Great points about the thematic failures. It reminded me of a line in the Honest Trailer for this movie: “Space Dad says show off your powers to inspire humanity. Farm Dad says hide your powers and let innocent people die. Watch Superman honor them both by showing off his powers _and_ letting innocent people die.”

if only Zodd's mom was named Martha too.

@rhynhardtk

5 жыл бұрын

@array s Ah maaaaaaaaan I was about to type that.

@Feasco

3 жыл бұрын

Mar of the House of Tha

@Carpetf

3 жыл бұрын

it was the name of Locke's wheelchair though

@zumabbar

Жыл бұрын

bro you just spoiled a plot point in the next Flash movie!

@LloydWaldo

Жыл бұрын

WHY DID YOU SAY THST NAME

*"Scenes that's great on their own" is Snyder in a nutshell.*

The best description of Man of Steel was comparing it to a fireworks show. It's exciting at first, but after an hour of non-stop fireworks everyone's looking for the exit.

@thenoirknight5729

Жыл бұрын

I personally disagree, as I don't see that as the best description. I think I'd go with "A telling of the Superman origin story from David S. Goyer, Christopher Nolan, and Zack Snyder that combines the past of Superman in to something new."

How the "Clark's powers manifest while he's in school and disorient him" scene could have paid off later: When I saw that scene for the first time, I assumed it was demonstrating Clark needed a long time, and help from Ma Kent, to fully master and control his powers. So my immediate thought was, this is how Clark will defeat a half-dozen other Kryptonians by himself: He's had a good 20 years to master his powers, while Zod & company will be disoriented. They'll still have the strength, but no control over it. It's basically: "Can a teenager with a hunting rifle possibly take out a SEAL team? Well, if the SEAL team is blinded, deafened, and stuck up to their waists in quicksand, the teenager's odds look a lot better." But no. Zod and company overcome their debilitation in a matter of hours.That scene was almost completely pointless.

@QwertyCaesar

8 жыл бұрын

+digitaljanus It had a point - get Zod out of the initial fight. Its a bad reason and shows that they can't write their way out of a paper bag but that is the reason. They didn't want to blow their load on the Zod fighting Superman that early. Its a shame because its actually a missed opportunity. Basically every critical point about the Zod/Superman fight in Metropolis could've been addressed ahead of time in a 1v1 brawl in Smallville and absolutely none of it is addressed. The purpose of the fight in Smallville is to get Superman on the side of the people and while that could've been done in different and better ways they wanted big dumb actions explosions but they didn't want to undermine the even bigger, dumber action explosions that come later in the film.

@Chaogardenx

7 жыл бұрын

That example actually sounds pretty good. That would've made an amazing movie scene adapted for Sups

@krombopulos_michael

7 жыл бұрын

digitaljanus Even ignoring that section, the thing with Zod adjusting was annoying. When they first fight, Superman brags about how his time on earth basically gives him home advantage. This alone makes it seem like adapting to earth was difficult and took him a long time to do. Which means now we could see him evenly fighting someone who should be much stronger and more experienced. But then Zod just takes a deep breath and gets it too. It's like, what was the point of even putting it in the script at all?

@skidooshlayman12

7 жыл бұрын

Zod was biologically engineered to be the best warrior. He no doubt would be able to readjust to the Earth way faster than Superman. That's like showing a calculus problem to a child and letting him slowly learn how to solve it over the course of his school years, then give the same problem to a mathematician who was born to solve math problems. Zod most likely fought on other worlds with different atmospheres and suns, since the Kryptonians basically conquered their own galaxy more or less. So that gave him experience, which Clark lacks. It also took Superman 20 or so years to learn he could fly, which Zod mastered by the end of the movie.

@Texcoco7

7 жыл бұрын

ok sure you can rationalize it easily, but the point they are making is that it completely ruins the payoff of the earlier scene. If its not going to matter then why have it at all.

Some of the smartest film criticism I've heard in a while.

@thetherapistonwheels6931

5 жыл бұрын

I agree this guy film dissection is a few notches above any thing discussed on rotten tomatoes!

@baiwatch1

3 жыл бұрын

Check out Renegade Cut too.

"Superman has no relationship with humanity, but we're repeatedly told that his relationship with humanity is what's at stake." This pretty much sums up the main problem I had with "Man of Steel." I absolutely love this video. Well done. :)

True story: a few weeks after seeing Man of Steel in theaters, I read something online that made reference to a scene where Superman hallucinated that he was drowning in skulls. I had no memory of it whatsoever. Take the image of that at face value: SUPERMAN. DROWNING. IN SKULLS. If this had been the cover of a comic book I saw as a kid, it would have changed my damn life. That's one of the most compelling and metal images I can imagine off the top of my head. The fact that I was able to sit through a 2.5 hour Superman film and COULDN'T REMEMBER that there was a scene in which Superman hallucinates that he's drowning in skulls, is to me evidence that this movie failed catastrophically to have any lasting impact, relevance or quality whatsoever. I've sworn off all future Zack Snyder films for this reason.

@lilrhia

5 жыл бұрын

The story wasn't impactful at all, nor were the themes - it's a cookie-cutter superhero movie with a heap of other junk thrown in, and of which most people have already forgotten the plot. And well... people talk about Snyder in the same way they discuss M. Night or Bay. That's not necessarily something to take as positive nor a hallmark of a lasting, impactful text. Just saying.

@TwelvetreeZ

5 жыл бұрын

@CaptainRidley Trouble is, people would rather talk about his films than watch them.

@GigawingsVideo

5 жыл бұрын

@@TwelvetreeZ So you're claiming that people who hate it didn't watch it? Newsflash mate I watched it and I fucking despise it. The story has no impact at all. Compare that to Cap Am Wint Sold where I keep thinking about how it touched on how fearmongering was used by Hydra to justify a genocide of several million of people for the sake of 7 billion. It felt close to home thanks to current fearmongering trend in media (also the loss of personal freedom). But with Man of Steel it just felt empty. There's no message, just a bunch of super buff guy bashing each other and "American military fuck yeah!" attitude. Even Lois felt empty, she's supposed to be the morality support of Supes but in this movie she's just there because "I found you! I'm smart!"

