There's a higher res version of the final ranking chart available here: treantmonk.files.wordpress.com/2021/07/setfighter.png

@brianpious3242

3 жыл бұрын

Thank you!

@arnijulian6241

2 жыл бұрын

Arcane archer is an easy fix, just double the use of arcane shot per rest at lv 5-7 & double ever ready shot. The player is happy & the party is still generally more powerful but now the magic bow does more magic bow. Even with this it falls short of the Battle master by a good margin!

In an environment where most d&d youtubers hedge heavily with “this is just my opinion” I really appreciate that you also say it’s just your opinion but still heavily imply your opinion is the best one with the occasional “come at me”.

@flavioromano8754

3 жыл бұрын

Omg hell ya, i love that treantmonk is very objective in his analises

@MrVeps1

2 жыл бұрын

Well, since the goal of DnD is to have fun with friends, what's "objectively best" might vary between groups, but how strong a character is in a fight can be objectively measured. Treantmonk does his work, instead of listing subclasses in order of how awesome they sound, he usually crunches numbers and compares different metrics. If you compare subclasses on objective metrics, you can reach an objective conclusion. There will of course be biases inherent to Treantmonk's experience with DnD; if your DM uses pure theatre of the mind and dislikes allowing you to tactically aim AOE spells for the greatest effect, your assumptions about the damage potential of a fireball might be very different from someone used to strict, grid-based combat with the fireball hitting every miniature the paper template touches. That's where the opinion-disclaimer comes in, after all.

@dominicl5862

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrVeps1 good insight right here ^

@youtubecensorship842

Жыл бұрын

Confidence is infectious and a rare treat in the modern era.

@xolotltolox7626

2 ай бұрын

​@@dominicl5862no, there is no insight there, he is just wrong When talking about how good/bad somethign is from a power standpoint, that is necassarily objective

Battlemaster getting penalized for being "too complex to manage" feels a bit silly in a channel all about optimizing spell lists. While not quite as strong as straight spellcasting, the maneuvers seem versatile and strong enough to warrant a low B.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

I considered low B.

@608midshipcool

3 жыл бұрын

Too complex when all you're going to use is parry and menacing attack.

@bootybuh

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple Having Arcane Archer and Battlemaster in the same tier is a hard sell. Battlemaster can combo with so many other classes/etc and Arcane Archer is the most limiting subclass I can think of.

@Behindthejab

3 жыл бұрын

Battle master dramatically improved the chance of that -5 to hit plus 10 to damage abilities so well that I can’t see it as a B.

@poilboiler

3 жыл бұрын

If you can't figure out battlemaster maneuvers the only thing you'd be able to do with a spellbook is to hit someone with it.

Honestly I'm way more interested in the martial subclasses ranking. Sure, spellcasters are great but they always have their spells. For martials the subclass is everything.

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

Fighters and rogues get extra feats, I guess Lvl 6 and 8 ASIs are make it or break it for fighter.

The slooow drag to B then jump to A with a "come at me" got a chuckle out of me.

@KoryLunaa

3 жыл бұрын

Man came out SWINGGGINGGGG godayummmm

The three I want to see the most are going to be the last 3 videos, but at least we get to laugh at monks next video.

@poilboiler

3 жыл бұрын

Straight S tiers!

@SnarkyRogue

3 жыл бұрын

@@poilboiler Shit tier, maybe

@dylanba5251

3 жыл бұрын

My prediction is that those 3 classes have such a strong base class that they aren't very spread out. Sorcerers are focused around B Tier with maybe Storm hitting C and Clockwork hitting A. Warlocks are focused around B Tier with Undead hitting C and Genie hitting A. Wizards are half A (Divination, War, Enchanter, etc), half B (Necromancer, Transmuter, etc) and Chronurgist being the final S Tier unless you fix Tiny Huts midcombat.

@jackcantdraw

3 жыл бұрын

@@dylanba5251 I suspect warlocks might end up down in C because of their tight budget

@mattbriddell9246

3 жыл бұрын

Ah yes, I'm sure we'll see plenty of S and A-tier ranks coming up in the next video...

You mention reading somewhere that Champions are one of the most played subclasses. This is most likely due at least in part to the fact that they're available on D&D Beyond without purchasing anything. FWIW, my first foray into 5E after not playing D&D for over 10 years included a player playing a Battle Master who didn't use a maneuver ONCE. He would have been more effective as a Champion, because he would have at least crit more often. Just couldn't teach/remind him to use them.

@chrisdin4109

3 жыл бұрын

Champions get expanded crit range which is good for any martial dip.

@darthwikkie

3 жыл бұрын

1) There is an opportunity cost associated with any level dip that depending on the build may or may not be worth what you give up. 2) Most crit fishing builds I can think of are better served taking Elven Accuracy and finding ways to get advantage. Also dipping Champion in at least some of those builds isn't as good as alternatives. 3) As long as you're not about to try to sell me on an Assassin build that gets 10,000 on a surprise crit in round one IF if can get surprise but is trash otherwise, I'd like to know more of what you mean.

I feel like the hate towards Purple Dragon Knight vs Champion might be in part to that it actually has some really interesting features that could make a really unique fighter, if only they came online sooner and could be used more often. Meanwhile, Champion has the most basic features possible, which makes it less disappointing when it's bad.

@andrewshandle

3 жыл бұрын

Champion sort of feeds on the fact that a lot of player don't really understand the basic math of 19-20 crits. To most it's "doubling my crits", which technically is true, but as Chris correctly stated it's only giving you an extra .35 (or so) extra damage per dice roll. Doubling your number of crits just _sounds_ like it's way better than it is.

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewshandle I only disagree with champions because of how easy it is to stack damage/extra effects on crits. Anything with big or numerous dice will perform ok, specially if you also get reckless attack. It’s not hard to go champion 6 then barb or pally 2. Playing half orcs, using elven accuracy or getting the damage type feats all allow your crits to pack more of a punch. It’s not super powerful but the more you invest in the strategy the easier it gets to have use during combat

@andrewshandle

3 жыл бұрын

@@Booklat1 but there are better ways to build a crit-fisher build if that is what you want. Also, just look at all the work you are doing to make it viable, yet 90% of the player base doesn’t do this, they pick a subclass and just stick with it which is what this ranking is based on.

@fenzelian

3 жыл бұрын

In general people aren't good at intuitively understanding the probability of low-probability events. Crits are fun and exciting, so getting more crits sounds good. The human mind is not naturally going to be good at figuring out how much better critting on 19 is over critting on 20 - it's similar to how most people overvalue Stunning Strike because the times when it works are fun and memorable.

@mattgopack7395

3 жыл бұрын

Champions is also always on - the benefits aren't anything massive in most cases, but the PDK's ones also feel very low impact... but only happen a few times. I'd also say a champion seems easier to make useful - a 2 lvl dip in barbarian or ranger can give them more damage increase, or half-orc with greataxe and GWM, etc. It's not too hard to think of a build where it's adding a fairly sizable amount of damage, while still being a very simple option for players that don't really want to think. PDK doesn't fill that niche - it is built to appeal towards players that want to choose when to use their abilities I think, but then doesn't give that nearly as much control (or impact) as other fighter subclasses made for that.

I'll add my vote to those defending the Samurai's Fighting Spirit - until someone can cast Foresight on you, all other forms of Advantage are situational and can be negated (without imposing disadvantage). Familiars can be killed and vision play is defeated by light, various senses, and different forms of dispel. Until someone casts Foresight, Fighting Spirit is the surest way of getting advantage on all your attacks in a round.

@johndevlin9225

3 жыл бұрын

Other than reckless attack, which has its own downside, but is unlimited in use, doesn't take up your bonus action, and comes packaged with rage.

@ihave2cows

3 жыл бұрын

@@johndevlin9225 reckless attack comes with the caveat of being a barbarian, though. And that's fine for a dip, but it does slow down your progression, and pure barbarians don't scale past level 5.

@utkarshgaur1942

3 жыл бұрын

@@johndevlin9225 True! Can't believe that slipped my mind. I tend to make Samurai archers so I totally forgot about Reckless Attack for melee.

@johndevlin9225

3 жыл бұрын

@@ihave2cows I'd argue that a fighter x/barbarian 2, with at least 5 fighter levels, is stronger offensively than a fighter x, with maybe the exception of levels 11, 12 and 20, and always stronger defensively. It gets wonkier with other martials and needs a bit more work due to spellcasting and str requirements, but the barbarian dip is incredibly strong for fighters, and can be very effective for most martials.

@wazzledog1007

3 жыл бұрын

Archer sam is definitely satisfying.

