20 years to go from HTML generated by the server with some JS for interactivity to GUI programing in pure JS back to HTML generated on the server with some JS. Time is really just a circle.

@laughingvampire7555

10 ай бұрын

@@thelvadam5269 who did it? AFAIK no one did, it is just developers who get obsessed with trying the new shinny thing, because we are humans and humans get addicted to novelty pretty easy. Get ready because htmx will be awesome for awhile and then people will get overcomplicated once again.

@josefaguilar2955

10 ай бұрын

Good solutions never go out of fashion

@docmars

10 ай бұрын

@@thelvadam5269 I totally disagree. Before NodeJS, having to work in two different languages just to get a server + client going with horrendous spaghetti code using jQuery or vanilla JS was a nightmare, before React, Vue, and eventually Svelte came along. The developer experience matters just as much as the resulting code/technologies chosen for a project. A good developer experience is a productive one. The more you can reduce cognitive load, the easier + faster it will be to create an application.

@balen7555

10 ай бұрын

​@@docmars Have you thought that perhaps this is because of other factors? Like JS being worse then? This is also a false dilemma; your choices are not limited to spaghetti code using jQuery or full-blown SPAs. The DX for Phoenix LifeView and the likes of it is much better than React for most part. Also, developer productivity is how well you're accustomed to a stack.

@docmars

10 ай бұрын

@@balen7555 I personally don't think JS is worse somehow. It was easier to learn than PHP or Ruby (+on Rails) even and has served me really well for my entire career. My whole point is: being able to work isomorphically reduces cognitive load because you aren't juggling several languages to solve a small scope of problems, which in this case, is the web itself. The native language for browsers is Javascript, so you may as well be writing JS, debugging JS, and working in JS to solve problems in the browser. Using anything else for scripting is an abstraction around that, and often with frustratingly limiting factors. I hold this opinion less strongly when it comes to servers, because APIs and server-side business logic is a whole different animal. In any case, all of this is a matter of preference, but back to the original argument -- I think it's naive to say that JS is a poor solution to web problems, when... _it is the web._

The more you understand the more impressed you get by simple stuff, because in reality, there's so much complexity underneath everything, it's awesome

@jonty3551

10 ай бұрын

ooofffffcccoouuuurrrrsssseeee

@fiery_transition

10 ай бұрын

@@jonty3551 SHARING THE THINGS WE APPRECIATEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IS NOT DUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMM

@vasiliigulevich9202

10 ай бұрын

Not really, if you start with Netscape without JS, the complexity of modern web is obviously moronic.

@fiery_transition

10 ай бұрын

@@vasiliigulevich9202 Well, I meant it more like an appreciation of everything which is usually taken for granted, from the bottom of the computer architecture to the top. JS is what it is, 2 weeks worth of programming to ship a product back in the day. What can you do.. And what the web is today, well, that is a longer story, but we can agree that unneeded complexity is bad, but even if you peel everything away you don't like, the uncrufty things are still quite interesting none the less .

@anggoran7398

10 ай бұрын

We use framework to get rid of complexity. React is not only about SPA that is simple to host, but also a framework that has templating engine on it, JSX. Think about what React simplifies: 1. Templating engine. 2. Hosting. 3. No need to write CSS (using component library). 4. If we need a server-side rendering with frontend-focused, we can use Next.js. 5. Many more.

I was able to dev a software that acts as if a SAP by just using HTMX with django... No Frontend framework... It works wonders

I love the take on browser developers vs server developers. Where I work we are split into "web developers" and "software engineers" (aka back-end). I'm the only full-stack developer in the department. It is so painful to see people in their respective camps hyper focused on their small slice of a project. They can't see how their actions/inactions effect the devs on the other side of the fence.

@TheSulross

9 ай бұрын

Am so thankful that have not been cursed in life to be a web front-end developer. Those that are mired in that fate must have a lot of past life bad karma to pay down on.

Apple has had the Hypercard since the 1980s, Carson based HTMX on the Hypercard, and Apple had the opportunity to have had revolutionized browsers before Brendan Eich ruined them with JS. But they were to busy going bankrupt in the 1990s and trying to get Jobs back.

@disruptive_innovator

10 ай бұрын

sad but true

@rodrigobarraza

10 ай бұрын

Even though your statements about HyperCard and Apple getting financially fucked are true, there is no confirmation that HTMX drew inspiration from HyperCard, and a little bit of an overstatement to say that Brendan Eich "ruined" browsers with JavaScript. JavaScript has indeed become a fundamental technology that enables interactive web pages and is a critical component of web applications. While JavaScript's design and implementation have been subject to critiques, it has contributed significantly to the web's evolution one way or another. For all we know it could have been just as worse as it could have been better, but "what if's" are just that in the end.

@MicahKillian

10 ай бұрын

Carson's hyperscript is the language based off of Hypercard.

@ArkhKGB

10 ай бұрын

We should have gotten Hyperlisp kzread.info/dash/bejne/an6DppN6garXdco.html

@fennecbesixdouze1794

10 ай бұрын

@@MicahKillian *based off of HyperTalk and its descendants (AppleScript etc).