@The80sWolf_

5 жыл бұрын

@@GigawingsVideo "let me tell why its bad.... MCU IS BETTER" What a surprise that someone that bashes man of steel or bvs is a mcu fan :P

@The80sWolf_

5 жыл бұрын

@@lilrhia MOS, especially BVS is the opposite of cookie cutter.

You did not mention the part that annoyed me the most about the truck being impaled by logs scene. What was up with the truckers reaction? He did not even looked confused, sad, freaked out, or any other human emotion that someone would feel when seeing something that is completely unbelievable. He looks at his truck like, "oh well, that happened."

@SirDupree

7 жыл бұрын

Myself, I emote more when I am drunk.

@sarahmacdonald955

7 жыл бұрын

I think this boils down to an issue with Zack Snyder that's explored in a video called "Moments vs Scenes". The lack of focus on his expression just highlights that it's not important, seeing the truck is the focal point of that moment, not the impact that has on the trucker, or the implications for his livelihood, employment (or future un-employement) or his mode of transportation.

@krombopulos_michael

7 жыл бұрын

Yeah he's got a face like its annoying but he's used to seeing this. Not "holy shit what the fuck happened to my truck", more like "oh, my phone isn't getting a good signal here".

@finaljustice3848

7 жыл бұрын

Thank you for commenting on this I thought I was the only one that noticed this unrealistic reaction from the trucker.

@SirDupree

7 жыл бұрын

That was the point where the movie completely lost me. I spent the rest of the time noticing how no one was acting like a realistic human.

This kind of goes right along with what I've said is the major issue with the film: Zod should NOT have been the antagonist. if it wants to establish Clark/Superman as necessary/helpful for humans to have around, it has to establish his relationship to PEOPLE first. The Donner films understood this. In this movie, he's essentially saving humanity from the problem of him being on the planet in the first place. If Clark isn't there, neither is Zod, and there's no problem. Why WOULD humanity keep him around?

@gremlech2846

7 жыл бұрын

zod works for the arc of clark vs KAL, is he a man with super powers or a god who pretends to be human.

@MGSBigBoss77

7 жыл бұрын

A guy whom no prison could hold just like Clark, a guy who came from the same planet as him who'd easily put his boot down on humanity's neck in an instant and crush us all. Zod isn't a villain you'd want to face off against. Even Superman has made this quite clear in both Superman II and Man Of Steel. set generations apart from one another!

@nobrkt

7 жыл бұрын

the problem is that Earth was doomed, because Zod wanted to make Krypton v.2 instead of Earth (after capturing Kal-el and excracting that Kryptonian code).

@k13kk

7 жыл бұрын

firefly4f4, so you're saying that they should've made the new movies just the way they made the old ones? I bet that you and the 100 people that liked your coment are the ones also saying that "The Force Awakens" was trash because it was a complete rehash of "A New Hope". How can you people want the same movie with updated visuals? That is so stipid! The old Superman films are so out of place in today's world, same as Burton's Batmans. They are basicly cartoons with nostalgia factor.

@firefly4f4

7 жыл бұрын

I actually quite liked (not loved, but liked), "The Force Awakens", so good job in screwing up your own argument. So way to completely misread my comment. Read it again and try to understand the point before saying, "I WANT THE SAME THING AGAIN!"

Bu-but, it was so dark and gritty! Now I can finally take Superman seriously. Didn't you see how many buildings fell down? It was awesome!

Now I want to download the movie, re cut those scenes in chronological order, add some goddamn color and enjoy the Superman movie I deserve!

@DerezzedMan

7 жыл бұрын

Adrian Rodriguez no one ever gets satisfied

@prowlinglunatic

5 жыл бұрын

Please do this.

@Pablo-ze6un

5 жыл бұрын

If you're half decent at editing (I don't even know how to use movie maker) I'd highly encourage you to do it. I know, I know, 2 years too late, but I'd see that edit.

@5ft4inprotagonist24

5 жыл бұрын

can I get a copy?

@jtcob8486

4 жыл бұрын

Yes! If you're gonna make a superman movie, actually have COLOR. Heck, the color could make visually beautiful (first flight) even more beautiful.

That tornado scene makes me mad every time I even hear about it.

@TooFatTooFurious

7 жыл бұрын

SonicRulez94 I remember seeing it in cinema. There were giggles all over the audience, and me and my mom turned to each other with a "Did that just really happen?" look on our face

@geoffreysorkin5774

4 жыл бұрын

Especially because in the comics, Pa Kent outlived his son. Why do filmmakers feel the need to turn Superman into Spider-man, and Pa Kent into Uncle fucking Ben?

@Tareltonlives

3 жыл бұрын

What I don't get is if Johnathan is such a douche and Clark loves him, why does Clark become such a good person?

@bumfricker2487

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tareltonlives "because he's superman" the film says

At the point you discuss how Superman's killing of Zod doesn't have the impact it should: I felt the exact same way. I think what happened is that the writers let the culture surrounding Superman bleed into the film. We know Superman doesn't kill, right? But if you're going to make that the crux of Superman's big internal conflict, you gotta establish it more than in the one scene where he both kills and laments the killing of Zod. We don't get that setup because I suspect the writers went "Well we _know_ he doesn't like killing, because he's Superman!" You still have to establish it in the film.

@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168

4 жыл бұрын

I've heard someone defend that scene by saying that it feeds into the central theme of "Choice" that Man of Steel itself is about. Superman has to either choose to let Zod continue causing chaos or kill him to stop it. He makes the choice that is the hardest in the moment but is maybe the best possible way to stop a genocidal villain (whilst also doing exactly what Zod wanted him to do). I agree with this interpretation and I think that the film is saying that sometimes the most clear and logical choices are the hardest to make. P.S. I really hated how Erod's honest review of this film said that a new generation of kids will be brought up thinking that Murder is okay. Ah yes, a scene of someone being forced to kill someone else and then screaming in agony about it will totally make a child think that Murder is good.

