Thanks again to lord Crofts for hopping back on the channel. Who would you pick for each of these archetypes? Also I'll edit this comment with a link to his video, we did one for his channel too :) EDIT - it's here kzread.info/dash/bejne/momoqNJ7oNWfk9Y.html (also pls subscribe)

@wimpybanana7598

7 ай бұрын

You were gonna say Amane for mids dispenser if you didn't have to chose a different game weren't you.

@pikachuattack542

7 ай бұрын

You were gonna say Amane for Mids Dispenser and I'm somewhat sad you didn't get JMCrofts reaction to that.

If I had a dollar for every time LK mentions Half Moon Kohaku in a video… 😂

@crppledizzle9374

7 ай бұрын

hyperinflation would go crazy

@screamordie1000

5 ай бұрын

The chracter was ridiculous though😂 who wouldnt

Archetypes are kind of funny in that respect. Sometimes they represent a character's gameplan (Rushdown, Zoner, Grappler, Trapper, Setplay, Footsies) while other times they simply reflect the tools the character uses to achieve their goal without expressing their gameplan much (Stance, Item Throw, Rekka, Shoto). It's a difference between game plan and play style, I think, but maybe that's the post 2020s internet person in me who has nothing better to do with his time than want to re-label things.

Some notes about Miss Fortune: her head toss move is actually a strike invuln move, her head can cancel normals into specials on wiff AND her headless super lets you get a combo afterwards. Top 2 and not 2!

@th3top0

8 ай бұрын

I mean I don't think jm actually knows much bout sg. Should've talked about other characters he actually knows

@TheZiadGuides

8 ай бұрын

@@th3top0 hey don’t disrespect my goat he got top 8 @evo 2013. He just doesn’t know much about the current meta cuz he ABANDONED US 😭 COME BACK TO US JMCROFT WE MISS YOU

Might as well throw Z Bully in there for a fast grablers as well. My man virtually suffered zero speed penalty and got standard movement. Also, best zoner in the game for some reason. Also, BEST anti assist for some reason.

@Jp63a

8 ай бұрын

Broly ain't a grappler, he's a menace

@zhaoyun255

8 ай бұрын

@@Jp63a GO BROLY GO GO GO!!!

@PotofGlue

8 ай бұрын

They kinda backed themselves into a corner making so many movement options universal, fighterZ kinda cant have a proper grappler

@rebound1340

8 ай бұрын

​@PotofGlue fun fact the first version of 16 had hard knockdown on all of his grabs instead of sliding. He was basically a normal grappler but he still had all of the speed so he was unbelievably broken

@scnoz1430

7 ай бұрын

He hasn’t been the best zoner in the game for a while lmao

Having Dudley, a character defined by having both a great overhead and low confirm, as just mids is so funny.

When I think of "speed grapplers" I think of "from the top rope" style characters like El Fuerte, Ramon, Beowulf and R. Mika

@WolfKnight-it1hc

8 ай бұрын

I feel they used the term grappler very loosely here, I think you need to have more than 1 command grab or hitgrab (since apparently people don't consider them one and the same like I do) in order to be classified as a grappler.

@blgdoesthings4122

8 ай бұрын

@@WolfKnight-it1hcPotemkin…

@WolfKnight-it1hc

8 ай бұрын

@@blgdoesthings4122 potemkin has 2 command grabs buster and heat knuckle(which is a hit grab), I just feel that saying any character with a command grab makes them a grappler just muddies the water.

@WolfKnight-it1hc

8 ай бұрын

@@blgdoesthings4122 like they could've used Laura, R.mika, el fuerte, Ángel, Ramon or literally any actual grappler instead of 2 characters that just happen to have a command grab while being good at other playstyles.

@thebreakawayoperation

8 ай бұрын

​@@WolfKnight-it1hcHit-grabs aren't really like command grabs though because they can be blocked in the same way that hits are. I don't think grapplers depend on the number of command grabs as much as how integral they are to their gameplan and how much damage they do via their grabs. I think it more makes sense to divide them into traditional grapplers (Zangief, Potemkin, etc.), pixie/fast grapplers (Shermie, Laura, etc.), and combo grapplers (Makoto, etc.). Combo grapplers only use their grabs to open up opponents for combos, not to deal the majority of their damage. Those are just my categories though.