@15:24 totally hit the nail on the head. I'm laughing with you but crying on the inside because it's a struggle to make dev-friends with a busy life working part-time in a warehouse while looking for a dev job after graduating boot camp while trying to support my family (wife + 3 year old + one incoming) while keeping the house from falling into chaos living with parents while trying keep my passion for coding from burning out. Life's hard but it doesn't have to suck!

@huuhhhhhhh

8 ай бұрын

I can relate. Keep at it bro. Glad to have Prime trying to hype us out of life in React hell.

I have microfinance system in Django and htmx.A life saver,dont have time to manage react complexity,when i have more important things on the backend,like ledgers , accounting and api integrations.😊😊

@nchomey

10 ай бұрын

Is this something that is public? I'd be curious to take a look

@k98killer

10 ай бұрын

Nice. I've been working on a new FOSS fintech stack for over a year at this point. Trying to integrate advanced cryptographic features and such informed by Bitcoin but in the context of a credit network.

@repotranstech9614

10 ай бұрын

​@@nchomeybanking and regulations give me your email address.i share a link

@ralexand56

7 ай бұрын

I don't understand what's so complicated about React. It's functions and JavaScript.

@repotranstech9614

7 ай бұрын

​@@ralexand56json serialization steps and as a banking app the state should always be on the server.

Prime: "I'm not going 1.5x speed simply because since he's not obviously a native English speaker I don't want it to become too hard to understand him." Me watching this on 2x speed: "Good choice."

@nandoflorestan

6 күн бұрын

That's when you ought to realize you should lay off the cocaine.

Something indeed has happened to our brain lol. I get excited by stuff like this, but then I check out what's going on in the game dev world and I see Lumen and Nanite, crunching trillions of polygons at 60FPS...and I feel sad.

@perc-ai

10 ай бұрын

everything will be gpu based streamed

@OryginTech

10 ай бұрын

You got excited to see global state management? I swear prime is a prime example of someone with a serious skill issue when it comes to react. Even a junior dev in my company can do global statement management in 5mins of work. It’s not some mind blowing incredible feat of engineering to write a few lines of code and use zustand etc etc.

@jkf16m96

10 ай бұрын

​@@OryginTechoh boy. You're really writing this as it was that simple. Then tell me, why do you thing zustand was invented in the first place, and how the early react users handled react? Even before hooks. It's not such a big deal right now because react ecosystem improved, but how wild it was before react hooks and whatever, damn. Redux is a big deal, but nowadays you can use redux toolkit or zustand always, I prefer zustand always.

@perc-ai

10 ай бұрын

@@OryginTech do it without zustand u dummy lol then come back here to write a comment you are a jr dev that cant write zustand or anything close to it dont put down Prime he is staff architect

@OryginTech

10 ай бұрын

@@jkf16m96 oh boy. Tell me again why we are talking about react before hooks? I can remember a time where computers were the size of entire rooms 🫨 oh man computers really SUCK huh? The whole point of react is it’s mature ecosystem. Literally takes 2secs to npm install anything you need to build a product. I’ve literally seen an entire thread with hundreds of comments on why Svelte is better because it has great built in state management 🤦‍♂️ Are you that lazy that you can’t install zustand and copy the boilerplate in 😂😂

This was a great video reaction. I sense fresh air from the HTMX direction that is exciting. Having built sizable projects in Ember (long time ago) and then Angular (still maintaining that one), *not* having a front-end framework seems wonderful. Also, I love how surprising and abrupt the signoffs here are!

it would be cool if htmx gets standardized and supported by browsers so that there would be no need even for that little js that sends and receives parts of the page cuz the browser takes care of it.

@ihnatklimchuk1018

10 ай бұрын

It's called cache

@y_arml

10 ай бұрын

@@ihnatklimchuk1018 uhmm no?

@mma93067

10 ай бұрын

@@ihnatklimchuk1018we mean native partial support

@arjix8738

10 ай бұрын

@@ihnatklimchuk1018 if htmx was natively supported, it would be more optimized, you wouldn't depend on the JIT optimization JS has

@Hwyadylaw

10 ай бұрын

It wouldn't make a huge difference in practice. However, I agree that some functionality in the direction of htmx would be good (and honestly long overdue)

Between this and Rust, this is one of the most exciting times for me as an engineer. Anything that shortens the amount of time that I have to work with React as a massive win in my book. So glad Prime is shining light on these things for me, I can't wait to start my next project.

@FromRootsToRadicals

9 ай бұрын

Should i check out rust? Im a senior full stack heavy js and mainly spa or mvc.

@ccj2

9 ай бұрын

@@FromRootsToRadicals I recommend it, but if you’re not familiar with working with statically typed languages it may be a bit bigger if a learning curve. It’s worth looking into nonetheless, the documentation for it is fabulous.

@ralexand56

7 ай бұрын

What's wrong with React?

