Arthur Rubinstein's biographer relates an incident that occurred when Reiner clashed with an equally strong personality: they were recording the Tchaikovsky concerto when one of the Chicago wind soloists asked if a passage toward the end of the first movement could be re-recorded, because he thought he could do his part better. When Reiner grumpily acceded, Rubinstein said "if we're going back that far, let's start a little further, because I played a few wrong notes before that." To which Reiner replied, "Well, if we're going to correct all of your wrong notes, we'll be here all day." Rubinstein got up and walked out, which ended both the recording session and their association.

@IvanHernandez-gx4rt

2 жыл бұрын

Dr. Reiner was the boss, no less, no more. A really autocratic person but musicians in Chicago deserved that.

@judsonmusick3177

2 жыл бұрын

Just think of the wonderful recorded collaborations between Rubinstein and Reiner that we have been denied because of that smartass remark from Reiner.

@hwelf11

2 жыл бұрын

@@judsonmusick3177 Yes, but we can be thankful for the Rachmaninoff 2nd, Paganini Rhapsody, and Brahms D Minor that they left us.

@judsonmusick3177

2 жыл бұрын

@@hwelf11 Yes, I have those 3 Rubinstein-Reiner recordings - all great ones. But all of the other stereo concerto recordings Rubinstein made would have been even better if Reiner had been at the orchestral helm.

@judsonmusick3177

2 жыл бұрын

Fritz Reiner's biographer (Philip Hart I think) told a slightly different version of this story. Rubinstein, Reiner and the CSO were recording a concerto - can't remember which one. Rubinstein made a mistake in one passage with the orchestra, and asked to have another go at it. Soloist and orchestra recorded that passage again, but either Rubinstein made the same mistake or made a new mistake. Rubinstein then asked if they could record that passage for a third time. At that point Reiner sarcastically asked if the engineers could record the piano part separately and then superimpose the piano part over the orchestra part because "he is the one making the mistakes, not my orchestra!" Rubinstein then stormed angrily out of the recording session, refusing to work with Reiner ever again - and he kept his word.

Fritz Reiner is definitely one of my favourite conductors and in a number of cases his recordings - at least, in my opinion - have never been surpassed.

When I was in high school, I played violin in the orchestra and we had a conductor come in to rehearse us and lead a concert. This individual performed in the Chicago Symphony under Reiner. Won't name names. Well, during one rehearsal, we were rehearsing La Forza del Destino overture and this conductor said to me, "Would you like to play [this passage] as a solo?" I replied, "No, that's ok." The conductor replied, "Good, because I wouldn't want to hear that!" One of my teachers, who had sat in on the rehearsal said to me afterwards, "you should feel very proud and special about what just happened. Dude, you just got yelled at by someone who played under Fritz Reiner!"

My favorite Reiner story is the one about the bass player who whipped out a telescope to see Reiner's tiny beat.

@markfarrington5183

2 жыл бұрын

...and Reiner was ready for that. He held up a little card on which was written "You're fired."

@jefolson6989

2 жыл бұрын

I learn in these comments it was a rifle scope on a trombone. Famous incident.

IMO one of the best conductors around (20 odd years ago) was an old-school autocratic protege of John Barbirolli, named Patrick Flynn. Patrick was stuck with regional orchestras due to his reputation. But the performances he coaxed from such regional orchestras comprised of mostly pick-up players were brilliant. My violist wife was contracted with one of them for a number of years and, despite feeling intimidated she loved the results. Patrick passed away in 2008.

I talked with a CSO old timer who played under Reiner and Toscanini ( yes, him, a cellist). He said Toscanini's tantrums were explosions, then they were over, but Reiner held the tiniest grudges for years, probably forever. They were never resolved or gotten over, only pushed back by new ones. I do love the precision, which was perfect for the CSO sound at the time. Bartok, Strauss, etc , and surprisingly a great record of Strauss waltzes and polkas! Greatest Fidelio overture ever recorded.

I love your back stage stories of the famous people in classical music. You are the only person I can find online who speaks on this subject. Very important to hear.

I am very much looking forward to the review of the new Mitropoulos box.