@SchulzEricT

4 жыл бұрын

@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 So he has to make the hard choice between: 1 - Allowing a murderer to continue to murder or 2 - Don't do that I mean... that's a fucking simple, easy choice, right? Like, that's the kind of thing a child would write into his story thinking it was edgy, not something a grown adult should think is deep. C'mon, Clark isn't conflicted at all there: he either has to do the clearly right thing or the clearly wrong thing. He made the easy choice, because there's only one possible choice.

@the_rose_garden01

2 жыл бұрын

@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 Unironically, my 7 year old brother left the movie theatre that day saying that his favorite scene was Superman murdering Zod. And it wasn't until we explained it to him that it was wrong that he gathered that it wasn't the right thing to do. I think you underestimate how children internalize media, especially when it's superheroes. Let alone Superman. I imagine if my mother never asked what our favorite scenes were, he'd have taken that lesson to heart. Does mean he'd have turned out a murderer? Not necessarily, but the lesson he took wasn't about hard choices. Kids don't understand that.

@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168

2 жыл бұрын

@@the_rose_garden01 Yeah I understand, I just think that saying that as a general point is really misguided because even a kid (I was one when I saw the movie for the first time, I was 14) could tell that the death wasn’t something to be enjoyed, satisfied by and thought was totally okay.

@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168

2 жыл бұрын

@@the_rose_garden01 But I get that not everyone thinks the same so it’s not impossible for what you’re saying to be true.

This video almost frustrates me because it makes me slowly realize that Man of Steel was just a few structural fixes and one or two scene changes away from being the best Superman movie. This movie is the equivalent feeling of getting a 69.999999999% in a class and not getting it curved to a passing grade. It would've been less frustrating if the movie was just undebateably bad.

@FoldingIdeas

7 жыл бұрын

I 100% agree.

@jonknight4616

7 жыл бұрын

Exactly. I'm right there with you.

@DECIMUS771

7 жыл бұрын

I was insulted by the fathers death scene. So un-realistic and mishandled. I have trouble having sympathy for a movie that would do that. The whole film was like a slap in the face. The scene where he was playing as a child with a cape on? Who was he referencing with the cape? He IS superman.

@da_pikmin_coder8367

7 жыл бұрын

Decimari mendacium We'll, I went into Man of Steel seeing it as a symbolic movie. Every scene I didn't look at its logic or if it was cool, but what it symbolized. All the trailers, plus everything everyone said in the movie, suggests that everything is symbolic. In your defense, the movie failed on a symbolic level too. But I don't think Zack Snyder made the movie based on logic or expected his audience to have a low suspension of disbelief.

@johna6108

7 жыл бұрын

Da_Pikmin_Coder it was

that bar scene kills me because it's like ... exactly the same if cavil is just a dude, he's so clearly capable of kicking the guy's ass if they are both human that there's no way the scene plays out with them fucking with him like he's ezra miller or andrew garfield. Like, if a dude is the size of an NFL tight end and he's working as a bus boy in an ice road truck stop nobody's brain is gonna go 'I bet this brooding, gigantic guy is a pacifist who makes good choices, let's throw beer cans at his rippling traps when his back is turned, surely the one person I should start a fight with is this guy who is about to pop out of his xxxl longjohns because of how jacked he is" See also: All the times someone picks a fight with jared padlacki on supernatural

@grumioiscool6190

5 ай бұрын

I wonder if the scene was written before the part was actually cast, like they planned for a more “nerdy” looking Clark closer to the comics but they cast cavil and never changed the scene to match how Clark actually looks

@KissMyConverseFool

5 ай бұрын

@@grumioiscool6190 i dunno the success of reacher would seem to imply people just like the trope

Zac Snyder seems like he knows what a good movie is supposed to look like, and what kind of scenes it's supposed to have, but he has no idea how to put any of them together in a way that makes sense.

I still can't believe they tried to make Superman, of all superheroes, an objectivist hero.

@trumplostlol5281

3 жыл бұрын

Why objectivist? You can use violence and kill the intolerant, to protect the tolerant, in the most unegotistical way. Wtf

"as threatening as a carton of eggs" I laughed

I enjoyed listening to Hans Zimmer's score throughout this video. He's the one guy mixed up in all of this who never disappoints.

Your choice of words when describing the scene at the bar is hilarious and perfect

@thehoodedteddy1335

7 жыл бұрын

6:32 timestamp for my future self to rewatch this

The funny thing is I always interpreted the whooshy flashback audio cue from lost as being the sound of the plane’s engines, the white noise we hear when we’re on a flight, since the first several times we encounter it (IIRC) we’re flashing back to what our cast were doing right before the crash: Jack scoring some extra booze, Kate strapping on Mars’ oxygen mask, Charlie getting high in the bathroom, etc. But… uh… Man of Steel has no big jet airliner sitting right on the line between “present events” and “past events” lol.