@ccj2

7 ай бұрын

@@ralexand56 specifically when using React for web: Verbosity. Incorporating state management (like Redux) is unnecessarily complicated. JSX. Very easy for developers to implement anti-patterns and poor design choices. I personally hate hooks but that’s probably more of a me thing than a React thing.

@aodhai

7 ай бұрын

@@ralexand56are you watching the video or just reading the comments

I can't imagine getting 1 month to do a proof of concept at my job. Management won't even give me a week to do proof of concepts.

@perc-ai

10 ай бұрын

ur job sucks then

@hannessteffenhagen61

10 ай бұрын

And now there’s my current company spending 6 months on a PoC with one team, then handing it to us to re-implement it in two months with a completely new design.

@BlazingMagpie

10 ай бұрын

You guys get to make PoCs?

@TheNewton

9 ай бұрын

if you don't have a prototyping phase your product is a prototype with all the problems of a prototype baked in.

@ShafickCure

3 ай бұрын

@@BlazingMagpieHaha.

If a rich "offline experience" is a main concern.... you probably shouldn't be writing a webapp to begin with.

@fernandojmhs

2 күн бұрын

That is a really fair point

I think I just might have to jump in to HTMX as an old backend/fullstack head that never really fully jumped into the React/VUE.js land. I love how you can actually use HTMX with the old skool style CDN

@ThePrimeTime funnily enough i work at a company where it is actually necessary for the web app to work offline because else someone might die because information is not transferred after reconnect and then miscommunication will happen.

I remember working on a website in 2010. PHP driven, so real old school. We used jQuery to a) provide IE6 compatibility and b) do some easier CSS selector magic. I remember being VERY firm on using HTML classes to define functionality..Needed a table to be sorted? table class="sortable". We also used #section-id to update a specific section - and if you had JS turned off the page would actually reload and go to that place! All in all the content took up less than 30kb of client side code and another 300kb of images. It was glorious. PHP backend was a template nightmare though 😁

@TheNewton

9 ай бұрын

A main difference now is instead of classes is using attributes for SOC from styles, and for making the responsibility & namespacing clearer.

R is my main language and I honestly don't feel confident when dealing with JavaScript. On my job I developed some Plumber APIs (API implementation with R, very similar syntax with Express) that already delivers HTML buffers as a response to the requests. Being able to integrate this with HTMX is just a god's gift for me.

I'm waiting for developers to come full circle again and say in 10 years React is the way to go rather than just HTML and sprinkle of JavaScript

@ea_naseer

10 ай бұрын

I feel like if Haskell fully embraced all the functional concepts yes everybody will say it is the future in 10 years

@inkryption3386

10 ай бұрын

​@@ea_naseerhaskell is kind of dead in the industry

@fantasypvp

10 ай бұрын

@@ea_naseerimo rust is a better option as it has functional elements but is much more versatile and far closer to existing standards. everything you can do with js you can theoretically do with rust compiled to wasm (and many rust libraries for the frontend have similar syntax to things like react)

@katrinabryce

10 ай бұрын

I hope that in 10 years time, Javascript is considered as obsolete as Cobol or Visual Basic, and we have an actually decent front-end language.

@TheNewton

9 ай бұрын

In 10 years it will all be webasm containers for server side viewport rendering sent to clientside canvas ala angular shell payloads. There will be no DOM rendering"mutations clientside; basically glorified remote browsers. As long as the users internet connection is stable sites will load in MS instead of seconds and paint-update in even less.

Imagine if we had native partial support, to insert html response instead of a re-render

@Malix_off

10 ай бұрын

Tbh I don't imagine that or a similar thingy NOT being the next big thing in web-dev

@ea_naseer

10 ай бұрын

​@@Malix_offpartial hydration? 😂

@TheNewton

9 ай бұрын

2025 - webasm with DOM manipulation 2027 - template attribute for block level elements added to spec renders template on load: 2028 - Observer/pubsub primitives added to javascript 2030 - observe attribute added, use element behavior expanded Hello World or Hello World Hello World

@losiu998

9 ай бұрын

@@ea_naseer qwik doesn't do smth like that?

@Sandromatic

Күн бұрын

That would certainly help. That does 1/3rd of htmx's main things already. The other two are thus: allow html by itself to issue any http request, not just GET/POST, and allow any element to be triggered and issue requests via any event that the dom already has. Like, frankly, these are things that only had to be implemented by htmx because html for some reason doesn't support it. If html did support these simple things, we wouldn't need htmx, but since it doesn't, htmx fills the gap.

An htmx backend is cool and all, but eventually in your business growth it is time to build a mobile app. With a backend spitting out html instead of data endpoints, how do you handle that?

@romanval69

7 ай бұрын

I don't think there's a huge difference. Supporting a web browser client & a native mobile app is already two different UX designs / code bases.

@peterszarvas94

7 ай бұрын

You build a separate endpoints for json, keep existing html endpoints. Or use something like hyperview for htmx-style mobile apps.

