I love the sound of retired former navy Captain Bill Toti’s full intro in the morning.

@helenel4126

3 ай бұрын

I hope we have dudes like him in our Navy now!

@christianlim772

3 ай бұрын

It sounds like victory….

@user-xt1xb6gt2v

3 ай бұрын

Can we find a way to make the phrase "The full Bill Toti" as fun to use as "the full monty"?

@michaelwaldmeier1601

3 ай бұрын

Both Bill and Seth!@@helenel4126

@michaelwaldmeier1601

3 ай бұрын

I can only imagine what both of you would have thought if you had been in the Pacific during this time and knew the truth.

Another brilliant episode! As an Australian I detest Macarthur for his blatant lies about the effectiveness, and contribution of Australian forces during the New Guinea campaign, as a retired Naval Officer I further detest Macarthur for his lies and false attacks on the heroic efforts of the USN and USMC and finally as a student of history I hold a seething hatred of Macarthur for all the times his tactical incompetance and vanity based strategic planning cost the lives of thousands of allied soldiers, sailors, marines and even greater numbers of innocent civilians across the PTO, especially Phillipinos. As always Seth and Bill thanks for your incredible work!

@saoirseewing4877

3 ай бұрын

When I was living in Australia in the early 80s, MacArthur's routine denigration of Australian successes as "mopping up" was *very* much living history and it wasn't hard to find people who had felt personally insulted on behalf of either themselves or their loved ones. The man had an absolute gift for devaluing the importance of the victories won by the blood of anybody not in his cult and may well be the single "Ugliest American" the US has ever exported. As a tween, I suspected he would get Australia's vote.

@craigmorrice6032

3 ай бұрын

As an Australian i totally agree with you.

@ganndeber1621

3 ай бұрын

Not a fan of Mc Arthur then?

@Jakal-pw8yq

3 ай бұрын

Agreed!

@tonybanke3560

3 ай бұрын

Yes!!!!!!

I have been watching your series from the beginning. I Have only 1 problem, Considering yourselves as unauthorized does undermine the ability to impart a complete and insightful commetary of the pacific campaigns of World War II. I feel that each episode is a thieses quality product to be cherised by all who value history Thank you for your huge labors.

@ddvd

3 ай бұрын

Well said!

@richardbennett1856

3 ай бұрын

The most important consideration was political, so it's the PI. Formosa would cut the life blood of Japan, strategically the clear choice. Perhaps if King was in Honolulu to debate Dumbass Doug, the proper course of the Pacific War would be accelerated.

@giantgeoff

3 ай бұрын

I take the "Unauthorized" as Tongue in Cheek in Extremis. They base their exposition on solid documentation or materials themselves that have solid foundations.

@christopherslaughter2263

3 ай бұрын

The unauthorized part is what I like about this podcast

@tonybanke3560

3 ай бұрын

I totally agree. Their the best!!!

This is such an excellent series/podcast. So much in depth conversation and enlightenment. Even today, I had no idea of the dealing of Mac and FDR. He was an egomaniac and kind of an ass as well. He tried the same “one-ups-manship” on Truman and got fired. Seth and Capt.Bill are doing an outstanding job with this series.

@flparkermdpc

3 ай бұрын

Agreed. And with such gentlemanly discourse.Very little talking over one another because of the smooth handoffs back and forth. Although Bill gets a little tong tied when his blood gets a bit up when he's getting angry and words are inadequate. He's a genuine Italian on a stallion in those moments.!!

My father was a naval aviator in WW2. He said the navy despised Mac. Once, when dad went on leave, he went to his parent's farm, and in the kitchen was a portrait of Mac. It was so disheartening for him.

@oceanhome2023

3 ай бұрын

Cool observation. I was a navy brat living with my Father in post war Japan in 1958 . We had a Japanese house cleaner , nice woman , one time I watched her pulling her wallet out of her purse and it accidentally flipped open and displayed a picture of the Emperor she knew that I saw it became she saw my eye brows raised and held it open for me to see and then she showed me the picture on back and that was Mac ! So I asked her why she also had a picture of Mac and she said that “Because he brought Peace to our country AND because he gave the Japanese Women the right to vote ! I also saw a billboard in Yokoska that said Mac for President LOL !!

@sneakerset

3 ай бұрын

Was that the photo of MacArthur and Hirohito side by side in his office ? The Japanese elders frowned on the size disparity between the two of them.

@sailordude2094

3 ай бұрын

Army vs Navy thing.