You also missed something in Clark's X-Ray vision scene, that is a major gripe of mine. It could be argued that scene also sets up the rules of the Man of Steel universe. We're lead to believe this is one of the first times those powers have manifested, maybe not the very first time, since Ma Kent knows what to do, but still early in their development. Clark isn't used to having them yet. He's how old in the scene, somewhere between 8-10? So, it takes Kryptonians years to develop these powers, an idea backed up by Jor El's speech to Clark when he gets the suit. Jor El stating that Clark will so powerful because he's spent 33 years (obvious Jesus parallel is obvious) on Earth absorbing sunlight. Okay, so again, the powers take time to develop. Cut to Clark on Zod's ship. He immediately loses his powers because Kryptonian atmosphere, and probably also the yellow sunlight is being filtered out, since he has no powers, and that is also a source of his powers, and none of the other Kryptonians display powers while on the ship. So, Zod isn't gaining powers from being on the ship, most likely. But let's say he does, fine. He's still only been in orbit around Earth for a few days during the events of the movie. We know it took until Clark was 8-10 for X-Ray vision, Heat vision and super hearing to develop, based on the scene where those powers were going haywire. We also know from Jor El that because Clark has spent 33 years on Earth he will be immensely powerful. Yet, somehow, Zod and the other Kryptonians develop powers that are on par with Clark's after spending a few hours in Earth orbit and a few minutes on planet. WHAT?! Cardinal rule of writing fiction of any kind: Once you establish rules for your world, you have to stick to them. Movie establishes prior to the arrival of other Kryptonians that the powers take years to manifest. Then when other Kryptonians show up, it suddenly only takes a few minutes. No, you're not allowed to do that, especially when you set up the idea as thoroughly as they did. Screw that. That's why Man of Steel is just an awful film. It doesn't obey one of the most fundamental rules of writing fiction.

@Tuckerscreator

7 жыл бұрын

I thought the movie was going to be setting something up about how Clark's longer experience with his powers and familiarity with Earth would trump the Kryptonians' military training for their own planet. An analogous case would be a self-taught average joe who's spent their whole life in zero-gravity vs a Navy SEAL on their first day in space. The SEAL would have more raw power up close, but they'd be disoriented, seasick, would struggle to chase their more maneuverable opponent, and have to contend with weird space physics like an equal and opposite push to themselves every time they connect a punch. Instead Zod acclimates in a day after only two times of disorientation in Earth atmosphere. I figure the movie wanted to make it more exciting that Superman would be fighting an opponent of equal power, but there's barely an explanation as to how Zod figured out how to perfectly fly in a second while Clark crashed on his first try.

@Corlock78

7 жыл бұрын

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. That's also why this is a cardinal sin of writing. You set the audience up for different expectations, when you establish those kinds of rules. Based on the set up they do in the movie, your expectations for how Zod would be handled are very realistic. Instead, these rules are ignored, destroying suspension of disbelief because the rules of the world are no longer consistent or meaningful, and throwing any expectations out the window. Yet, most critiques of Man of Steel, completely ignore this. Granted there's so much else wrong with the film, but at the same time, this is an unforgivable mistake of story telling and WB and Zack Snyder, should not be allowed to forget it.

@KingOfMadCows

7 жыл бұрын

The Kryptonians' powers make no sense. They clearly had super strength and speed when they were still in their suits, which preserves their atmosphere. Faora and Non were fast and strong enough to fight Superman. But if they have powers when they're in the Kryptonian atmosphere, why does Superman lose all his powers?

@Tuckerscreator

7 жыл бұрын

***** That part actually makes more sense. Their superstrength and speed comes from Earth's lower gravity, while abilities like x-ray vision and laser eyes are from the atmosphere. Same principle as why astronauts from Earth are able to jump really high and throw things far distances on the moon, even when in bulky spacesuits.

@Corlock78

7 жыл бұрын

+Tuckerscreator Okay, lower gravity gives them enhanced strength, sure. But most of Superman's super strength comes from sunlight and according to "Man of Steel" our atmosphere. The Kryptonians in spacesuits that preserved their atmosphere but possibly allowed them some exposure to yellow sunlight, should not have been anywhere near on par with Superman in terms of strength or speed. Faster and stronger than humans? Sure, I can buy that. Able to go toe to toe with Superman in terms of strength and speed when he's been on Earth for 33 years? No, I don't buy that. And then, if the sunlight absorbing works kind of like a battery, then why does Superman loose his powers immediately on a Kryptonian ship. If he has 33 years worth of sunlight in him, which makes him a total badass according to his father Jor El, then shouldn't his powers have somewhat lingered even on the Kryptonian ship, until he used up all that stored up sunlight?

Like most Snyder movies, it is a bunch of scenes that he thinks look cool but fails to string together into an over-arcing narrative.

@matthewmuir8884

6 жыл бұрын

The scenes coming before the story. The Last Jedi had the same problem.

@Tareltonlives

3 жыл бұрын

@@matthewmuir8884 As did the other two Star Wars sequels.

@matthewmuir8884

3 жыл бұрын

@@Tareltonlives I completely agree. I said The Last Jedi specifically because I thought it was especially egregious and Rise of Skywalker didn't exist yet.

@trequor

3 жыл бұрын

Snyder is missing his calling as a tv director for the action episodes.

I never get tired of hearing new ways to describe Clark's physique

Man, I love Superman but I wish DC and WB would get their damn act together and stop fucking up everything involving him.

@janesmith4167

7 жыл бұрын

AirLancer IKR! the old movies made us ❤ Superman! one thing this movie didn't do well, is make us ❤ or even like Superman as a person. ( Clark & Superman )

"lactates testosterone" X'D also "I'm sorry, no. The US military is not an effective proxy for humanity."

I'm glad I found you're channel omfg

@bboyasterix

7 жыл бұрын

Your* :)

@alexarias5717

7 жыл бұрын

Tarjei this fucking guy. lmfao

@bboyasterix

7 жыл бұрын

Well, I'm just trying to make the world a better place. One correction at a time

@alexarias5717

7 жыл бұрын

Tarjei hahaha ok dude keep on truckin

@noirerequiemii101

7 жыл бұрын

i like both of these comments, on both merits of spelling and enjoyment of Folding's videos

Lately, I've started to notice that DC actually have great ideas/themes on their movie, yet somehow failed to deliver it satisfyingly. Marvel, on the other hand, prefer a simple good-evil story most of the time with not really deep questions, yet able to deliver it nicely and make them entertaining. DC (at least in MoS and BvS) had great potential. When I watched them in the cinema, I felt that those movie could be a great movie, yet I got out of the studio troubled that it ended up not. Marvel's theme are almost never too deep nor overly complicated, yet it manage to capture its audience mind because they know what they're trying to make. They have a clear vision (most of the time) of what kind of experience they want to bring with their movies. Both DC and Marvel still have rooms for improvement, but for both to start improve more, I think it need to be started with DC. When DC managed to make an entertaining and generally good movie with deep theme and conflict, Marvel will soon take notes and start to changed their approach on their movie.