*jm starts to open sg* Squiggly: “let’s fucking g-“ Jm: “Ms fortune”

One thing I love about LK is that any time Elphelt is mentioned he feels the need to say something about how that character was broken and unfair. Like he's right lol but this man is traumatized hahaha

I will never get tired of listening to LK talk about the funny maid character. Thanks for the great video! Heading over to JMCrofts to watch the other half when it drops!

I love seeing you and JM together in all these videos, you two mesh really well and you both bring so much to each other's channels

“Lk and guest talk about fighting stuff they love” is my favorite genre of vid actually. Keep it up man!

Squigly I think is another great example of a stance character in Skullgirls, stance canceling is very important in both her neutral and her combos, she can do some insane resets and she gets to combo off her overhead on hit and pretty much keep her turn on block if she has her stance charged.

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Got the game last month Still have no clue Combo Trials? 10%. AT MOST! XD

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

And I have BlazBlue, GGXXAC and a few others! I'll learn eventually, but...

Woohoo Valk remembered, the power of the suit shall never die baybee

22:16 "when it exists, i think it's very strong" *cries in bullet*

@chungusumungus4004

8 ай бұрын

The secret is that Bullet isn't actually fast (and wasn't even a grappler in CP)

@cerdi_99

8 ай бұрын

@@chungusumungus4004 well she's fast if you compare her with the actual grappler, which is the entire point of the arquetype. Also she didnt have her grounded "mix" cg, but she still had all the other grabs (that sadly only get used in combos). Also also, she had the cg super

The forbidden archetype: Anime swordsman with Down+B counter

i think an important aspect of ms fortune to bring up is that while she’s powerful on point, the head mechanic messes with some of what would be her best assists.

nah man the arcsys "let them combo off of throw" era was so based i love throw in blazblue

I understand why he chose Kohaku, but I'm sad LK didn't mention my girl Bullet. Her entire gimmick is being a rushdown grappler that has unique movement using her grabs and heat up mechanic. Just like any other grappler, she'll play defensively until she can explode you and steal wins off of simple mistakes, but she does it by having movement tools that are also neutral callouts instead of just having a lot of health and armor.

Honestly, when you said mids dispenser I immediately went to "Honest Mids Michael."

If I had to offer an archetype to examine here, It'd be the "One Chance" or less generously the "Robbery" character. Street Fighter 5 was full of these thanks to V-Trigger, but the stand-outs are Oro, Balrog and G. In Guilty Gear Strive you've got Goldlewis and (by the game's definition, not mine) Nago. In Street Fighter 6 you've got Marissa and Aki. Characters who are designed to kind of struggle in neutral or disadvantage (but not always) in exchange for essentially being able to put themselves in a game-winning situation off of a single interaction.

@terry.1428

7 ай бұрын

How does Aki do this ?

@kevingriffith6011

7 ай бұрын

@@terry.1428 If she lands one good hit that gives her a knockdown with poison she can be incredibly threatening on the next hit. Most of what my experience is with the character comes from Broski, not personal experience though. She has some of the highest damage combos in the game if the opponent is poisoned before the first hit, and her best combo ender gives her a mid-screen safe jump AND poisons her target, so it's not unlikely that you're poisoned while she's pressuring you.

@Draconilian

7 ай бұрын

​@@terry.1428aki gets it from having great corner carry and setting up corner puddle.

In Skullgirls ms. Fortune's patch history is top 1 > top 1 > top 1 > top 1

first character that comes to mind for me in terms of stance characters is Siegfried from SoulCal actually. SC5 was the first fighting game i ever tried to learn properly and it was the first time I heard the term stance after playing tekken and earlier SCs casually and it was cool to learn that this was a like, universal term. Got me looking into other FGs and into the genre as a whole!

23:40 Heihachi is probably the only underperforming mid dispenser in modern FGs, since in Tekken 7 he doesn't have any lows and all his throws are reactable

The most "fast grappler" kind of character to me has to be EVA-Beatrice from Ougon Musou Kyoku. She has a 0 frame, invincible command grab that does a fuck ton of damage and leads to oki. And she's also a literal child and has an air dash because this is that kinda game.