@flparkermdpc

3 ай бұрын

​​@@oceanhome2023MacArthur got the reverence and worship that he so coveted in this life from the Japanese people, who were liberated as much by the USA victors as were the people the Japanese had been abusing for 4 or 5 years under their boots. The US policies under the Marshall plan were historic in the annals of human history. ❤ The outcomes of the rehabilitation of people from the depths of wartime deprivation and death all around, is right out of Matthew Chapter 5. "Love your enemies" It works. We are living with the results of hate filled decades after the US Civil War, and the assassination of President Lincoln which denied the USA the only person whose leadership and heart could have stopped the people who plundered the South and took advantage of the emancipated but helpless slaves. His Marshall Plan for the South would have healed the country. Instead...we got the usual Hatfield and McCoy residual of a bitter family fight. Still goin' on.

My Father was a Navy Corpsman in the Pacific. He hated Mac and refused to say the name of the local airport named after him. He also refused to keep any FDR dimes. I was allowed to have any that he had as change when he came home from work. These dimes paid for many model ship & aircraft kits.

Always look forward to Tuesday mornings, Gentlemen! Thank you!

@bcvanrijswijk

3 ай бұрын

Tuesday has become my favourite day of the week.

Bill and Seth at their very best! They excel when it comes to these "grand strategy" discussions. In this episode they seamlessly interweave the military situation on the ground, the overwhelming advantages of the US forces by 1944, the geopolitics with the critical aspect, in this case, of the domestic politics. It's a salient reminder that whatever bipartisan goodwill there may have been after Pearl, the return to vicious partisan politics has come back by mid 1944. The war will clearly be won in both Europe and the Pacific, so normal service is being resumed. Excellent stuff.

Given MacArthur’s ego and desire for power/authority, one has to wonder whether Eisenhower’s decision to run for President in 1952 was not motivated, at least in part, by his feeling that his former boss, MacArthur, should NEVER hold office?

@wilsonj4705

3 ай бұрын

I've always thought it would have been poetic justice for Eisenhower, a general Mac considered beneath him, to have fired Mac during Korea. I bet that would have infuriated Mac more than Truman doing it. But unfortunately for that the timing was wrong

@sulevisydanmaa9981

3 ай бұрын

@brianhoover2294 HEAVEN KNOWS, Mr ALLISON . .(=The P-40 engine developer ? ...). C O N j e c t u r e - anywayzzz .. & alwayZZZZZ

@MadLudwig

3 ай бұрын

Eisenhower was no less ambitious than MacArthur. He was just extremely smart about how he used influence and power through quieter and more subtle means.

@sulevisydanmaa9981

3 ай бұрын

@@MadLudwig ...SUCH AS the MIC warning ... + "The Other Losses" + the ET conehead conference @ Hollimon, 55, the "disupkeep" of Mr Devers ☆☆☆☆ ; Patton s fate ....

It’s hilarious to me that while King and Mac are bitterly arguing about the Phillipines vs. Formosa, Spruance is in a back room looking at an actual map and putting plans together for Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

@musc1esman

3 ай бұрын

Spruance was the man.

Guys,the fact is the allies would have an advantage during and thru out the invasion by having thousands of phillipine gurillas joining the fight.Also, the U.S had thousands of troops and civilian inturnees imprisoned on the island.The U.S. had an obligation to free those who were living under hellish conditions as soon as possible.Just my humble thoughts guys.

@kensvay4561

3 ай бұрын

Australian POWs were abandoned by MacArthur. 2000 died on Borneo in the Rinau to Sandakan death march. There was an Australian plan to free them before the March but MacArthur vetoed it.

@chrisk7118

3 ай бұрын

@@kensvay4561 Philippines was ultimately more important.

@markpaul-ym5wg

3 ай бұрын

@@kensvay4561 Sad but true.

Still another home run hit by Bill and Seth in this Pacific War series. Until now, I never understood why Taiwan was abandoned as an objective by the JCS in 1944. Another fantastic presentation.

The Baltimore was my dad’s ship. He boarded the ship on the Baltimore’s return journey back to the “Big Blue Fleet.” He was 17 at the time. Great podcast gentlemen!

I wonder how the future for Formosa/Taiwan and China would have been changed if the US had gone to Formosa.

@xflyingtiger

3 ай бұрын

My thought exactly.

@rmwoodjr

3 ай бұрын

You optimistically presume an Allied victory. Consider as well a defeat.

@kimmoj2570

3 ай бұрын

@@rmwoodjr Allied never from August 1942 till 1945 Okinawa never failed to take island. Formosa would be no different.

@shoofly529

2 ай бұрын

Mao stated that the reason he was able to come to power was due to the Japanese invading China & the Nationalists spliting their fighting between the Japanese & the Communists. (Oddly similar to how Lenin & the Bolsheviks came to power during WWI.) Taking Mao at his word means Imperial Japan is the reason for a Communist China. Lastly Spruance's idea of an Iwo invasion in Nov. '44 was worthy of serious discussion.