@donnybystrom

6 ай бұрын

@@peterszarvas94 You are limited by not thinking full htmx mindset. What we should be doing is spitting out full pre-rendered views for the Android app, and separately full pre-rendered views for the iOS-app. if there are iOS watch and Android watches, create separate APIs for these too and spit out specific watch views. backenders should maintain it all, because backenders are fully qualified to understand and adapt to client environments thus the work should be theirs to solve. Idk, the whole concept seems like recreating problems we solved 10 years ago.

@donnybystrom

6 ай бұрын

@@romanval69 the web clients and the mobile clients has different code bases, but they consume the same data. What's the difference in data in Linkedin App and Likedin Website rendering a post? Now instead of having two clients consuming the same data and handling their own rendering logic, you have one API spitting out htmx like its 2002, and another spitting out JSON to be used in an app. Like why. To save 100ms rendering time on web? It just doesn't make sense to go back to the dark ages of PHP where backend spit out client code when most certainly the client code should live in the client.

@MaiconCarraro

7 күн бұрын

@@donnybystrom I also don't get it, there are so many layers on top of this, nowadays you can build insane experiences especially mobile, if you take "Vaul" from emilkowalski, thats a huge experience and it requires specific js code for ChromiumSafari... what I like the most in JS ecosystem are the custom UI to be consistent across different browsers/platform... and most of the time they have better a11y (radix) than the regular browser behavior. I started coding in a Java web project with Richfaces, it gives me a similar feeling when watching htmx (not a good feeling)... I'm really in love w/ Project Fugu that is improving web capabilities and allowing for even better experiences like Document PiP

Phoenix Liveview would melt his mind.

Prime, my man, the French do not add e at the end of the words. It's the English speakers that are forgetting letters.

@NathanHedglin

10 ай бұрын

😂😂😂

@SigururGubrandsson

10 ай бұрын

Well, then why do they never say them out loud? 😂

@electrictrojan6719

10 ай бұрын

Richard Beauchamp did nothing wrong

@lashlarue7924

3 ай бұрын

No, you are forgetting année, journée, crée, soirée, tablée, donnée, mosquée, etc. You are definitely adding extra 'e's at the end of your words.

@Jabberwockybird

2 ай бұрын

Les Français mettre un 'e' pour les mots feminine. grand /grande Petit / petite Cet / cette Etc / etce

I mean it's cool if what you want or need is to move as much frontend user interaction code and data fetching code to the server, but to me it looks like a very declarative PHP, like a way to make SSR integrate better with user interaction, and in fact feels a lot like Microsoft's Razor pages.

@datguy4104

9 ай бұрын

Just started using Razor pages, but after the initial SSR on it you still rely on JS to update pieces of the page unless you want a full page reload, right? Provided you aren't using Blazor components in the page anyway.

@PaulSebastianM

4 ай бұрын

​@@datguy4104 Razor replaces only changes html so a diff.

Couldn't the complicated functionality displayed in the demo also be accomplished quite simply with a data fetching tool (such as react query / swr) and just marking the query as outdated?

People commenting on XSS and HTMX don't seem to understand what XSS is, or how it is accomplished. The same potential issues apply to HTMX as to React, they are just solved in different places.

@ThePrimeTimeagen

10 ай бұрын

Someone here gets it at least

I guess I am just dumb and don't get it, but when rendering a "huge" list of 1000 items leads to a "wow"...omg.

@avwie132

8 ай бұрын

It’s amazing. We haven’t progressed at all in 20 years. We’re rendering HTML on the server again…. Dear lord

Javascript going in every field, meanwhile getting kicked out from it's own house lol

so each component listening for an event might be triggering a network call to update a number that has already been sent in the first network call? why not reuse that data? like, if I am showing the number of favorite documents in 3 sections that's 3 requests to the backend each time I add or remove something from favorites i guess it can be cached but the server still has to tell you that your e-tag is up to date and you are doing all of that work to communicate with the backend when you already got that data in the first place sounds like something that could be solved by an event bus

@k98killer

10 ай бұрын

If I understood this correctly, HTMX uses an event bus under the hood, so the network call is only made when the client-side event is created elsewhere on the page.

@k98killer

10 ай бұрын

Look at 16:15

@k98killer

10 ай бұрын

Wait, nvm. I see what you're saying now. You're right. I was just thinking about how maybe a system that uses a composite CRDT for state management might be helpful, then just have pub/sub for parts of the CRDT, and the CRDT-state library just synchronizes with the server in the background.

@arjix8738

10 ай бұрын

yeah HTMX would increase the server load

@JensRoland

10 ай бұрын

True, but you could extend a htmx like framework with a clientside event bus for purely clientside interactions like cross-component data passing. In fact, that’s exactly what we did in Tomahawk, a framework very similar to htmx that I created back in 2012 (sadly closed source as it was built for a company I worked for). This avoided unnecessary server roundtrips and made cross-component (decoupled) communication really simple to implement. Unfortunately I think this would clash with the htmx philosophy as it can’t easily be made to gracefully degrade to no-JS.

love it! In ruby on rails, we now have turbo/hotwired which is basically the same thing! works great and love that! we can make a very reactive UI with very little effort, no need for a frontend team!