@factor7791

3 жыл бұрын

Nolan was able to get a lot of mileage with the "dark and gritty" mood of his Batman films with competent editing and decent dialogue. There were plot holes and inconsistencies that you might not notice on first viewing because your disbelief was adequately suspended. DC fell down when they tried to replicate that with Superman/Snyder. It's sad to see considering The Long Halloween/The Dark Night Returns don't deserve that kind of abuse. But-playing devil's advocate-could Snyder really rise to the occasion when The Dark Knight Returns had already been done right twice? Maybe he was just set up for failure? At any rate Snyder deserves to be put up against the wall for The Watchmen.

At this point, I view the DC movie continuity as the Justice Lords origin story. I expect any movie now DC will surprise us with some actual cheerful movies and tell us that the grim world will try to invade the cheerful one to "spread order and justice, against their will if necessary."

@dbrokensoul

7 жыл бұрын

After watching all those Marvel and all those DC, I come into conclusion that DC has more deeper theme and conflict but ultimately have a problem delivering it while Marvel usually pick a more clear and distinct good-bad stories but deliver it in the right way. I watched Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice and have a feeling that both actually has the potential to be great, but failed to do that right. Marvel on the other hand mostly using mediocre base (with some exception) but manage to make them entertaining. I really hope for DC to be able to focus on their theme well and execute it more correctly, so Marvel could also grow in term of their movie quality by learning from each other.

@Retorix303

7 жыл бұрын

Really good fucking point.

the theme for Man of Steel : got bulled? show'em your power! 1, Clark got bullied as a kid, show'em your power... saving the bus. 2, Clark got bullied as an adult, show'em your power... trashing the truck. 3, Clark got bullied as a kid, show'em your power... wrecking the fence. 4, Clark got bullied as a adult, show'em your power... LEVEL THE CITY!

@barcarolleenjoyer

6 жыл бұрын

5, Clark got bullied by a guy dressed like a bat? Show'em your power until you can, then plead Mercy by screaming "SAVE MARTHA!!!" Theme for BvS: got bullied? Say your mom's name!

Man, this hits on so much that I agree with regarding this movie. To the last point of the video: the fact that we were never given the scene where Clark decides to BE Superman. It seems to me that the dumb Jonathan-Kent-suicide-by-tornada scene should have been that scene. It would have accomplished so much if it were there: 1. "No Pa, I have to help people. Including you, right now." 2. "No Space Pa, it's important that I care for humanity." 3. "Yes, Humanity, here I am, Superman, here to save you." These threads could all have been accomplished right there if the first 2/3 of the movie were re-ordered to actually *build* tension (and not undercut it) to that scene and capstone it at that point with Clark making his choice to help and doing it publicly to save the most lives, damn the consequences. But no, it was dumb, and he NONSENSICALLY let his father die (who, by the way, let himself be swept up by a tornado with all the emotion of a potato) when he can move faster than anyone can think, let alone perceive. SIGH.

So....could this have been better if it took the same scenes, then then just put them in chronological order? Most of the problem is that the conflicts are answers by present day events long before the flashback establishing that problem comes up. So, if they just took the right time line, spliced in some "unknown vigilant going about, saving people from disasters' story line after he meets up with Holo-Dad, have humanity debate about if he is a threat, and THEN have Zod show up, creating a debate where people that he saved protest just handing him over.... yeah, this could be decent build up. It seems they have almost all of the right scenes, just not fitting the jigsaw together right. It just need 10-20 minutes for him to 'show himself to humanity on his own terms', and it would be complete. Hell, they could have made weird "supersenses make you trip balls" thing important by making this similar to Irredeemable, which has a superman standin, the Plutonian, that cannot help to hear each and every person's single cry for help. Thus, it could thus make heroics into a near compulsive thing for Superman (stopping the cries) and have him gain a huge amount of empathy (since he is intimately familiar with the suffering of humans, unlike Zod). That could reinforce his magical hobo-ness, since he would avoid cities full of people in trouble. Thus, his decision to move to metropolis would have gravity, since that is the same as the ''I'll never work in medicine again" doctor walking into a hospital with a white coat on.

@fightingmedialounge519

5 жыл бұрын

No, it's still missing a few scenes.

An example of how to show grief and internal conflict about helping to kill your own people can be found in the Deep Space Nine episode "Afterimage".

Hey, just wanted to compliment you on your Gamergate video. great stuff.

I just hated the design of the personal prison pods, they look like flying butt plugs lol

One thing I appreciated was the casting of Lois Lane. Hollywood protocol is to cast a 22 year old sex doll for everything even when it's not appropriate. Lois Lane is supposed to be an established Pulitzer Prize winning journalist. I can buy 38 year old Amy Adams in that role. She's beautiful, but also has a maturity about her and she isn't a bimbo. I also like how they avoided the trope of Lois not recognizing Superman when he has glasses on. Her being the one to discover he's Superman (through her aforementioned skills as a journalist) before anyone else knows worked great. The trope is still unavoidable going forward since Superman has been seen up close by everyone on the news, but it's the public who look like dipshits instead of Lois.

@toyes33

4 жыл бұрын

They had no chemistry and she seemed out of place in the movie.

@Tareltonlives

3 жыл бұрын

The downside: she's Amy Adams

If you want a story about how a super-powered being learns about the sanctity of life then I suggest you watch Trigun.

What really pises me off about Man of Steel and, to a lesser extent, BvS, is how much potential they have in their basic premises and in the themes they want to grapple with. Man of Steel could have been an excellent film if the script had been better, and the coloring was more vibrant. Batman vs. Superman should have been more concise, with more attention focused on Superman's grovelling with the themes presenting in MOS.