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Evatrice is CHILDISH... Not really a child. But I have seen the game... XD

thank you for talking about fast grapplers, it’s the archetype i always try to main but there aren’t enough of them :(

I love these collab videos! Please do more stuff with JMcrofts, you two come up with some of the most interesting FG conversations

Hwoarang is the first character I played when starting to really learn how fighting games worked. Stance characters always hit a spot after that.

I think that Alex/Abel in the SF series could be Fast Grapplers. While Alex still may be clunky in normal movement, Alex has numerous ways to get close to the opponent for Strike-Throw scenarios. Abel may have more of a case, since Step-kick and Roll allows him to really schmoove to mix the opponent. ESPECIALLY on Oki.

Combo videos are pretty choice, loving work you’ve been doing as these are nice to watch.

I need some more parts of this, i love discussing characters that not many people talk about

I think that also could be eliza from skullgirls. I mean, she can change all his moveset for a hyper armer skeleton, with good speed , damage and overhead. Is almost the same like valkenhian, kinda.

SoulCalibur 6 has a bunch of stance characters, especially Siegfried and Voldo. Siegfried switching stances and doing mixups that way seems to be the way to play properly, because he's otherwise rather slow with his big weapon. Chaining his attacks into stances makes him quite strong. Voldo was always a confusing character. I think he was more annoying with stances in older titles like SoulCalibur 3. He has ways to turn his back on his opponent, and with his back turned he's got a full different moveset. Having his back turned can catch people off guard, as most characters are more vulnerable with their backs turned.

i’m not really sure if ms fortune would count as a stance switcher but more as a puppet with H being head imput

jmcrofts didn't mention one more thing about makoto on top of all the things she has: her dash punch on hit immediately leads into a low/throw mixup which loops into itself

i love the design of makoto so much. the slow methodical karate master who waits for an opening and then strikes at lightning speed and destroys you

@LordKnightfgc

7 ай бұрын

Thought you were talking about Makoto from BlazBlue first 🥹

Dudley is one of the only SF characters that has an overhead and low that he can combo from lol. He's definitely not "all mids".

i'm so in love with this kind of fgc content

Every character is a shoto. Shotos do moves. Got moves? Thats a shoto. (But seriously, bring back pixie grapplers)

Iori is the goat shoto. Top tier in almost every game, sometimes only high tier, but no one ever complains. He is the unofficial main character of KoF. (He's also a grappler and a rekka character)

I know its not really common for this channel but I think stance character all star is probably Xiaoyu on Tekken. Her movement, evasion, damage, neutral, everything comes from raw stance cancels. Tekken is known for its stances, and of the characters in tekken, Xiaoyu is the most stance-based one of them.

Need install characters! That archetype is too fun. Also, no Dizzy in fast grapplers? smh.

@lavellelee5734

8 ай бұрын

How is install different than stance?😅

@HeirofDacia

8 ай бұрын

​@@lavellelee5734An install usually either empowers existing moves or adds new ones, often times both at once, either temporarily or permanently. Stances vary between "This guy turns into a new character with entirely different moves" and "Hold this button/move down to get some moves, while losing access to stuff like blocking".

I love pixie/combo grapplers. Bullet, laura, and angel are some of my favourites to play. But those types never seem to make it to the roster anymore

I always think of eyedol when someone talks about stance characters, because he’s the most interesting stance character I’ve ever played. He has best in class zoning and Rushdown but the stance switch is random, which is so cool!

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Soulcalibur Tira as well. At least in ONE game...

Even tho he isn’t like top tier or especially powerful, Lei Wulong has always been THE stance character for me. Like the ways he just flows and transitions into everything is peak stance game design.

how did he mention headroll without saying its a safe on block dp 😭

Having been no life-ing Tekken for the last few months, I forgot how weird mix-ups worked in Street Fighter, since most overheads are seeable and don’t reward much. Either just plus frames or maybe a knockdown if it’s a special

THE John Crofts HIMSELF!

yeah I'm a intelligent stance character enjoyer. Yes I love Abigail from Street Fighter 5.