I think high amount of play that Champion sees is due to its simplicity. I’ve had numerous players pick it specifically because of its lack of complexity which has value in and of itself

@alextrollip7707

2 жыл бұрын

Since most stats will be from Dnd beyond or adventurers league. Champion is the "free" subclass. It's the one everyone gets without buying any books.

@wassentme1891

Жыл бұрын

I'll argue that tracking crits on 19s is not super convenient, adding half proficiency if not proficient is a bit wonky, and Samurai is much cooler. If Champions could flat turn 19s into 20s for all D20 Tests, that would be cool.

Putting the Battlemaster high in B-tier is my strongest disagreement in this series so far, by a wide margin. I, too, am a proponent of spellcaster supremacy, but you really sold this one short. The Battlemaster has had a strong run since the beginning of the game, when it compared surprisingly favorably to the Eldritch Knight, the other arguable best Fighter at the time. But the Battlemaster has only grown *more* powerful, not less, with the introduction of additional fighting styles and maneuvers, because much of that power came from their versatility to suit many different roles depending how they are built in the first place. I agree it falls short of the Echo Knight and Rune Knight, but not by much. I expected you, Chris, to recognize the relative complexity of selecting maneuvers to be an asset, not a detriment. By now, we have options to improve offense, improve defense, protect allies, and even bolster checks outside of combat, ensuring that your superiority dice never go to waste. Even on days with little or no combat, high level Battlemasters can contribute more effectively than most other spell-less characters. This variety negates the ostensible problem of having too many similar maneuvers competing for a limited resource simultaneously, before it ever comes up. If your argument for reducing the Battlemaster's rank is that players who don't know better often select maneuvers that largely affect weapon accuracy and thus compete with each other, then I think you might be inviting a dangerous double standard in what is supposed to be an objective ranking of mechanical effectiveness. One could argue that every single spellcaster subclass should be at least one rank lower than what you've awarded simply because it is *possible* to build a character with a list full of redundant, underpowered, or niche spells.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

Whether I put the BM at the bottom of B tier or the top of C tier it ends up 17th of 50 subclasses so far. The reason for the C tier is because it fit the criteria I set down for C more accurately, but it's overall power ranking actually is the same either way.

@CheefChaos

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple thank you for the content but this guy hits the nail on the head. The caveat you made: "It's a limited pool & you can pick situational/non ideal abilities" can be said for Magic classes too.

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

Champion and BM suffered a bit from that yes And the funny thing is, champion is not even complex, just complex to optimise

@3phemaral

3 жыл бұрын

Tanks and Strikers are always going to get screwed in D&D. The question is, have you ever seen a combatant-class pull a “showstopper” with their *class abilities* that made you go “Woah…do the rules say that?” Barbarian, Hexblade, Gloomstalker, Paladin, Bladesinger - I can check off a lot of subclasses. Are they super flexible? Some more, some less…but I’ve seen them all pull of some crazy stuff at least a couple of times. I’ve seen Battlemaster fighters played well, and seen their maneuvers used in clever ways. I think the first 5e campaign I DMed had a variant human PAM-Battlemaster. But, what made him an effective player-character combo was his feat selection, including taking VH/PAM from the start…whatever he did with the maneuvers wasn’t his “wow-factor”. The first time I agreed to let somebody take Echo Knight As a DM, he hit 3rd level and I was like…Woah…do the rules say that? That is the difference. The subclass ability is the showstopper, all by itself. Rune Knight is just as good, and in the same way. The only reason I’d put EK at A is that the core of the echo mechanic is amazing, and an unlimited use ability. Thinking about it that way…if a Battlemaster had their maneuvers as “always on” (maybe one per attack or per turn) choices I don’t think that would be broken. Most of them don’t invoke any supernatural power…so it’s hard to see how you can forget how to Riposte. A battlemaster that didn’t have expendable dice wouldn’t be more OP than a EK.

@morgothbauglir4898

2 жыл бұрын

@@3phemaral I disagree. A ranged BM with menacing and/or precision attack “always on” would be pretty scary. While not as flashy as what’s in the toolboxes of some other subclasses, something like that would make me or any other DM do a double take. Also, the BM can already almost use one maneuver per turn (depending on the campaign) or so. So it’s already scary and easily optimizable imo.

Battlemaster and Arcane Archer do not belong in the same tier

@oldmanandrew

3 жыл бұрын

It’s not even close.

@erikbaumgarten739

3 жыл бұрын

Battlemaster in C Tier is a crime against civilization^^

@devin5201

3 жыл бұрын

Battle Master is the fighteriest fighter there is, if I'm playing a fighter and I'm not feeling the call flavor wise to any other subclass that's the one I'm picking it should at the very least be a B rank.

@johneubank8543

3 жыл бұрын

I just saw this after saying the same thing. Yep. BM is at least a B. AA is D. He knew he was making a mistake as he gave AA a C ranking, and you can see this even more - with his hedging - as he gives BM the same ranking. He knew he was messing up but for some reason had locked-in and didn't change...yikes. I like Treantmonk, but any human can have an off day.

@johncostello4565

3 жыл бұрын

Agree in general, but on a continuum BM is nearly B and Arcane Archer is nearly D. They’re far closer to being split across three tiers than they are to each other.

You argued two different directions on the Cavalier, saying that enemies always move away to say Unwavering Mark is bad and then that they never move away to say that Hold The Line is bad. It can't happen both ways, so either way one of them will be effective. I played one for over a year and generally the DM avoided giving me the extra attack as best he could, which meant I was an EXTREMELY effective tank which let the rest of the party focus on damage. They don't have the advantage of rage like the Ancestral Guardian but tend to have much higher AC (especially with Warding Maneuver), and can mark multiple creatures per turn which came up a decent amount, so I'd put them together in C rank.

@Jeff55369

2 жыл бұрын

I never had the opportunity to play it, but I did theory craft a Caviler with polearm master, sentinel, and mobile that rocked a glave. I also chose the tunnel fighter fighting style. Once the character reaches 10th level, the ability to always keep the enemy locked down seemed way too good to pass up. The glave has a range of 10. When the enemy first enters your weapon's range, they provoke an opportunity attack. If they manage to move 5 feet within your range, they provoke an opportunity attack. If they try to disengage they provoke an opportunity attack. None of these require your reaction due to the tunnel fighter fighting style, and due to sentinel, if you hit, their movement becomes 0. On your turn, you're able to move toward them if they stay at 10 feet, wail on them (and use unwavering mark if applicable) then disengage with the mobile feat (which prevents opportunity attacks) and then repeat. There really doesn't seem like there's a better option for keeping melee monsters locked down in terms of movement than this class.

@benjaminmeyer2139

2 ай бұрын

Is there a necromancer around? Because NECRO-THREAD! (Because Cavalier needs some love) Yeah, I noticed the Unwavering/Hold the Line discrepency too. I have been playing a Cavalier fighter for around 3 years in my campaign and I am almost TOO effective at tanking and being sticky. Even with "intelligent" enemies, it just takes one smack to stop them from running away from you regardless of Sentinel or HTL stopping them. Multiple enemies try to avoid being the one to trip it from then on. It makes you extremely sticky (even without the insane subclass capstone feature at 18.) As for Sentinel being redundant. I wholeheartedly disagree. Hold the Line ADDS to Sentinel, filling in a very crucial gap in defenses that Sentinel sorely lacks. I've seen multiple times across campaigns when an enemy just goes AROUND a character with Sentinel, keeps within their reach, and then attacks a nearby squishy or vulnerable ally. HtL prevents that. Also, Sentinel on a Cavalier is HUGE when dealing with the most common way WotC scales High CR monster damage: multi-attack. All it takes is the Sentinel attack on that first attack against an ally and suddenly EVERY attack after that is at disadvantage because of Unwavering Mark. Cavalier at least deserves a mid-to-high C rank. I'm a menace to my DM and it's absurdly fun.

Honestly, just making battlemaster the lowest B instead of the highest C would make many people so happy Myself included)

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

I suspect you're right, though ultimately, it ends up right between Forge Cleric (higher) and Tempest Cleric (lower) either way.

@grim_glim

3 жыл бұрын

Sounded like it got downgraded because of trap options or trickier decisions. Have there been other classes ranked down for something like this? It's almost like saying "you could pick the wrong animals for wildshape so it could be ranked lower"

@IronShinsDicello

3 жыл бұрын

@@grim_glim True. Something rarely talked about is that while spellcasting itself with careful selection is insanely powerful, it is itself a feature littered with traps! This is especially true for classes and subclasses that have less flexibility with choosing and switching out spells.