Franklin Roosevelt was always wary of MacArthur and his political aspirations. Ten years before the subject of this podcast in 1932 Roosevelt was commenting on the populist Huey Long, calling him “one of the two most dangerous men in America.” He then said “The other one is Douglas MacArthur.”

@markpaul-ym5wg

3 ай бұрын

Chris,in my mind I think Franklin had something to do with his death.Huey Long was the most popular politican at the time of his death,and said in public that he was going to be the next president.

Thanks Guys. Because I can.

Sorry guys, BUT, Liberating the Philippines was the best choice, I'm an old Navy man, My father was in the Sea battles around Salvo Island and we had a low opinion of Dug out Doug. I fact they would have had to have Luzon to capture Formosa.

@vladimirpecherskiy1910

3 ай бұрын

And why do we need Philippines or Formosa?

Another great episode, as always. Iwo Jima in 1944 may well have been the best option. Not fan of Mac, but Formosa was not the best option for all the things you said, albeit that it was in a better strategic location, when compared to Luzon. The one thing that perhaps you didn’t go into, which was of importance, was the terrain of Formosa. That would have been, without a doubt, the most difficult of the Pacific war. An island about 400km in length and 150km wide at its widest point, with a spine of mountains running down the island where more than 200 peaks are above 3000m in elevation, and the highest point is 3952m. Climatic zones from tropical up to alpine tundra. The east coast is mountainous with no real landing options, and the west coast has huge tidal mudflats with few suitable landing beaches. As you said, Formosa/Taiwan had been colonized by Japan in 1895, so 49 years already by 1944. The population had been mobilized for war service. This was a hostile civilian population, probably not quite as hostile as native Japanese, but certainly far from friendly. An invading force would have to fight the indigenous tribes in the interior, which would equate to fighting the Takasago on their home turf. Teruo Nakamura, the last holdout to surrender in December 1974 was a Formosan Takasago. A campaign on Formosa likely would have become bogged down very quickly, and may well have dragged on for a year or more.

@markpaul-ym5wg

3 ай бұрын

Thank you for that great analysis about Foromsa.Certainly,things to consider before planning an attack.😊

@mpetersen6

3 ай бұрын

One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover. After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.

@mpetersen6

3 ай бұрын

One thing to consider when talking as armchair strategists regarding WWll. The availability of landing craft and troop transports when planning amphibious operations. The numbers of Higgens boats, Amtrak's, LSMs, LSTs, LSM(R)s and troop transports was not unlimited. The same applies to Naval fire support and air cover. After Overlord a large part of the vessels devoted to the amphibious operation then had to be dispatched to the Mediterranean for Operation Dragoon in Southern France. Then a large part of that had to head west for Leyte. The landing operations in the Philippines were as large or larger than Overlord or Dragoon.

@ppumpkin3282

3 ай бұрын

It's hard for me to assess which was the best option not knowing all the logistical issues. If the Phllipines were the jumping off point for an invasion of Japan, why did we go to Okinowa and Iwo, why not straight in from the Philipines? If we had to launch a massive invasion of Japan from Iwo, or Okinowa were there sufficient harbors, runways? etc. If we launched an invasion from Iwo or Okinowa wouldn't we have to worry about Japanese airfields on Formosa and the Philipines? Unlike the English Channel which is only twenty miles, the Japanese would have been able to see an invasion fleet to Japan coming from miles away and have time to mass defenses - so the closer the better. But if Iwo and Okinowa were where we would launch the invasion from why was Formosa or the Philipines even an issue. Also I think it may have been reasonably predictable given what we had experienced so far, that massive collateral damage in Manila and else where was to be expected if we invaded there.

@kimmoj2570

3 ай бұрын

I agree that bypassing Formosa would be best option. But disagree strongly that Formosan/Taiwanese oeople would be hostile to allies. People living there are Chinese who suffered under Japanese imperialism.

This Formosan😅 terrain was like Italy...with no Italians. It would have been a ridiculous situation, and murderous beyond any expectations, and probably the tolerance of American mothers.

MacArthur's war record is spotty at best. Some good and definitely some bad. However, his role as Supreme Commander in rehabilitating Japan after the war was remarkable. He remains a hero in Japan and South Korea, So his record is quite complex and it's worth understanding the man in his totality.

@kensvay4561

3 ай бұрын

True. He excelled in Tokyo.

@philiplangford9434

3 ай бұрын

Just to add to your comments, MacArthur was the driving force behind the invasion of Inchon and the defeat of NKA forces in South Korea. He certainly made his share of mistakes, but it would be disingenuous to not give credit where it is due.