Gunther Schuller told of playing French Horn in the Metropolitan Opera orchestra under Reiner. At one rehearsal, Reiner scolded Gunther for a mistake "as if this is your first time playing Der Rosenkavalier." Gunther, who was probably still in his teens, replied "But this *is* my first time." Everyone went dead silent, terrified of what Reiner would happen next. Reiner smiled and said: "How wonderful! To be playing Der Rosenkavalier for the first time!"

@GVZGQosqoruna

Жыл бұрын

Beautiful!

Excellent overview and wonderful selections. Extraordinary musician. It seems to me that he never made a really bad recording!

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

I agree.

@user-tv3bu9jd3v

7 ай бұрын

His Pathetique is pretty cold.

Everyone loves conductor stories (they may even be true) and I heard one about Reiner and Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. Reiner was auditioning a new percussion player, and one of the audition pieces was the famous side drum solo (like in the Szell story),. A young man, a recent Julliard grad, came out and played it using one hand. Reiner says drummers "always play it with two hands, why are using one?" The fellow replies his teacher, the distinguished Saul Goodman of the NY Phil, said it's best to play it with one stick, it's more precise and you can get good rhythm and a good even diminuendo and...Reiner cuts him off with a harrumph and dismissively says all the players he's known use two hands. The next applicant arrives, and plays the same drum solo using two hands. "I see you're playing this with two hands," says Reiner. "What's the matter? Can't you play it with one?"

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

It should always be played with one hand for the reasons mentioned above.

@daviddavenport9350

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I had a way of playing the accents only with the left hand and the body of the passage with the right hand.....

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

@@daviddavenport9350 You cheated! Really, if it sounds right, it doesn't matter, does it?

I'm bingeing on Dave videos. A real pleasure to listen and learn. Thank you, sir.

One of the Chicago musicians said, " Not much of a conductor, but a really nice guy".

There is another story told about Reiner when an orchestra musician was asked what it was like to play under him. " NOT MUCH OF A CONDUCTOR BUT AN AWFULLY NICE GUY!!"

The legend as told by Bud Herseth himself goes Reiner went back 4 or 5 times in the passage immediately before C to C octave leap each time telling Herseth he wanted to correct something in the winds. Reiner asked Herseth if they could do it once more to which Herseth looked at his watch and said "I'm here till 12:30". Herseth knew it was his time "in the barrel" as the musicians called it. Reiner was much nicer off the podium.

@richs4703

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks for this corrected version of the Herseth "Zarathustra" story. Reiner actually did respect musicians who would not fold under pressure, and who could even "crack wise" with him within reason. As Bud himself used to say - "you gotta know how to stand up to them, but you can't just be a total wise-ass."

On the night Reiner died, his former Pittsburgh Symphony players were tootling in the green room, before the concert. An announcement was made: "Gentlemen, sadly, Dr. Reiner passed away in New York today." One of the Reiner veterans shook his head and muttered, "It's not enough."

@dennischiapello3879

2 жыл бұрын

That's great! 😆

With regard to George Cleve, way back in the fall of 1979 the San Jose Symphony, in conjunction with the (now defunct) California Actors Theatre, presented a full-blown production of Shakespeare’s MIDSUMMER NIGHT’S DREAM accompanied by Mendelssohn’s complete score. Maestro Cleve was the conductor. I played Demetrius in that production and I remember Cleve as being really more of a perfectionist than a martinet. That said, my most prominent memory of the man is how, after the closing night party, he made an ill-concealed sexual offer to the lovely wife of CAT’s artistic director. When she politely demurred, Cleve threw his empty champagne glass against the side of a building and wandered off into the night. R.I.P. Maestro!

Same goes for the teaching (university and school) profession - those teachers who terrorized their students into learning, no longer exist. They would get the sack! Society shifted...(but not all of the old conductors were savage. Musicians loved Bruno Walter for his kindness and understanding.)

@samuelheddle

2 жыл бұрын

Monteux was also more or less beloved. I think we just have a sort of romantic image of the conductor autocrat, maybe courtesy of Toscanini's popularity.

@richardfrankel6102

2 жыл бұрын

@@pablov1973 This is a true story, related by Monteux himself. The orchestra didn't really know the piece, which was scheduled for Toscanini's first concert, and they were afraid to play the work for the Maestro unprepared. Monteux worked with them on the piece for three hours, and later said, "When I left them, I assure you they knew it. The men thanked me profusely, but I have yet to receive any thanks from the National Broadcasting Company. C'est la vie, hein?"