@devin5201

3 жыл бұрын

@@IronShinsDicello cough cough True Strike am I right?

@devin5201

3 жыл бұрын

A melee Battle Master with tripping attack and riposte is a finished character which will be effective at just about every level of play, if that's not a B then I don't know what is.

I really thought that the battlemaster would gain a B rank

I usually agree with Treantmonk on many things, but there is NO way the Battlemaster is a C. Yes, it can be played poorly. So can any class. But the Battlemaster opens up so many options for so many play styles. It’s a better arcane archer than the arcane archer. I can’t rank it better than the Echo Knight, but it’s got to be a B ranking.

@aprinnyonbreak1290

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed. Battle master is the gold standard fighter subclass. Most optimized fighters need to answer a specific question of "why am I not just using Battlemaster?" to justify their decicions. Battlemaster is great for reach fighters, characters who dip Fighter, tank, non-combat focused character looking for utility or CC, and more. Battlemaster Fighter is both the instant image I see when I hear "5e Fighter", yet doesn't really pigeonhole that character into any specific playstyle or archetype.

@andrellnogueira

2 жыл бұрын

@@aprinnyonbreak1290'Most optimized fighters need to answer a specific question of "why am I not just using Battlemaster?" to justify their decicions." to the point I feel like maneuvers should be the standard for the Fighter class in itself. It just makes sense lore-wise on what a Fighter is.

@VimyGlide

2 жыл бұрын

@@andrellnogueira for most of 5e's development they actually were, because wizards discovered people hated how simple the fighter was in the first playtests and thought "well i mean, if we give the fighter more to do, they won't be boring, right?". and they were right - in fact, people loved that fighter that just came with maneuvers more then any other class in the playtests it was in (and i believe the other classes in those playtests were rogue, wizard, and cleric, though i might be wrong). ...and then wizards tried to expand maneuvers (which were, again, originally created as the fighter's main gimmick ala the rogue's sneak attack or the paladin's smite)...to other martials...and people got mad about it...and here we are

@andrellnogueira

2 жыл бұрын

@@VimyGlide That's the kind of reason I want a 6e or at least 5.5e. Battle Maneuvers should be to the Martials what spells are for Casters. Everyone should have some, with a slighly different list for each. Even if not all martials, at least all fighters should have Maneuvers. The description of battle master is the same as fighets in general. There was a homebrew that did this, but I don't have it anymore nor can I remember the creator's name, unfortunately.

@Iceblade423

2 жыл бұрын

There aren't even that many terrible options. I think the only option (at least from the originals) that is absolutely terrible all of the time (unless you are fighting kobolds) is Sweeping Attack. Most of the other sub-optimal options are just too situational like Disarm.

The Monk Ranking will probably be the the most entertaining part of the whole series.

@Treblaine

3 жыл бұрын

F tier is going to be pretty crowded soon.

@rubysecules1312

3 жыл бұрын

I can hardly wait

@rogerwilco2

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yes. I really don't understand how the same people wrote Paladin and Wizard, but also wrote the Monk in the same book. And I played a Four Elements Monk during the DnD Next playtest, up to level 16. I knew how poor they were in earlier editions, and wanted to give feedback on the Four Elements Monk so it would be actually good and fun to play. Was I disappointed when the 5E PHB came out.

The gap between battlemaster and arcane archer is too large to be on the same tier. I'd bump AA down to D personally.

@logancuster8035

3 жыл бұрын

I think there’s a pretty strong argument for the Battle Master being low B

@aaronhumphrey3514

3 жыл бұрын

Agreed.

@AdamZollo

3 жыл бұрын

An optimized Arcane Archer can do some pretty cool things these days. Grasping Shot is guaranteed to hit and adds 2d6 every turn they move. Get a way to push the enemy (telekinetic feat, dao dip + crusher, or a maneuver) and you're dealing 4d6 on your turn. Probably 2d6 on their turn. Maybe 2d6 on a few other turns if anyone in your party can force movement. That's great for level 3/4. And the Arcane Archer 7th level ability is quite solid, especially with Sharpshooter. Overall, I think Treantmonk is right. Arcane Archer and Purple Knight may not feel good to play but they're better than they feel.

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

@@AdamZollo arcane archer is okay when you pick few lvls of it and the ability you mentioned and the explosion without saves I wouldn’t play it straight fighter though

@johneubank8543

3 жыл бұрын

If BM gets a "normal" amount of short rests in a gaming day (and of course we can fight over what normal is here), it's easily a B. Sure, a player needs to budget maneuvers, but that's easily done - and BM is good. AA needs basically a short rest between every single fight to be a C, imho. It's a D, really. That's a good point someone made, that BM's power comes early - and yes, that makes BM an easy B.

You gave Arcane Archer a C instead of a D because there are ways to make it work, then immediately gave Battlemaster a C instead of B because there are ways to mess it up. This makes it sound like BM is either a B or AA is a D.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

Note that AA is still more than 20 slots behind BM, so far.

People see the Name "Purple Dragon Knight" and expect to do dragon stuff. i.e. breath weapon analogs, natural armor, flying about or whatever. Instead of some kind of Dragon power fantasy, they get moderate at best team buffing and charisma check improvements. Not Horrible, but high on the "not what I was expecting" list.

@Arisen-kw1hx

3 жыл бұрын

I think about wyvern rider(like ranger drakenwarder but on wyvern)

@FireGamingUltima

2 жыл бұрын

Subclass should be called banneret instead. PDK is just specific group of bannerets. Sounds like what a subclass was called in 3.5 where it had requirements on you having to be within that order.

@luketfer

2 жыл бұрын

@@FireGamingUltima The subclass IS called Banneret when reprinted in Xanathars, it's literally just a rename. That's the non-setting specific name for the subclass. The reason they're called Purple Dragon Knights is because it was listed in probably one of the WORST setting books in Swordcoast Adventurer's guide and Purple Dragon Knights are specific to that setting. SCAG also holds the honor for having some the worst designed subclasses out of any supplemental material with only a few that are actually good.

I knew Echo Knight was going to be A. I was surprised that Rune Knight wasn't as well. The rest laid out about as expected.

mercy monks gonna surprise everyone being a strong D

@mojorn8837

3 жыл бұрын

Honestly. I could see it

@ovbrook3057

3 жыл бұрын

My hot take is that mercy isn't even the best monk

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

@@ovbrook3057 Some people argue Shadow monk is better than Mercy.

@ovbrook3057

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple I wouldn't go that far; PWT is strong but I'd rather just take a PWT bot that can do other things, like a ranger or trickery cleric. I personally value Kensei's ability to attack from range, kite enemies and give bonus action attacks to weapons that normally don't get them over what the mercy monk gets, though both are definitely neck and neck as monk's top 2 imo

@motokuchoma

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple Some people also argue that Monks are better than Paladins

I'm surprised Arcane archer was higher up than Cavalier and Samurai, I can see your reasoning, but I do disagree, especially with Samurai. Sure there's lots of ways to get advantage, but it's still nice to have a guarantueed way to get advantage when you want it at least 3 times in a day. And Wisdom saves are great, makes you more likely to succeed and with indomitable that's even better.

@chrisdin4109

3 жыл бұрын

Samurai is really good and a really good dip if you just want damage. Especially if you want to use elven accuracy.

@dylandugan76

3 жыл бұрын

I always liked the idea of Barbarian 2/ Samurai 18. Reckless Attack is a boon that eventually makes Rapid Strike as reliable as you want it to be and Fighting Spirit changes to a defensive ability, representing a limited number of uses of Reckless Attack with no downside if your hit points run low.

@Treblaine

3 жыл бұрын

There's VERY few ways to get advantage for ALL your ranged attacks, especially in combo with Action Surge. You'd think Samurai would be all about "one excellent sword strike" but it's more of a Legolas build.

@mojin7470

Жыл бұрын

Cavalier is one of the most potent Tank-Builds in the entire game and Samurai is probably the best Fighter in terms of Damage output you can build... How the hell can those 2 even remotely be placed lower than a Trashcan Subclass like Arcane Archer, that hasn't even a single good Feature??? Like what?

@alexanderflack566

7 ай бұрын

@@Treblaine That's Edo period bullshit. For most of their history, samurai were mounted archers first and foremost, with their swords a tertiary weapon at best that they only resorted to once they ran out of arrows and their yari or naginata was broken or lost. The cult of the sword came about because 250 years of peace means that weapons you can carry everywhere become more useful than those you would only take to war.