@mpetersen6

3 ай бұрын

Definitely a flawed but brilliant individual. As Capt Toti has said in other podcasts "always the smartest man in the room". In reality sometimes he was. And sometimes he wasn't. IMO his two biggest flaws were self promotion. And surrounding himself with sycophants as staff officers. His war record in the Southwest Pacific definitely has its low points. Starting with Buna Gona. The Australian troops under his command performed well. The US formations initially did poorly. The Australians had been seeing action driving the Japanese back across the Owen Stanley's for months previously. The 32nd ID was thrown in untrained and physically out of condition. Whatever their training state when they arrived at Ft Devens outside of Boston in early 1942 for shipment to the UK the next months would see them back on trains to San Francisco. Board ship for Australia. Once in Australia prepare fresh camps, move. Several times. Before the first units were shipped to Port Moresby. By the time Buna was over the 32nd would set several firsts. The first US division shipped overseas in a single convoy during WWll. While being one of the first US divisions shipped overseas. One of its infantry regiments being the first deployed to an active combat zone by air. And by the time the war ended it would see more days in combat than any other US division during WWll. It was still engaged in combat operations after the Japanese capitulated on August 14th, 1945. And then the 32nd instead of going home was sent to Japan on occupation duty. Aside from the official division history one of the best sources on them is Ghost Mountain Boys. One of the books in the reading list. I reccomend the audio version as it really puts the emotion into the personal letters included in the book.

@willl7780

3 ай бұрын

​@@philiplangford9434he was awful in korea...got a lot of people killed

@whodat7523

3 ай бұрын

Actually go learn what MacArthur did before WW2 while he was in Japan and the Philippines- then you'll truly understand why he was a great man in most people's eyes back then and remains so in that part of the world even now. He may have let himself get a bit carried away for the camera and press, but in reality, away from the camera, he very much was a very bright and good man, wouldn't have gotten where he did if he wasnt.

Set and Bill, both of you have talked about both MacArthur and Nimitz. It seems to me that Nimitz grew as the war went on, while MacArthur was to an extent left behind by the war. He had his moments, but I wonder if another officer might have been a better choice. Hindsight is 20/20, so we will never know. Great show as always.

Best WW2 history channel ever!

@ganndeber1621

3 ай бұрын

Absolutely

First let me say that I was so glad to have discovered your podcasts. I look forward to them every week, I enjoy listening while driving for work. I realize that you still have many episodes to do before reaching the end of the pacific war but I do have a suggestion for an episode after the pacific war is completed. It would be interesting to hear your take on how MacArthur was finally held accountable for his ego driven screwups in Korea. It seems to me that Truman was not as forgiving as Roosevelt was towards MacArthur. My grandfather was stationed in Japan with the 1st Cav before the Korean War and was with them all the way to the Yalu. When the Chinese came in he was trapped behind the lines for 4 days. To me this was just the final example of MacArthur's screwups going back to his gross negligence starting before December 7th. Keep up the good work.

Bill's 'What if' on China brings to mind a 'What if' I have been having regarding Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. What if we had cultivated Russia to become working partners instead of what we, the West did. I think it very possible that Ukraine would be neutral, whole and not suffering the casualties she has suffered.

@vladimirpecherskiy1910

3 ай бұрын

Well, I do not think "we the West" did any really. I do not think what is going on with Russia had any relation to what "West" did or did not do. And I know something about it.😄

@jeremyperala839

3 ай бұрын

The wicked witch of the swamp, Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland is gone. Our policy concerning Russia was developed mostly by her over the last decade. If there is karma, she will expire in a very slow painful way.

@vladimirpecherskiy1910

3 ай бұрын

@@jwingo7257And what exactly we can do about it? And with soviet army in north China? Do "Korean war" in China? In country with then population like 500 million?

@jliller

Ай бұрын

Stalin's paranoia was going to interfere with any attempt at peaceful relations post-WW2. And considering the USA already had one Red Scare after WW1 and there was real Soviet spies in the atomic bomb program even before WW2 ended I really don't think lasting peace, harmony, and partnership between the two sides was ever really possible by 1945.

After the end of the first day of the conference, FDR asked for an aspirin because "No one had spoken to me the way MacArthur did today." As part of the research for his 3 part series on the Pacific War, Ian Toll was able to obtain the diary of Robert C. Richardson, who was the commanding general of Army forces in Hawaii and who hosted MacArthur during the conference. MacArthur debriefed him extensively after the meetings. That diary reveals a very different story on this conference than MacArthur documented in his memoirs.

@WestCoastBrit

3 ай бұрын

Toll's trilogy is excellent on this period.

The Philippines are my first memories, I know the look, the smells all the way from 1968. Been to Bataan, Corregidor, Death March… Jeepneys, Nipa huts, carabao, stinky balut 😂

@johnmarlin4661

3 ай бұрын

YOU forgot San Miguel Beer !..