@Deletedeletedelete

9 ай бұрын

Yes) looks like rails invented again :)

yes the french place E at the end of things and then they go on to not pronounce them!

One source of truth vs two ... so true, state in more places just means more bugs

@outwithrealitytoo

Ай бұрын

I agree - Multiple state machines reflecting one anothers' state... that way lies madness. It is why "Do not creating extra processes, threads or service types unless you have to" is not just sound advice, it is an adage of quality software.

It’s all cool until you want a mobile app or need to sell a headless product in parallel

@sergenalishiwa9097

3 ай бұрын

You just create new endpoint on your existing server.

We all forgotten about web components now...

@infantfrontender6131

9 ай бұрын

Because nobody doesn't want to create it from scratch. Libs like Stencil and Lit isn't popular

About the separation of concerns thing -- every time I've used react, I've ended up with a separation between the UI and the business logic, which is horizontal slicing. HTMX, on the other hand, seems to promote vertical slicing: you can, somewhat, expect every call made to the server to be a single feature, with all the business logic and UI logic for that feature in one place, and little to no logic for other feature being mixed in. As far as I know, that is better separation of concerns, rather than none at all like the presenter implied.

@cat-.-

10 ай бұрын

sometimes I value having an 'pure API' that returns json so you can have different kinds of clients all connecting to the same server. because mobile web is still shitty thanks to apple.

@CoderThomasB

9 ай бұрын

@@cat-.- Presumably, you can still have a JSON API or waterier alongside an HTML API. While this might be too complicated, you could have the HTML API just fetch from the other API and reformat the data in HTML.

@avwie132

8 ай бұрын

HTML API…. Are we for real right now? We’re going to use HTML as a means of transporting data?

I prefer JDSL over htmx

@ich6885

10 ай бұрын

Tom is a genius

@HolgerNestmann

10 ай бұрын

Tom is a genious

@cursordgod2935

9 ай бұрын

Tom is a geanios

@ActualJosiahPreston

9 ай бұрын

Tom is a jeanius

@SoulaORyvall

9 ай бұрын

Have you seen Marko?

if blazor server side rendering do what it promises, you can have a spa aplication feeling with server side rendering

So what exactly is the problem with having a React app with server state through react-query? Same stuff but looks much easier to maintain sync between components(say you have a favorite count and 3 different places where you can mark stuff as favorite) - and react-query will actually make only 1 reqeust between those 3 places unlike HTMX. Templating language is a thing of preference but writing onclick in React is probably easier than sprinkling your bits of native javascript in your Django templates. And in the end a React version will put less strain on the server. I think this presentation should've actually compared back to back some piece of UI code which was hard to do with React and was much easier to do through Django+HTMX - I'm not debating that writing a template with Django is not a bad experience, yet this is only thing this talk has convinced me of. I agree that if you have templates in Django - integrating it with HTMX is probably easier than a React rewrite. The only real example of React being a bad choice was a mention of how poorly in handled a render of 1000 element-long list - w/o a code example tho.

@arashitempesta

10 ай бұрын

react-query was a game changer, but remember the talk was in 2017, no hooks, and we were in the redux epoch, render props and the other myriad of patterns that people were figuring out to make SPAs with react, at that time, it was common to have duplicated server data inside the redux store through sagas and actions which was a pita as you are duping server data and logic in the clients, and now you need to deal with cache invalidation. Its the other reason why nextjs and other metaframeworks were born, letting the server handle everything it can standardizes a lot of stuff, mainly authentication and authorization which on a SPA you need to handle by yourself and sync state. Apollo client and react-query introduced the mental model that made it make much more sense. About server load, I somewhat agree, it depends on how you architecture the app, you can strain the server all the same with a SPA compared to rendering the html over there. Right now with SSR and other metaframeworks, like for example Remix, you ask for the same thing in several places and get the same result if it hasnt changed following that same model, with react-query, urql, apollo client you have a cache that you can pull from but, that doesnt mean you cant implement cache on the server with htmx too, difference is that you will need to follow http standards to handle said cache. React right now its mostly a safe bet due to inertia and adoption, huge ecosystem around it and a lot of devs you can pull from to work on the codebase, which is why most people start learning it or just choose it for everything. I feel that right now people are seeing other tools like svelte or solidjs and realizing that maybe the extra abstractions and mental models that react enforces arent the best path for every project, as it uses the vDOM so now you need to engineer solutions for accessibility and DOM interaction, which is similar to what happened to redux, which is a really good tool but people abused it for everything and anything and now its seen with disdain whenever someone talks about it, because they have the redux saga trainwreck trauma in the back of their minds.

@wanking9040

10 ай бұрын

You're absolutely right. I was not impressed by this at all. The guy in the video is Python back-end developer. He hasn't had to develop a large, complex, maintainable front-end app. Using HTML templates is bad developer-experience and unmaintainable.