I'd love to see a series where you take the D tier and lower sub classes and provide a fix for them while maintaining aesthetic that Wizards of the Coast were going for with the sub class.

Treantmonk's soul dies a bit when mentioning next subclass ranking lol

I think it's strange that the main criticism placed on the Battle Master are actually criticisms of player playstyle and not the subclass itself. That doesn't seem like an appropriate criticism in a ranking video. It should definitely be up a rank to B. The Echo Knight is borderline S tier. Like the Eloquence bard which breaks the Social pillar of the game, the Echo Knight has the potential to break the Exploration pillar of the game. With a range of 1000 feet, Echoes can set off every trap. Destroying the Echo doesn't matter cause you summon an unlimited number. You take no damage from it and can scout ahead and notice every obstacle. This also tends to cut into the powers of Find Familiar and Pact of the Chain. If I'm playing a Wizard or Warlock, your niche is basically filled by the fighter. Tho some chain pets have the advantage over Echoes with their invisibility. And then there's the free unlimited 1000 ft teleports.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

The echo shouldn't be setting off most traps.

@fortunatus1

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple Why do you say that? If it can attack creatures then it's solid. It should be able to trip over tripwires. It should trigger pressure plates and fall into hidden pits, etc.

@andrecosta8680

2 жыл бұрын

And the exploration pillar already isnt that much haha

@mojin7470

Жыл бұрын

@@fortunatus1 I don't think that is how its supposed to be managed... Being able to attack from the Echoes position simply means, that you manifest yourself in the Echo to attack, and thus if you want to trigger traps, you would get hurt by those traps yourself... The Echo is not a solid object or thing, but you as a character can partially or completely materialize inside it and take its place... That's how it is was probably meant to be. Everything else doesn't make any sense to me.

@justsomebody5450

Жыл бұрын

@@mojin7470 no echo attack by themselves basically you summon or two and then there's now three fighters fighting and also it can attack it can grab a bow its solid like Matt mercer said the echo is basically alternate reality version of you when you dies but before they die you ripp them out of their time line into yours creating a echo kinda like and echo I think that's what he said at least

Arcane Archer really hurt in the 6-8 expected encounters design of 5E. In a "we only fight once or twice a day" type game I think it's a lot better. Oh, and just switch the 2 per short rest to be one per proficiency bonus or some other scaling factor with your Fighter Level makes it work a bit better.

@mojorn8837

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah it's pretty easy to salvage the subclass, but as is it just doesn't give you enough

@apocrypha5363

3 жыл бұрын

Arcane Archers... don't feel like magical bowmen... and I think that's their biggest problem. They feel like guys with bows, who can act magical a couple of times a day, but are otherwise just mundane. Also, I kinda feel like it doesn't need saving. We already have magical archers: Rangers. And a working Arcane Archer subclass would just end up treading on that class's toes.

@valkurite

3 жыл бұрын

@@apocrypha5363 There are some people over on Giant in the Playground that suggested turning arcane archer into a ranger subclass, specifically to deal with this problem.

@Valwryn00

3 жыл бұрын

The two per short rest is silly, but overall I like this class. The extra ASI/feats help all archer classes, but if you're playing RAW, then no reason to not make an identical character as a battlemaster.

@andrewshandle

3 жыл бұрын

​@@Valwryn00 I think it really depends on the campaign type / DM Style at the table. If you play a game that is more like you see on CR where they rarely have 2 fights in a given gaming day, having 2 magic arrows per short rest (which is really, two per combat) isn't too bad. A nice compromise would be like the Samurai ability that on Initiative Roll you regain one Magic Arrow if you are out. I think it'd mean you'd still get to use at least one per encounter but you can't fire off like 5 in a given combat for balancing. Not being able to use the foundation of a subclass on a combat just feels bad.

Dang I really thought arcane archer would be F

@dylandugan76

3 жыл бұрын

Nah, it's biggest drawbacks are the limited use of the primary ability and the multiple ability score dependence. They're perfectly effective compared to most characters, just nothing impressive. Lots of subclasses are far less functional.

@timeforsuchaword

3 жыл бұрын

I don't think we're going to be seeing any more F ranks outside of monk. Monk and artificer are the only classes which are actually dysfunctional without a good subclass; every other class is working from a stronger base. I wouldn't be surprised if the only other class to dip as low as E is the rogue.

@marcos2492

3 жыл бұрын

I think the Fighter base class gives them a floor of D ranking

@pederw4900

3 жыл бұрын

I really just miss the 3.5/pathfinder prestige class, this subclass is like “you get a cantrip and two other spell-like things per day” while the prestige class had elemental damage on every shot, spell progression, and eventually let you tie aoe spells to your arrows. It felt more like a gish archer than a fighter with a lil magic.

@PlanetOfTheApes999

3 жыл бұрын

I thought it would be a D or E tier. F is really only for all Monk subclasses and the Alchemist, IMO.

I'm just here to add to the number of people who thought Battlemaster should have been ranked at least at a 'B' And I find the logic you use to justify downgrading it to a 'C' somewhat questionable. Take the Wizard for example, don't you have to be careful with spell selection there? By that reasoning you should downgrade all the wizard subclasses because they take a degree of thought to optimize... Just my 2 cents, Love your content keep up the excellent work... 👍

I think those Artificer rankings are looking worse and worse with every video. No way Arcane Archer is better than Artillerist and Armorer. Samurai is much better than you give it credit and find it to be very underrated in general. Most people aren't playing in 8 bajillion encounters a day, and while 3x a day is obviously limiting, Fighting Spirit is not only one of the best self-contained burst damage enablers in the game but also a fantastic defensive boon in the early levels. At level 3, a fighter with 16 con has 31 average hitpoints. Fighting Spirit represents nearly a 50% boost to the virtual total. Yes, this doesn't scale, but considering how highly you are valuing low level abilities I think this deserves more recognition. Considering you don't need to do more than grab a power attack feat to really get your money's worth I think it ranks well on the simplicity to play/optimize scale. Oh and I completely forgot to mention Elegant Courtier in all the excitement. I don't think it comes online too late to be considered one of the best defensive boosts among the various fighter subs. It's always on and protects against a lot of the most debilitating effects in the game. 7th level means it will be online for a good chunk of tier 2 and means the Samurai will be much better prepared for those "epic" levels.

@DaDunge

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah I think that at least armorer got downranked a lot because Treantmonk was disappointed it lost the shield spell. And quite frankly the game would be better off if the shield spell was removed from the game entirely as abused as it is these days

@pedrodarosamello64

3 жыл бұрын

The subclass itself might be better, but I do believe that an Arcane Acher is still a stronger character than a Armorer Artilerist or Armorer

@maxcoto9061

3 жыл бұрын

@@pedrodarosamello64 what is the destinction you are drawing between better subclass and stronger character? For me it's clear that both artificer subclasses eaily beat the Arcane Archer in terms of creating strong and effective characters. Action surge doesn't draw me in like a moth to a flame when the subclass features around it are lacking. I'd rather have spellcasting and good subclass features any day of the week.

@MrAtreties

3 жыл бұрын

TM just drastically undervalues artificer overall. The base artificer kit is WAY better than he gives it credit for. Infusions are super powerful, med armor+shields is very valuable, and Flash of Genius is very generally strong.

@pedrodarosamello64

3 жыл бұрын

@@MrAtreties Man I wish I saw that in Artificers, whenever I read, played or DMed for an Artificer it came as as VERY underwhelming. Maybe I never played with an optimized artificer but the extra featas and attacks of fighter beat it for me.

Samurai really works in the specific instance of playing an elf or half elf in a campaign that gets to level 11 and higher. Hit up a longbow with sharpshooter and elven accuracy or add CBE for a heavy crossbow and suddenly the advantage you're giving yourself every combat is 3 rolls instead of 2 and with 3 attacks you can pretty reliably walk into a fight and turn one pop fighting spirit and action surge and hit with 6 sharpshooter attacks. Extreme tactical burst on anything you wish to declare dead.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

I would be curious to see if CBE + Heavy Crossbow + Samurai ends up being much more effective than CBE + Hand Crossbow + Subclassless Fighter. I'm not sure it would...

@Tuliems

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple I think the power of it lies in the consistency but that's harder to theorycraft. Like, your subclassless example might be higher across a probablity curve of the average adventuring day but the accuracy of a samurai with elven accuracy means that you're going to be able to unload and have really good odds you're going to hit your shots in that turn. I've been in plenty of occasions where a strong opening turn from a damage dealer has completely defined an encounter thanks to putting a boss on the backfoot or outright eliminating a high value target like a caster before they ever get to act and this enables that with regularity. But hard to quantify, hard to theorycraft and I'll admit not a very useful line of thought when dealing with tiers and optimisation.