@richardmardis2492

3 ай бұрын

@@johnmarlin4661 I was just a kid back then🤣

@kensvay4561

3 ай бұрын

I hated the Phillipines. But I have worked with many Filipinos and like them. Perhaps the better ones emigrate to work.

This was an excellent episode. Loved the infighting between King and MacArthur. I especially enjoyed learning just how big Mac's ego was, making the President of the United States wait. Rude, disrespectful but full of himself. The segment about the arguments presented by King, MacArthur, Spruance and others as which target the United States would attack, Formosa or the Philippines was very insightful. But I was especially intrigued to learn from your research how Spruance wanted to go straight to Iwo. I never knew that. But listening to this episode, going to Iwo would have been daring. An island too far? Probably not, but would it have shortened the war? Probably not. It is true that if the United States took Iwo in mid-1944 it would have given the newly minted B29s a base to hit Japan, but Invading Iwo Jima would not have hastened the development of the atomic bomb. In addition, Japan in mid to late 1944 was not yet at the precipice of mass starvation nor on the verge of disruption of its political system as it would find itself in late 1945. A lot to learn from this episode, gentlemen. Thank you.

I’m very impressed with the pod cast. Gives a whole new view of this theatre

Putting all this together in one episode was great, much has been referred to at one time or another, but all together is very nice. TY

I took later sleepers this morning and did not get up at 4:00 AM. Excellent work on the topic. If everyone had looked in detail at what Spruance was pushing, we could have Hail Stoned Pelieu and by-passed the remainders with very few costs and instead hit Iwo before they were dug in...a lot of good men died in the Pacific for egos.

Need an episode on the supply chain in the Pacific theater. Somebody had to keep the armed forces supplied.

@pakers2128

2 ай бұрын

I remember reading towards the end of the war the shipboard Navy in that Theatre were on TWO A DAY rations.

Got to re-watch again today and picked up even more detail. You are doing a great service, God Bless.

I really appreciate your doing these videos. As a history buff, I find it quite interesting. You've don't a great job of clearing up questions I've always wondered about.

great video gentlemens, the depth of your analysis is astonishing and the naval expertise brought by Bill really help understand the impact and reasoning behind the plans made at that time

Thank you Bill and Seth.

Fascinating episode. It’s one I’m sure to replay several times

You guys are the best! Always over-delivering! Your work is so crucial to our Nation, and the allies of our Nation, past, present, and future! Thanks again!

Superb episode as usual. Enjoyed it very much, and thanks for all your efforts guys.

I love this episode. I’ve rewatched several times. Seth and Bill and Bill are at their spellbinding best!

Oh my! What a delightful, insightful, and exceptionally informative episode. Thank you, gents. :)

This episode reminds me of how dangerous men who are driven by ego can be for the course of a nation. I think this lesson should be front and center this year as we face other important decisions

@flparkermdpc

3 ай бұрын

"You can say that again!" My Dad 's way of underlining a point!

I forgot today was Tuesday!! But I woke up to an absolutely brilliant exposition of the puzzle that had to be solved to get to a plan to end the war as expeditiously as practicable. With the MacArthur histrionics as part of the foreground noise and distraction clouding the fluid situation, the second best option emerged supreme. Thank God for General Leslie Groves, Paul Tibbets, and the Success of the Manhattan project, because even at the end of July 1945 Japan😮😮 wasn't DONE! Japan was still capable!😮

Love listening to your podcast gentlemen. Thank you for sharing this history.

Great show gentlemen.

Boy you guys are posting early in the morning today! Can’t wait for this episode.

Wow! You have both outdone yourselves again. This has always been a 'missing piece' in my appreciation of the Pacific War. It's now been filled with a presentation that oozes substance, nuance and lucidity.

@flparkermdpc

3 ай бұрын

Excellent turn of praise phrase..

Seth & Bill …second to none…GO ARMY 🏈

Great work gentlemen, as per usual….

At the time, the Philippines were a protectorate of the United States. To "starve the Japanese troops out" of the Philippines would require us also starving the civilian population of our protectorate the Philippines. What would the negative implications of that decision be? That is a heavy question. This must have gone into the political decisions that led up to us going to Japan via the Philippines. Taking Mindanao first placed Luzon clearly in the path of our trek to Japan. How could we resist Luzon when we had to sail right past it on our way to Japan? Taking Mindanao played into McArthur's hands. But I still don't believe it was an either/or situation. Capturing Formosa should have been considered in ADDITION to the Philippines, not either or. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20.

One of the most informative and interesting episodes. Thank you

Another great episode. 👍 👍

An interesting discussion about WWII planning that I was not aware of. Great job, guys.