@Tareltonlives

3 жыл бұрын

I remember being excited by the Man of Steel trailer. That was before I knew who Zach Snyder was

The kid who played child Clark is one of my dear childhood friends

For those who still ask the question of why Superman doesn't kill, I always recommend the DC Animated Movie, "Superman vs. The Elites" because it pretty much revolves around that very issue. The antagonists of the film are a group called, of course, the Elites, heroes who see killing as the only way to fight crime and solve world issues, and the film does a fantastic job of exploring that idea and countering it, showing just where that sort of mentality gets the world. It always frustrates me when people turn Superman into a killer because he's supposed to be the very last person on the planet who would ever kill someone and "Superman vs. the Elites" shows the flaws in the ideology that violence is the only way to solve anything. Still, I don't know why Zack Synder is making movies, nothing he does has been a critical success and he's still allowed to make new stuff. First Man of Steel, now Batman vs. Superman which was even worse, hopefully this will be the last superhero film he mangles.

@vaiyt

7 жыл бұрын

That animated movie is based on a Superman comic named "What's so funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way?"

@StCrimson667

7 жыл бұрын

vaiyt Yeah, I know. I haven't read it, but, from what I've heard of it, I think that the movie addressed the themes better. Still, I think the movie is mandatory viewing for anyone thinks that Superman is unrealistic.

@vaiyt

7 жыл бұрын

Jacob Marion Batman also doesn't kill (that was a big plot point in TDK!), and in fact so don't the majority of other superheroes, but for some reason that eludes me Superman gets singled out.

@StCrimson667

7 жыл бұрын

vaiyt Agreed, definitely. I could see someone like Wonder Woman killing, at first, because she comes from a warrior culture, but the others convince her that killing an enemy isn't the best way to do things. I think Superman is often targeted because he's so resolutely against it, so resolutely pure and virtuous, whereas Batman is supposed to be a bit of a darker superhero so it's easier for people to see him killing.

@APDaBaron

7 жыл бұрын

Uh, because if Superman is a killer, then what's to stop him from killing everyone.

The best decision they made for this movie was casting Henry Cavill. That gorgeous man was hand crafted by the gods

DC is the equivalent of building a space ship from scratch and it failing on launch. Marvel is the equivalent of making a perfect paper aeroplane.

I'm glad you pointed out how stupid the bar scene was, it pissed me off so much when watching the movie. It's a redo of a scene in Superman 2 that pisses me off in that movie too.

@labyrinthwomb

3 жыл бұрын

It also seems like they were remaking the scene from 'Witness'... but it has no impact because Clark isn't established as a pacifist.

I dunno… Through this review it just kind of made me think of the CW Supergirl show? Like a lot of these themes are present there, even some of the scenes, but it actually has a point in the show. Like I think in an episode Supergirl has a flashback to being a kid and dealing with her powers and feeling/being different than everyone else, and it connects to her struggle to fit in versus her struggle to be a hero and make a difference. How much of yourself to keep hidden, how much to reveal to people, which is the real you. She also saved people as a kid and got lectured for it, just like Clark here, and wound up choosing her life as a kid. She chose to be normal - until something in her adult life forced her hand, making her realize she did want to be Supergirl and then she worked hard to have the best of both worlds. Her internal and external struggles in the show are better than anything in this movie, I think, because we see the impact it has on her - we see how the flashbacks connect to her current path, her current struggles. They don't just come out of nowhere and are immediately forgotten and never addressed again. Each flashback has a purpose. When she has to make a hard choice, you see how it weighs on her. She doesn't immediately get over it. The destruction she causes by saving the day is also addressed almost immediately in the show, too, and she has to learn balance and tries to keep everyone safe even in her fights and tries to minimize the damage she's causing, which is something clearly overlooked here. She also faces off against fellow Kryptonians but in doing so relies on everything she's learned about humanity and her love of humanity, despite how much she misses her home, having actually been old enough to have real memories of her home world and her parents, unlike Clark. She actively fights for free will, choice, and humanity - everything Superman is supposed to do in this movie, but fails to actually show him doing in any way that makes sense. I don't know. I feel like the TV show about Supergirl is doing better than this big budget movie about Superman.

@zhengyingli

5 жыл бұрын

They actually didn't overlook the collateral damage in this movie considering Superman tried moving the fight from populated areas on several occasions but kept getting knocked down by his enemies.

I was trying to articulate why the "batman Begins" flashback format doesn't work here. You pretty much got it. The flash backs felt thrown in at random. Id love to see a re-shuffled edition to this movie.

I'm curious: have you read any of the other takes on Superman's origin? Because if you haven't read Superman: Secret Origin, I really recommend it, as I think it best communicates the themes Man of Steel was attempting at. Especially the theme of "will Clark use his powers for others or for himself" It's shown as a child when he lies to his parents to play sports only to injure his friend. Clark then fears his powers but then comes to value them again when he saves said friends' lives. Then as an adult with his priority set on helping people, it still serves as a narrative challenge since he tries to help out people even though the first folks he meets in Metropolis only care about scamming him. So the question of "should I help people or help myself" keeps mattering from a pragmatic perspective after the moral aspect is answered. Also, Clark's parents encourage him to keep heroing rather than hide, Krypton only matters for 4 pages, and Clark actually saves the poor friend who gets caught in a tornado.

I got halfway through this video before realizing I've seen this movie.

This movie really feels as if it were wholly written in the first draft and WB decides to greenlight it without considering further revisions. That's why there are so many clumsy expositions and thematic inconsistencies that make little to no sense.

Zach Snyder is the worst. He's not a filmmaker, he's a high end gif-maker.

@The80sWolf_

5 жыл бұрын

So you would admitt that Snyder have created visuals that are very powerful?

@trentonnewman9683

5 жыл бұрын

The 80's Wolf powerful images are great, but if all your film is images without any kind of real meaningful content then it’s a bad film

@The80sWolf_

5 жыл бұрын

Trenton Newman Lucky then that mos/bvs is the opposite :)

@trentonnewman9683

5 жыл бұрын

The 80's Wolf Personally, I feel they are both devoid of deeper meaning, although not for lack of trying. I think the ideas both of those films are trying to explore are interesting, but they get really muddled and are very unclear and not well developed. That’s one of a few reasons I don’t like those films, but if you like them, more power to you.

