

You remind me of John Travolta in the movie Phenomenon where he seeks everything,every detail on the subject of plants!! Only your info comes from pure natural studying of wanting to know!! I wonder if you realize you will be leaving behind a legacy as others did before you?? Of course,I believe you just might die as a very old intellectual.

@joannalanzoni5913

6 жыл бұрын

Haha!! Posted my comment near the end,but didnt wait till the end!! That's funny!!

@SkillCult

6 жыл бұрын

I'm not sure I saw that one. I'll look it up. I doubt I'll live for a long time. My body has been wracked for decades now and it seems like it has to catch up with me eventually. But I'd like to create as much influence in this sort of thing as I can while I'm here. That's the mission :)

Me

@scootin123

6 жыл бұрын

Cory Snyder me too