And as far as music goes, this knocks the ball out of the park. Masters of the Air take note!

This is I'm waiting for,the jump to my beloved Philippines,thank you very much guys

I always enjoy your podcast and this one was particularly interesting. The meeting at Heavy Cruiser Baltimore where MacArthur was late upstaging the President was a pre curser to his exact same treatment of Harry Truman at their famous Wake Island meeting during the Korean War.

You guys keep forgetting the Philippines was US soil during the war. Even until the 1970s there was political debate here regarding whether the Philippines should remain independent or apply for statehood in the US (the last political party advocating Statehood only received 3% vote in the early 1970s and thereafter dropped the issue from their platform). One of my extended family, a man I knew as Kakang Tesio, was in 4th grade in 1941. He remembers walking home from school on December 8 and seeing a stray Japanese Zero quickly fly by (he grew up in Batangas, close to Cavite). He grew up with an American school matron in a one-room schoolhouse and studied American curriculum using American textbooks. He always remembered the 48 states, their capitals and primary agricultural product. He passed away in 2015, only a few months before I was to be married in April. I cried because my wife would never be able to meet him. He was one of very few elderly Filipinos who enjoyed discussing the war - most witnessed horrific events that traumatized them for life, so you learn not to ask. Sad you all seem to forget the real connection between the Philippines and the US, especially the emotional scars of Bataan.

@joeyartk

3 ай бұрын

Didn't the US kill 20.000 Filipino soldiers and 200,000 civilians taking over the Philippines after the Spanish American war?

Captain Toti, yes, greater involvement in China, at Formosa or the mainland might have changed post-war events in China, but probably not. Let's remember that the US did have significant operations in China. The CBI theater may have been low on the ladder for the whole US (and Allied) effort, but it was nonetheless significant. Indeed, after the most recent -Xi-Biden meeting, in an apparent effort to warm relations, Xi's government noted the US and China as partners in the struggle against Japan. In the end, whether US troops had been part of a greater liberation in China, Nationalist forces, drained from the fight with the Japanese (and the Communists) would very likely have still fallen to the better positioned and fresher Communist forces. Also to remember, in Operation Beleaguer, we had over 50,000 troops on the mainland in late 1945 and beyond, working to repatriate those imprisoned and displaced in China by the Japanese during the war. This didn't have much impact on how events evolved post-War there. In the meantime, I know we all are thankful for the Allies efforts in the China-Burma India-Theater. Another great discussion today. I'm glad you covered this decision. The Spruance way seems the right way in hindsight.

@vladimirpecherskiy1910

3 ай бұрын

Fate if China could've been changed if Japan capitulated before USSR entered the war. Just as simple as that.

Great presentation and much more information that were also considered for the next direction . 👍

That was a damn good episode you guys.

@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar

3 ай бұрын

Many thanks Curtis. I had fun writing that one. Lots of unknown, or at the very least, lesser known material. -Seth

This had to be one of your best.

This was a, most enlightening pod cast. I never knew, there was this much intrigued involved at this point in the war

@flparkermdpc

3 ай бұрын

With MacArthur still around...

A classic hero's dilemma: save the damsel in distress, or go after the villain...

Thank-you

I have watched every episode of your series with anticipation gaining new insight with each. Episode 323 revealed information I had no knowledge of despite being an undergraduate history major focused on Asian History and a retired Foreign Service Officer with assignments in Taiwan, China and the Philippines (where I currently reside). I agree with the previous commentator, this episode would easily have been a better graduate thesis than the one I did and will effect my next discussion on the topic. Bravo gentlemen!

@martinwade9003

3 ай бұрын

I have been watching your series since you started and as a student of history, have enjoyed every minute. A salute to both Seth, Bill and allow your guests who have added so much background to the Pacific War. Thank you again for your great series. Time is 11.10 am 03/05. /Martin

I was hoping for a discussion of this important event in the conduct of the pacific war. Gentlemen, you did not disappoint. It is always easy to look at things in hindsight, but entirely another thing to to view decisions made in light of the information and politics of the time.

Blue bottle flies! Attracted from miles to lay their eggs on carrion. Horse flies or Tabanid flies are large blood feeders that have slashing mouthparts and do indeed torment horses and people with their painful blood letting efforts.

Off topic but I think it speaks volumes about consumers of content on KZread. I don't see how the viewers to "likes" ratio is around 10%. You're telling me 90% of people are that conceited, lazy or self absorbed that they can't hit the like button? Maybe we have thousands of PhDs watching that feel the material is mundane but nevertheless acknowledge the effort put into these episodes. Seth and Bill, there is not one episode that has not been informative and interesting. Thanks for your outstanding work product.