Supplements really boost the Eldritch Knight, between the sword cantrips and Shadow Blade. The real shame is that, unless you multiclass, the limited set of options ensures that you're always using the same set of spells, and if you get up to higher levels, you have more motivation to multiclass than almost any other fighter to get more spell slots. But it really could use more options-- the best spells for Fighters aren't the blasts.

@nicholaswells4572

3 жыл бұрын

I really think enchantment wizard pairs really well, go to 6th level in that after 3rd level eldritch and then eldritch the rest of the way. That dazing ability per enemy is really good for eldritch knight

@UnkaJosh

3 жыл бұрын

@@nicholaswells4572 War Wizard is very solid, too. The AC/Save bonus (at the cost of only casting a cantrip, which most Fighters can deal with) plus an Initiative bonus is a nice set of boosts, and that only takes two levels of War Wizard, too!

@Finalplayer14

3 жыл бұрын

I think shadow blade got a little worse recently unfortunately. RAW & RAI nowadays you cannot use Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade with Shadow Blade due to the cost, so you'd just be using it with extra attack. You also can only get Shadow Blade on Eldritch Knight at level 8 due to their spellcasting limitation, by that same nature why not play Fighter 5/Wizard 3? It'll give you some really good subclass features and the same if not better spells?

@binolombardi

3 жыл бұрын

@@Finalplayer14 5/3 fighter/wiz gives up 2 ASI’s. An Eldritch Knight getting to level 11 with shadowblade as a spell known is ridiculous. A spell that is cast as a bonus action, leaving your action available, that deals 2d8+mod per successful attack the fighter makes is ridiculous on its own for a fighter. But the spell also gives situational advantage on all those attacks. Shadowblade on an Eldritch Knight is competitive with and sometimes beats sharpshooter/greatweapon builds. It’s damage doesn’t suffer nearly as much as those other builds when fighting high AC creatures, which is when the damage is probably most needed. The new hexblood gives hex/disguise self as basically known spells and a free casting of each, along with other spell replicating feature. This shores up an Eldritch knights limited slots quite a bit. Hex gives a decent 1st level slot use force damage that also imposes disadvantage on a particular attributes checks. Lasts for quite a while which stretches out the slot use. The disadvantage can be good for a grappler Knight, or it can try to focus on a mental score to affect a casters checks for counterspell/dispel magic/telekinesis.

@Puffinbar

3 жыл бұрын

I played an Eldritch Knight variant human with the fey touched feat. It felt great and shored up a lot of the spell selection. Choosing Bless or Hex gives you something to concentrate on till you get shadowblade. Hex is fun to assist in grapple checks (if you’re str based). Then the free use of misty step and additional casts later is so nice for the limited spells known.

Arcane archer always made me sad. (Hand crossbow) Bladesinger and Valor Bard just do the same but better.

@aprinnyonbreak1290

2 жыл бұрын

I mean, any sane DM is letting the Arcane Archer make magic whatever-the-hell-they-want, right? Magic Javelins to Along Came Zeus some punks, magic Sling to make the alchemist even more upset, magic blowpipe to get some Lizardman hoodoo flowing, magic boomerang for the character from Space Australia. And DM that sticks to the arrow limitation 100% deserves my character Orlando Bloom, the Elf. From back when Elf was a class.

I don't think the Psi Fighter is even close to the battlemaster. The abilities are little weaker, you need INT to scale them and you only get them back after a long rest.

@KaitlynBurnellMath

3 жыл бұрын

Only getting the abilities back on a long rest is fine when you just get more uses. At level 10 it's like...5 battlemaster dice per short rest, vs 8 psi dice per long rest (plus an additional 1 psi dice per short rest, plus some abilities that can be used for free every short rest without expending psi dice). Psi Warrior ends up with slightly more resources if you only take one short rest (10 dice to 10 dice, but psi warrior gets 4 free uses of abilities without expending psi dice). Agree on the INT dependence being an issue. As for the abilities being worse...at level 3, definitely. At level 7, Psi-warrior gets a version of Trip Attack, and Psi-powered leap is pretty good. These are similar to maneuvers. Technically at very high level Psi Warrior gets abilities better than any maneuver (Bullwark of Force at level 15).

@jimboxx7

3 жыл бұрын

@@KaitlynBurnellMath Thanks for the thorough rebuttal. The only thing I can add is that I personally don't evaluate anything past level 12 since most of my gameplay (95%+) is below that level. Also, I usually expect 2 shorts rests per long rests. But I know that it's not the case for a lot of people.

I love that you're getting more comfortable doing these videos. Getting a little showmanship in there now. It's like watching the wizard get proficiency in Perform. XD You're written guides were filled with so much panache and sass and now you're starting to bring that to the camera. 😀

Loved the video as usual, but a little thing id like to point out: when ranking Battle Master, you considered it came short of B tier because although it could potentially be there, it required a certain degree of strategy, not just using manouvers to get a bit of extra damage. But isn’t it like that with other classes? I wouldn’t say Wizards are C tier because you need to know when to use the spells. I get what you’re saying, but aren’t we assuming the class is being played at least properly even if not optimised?

I feel like the battle master manoeuvres should have been part of the base fighter. Casters have so many more options, in and out of combat. That said, I played a lot of fighters in 2nd Ed. Their THAC0 went down every level.

@ZMSKfullpower

2 жыл бұрын

Fighter deserve manoeuvres as much as warlock his eldrith invocations, yes I agree. I will even say more, both Battle master and Champion should have been part of the base fighter. I'm not sure but it looks for me that "wizard of the coust" have problem designing the class that is not the caster, not sure where the problem lies because I have whole bunch of ideas for fighter and I homebrowed this class already with my friends.

@matthewharding584

Жыл бұрын

@@ZMSKfullpower I have put the battle master maneuvers into the fighter chassis along with the know you’re enemy because it’s just a really cool thematic ability fighters should have. I did leave the champion out since I thought that would make it too busted but I’m currently trying to come up with ways to do it. I think in my rough draft, I have the critical coming in later

The first class to get unlimited teleports was shadow Monk. Yes, It was limited where could teleport but so is the echo Knight. Great video!

Slasher kinda works in place of sentinel for cavaliers They get to restrict their opponents at a much lower lvl without having all the anti-sinergies of sentinel And why would anyone not build champion as a critfisher though? Sword and board seem like the worst way to use your extra crits.

@flimpeenflarmpoon1353

3 жыл бұрын

Cause champion is the newbie class so they aren't gonna optimise

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

@@flimpeenflarmpoon1353 yeah, that seems to be the argument against battlemaster and champion

@andrecosta8680

2 жыл бұрын

@@flimpeenflarmpoon1353 zealot barb + champiom x + gwm

I have found some interesting synergy between 'Know your Enemy', and the 9th level Swashbuckler skill, 'Panache'. Its for those tense moments, where you are actually able to get a major villainous NPC to lower their guard for a meaningful conversation, while you are observing their strengths & weaknesses. It can make for some cinematic moments that otherwise wouldn't happen. Its a shame it takes so many levels to get there, but it can also be employed against more powerful enemies regardless.

@Puffinbar

3 жыл бұрын

Once our battlemaster watched an ancient black dragon for like 3 minutes or so as it terrorized a caravan and “played with its food”. (We were hiding trying not to get TPKd) Really sweet narrative moment and really helped when we leveled up and were WAY more prepared to take her on.

@pranakhan

3 жыл бұрын

@@Puffinbar That's a great narrative example! I can almost hear the procedural narrative playing aloud in the battlemaster's head. Dig it, thanks for sharing

One note, it's a skill or a language for a cavalier, not both.

It's weird having Arcane Archer ranked higher than Samurai. Surely 4 attacks with advantage at level 5 is better than modifying ONE of your ranged attacks to MAYBE do something extra if they fail a save that depends on an "off-stat". Both have the "long rest recharge" limit but Samurai just has more uses.

@Treblaine

3 жыл бұрын

Okay, this Samurai ranking is bugging me valuing Fighting Spirit so low. Let's say Eldritch Knight picked Tasha's Hideous Laughter except had special boosts to the spell: - Infinite range rather than 30ft - Bonus action to cast rather than Action to cast - Target always fails the save even if the EK has low int - It works on all enemies regardless of their int score - instead of knocking them prone it gives advantage on ranged attacks - You can shift the spell to affect another creature if the creature you're attacking dies THAT is what you're getting 3 times per day with Samurai except it's not a spell. That's better than the best spell Eldritch Knight could cast to enhance their fighter features and it's incredible synergy with your fighter features which is potentially massive "nova strikes" especially with something like Sharpshooter. Easily matching Paladins smiting. You can only expect 2 short rests between each long rest, so that's +2 replenishments of your Action Surge on top of the 1 after a long rest and you only want to use Fighting Spirit with Action Surge so 3 per long rest is a natural limit.