@huge_letters

10 ай бұрын

@@wanking9040 I admit that what they had built with HTMX and Django looks nice - I just have trouble understanding what was so shitty about their React code except for that list example. Is that presentation a proof that you can built a cool production-ready app with HTMX? Sure. Is that proof that to build the same with React you would have to deal with 5 times the complexity? No, pretty sure it would be at least on par if not better.

@ThisNoName

10 ай бұрын

@@wanking9040 It started as using declarative data attribute to trigger ajax and swap html, looks like it still is. Guess not everything is large and complex, or need to be complex ... but almost exclusively, we are judged and paid by lines of code produced, libraries aiming at reduce complexities have never been popular

@huge_letters

10 ай бұрын

@@arashitempesta By caching I meant more scenarios where you have 3 buttons to toggle favorite - you need only 1 request to know what their state should be and react-query will handle that. I don't think you can do that with HTMX whatsoever - you can trigger events in other elements with a response but these events can only just send new requests. So yeah, you can press add to favorite, a server will send a response and a header in that response will tell the other 2 buttons to show updated state but both buttons will just send two new requests to fetch their state. it's not a deal breaker for sure but since we're making comparisons. Yeah, i agree that svelte is an amazing tool(haven't used solid yet) - I've just focused on the comparison the video is making. So as I've said my main takeaway is that HTMX is a really good solution if you use some backend language for templating - like go or python etc. I struggle to see how it should be an easier replacement to React except for performance reasons - in that case I think switching to Svelte/Vue/etc would be a more reasonable choice because of the flexibility these frameworks allow. Cause showing that "you can put hx-trigger=click and it replaces the element contents on click - ISNT THAT SUPER EASY??" - yeah, no shit, it's also really easy to do in React too. I don't really understand what people mean when they say React model is complex - you don't need to know how vDOM works and state model which just requires you to assign a new value is fairly straightforward. Yeah "arr=[...arg, element]" is really dumb BUT it's fairly simple to understand. Probably easier than "arr=arr" in Svelte or that "obj={...obj, a:5}" will lose reactivity in Vue - even thought I agree that Vue/Svelte reactivity/state models are superior to React. So in the end as I've said - remove all client state from you React app, replace it with server state through react-query and you've got the same thing basically but with an easy opt-in for stuff which you can only do with React(or with Svelte, Vue etc).

That was cool AF! It irks me a bit that I missed this stream tho!

The web site working in offline mode does not need to be difficult (to some extend) If the application is mostly read-only it can use Localstorage for most data. This way it can provide a lot of functionality even when the network is temporally off.

@outwithrealitytoo

Ай бұрын

And indeed by using UUIDs and immutable data you can use localstorage for data for later transfer up.

prime's chat absolutely malding over this talk gives me great pleasure

So it's basically like JSF with a component framework like PrimeFaces which has been around for ages. You need to write zero JS to have like a button which updates (partial ajax update) something within the page.

I just realized that I never have to increase the speed of TheHTMXisgoingtokillReactbecauseReactisanoverengineeredpieceofgarbage-agen's videos because he speaks at normal speeds and that is very nice.

Me using htmx and Django since 2019. :Look what they need to do to mimick a fraction of our power.

Remember the days we built full websites with Flash and ActionScript 2.0? You drag a button on to a screen and you write a script on the button about what to do, and you're done.

I watch almost all videos at 1.25 but only your videos are the one which I have to watch on 1 , just because I don't miss anything important ! 👏

I love HTMX. Been using it for the last 2 years now.

Typical of a french engineer (I know I'm one). Show an impressive stuff using visually non-impressive suff. The exact opposite of US marketers 😂

@airkami

Ай бұрын

Thanks for the croissant

29:15 *YES* that's what most of us are, brilliantly explained 👏👏

Nothing in this talk impressed me at all in terms of "wow, you can do THAT with just HTMX?" Of course you can, I worked for companies that did similar interactivity with just Flask partials and hand-written JS for the DOM updates and header eventing. The only thing that really stood out to me with this talk is a lesson that splitting up your team into "all us Django people working on all the respectable interesting hard 'backend' stuff" versus "that React guy we hired as cheaply as possible and don't respect, refuse to talk to or collaborate with, who we think of as just doing all that trivial frontend stuff that we don't want to think about", is not a recipe for a successful small team.

@zettadam

9 ай бұрын

Throughout his talk the presenter really shits on that front-end developer they let go (who's probably happy he left). This talk is not awesome at all.

@x--.

9 ай бұрын

@@zettadam Dependencies and lines of code may not be the best metric but it certainly speaks to maintainability. So either they hired what they could afford or they cheaped out and found efficiencies that allowed them to spend less money to get the same thing? Maybe it's not revolutionary but certainly that's the nature of "improvement through competition" -- they got a better end product cheaper. Even in the "wow" isn't something intrinsic to HTMX but rather due to market forces such as the availability of highly-competent labor it's still a big deal.