I've followed you since the beginning of this series. This episode is my favorite by far because of the new things I learned today, specifically the intelligence uncovered by the Chiefs of Staff. Five Star episode.

Great content. Thank you for such an informative podcast!

Subscribed Thanks for the insight.

A VERY interesting episode. You did a good presentation on the personalities involved. With the advantage of hindsight, the Formosa operation would appear to be a very large committment for the available resources. My usual area of study is the ETOUSA and they were already in a manpower crunch in the fall of 1944. Operation Market-Garden had drawn the Allies further north than originally planned. The frontline was stretched and short of divisions. There were still some US Army divisions in deploying to Europe, BUT the US was just about at full mobilization of the available manpower. Those 500,00 men for Formosa would have to come from somewhere. On the line of alternative history, either the early capture of Iwo Jima or the full invasion of Formosa would have required some response from the Japanese Navy. The potential sea battles certain are interesting to speculate on.

Well done, gentelman. Would have loved to hear what Jon P. would have said about this subject.

The blood bath at Iwo would have been avoided. WOW, I knew that Iwo was poorly defended in the fall of 1944 via Saburo Saki’s (Samurai) Book but didn’t know about Spruance’s strategy. What a sad and lost opportunity that Spruance provided but ignored by supposedly smart people. The Marines pay for their mistakes in blood.

About time!🤣❤️🫡

@garymackey850

3 ай бұрын

🤣🤣

You guys are awesome

Thank you Seth and Bill. What an informative episode. A half-dozen or more new pieces of information I'd never heard or read. My late grandfather, whom I never met, served aboard LST574 and was part of the Invasion Force of Lingayen Gulf in this operation. I had only broken bits of vague info. about his experiences while on the ship. I only recently realized how "hot" the skies and waters around Luzon and Lingayen were during that invasion. Kamikazes and IJN subs were plentiful. Your WWII Pacific channel continues to be one of the very best on the web.

@alganhar1

3 ай бұрын

My Grandfather was on Landing ships. More specifically he was part of the Royal Marine complement on board the LSI(L) - Landing Ship Infantry, Large) HMS Glengyle. Manned one of the beach support landing craft armed with mortars. As a result he was directly involved during all the major landings in the ETO, and a lot of the Commando operations launched by the Glengyle and her sisters. At wars end HMS Glengyle was with the British Pacific Fleet getting ready for the invasion of Japan, something my Grandfather was not impressed about. I can see his point, as he had been aboard since she was commissioned, and had taken part in every amphibious operation she had been involved in since that time (1940). In all that time he never had home leave... Almost six years before he saw home again, that was how busy those ships were...

Thanks!

From my USN Father's and two uncles perspective with their experiences in the SW Pacific as regards MacArthur, they despised the man, so much so that when adm. Will Halsey assumed immediate command of them, it was almost as if Jesus Christ himself had intervened. MacArthur knew this and despised Halsey for this. Footnote: to this day the photo of Halsey I inherited from my father is in a place of honor on our family portrait wall.

Good episode.

Great video, ‘military history visualised’ also covered this about 5 years ago and concluded in hindsight attacking Formosa instead of Philippines was not a better idea, as Formosa was held by much stronger forces and there was still the risk of the Japanese fleet which might not have turned out as favourable as Leyte Gulf. One quote I love about MacArthur is that “the best and the worst things you hear about him are all true”.

After three episodes covering the hellscape of Peleliu, spending some time on statecraft and logistics was very interesting. Keep up the great work Seth and Bill!

touché Bill, "I shall return". That was a cool way to end this very informative episode. Good job to both of you guys. I will say "Dasvidaniya" Goodbye until next week.

This would be a tremendous year long WW 2 history course. Thanks!

Great side road traveled on Torpedo Tuesday. Awesome.

Interesting that Mac said I shall return not WE shall return. Turned it into a personal campaign to fulfill a personal vendetta against the Japanese.

@kensvay4561

3 ай бұрын

He was also paid a huge amount in gold by the Philippine dictator before the war.

@chrisk7118

3 ай бұрын

@@kensvay4561 Dictator? Quezon was an amazing president not a dictator. See the movie Quezon's game. He even repatriated jews into the Philippines when no other country in the world would take them. The leaders then in Philippines were all class.

I'm finally caught up and caught one on the day of release. It's interesting to wonder what Formosa/Taiwan could have meant to China's future, but I can't escape the belief that Chiang Kai-shek would have found a way to screw it up. It's who he was, it's what he did.

Thanks, boys.

Brings back MacArthur's sell job in the MacArthur movie, that scene had me sold until I watched a few of this podcast's episodes! 😂😂😂😂

I'm sure young Douglas MacArthur read Caesar's Gallic Wars while sitting in a comfy chair.

Good morning, SC in the house!