I heard Herseth tell that very story himself on WFMT in Chicago. Reiner kept coming up with reasons to have the orchestra and Herseth keep repeating that passage. At one point Reiner suggested doing it yet again, and Herseth, knowing what Reiner was up to, responded by saying confidently, sure he had all day.

Such an interesting subject! And, of course, that autocracy has been in many presentational arts; in ballet and theater, the 'my way or the highway' behavior has been legion enough to be immortalized as a stereotype (i.e. The Red Shoes). Interesting that such single-minded tyranny can produce greatness, as it is ironic that greater 'democracy' can sometimes provide lesser art. It is that dash of a 'genius' and special personality that helps the oligarchic conductor to achieve results above the teeming masses of artistically lesser souls! Such dictatorships were also not always so in early orchestra days, when many were only extant because of Princely patronage and Princely control. There is the story of Wagner in 1840's Dresden; he WAS Royal Kapellmeister, but still unable to hire or fire or retire his players. There were apparently some old or sick players, and some who were simply poor players in those days of variable quality instrumentalists. They refused to leave, and Wagner then had no power to make them. So, as you imply can happen, the play of this less 'autocratically' run band was somewhat lacking. Apparently, Spontini was a visiting conductor once. After a few minutes of a rehearsal, he stopped the orchestra, turned a baleful eye toward some players, and said: "Are the viola's dying?" There is our Proto-Reiner Et al !?

@RatPfink66

9 ай бұрын

> Interesting that such single-minded tyranny can produce greatness, as it is ironic that greater 'democracy' can sometimes provide lesser art. It is that dash of a 'genius' and special personality that helps the oligarchic conductor to achieve results above the teeming masses of artistically lesser souls! It is best not questioned, analyzed, or unpacked. Leaving behind genius or personality, excellence as a habit is jealous, unforgiving, and ultimately itself autocratic.

A great little Talk. Thx, Dave. Expanding it, I'm very keen on rehearsal footage of these emigrated to USA conductors. Especially dvds like The Art Of Conducting. I've separate dvds on Walter, Szell, Bernstein and Solti. But have for decades been hungry for more. Old newsreel footage was once recommended to me. Anyone know of other source materials...?

For those of us of more advanced age, a rite of musical and audio passage were the two Reiner/Chicago/RCA Living Stereo LP recordings of Strauss' Also sprach Zarathustra. In hindsight, I would not place either in Dave's Top10 but I can not think about Reiner without recalling what a big deal they were at the time of their release and the argument over which recording/performance was the better.

How I heard the Herseth story, was when Reiner asked Herseth if he would do it again, for the 5th or 6th time, Herseth said "I can do this for longer than you can, Fritz."

@user-tv3bu9jd3v

7 ай бұрын

He said "I'm here until 12:30". Then he left him alone.

@adrianleverkuehn9832

Ай бұрын

Yes, Arnold Jacobs, who was a few yards from Herseth, told me the "12:30" version.

The Herseth quote I heard (from one of his students who's a good friend of mine) is, "That's okay, Doc, I can do it all day long." My friend also told me that when Reiner tested musicians, they either got fired - or got raises. Herseth got a nice raise.

@jefolson6989

2 жыл бұрын

That quote sounds just like Bud Herseth! Trumpet for the CSO was his first and only job!

The story you relate about bud herseth playing the excerpt from also sprach z is corroborated by my brother’s trumpet teacher, who played in the Chicago symphony at the time and witnessed the affair as it unfolded. Reiner was most certainly a tyrant, but was beyond a doubt the greatest Chicago sym conductor, greater than Solti (who some consider the best) and certainly better than Barenboim, the furtwangler wanna be.

I know you assume viewers know, Dave, but in fairness to HvK (who’s no idol of mine), the old man supported Sabine Meyer. Some might suppose otherwise.