@The80sWolf_

5 жыл бұрын

BASIL!!!!! Βασίλειος Glass is a genius meta-film and another example of critics totally missing the point about that. Shazam I have not seen.

Man of Steel really bothered me because after how ever long of a run time it was, in the end I still didn't know who Clark was. We spent the whole movie focused on him and I still didn't know his personality, his feelings on any of the events, nothing. At about 4:30 I realized that if they structured his dad's speech just before he saved the mining rig, I would have that. And then I realized that if the whole thing was structured differently, it could have been an absolute gem of a movie. The power of editing. Mind blown.

Since the comments were disabled on a post that came just a bit later than this one, I just wanted to say.... I thought the whole box-face thing was a little hokey at first, but your drill-down on larger societal issues and phenomena was an amazing experience. And you were forced to leave so much on the table in the interests of time... but what was presented was so interesting. This is a channel that really makes me think.

I recently 'discovered' your channel (like Columbus 'discovered' the already well populated Americas). Thank you for your videos! I really appreciated them. I always felt uneasy with the Superman mythos and the implied need for humanity to be saved. Now I know I'm not alone to worry about the underlying themes of superheroes movies.

The comment about Clark vs the trucker was perfect.

Thank you Red for teaching me the meaning of Grok

Man of steel has so many thematic shortcomings, which sucks because I remember very much looking forward to this film

Very good analysis!

Man of Steel should've been about zod and Clark bonding at first but then Clark starts to see that zod is fucked up and try to convert/talk him down, ultimately ending in him forced to kill zod because he panicked. Make it a tragic bromance where the two respect and care for each other and fight because of their believes. Its a small change but I think it could elevate this movie.

@Jjrmtv

Жыл бұрын

kind of like in Ben Hur

@borderlineexperimental

Жыл бұрын

@@Jjrmtv yeah except were Ben hurt by the plot of these movies. Or rather the execution of them.

I had a thought about the "truck impaled on logs" vignette. It is... more telling than its initial stupidity. The metaphor of destroying the livelihood of the working class is extremely blatant, even if it wasn't supposed to be. I'd love to talk more about the intersection between media critique and class-aware analysis if you have the time. I know this is an old video, but I hope you see this. It's hard to find ways to get people's attention now -Mike Dale

Honestly the most impressive thing about MoS is how Zack snyder took the most iconic superhero of all time and got him wrong at the most fundamental level.

@keychainere

2 жыл бұрын

Yep. I get people not liking superman (however misguided that may be), but superman himself is the easiest to portray. He’s cheesy; a do gooder, the big blue Boy Scout. Sure if you want to go angsty, keep it as Clark, but the moment he puts the suit on, he’s a beacon of hope for us all. Not this crippling mound of insecurities.

@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285

2 жыл бұрын

@@keychainere There are so many points of failure in this film it borders on being a parody; Clark's parents being objectivists, the entire ending sequence wherein they failed to have anything other then a pointless CGI laden carnage festival, the fact that they tried to go for a grounded and realistic take on a fantastical character (because Nolan was able to make it work with batman you see)... Like it's almost impressive how wrong they got it. Best part though? I thought DC might have read the room with how negative the response was to MoS but instead they decided to double down with BvS.

@keychainere

2 жыл бұрын

@@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285 John Kent dying for… literally no reason? So Clark is a guy that lets his dad die to protect his identity. WTF?! Clark would post it all over Twitter and Instagram if he thought it would save his dad! Who is this guy?! He’s got super powers but he’s not Superman.

@guitarhausdoesntknowwhatac3285

2 жыл бұрын

@@keychainere It's like I said before: Zack got the character fundamentally wrong. Like let's think about the ending fight sequence: completely ignoring how stupid it is that clark is fighting Zod *in metropolis* the fact that this is resolved like a DBZ Larp wastes what would have been a great opportunity to contrast both of these chracters; As a soldier and would be despot Zodd would have percieved his powers as a weapon and it makes sense that he utilizes them in the most direct linear way possible without regard for his surroundings, but Clark has had these his entire life and would have a better understanding of how to utilize them to overcome Zodd's better combat training (because prior to zodd and his entourage showing up he never had to fight a day in his life and theres no way he should be able to stand up to him in this way). Hell, the least they could of done is have him try to save people or minimize the casualties. You know, like a superhero would. Like for christ's sake, superman 2 handled this better when Clark fought Non.

You should make fan edits. You clearly have a great idea of what order to rearrange scenes in and how to convey plot points

There could have been a amazing paralel between klarks space dad and earth dad and his god complex. Space dad says u gotta save everyone and earth dad says you can not ( even indirectly) bring harm to anyone, you are not allowed to interfere and decide fate for others. And like that Klarks god complex is born, he can not let people suffer (like space dad) and he can not kill (earth dad).

I really do love the movie I think it’s beautiful and all themes are relevant to the character! I enjoyed hearing your criticism, it helped me understand why some people didn’t like it which I never understood. And helped me see what the movie order could’ve been. I LOVE THIS VIDEO thank you.

The compliment at the end made me smile.

One change to make the themes make sense: Swap Zod's army with Cadmus and save absolving the sins of krypton (and Zod's army) the sequel

All this time later, "keeping the world small" would have been a great set up to defeating Zod. Supes is able to defeat Zod and the Kryptonians because in their rush to gain the powers of the yellow sun they fail to realize how overwhelming it is. So he outsmarts them by using his mastery of his X-ray vision and hearing to get them to attack each other in the disarray. Voila, it now serves a purpose.

Man, I could listen to your description of the truck stop scene on repeat.

Why'd you stop using the cool puppet?