Interesting debate over (what if) the US would have prioritized Formosa over the Philippines. At this juncture of the war the communists were the closet monster, the red boogie man. World policy was also considered, the Reds in China and those naughty Ruskies. It seems to me an occupation of Formosa and relative continued heat on the Philippines would have affected Indo China and far east governments for decades. The Philippines did have commies influencing post war governments but I don't think they would ever gain the momentum to seize power in Manilla and prevail. Interesting debate....thanks brothers you're appreciated.

@vladimirpecherskiy1910

3 ай бұрын

If USSR would enter the war with Japan - unlikely anything change retrospectively Formosa or not.

@kensvay4561

3 ай бұрын

Yes it is all so interesting in hindsight.

I found this presentation especially interesting. I think I have watched just about every podcast and history related presentation about the Pacific war on KZread. When I first learned that McArthur had 10 hours after Pearl Harbor to ready the garrison on the Philippines for the coming Japanese attack but let them be sitting ducks, I could not believe he was regarded as such a brilliant war hero. Whenever MacArthur’s name comes up, other historians’ perspectives are similar to yours. This is especially true regarding MacArthur’s disrespectful treatment of Australia’s military command and troops. I think you two would be particularly good at developing and hosting a standalone series focusing on the people aspects of critical events of the Pacific war. As just a few examples, who were the personalities involved before, during, and in the aftermath the Guadalcanal campaign, the battle of Savo Island, the raid on Makin Island, the invasion of Attu and Kiska, and battle of Midway? And how did the personalities involved, and their decisions influence the outcomes and aftermath?

Happy 82nd Birthday, Seabees. 3/5/42

Once again, the larger conflict that is going on the Asian Continent is ignored. Much of the value of the Formosa first plan was keeping Chinese troops in the game and tying down the largest portion of the Japanese Army on the Continent. It turned out that the Japanese offensive of 1945 would have prevented any advantage to the Formosa offensive. The Japanese offensive unfortunately facilitated the Communist takeover. Probably the most significant and enduring consequence of the Asian Pacific War.

One of the best episodes! I had no idea they were planning to land on Formosa! 1:15:27

Love these types of episodes. Gives real depth to what was going on at the time. Thanks for all your hard work.

MacArthur always said Eisenhower was the best secretary he ever had. Eisenhower was a Major under MacArthur, eventually reaching Lt. Colonel before being recalled to Washington in 1939, where he became a full Colonel in 1940.

Great show. Would you do a show on the coast watchers?

Why waste the 1st Mar Div on Peleliu , which could have been blockaded by the USN. when they could have taken an unprepared Iwo Jima. ? Great conversation today, thank you all so much.

@robertdendooven7258

2 ай бұрын

A bit late, but another consideration to the one about how prepared the defenders on Iwo Jima were, is what would have been the response of the IJN? Would a fleet level battle have taken place around Iwo Jima instead of at Leyte Gulf? Would have the Japanese planes destroyed in the Okinawan and Formosan strikes of Sept. 1944 still have happened? Would have the one Marine and one Army divisions that were used in the Palau's been enough to take Iwo Jima? A great many what ifs.

@stevensparks3126

2 ай бұрын

@@robertdendooven7258 It's all speculation and conversation now. Something for old men because few young people study history. Take care and have a good day.

@robertdendooven7258

2 ай бұрын

@@stevensparks3126 But the what ifs are so fun! LOL!! I agree with your comment. Have a good day yourself.

@brucenadeau2172

22 күн бұрын

6 months early would not let iwo jima be taken by just one division

Another great episode! I do want to add a comment about the viability of the Formosa option. You rightly pointed out the logistic difficulties of the attack, and made a glancing blow at the follow-up stage. I believe that logistic support for a prolonged campaign on Formosa, and support for occupation thereafter would have been more than the Navy logistic system could have sustained. That system barely handled the Mariana Islands Campaign, and in fact shorted the attacking force in materials (for instance, unable to supply the desired types of bombs) and couldn't supply enough fresh and frozen food to meet the standard requirements. Even the Official History written after the War admitted this. While the logistic system was indeed rapidly expanding, the additional transit distance to Formosa from the Marianas (the next jump-off point for shipping to the West) meant that turnaround time for the ships was much longer, even assuming that enough supplies reached the Marianas for transshipment. The other factor is that, assuming Formosa was attacked and the Philippines bypassed, is that the logistics train to Formosa would have to sail between Okinawa and Luzon, subjecting it to attack from land-based aircraft. While the logistic problems were solvable with enough time, effort, and diversion of resources (both combat and support), they did present a major problem. The Pacific Campaign had (barely) dodged the logistics bullet up to that point, Formosa risked stretching it past the breaking point. The Philippines didn't put as much strain on logistics.