I love this series. Thank you!!

i wish they reworked arcane archer arrows to pb times per short rest

@jacobjensen7704

3 жыл бұрын

I wish it just scaled like the Battlemaster maneuvers.

@CheefChaos

3 жыл бұрын

If it was 2 magic Arrows X proficiency then it is absolutely on the same level as BM.

@johndevlin9225

3 жыл бұрын

I think proficiency bonus +1 is probably a good place for them. They're stronger than manoeuvres, but weaker than runes, so starting at 3/rest feels about right.

@Votuse

3 жыл бұрын

Being the DM I think scaling with proficiency and refreshing on short rest would be good enough. 2 is laughable

@benjaminkowal7310

3 жыл бұрын

I wish they reworked warlock and sorcerer to get pb spell slots per short rest too....

I'm really enjoying this video series! Keep up the great work.

Battle master and arcane archer in the same tier is a punch in the eye

The Cavalier's Warding Maneuver can also be used when you are hit by an attack. The discussion only covered if an ally is hit. Knowing that it works when you are hit as well, means it works great with Sentinel instead of conflicting with it. It still would be nice to be recovered on a short rest though.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

It says if the creature does damage to someone other than you.

@Snarkhunter98

3 жыл бұрын

@@TreantmonksTemple I'm referring to the 7th level Warding Maneuver, which triggers if you or another creature you can see is hit by an attack. Thanks for taking the time to respond!

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

@@Snarkhunter98 Ah, you're right! I thought you were talking about the level 3 feature.

Thanks for the fun video! The result that surprised me was Samurai at D, but after thinking about it, I realized that my own positive experiences with Samurai come at higher levels, beyond the scope of what these videos focus on. It seems like a reason why so many people are upset about certain subclass rankings is because they expect the subclasses to be strictly compared against each other. What you’re doing instead is looking at how the subclass + the core class functions in the greater scheme of the game, and rating based on that. That’s why we see so many subclasses at C ranking: with some notable outliers, a number of classes (such as say, Cleric) are hard to screw up even with an underwhelming subclass. Placing Battle Master and Arcane Archer at C tier isn’t the same as saying they’re basically the same, but rather that - if you’re playing a Fighter archer anyway, the difference between playing the two subclasses is not as dramatic as some find it to be. Put into that perspective, I don’t disagree - but it does seem to run counter to some peoples’ expectations for a Subclass ranking video.

Oh how I've waited for this video. Thanks for creating it.

Best way to capitalize on the Champion's crit range is to be a half orc and take the Orcish Fury feat which gets doubled on a crit. 5d12 crit damage as early as level 4.

Thank you for these videos. I find them to be very informative.

These have all been great. I even look forward to the Monk list. Excited for all the upcoming list. I take your word as gospel Mr. God Wizard.

The time for the D and F ranks to swell will soon be upon us!

I have a farmer Fighter whom I've been going back and forth on about her subclass. I feel like PDK/Banneret is more fitting, but I liked the Cavalier as an option better. Your descriptions of the two subclasses convinced me to go with Banneret, so thank you.

Been stoked to watch this video for days

One good thing about the Eldritch Knight is that fighters get CON save proficiency and usually have a good CON score, meaning you can rely on concentration spells pretty well.

The arcan archer should have been given spell slots like the eldrich knight, but can only use those slots on the arcan shots and the arcan shots be designed like spells with up casting options. This handles a lot of scaling issues.

@xdecatron2985

3 жыл бұрын

Pretty sure what you’re describing is a Ranger…

@zraal3759

3 жыл бұрын

@@xdecatron2985 except for not, as implemented and described in DnD. That is like listening to the description of the eldrich knight and stating that is just a paladin. Though, I can see where you are coming from, there are similarities, but only in that they are ranged focus, though ranger does not have to be, and have spells or in this case sudo-spells that use slots.

@thatguynamedgabestyfy8348

2 жыл бұрын

I would have Love this and would have loved the Arcane archer

@alexanderflack566

7 ай бұрын

@@xdecatron2985 The ranger can't make a bow attack to deliver a spell; they have to choose one or the other. Incidentally, as I recall, AA back in 3.5e did cast spells by shooting arrows, which allowed them to use otherwise short-ranged spells at longbow range. I wish they had done something similar with it in this edition, but it would probably have needed to be its own class.

So you put a class that has only 2 uses for it's ability that don't scale (AA) at the same level as one who has twice the number of uses that do scale (BM). That makes no sense. Battlemaster should have been a strong B.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

BM is currently ranked 17th of the 50 subclasses reviewed so far. AA is ranked 39th of 50.

@Wade8419

3 жыл бұрын

2 things being the sqme tier doesnt make them equal. Look at how far apart they are on the full chart. You say strong B tier, but how can you put it above the stuff alreqdy in B tier on this list. You cant even put it above the lowest B tier on the list, the forge cleric. If it was to get B, it would be very low B.

I LOVE psi warrior! It can be reflavored in a multitude of ways, not only that, but the various use of psi energy along with its free uses allow great versatility on the battlefield. Plus the fact the psi leap at 7th level doubles your speed, means with action/action surge/hasted action dashing with your caster bud giving you haste means nobody can simply run your blade!

I actually played a oneshot where an Echo Knight was allowed He broke the entire thing because the echos are immune to basically all spells RAW and most of the encounters were spell-based. I'd argue Echo Knight deserves S Rank in some scenarios because of just how few things can actually hurt the echos RAW Context: the echos are considered objects and pretty much all spells or spell-like abilities specify that they must target a creature. So you *have* to make normal melee/ranged attacks against it. Even if you hit, the Knight can just, pop up a new one with no limiter.

Eldritch Knight may be limited by spells known but unlocks a fantastic category of magic items: Spell Scrolls They can use all the "target self" spells like Disguise Self. Find Familiar does not need to consume one of your few spells known, you can use a scroll to get a Familiar. You can far more effectively apply buffs like Mage Armor and Jump to yourself. These also bypass low-int as a Level 1 spell scroll that costs only 25gp has a +5 spell attack bonus or DC13 save, as if you had an Int score of 16-17.

I can already feel it. Arcane Archer and Samurai will be hella controversial. I kinda agree with the Samurai ranking but IMO Arcane Archer should definitely be D-tier as well. Some might also disagree with Rune Knight being better than Battle Master but I actually fully agree on that one.

@Zakon673

3 жыл бұрын

Arcane Archer looks mediocre until you realize it's the best class in the game for playing an archer character, and archers with the Archery fighting style and Sharpshooter feat are fairly consistent damage dealers from all ranges, so anything you can put on top of that to make it more effective is inherently going to be decent. Then on top of that it's a Fighter, so unlike other damage dealers they aren't fragile, in fact they can switch to a melee weapon and hold the front line when necessary. Arcane Archer fighters are spectacular for protecting the group's casters, because they can stay near them and swap to melee to protect the casters if anything gets close. I played a year long campaign that went from level 4 to 20 and had an Arcane Archer and I actually did not allow her to pick Sharpshooter because I think that the damage boost it gives on top of the accuracy boost from the Archery fighting style makes it too good, and despite that she was still effective. Keyword being effective, not overpowered or underpowered. So, that sounds like a C-tier class to me, at least.

@xandermichael836

3 жыл бұрын

@@Zakon673 The only thing I disagree with here is limiting what features people can pick lol. Do you also limit what spells caster classes can pick?

@jareddavidson6654

3 жыл бұрын

@@Zakon673 A battlemaster archer is a better archer than an arcane archer.

@azuraben5128

3 жыл бұрын

@@Zakon673 A battlemaster does it better and more consistent, with more helpful options to boot.

@Zakon673

3 жыл бұрын

@@xandermichael836 Yeah, anything that breaks the action economy, like the Conjure line of spells where you can flood the battlefield with weak creatures that slow combat to a crawl while still being fairly effective due to occupying space and weight of attacks with 5e's bounded accuracy system. I don't allow Greatweapon Master and Sharpshooter because of how overwhelmingly strong they are at early levels, easily capable of 1-2 shotting most enemies, with their downsides negated by things like the Archery fighting style and Barbarian Reckless Attack. As martials start to scale poorly into late levels, I invent cool magic weapons for the party to find that compensates for not having those feats. Because to me, part of the appeal of playing a martial character is finding that amazing weapon, your version of Excalibur or the Master Sword.