7:04 This point is such a dumb trope. Just like the punks in Terminator (RIP Bill Paxton 💔) they have no fear when a massive, naked Arnold Schwarzenegger comes at them, just because they don’t know he’s a robot?? WHY WOULD THAT BE THE DECIDING FACTOR IN THIS SITUATION?

I just read "Stranger in a Strange Land" thanks to OSP so I now get the grok.

This guy is pretty great, he just seems a little obsessed with building up to a satisfying climax

I vaguely remember this movie, or at least watching this movie, and was wondering when the flashbacks would end

I always thought the "jerk at the bar" scene in MoS was a nod to the "jerk at the diner" scenes in Superman II. Similar locales, similar situations where Clark is bullied but gets revenge later. Also, both spoil a complex character moment, Clark weathering abuse, with a cheap scene of Superman one-upsmanship. Oh well.

You could argue that the making the world small speech was about showing Clark taking the big scary concept of humanity and distlling that to the people he loves.

The "does humanity hand over Superman or not" thing really should have played out like the bridge scene at the end of Sam Rami's first Spiderman movie. A little less cheesy, maybe to fit with the tone of MoS better but it still should have boiled down to "Superman is one of us and we're not giving him up" in my opinion.

@fightingmedialounge519

5 жыл бұрын

That really wouldn't make sense in this context.

This is exactly why Man of Steel was *almost* my favorite movie of all time, but now remains one of my favorite trailers only. I'd rather rewatch the trailer than the movie.

I think what the major stake was his individual identity. Him having an alternate identity was not a thought for him or his parents. He was trying to find the balance between intervention and lack of intervention. The acceptance by humans come in BvS.

Damn right about first kisses I'm looking at my 10th marriage anniversary this year... and while its hardly our *best* year (thanks Pandemic) we've only come to enjoy eachother more over the years. This year HAS been home to more open communication, and I've gotten to learn some new things about a man I've now known more than half of my years so far-- always a fabulous thing.

the trouble with your analysis is that you assume Zach Snyder was attempting to make a good movie

Destroy a guy's truck (most likely his livelihood, not to mention valuable to the business he worked for) because he got drunk and threw a cup at you. Classy, Superman. Classy.

Great video as always. You overlooked the reason behind the "make the world small" line though, which was to awkwardly set up Clark's upbringing as the reason he can handle the pressure of his powers (which is also thematically relevant, as its his connection to humanity and his family that allows him to triumph over the members of his race and handle the burden of his powers in a larger sense). He says it specifically, "My parents taught me to hone my senses". This is a good attempt by the film, but ultimately too flimsy a metaphor to work well - and further undermined by Zod going "screw it, I can block it out too" in the climax.

Jack from Red Letter Media/Previously Recorded brought me here!

Is there a good fan-edit? Like Star Wars fans re-editing Episodes 1-3 into "Rise of the Empire"?

As you can tell by my avatar, I have a *bit* of an affinity for Superman (lol), and really disliked "Man of Steel" and "Batman V Superman". I loved this video, and would really enjoy your critical take on the rest of it (including the points you mentioned at the end), as well as BvS. Much as I like to examine these things, the skill and detail with which you've examined this (and all your videos I've seen thus far) was impressive, and really should be viewed by anyone in film who wants to make sure their own works don't fall into the same traps. Well done!

How aquatinted is foldy w logs and trucks?

that scene gets us bright urn which has some elements of maximortal

10:31 never noticed this before, but why is there a 12 year told boy in military rig just standing there with the generals?

@morehero1

4 жыл бұрын

Maybe it's just a short woman?

I'm so deeply confused by his sign-off in this video, lol

@aturchomicz821

2 жыл бұрын

We are beautiful? 😳

My impression is that Snyder doesn't understand what good is. For him good means better than others. Sup arc is 'you dont't have answer to lesser beings' and be all you can be, no restraints. The struggles of being good - is fear of rejection, judgement and envy of others, just other people and society bringing you down.. Zach doesn't understand that powers is not what a superhero make. Superman has powers because he is an alien but he is a hero because of the moral upbringing of his earth parents.

that's why in CW smallvile Clark was anonymous, he hid his alter ego they would have used that technique to make the story better

I miss you Dan Olson

great analysis :)

what about the theme about free will or predetermined destiny that people in krypton had ? the fact that zods entire purpose of life was to protect krypton and by the end of the movie there is no longer a krypton to protect. it’s a great way to setup a villain in my opinion

I tend to think all of Clark's doubts are solved in his first scene as an adult. The unnamed fisherman that I guess is Bibbo Bibbowski goes out of his way to save the "Greenhorn," risking his own life for someone he doesn't like. That represents the altruism of humanity that Clark is unsure about, despite all the morality problems that come later. But we're supposed to see that moment as "Clark is treated like crap" by the way it is directed.

Do you think this movie could be 'corrected' by a fan-edit? Assemble the setups and payoffs in the right order. It might be harder to create an edit where some of the theme conflicts/resolutions could be inferred (since no actual footage of this exists) but it feels like there's a lot of material there that COULD tell this 'better' version, somehow.

Sums up so much of the lost opportunity MoS was. It's like they put out some interesting ideas on where they could take this Superman but they followed through on none of them.

It may be more than a little off topic, but you really need to start a band. Abundant Man Flesh and the Meat Mountains

I love this movie. I've defended this video since I saw it the midnight of its release. I defend it in grand detail. I love this video and agree with it 100%.

the part with him in the school closet was the only part that resonated with me. No. not because of that. His heightened sensitivity and his inability to harness it was his debilitating weakness. its of course exagerated but it can be comparable to those perceived to have mental and emotional issues.HSPs and others. our weaknesses could possibly be overlooked and uncontrolable strengths.

I cannot wait until you do your analysis of Batman vs Superman.

@DavidB75311

8 жыл бұрын

I concur. There are so many people criticizing BvS but they aren't well structured analytical commentaries about the themes and failings to properly articulate ideas. Take your time and we'll be here waiting for you when you're ready to come back Dan.