Thanks, David, for a corrective to the insidious (and still popular) myth that great geniuses work their miracles through their worst personal failings. An autocratic style is one thing. Being a task master and nit-picker can be instrumental, and a case can be made that hiring and firing players at will might clear some roadblocks. But displays of disrespect and abusive behavior are OBSTACLES that the musicians CHOOSE to rise above-and the genius in the podium should be humbled (and abashed, really) by their magnanimity. Recordings of Toscanini’s rants are worse than embarrassing to hear. He sounds nothing so much as infantile-which is not a word that characterizes the personal morals and integrity he displayed during the war years, I want to acknowledge.

@jensguldalrasmussen6446

2 жыл бұрын

I read somewhere, that many musicians didn't take so much offence by Toscannini's temper tantrums (from which one can't imply, that they didn't mind being at the end of the stick). They acknowledged, that he was at least as servere towards himself as towards them as musicians - stories to illustrate this point are legion: once Toscanini out of frustration during a rehearsal, that didn't proceed as he wished, grasped his pocket watch, threw it to the ground, and stomped fiercely upon it. At another rehearsal, he was so dissatisfied with his own contribution, that he scratched his face so forcefully, that his face became a bloody mess. He had to call an intermission to get his face properly treated. Eduard van Beinum is an example of an older conductor from the other end of the contiuum. An undoubtedly great, though sometimes underrated, if at all remembered conductor. He treated his musicians with respect - saw them as fellow musicians. And I for my part can't find any faults, though lots of pleasure in his recordings.

@dennischiapello3879

2 жыл бұрын

@@jensguldalrasmussen6446 I never heard the face-scratching story before. If it's true that Toscanini could work himself into a public display of physical self-harm, that is very disturbed behavior. Sometimes that provides a distancing effect: the musicians perhaps didn't take the rants personally if they were similarly bizarre. Total speculation on my part!

It is the issue of seperating art and artist. Thankfully as listeners we didnt have to work with him. Ugh what a character. I did purchase the reiner pso recordings and had digi5al copies of rhe rca cso era . With the fritz reiner cso Milestones of a Legendary Conductor 10 cd box set its a very nice companion piece. And well priced .

Great talk, thank you. I'd love for you to do a talk about Riccardo Muti and the Chicago Symphony!

I think you have addressed this elsewhere....have you noticed that the "technical" excellence among orchestras has largely evened out amongst the world's orchestras? What we call Second and even Third line orchestras can produce first rate results...very accurate and very musical....this didnt happen as much in the 50s, 60s, or even 70s

I wonder if the story of a musician bringing binoculars or a telescope to a rehearsal , making fun of Reiners tiny beat , is true. It makes for a great story, but I can't believe anyone would have the courage. Some versions have the poor fellow fired on the spot.

@richs4703

2 жыл бұрын

It has been corroborated. It was a bass player. He has been named. Back story. He knew his contract would not be renewed so he decided to go out in an act of rank insubordination. Reiner - what are you doing? Bass player - tryin' to find yer beat. Reiner pulling a small note pad out of his vest and writing in it holds it up in the bass player's direction - can you read this? The note - You're fired. The bass player went on to become an orchestra manager.

Don't forget Solti. His nickname was the screaming skull.

@richs4703

2 жыл бұрын

According a highly regarded source, the "skull" never screamed at the CSO aside for a single occasion at a player who disregarded an instruction. Solti knew what he had and respected it enormously.

I was wondering, Dave. Which guy was the meanest and cruelest - Fritz Reiner or George Szell?

@markfarrington5183

2 жыл бұрын

Both were extremely tough, but Szell wasn't a sadist.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

That's true. Szell was intimidating and obsessive, but I never heard that he enjoyed being cruel. Reiner supposedly tortured his players.

@corgansow7176

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide There was a very amusing story about Szell torturing the percussion section during rehearsal of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. The second movement had a opening snare drum solo and Szell kept fussing to the player to switch different sticks and adjust the timbre of the snare so much until the same guy had to see a shrink. So another guy replaced him and he told Szell he would not play the passage until Szell quit fussing around. The maestro agreed then the rehearsal went well. Except on the concert day, if you remember the passage in the second mvt asks for a mf, that same guy let it rip instead leaving the whole orchestra in shock.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

@@corgansow7176 It's a well known story, and he didn't leave the orchestra in shock. He left Szell in shock, but Szell kept his promise to say nothing about it. The other guy was the timpanist, BTW.