A friend of mine has made great use of a unarmed fighting Grung Rune Knight. Growing large then grappling poisoned does while we take out the small fry has been very fun to watch.

I was looking forward to this episode. Interesting rankings and more or less fair. Next episode is going to be glorious for all the wrong reasons.

Slight correction there, first class that got unlimited teleportation is the monk with phb Shadow monk.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

That's true I suppose, I guess I didn't think of it because of the hefty lighting restriction.

Fighter subclasses have a respectable spread through the ranks, with the class carrying it in a lot of cases. It is the first class he has reviewed which has more than four ability score increases across 20 levels, which in a game with feats can provide a lot of versatility after bringing strength or dex to 20. Overall, another great and informative video.

@Booklat1

3 жыл бұрын

Even before maxing your stats you can get some decent half feats. Fighters are interesting from lvls 4 to 8

@comfortablegrey

3 жыл бұрын

@@Booklat1 Yeah! You can feel like a Jedi knight without being a psi warrior, thanks to magic initiate, telepathic and telekinetic.

Two years ago, when my current D&D campaign got started, my GM let me take the UA Brute as a subclass for my Fighter. I have never regretted that decision. The solid extra damage is very nice but the extra 1d6 to saving throws is a godsend! Being able to take another fighting style at L10 too was sweet. I've done my best to pile on three things on my fighter from the onset; damage output, armour class, and saving throw excellence. The main job of a fighter (especially as I am the ONLY front line fighter in our group) is to hold the front and NOT go down! AC and saving throw acumen is the only way to handle that. My fighter is a mountain dwarf wielding a dwarven war axe and shield, having taken Duelist and Defense as fighting styles. He is currently wearing a cloak of protection and a ring of protection +2. He is a very hard nut to crack.

Just found an subscribed: Love the content. I would love to see a Let's Fix video on the Fighter Champion. I agree with your assessment in it's ranking and it breaks my heart to do so. Even thou I thinks its better the Purple Knight IMHO. Love the work.

i expected my favorite subclass the champion to get shit-on and it is well deserved xD But let me tell you about the fun-factor of the champion: be a half-orc and use a D12 weapon, now your crits FEEL truly special Get GWM and on your turn you have a 10% (~19% with advantage) chance to hit regardless of AC. My last session i dealt 89 damage during my turn with one shove to knock prone, action surge and 4 attacks because i crit (and killed) at level 5 the champion is not the best, it's somewhat weak but I'm having so much fun dealing massive damage every once in a while

Honestly, I wish that battlemaster maneuvers were just part of the Fighter's base kit instead of Action Surge. Action surge is good sure, but maneuvers just allow for more versatility and interesting character building

Thank you for acknowledging the Purple Dragon Knight.

Awesome! These keep on making my day awesome haha Thank you!!

Subclasses that require the dump stat for scaling just suck. Why do clerics, paladins and warlocks get to convert their spell stat to their main stat, but fighters need int for eldritch, rune and psi? Why not str or con? Choose between having bad stat distribution and good abilities or good stats and bad abilities. At least let it be a stat that having a high modifier is actually worthwhile for other things, like CHA or WIS. Especially rune knights, giants aren't geniuses of INT, but the class copying them has to be? What am I going to do with INT? Roll to think about why my character sucks so bad?

I wish Psi warrior got a few spells they could cast with their psi, like detect thoughts, clairvoyance, etc. But I think their combination of being able to reduce damage and move allied creatures without having to multiclass to get it is vastly under rated

It seems like several prominent DnD channels are all chatting about Cleric and Fighter subclasses immediately after you posted your videos. That makes you a trendsetting Treeantmonk!

Purple Dragon Knight's Rallying Cry can't be used on zero health (unconscious) allies because they can't see or hear you. Zero HP is where you need healing the most.

48:16 when I choose a subclass I pick those that benefit myself and my allies, I like a lot the necromancer wizard, many see them as a selfish subclass, but I use the minions I create as a barrier between the enemies and my allies, tell me you would go past a horde of 20 zombies and 13 skeletons with shortsword equipped, and 11 with shortbow, giving half cover to my allies and me, and the skeletons doing damage from behind, so, ok the purple dragon knight helps my allies, not me, but essentially I do things that I would normally do and my allies get some help when needed, I don't despise it, once I played it, and when going into combat I always thought: "if I had chosen this, this and this, I could've done a lot more"

In my experience with the game if you pick a more modest subclass the DM is more prone to letting you get away with nonsense.

We have messaged before and I really like your explanation for echo knight being your favorite it's like 2nd for me slightly only to rune knight still

A fix for Arcane Archer would be spells like Eldritch Knight. It would have a smaller spell list with a more ranged-combat focus, but it would let you use spell slots to cast those spells or to use your arcane shots. It would also let you upcast Arcane Shots before absurdly high levels

Next video: "garbage, garbage, garbage. Now this, I love" gestures toward Paladins

Echo Knight getting much deserved love. Arcane archer is the most disappointing subclass because it has so much potential, its so sad they just didnt scale it properly - i mean level 15 getting more arrows...come on, i cant believe they didnt see the flaw in this design because the magical arrows are pretty good, just wish we got more of them.

@agilemind6241

2 жыл бұрын

Seconded, if it scaled at the same levels as Combat Superiority it would be a fine subclass.

I personally think people were expecting the Purple Dragon Knight to be like the Warlord from 4e but comes up short and thus is reviled for it.

@agilemind6241

2 жыл бұрын

The concept for Purple Dragon Knight is good, the problem is that it fails to deliver on it - the features are actually hard to use effectively because of their limitations. Whereas Champion is just boring features but because they are always on, get used enough to be noticable and the simplicity of it is actually great for new players.

I see Zealot is back at the bottom of the C Tier on the video, but NOT in the High Res list!! Thanks for making the High Res version! I'm getting older, and my eyes can only make out so much.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

The high res version is the correct one.

Echo Knight shows what happens when you make a homebrew class into official content. It's not merely unbalanced (unlimited teleports!) it's also written in a way that allows for broad interpretations (can you move an echo up in the air? Sure, why not!) Personally, I love the flavor, but IMO it's really as much S-tier as your other rankings in that tier. It can overshadow other classes that are known for mobility, and for scouting (rogues and wizards with Arcane Eye etc) and the language is just wishy-washy enough that I can see a table dissolving into an argument just to address what exactly the echo is actually capable of.

@UncleMerlin

Жыл бұрын

Its really sad that it takes being an echo knight to make Fighter powerful enough to be as good as wizards and clerics though.

@eraz0rhead

Жыл бұрын

@@UncleMerlin Heh. I think 5e's class rebalance, while not as "balanced" as 4e, did put some decent limits on the spell-slinger classes. In 3rd edition, it was a nightmare. Concentration alone makes the cheese of "The Casters Buff Everyone before we enter the room" a non-issue. And the Battlemaster has been quite an excellent mini-controller, with decent DPR, for most of 5e. I feel like 5e's Fighter has some excellent options to be competitive with the casters, even into the higher levels, on straight DPR. But as in every edition, they generally fall down in the other Pillars (where the Rogue, and especially Bard reign supreme). And like in 3rd edition, Fighters are multi-class friendly (for non-casters anyway), which makes dipping rogue tempting to get some skill expertise.

Regarding the Samurai: how else can fighters easily get advantage on attacks, especially if they're not multi classing?

@ChristnThms

3 жыл бұрын

T E A M W O R K

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

The easiest without multiclassing? Probably being a kobold.

@JonathanAwesomeify

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChristnThms Such as? I mean yeah, if you have someone cast Hold Person or Monster that's great, but it might not work so I wouldn't call it easy, at least not as easy as Fighting Spirit. And my groups don't use the optional flanking rule.

@salihnu

3 жыл бұрын

Shove prone? Battlemaster maneuver like Trip attack? Teamwork? Would you really trade all the battlemaster maneuvers for an advantage on demand?

@geckothegreene

3 жыл бұрын

I think Samurai is actually pretty good at a table without the flanking rule or other party member providing an easy mechanic for advantage. Not crazy, but OK- at least better than cavalier. I actually think Samurai is the best "new player" fighter- there's nothing too complicated with fighting spirit, but it is a fairly meaty boost, and limited enough in uses to help the player learn resource management and table tactics in order to maximize it. Simple to use, fairly high floor even when not optimized, with abilities good for learning the game and increasing engagement (which is the biggest area the champion fails at as a "new player" fighter).