There are more archetypes to be discussed my favourite one is the characters with special meters ( characters that uses a second bar or a deferent bar from the cast) like hakumen order sol or robobky

I can confirm, as a Ky main in Strive, people hate fighting my fair and honest gameplay. (I literally 214k round start once (and it worked))

Mr. Croft, headless fortunes supers and other confirms get crazier and better. She’s not weaker she’s more buff sir. For instance she can’t combo off her air and ground super but with her head off she can blast it over and pick up with otg. Also, you mention sg and stances? Why not the stancel queen herself, Squigly?

For the rule book you don’t have to Kara upper cut and can do a normal one vs Ryu and certain members of the cast just a tip. There’s a table out there to learn what’s possible on each char

When i think about Stance characters i INSTANTLY think Phoenix Wright feom UMvC3, my absolute favorite Marvel character.

Idk if there are more archetypes because i would like to see more videos on this.

in SF6, Cammy is the best grappler 🤣

What do you mean just mids? He has a 12 frame overhead that leads into vortex.

@guitaroach

8 ай бұрын

And thats why you clicked on the video. Get baited. Dont forget to like & subscribe.

@TheSoulReaver

8 ай бұрын

I was about to make this exact comment. Dudley is the definition of strong high/low on 3S.

tbh i feel like "stance character" occupies a very different category than the rest here, which tend to imply a kind of gameplan. stances are more like a feature of a character's toolset, which are often integrated into a broader gameplan but don't really imply a consistent one between them

Valk had a dropkick, AND THEY TOOK IT AWAY??

Virtua Fighter is kinda allergic to simple archetypes (ie there are no zoners, rushdowns, or shotos/rekkas, and only one traditional grappler (who in many ways doesn't feel like one due to the surrounding meta being so different)), and doesn't really have tiers, so it's never really going to get mentioned in this type of video. But an interesting characteristic of the series is that most characters have stances, command grabs, or both, and that makes it worthy of some discussion here even if none of its characters have ever been oppressively strong. Lei Fei and Vanessa Lewis are both pretty much the epitome of stance characters, just in completely different ways. Vanessa has two complete and non-overlapping movesets, effectively being two different characters, and can switch between them with a button. It's pretty hard to be more "stance character" than that. And Lei Fei has seven stances, where pretty much every move will switch stance, which gives him a very complex but ultimately relatively predictable flowchart. Again, it's pretty hard to get more "stance character" than that. Kage Maru and El Blaze are both pretty much the epitome of fast grapplers, also in very different ways. Now, in a game where every character loves being at range zero and there's no KBD tech, the challenge for grapplers isn't really to get in range, but rather to get in at the right angle. Kage does this by jumping, diving between legs, and attacking from side/backturned states. El Blaze on the other hand has the unique ability to sprint and literally run circles around opponents, as well as a particularly well-developed toolkit for taking advantage of (ie bouncing off of) walls (an aspect of his character that exists in an interesting contrast with Kage, whose throws are uniquely good at ring outs, which in turn makes their gameplans uniquely dependent on the choice of stage).

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Thanks for this!

Haven't watched an LK video in some time, damn, we got old.

My favorite stance character is Tira (SoulCalibur). :D

The best stance character is obviously Hit. Name me one other character who will tell you that This -> _/_/ is the stance.

I really got baited with the Kouma only for him to whip out the Kohaku lmao I should've known XD

We need Speedkicks collab so he can talk about the best stance character Hwoarang

I don't have 35 minutes to spare, so forgive any ignorance if you discuss this in the video, but 3s Dudley in particular could never be "just" a mid-dispenser because of his disgusting SA links. If you block crouching too much he's just gonna hit you with 6HK and you're eating a corkscrew blow. If you block standing you're gonna get hit with a 2HK, and if you're playing a female, you're eating 60%. This leads into a rose on wakeup mixup AGAIN for the round.

Valkenhiem is so fucking rad. I would play him but when I get punished as him I feel so tilted since he's hard to play.

I think Makoto is more of a "combo grappler". She uses her command grabs to start combos, not to deal major damage by itself.

@EXFrost

7 ай бұрын

Just extra steps, still has the same effect. A grappler with only hitgrabs is not a grappler. Its a command grab which is used a lot by the character

i hope there is SFV Dan on mids dispenser :( gosh darnit JUSTICE FOR SFV DAN

I'm sad the main stance canceler of SkullGirls (Squigly) wasn't chosed by JMC, you know what would make may heal me? Getting a refund from Hidden Variable after they removed my artwork and soviet narrator.