>who is here shocked it's all server side driven functionality without JS Yeah, like what we had with PHP 20 years ago? Our legacy project from 2008 swaps portions of the page by fetching dynamically generated HTML from the server :)

I can't wait for View Transitions API personally(the fact that v1 is single-page-only is crazy.. I can see a use-case for it, but it's fairly minor). View Transition API alone almost makes me want to swap over to Chrome..

I have not been this excited to code something in 4 years.

15:30 "What, its barely working" lol so ralatable

I might actually give this HTMX thing a try on an old ERP Java project where using a JS framework is not an option at all.

@ThePrimeTimeagen

10 ай бұрын

this sounds like a perfect use

I'm professionally a react developer and I freaking love this. I need to build something now with htmx.

@emilz0r

9 ай бұрын

better become a backend dev first, no?

@0ktothorp

9 ай бұрын

I have written backend services in the past. Also, have used Django, so no problem 🤓

@emilz0r

9 ай бұрын

@@0ktothorp cool cool

They could have used hyperscript for the JavaScript parts.

@BrianWisti

10 ай бұрын

First, hyperscript would have still been pretty raw when they were working on that conversion. Heck it's still not 1.x. It's also a pretty big context shift for folks. I used a tiny sprinkling of htmx and hyperscript for a Django project in 2021, and the client devs were so disoriented by the hyperscript that I just swapped it out for plain htmx (which they handled fine) in slightly more complex django-component support code.

Been using HTMX for a while now. It is growing very fast and it’s just getting better

This is exactly how I was taught web development in HS about 12 years ago

We've been reinventing the wheel for years and now we see it's better to go back to the old good days.

I have to admit that, when I watched this on my own, my jaw dropped when the counter updated as he unfavorited one of the articles. Framework brain is strong

Sick video!! Liked and Subbed! 🎉

15:15 "this is your brain. this is your brain on react"

Complexity exists somewhere, here in HTMX the complexity arises inside the attributes. It sure is nice to have no js, but this is not a react replacement.

does this open up security concerns like htmx injection attacks (or whatever the xxs equivalent in htmx is called)?

@Sandromatic

Күн бұрын

Yes, xss is certainly a concern, as it always would be when templating anything user given. Use a sensible templating framework on the backend, and be aware of xss. (Also, obviously, don't use htmx to refer to a backend that you don't control, that can obviously lead to problems.)

Interesting wasn't expecting the html to look like erb files from ruby

What is nice about JS SPAs is that you have very nice separation between the backend apis frontend code, which is nice when you can support mobile with that api. I imagine HTMX also has higher egress usage which is nontrivial at scale.

Tbh, every time he said, "buckets" all I heard was, "baguettes" 😂

I’m going to fire up a deep poc with htmx… I’m intrigued. However, I don’t hate react like it seems a lot of people do, and I’ve made pretty great stuff with it over the years.

Surely the most subtle flex possible.

I'm wondering how htmx handles updating the item when the item is on the 3rd page of scroll load…

@VChu22

10 ай бұрын

Everything that's in the DOM can be updated when the trigger event happens. Anything that's not in the DOM when the event happens will contain updated info when it's loaded from the server, since the event updated the state on the server.

Wouldn't have known about HTMX if I hadn't see this vid

When you say "kind of ok" is 25%, you are using Imperial system. He's from Europe we use metric system here. Kind of ok is 40%

I'm a big fan of pure HTML5 with some jquery components. But hell, I'm going HTMX baby!

Ill come back from backend and devops when frontend becomes fun again, long road to go

CAN YOU MAKE A VIDEO ON “controlled randomness”, and how to think with it and solve real world problems with it like an AB testing situation????

"i don't want to go 1.5 speed. .... " *me turning prime to 2x*

The last time I was offline for more than a week was in the mid 90s. Offline mode? Hahah what's that?

awesome to see htmx getting attention

How is this different from knockout js?

I wish one day Prime said about something of my labor or talk: "It was awesome".

You have two options 1) RESTful HTML ajaxes 2) Javascript server that responds with javascript compiled from some other script that's emulating RESTfullness from the perspective of the developer and then handles the ajaxes.

We had this in Java Server Faces 20 years ago

For me, the best part here is no npm modules, and updating all deps of react/next project and hoping everything will continue to work

This dude sounds like Bill Burr talking about front end development and I fucking love it lmao.

That awkward moment when you realize that React query is just a shared event bus that relies on cached http requests 😂 and now everyone's like "nooooo stop doing state management, just rely on react query"

@ehm-wg8pd

7 ай бұрын

exactly

So instead of updating a central state and having views that show this same state (possibly in many different places of the UI), we do swaps on specific elements in our templates. Sounds so much better... not

Oh man, I’m gonna have Nightmares about Tapestry, JSF, Velocity, JSP, Thymeleaf and aaaaaaalllll the server side templating engines I had to deal with… almost TWENTY YEARS ago. Time is indeed a flat circle… 😂😂😂 … but WTH… let’s give this another chance. Yes yes, I may be eating my socks again but who knows… maybe this time it won’t be so awful 😂😂😎

Loving the simplicity of htmx. It’s good to remember that there are a colossal amount of high value, profitable products built on technology we would consider today as the “wrong way to build”. What wins in the end is the right product.