Nice call out on the Purple Dragon Knight. Preconceptions can lead to careless analysis, and I agree with your point on players being biased against a subclass that doesn't directly benefit themselves.

Havent read through all the this in the comments yet, but regarding the cavalier the mark doesnt end if they move away, only the disadvantage effect outside of 5ft range. And hold the line has the same affect of sentinel, so basically sentinel for free. The within your reach is even better, so they cannot move around you to hitnsomeone behind you. The limited use long rest hurts but at least the marking function still works.

I think you're nuts to only give Battlemaster a C-rank. Even just using precision, a Battlemaster is turning 6 to 8 misses into hits every day. With SS or GWM, this is just plain great and has made them a mainstay in the most optimized damage builds around. You're dunking on them because they are complicated? As opposed to picking and applying a tailored list of spells? I mean, I know you sneer at anything that does damage, but come on man. A-Rank, easy.

@alcatraz7

3 жыл бұрын

This is also relative to all subclasses in the game, not just fighter. Martial classes just aren’t as good as casters especially full casters in almost all cases

@Faircrow

3 жыл бұрын

I could agree with a B, A is just a stretch

@ethanlocke3604

3 жыл бұрын

B yes, A no

@mordet2

3 жыл бұрын

even more so when arcane archer is also C-tier. crazy to put both in the same tier.

@mikebieser4175

3 жыл бұрын

Out of curiosity, when you play a battle master, how many misses are you actually turning into hits every day? It’s a somewhat complicated question. First, what threshold of missing do you generally expend a maneuver for? Missing by 1,2,3, something higher? How many attacks are you making a day? For easy analysis, I’m going to assume you make 40 attacks per day. Two of those attacks would miss by one, two of those would miss by two, two would miss by three, two would miss by four, etc. if you decide to blow all your maneuvers on just damage trying to turn these misses into hits, you’d generate an extra 6.5 hits on average. Assuming you’re CBE and SS, as well as that enemies have AC 14, (a lot of assumptions, I know, but a KZread comment isn’t the best place for extended analysis), you were already getting 20 hits. So, the value of maneuvers if you exclusively used them for damage is roughly a ~33% damage increase(depending on your assumptions made, this number will change a lot, but 33% is a decent ballpark). Which is good, don’t get me wrong; but it isn’t that transformative. A rune knight can invoke a cloud rune to turn an enemy crit into your crit. An echo knight can be in multiple places at the same time, locking down enemy movement and teleporting at will. Even an eldritch knight can pull off the fog cloud/blindsight or darkness/devil’s sight combinations. All of these allow the fighter to do something beyond just extra damage. I can’t speak for Treantmonk, but I imagine he knows battlemasters are standard for damage builds, I just don’t think Treantmonk is that impressed by pure damage builds.

Actually a little surprised you didn't bring up the Samurai's capstone feature though it is highly unlikely that anyone would reach it in any campaign.

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

That's why.

So do you think it's worth doing eldritch knight one handed to be able to cast shield? Or do you just suck it up and take war caster?

Hi Treantmonk, I don’t know if it changes the overall power ranking for Eldritch Knight, but one other unwritten feature of Eldritch knights is that they have access to feats and items that have spellcasting (in general) or access to the the wizard spell list as a prerequisite. For example an EK can cast spells from Wizard scrolls and use items like the Wand of Binding or Wand of Polymorph.

Huzzah!!

Alot of these fighters need some TLC due to the absolute power creep of wizard and other classes.(looking at you Bladesinger) Could make the sub classes much better by letting them use their features a number of times per Prof or the Mod.

@DaDunge

3 жыл бұрын

Problem with proficiency number of times per long rest is it keeps scaling with multiclassing.

@xandermichael836

3 жыл бұрын

@@DaDunge that would be the intent. Alot of other classes have that option already as well. Frankly since their core skeleton is "attack more" I'd think it more fair to let them get all 4 attacks by level 15 rather than 20. (Monks can attack 4 times by level 5 and it scales)

@claytongrey988

3 жыл бұрын

But then people could just put a dash of fighter in thier bladesinger for a super wombo combo

@xandermichael836

3 жыл бұрын

@@claytongrey988 eh they would still be limited spells still cost an action, and a 7 level dip in fighter would be a fair trade for a wizard who becomes a poor wizard haha

@DaDunge

3 жыл бұрын

@@xandermichael836 That makes not multiclassing mean you simply lose out of things rather than a tradeoff.

I am loving this series!!!

One thing to note, a D on most tests is still a Passing Grade. Also, even with an F tier subclass, it's still possible to have fun, but it depends on the group, and the DM - had a Dwarf in the group I was in (don't as what class, as I don't know, doubt the dwarf did either - crazy story involving negative modifiers on all their soft stats) who was always having issues with his dice rolls, but every so often got lucky (like when he was one of three who rolled Nat20s when the DM called for a Skill Check using 3 separate skills - my Champion Fighter got one, the Half-Orc Barbarian got one, and then the Dwarf - and later, to cross a contaminated river, when the half-orc barbarian (who, along with half of the party, was sick) used his Boots of Levitation to help the party to cross (with himself and those he carried having to do Constitution checks to avoid getting sick/er - tiefling assassin failed said check, getting doubly sick), he decided to simply chop down a large and tall tree (and passing on the Con check to avoid a second type of sickness) at which point, he, and the other party members (who'd been lucky enough to avoid sickness by this point), basically used it as a bridge.

Battle Master maneuvers need updating to account for the fact there's an unarmed fighting style now.

@dylandugan76

3 жыл бұрын

Don't forget, unarmed strikes ARE melee weapon attacks by the rules, making them eligible for a variety of maneuvers. Check the Sage Advice.

@antongrigoryev6381

3 жыл бұрын

Yup. All maneuvers work with weapon attacks or melee weapon attacks, and Unarmed Strikes count as these. If it specifically required a weapon, it would be a "melee attack with a weapon".

Champion, Orc, Piercer. That's how crits really matter. With a rapier, crits will be 4d8+Strength mod. In your list, champion is underrated and arcane archer is overrated, the rest is ok. That's all I have to say.

@Arbraxius

3 жыл бұрын

Shitty subclass, subpar race, shitty feat. That's all I have to say.

@Blobby3822

3 жыл бұрын

@@Arbraxius Shitty subclass : You might be right but I disagree anyway Subpar race : Not really Shitty feat : Certainly not I will say no more.

@Blobby3822

3 жыл бұрын

@@sharkforce8147 I have turned my +1d8 every 10 attacks (crit on 19-20, not only 20) to +3d8 every 10 attacks (+1d8 being an orc and +1d8 being a piercer). With 3 (5th) then 4 (11th) attacks per turn with my dual wielder, that's not so bad. That's 1 crit every 2-3 rounds if I have not advantage. And I can do that all day long, I don't need resources. I don't say it's the best character ever, I just say it's not so bad.

@Blobby3822

3 жыл бұрын

@@sharkforce8147 I don't care, I was not talking about the battlemaster.

@KaitlynBurnellMath

3 жыл бұрын

TBH there just isn't a build that makes champion stand out for damage. Half orc with piercer has pretty good crits, but champion still doesn't crit often enough to really take advantage of those crits. 5% chance to roll a 19 specifically. The gap between critting and not critting with your rapier build is 3d8 which is 13.5. So...13.5x0.05 = 0.67 damage per attack, on average. Two attacks after level 5 makes that 1.34 damage per round that is being gained over other subclasses with the same half-orc piercer build. Three attacks after level 11 makes that 2 damage per round being gained over other subclasses with the same build. Level 3 fighter subclass abilities just...usually give more damage than that. Rune Knight with zero runes, using only its d6 damage die from growing big deals like...3.5 damage per round with its level 3 ability. PDK at level 11 makes...one rogue get a reaction sneak attack giving the party around 20 extra damage per short rest, and has an additional 30ish healing. Any of the fighters that boost accuracy turning a miss into a hit on a great weapon master or sharpshooter attack adds around 20 damage every time they turn a miss into a hit. 1.3-2 damage per round is still not really where it should be relative to other level 3 fighter abilities. (And if you're not a half-orc, and don't have piercer, the numbers drop down, of course).

I know for me I never get to multiclass but it's neat to see the ideas talked about for power.

great! can't wait for monks, ordered the nose plugs already!!

@TreantmonksTemple

3 жыл бұрын

Good planning!

@davidc9005

3 жыл бұрын

Played a monk once … I was up and down more than the Grand ole Duke of York