Kenshi in the newest version of Mortal Kombat is another Stance + Puppet character

@Ramsey276one

7 ай бұрын

Sento Kenshi!

You should also do lockdown next time!

where is rj from power ranger battle for grid as a fast grappler

Can't believe you locked jmcroft in the shadow realm just to record this smh

I want to enter Master raven from Tekken 7 as the best stance character. She essentially has 3 stances; backturn, shadow step, and haze. She is the master of baiting people by turning her back to the opponent manually or by whiffing/finishing strings and has an entire different move and combo list from back turn. Her haze stance gives her mixup and movement options with teleports attacks and her shadow step stance severely limits her normals but gives her very good poke options, makes her dash forward and crushes high moves (same with like haze stance). SHe is basically the queen of feints which lets her play whatever style she wants so long as you condition the opponent right. kzread.info/dash/bejne/h4ShrNSEe7utqLg.html . This is sacred knowledge but tekken 8 is upon us so it doesnt matter anymore. It shows how conditioning people with her stances lets her Raven adopt any playstyle she likes.

I think fo regular grapplers accent core plus potemkin needs to be represented. Top 1 in the game and its not even close.

Usually I find that pros rank their mains low but you seem to really highly rank your mains… minus baiken

Why is Dudley in the thumbnail as a mid dispenser when he has a 15f overhead lmao.

@yeahey5947

8 ай бұрын

Cause he still has great mids? He just also has an overhead lmao

Song name at 23:17?

Nominate most egregious toilet bully next time around 😊

Is Zappa stance character? his "puppets" don't function like normal puppets.

I'm right there with jmcrofts vs Mitsuru, I play kanji and akihiko...

Which ps3 Xbox 360 fighting games still playable online

Love stance characters

My favourite stance character is Siegfried

How y'all talked about best set play character and not mention roa, that man is a menace in mmaa

Soul Calibur is full of stance characters

Imagine talking about fast grapplers *in Melty* and not even mentioning Sacchin. Isn't it sad...

commenting before watching

you forgot about the best grappler in soul calibur 6, Ivy.

I feel like stance character is not exactly an archetype, it's basically a very in depth feature like a fireball or instant overhead. Like what on earth do SF6 Chun Li, Pokemon Trainer, XRD Elphelt and Valkenhayn have in common besides the stance change?

@HeirofDacia

8 ай бұрын

Grapplers are grapplers due to the command grab being central to their game plan. Stance characters are just like that, but with stances.

Wolf form is an install, not a stance imo

Skullgirls are hard as dogshit man I would never touch that game. Tournaments are HYPE as fuck though. That Sonicfox tournament was badass

Can someone define G from SFV. What archetype is this man.

@kevingriffith6011

8 ай бұрын

If I *had* to put him in an archetype that was already listed, I'd call him "rushdown" or "one chance/robbery", but that's vague and doesn't really tell the whole story. He wants to get in on you and make you so afraid to push buttons that you wait 12 long, beautiful frames for his command grab to come out. He gets great tools across the board in exchange for his awful defense and slight reliance on his level-up system (though let's be real, for most of his life level-ups were a luxury, V-Trigger was what brought you back into the game).

@calebstanerstratsshop1834

8 ай бұрын

Rush down makes sense for sure. He's such a cool and annoying character.

WE LOVE MITSURU

Julia from tekken might be a fast grappler. I think Cervantes from soul calibur is a mid machine

Dudley... only has mids? He's literally known for his 50/50s in 3s, this thumbnail goofy.

@user-cc3ef7qh1x

Ай бұрын

It's not Dudley, touristboy

@Wanderer-lj1gt

Ай бұрын

@@user-cc3ef7qh1x oh he updated the thumbnail lmao

@Wanderer-lj1gt

Ай бұрын

@@user-cc3ef7qh1xit used to be Dudley throwing a rose

You're not a true stance character unless you can stance dance 😤

I'm pissed that Gen wasnt discussed... Ms. Fortune.... Ugh.

Noooooooo LK, Dudley is a 50/50 character not a mids dispenser noooooooooooooo.