No link to the original for your babysitter video?

Prime reactions are the bests !

I'm still sceptical about the UX. From a simple loading spinner to a real-time form input validation - so many actions require JavaScript or at least I don't see how it could be done without. Certainly a progressive web app needs to run mainly in the browser.

@TheNewton

9 ай бұрын

This is just an example where most thing are exclusively server side. So offline etc needs for javascript are not even a consideration for such a demo, just the alluring idea of server-side "purity".

I also decided to never touch client side javascript ever again, unless I have to build a web ide.

As far as I know, one of the advantage of a SPA is that you have only one API for all applications (Browser, Android, iOS). But, probably, nowadays we can use a PWA.

@jessejayphotography

10 ай бұрын

Even better, you can have 1 API for HTML(X) website and 1 API for JSON for Android or iOS and they can both focus on what they do best and without polluting each others responsibilities or being compromised by specific design or data requirements.

@IvanRandomDude

10 ай бұрын

@@jessejayphotography Probably don't even need to have different APIs for that. I've seen a project where we had endpoints that generated either partial HTML or JSON based on whether request is AJAX or not. For AJAX requests we were generating JSON and for standard request we were rendering HTML based on templates. It was .NET 4.5 project and used Razor templates. AJAX calls were served with JSON while non-AJAX calls were served partial views. But I guess it is cleaner to separate APIs.

@primosoma

10 ай бұрын

@@jessejayphotography I mean, this is why we want one API, because we don’t want to do the same work twice. We send the same data, the difference is that in one case these data are presented with an html table, in the other case we use some mobile table component. If we have two APIs we have to maintain two APIs and we have to be sure that they behave in the same way, because I want to see the same data in both the browser and the mobile app. But I’m not an expert on this, I might be wrong.

@jessejayphotography

10 ай бұрын

@@primosomaIts not hard at all. /user/{id}/settings -> HTMLX /api/v1/user/{id}/settings -> JSON They both can use the same business logic and database calls underneath to talk to the database and get the data and the controllers for each of these different routes can do whatever they want to transform the data to the API's needs. Like the HTMLX might need to inject CSRF tokens in the form and the JSON routes don't!

@jessejayphotography

10 ай бұрын

@@IvanRandomDudeYes, you can do it that way but I prefer to have the flexibility of separate controllers for the different routes.

Been saying this for years: SPAs where a mistake. Glad I can live to see the day ❤

This proves that MDD is the best pattern of all time. Meme Driven Development

@ThePrimeTimeagen

9 ай бұрын

isn't everything popular a meme at the same time?

How this guy said ¨We don´t have spaguetis code¨, and all i see is spaguetis code ? 😐

@xesf

7 ай бұрын

That template was horrendous!! Not that JSX is better but managing templates like that won't be easy for sure long run. It looks like again people are following into the trap of Frameworks once again and htmx is the same. Going back to plain ES Modules with Web Components when required seems way better with zero dependencies and magic behind the scenes. Like Prime said, having an EventBus helps a lot.

What I'm hearing is "never abstract unless and until you have to", writ large. Ultimately, you want to give the end user an HTML file that looks pretty when they click on it. Everything else is an abstraction off that ideal. Also yes, the French really do just add letters to the end of words. And to the middle of words. And sometimes to the beginning of words. Generally, the last 1-4 letters of any French word are silent. Rendezvous is a fantastic example: there are 11 letters in there, only 7 of them are relevant to the pronunciation (from an English perspective).

@x--.

9 ай бұрын

After you've been down in the mines long enough, knowing the "when" of "until you have to" seems non-trivial.

@mage3690

9 ай бұрын

@@x--. Fr tho. I could printf this, or I could do the same thing with 6 lines of Assembly. Printf seems like a reasonable abstraction and the logical extreme, but is it? At the other end we have React. It seems obvious to say that React is too much abstraction, but at what point does a collection of grains of sand become a heap? Assembly? C? The JVM? JavaScript? React? Where?

@canadiantechprep

6 ай бұрын

In English, rendezvous would require six words: The place where we will meet. Just saying...

@mage3690

6 ай бұрын

@@canadiantechprep "meeting," "meet up," "hang" (slang), "tryst," "rally point." These terms imply location to varying degrees. False argument from laconism.

The reaction to what if js is turned off is everything to me

31:33 You dont have to do that. People just write shitty code. Just like my early projects in python were equally egregious. It's nothing to do with the language and it absolutely is nothing to do with react. The main problem with JS/TS is the dependency hell that is a matter of course. It is a massive cultural problem and probably more to do with most of the people using it not being actual engineers/ developers but rather people that can lego prebuilt pieces together. It is enabled by there being so many options for them that if those pieces dont fit together they can probably find one that does even of its horribly written and could have been written by someone who knows how to code in minutes.

@arjix8738

10 ай бұрын

one great example of this is oracle's apex, it is a lego website building tool the documentation is horrendous and you can only do backend stuff in PL/SQL, their shitty programming language