Bud Herseth is a legend! RIP

- Gentlemen, be democrats in life but aristocrats in art. (Toscanini)

This is barely on-topic because such a video would probably include Reiner: I was wondering if you could do a best recordings of Brahms's 4th video.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

I will get there.

Dave, Fritz Reiner and George Szell thought very little of the conducting skills of fellow Hungarian Eugene Ormandy. Do you know why?

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Jealousy.

Reiner was an amazing conductor for sure, and/or a horses' ass, depending on your perspective. One of my teachers was taught by one of the bassoonists of Chicago when Reiner was there. He said he never knew from rehearsal to rehearsal whether he would need pepto bismal or a vodka afterwards! I also have that Reiner box- it is incredible. One box set I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on is the Mitropoulos box that was recently released. Hopefully you'll be able to work that in sometime.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Working on it now.

Dave, Reiner used an extremely small beat pattern. Do you know why?

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

It's sometimes thought that the smaller the beat, the more it forces the musicians to focus in order to see it, but I suspect it was just his style.

@richs4703

2 жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide See the VAI video that features a program of Reiner conducting Bach: Toccata, Adagio, and Fugue orchestrated by Leo Weiner. In this you will see it revealed that Fritz's tiny beat was only one tool in his kit which involved a variety of patterns ranging from miniature and reserved to flamboyant and expressive. He ran the gamut, but was always extremely precise.

There's a distinction between being a strong leader, who is authoritative, and has standards vs. someone who is just an asshole.

@DavesClassicalGuide

2 жыл бұрын

Or maybe is a combination of both.

One of the most infuriating things I ever heard, was a quote from Georg Solti. I believe it’s actually in his memoir. I paraphrase it here: “when I took over the Chicago symphony it was a good REGIONAL orchestra. I made it into a world class orchestra.” Such total idiocy.

@fastfocusedresumeservice6580

Ай бұрын

It is widely thought that the CSO declined somewhat from Reiner's level under his immediate successor Martinon.

The late Harold Schonberg wrote about an incident involving Reiner and the New York Philharmonic. They were rehearsing "Pictures at an Exhibition" and Reiner passed some scathing comments about their playing. During a break, some members of the orchestra plotted to try and "throw" Reiner by not following his rhythm. When it happened, Reiner knew immediately what was going on, and his baton movement (which was never big to begin with) "became absolutely miniscule" in the words one of the conspirators. "We HAD to follow him." Fritz Reiner was probably the most dependable conductor of the 20th Century, given that he always made a great recording.

I think Fritzy did the autocrat thing better than any of his contemporaries, mostly because he didn't use it to toy with the audience and promote himself so blatantly. To that, you must know who I'm talking about specifically, and how annoying I find their interpretations.

Barenboim is supposed to be brutal.

Andre Previn found out the old adage: "Don't mess with Texas", while conducting the Houston Symphony. He was so arrogant toward the musicians I don't believe he was ever invited back as a guest conducted.

@LyleFrancisDelp

2 жыл бұрын

First of all….”Don’t Mess With Texas” was an anti-litter campaign slogan, not a statement of arrogance. Second of all, Previn spent time as music director in Houston, not just a guest conductor. His tenure was shortened due to the conservative old ladies on the board having issues with his playboy lifestyle and shacking up with Mia Farrow.

@henrywhite7321

2 жыл бұрын

Damn you're good! I should've said don't mess with Hurwitz.

@LyleFrancisDelp

2 жыл бұрын

@@henrywhite7321 LOL!!! 🤣

@jefolson6989

2 жыл бұрын

@@LyleFrancisDelp just doesn't sound like Previn. He was firm, but polite. Or maybe the LSO , famously tough on conductors, changed his approach. And he mellowed with age. There was no arrogance in the cherubic( or gnome-like) jollly little fellow of his final years.

@LyleFrancisDelp

2 жыл бұрын

@@jefolson6989 I’m not the one who said he was arrogant. As far as I remember, as a former Houstonian, he spent time as music director/conductor, but left due to reasons I’ve stated. I believe he followed Barbirolli as MD and preceded Lawrence Foster.

What *I* hear in a Reiner recording is fear, and very little else. There have been many autocratic conductors, and I played with a few, but Rainer was simply mean, for the sake of being mean.